Reacting To Our Hit Piece In Rolling Stone | Pirate Wires Podcast #40
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Thanks for your time and all the best miles ica role stones, hippies. I was accused of being not the very first hit. Although he didn't mention hitler or the paintings, this statement was interpreted by some of his followers as an endorsement of hitters.

visual that they are not bad ama charis like like folk type aspect to IT or it's like a little rough around the edges, the kind of gifts like cover of like a talking go or something.

He wasn't successful ultimately, which embarrassing for him, he showed held morally bankrupt and mindless lesly partisan that he is either woke oh, history not these are then black or don't do IT IT .

at all because IT really reads like a sort of schizophrenia ic monolog.

In some ways I think it's basically made, to be honest, that's why I would have commented to miles if you give me a chance. MIT are.

Walk back to the pod guys um you'll notice them in a new location today where the WTF studios are friends over in new york. Um I god we really have quite a show for you today. I want to start.

We have to start. We have to start with the first, the very first hit. No, i'm proud in a way um really stones hippies.

Uh, I was accused of being a nai. I think we could talk about IT in a minute. Want to give you some background first on this because this is pretty essential. So last week, what we were talking about was google's AI disaster, right? And this was kind of a wild moment for the tech press, because everything that they had said was going to happen with A, I was sort of reverse.

And we have this sort very strange AI out of google that kind of raised White people from history like you could not see them in sort of like every everything from medival europe to uh a modern day pope um just like complete the obliteration there. We rote about IT. We talked about IT.

We covered IT. We were one of the first pieces a one of the first alleged to IT and because the reporting was just unambitiously true um I think there was not very much attack exposure there. So they went after us in a different way.

I'm going to read you. I'm not going to read you the note that I got, I forget what we were doing when this happened. That was something fired, wires related.

I dip back in. I think I might have been recording actually um I did back in. I got this phenomenal email for miles clear. What's up, miles? Hi mike.

Reaching out from rolling stone as i'm working on an article about the backlash to google's gami AI as well as some concurrent discourse on whether hitler had any talent as painter. I read your comments on the former, but I also came across this earlier positive years where you explain that, quote, art should be beautiful. I noticed this tweet came around the same time that others were fiercely debating hitlers merits as an artist because of this post defending them.

And I wondered if you're remarked any connection to that conversation parenthetically IDE IT seems as if at least one of your followers thought so. Anyway, just looking for clarity on mad and if you'd like to wait and hitlers painting, feel free. Thanks for your time and all the best miles. Ica, where is the one begin? Uh, okay.

So IT is true that I wait dart to be beautiful is also true that I was trying to call i'm going to be honest with you guys is also true that I was trying to causes r uh, the reason is because I feel like it's a sort of controversial statement, is to say art is beautiful. And I think that's fucking funny that you can say I should be beautiful without now being accused of natives. M, um obviously he does not think that I was talking about hitler painting.

I ve had no idea what he's talking about. Um I think maybe today we should talk about hitler paintings. I they are not bad. I'm I was just going to say i'm positive that river has opinion and hair painting um i've never seen hilter or I had never seen hillers pennings until I was accused liking them and then I did do some good way and now I fortunately do also have some opinions and hit her painting um but first I mean roughly what was you as what was your what what does your take on this from rice stony was it's pretty tty while they will say to be accused um I mean IT IT feels like an accusation to me.

It's like you're sort of you're being dragged into the hitler mud um over something that really just have nothing at all to do with you. It's kind of like transparently aid I would say IT is weird to have that associated with my name online for the rest of time or until rolling stone was out of business, which in it's only a matter of time. Um I don't know. Do you guys think about this?

Well, in a sense he was miles was making a bid at shaping the narrative, I think, by, like reframing, the reaction to germany as solely among nazis, right? A few, if you had a bad reaction of german, I not see.

And but he wasn't successful ultimately, which is embarrassing for him, aside from how embarrassing the actual like how he showed how morally bankrupt and mindlessly partisan that he is, he wasn't even successful in getting his own narrative to stick. What actually stuck was that if you like gemini, you're right right wing. But more importantly that .

um google trying .

to do the right thing had none's air because IT showed black people being not sees that's the narrative that sort of emerge and that um I think the left is sort of used as a repost the actual truth.

So there's a broader the broader thing here if you want to step back away from the rolling stone sort of hit on us, uh, is this press reaction to the gemini ze story in which I was like, very obviously A A problem on google side that there is a massive like impossibility to produce White people that has been framed as problematic for people of colored by the mainstream. impress. It's like, not really serious.

Nobody y's really afraid. It's clearly uses the defensive google, which is strange, perennially strange to me to see these giant, powerful media institutions defending the government and defending the biggest corporations in the country. But that is where we're at. Um and you're right, there's like an interesting thing here. The really stone writer .

try to produce some sort .

of like and the narrative I mean, they are the uh they are the O G um and miles cli could never .

I I want them to play less dirty in general if you want to walk wash history, go add but walked wash all of history right like you can pick and choose if you're going to walk wash history um either workout oh history um and everybody not these are than black right or don't do IT at all but you should not be able to have your cake and needed to in the situation which is what the new work times is doing they're saying, you know history should be diverse in aspirational but not certain .

parts of history and I don't like that yes yeah I do um I just I mean maybe I just know extremely I don't know like obsessively self involved but I D like one of a focus on the running sound piece for a minute more um I just I need to talk about IT I have a lot of thoughts. River.

you about to say something? I I was just saying that the implication is insane because like what not is like about teller is not as our work you want to mean that that's not what that's not what gets up. I so I mean, IT doesn't even even really work is like in in seniors should that much is like, can you like killers paintings and not by analyzing ss.

I mean, like if that's the only thing like about him. I mean, I think winning revenge all was a prego at a matter graph that, does that mean I agreed with her? Know, hang out in the eagle's nurse. But IT does .

IT IT really had me thinking about Michael Jackson weirdly, like I did inevitably get there where I thought, you know, I love when thriller r. Comes on. You know, I mean, yeah and i'm not in every turn that I don't and I think that you know if the allegations are true, that's prey messed up and I mean, they seem true to me.

I don't know what you all think. They seem true. I have less of a hard time separating the the art from the artist, do you think perhaps the problem here is um well before the problem, I mean, let's maybe the art to like a river here you know a hello art scholar.

Could you maybe just break IT down a little bit? I was surprised I saw castle. I don't know what I thought they're painted. I I assumed just like very kind of cartoonish bad like pictures.

how anty symmetry drawings .

or wonder ver, I don't know. I portraits of people that were bad. I first, I don't know. I like a tury something the thing .

with George bush is that he's like painting traumatized veterans like a that he traumatized by spending to iraq, like a serial killer collecting like token from his victim. That's very psychological with him.

His paintings are giving like modern art excEllence, whether you know, they hate, they are painting and were going to have some pictures appear for you. They're like kind of maybe not is they're like beautiful pictures of castles or whatever, but like not quite as good as other things that we're being done at the time. I think if you're a modern a modern artist, you like that sort of weird art that makes you uncomfortable.

Bush is very good. I think he's like, I think he's actually quite talented. Ver, I really want to get your thoughts on on the r simply .

the r pace. Well, hillers art is like its landscapes, its buildings IT. I actually kind of like IT because it's sort of a mix of like very traditional like realism with like there's a degree of sort of like .

amauri s like like full .

card type aspect to IT. It's like a little work off around the edges that kind of gives like a little IT looks like something be on the the cover of like a talk in book or something yes um I don't know that I mean it's not bad but I also like I mean, if you just saw that painting you won be like oh hillton that you let you know IT IT just seems like A A pleasant sort of painting that you might vide in an teach shop or something and other I think about IT does kind of look like this painting that my parents have in their else because my grandma like group in germany, your Davis in the military and your .

grandma grow in germany. Yes.

is america? No, no business thickies.

yeah.

But my parents have like a hit with original set in their house and IT won't see you next week.

So we so do you think it's do you think you can see in the painting in some way? Could you make a case that you can kind of see what he becomes from the paintings?

I'm like zooming in and like there's like a room somewhere in the background and I don't see. And you think like crazy IT just seems very banal um yeah I mean at the .

very least like .

if you want to get into like fascist could have a fascist order whenever lee reef and stall, which is way more acceptable. The White choose like hitler sort of like favorite showing ker and SHE is like a propaganda. They SHE basically got out the hope neuron berg and then was like, i'm going to go uh, photograph africans, uh, like isolated african tries to prove them not a nazi. But you can still see like kind of like the fascism in even when she's like photographing to africans because it's all about my verity and like it's like pictures of like men grassland and beating each other and stuff and it's like still like you could unlike the lining, revenge all comes across as blob fascist in her art that was boost to convince people if she's not a fascist the hidden er does that is like little landscapes. Yeah.

I found that that what you're saying now is reminding me of the music video, allah andro, lady gaga, allah ro like that fascist art that is like gay fascist having sex. Like it's it's full and you can see the difference in the esthetic. And you're right.

It's like the viability. It's like the I don't know why, but I associate leather with notes for some reason. IT might just be because .

of like gay culture IT like .

blended together there. But do you think that maybe like the poor? Because my understanding of history, of of of hiller's history is it's totally made up. I think it's just like I think I made IT up myself. Was that like because his art was so poorly received he became a fascist so like his paintings wouldn't have been fashious, it's like he had to become a fascist to justify what happened .

to him or something um I mean, i've heard that before. I think that was more like he was radicalized. I think by the war, like the way war war one ended where basically germany surrendered and IT was like falling into disarray under.

He blamed the communist for because the communist try to start a revolution like during the war. And there is he felt that the veterans were disrespected when they came back. And there there's a lot in there that does that have to do with the r. But I think that maybe that's part of IT because if you think about, I mean, like denunciations really were a very IT was a very art forward regime in the way that a lot of other dictatorships were like with the soviet, as I was kind of more than after thought a little bit, and they kind of copied a lot of the nuts is art style and away very similar. You.

I mean.

the nuts is literally had. It's weird to me that people focus on hitler's paintings at all when they are talking about nazarenes tics, because the notes had, like their own, are exhibitions where they would show to generate our and IT would like, you know, sort of african style paintings and sculptures. And they would show, you know, ideal are that would be sort of these greek sculptures and things like that. So they had a very defined esthetic that, in many ways, post stated, hitlers sort of amateurs, paintings and sketches.

This is, this is the root of why people who have this kind of common sense approach to art, which is that, you know, these sort of very clearly beautiful things are beautiful, and this sort of very clearly ugly things are hideous and, you know, not good art. Um I think this is why letting people often do clock that as species. M, it's like hitler said that the ancient Green status were beautiful.

Therefore, to like that must be hit or ask or something. But hasn't that box, left wing zealots like you, for example, with the rolling stone, uh, are some magazine into this really uncomfortable position as as what is extensively and art magazine, which is that if you don't like bad, are your notes that seems like problematic for rolling stone? no.

I mean there's like I guess like the quite like nazi r me that is like, well with them like the western art tradition of this sort of like. High levels of cemetery and structures in like the ino the posts and you know all that I don't know.

I mean IT IT does seem like bizarre that they that they're talking about hedgers are and like don't even an uh it's just a duck on you like they're not actually like, I don't know because, I guess because of what my mind would immediately be, like what? What is, are good. My, I would go. And well, they did the black .

computer ioskeha even know what out. Within a few minutes, they published the peace so clearly they were not just what I have to say now they have a whole pocket. They can listen if they are interest in our thoughts on with their paintings.

Um but the the the quote about the work by rewires um that sort of hate is constructed like this. Again, this is a topic that I know. I had no idea this debate was even happening.

I was not a part of IT. Um I was literally just coming to art, talking about aesthetics. And art is something that I actually, i've done quite a lot.

Empire wires I go back to IT again and again and again um I know a lot of things on IT um anyway from rolling in stone amid this debate, mike salona, a vice president to the venture capital firm founders fun not true, by the way I M B C M O A founders fun twisted. It's pretty simple. Actually, art should be beautiful. Although he didn't mention hitler or the paintings, this statement was interpreted by some of his followers as an endorsement of hitler's visual aesthetic.

So I feel like I don't mean to begger the point, but I think this is just such an incredible quote from a media company and IT really doesn't body like everything that they do um I did not say anything about IT I did not know what was happening um but there you have the claim that I have endorsed hate this visual aesthetic which again until really that statement went out I didn't even know what his visual esthetic was um is bigger than obviously us right? Like this is a kind of media that has been happening for a long time. People read this and they think I can't trust these people or anything. They say, nobody saw that thought I mean, I don't think you'd have to be really stupid to see that and think like, man, that guy must be analysts saw that and they thought, well, I really can't trust rolling stone. Um this is the people this is the same group of people who uh famously had that what was the duke was at the duke rape case that they .

hopes they hold what was .

the huge it's like they've lost their credibility but this one more in I don't know, is there any any last thought I just like like of over on the journal's of rolling stone the sort of decline of rolling stone IT is they were the name Carries this incredible weight because it's wrong ling stone right i'm thinking about like almost famous and you know the healthy and days of music journalism um there are a cool journal they produced a lot of great work uh and kind of here they are now I don't know sad yeah I mean.

I think the question I had reading the piece because IT really reads like a sort of schizophrenic come on a log in some ways where he's just free associating um there's no connection between this you know not see disco like that almost feels word even talk about how there's art here because there's like no connection between the gi stuff he's talking about and then the naughty discourse he brings up and he has the sort of weird like even the line new red ready says no mixa didn't mention hit lysle's directly, right?

It's like, well, of course because there's no connection here between the two topics you're discussing. Uh you wonder where the editor is and I think this is like something that came up in in two and fourteen when they published that false rape story that they have been attractive. They had to pay.

I think they they paid a settlement the the for turn day that they've defamed um IT is a question I think about like editorial standards. And I sort of wonder mean because rolling stone was acquired A A few years ago by a media conglomerate, also owns variety and a couple of other publications. And so I think you do wonder like have these has this acquisition change the sort of editorial makeup like who's you would like to think there are? Be like an adult in the room who is controlling the kind of content that they put out like this? Um because it's order line.

I mean, it's not I don't know if it's life less, but it's really I think, defamatory or in some ways to make these kind of claims. And when he sights like, oh, the followers associated IT with your followers associated IT with hitlers painting, it's like A A link to one tweet from someone and you've got you know hundreds of thousands of followers. I mean, you could have whatever anyone ET was saying.

I think I excited ended a click y man, he was just saying something like you Better not say are is beautiful where they're to call you a fascist and he sort of he brought up up some, I guess, that discuss I didn't see IT until after this piece was published on people I can grow up in the room yeah like you think maybe they're be an editor there but should you think that I don't know like what about there is a difference between the near times in the walls journal well certainly the near times and like rolling stone magazine um I don't know that there is an editor there.

I think he might just be reforming. I think they don't maybe have the money for that at this point. That really is like, it's like this one's great beast has died and now it's just like the rotting corpse of rolling stone invested by these maggots who are kind of like eating IT from within.

It's sad for them. I guess great for us because if only stones is gone, what's the vices gone? Like what is the what is the closest comp to that? And I don't think there's anything in our lane.

to be honest. IT seems to me like a somebody had to be at a worn out for the week and they were like, well, let me read about this and like I I mean it's it's sad to see because really someone what was you know pretty okay you know publication but now I just seems like there is that's very content mill type behavior yeah um and I suspect that is yeah people like okay, I ve got to get something out and so this is what it's going to be when accuse somebody of baby liking hitlers are based on a reply to one two having nothing to do with that learn .

yeah I think that we should I mean taped off on IT lyster tic. I think it's basically mid, to be honest and I don't know. I guess that's my final.

That's what I would have commented to miles if you gave me the chance mid art. I wants to move on to something that really is so stupid and yet so perfectly indicate of like our entire media moment. I think it's fascinating actually, which is this like battle of the ages between tailor rends and lives of tiktok.

I don't actually know the background here. I have no idea why lives of tiktok, china. I can find out what is her last time. anyone? great? Tric yeah I have have no idea why he agreed to this um because I saw that the video was on Taylor's youtube channel.

Um but you did degree I guess the background here is like Taylor famously docks lives of tiktok um and the word docs is you know always a point of contention among journalists. They say that just merely releasing is not boxing. It's in the definition you know releasing someone's personally identifiable information is or a persons identifying information is is docker. I do agree that there is a difference between docks in somebody y's name and doxy their address.

Taylor didn't do that, released this woman's name and made her you know a famous public figure rather than an anonymous account that posted you know take talk videos that were really the rain um but in so doing in doing that it's sort of like a bad man tailed right we're like there's this crazy chemical spill and batman's parents are involved in IT or something and like this person falls into the value of of acid and emerges as is like horrible villain that that is obsessed with the person who they did responsible i'm actually sure which one of them is which in this case. But the two Taylor or and lives of tiktok are super, like I would say, almost inextricably linked at this point. Taylor is constantly reporting on lives of tiktok.

Lives of tiktok is clearly obsessed with Taylor. To the point we're like, you know this the internet sort of sense that this battle was going to be IT was important IT felt meaningful in some way um they arrive like as if they are dressed in the halloween costing versions of themselves Taylor has on outside and share sitting in a chair facing lives of tiktok who is wearing of of A T shirt with Taylor crying on the t shirt um and SHE hands tailor a box of masks um and um they say some like sort of nasty things to each other and then they begin their interview. I can't tell someone what to do in in their house.

Sounds like you do want to tell people what to do in their house. I never that so you're totally okay with people being trans, just not as long as there in public. No, I never said that they could.

It's the whole finger based off of a lie. And I think that the this lie can not be mainstream in our in our society. It's just it's a lie.

And what current is IT closing? Do you believe I I like the truth. I like truth right right now.

You watch the whole thing. Um what was your what was your feeling about at all? Well, I mean.

I think the biggest loser was women. Catty, think like a massagers could not come up with like a Better like ana dot about like the cat inss and uh like petals of women but I mean honestly I think the Taylor came off as more reasonable and like more intelligent than sha giant came across a super defensive in a really in articular way um really seemed really inconsistent about the point I was trying to make where SHE was cleaning that people were defaming her but the tailor was like what you defaming these like random uh you know middle schools teachers are whatever who are like gay and posting on the tiktok and choose china said what they want to be famous posting on tiktok and just like, what are you posting on twitter like old day and IT SHE did Taylor did I do know I can say SHE like own or whatever a bit but SHE. SHE came out SHE preferred Better than I expected SHE seemed to cold her cool little bit more um and seem to a little bit more professor than I did for sure.

Yeah I mean, my sense was for what I saw I expected to do well. I don't know why people keep on the rest many. Taylor, there's a reason she's one of my favorite ite stars in the sort of like wwf of IT all like SHE knows what she's fucked in doing.

Taylor understands the assignment. That's why SHE arrived in her mask like he knows you. You have to dress up and you have to go and you have to play your part.

SHE researched SHE came there with a whole series of questions. He was gonna ask. You had a perspective on the debate, and china showed up. I think china is probably really used to um a friend of mine said this probably used to uh um just kind of being a smart person in her family that everyone's like, yeah, you're right and that's kind of what she's that's who she's used to talking to.

She's where is Taylor's really used to sort of um internet combat, you know and she's gone into a bunch of hostel space and spoke in and she's really formative and you cannot just come a tailor with some dumb shit and expected survive like she's gonna go after you and you have to go back hard if you have any hope here in in shade is really did not she's there。 They're built for different mediums. And H I is not trained under ten nex gravity like Taylor has.

I mean, listen, this woman is still wearing a mask, right? Like her commitment narrative warfare is on parallel. I don't know why he thought this was going to be easy. It's almost offensive to me that you would not take Taylor seriously as a fan of Taylor, as perhaps her biggest fan. Um IT a IT was really not what I expected and you think I I agree the Taylor made a lot of great points, may try a mostly look like a cloud. Unfortunately people are not to like that the mentioned but honestly, like i'm not here to tell your feelings, guys.

I'm here to tell you the truth teller one um there was one really crazy point though that child like very I don't think he meant to do this but like really just exposed the rends ah and I was on the distinction between death threats and bomb threats and uh teller is completely collapsed here the question was sort of like detailers like you know every time you you try a you know report on, uh, no report, they never use the word report, right? Clearly this is what melly balls has one said flip, tiktok is journalism and exposing certain things. IT is acting the way a journalist will do IT is is putting a spotlight on these huge in uh uh is putting spot on on characters and news items that um exposed a broader narrative in the country right um so why is doing that with these?

Like as river you pointed out, these kind of danged teachers or whatever uh who maybe don't matter um tailors like every time you talk about one of these people, they get these our school or one of these things is happening. They get bomb threats. SHE cited some poll that was probably invented but who cares if you say stat on, I have you set a stat on on the video? I know one ever double IT or like, looks at the work from the source.

And I is like, but like I get death threats every time. The media rights about me. Like, are you responsible for those? And I do think that is a very good question, and I don't understand why it's not valid.

Teller immediately said he knew he was stumped at this point. So she's like, I think death threads are different than bomb threats. And I think all of us are like I don't how though like rents they both deaf threats like you're threatened to kill people and um can you blame a person for what they're dr.

Anged fans say and I I don't think that you can or should do that. I don't know if you stop but I got like kinds of death um the past this week after the entire medium machine and after me so they responsible for those. I don't think that there is um right the same correlation.

Are you receiving bombers? I'm really death. It's like, hi, i'm going to come murder you.

Yeah and I definitely sympathize with you there. Literally the article goes live and then I get those truth. I get the same thing when a fox use article goes live. So is the journalist responsible the journalist article I would say, um know there is a different responsibility when we're talking about media and I and I guess to me a death threat is different than a violent bomb bread.

I mean, my interpretation of that moment and the interview was because this is a difficult question but I thought that Taylor was trying to say something like, you know, as a media figure who receives a ton of attention and is posting on controversial cultural topics, you're necessarily gonna get this constant deluge of death threats from, like, unhinged twitter non mainly. But is there a difference maybe between that kind of like those sort of vague death threats that you might get on twitter and then like a specific targeted bomb threat? That's how I interpreted the distinction he was trying to draw .

if people have like threatened to coming twitter before, but like whatever. But I mean, that is that is a little bit different if you call someone is job or you call like a school or whatever, and you say you're going to place up because then that does have real world consequences way. If you don't blow IT up because like then they have to evacuate the school, the police come. It's like a whole thing. I guess there is like there's more action connected to that is maybe what tailor we're trying to get that.

I don't know if she's just I mean, you could explain this a little bit further and you talk about the bernie bro who shot Stevens business. And there is this question because this always happens typically with write wing, with right wing candidate, fans of some right wing candidate go crazy, issued somebody. Everyone wants to blame the candidate rather than the person who shot them.

And it's like his berny sand is responsible for what that guy did because his retaliate activated. This person that was in a bomb thought that was an actual real assassination attempt. I don't think. I mean, there are a lot of crazy people out there, and people are to driving to do really crazy things.

And I do think the regret that they are absorbing, you know, IT has something to do with that in the way that, like you know, you you're triggered by something and you go off, I don't know, you can really inside the mind of a crazy person. But this is this criticism is constantly leveled and um not only you know people like i've got ten this criticism um in fact they got this criticism relating back specifically to tailor who was complained about death threats for years. I was privately asked to stop.

This was a couple of years ago when I was nobody. I was privately asked by one of our colleagues to stop talking about her because he had received SHE was receiving death threats and I wasn't blame specifically but I was this thing the death threads IT IT was used as a tool um to silence like I feel like very uh reasonable critique of work that was shaping all of our lives. And so I am a little bit sensitive to IT and I have also got in death threats.

I think I agree with the point that like ort of anybody online received them and typically they have come for me, they've come like a viral moments and it's when one huge account sort of quote eet to me and activate a mob that's very much in like a sub genre or sub group of the internet. So like it's up to me, they've come twice in two waves, both when the kind of dirt bag left the turn on podcasts I people um when after me and in in those moments is is when people are really spon up and you you tend to get them um I think that was interesting to see. I was very rich for me to watch her sort of go after lives in that way. But I do think shewed red in the rest the way. Any any thoughts on this before I I have one last thought .

on a yeah I would not for you ah is I thought I was a lario when shi claimed that he basically uh only learned about gay people through the internet .

like tea was like .

so you didn't have any like gay friends or family members um like growing up or before you were online SHE was like now was are you from new york? You don't know anything you've ve never .

met a GPS she's an think yeah she's not like .

a house seat and even though I mean there you know their own grinder.

I don't yeah but it's it's like that is absolutely true but absolutely sort of concealed. I think that he is from a very conservative family and so IT is plausible to me that he didn't really it's like IT reminds me of um the woman from what is mag SHE was from the west church like the first time the SHE encounter a lot of people who weren't like her was on the internet. That's not that crazy that you're meet people for the first time in IT.

I do think that these two people are Taylor and and share are locked in this like really interesting memetic rivalry where what they clearly they clearly both want what the other has um they both they both live and die on attention. They're totally obsessed with IT. They both are the I think correct about the relative power that they each have uh and the relative influence of the each have and like the importance of the internet as a way to disseminate um information of really means and shape public opinion and I think that Taylor like lost over lives of tiktok numbers and I think child lost over Taylors sort of unearned legitimacy like they both have things that the other doesn't deserve.

They both have things they don't deserve in the other's eyes and they're both obsessed with each other and that makes them this like really compelling dynamics dual really and I wish that they would start a podcast because I would watch the pocket out of IT. Um and they would both have probably at that point, exactly what they what they both want. I think IT is a match made in heaven.

Yeah I mean, honestly, they were for not like setting up getting gets get like Christian Walker but like moderate they could have done like j jack Peters debate or like nobody wins not if IT makes sense, but they sell out to get somewhere in toronto. And like they could have had they could have made money off of us, both of them. They could have set tisza differences. But women can't set tisza differences for one minute to make a dive.

They they over on threats. Taylor was getting roasted for quote platforming lives of tiktok, which I thought was crazy because where does SHE platform her on what on Taylors youtube, geral and seventeen thousand or something subscribers like I got I think millions of followers would be she's platform SHE .

has a platform yeah plus they're like met at a park or some I like you you know to mean I was like a grainy video.

It's not yeah. There is also that moment in the very beginning where I think someone comes over to give Taylor shit for setting up like a film crew on there. I look like a cafe outside. I think that was very much the energy of like are you really going to set up a fucking film crew at cafe without asking me and tailor where their mask on goes like full?

It's like she's very sweet but very direct and you kind of understand her entire position in this world is like an immediate character it's like, hi, where is doing x but maybe this is where we're over there at a public park and it's like there just like acid dripping through the mask 嗯。 But IT was like, still tactically sweet, technically good, and you got what he wanted. And they filmed the entire time there, and he won.

And this is why I am long Taylor. I really am. And I and I I am a little shorter lives. Then I was, then I was last week, so I think kind of short earner for a while, SHE doesn't have the range, does he like he kind of is SHE can help. It's like wow mall. And this is why the people SHE targets are increasingly not relevant because the culture is shifted, but you can't let go of, you know what did a stupid Lucy person say on the subway today? And it's like, does that really they're always been a stupid to her person on the subway IT only matters if you're working for the White house.

you know then it's a story I think yeah she's actually like was a dangerous I think like if I lives really like thought about that, that is actually like less dangerous than like the so like neo fascist type anonymous uh statue twitter accounts because at least they have an alternative division of like what culture should look like and SHE doesn't at all he just like, uh, the books and the kid's library or gay learn and that but I D like this woman could like not tell you like what makes a good movie or what makes a good painting and like, I mean, so what you're well about, like, you know, the statute is they can .

we yeah they want, they want the other hundred music video.

That's right. Yes, the world they are fighting for and I ay francois spain.

that's what they are fighting for. I'm not saying they're right, but i'm not willing to say that they're wrong about that. Um I do now I mean, we've gotten talk about I mean, we have to do we don't got to I would love to talk about the family field.

I don't if you guys have followed this one. Um I have I did before our producer threw up in the slack and I was delighted because I do think it's really interesting story. One IT revealed the differences culturally between x and the rest of the social internet now.

And two is a generational thing. And then three is kind of, I think, american sentiment generally and what the internet kind of does to us. I think IT revealed sort of pieces of all of this, uh, begins with the girl on tiktok to go super barrier after SHE shares a story that is traumatic but funny and she's impLoring her audience to share stories of their trauma. But IT has to be funny.

What's a piece of trauma that you have that funny and has to actually be funny? I go first. My dad abandon my family when I was five years old, that is, a wife and four kids. He andon and then pursued amateur breakdancing know she's performing .

light hearted mss and she's laughing and but she's telling a very sad story about her dad leaving her entire family to become a breakdancer and um she's very much like I don't care about this whatever IT just got to laugh and she's pausing and watching the video but like very clearly ruthlessly taking this man apart he responds on ex about I think about a day later if the thing goes super viral he responds, he's like, I didn't abandon you.

I was down the street you never visit at me, which by the way, that's a red flag for me. We can really impacted ce in a second um but I kind of immediately t like that. Uh, he does also say, however, that he gave the mom like five million dollars in alex y because the daughter said that he wasn't paying medical bills but he was off there being a you know an influencer um and IT just gets pretty nasty.

Elon mosque jumps, uh supports him, supports the dad in the story. And what follows is sort of tremendous many obvious ly probably at this point tens of millions of people. I've seen some part of this story unfold.

SHE responds to her dad. Her dad responds to her in a much longer piece about the problem of raising girls rather than boys like some uh was much nicer to him or something um a lot to break down here. What do you guys have any rough thoughts before we .

get into the dynamics? Here is important context to add. The guy is wearing a bitcoin shirt like a sort of like timo. Um there's like a bit coin signs on over the show and the type of influence or that he loved to be was a gera ric break dancer like that was the whole bit that he was like i'm old but I can break death pretty well and you good .

um but like actually that's not true ever he he started break dancing research this as well he started break anything seven years after after he left him and his wife got a divorce, which he mentions in his video that fifty percent of couples do so he was saying he is saying that I abandoned the family what happened was we got divorce and I understand how that might look to a five year old, but in fact, I moved one mile down the street pager on five million dollars in alumina, and I was running an advertising agency at the time.

IT was only seven years later when I needed to black button shape that I started getting into break dancing. And I got really, really good, and I was just sorted by accident. So, sorry, very keep going. But I did want to. I want a team, dad here.

But I know i'm glad that you are, that I really none of those things can be verified, like the five million dollars can be verified. SHE didn't I thought I was very suspicious and her follow up that SHE, the girl did not addressed that really incredible claim. C to be have five hundred dollars and say, like he wasn't paying my medical bills is crazy.

That was just living a mile. So down the street in legge ilan. Oi, we just weren't living under the same roof.

Now about not paying medical bills, that's just not correct. Here was the financial arrangement of the divorce. Maddie mom, my x wife got two million dollars at the gate.

Go at the gate, a lumps on payment. Plus I was painting her eighteen thousand dollars per month in child support, and this was later reduced to twelve thousand dollars per months. And of course, I paid health insurance and out of pocket medical costs.

I also put six hundred thousand dollars into the kid's college fund. In all, I paid out about five million dollars to my ex wife to cover cost for her and the kids. And this is, in two thousand, five dollars.

So I add fifty percent to account for inflation. My parents had anything close, close. Like, you know, a fraction of that is what we were raised on, back up a lot of money, five million dollars, not verified where that IT never came back up on the daughter side.

But he also, that was like, you know my daughter is millions of followers or whatever on tick tock does in SHE has a SHE has a bunch she's gone viral at hail of times SHE if he has fans um I seen her start p before and actually thought he was pretty charming uh but SHE doesn't tons of followers and no one is really no one really. This is a story where we don't actually know it's happening on either side. So you're kind of left like you're left to bring a lot of what you think about people in general to this debate.

And both of these people become archetypes like she's the work Younger daughter. He's the nasty racist. Older died with a big coin shirt at a new architect just invented IT, definitely. And you kind of bring your assumptions to the story, right? Like I think that's what's .

happening here. There was a little bit though I mean, he did say in her follow up video SHE contracted some his specific points like he said, no, he moved to florida with his new wife apparently like he didn't live in that house down the street for very long and SHE sort of mentioned, uh, he didn't specifically address the amount of alumina. But SHE said, I guess, that there were instances, again, this is not verifiable, that there were instances later in her adult life when he didn't a pay for certain things for her, which, you know, you can have opinions on whether or not that's adult child should be asking their their parent to pay for their medical bills but I mean.

I think that more than any of the allegations made about him, like the worst that he did as a father, was like making a response video to his daughter, you're planning about him so of just fucking calling her, you know, I like kind of shame.

What what if millions of people have seen you have seen a video about you where you're accused of being a total debi dad who doesn't pay for his daughters like doctor bill and she's in up a destitute for years and all of this stuff ah and as he clam, this is where I did kind of emphasize with them, even knowing none of the facts like just the idea of having facts about you like that shared like having a story about that is a really horrific sort if I would imagine the worst thing that you can that can be said about a parent um and IT was a long, very like thero video so he was very convincing.

I saw the video before he responded and I was like, damn, that sucks um and I kind of moved on with my day like people saw that video and I mean, why? Yeah, he should, I guess he should be a good guy and call her. But also, should nuclear s name don't you have to is, are those the rules right now? Like how do you not how do how do you not acknowledge the rules of our present sort of internet constructed reality?

I think that you can clear your name, but you should call it's clear that like he didn't call her first. So I think because he probably he definite would add that Y, K, I called you later. And if the fact that he was to addressing her directly and not addressing the audience, like actually like thing to do would be like, call her sort IT out and then be like, he he saw the video.

I just talked to my daughter and, you know, cleared up. I understand why he feels like he was abandoned because he was Young. We got the force involved about that. Here's what happened, what the mature thing to do.

I think I believe that his version, the story, is that he asked them to take IT down. And he said, and again, I don't think you can verify any of this and he I feel like he's a liar I think there are a handful of things that once have millions of followers I I think too it's we are to say that that you were, you know, down the streeter, whatever, and you like you never saw her because he didn't come and visit you are the dad like I don't understand that.

And in three, I don't really believe that this man is capable of making five billion dollars um so I kind of am on the doctor side here uh but he's claims that he asked her to take IT down and he said he couldn't because he was going viral. And he is one of these like greatness like L A goblin people who just know they're do anything for fame and he wants to be a screen writer and all of this um and so that kind of vega feels possibly true. I get me again and we don't really know here, but I I think that he did, according to him, try to reach out.

I think it's generally tragic when the culture wars entered the home like this are enter families I hate that um but I I don't trust this lady I I and I didn't actually see the follow I don't I don't realize the follow .

up follow ups sheers.

I did not realize that. But so I watching the I watched the dads I guess, initial response where he plays her video in full and that original video, and I detected that he was proud of her dad while he was talking about how he abandoned her to go for break dancing. You can clearly see that he is like excited to have a dad that at six years old is like a professional break dancer. She's like laughing and that that kind of turned me against that that was the mom where I was like she's just ah she's doing this for the likes.

Why did you believe IT?

I just believe that he was proud.

Watch I I just don't degree. I I think that you don't put your parents on blast like that before. Millions of people, if you're proud of them, like IT was horrible things that he said.

I detected that he was really hurt. And this was the way that IT manifested. And I can not if everything you said, I understand why he said.

Certainly, SHE seems to believe that he said was true. So maybe I understand why she's ard unless understand why he's heard. I also feel like if you put someone's name on internet and a video goes viral, you have to be prepared for a response that's like that. Those just the rules. If you don't want that, you don't put the name up there.

Yeah, I think the whole thing just seemed kind of sad to me, because I feel like IT speaks to this bigger, completely abstracted from the culture wars sort of context of IT all I think there's always away in which kids kind of distort their parents and don't fully understand their parents and tensions when they are raising them are can't fully understand the context of things that happened to when they're Younger and the fact that even the point that that he made about you know I can see how he would have interpreted divorce at five as abandonment is like just a really sad sort of uh, idea um and I think that I don't know like IT does feel kind of I felt kind of uncomfortable watching this back and forth between this like sort of petrol and father daughter duo where like we don't know the full information of what's going on and there is kind of I mean, I think he had to respond because he's also a public figure, right? To the extent that .

he's this somehow this what cause the public figure I mean.

I don't know. He's like he was on dancing with the stars or something. He A D less public figure maybe um but the whole thing just made me feel kind of uncomfortable and sad honestly.

Yeah I saw to weather day about um there is a video that went viral of a mom dressed like very provocatively I guess scally clack closure SHE had to a letters on and like all over like showing boot sia boots and SHE was dancing in her kitchen like like a they get beyonce back of singer and her son was was there like a little like three old Sunny like came over and hugger leg in the middle of thing and it's like a very kind of of nerving picture because it's like a super sexy ward video and someone with you like we are still dealing with the consequences of giving everybody in the world a camera and a link to the internet.

Like new behaviors are forming. And this is that IT does IT feels it's you one you're immediately drawn in to have an opinion. How could you not it's kind of design that way for you to have an opinion about what's going on. But IT is this weird violation of the family, sort of which should be sacred unit um yeah .

we created the family called a public opinion not.

I guess. Now remember the season in the age of David hassle half getting out IT as a total drunk on the net by by his daughter SHE publish this video of him trying to eat hamburger. Well, just completely wasted and you just can't manage sheet hamburger. It's like two minutes of agonizing footage of David hassle hov truck and ly trying to eat a hamburger is absolutely brutal. I think IT basically ended is public career, but suppose has been gone on for a long time before that may be Jerry spreader mark of each.

but those were, I wish to seem that those were fake.

And I had a coworker who went on a jury springer, and I was like her and her baby that he who SHE had like good relation, a good relationship with, like they share custody or whenever, but they just, like cooked up some story about how they had each other, like they were so together, and that he was cheating on her, somebody that was like, completely fake.

And we just, doctor fell is real for sure, to the stories. I know somebody that want a doctor fell and the story was real .

of the stories are real.

They so the stuff is script though, for what I heard, like I I knew what you are proposed to on doctor film and they said IT was they asked, they were like, are you because they were like, there are, can I guess talk about getting married? They're, uh, I kind of there like, would you propose on here? We will pay for the ring.

What's real if they propose, they proposed, you know, it's still cases. The proposal, it's like love is blinder, something they're getting married. Those are real marriages you can .

I think they go after.

but there is crazy and IT should never happen. And the effects of television are degrading western civilization, yes, but is a technically a marriage also? yes? yeah. I mean, I think he was Better when like .

these sort of things were confined to like T L C, which is like in it's like the spiritual successor to like the free show or whatever like to traveling and like IT was fine when I was just like you turn this one channel to see like um two women with like diseases that make them look like armadales fighting or whatever. And it's like, okay yeah a bit. Now it's just like everywhere you've got like bitcoin dad and a aspiring screenwriter daughter and they do deserve each other because like these people, like there's a lot not one person in this family that like can avoid, just like turning to the camera.

Well, the apparently the well to do brothers insist brother and sisters who have really great jobs. And none of that was, none of that was denied by the daughter. So my senses that IT was true.

They all have like, they were like, I forget to now what I wish I had a written down here. But IT was a series of very respectable, like there are other in school studying something that respectable. They had like real respectable jobs. And then I think this Younger one is maybe I don't know where SHE lands in the pack, but he seems like the kind of like black sheep of the family um with you know and we just doing the L A thing I do like I i've seen other stuff and I think that she's jarmon um I think that he's charming. I think they are both probably like kind of sociopathic attention monsters and like he's everywhere they may be deserve each other.

The dad has a fake act, like a fake voice. He has like that youtube accent. You know I mean, like, well, when I talk to you, it's like a really, really that was not .

a dead beat dead at all and by the way, that he did not say that in her video, but a lot of the comments assume that and say that, yeah, yeah, yeah i'd mean that they're something wrong with him, which goes back to my other point like I kind of just don't believe that he was capable of making .

five million dollars. Well, I mean, he's a boom ber. There's a lot of mysteriously rich boomers out there. The nineties were crazy. You could they need good, just like make a million .

that and you have to give him credit. His first video, presumably his first video got thirty two million views. I mean, he's got a really higher person here.

I think he's also is he not was his job .

marketing I think .

advertising .

vertie .

says the mad man the the mad man of uh twenty twenty four um guys, we get a rapid up. I do you want to sit there's one last thing very quickly taking of doctor filler reminded me of this very unna thing on the view I followed the you reasonably closely um always have since was a little kid now I kind of watch the clips.

I feel like they're very interestingly indicative of where a certain segment of society is is like the sort of mm, bc, cat mom. Um they at home watching the view, I feel like the pains on that show really do uh, capture that culture. Doctor phil shows up and the clip that's going sort of vo, right now it's they're talking about COVID closing schools and the woman of the viewer like, but that was a good thing, right?

There's sort of still defending IT and he just lays down the godly, then covered he is ten years later. And the same agencies that knew that are the agencies that shut down the schools for two years. Who does that? Who takes away the support system for these children?

Who takes them away, shut IT down. And by the way, when they shut IT down, they stopped the Mandates reporters from being able to see children that we're being abused and sexually molested, and in fact, send them home and abandoned them to their abusers with no way to watch. And referrals drop fifty .

to sixty percent.

So so I remember we know a lot of folks who died .

during this that I was people weren't lying around.

But well, you know what? We're lucky. Maybe we're lucky they didn't because we kept amount of the the the places that they could be sick because no one wants to believe we had an issue.

Are you saying no schoolchildren died of covert? I'm saying IT was the safest group. They were the less vulnerable group, and they suffered and will suffer more from the mismanagement of coffee, then they will from the exposure to code.

And that's not an opinion. That's a fact. Well, fail. And there are sort of left speechless because, of course, there is no real retard. Children were no statistically not nearly as at risk of covent as they were from the actual school shutdowns. I don't do you guess catch that at all. Do you have any thought? Last thoughts and just sort of like you, the cultural vibe shift is that relates to cover where people are at for the before we go.

I think that relates that feels like IT relates to um another story which i've been seeing making the rounds about a former new york times writer reporter who in his orientation said that he his favorite sandwich was like a spicy chicken sandwich from chick fully and um it's like the antiques is reported in in the atlantic he describes everybody's he describes the H R.

Lady who is in the orientation responded him saying like we don't do that here, preferring to chickle is CEO who's like anti gay or something like that and then everybody at the orientation, everybody else snapping, like in approval of the hr lady, and then everybody on the left, probably some of whom are in that room responding on twitter to that anew, saying no, did not happen. They are, they're like denying that this thing that they probably did happened because they know that looks fucking crazy. And I think that doctor feel is.

yes, just a single factor IT lani lani. yeah.

And so IT just feels like people are starting to truly back peddle from these the same positions and you're seeing all of the place.

The fact that people were even saying that this never happened I mean, he was adam weinstein writing this all bet about how he's was a hairy at the new york times and all these people who worked with him at the time we're like, yeah he when this happened he told us about IT um and so IT is kind of insane. I think there's this weird like moment where some people on the far left seeing themselves for how crazy they've appeared to the ordinary person for the past few years and there's like this weird looking in the mirror .

moment this but there's they're not like, oh, men maybe we we're wrong. They're like this yeah didn't happen, did not have to place.

which is a mission, I think, of some extent of life energy.

But I think to to avoid self like this in the future, we we need some kind of moment where everybody agrees what the norms are rather than saying like this never happened great to say like this should never happen um but I don't know I mean.

I saw people descending IT like not eating a trip lay you're not admitting to eating a trick fully like this point tweet that um I found three like three thousand years you genuinely have to be an idiot. And professional settings, if you say your favorite sandwich is from chick fully during a work ice breaker and like why gay people do not even clock about the chick for thing? We didn't care at the time. I til like, I I remember like being like when that came out, still leading a trick for, like, seeing other gay people there. H, I don't gay people who have worked for trick fully?

No, I don't. IT was like, almost sort of subgenera or a general of of content. Like a general of content was like gay people confessing that they loved the, you know, chickle for eyes or whatever else.

And they would be like giving IT and videos and not giving a lot. This is gay men in general are right. Gay men are they don't care. They're like generally you have a handful that care a lot.

But the average gay guys, like super, not really plugged into this stuff, thinks it's all stupid, wants to make fun of like sort of naturally, maybe even genetically, who knows, prety disposed to make fun of shit. And like this is something that they thought was funny. I agree.

And that was certainly my read of culture at the time. And I was living in san Francesco. So um I want to, uh I want to call this one guys it's been swell um rate review share, let's get the word out there.

And also um you know we've doing this thing where we're a live chatting um for the premiere every friday. So if you were in the live chat today, hello, thank you for stopping by. I was in there too. Uh, catching next time. bye.