Palmer Luckey on Arsenal-1, Trump, US Manufacturing, Tariffs, & Heretical Thoughts
01:29:19 Share

I think that i'm trying to take advantage of this moment in time where people seem to broadly understand the national security is important and that even if you don't like me, can at least recognize that are doing things that are good for the.

He is actually A J hottest journalist.

AmErica would run out of weapons in about three weeks. That seems pretty shot.

Very bitter about IT. Many of those same people are the people who are literally calling for me to be fired. Homer work, where they offered a bounty to anyone who could track me down, we'd be lucky. And boeing, on the collaborative combat craft selection you can do at this way. O here, here's one that's pretty horrendous.

What's up, guys? We have A A special episode of the podcast today with the legendary palmer. Lucky friend of the party is been on before.

I'm excited to happen back on today is the founder of energy, of course, and the center of oculus. But palmer, what? Pod, of course.

welcome to have me. IT feels a little weird to be so old that i'm, that i'm the legendary palmer. Lucky I got a foot in the grave, only, only a beat to go before I pass. Intelligent and myth.

Yeah, you're gna get to bio pic soon.

Oh, man, you know, people are always reaching out to me about that. And i've always told them that the second that you get a biopic c uh, your career inevitably goes downhill. You get your bio pic at the peak of your career or or after your irrelevant and I I mean, look at Justin bieber.

You know, he did a Justin beever never say never. And I was, I was all down hill from there. That's actually I have I mean.

we have a new media questions and he eventually to get to, we like a pack episode I want to get to. We got arsenal that we have talked about. I want to talk about manufacturing generally.

We're going to talk about, um your game boy, that you do IT have invented. We talk a little bit about IT, uh, that summer that we were at. I want to get back into that in poke's, uh, as well as the media, of course.

But first at the very top, did we have two astronauts stuck in space at the moment. So we had have two astronauts stuck in space for about two months. This is the boeing star liner, the company responsible for the mission delay failure.

I don't even know what's called IT at this point. Ah they are unable to bring the astronauts home now. yeah. These guys have been since being awarded their contract with government space access, flown countless missions, while boeing deliverables have been delayed for years.

And now whatever this is like space x, uh, you guys are also competing with huge and convince for government contracts. I'm wondering what is your take on the astronauts just generally? And then I want to talk about funding from these income. And I wondering how much funding are the income securing today right now. But I think it's .

helpful to look at IT from two perspectives. One is the lens through which I see everything. Um how would the press handle this if the tables return and of course, like what we can know if you like elon musk smokes a joint while astronaut s career goes up in smoke, you know do be crazy uh and so I I can't help feel like a is interesting in to see not just the government but also the entire media apparatus more of us running like an interference campaign for you know oh like like I I don't know if you seen these stories like oh, it's an unexpected a boon for the other teams on the I, S, S. Having extra hands to help with their experiments.

And oh, that are the unexpected benefits of all that we're learning from having more people than beds on I S. S. Right now.

And you'd never see the other way around. So but all you would get going to move past that. The second video.

I just I know if they were elon, listen, I mean, follow this stuff pretty closely in the media. IT would be straight up twenty four, seven coverage about how elon musk ego specifically stranded two astronauts in space. We would have twenty four hour for sure, cost in headlines.

I mean, I remember when I gave nine thousand dollars this and clinton group, gizmodo launched a week, a weekly peace called palmer watch, where they offered a bounty to anyone who could track me down, uh, regarding this small political contribution. And they ran that from september of two thousand sixteen until february of two thousand seventeen. And and like and like, i'm not to celebrate at all.

Like I mean, I think you have twenty four, seven. I think you'd have dedicated pieces. You have people on the on the hashtag space standing a beat like IT would I would be they'd be interviewing the families of the people.

They'd be talking to people. Oh yeah. Rick always was a little class phobic. And he, one time I was late to pick them up for a ride, and he had a breakdown and in college. And I, T, I bet that's coming back to him now because of elon mask. I mean.

do you think that the elon musk, how are you want to talk about the funding of IT in the contract situation? But but do you think that the fact that elon must is potentially the only lifeline for these guys? The reason that the by administration is dragon, the speed that seems like giving in line a huge Victory right now in the modal election would be pretty I don't politically, I I don't be damaging to biden, but I would certainly not be helpful so .

that actually the second lens I was I was going to say the first is the media lens. The second is the government perspective lens. Um and so like there's kind of A A straw man and a steel man version of this.

Um I think I think it's if you kind of want to make like the the steel man case for why the government should be waiting and hoping the star liner star liner works and that all this goes, it's they want more competition. They want more than one provider. And yes, they would love IT.

If the two providers competing were both competent, they would love IT if there are three providers that were competent. And in a world where there is space sex, another space sex and another space sex. And boeing, boeing obviously would not be getting the benefit of the doubt the way that they are.

But as of right now, they only have two choices. And so they they kind of the steel man version of this is the government is doing everything they can to not turn this into a monopoly. But of course, the real angle, I think, is actually pretty close to what you're talking about.

IT would be such a loss politically to send them home on not just a SpaceX bl rocket, a non union. Like, remember when, remember when biden invited all of the electric vehicle companies to the E V. Summer at the White house and he brought mary bara on stage and he said, I just want to say to everyone that you have electrified the entire automotive industry.

You electrify the entire automobile industry. I'm serious. You LED. And that matters.

In that year, G, M had shipped thirteen electric cars. I don't mean thirteen model S, I mean thirteen cars. They just launched their first electric vehicle. Uh uh in that year the the the the the the new hammer EV. And like we clear I like G M, and I like like I like jm, and I really like jm defense.

Um those are really great guys and I love that they have a defense division compared to most of the other car company that have not built anything for the military specifically sense world war two. But like IT was crazy to watch that nonsense. And we all know what the answer is.

Union companies were allowed to come to the White house, and union companies were boosted as electrifying the automotive industry. Meanwhile, the guy who outsold every other company there by a factor of ten even put together was snugged. And the rocket thing is just not on steroid, a non union rocket bringing home our brave astronauts is not a politically viable event in election season.

I mean, this is what happens when you buy twitter, I think is really what that's like. That's the sort of maybe giant, I would say. I look to bird in the review, what he got over to the bird.

I mean, that's that's what disease this man took over the speech platform. He thus, to be maybe fair to them, he sort of elan injected himself into politics in a way that no, probably no entrepreneur in my lifetime has done and and just totally politicize himself. And in a way that's that's gonna that's going to come up every time we have to do .

with space ex IT IT is extraordinary. I never would have I never would have bad on that either. Not like it's not because it's it's like it's brave. But also on I just be candid. I think it's definitely negative for his businesses, which makes me feel like he must be doing IT because he really does believe that it's good for humanity, keeps the window from civilization open like like there's no rational business explanation for why he would do any of this. Whatever you could make a business argument.

you could say that if amErica collapses.

that okay, yeah, the ultimate business argument, civilization must go on or I can make money. That's pretty good. But like a specific one, like I, I, I, I feel like even if even if someone hates to you on, they should be able to recognize he is not not doing this because he's just like bowing to pressure or doing what people want, like he is clearly doing what he what he thinks is right.

How much funding are these guys? The huge comments. That's not two part question here at first. How much funding are the jagga ic income is getting in comparison with smaller players? Let's talk about defense specifically less.

They are getting hundreds of billions of dollars and they're getting the lion share of of the money. I mean, what is IT is like eighty percent of major weapons contracts go to one of five companies. Uh, thirty percent of major weapons contracts have a single bitter meaning one come only one. Government even shows up to say they'll do IT for any Price. And it's the defense industry is is is is really about as bad as IT gets on on that front.

Uh, the interesting thing about the interesting thing about about animal is that we're going in to a lot of these areas and we are doing things for a tenth of the Price of the incubation, and we're using our own to develop these capabilities so that the taxpayer is not on the hook when IT doesn't work like they're they're only buying. And if IT actually if IT actually works and we actually make IT work, um that's not a business model that we've that we've used to build our our defense industry. And something something i've been i've been pushing with politicians over the last few years, they've kind of explained to me the red pill of luck palmer.

We know there's lots of problems. We know the models bad, but we've built an entire military around that model and around these companies. And if you just rug pull these guys and force and say, oh, you only get money if you're good, you only get money if IT works, you will just put them out of business you like, they will seized to exist.

And so it's kind of this strange situation where where they know there's a problem, but they can't really do anything about IT because they know that the downstream effects of like. Just look like that we agree on this. Destroying the U.

S. Military and our ability to fight around the world probably has more negative impact than hundreds of billions of dollars in wasteful spending every year, as crazy as that is. Um and so the thing that i've been pushing to them is guys, you need to learn from the democrats.

The democrats have done a really good job with their issues like climate policy or Green energy of saying, hey, we know we can't get what we want now, but here's our vision for fifty years in the future. You know, at some day, some distant future, we're going to have no oil and everything is gonna Green and gas stoves are gona be banned and you're gonna eat the bugs and you you're not going to own anything. You're gonna love IT.

And but like and that you can take issue with those policy positions, but they are very clear about this. This future is very far out. And IT gets people enthuse. They feel Young people feel like at least the democrats have this vision. The republicans are just like day to day playing politics.

What I republicans is, you guys need to put a stick k in the ground and say, here's our vision for what defense spending is like fifty years in the future. Maybe you can't cut him off today, but you can say, you know what my vision is, fifty years from now, there won't be cost plus contracts. Fifty years from now, if you fail to deliver, you don't get paid.

My vision is that in twenty five years, every companies is going to put at least as much into R. N. D. As the government does on any given programme, and like at least then I would feel like theirs a path to beat things being sold. And the good news is, actually people really like this idea. The last time I talked about with somebody, they, they, they, they called their assistant to send somebody to take notes and that that was nice.

Well, I would love to see that this is because it's not just you love to see this is the republican party in general on every single issue. I was talking about this on a libertarian podcast not so long ago where they were arguing that, oh, there is a sort of rightwing philosophe ond education or whatever. It's it's not really because fundamentally a lot of people don't even believe in the concept. So there are the party of no, the democrat, the party of yes to everything. And you can only lose that way.

And I think also, you see that there's no ability to kind of think two steps ahead like the republicans are this great to the outside. The democrats are at one two punch. You pass this bill that does one thing, and then you use IT to create some other unseen consequence that there was downstream of alex, where IT passes law, that to get rid of smog in the los Angeles spacing.

Just kidding. IT means we can take over all of the power plants fifty years later, like they are great. That one, two punch, the republicans generally are not are not thinking that way because they don't think that there should be any laws for anything anyway like they don't want regulation.

And so naturally, like I ve had people say, palmer, how can the republicans take control? The education system like IT seems like there's no way they can. I said, you don't understand like yet when the republicans take control of the institution, they dismantle IT to the great extend thinking IT away with IT because they don't believe that they should be bigger, exist whether the other side big to do more and more and more.

And so you are kind of in this interesting position. Or any time you take power, you immediately set about the task of reducing your power. And do you like? You like, oh, I want to become the king of this country, the republican people.

Like, I did IT, I became king. Time to reduce the power of the king and make sure that I can't affect anything. Like it's a it's a self defeating thing when you're talking about taking over government agencies.

I do want to talk about arsenal. But last question on the incomes. Before I do, I was I assumed that you would have a sort of steel man about them, and I was going to say, you know, what did they get right? And IT sounds like you've I mean, you're just not a lot. Uh, is there anything is there is there anything you can say? And I guess in defense of this, you know hundreds .

of billions of dollars? No, I I think I think there are some things that they get maybe not maybe not perfect, but like I think cosmas contracting has a place for a handful of things that truly do not benefit from advances in commercial or civilian technology to any great extent. Like um I can speculatively build you know a new missile and sell IT not on a cost post contract. And I think that's a great I think that's a way IT should work. I don't think the government should be taking on all the risk on something like that.

What about what about an aircraft Carrier? Uh, I am gonna speculatively design and build an aircraft Carrier in the hopes that the government elects my product, right? Is it's not feasible, is it's too much metal, it's too much stuff, it's too big of a thing or like nuclear power red submarines, if they don't select me, what am I going to do that it's illegal for me to sell IT to anyone else.

And I I feel like there are these kind of pockets where their business model does make sense in the incentives, maybe don't need do efficient outcomes, but not everything that you do has to be efficient. You know, like I look, i'm a rich guy. I buy lots of meals that are not cost efficient, not ine, because I I have a little bit of money to spare and I can afford to have parts of my life be inefficient if IT.

If IT means that i'm happy and everything works. But you you can run an entire country that way, you can run an entire military that way. We need to be very efficient on the things that we can be efficient time, so that we can afford to have these cool things like nuclear submarines, where you they just have to work no matter what, no matter how much they cost, no matter how inefficient to this.

So honor, uh, sorry. And all I always doing that old pronunciation.

I do honor two men. Let's do IT.

I feel, I mean, I think that makes me special. And then people even tray, talk to me like.

i'm an idiot when I say IT so okay, I N the lives.

So you guys just raise one point five billion dollars. This is your series f um LED by founded, where I also work. Full disclosure.

One of the big things that you guys talked about your press release was arsenal. It's a huge facility to be building. You said tens of thousands of autonomous, autonomous systems. I'm assuming that means get my I A.

A A I fighter jets, A I submarines in any anything in everything arsenals reconfigure, mutio the whole bunch of different things but adds it's it's not a factory for one product, is a factory for a bunch of products.

Why did you say what does IT mean by the system's piece tens of thousands of autonomous systems? Or is IT just like .

the use time you could frame IT as autonomists weapons, but some of the things are kind of more weapons at jacon than being a weapon directly. So like like systems, systems just meaning like, you know, chunks of matter. Sometimes I be in the shape of an airplane, sometimes it'll be in the shape of a missile, sometimes they'll be in the shape of a surveilLance tower. Uh but that that's why systems and not strictly weapons well.

I want to get into the specifics of how this factories are failed to call IT seems so different is a kind of .

call the factory is yeah it's a no it's a factory um .

in your press release you said, uh, amErica would run out of weapons in about three weeks if we went to war and I think that's a really interesting sort of entrance into the entire discussion of arsenal. Why is that like that seems pretty shocking. You think that amErica is the sort of land of unlimited weapons um like can you describe just explain that a little.

little more depth. We have really limited industrial capacity when IT comes to making lots of weapons. The united states has a lot of weapons today that are still critical. They were manufactured in the thousand nine hundred and eighty in the ninety eighties and we just stocked piled them.

Um I that's why you're hearing about being people being pulled out of retirement to restart the stinger missile and javelin missile lines like the only people alive we are not to make more of them are in their seven. It's it's a crazy situation. Have you seen the the .

battle ship movie with ra?

Okay, look, it's not a good movie, but there's a great scene at the end where after the aliens, E M P, all of the modern military ships and fighters and everything and are about to take over the world um a bunch of a bunch of special forces guys go to a nursing home and get a bunch of world war two veterans to go down to the peer where they have an old world war two era battleship and then they shovel the call in and they load up some shells and they got to fight the aliens at sea with they're analog ship um and the that's basically what we're doing.

We're pulling the people out of the nursing homes to remake systems that we haven't made for decades because it's the only thing that we can do um and that is a really big problem. We also in an area, area where like we are able to make enough solid cat motors, we can make enough artillery shells, we can make enough amunition, we can make enough missals, we can make enough boats at china as orders of magnitude more ship building capacity than we do. And we also don't have the ability to even make the right types of steel to make type some of the types of ships that we need unless we buy that steal from china.

I mean, it's it's it's a disaster situation that we've let ourselves get into. It's it's the downside of transitioning good information economy and giving away our manufacturing to to china over the course over the course of of decades. Yeah, people imagine we have unlimited weapons. IT isn't the case. And the reason people think that the reason they think that we have this kind of endless capability is because we've been blown up a bunch of huts in the desert for twenty years like we think our hot shit.

But in a real war where you're actually going toe to toe with a great power and you're trading blows and depleting your magazine, um we we would blow our load that IT took decades to build in a matter of days or weeks and that were. Not on a the country is not on a path to solve that. Andrew is is trying.

So I actually have a bunch of questions about manufacturing and trade terms a bit I would like to ask you about in one moment. First, just I would like to drill down little bit more and arsenal itself because you have a bunch of facilities. You have facilities in road island, you have facilities in georgia. You have, I just learned today actually the name of IT I know you want in australia. I did not called go shark, which just like what is different about arsenal.

So the thing about arsenal that makes IT different is that each of those other factories is focused on building you one system or a family of systems that are all pretty similar, like you making a missile and variants of that missile. The different about arsenal is that IT is millions of square feet into which we are investing hundreds of millions of dollars.

And it's a reconfigurable factory that is being designed to share resources between a bunch of different system. So be able to share machines, share space, be reconfigure on the flight to rab up production of one thing as another one scales down. Um that's that's not the way that you would typically run a factory. But IT is is what we're going to have to what we're going to have to make happen with arsenal.

So this is why I was reluctant deep and call in a factory because while I was researching a little bit about that, I wanted to actually get more information directly from you. Um IT just I was looking about ford and just how when he was in, people think he went to the car, right?

It's like he didn't. He didn't. I know he didn't invenit he popularity.

right? But it's like this reminds me of that. And away, it's if you are, you're building a new I don't know, it's such as a factory sort of a new way of Operating a factory.

What is IT is and there's a lot of layers to do like the way we are about software defined to manufacturing. But you thinking about thinking about this where you're trying to automate as much as make sense and nothing that doesn't make sense managing all of the there's a lot that goes on in a factory that isn't just the robot arms moving around and willing stuff together and software. Eight, the world in a lot of other industries.

IT has not eaten the world in the defense industry because at its core, the defense industry is not rewarded for efficiency. You make more money when things are more expensive and when they take longer and when the parts are more expensive. And so so there's not not meant an incentive for these companies to invest heavily in building the tooling and automation that would allow them to build future systems much more cheaply at a lower upfront costs.

Nobody's going to a pay for that. And but but again, your android was not android was not configured to optimates capture taxpayer money. I'll just be honest. I was IT IT is obtained ly configured to solve the problems the dot has and build the tools we actually need.

I think anyone could be making more money as a cost plus contractor with a bunch of smart people and smart tooling on the other side that allows to maximum capture revenue from taxpayers. But I I would not be able to convince myself to do something like that. I think I think we need to prove there's a Better way to do this stuff.

Because if we can prove IT, everyone else is gonna get forced to to come along with us. That's that's really the proof of concept going for here. Is your sense that .

you have improving into them? And do you think that I mean, I know what you first started, IT was IT was a no and they're still getting all these huge contracts. But IT, is your sense they're afraid a bit at this point.

We're proving IT up and up and up and up the chain. I think there was a sense of, well, sure, you can do software as a product, but you know you you can do like, you know you can do full systems. And then there was, oh, well, maybe you can do some hardware systems that way, like, you know, ghost is cool, evs cool.

Maybe companies can speculate ly, build their own things, use their own money, decide what works, what does, and and then sell IT IT as a program. But you'll be able to do that with you with with missile. And then I was, you'll never alone.

You're not speculated, build a fighter jet. That's that's really our brighton butter. And then yeah, we be lucky.

And boeing and northrop on the collaboration combat aircraft selection. And also some people are realizing, oh, you can do IT this way. You can run a company like and rain.

You can build not just little tiny software building blocks or you know little tiny quad copies. You you can build real meaningful systems with this business model. I think people people are starting to realize realize that I mean.

a big huge part of the conversation when IT comes to arsenal and manufacturing and be realty getting into IT moments ago is just the fact america's manufacturing capacity is no it's no longer there. Uh, this, I think, is the sort of probably the engine of that has been global ism and global trade.

We're competing with people who can, either one just naturally, because lack of labor laws or whatever else, produce things that much cheaper than we can produce them. Here in amErica or two cases like china, you have the governments abroad actually subsidies their industries. IT makes competition incredibly difficult to cheaper to building abroad.

That's the level problem. I think this brings us to the topic of tariff s so one of the ways trumps talked about tariff s for a long time a the the economists, I think, tend to hate this idea. Libertarians really hate this idea.

Um they also tend to IT seems that they also tend to draw and IT here they they sort of frame the terror. S is a very broad thing. From what i've heard IT seems like the tactics are going to be much more narrow tariff s in certain situations to achieve whatever, whatever aim.

Uh, I still though I think that there's room to disagree on this one. And i'm wondering where you stand on IT. How do you think about the terrorists? S and how do you think about really the baLance between this need for us to bring manufacturing home and just the fact that it's .

not affordable that we talked on the pod, uh, we talked about tiktok and I point IT out that talk should uh be banned really as a matter of, uh as a matter of, you know, economic trade. Like don't treat like a national security issue. Just just recognize that we shouldn't allow them to sell off to us, that we sell to them on terrifying the exact opposite.

I primarily believe them as a national security issue. It's so easy to say, well, you know the libertarian perspective on this is that that you know the most efficient player in the market should be allowed to solve uh, the problem with that is that you destroy your entire ability to defend yourself like you. You have no ability make weapons.

And this isn't just the united states like we're all about this in the united states because we're in the unenviable able position of having a poorly functioning manufacturing upper atos and also being the world police. There are a lot of countries in the world that cannot possibly defend themselves because they have also outsource all of their manufacturing capacity. It's not just the U.

S. Has been hollowed out by china. It's everybody. It's the entire west. And the only reason we have anything left here is because we're the world, please, and we have some weapons market. There's countries all over europe that used to be powerhouses.

And now the reason the reliant on us is because they have zero manufacturing capability of any. Also, to me, I think terriers are great because they ensure there is a market for manufacturing and they ensure there is a market for manufacture that takes place under U. S.

Human rights laws. U. S. U. S. Energy laws like slavery is really profitable. And so you have a lot of a places around the world where you have a your quasi slavery or literal slavery, making things really, really cheap.

And I get this argument in the election year of terrorists are just taxes. I think you've seen what the haris campaigning saying. They're saying he's putting a trump tax on gas, a trump tax on groceries, a trump tax on your car like o okay, that's that's great. But at at some point, why make anything right? Like IT probably is cheaper for us to have child slaves in africa, make everything for us.

And I mean, why would you want to trump tax on your car when IT can be made by child slaves in the congo? But it's it's just this ludicrously ticals argument when you take IT all the way to its libertarian extremes so I am really enjoying the Harris campaign, taking the extremist librarian position of of child slaves. Making your stuff is okay um you know love is calling out .

and chemist libertarian position because that is what IT is and it's a thing that libertarians refused to grapple with. It's like you want liberty at home but not abroad. And clearly, that's what these policies have done is like guess you've said it's you've sort of in slave people in foreign tries .

and and we end up in slaving ourselves in the long run like you can say, oh, I think this thing should always go to the most sufficient player OK. Well, let's play that out. Thirty years, we now have no ability to make cars, no ability to make batteries or solar panels, our energy industry, food industry and automotive.

Dusty is owned entirely by our largest strategic adversary, which is also now the world's largest hyper power. And then they just take away because there's nothing we can do about IT like that. That's actually the logical outcome of these things if he played IT out to, if you play IT out to the extreme.

So we're all, we all are relying on, I mean, just a global supply chain, right? Uh, there are going to be caught. T, I don't know.

Second order affects perhaps of the terror system. I'm wondering just what is this sort of terf. Policy that you would like to see. What do you think would work here?

Or should I D love for you to be? Well, then the everyone, every everyone wants going to sound so self serving, right? Because everyone always wants welfare for their thing.

The farmers want welfare for corn, and the auto workers want welfare for auto unions. And look at me, the weapons, the weapons dealer of surprise, surprise. I want welfare for the defense industry. Um but but I like what I would love to see is tariff s on things that are directly downstream of strategically important uh, assets like for example, I am a fan of steel.

Tariff s to the extent that they allow us to maintain some steel industry and aluminum m terrify that a lot of some aluminum industry not saying that we need to make IT where where the we you don't have any imported aluminum or any imported seal, but there's a huge world of difference between allowing them to be some viable U. S. Industry and none at all.

It's a difference in having, let's say, an aluminum plant that you could ramp up, talent that you could ramp up and literally no capacity whatsoever. So I would love to see them say, what are you the things we can get without? Like we need the ability to make critical metals.

We need the ability to feed ourselves like we Better make sure that we are not dependent on other people for food, particular people who hate us. Um and let's pick these errors areas and an act terrace that are sufficient to safeguard those industries. And people say, but palmer, that's protecting that.

That's protectionist and they will be less sufficient. And my argument that would be okay, well, that that's why you need a regulations, give her the regulations everywhere else so that you can have lots of competition and there's lots of money to be made like make IT where make IT where there's lots of competition in the us. But you don't have to worry about you know slave grown strawberry .

filter on your campaign poster but .

I mean you're from know you with like slavery avocados oh.

I wait. So slavery avocados, no, tell me more about slow.

So what are the interesting things that the car tells has been doing over the last couple of decades as as as the war on drugs has kind of made drugs less and less profitable as it's become harder for them to make money on drugs to get like drugs getting cheap is actually .

bad for the car tels a.

So what they're doing is there is actually cases where the car tels are going in and taking over avocado farms by force and then uh, running them with out complying with environmental regulations and a not paying any taxes.

And so and they're when I say by force, I mean, there are literally making people work these avoca farms gunpoint and not allowing them to leave to return to their families and and so it's wild to me when you can you get these extremist libertarians are like, oh, but you know, we should buy avocations on whether the cheapest star you shouldn't have those turfs and I you know what I just can't feel that bad about starving the car tels of revenue from the U. S. That pays for slavery. Avoid us.

Yeah they want to say things like because obviously with the avocado s in america, more expensive that's more buying mexicos cato s and have to do with tax policy and things like this. They'll say, well, you know, if we do these terrace, americans are going to have to pay ten dollars for an avocados something that's not going to happen because the moment that, you know, Becky comes out of yoga class and has to pay ten dollars for an avocados is the moment that the policy, the tax policy evaporates and we once again have a market for avocados in america.

why? And also what happens is eventually you're going to get like eventually that guys and elsa gonda are gonna a start grown ovoid to. Like if you really get to ten dollar avocations, you're going to be people built in your robot voca ado farms you're going to have to build like people you get these short term pain points, like terrible, are very painful in the short term because they raise Prices.

But then people come in and figure out how to do things even Better. That probably never what had happened had the status quote up and shook up. It's kind of what we've seen with automation in the in in the food service sector, right? Like like the minimum wage laws are what's actually driving all of this automation. And i'm not a fan of a minimum wage loss, but but I feel like tariff or or something that can drive positive innovation.

Uh, I want to pave IT to one of my favorite pushing bags, google, for just a moment. You have about two hundred employees at google. Deep mind signed a pleasure open letter of some kind not to work with the U. S. military.

Oh, again, yes.

exactly. We're back. I was say, is the exact same environment that we were in back when you guys were founding and roll.

Do you think that this is indicative of a broader tech sentiment? Was there a vibe shift? How much of the vibe shift has been real? Do you I mean, where do you think the valley y is on this stuff now?

I think the valleys on the side of the of, I think they're on the side of violence. Like as as a tool you need to have in your in your toolbox I I here's human and here's an interesting point, he said is two hundred google employees, right? So remember that the last time this happened, the open letter had three thousand people on IT.

I I think that that's actually probably indicative of the vive ships and a very a very direct way. Um and I was saying even back when there were the three thousand employees who signed IT, I said at the time that IT was not as indicative of as you as you might think of a antimilitary sentiment. Nine out of ten people in the valley, I believe, support the idea that the united states should have Better weapons than russia in china.

It's not that controversial um and everyone felt like he was controversial because of that loud minority making a whole bunch of noise about. And so I would people talk to me. They be like, hey, I like, I like the military, but don't tell anybody, don't tell anybody.

And I was so funny. Let me, let me yeah, they thought, like, people really thought I was like this, like contrarian position. Oh my god, all of you agree on this.

You're you're just allowing yourself to be ruled by this little vocal minority. And also remember a lot of people who sign that three thousand person google letter, many of them were not U. S. citizens. Some of them had literally never been to the united states.

You had, for example, one of the guys signing the letter was a marketing manager working out of the google london office who's a chinese national is like, oh, google workers pledge to not support U. S. military.

Like, oh, wow, yeah. This is news. Chinese national doesn't want to work for the U. S. military. What a surprise. Um in chinese national and european, even worse, I think there's been a big vive I I guess trouble there's been a big vive shift. The fact that we've one from three thousand employees to two hundred employees like i'm unsurprised they rustle up two hundred, two hundred employees who are who are willingly to be out be publicly on that side.

Now just on naming the chinese national component of the story. When you first did that was a handful of years ago. Now you were really attacked in the press.

Pretty brutal for that. Oh yeah, know kerrs wish her said that he would have rush the stage had he been there to hold me to account. So really like twitter, tough guy action.

Like, it's like one step removed from, I want to kick, I want to kick that guys asked if he said that to me. Like, so I want to rush the stage if he tried to make a get away with saying that front of me. And all I said was that many of the people are not U.

S. nationals. And they they're like that. So racist.

Why does that matter of the U. S. nationals? Like, because we were tired of the united states military jeez. Ah got right. That huge there was a huge backlash to IT.

Well, eight years ago, you know, you were voting for truck. Uh, you were not even doing IT publicly. You were supporting him privately that got out into the news.

You were destroy for IT. You lost your job for IT. You were demonized throughout the tire industry for IT. What do you think about, I mean, eight years later, I mean, Peter, experience something not quite that bad but also pretty bad for supporting trump, right? It's very different now. And i'm wondering, just as someone watching all this and also participating in in the today, how do you feel about or think about the the silicon valley es of apparent tolerance for new drop supporters and earn the public .

trust supporters? So once again, two answers. One is I am actually very, very sore about IT, very, very bitter about IT ah because a lot of the people today are putting out these announcements through like you know what I am in a support trump and here's why and i'm so brave and everyone's giving the like many of those same people are the people who are literally calling for me to be fired specifically because of my support for entropy.

So like I understand that politics is about persuading. You shouldn't draw battle lines and then say, by the way, I will never accept you to my side like you're on the other side, right? And you can never come to my side or or slater like that that is not productive politics, however you can see.

Or someone like me would be a little sore about the people who try to get me fired now um I mean, I hate to even bring, but like you look at like a Jason kalyani types of person that more IT frustrates me. So um but on the other hand, you look at you, you can't really blame people. I think if you look at market, an interview back in twenty six or twenty seventeen right around when all the controversies me was going around and they asked him about IT, and he said that he is one of the most connected people in silicon valley, which is not an exaggeration.

He knows everybody and he only knew of two people willing to admit that they supported Donald trump, me and Peter til and his point was he knows there's more people out there that support trump in his ideas than two um but that something has gone seriously wrong in amErica or at least in the tech industry where someone as well connected as mark is only able to find two people who support the winning candidate for president of the united states and I think what happened is. There's now so you every person who supports him makes IT easier to come out as as supporting him. And a lot of people violin with this, they're not so much supporting trump as just they feel like they have no choice when put up with an alternative of taxing unrealized gains, destroying the innovation economy. Uh, you burn, not the rich, but the venture bact specifically. I guess there I dam I I guess, I guess I shouldn't vote for people who hate me.

They're finally come around. One sort of fun question. I hope you have an interesting answer to how sure you will. What's taboo s today? I mean, trump s taboo eight years ago.

What is the new? What is the new trump p of anything? Or are we in a post taboo error? Has the vibe shift been that real? Did the heroics of IT all change the world?

I mean, there's there's a lot of horrendous idea you would have about in the presidential race or just like generally .

maybe just generally, I mean, what is something that you know your you think is important right now that you feel is maybe it's a dangerous question to ask because you did lose your job for the last time, so maybe don't go that hard. But i'm wondering maybe if don't if you separate IT from you and you just think about IT generally, you know what are some things out there that that people are getting attacked for that maybe .

they shouldn't be interesting. So this one's tough because both parties definitely believe things in the people in them believe things that I think are that I think are herrets al as judge by the other side. There's very few things that are herregud to both parties like IT is going to sound really lame but kind of the most horrendous a views or combination views where you believe a set of things that one side believes and then the other side beliefs, but they're not the ones that are supposed to blend like I would say, like, like, like Robert Kennedy, like R, F, K is definitely like he believes these things. Like look for simple.

He's anti vaccine in a way that is, I think, quite popular, all with certain elements of the right and certain elements of the left but a but it's really just it's more crazy that he is like pro environment but anti I vaccine for free speech like the combination is like water and oil and people people keep people can't can't make something of IT. Um the yeah what I don't know does does does that seem right? Does that make sense IT?

Does I mean those of the people that are seen as the postage and the states are always attacked in a way that is this beyond recognition?

Yeah but like in terms of like truly like independently herdal ideas, I think there's there's there there's there's not that many, certainly not that I would be that i'd be willing to say when i've talked about. Like here's a horrell al idea. It's it's the oh, no this is this is this is maybe a pretty good one.

Um there's kind of there's kind of A A heracles around around suggesting that we actually, like the democrats are very much uh kind of anti anti conquest, right? Like they don't believe that that were conquered should remain conquered. They kind of believe like winding back the clock. It's just an argument about how far you should wind back the clock you know, like lots of lots of you on the left oh my god, israel store their land and like, oh, so we should give back hawaii they like, no, not that far.

That's coming. I really believe that hawaiian independence is coming on the left.

So I mean, you know, i've been trying to get some of the hawaii nationalists to come to her icon and give a talk on this because if IT is quite there, i've actually been reaching out to some of the haien hawaiian nationalists and we've talked about this before.

I'm very i'm very fascinated by their argument of because it's actually IT actually is quite like pro amErica and revolution aligned like basically, if you care for tell them a narrative perspective, it's very clear that kind of the good guys like like it's we're not because we're not talking about like we're not talking about like liversidge the native americans. There's lots of arguments. Well, you know they were good.

They they were murdering people and they were enslaving people. And like there's a lot of bad things going on like the hawaii had actually reformed to be a quite modern society and we still went in and we rolled them. And so it's very interesting to hear them.

They're like, shouldn't people have the right to self determination? Like, yeah like and why should you be ruled by someone thousands of miles away who gives you special rules that don't even apply to them on the company? And my yes has a very good point, but also I don't want to give up hawaii then boils down to like I like i've kind of had to come to the conclusion like yeah that the conquered remain conquered like IT is there's no there's no we can start trying to rewind the clock on that um because you you you have to pick a bike. I think that's probably that's probably pretty herrera al, that's pretty dal that with the mainstream dams, like you're right, there's people who want to take back israel as people want to take back. Like would you agree that like like that's pretty that's pretty herdal.

I think it's pretty erratically. It's also a Jason to I am calling IT moon. This is which is moon should be a state.

I think Greenland should be a state. I think cuba should be a state. I believe in an expansive america. And I don't actually know where we learned that we should not be expanding anymore. I don't know when that idea said in in america.

but IT it's when manufactures in y became became able like, like, like if you go to the wikipedia page for manifest destiny, like this concept that man is like destined to expand further and conquer, you conquer more of the world and expand westward. In particular like a there's like manifest destiny is a racist suda philosophy regarding like what do you talk king of what like it's it's actually like this. This is the thing that drove like the entire american experiment and it's like, I agree with you on that like yeah, what we should not stop expanding but is that herrets al is herrera al to believe that we keep expanding. I feel like you'll find a lot of good old boys who agree.

I think that IT is pretty herdal. I think that when Greenland was was put into the conversation, that was seen as very radical. I think if I were to say if if you tube a state became a more popular idea, I think people would find a very, very herrera um you would see people americans upset about IT. I do think the idea of us just spending is seen as radical.

Oh here here's one um public executions people who support public executions that that that's pretty horrendous and i'm .

very pro public you right over me and i'm into .

a public flogging again for the humiliation yeah I am with you there too. But like what's interesting is there's kind of arguments from both sides. I mostly hear like when I talk to the right, I say look like public executions are what we should do because IT does serve to turn effect, whether you think it's worth IT or not. Like they like that, that's a question. But argument and I ve had been very successful with more left leaning people's.

I say, look, don't you think that if the state is gonna executing people, that should be honest about what it's doing and make IT like a public fully in view thing? Like, is that really okay? I A medalist this procedure and basically say, oh yeah, when you're sense to the death penalty, they like put you in a chair and a doctor injects you with something and we pretend it's a medical procedure like like shouldn't be an act of violence is very clear and explicit.

And I find that a lot of people are sympathetic to that argument, but I think that supporting public execution pretty heretical. Or I ve got two more. I threw my row fast. As for p horreur things, H H, H, sixteen year old getting married. And i'm not talking about the the people who are adult to want to marry sixteen.

I like should IT be OK for people to get married, build a life, build a family before they get through the state Mandatory x education system and then these highly socially uh pushed college education system like you've I seen the people saying, oh, you shouldn't be allowed to get married until you're twenty five when your brain fully developed, my point of, my god, talk about tyre y of of of low expectations. You realized that you rose, that mica was settled by people who, like, got married when they were teenagers and like, like, like they settle the entire west and like, you are like, oh, that guy over there. He's only twenty four.

You can't really hold him accountable for his actions as an adult. Like I felt the infantilizing of amErica is is a real problem. But then when you get to the solutions, like people don't, I think that's actually pretty heretical to say.

Like the way that you make people responsible is you make them responsible. So I know what. What do you think age of majority is six?

I think it's an all or nothing thing for me. I think it's either we give kids these rights when they're Young and it's all of them, including marriage and sex and things like this, or we don't let them vote. But you can have you can pretend their children uh, in every other category other than voting. I also, I mean, I agreed if you have the age thing with americans, I mean, I was hamilton or or s some of the .

founding bothers were were teenagers when they were fighting in the revolution. And if you if you can fight the red coats as a teenager, I I I think it's reasonable that you should be able you know a drink or I like there's even boring things like when you're eighteen, you can't build a house like you can't do IT because you're not allowed to sign binding contracts. You can't be legally liable very like you.

There are things you can buy, not be like it's not that the government prohibits you, is that the government is saying that you are not old enough to sign of finding contract makes IT infeasible for the free market to deal with you as as a ferox like, yes, a company will sell a sixteen year old the Candy bark as the liabilities as low. They will not sell them structural wood or nails or paint because then I go to know you. I remember when I was a kid and I tried to buy some paint at the hardware store, and they told me I had to be eighteen, and I couldn't believe that I was just trying to buy for some mod retro projects.

And I I was like this, this is fucked. This is crazy. And maybe I also bias because I should have just married my current wife.

I was sixteen and we've been together since we fifteen. Like I don't know. Like you can't grow up in this country any faster than the lowest common denominator because it's illegal. And that's crazy.

Yeah, I think people get really nervous about Young people voting. But the real problem is not Young people voting is that Young people stay Young until .

they only five. The problem is that Young people voting, its children voting, and there's a lot of twenty year old children and I don't mind adults of any age voting. That seems that seems absolutely fine to me. And the other problem is it's a little bit and all or nothing thing or like society has to be on board with IT.

Like put another way, uh, it's OK for sixteen year old to get married married if it's OK for sixteen year old to get married, uh, and if it's not, then then it's not like i'm not saying it's healthy for sixteen year old yet married. In a world where it's impossible for them to buy anything and the law is against them, they'll be humiliated by by society like that probably doesn't work. Um but but I I feel like that that's that's pretty that's pretty horrendous.

And there was there was one, there was one. Oh, there's one other heretical thing I I remembering now. So i've got this policy idea.

I caught chain gangs for dead beat dads. Nobody likes to that big dads, right? Like kids prepared dads who have been in their kids and don't pay their child support.

They just have band and like the lowest to the law um did you know that there's I couldn't believe this. I origin thought how many dead beat dads could there be in this country like, you know, like a few, there are millions of them. There are millions of men paying no child support for children that they do not take care of and that I feel like everyone univerSally feels like that's a beauty. Big problem.

Um I started looking into this because someone posted the nineteen and ninety to democratic uh democratic party presidential position of like IT IT was without for the party platform and one of the democrat party platform bits was that uh they were going to establishing national Peterson ity test testing initiative so that every child in amErica has established patthern ity so that the man can be held accountable for taking care of their child I was like, wow, that's really based I I I can't imagine right I couldn't imagine them process proposing something like that today. But IT got me thinking like what could you do to encourage this is one one of my maybe herrera policy ideas is um uh if if you father a kid, you should have three choices. You can either take care of the kid directly or you can pay like a punitive level of child support such that your quality of life with the remaining money is going to be poor uh or you will be provided a job on a government chain gang breaking rocks for eighteen years and and IT would be highly visible.

You'd be doing IT on the side of the road in view of of of every Young man who will see that as his future if he does not take responsibility. And I think that would be a really, really powerful thing in terms of promoting responsibility and promoting people to stick IT out even if they don't particularly prefer to. But I I think the democrats are obviously not for this uh because they have uh uh uh A A huge number of voters that that are in that category. And the republicans, I think also know that it's just politically toxic to touch. But I don't know what what do you think chain gangs for dead beat dads?

I'm in favor of shame. Shame back into culture generally. I think it's an important tool and a shame the stocks, the web post. Well, yeah, think specifically. We we've talked about the cast before and I ve got a lot of push back for IT.

But I think specifically for things like bridge blocking, which could lead to actual death, what type ping ambuLance ces and things like this, there was just there was one ambuLance on the bridge. I think IT was two protests ago that had a an organ in an ambuLance and ended up being fine. But the risk of that is crazy. You that you like disrupting and .

was was on on the bay bridge. A was the baby .

I believe IT was the bay bridge. I don't quote me on that.

He was I think I know. I think I know you're talking about because I i've argue with people about IT too. I mean, i've got an idea on this one two which is uh blocking a bridge is uh car jacking and or kidnapping like IT is like by the definition um and I think you just need to be really clear like I would love to see the federal government, maybe a new president, step up and say i'm brighten executive order and uh federally funded highways of which there are a lot of if you if you are if you are a car jackey er or kidnapper on federal property, then you are not allowed to sue anybody for any defensive actions that they might take to protect themselves. And I think that would end the problem very, very, very quickly. Like why should someone have to be on a federal highway, federal federal property and then be surrounded by people with weapons who destroy their car and any second could pull them out and kill them?

Why should they have to sit there and just take IT and like and people say, oh, but palmer, are you saying that the you should be allowed to run over protesters and run over these people are blocking highways and what I I turned IT around and them and ask, okay, what what percentage chance of death of your child in the back seat are you willing to trade if you if you feel that there is a ten percent chance that they're onna murder, your child is IT OK to run them over, what about a one percent chance? What about a zero point one percent chance? And I think most people are not willing to take even a zero point one percent chance that that they are gonna killed, that their kids are going to get killed, so that people have the right to block a highway and prevent ambuLances from going through. And they feels actually like this could be a popular policy.

Yes, I mean, I think that you don't even have to go that far. It's just if someone is trying to hold you hostage, what are you allowed to do to stop them from holding you hostage? And I was under the impression IT anything. So what are we doing here? Yeah, you shall be.

I think. And the thing is that is the issue with this is that I say it's like that is a valid you could run them over and a viable defense is IT was self defense, but you're still going to get charged. You are gna get charged.

You're gonna go to court. Your lives going to be ruined. You're going to be in that millions of dollars to lawyers if you can even find some, take your case, the public defenders going to insist that you just take a please deal. And what's one of those things where, yes, in theory, you can defend yourself, but we've seen as a society what happens to the people who do and as a result, are unwilling to take any action.

So that's why I would want an affirmative action to say, hey, like I, I, I am, I am saying that this is a federal issue and that we are going to preempt like basically, we're not going to let the state charge you because the feds are going to charge you. And they were immediately gone to dismiss the case because you were clearly defending yourselves. I would love to see something like that proactively, but I don't know that that feels a little horrell al in in saying IT but on the other hand, I don't know. I feel like everyone agrees i'm to to debora from a trump ism. I'm just saying what everyone's thinking.

I think it's yeah what what do you break IT down? People are on board. You know, I want to pay me to the media because the media is really where, I mean, all of these ideas they're going ever feel there with.

And before you get into the media, I just got to preempt with anyone is listening to this for the first time and hasn't heard me to graph for palmer, lucky me, was a journalism major. I was the online editor of the daily forty nine, or which was one of the largest student papers in the country. I planned on pursuing a career in technology journalism.

So less anyone think that I am like anti journalism, anti press. I, no, I am against bad journalism, bad press and the corruption of the fourth state. And so I, I, I feel like I get, I, I, you know, black people can say things about black people, the White people can. I can say things about journalists. The non journalists can say that's my opinion your background .

and journalism is why I think I mean you've always been a big supporter of fired wires um and it's why IT means so much to me because you're really coming just as I am now as a journalist ah you're coming from the inside speaking in which if everyone is listening I like to quick shot up for the paradise daily you guys should go describe the powers daily. You got a powers dot com subscribed to IT three takes a day on the topic of the intersection of politics, culture and technology specifically ah but now on the topic of media, how are you tweet should journalists to prostitute themselves literally, as in money for sex two men that consider me their arch rival, have to disclose that fact when they report on me and the choices were either obviously or no um eighty six percent of people voted obviously yes journalists to literally prostitute themselves to palmer lucky arrival should have to disclose that fact when they report on palmer lucky I have a feeling you're not going to be able to disclose much about this but I would not be a good journalist and ask you what reporter .

are you talking about well, i'm happy to tell you off of the pod. Uh, I i'm holding in a little close right now because, uh, no, it's it's it's a serious accusation to levy. I'm not just throwing IT out.

There is a hypotheses ticals there there is someone who is a reporter who is written negative about me on many occasions and who is a reporter foreign major outlet who I found out is having sex for money with someone who has uh consider themselves my arch rival for about ten years now and hates me and is written also about this topic in fact, the reason that he reached out to her is their shared dislike of me um and I know you may think, oh, that's so cute he like reached down the development no. His first his first exchange with her was reaching out to ask how much uh IT would cost to to buy sex with her. Um and so i'm making sure that I have all my ducks in a row before I make IT before I make IT public um because I I need to make make sure that i've got everything right.

But I actually I this is not circumstantial. I actually have the emails. Um I have the entire written written record. Um i've come into IT through a through a bizarre series of events and I I I I I was kind of I I kind of tweed IT out without the names to catch for a few reasons. One, both of them now know that I know which is a very puts me a much more powerful position and that means that I think, uh, both of them will probably ceased to engage with me in any negative way. Like like could you imagine if you knew that I know and then you were to like go out and write another hit piece so like that was part of IT.

Um I just I just, I, I, I, I want I want we go to know to I I I felt like maybe there be people in similar situations and I want to hear from those people and I have already heard from people in the same situations that I know that sounds not but there are people out there who are having pieces written about them by journalists who have have a paid a history of paid prostitution with people who hate them. And so i'm not saying is like an epidemic across the press, but if reporter is writing about somebody, they're supposed to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest, not just actual conflict, but even the appearance. And then the society for profession journalist says that if a conflict is unavoidable, IT must be disclosed at the start of the piece if it's an unavoidable one.

But of course, IT feels like if you write about the people that you're john hates and complaints about, like you should have to be, by the way, like i'm being paid by this guy who hates the person and writing about and actually that that was actually how we met because we both hate him and he paid me money for sex because of IT. Like, I don't know. I want to discover if this is a real, if this is a real, if this a real problem, I suspect it's me and a handful of other people, but it's definitely a it's definitely an artifact of the extremely sex positive, uh, very liberal tech industry. And like I think when all the tech, all the tech writers are on only fans, I guess this is the natural outcome. By the way, I walk through out, he does have an only fans SHE does have an only fans the smoke .

like the fire and .

is my point being it's not like the guy reached out like, you know like you know i'm just going to make up it's not this outlet but suppose IT we're the washington post is not like he mailed her at her washington post email like, hey, will you have sex for money? Um you know the context was already in a sexually charged context but but IT IT is quite interesting .

now I will say, I mean, with the exception of potentially the prostitute in question, the press loves you now which is a wild, wild change for .

you IT is very interesting.

I would like to know what inspired you to take bat the brotow a author Emily chain out on your warship um like it's like a change of heart and i'm wondering just like what was you're thinking there? Are you perhaps just um I don't know do you believe forgiveness and forgetting moving on.

what is going on there one hundred percent? Well, I mean, look, I I mean I even point I like Emily. Emily even has even been in like, I even given Emily heat in the past and then like you, there was that point where he was like, oh, you give so much money to politicians. Why is Andrew such a political company? I was like, you would never ask that question of, say, markers arch berg or or read hastings or any of the other right people who get far more than I do like this this this is a one way question is is is like that and like the fact that i'm wasting my time talking about IT is also even that's a negative to me versus talking about my business or or what we're doing and and and I at the end he said I said you would never ask mark up with that question because I might um but which by the way you're you'll notice in that same bloome work series SHE didn't interview Marks archive k uh you'll notice that SHE didn't uh so that was A I yes I guess I guess we we got the solid government that that SHE lightened um he might but he maintained um look I I think I think that i'm trying to take advantage of this moment in time where people seem to broadly understand that national security is important.

That china is a sending and then even if you don't like me, uh, you can at least recognize that i'm doing things that are good for the nine states and I, I, I I think this is a good moment for me to reach out through mediums that maybe are too a much broader audience that I typically would have like, like, I want to be on sixty minutes. I want to be on bloomberg. I want to be on cnbc.

I I I bond CNN if they asked me to um and sure like part of this is also driven by the fact that the pendulum swing, uh, a time will come. I don't know what I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know what IT is.

Something's gone to happen and the words gonna change and i'm going to be i'm going to be less less a less. I don't know what you can call IT like less dc than is current. And so I need to take advantage of IT.

You're very well like right now, everyone is your you you're like.

you're the guy, you know, funny, these are two different things. I say i'm definitely well, like there was, oh, who was that? There was there was there was A A journalist who wrote on twitter. He's like, I hate palmer and everything he stands for and and like he's a total american imperialist bob law and what makes him so dangerous as he seems like such a nice guy. He's just really afford and wealth poke. He seems like you be really fun to hang out with and it's clear that all his friends he takes care of them and that's why I really hate the guy and like, I think it's it's pretty funny. We get to vote like even your worst enemies are like, I hate this guy who all means seems like a really nice guy.

What is the line? I mean, would you forgive any of these people? Are we able to look forward perhaps to an interview with the washington post tail of the rends?

Oh, my goodness. I mean, at some no, it's it's some. You have to draw line at some point, like the problem with tailor rends, she's she's actually it's a combination of crazy and non preservation ist. So like i've talked often about how wars are wars are lost.

Are wars are fought when one or both sides misunderstand the outcome, right? Like if both sides know that, if both sides know what the outcome is, the war Price won't fought because there won't even be assistance in the first place. And and the exception of this, i've always pointed out to people, is kind of like the jaw dest mentality, like, like I am gonna die for my cause.

I know i'm going to lose, and in losing is glorious death, and that the tail of the rens is a ghost. st. Journalist SHE SHE SHE. Her lack of self preservation instinct is what makes her so dangerous, because you'll say things and do things that cannot possibly turn out well for her and are obviously non risk optimal. But she'll still do IT I think he sees he sees glory in the g had like if SHE is fired by the washington post, SHE will SHE SHE will I think he sees glory in in that even if IT ruins her life. And so, uh, that's why it's dangerous, I think, to, like I wouldn't do in an interview with tailor rs, because I think I could imagine that I do an interview and then he says in a two interview, like, I remember when I did that interview, palmer walked me out the door and he said, you fat bitch like and I know would be totally untrue but in the people would like, oh my god, I can't believe poverty that's like I don't even want to put myself like, don't create a situation and there won't be a situation is kind of how I feel about tailor s .

yeah I been getting that critics criticism. I've that advice because i've expressed an openness to doing a podcast with her or just doing the podcast. I think that would be pretty funny but I think you're probably right um I wanted you are working on something prety cool, which I mean among your many things at your building IT is a consumer device.

IT is a new game. Boy it's the the chromatic that's right。 We talk a little bit about this uh, few months ago and I thought I was really cool. We were talking about installing a and i'm wondering, I guess, just first cut on the cromac and you can tell a little bit about IT, but also that there is something just shady about today's consumer devices. And if so, why or is IT just we're feeling astoria and that's what we're missing, things like the game boy.

no, I think there there are things that have truly been lost. I think that the the thing that we've our games industry has become hyper optimized around making money IT is not controlled by like the people who decide what games get made, aren't the people who make games or even who people who play games like it's it's a financialization Operation.

Uh, the budgets for these things are so big that you have the kind of cator to the middle of the road. You can't make a thing foreign audience anymore. You have to not offend anyone, appeal to everyone.

And in making something for everything, you're making something for nobody. Uh, I I think you see that in the mico transaction take over. I think you see that in the push to get away from physical games and people like oh, IT, but it's it's so much it's digital.

Ames are so great because you uh you know the good Better for the environment or like the companies are pushing them for really serious reasons that really just comes down to IT, makes them a few extra points of margin. And they don't care if you can play the game in ten years. They don't care if you can't pass IT down to your kids.

They don't care if they don't care if um if you don't. Get just the inherent joy of getting to interact with the physical manual, the physical poster, the physical carriage I mean that there there there's so many layers to this. So the thing that i'm making it's it's it's the mod retrod chromatic um and it's basically an ultimate tribute to the intendo game boy.

So the the worlds if you were to make a game boy where money was no object, using the absolute latest and technology to perfectly mimic everything about the game boy they made in the game boy, you'd get the chromatic. So it's got, for example, it's of a plastic screen lens. It's made of lab grown software Crystal instead of plastic shell.

It's a magnesium aluminum alloy shell is much defer, much lighter, much stronger instead of, uh, instead of having a actually the screen is is pretty funny. It's the worst screen probably made in years anywhere in tech. It's a one sixty by one forty four, two and a half in screen that is exactly the same size resolution, pixel structure and even color game IT as the game boy color display.

And so we you had to purposely ly should tif y IT in order like we actually we've custom that the color filters on the L C D are not standard RGB. They're actually copies of the bad color filters that they had to use in the one thousand nine hundred ninety on the game boy color so that when you play game boy our games, they are actually the right color shade and they are actually the right tone like so you don't have things that should be uh you know skin tone being bright yellow, for example. And it's kind of the goal here is to I mean, IT is very much nostalgia play like you want to experience your child hod again.

Um and I I won't claim that dramatic is going to like solve the games industry. I'm not saying that game boy games are the future of the games industry, but there is a lot that we genuinely have lost in the gaming industry over over like the last decade. And it's I mean, you're in I think you're seeing ah I think you're seeing even like game stop capitalize on this. You know the biggest game stop tweet of the last few months been by a lot IT was IT right after a microsoft announced they were shutting down the x box three sixty online store and people going to lose access to IT. Um they did a tweet with a picture of a whole bunch of physical games um and IT on one side I said, uh IT said what you're like, what you're grant, what you inherited and it's like a whole bunch of know you like older brothers game console and is his superintendent and like piles of physical games IT says what your kids will inherit and it's like a bunch of like passwords and a britain failed to log in notification and and they said, never forget what they took from you and I got a huge amount of engagement I think like people. People are getting IT in a way they did not a few years ago.

This is a much bigger thing where you we were promised on the internet world that would live forever, and it's turned out to be totally the opposite of that is in a femoral, malarious world that changes in real time, and you lose everything now that you have on there. That is a problem in itself. But the bigger problem is that we're losing the analogue is what we abandon the analogue years ago.

Um and I mean, we could talk for hours about this. I would you want to focus on just you're on the chromatic for a second you were talking before about um how these people don't care that you even lose your games or whatever I am trying to play poke on the old red blue poke on I it's like hundreds of dollars to buy a copy of this on amazon and then you have to find a game. Boy, they're not even appinted.

You can even you can even buy them online if you want. It's crazy that they go out of their way to not let you experience this. And um what you're talking about, you said, you know you're doing this.

There's like astoria is the drive. It's it's also IT seems like it's love. You know they're running a business.

You actually know it's tribute like I love the game boy, I love a bunch of those games. I wanted to make the thing that is the ultimate way to play those. And as you know, we actually rereleasing a whole bunch of old game boy color games working with the publishers.

And the publishers is worth noting, publishers, almost, the publishers, never manufactured the cartridges. They actually outsource that to intendo. They never had their own manufacturing teams intend to did all of IT.

And so we're going to them and saying like they would never able to do this on their own or gone to this. And guys, we will literally make new runs of modern physical gameboy color games. And I like there are a lot of them, are are really supportive.

I so i'm trying to make, i'm trying to make IT easier for media relive my childhood. But I also want to make IT easier for new generations to experience always in the past, to your point about poker red being like, hard to go back and play. Think how hard IT is for a kid today to, like, it's easy for that.

If you want to see what what books were like two hundred years ago. easy. right? You can, you can download the book and you can read IT if you want.

Know what gaming was like ten years ago, twenty years ago. You have to be like an expert in technology to track everything down. Find a working system, in the case of them, on written in blue IT, probably as a dead save battery by now. And so do I won't hold your games to open IT up and actually saw her in a new battery like it's kind of crazy how games in particular, their past has become inaccessible and that that has not been the case of movies or music or or text. It's like a whole lost generation of experience that nobody can experience anymore.

That's yes, crazy. And IT is completely under disgust and IT needs to be you know, the gaming piece again, it's a the gaming thing is part of IT. But the broader idea of just a digital world that we're living through and losing is a IT seems like it's one of the most important issues of our generation that we should be talking about everyday. And then you like we never really are um I don't have do you use .

are we are we going to talk I mean, mika, we going are we going to talk about IT in this context? I mean, no disrespect, let's get stupid, let's get stoked, let's get retarded. Like like i've got we talked about this before, but like we are living in a world where things are just disappearing in histories being rewritten like like it's kind of crazy IT like the like um um you you have like you you have an album like func which was an award winning best selling album with the song let's get retarded being eliminated from itunes, spotify, apple music title even if their official youtube channel, the wikipedia page has been retired to let's get IT started.

And there's just like a brief passing mention of an earlier version of the song, like we're living in a world where there's like history is just being rewritten and people don't know and it's being rewritten so that like in this case, it's almost worse than just a game not being available. They're rewriting history because they want to look like they were more palpitation to modern taste than they ever wore at the time, like whatever edge they the whole point was that their edgy, and they are trying to rewrite history. No, we were at edgy, but but they still want the popularity today.

No, rewriting the foundation of their success. It's and I I know this seems like a tiny thing, and like my wife in particular, like power nobody cares about let's get retarded. You don't get IT you don't understand. Let's get retarded is just it's just the one example of a thousand or a million to come where you literally won't know what was true and what happened. You will be unable to experience the past or like like disney, disney added IT out on their new, on their new release of leo and stitch.

By way, my favorite dishy movie is leo and stitch, and they edited IT out a scene where leo is hiding in a drier because I oh, that might make kids hide in the drier and then someone, you might run the dryer and then theyll die. And that things like this, they're going to keep happening. They're y're going to rewrite history until there's, until there's there's nothing dangerous and nothing offensive left.

And I wouldn't mind that so much if the if the goal post weren't always changing, like you'd be OK like a one time person, like we're going to urge all this crap and we're going to make a little, a little kap dia page about everything. We urge that you know what was changed, but that's not how these things go. Never is for .

people who are not following you. Maybe I have already had their memory race. We're talking obviously about the black I P.

song. Let's get retarded, which was changed to let's what was IT again. Let's get what was that s get IT started. Let's get IT started.

It's interesting that was a clean merge of the song. There was only developed for the two thousand four N B A all star game. So basically they had to make a clean version of the song for a child friendly venue, and they put IT out there. And what's happening now is, years later, they are racing the original song and pretending that he was always this clean version that was for children at a sporting of that.

Yeah, the important thing here is not just that there's a clean version, but that when you google IT, the real version doesn't come up and that's creepy. You can't experience and then do what you can buy IT.

As you were talking about you.

dimension, ed, leo and stitch, I thought of the mandela effect, which is this new train. I mean, it's an old concept, but it's a new trend on tiktok. Is to be talking about the model a factor on instagram reels or whatever. And this is when you know you have the future of the loom thing. Was there a corncob a or what is there not that you to put up a picture of this thing? I think it's interesting that where is that this is becoming such a huge trend to talk about the mandela effect when we actually have an example of this in real life sort of all around us, which is the vanishing internet that nobody is talking about um I don't know I have one last question for you on something about little more personal um but sure last thoughts may be under the internet you're talking about you know. Leaving something to your kids, which leads into the next piece um how do you think about maybe rebuilding the technological world in such ways we don't lose IT rebuilding .

the technological world in a way where we not lose IT. Yeah I mean that I think that you just have to be aware of this when you are building something right like i'll use one example like just self serving. But for example, the chromatic does not use rechargeable batteries.

IT uses double batteries and we have a rechargeable battery pack option you can use, but it's always able to accept to double air if you pop IT out. And that isn't a nostalgic thing that is i'm not doing because it's a retrod. I'm doing IT because I want this thing to be functional fifty years in the future, a hundred years in the future.

You if you build batteries into something you can replace easily or at all, you're in here like up my phone. It's glue together with IT. He sive and has a built in battery IT.

IT is going to be unusable in some single digit number of years. And I I am not really offended that that's actually also the reason that oculus touch the is that I designed when I was oxus. They use double batteries.

We didn't use rechargeable because we didn't want to deal with the fact that they were going to become just an unusable thing that doesn't power on anymore and the B. M. S.

Loses its charge. And now even if you did recharge to replace that, IT doesn't know the charge date well enough to turn on and safely. Uh, I I think are not on batteries, are not the N L B O.

But when you're building something, you have to think, is this something that will last? Is this something that will survive? And if you don't ask yourself that question, you you should expect that, that will be lost.

And I think I here's another example, like look at some of the people who have done exclusive a podcasts with spotify. And over time, those podcasts have disappeared one by one. You have like you and you have like interviews with the alex Jones just disappeared.

They're just gone. And if you have an exclusive deal, a spotify or that's the only place that you can put your podcast out, uh, you you have to accept, you know what? I'm making a trade.

I'm making a trade of either money or convenience over the fact that this may not survive IT may not be accessible in the future. I wonder for to see people maybe more consciously saying, no, i'm going to do the thing that lasts. I'm going to do the thing that they did endorse.

Um last question in your recent tablet interview you said having less than two point one kids was trade ist to america. Um i'm wondering yeah how many kids you would like to have? First question and then second the tables two .

point one because that's replacement rate I have won so far. And so I mean I know boils down to three like hypotheses ticals. I'd be OK with something like you in a group of friends all agree, and like one out of ten of the U.

S. To draw draws. And then like, like if you would like really formalized IT, I would I be like, maybe OK with that, we cannot afford to be A A, A, A deflection country.

And people say, oh, but palmer, what about immigration? What about people bring in, we are responsible for our own fate, right? We can.

I outsource our future to the idea that hopefully people will come here forever. And that will always be the best place. And that and then that make sense like IT, is uh, we we cannot outsource our stability as as a nation. And i'll tell you this, we need a billion americans because five hundred million americans is not enough to compete with billions of chinese people or billions of people in india or anywhere else. Like if if we, if we eventually you shrink to being like motor a, you're just your company that was once large and once important and now your economically irrelevant. I see that the future of an amErica where kids have one kid per couple is the future of motor a it's a, it's a, it's a dead brand that technically still exists on paper, but everyone just goes about their day without thinking about them once that i'm not okay with that.

Can you describe this? My last question for you, man, and thank you so much for joining. Um can you describe the america? We have talked a lot about this throughout podcast, what amErica should be in the problems facing the country and how you're working to protect and also build a family. Describe the country that your grandkids will be living in if everything goes to plan.

will look, I like, I like what ronal reagan said about being the shining city on the hill, right? It's not just about being good in absolute terms. It's about being a beat into the rest of the world because I want the rest of the world to look to us and say that's the best place.

That's what I need to be more like. We all need to be more like them, more like that. Um i'm hoping that my kids are able to grow in a world where they can make their own decisions.

I hope they're able to grow up in a world where they can say what they believe is true. Um I hope, I hope they don't end up on a on a deadbeat dad chain ganging by my own hand. H I wouldn't I wouldn't be a twist of fate.

Uh, now yeah he ended up on one of the lucky gangs, you know famous ly famously pushed by palm merry up they prop ninety nine the chain gang act. Um you know I I I hope I hope for all of those things, but I ve maybe this gonna sound to try, uh, I I don't think I need like that expensive of a vision for amErica because I think most people actually agree on the things we want, right? Like we want to be all that families.

We want to be able to entertain ourselves. We want to be able to make cool things. We don't want to be locked up locked up in prison. Um I I know one of those people, people like I my vision of amErica is you know trans humanist cyborg, cyborg hive mind.

Like i'd be pretty fine if like the nineteen you know sixties version of amErica is a you know the is is the twenty sixty s version of amErica like generally in shape and feel like I I think I think that would probably be fine. I i'd be OK if i'd be OK if a bunch of Apollo astronauts came to the future before I died and said, yeah, this seems pretty good. This seems pretty good.

amazing.

Thank you so much. Always get to see, mike.