San Francisco Ends Homelessness.. For A Dictator | Pirate Wires Podcast #23 🏴‍☠️
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It's no secret that set tisco is a hot spot for the use, but with APEC in town, while the city underwent a major makeover over .

the city can take advantage of the APEC excitement to keep the city clean and hopefully safe. There are no more drug dealers, there were no encamps, but there were cops inside the cbs. One of them was like, hello, give me a not.

I'm like, what is going on right now? I know folks say they're just cleaning up this place because all those fancy leaders are coming in a town. That's true because it's true. Why the don't you do this for us? We pay your mother.

Welcome back to the pod guys. I think first things first, dig osi in interaction.

What the dnc yeah those people they should have done IT when they stole .

IT from berny. This is okay. So there's this last night.

I'm very well. You know the troll are going off. It's the interaction is january six. This is like the third time theyve had one of these since the gaza stuff started. Um it's like constant interactions interactions right now.

This one is you have a massive mob of people out in front of the dnc um all chained together. And I realized last night i'm watching this a really a couple of things there is like it's like the two genres of interactions. Um you also right now have the bay bridges shut down and I want to talk about that in a second.

Uh so there is something just kind of ground for or extremely embarrassing about public protest. They are outside the dnc. We're outside the other party.

Party had porters because this party claims to be on the side of life. And equally, it's like the musical of the nineteen and sixties is how IT always comes off to me. IT never really feel serious. There's no real risk involved at all for any of these people. I also just there's something about this issue in particular.

I know that these people out in front of the dnc just learned what gaza was like two weeks ago when they google did and to see them sort of like carted off screeching um IT just IT seems silly to me. I mean, what is what is your overall as I I get mad, a lot of these things in in the past would make me mad. The bay bridge does make me mad um to see people sort of like getting crazy and screaming what not I don't I don't feel mad about IT really in in this case, maybe anymore maybe they're broken me.

I don't know where you guys are in your in your are in your your sense of the interactions uh, in the protest. How is he making you feeling? How are you dealing with with all this in in the current social media age of we live in?

I mean they literally did the same thing a couple of weeks ago in front of the federal building in different ces go um where they chained themselves federal building and half the people who are there we're just like taking self fees and chanting no justice, no peace it's the same chance that they change in twenty twenty during black lives matter um and you know I wrote about the people who stormed this military vessel in sentence is go as well who are you look at the videos of the protests and they're like wearing kivas they just bought amazon and their banged drums and again they're chanting the same no justice, no peace from the river to the sea but like half the people there, I think you're just like there to get something for their instagram story and then they leave. Um they are certainly .

that the huge ones are like this. But then there's this like the ones the one in front the dnc, for example, that didn't look like that many people. That was a mob for sure, but they were all wearing the same t shirt. Like they they all have like a like a cute t shirt and like a slogan prepared they're doing. They are like collective chanting and their together it's it's like you have these small little groups of people who are funded by whatever on profit and they go out there and they they like read havoc and then they can they just go home after that, I was wondering, so the bay bridge right now, you have APEC happening. Um so everyone knows a lot of attention on sanford this co the baby bridge is shut down.

So this is where IT becomes less funny to me because when you're on a bridge um you're stuck in a place right the bridge stops and the traffic this is was rush hour when I started so the the traffic gets backed up, you know miles and now your your stock kind of bridge could be you be on your way to the hospital. You can be ah something could happen why you're on the bridge here you're effectively, I mean this is this is not like false imprisonment or something. I think I think you can't block a bridge that seems crazy.

That should be a felling to me. Um I don't know what I don't even know what the rules are on that. I don't know where these people go. I don't know how what keeps happening and nothing happens um but I do think there's like maybe like a spectrum of of of the protests.

They ranged from like funny to just like I really i'm enraged right now and IT reminds me of that dude who blew out I mean, I up my listen i'm not saying he was right but that old guy who gunned down those two environmental prostate. Um i'm just saying I understand where it's coming from that there's like a tradition that he's working within and part of IT feels like, I mean, they want this they want there's like this weird I think victim persecution thing happening. IT feels also maybe a little bit sexual there, always in chains and they seem to really love when the police come and grab them. I was watching one yesterday where the police came up and grabs this girl and he started screaming, but he felt like IT felt a little bit static to me, and I felt like almost awkward watching IT. Is that like you think .

i'm off base here? No, I think that like people, there's like this financial ation of protests, I think on the left and this misconception that IT sweig public opinion and how, especially if you get like beaten up by a cop and like I think this kind of like the civil rights era where you know, TV had just become a thing and you had these like very well organized uh, protests, mostly organized by like the black church in the south, where you had like basically respectable looking people who are just like silently marching in like full sunday suits, like being like having dogs on them and being like beat them by races.

Cops alive on TV and that did like to make public opinion because people were like, did you do not doing anything wrong but when you're like trying to break into a place and you're like, you look insane and like the police are arresting you, people are like, good. That's great. Like they that I need during the vietnam war like this is like the vietnam war probably would not have last as long as I did if I would say like IT wasn't the beginning.

We're like most of the protesters were from like the catholic worker movement is like prisoners who are like against the war and that he became these like, insane, dirty hippies who are like, we also want to like, do acid at the protest and like, you know how gay sucks or whatever and people are like this, they start doing terrorist and that turned like the public against IT. IT was finally, just years and years, i've just like this english war that the public finally gave up and had nothing to do with protests. And so people have this like fake history in the psychic idea of what they're doing. And that just doesn't make you think they really .

believe that they're making. I have a hard time believing that any of these people truly believe that they're out there, are protesting because they're going to end the war in gaza. Has to be at something else that the bridge stuff in particular to kind of pick backup of something as social media thing that feels deeply narcissistic to me.

I just saw someone, one of the protesters, because they're hunt flux in twitter to talking about IT. And this woman, like, you know, there are dozens of protesters that shut down the babies ate. There are millions of people in the bay area to think that, like dozens of people should be able to shut down a bridge that millions of people use is a level of narses ism that I genuinely have a hard time accessing. That's crazy to me. I wonder I just I can't get inside of that of that space and and they do seem to feel it's like they're living out some kind of weird fantasy y and IT ranges from just the theatrical, the instagram to genuinely the sexual IT really feels like a fetish to me on on some level, like with the chains and the cops and like the snm type vive, the dumps of mission thing, like they love IT like they want to be held captive until I take photographs of themselves this way. It's weird and I just feel like I actually am not a you know don't king shame I think some kings should be shamed.

I don't know what a shame that's .

all point they've invited means with and that's my problem with this is they dragging me so they're fucking weird perversion without my consent and I I think that .

um that's got to stop.

I think I think that we here sexuality of IT all needs to be put to bed. I do you want to talk about APEC though? So uh, you have a situation right now on safety is an obviously the whole countries talking about IT.

We went overnight from a dirty sort of file written health cape to like I don't want to say it's a utopia but uh it's clean like theyve claimed the streets I was downtown friday ah so before the conferences have been started so I pop my head up in, uh, in square there are cops everywhere. There's no, there are no more drug dealers. There are no more drug dealers in the station.

There were no drug dealers outside or around any of the side streets. There were no encounters. There was no crime. I went to the cvs how to get shampoo um there everything seemed to the cops inside the cbs. One was like, hello, give me a not i'm like, what is going on right now and I had forgotten about APEC, but that was what was going on.

So I you know fire off a little bit, a little tweet about IT and, uh, shit off like there are I get I receive a flood of messages from around the city like this is a cyril clean up initiative. IT seemed a little bit almost like a right when talking points me. I thought there's no way that because she's in pain, is coming into town.

They're finally cleaning up the city. That's just crazy. I can be I can be that simple. There's gonna sort of more to IT or i'm sure that they are going to say something like, you know, we've been working on this for a month that has nothing to do with this conference but gave newsom gets on stage and he's just like, yeah, we did IT for that reason um obviously we did IT for that reason.

When someone visits your house, you clean IT up I know folks say, oh, they're just cleaning up this place because all those fancy leaders are coming in the town. Um that's true because it's true, but it's also true for months and months and months prior APEC. We've have a different conversations begging the question to every taxpaying citizen of the city, like why the fuck do you do this for us? We pay you mother fuck er um so uh yeah what are your thoughts on on the clean city? Has anyone I mean, what what your your thoughts on this sort of overall politics of this maybe I think there's an interesting political question moving forward.

Um no, are they going to have to answer to this? Like like, is the city that clean? And I think sunday you a little bit sp s may be of that peace. Um what's going on here?

Well, i'm skeptical. Love IT because if you look on now, just go ready IT. And people on twitter and saying that they basically just pushed a lot of the homeless people out of downtown and into sort of other neighborhoods. Um they did clean up the city though like it's it's undeniable that they you know spent a lot of money and imported a lot of uh national guard people and people from the california uh highway police to come in police the city um and IT is really cynical.

I understand why people are pissed about IT because it's completely IT was IT was four APEC nominally but of course it's especially because shean thing is coming to town and Gavin newson incision in really get along I mean they they met in october um and chinese state media was like thriller about Gavin new m going to china and trying out their self driving cars and uh you know new son had a one on one meeting with she's been paying so I don't think it's at all far fetch. The people are saying that this was literally just because he was coming to town. Um I do think that I guess the cost of political action in action on this stuff has risen.

But my sense is that everyone always knew that if 3Francis go， city officials really wanted to, they could have ended all the insane going on. I mean, we're talking about a city government that actively funds harm reduction policies that basically enable people to use fant。 Um that for years had a district attorney who wasn't prosecuting any form of crime really. Um I mean in the city is just the people have known for a while that elected officials are essentially just getting rich well, you know the city kind of decades in the stoom loop.

but now once you know that the city is capable of doing something. So we know for sure the cable, the city, we know for sure the city is actually capable of policing. For example, you can stem crime.

I can do something about the drug dealing IT can do something about there used to be people just like selling all of the stolen goods they bought from, uh, from that drug store that I went into the union square around the block, done like you that you can to shut that stuff down. We know that IT can happen. And now that we know that that can happen um does that not change the calculus of politics little bit? The politicians can no longer say like look like we're just it's not about us. It's like, oh, it's it's the state it's the state law that that doesn't allow us to you know arrest people for less than however many dollars and charge them with a felling your things like that, that they can blame these policies because we all see what happens when they just increase the number of police IT. Seems like to me.

hopefully people don't have short memories on this. I think it's possible also that everybody kind of just forgets and this guts so up under the rug and we go back to business as usual in temperatures city politics but I do this is as usual is just to allow the opener drug markets back in and defensive to pop up again um yeah .

this is an interesting introduction. I don't want say to introduce right most of the country knows about sanctis o at this point um but it's like it's maybe a fun reintroduction to safely ces scope lights generally and how crazy things are here uh which brings us, I think, to the dream keeper initiative saga. Just publish an incredible peace on the city's funding, specifically surrounding one program.

And i'm just gona let you take that away. Like to tell us about what is the dream? Keep your initiative.

Where did IT begin? What does IT mean? Give us the dirty details .

yeah I mean, let's let's begin the beginning. Um so on june fourth, we to half after George flad was killed, the mayor sentences go with .

that speaking your protest. This had to them .

speaking of insufficient police. June for twenty twenty we gna have after George floyd, the mary antanas co. London breed and a supervisor, ashman walton, announced that they are going to redirect one hundred and twenty million dollars from the city's police department, which at the time was around seventeen percent of the police department's s budget, to Better support the african american community.

They don't say how they're going to do this. They just say we're taking this chunk money and we're relocating IT. Um and they then task the same Francisco human rights commission, which sounds made up but actually exists and gets twenty million dollars a year from the city.

Um IT was started back in the sixties uh to sort of health facilities efforts to segregate the city and has since meta tice zed into this massive um and I consider IT a money wandering complex. It's basically they get a bunch of grants to their nonprofit chronos a stands bly for like racial equity and like queer justice and that kind of thing. But basically, the mayan and shaman walton tasks the human rights commission with holding a series of listening sessions to figure out what the needs of the black community are.

And this is all happened during coverage. So all these listings sessions are online and of course, they're tended by people who know about these things and have the time to go to them and know that there is now hundreds of millions of dollars potentially up for grab. Um so they have these listening sessions.

And then a year and a half later, in twenty twenty one, the city announces that they're launching something called the dream keepers initiative. And so the dream keeper initiative, in its own words, is an intergenerational fort that aims to ensure that Frances goes diverse. Black communities are experiencing joy.

Feelings of safety. Advancing educationally and economically are holistically healthy under therion. Um and in the two years, the drinker I per s Operated IT has received over one hundred million dollars from the city that from .

the police .

yeah from the police. So the money ended up being allocated from a combination of the police department budget and the general fund. But yeah, a significant share of that money was coming from the police um and they've given this money out to a range of non profits um that I would arrange from like benie but useless to actively harmful and embroiled in massive fraud.

I want to pause really quick because on the police thing you're talk. So just I think it's important to highlight this. This money is coming from the police.

It's not some random policy. This is an everyone in on the left wanted to distance themselves from this now, but this is defunding. That's what this was.

This was defunded. The police. This was the act. This was the answer to defend the police. They actually did IT. You were talking a hundred million dollars that you took from the police and gave to assorted variety of fucking crazy shit and go off give us the details.

So i'll say like just to contextualize this, because I do think this story is much bigger than safran. Cisco people need to understand that. Like in twenty and twenty H, I was looking into this.

There were over there were almost a billion dollar of direct cuts from police departments across the country. I think the exact numbers, like eight hundred and fifty million dollars of direct cuts all over cities across the country. They did IT in Austin. They did in phildee hia. They did an important and they didn't in 3Francisco and you know flash forward train twenty three briefly 3Francisco has an extreme shortage of police officers right now in their department and they're now talking about raising taxes in an effort to refund the police department in the city so that's just part of high level fucking insanity。 Um but backer dream keeper um essentially what they did was give I mean I think of is like client chronister uh but they gave essentially reparations basically to people who showed up and ask for money. Um we I interviewed someone who runs a uh one woman media company called clarity media um and brand na can talk a little bit about his her youtube videos because he's watched some of them um but he got two hundred dollars from the city uh to run her media company. Two hundred or thousand dollars .

that have one hundred million is a drop in the bucket. Where do the rest?

Yeah, I mean, so the rest of the money, you have a lot. So the lion share IT went to the mayors office of housing and community development. Uh, and most of that goes to supporting something called the dream keeper. Uh let's see it's it's essentially it's a no holds bar loan program, the dream keep her down payment assistance loan program um which gives lower middle class black black inference signs up to a five hundred and thirty thousand dollars in no interest indefinitely deferred loans.

So free money are giving one hundred thirty thousand more gifts, gifts to people who want to buy a house. Yeah, based on the color of their skin.

Yeah exactly. That was twenty million of that that money. Um they've also given a ton of money to a bunch of non profits with connections to breed in chon wolton so they gave uh and Susan annalisa report on this she's an investigative reporter and sentences go um they gave four million dollars to Young community developers and anyone who's been following non profit from insurance to school will be familiar with the story of them they uh funded a program called interrupt predicting organize um where they basically identified at risk youth in send Frances co and place them in city jobs specifically with the department of public works and recently two graduates of their IPO program um were involved in a series of smashing grab robbery is one of them was involved in an armed robbery and then they I think stole a car and were involved in a police chase that ended in a crash one of them died the other one is now prison um and the director of this organization um is has been arrested on fraud charges the several cases like this where they gave money essentially to people uh or organizations with no dignity track record of success in their stated goals because they know uh breed in walton um and you know we we looked at in the article the homeless children's uh network which got two point two million dollars from them um but their evaluation report doesn't say anything about placing homeless children in homes they say that they provided mental health services to twenty six black people with that money. And how much money?

Two million .

dollars um and they held cultural events that are firmed and celebrated black wheer communities including a pride month event um and you know dream keeper has publicize their own. They basically evaluate themselves and how they're doing their work, and they publish this.

how they .

think they're doing in a fantastic job.

and the decide any more money.

they could do a Better job.

If they had more, let's double the budget.

They ask people who got money, how they feel about getting money. And here's what one person, the scale of investment and dream keeper is still not enough. According to one granted quote, you are in the desert and you get a glass of water. Sure, IT tastes good, but damn, I could use some more. And this is used as evidence that dreams keeper needs perpetual infusing infuses s of of sixty million doors year which is what is currently getting um all of this is in the context of an ongoing pushing safran ces go for reparations. Um if people been following that, the reparations advisory committee, which was started around the time the dream keeper came out, uh recently released a four hundred I think almost five hundred pages of recommendations for the city and one of the recommendations is that on top of the stream keeper money the city pay out a five million dollars .

to all black inference skins uh for a peace .

not so it's finally not per person per person yes lumps five million dollar payments to address pyto cle and equity um .

in sentences ces go which exists in a state that never had slavery yeah .

I am actually wondering. I mean really with all of that but like especially the housing thing, how does that not violate the fair housing act if you were giving prevent? Well.

here's what I I agree with. First, that was a thing that I kicked into as well on the as I was really something ece for the first time. I am willing to bet none of this has been chAllenged in court because people don't really know about IT.

It's it's like a great like a then was really paying attention to this should it's just like, oh, crazy sanford cisco and was twenty twenty and all this stuff in twenty, twenty, you couldn't chAllenge anything publicly. So no one wanted to even report on this stuff. And and now is just kind of lost to the waste of that, that people considered to be some Francisco, you know, people just considered to be a black hole where crazy things happen.

IT is what IT is. But at this point, I yeah I don't know how this is, how this is going to hold up in cord and IT seems really shocking to me. It's a really incredible scandal.

I mean, I think you need someone with the sort of gumption to take on this racial justice piece essentially because I think this is an issue that a lot of people don't want to touch. Like if you criticize dream keeper and you know, IT sounds like you're criticizing .

a black ware voices .

who just want joy.

exactly. You don't want black ware .

voices to experience joy.

I don't know. For hundred .

thousand dollar lar downy's S I might to drink not three hundred.

over five hundred IT was five hundred one plus because tell you up to eight hundreds. Somehow I know what the math .

doesn't really add up because they say that they were giving so but but essentially they say they are giving um loans of up to five hundred thousand dollars and then quote te wealth building grants which reduce direct cast transfers of thirty thousand dollars to these people um but then they say that they helped they use that twenty million dollars to help around twenty two families owe their homes with three more families on the way and that math averages out to around eight hundred thousand dollars that .

probably includes whatever staff they are associated with thing. They could be a lot of them and probably have a pension. So is that a lifetime value? Or what are we talking here? This is, the other thing is like, so all this sounds really bad.

I IT needs to be investigated thoroughly. Ly, by the city of probably not the city, probably I at this point, the city man, like we need some, we need help from the outside. We need someone to ly in and take care of shit.

But I wonder if you peel IT back, how much of this is actually going to anybody in need? And how much of IT is just corruption? How much and I consider that to be government jobs that don't do anything, friends of the mayor um people who buying votes to give giving money to on profits that don't do anything just to buy their votes, effectively living these these do campaigning for them um it's unofficial, but that is that's what they are doing in the election season.

Like how much of the money is going to that? It's uh, I think probably quite a lot, probably most of IT. Um it's really thing to be good.

It's hard to say because they're like sandri said, their impact assessments are made by consultants that they themselves higher and for example, with the the child was a ship called about the the homes child's network. Their impact assessments don't even track how many kids they're putting up in homes. They track how many um you know how many contacts they made in the L G B T Q community. That's one of the thanks they're tracking. So it's like impossible to know what's happening with it's hard to not conclude that this this money is the centrally just being wasted to make work for for a latter of uh, government employees and a institutions or organizations that they they contract to consult for them.

Yeah I mean, I I think that dream keeper to me just epidemic es, how this parasite bureaucrats and non profit workers expands because none of these people seem to be adding IT seems like you know even in a generous assessment of what they're doing for every two million dollars you give them maybe one hundred thousand of that goes to like something that you could dem uh meaningful and helping people in need um dream keeper created like thirty new government jobs I think um they have their own department.

They have their own director um and he makes almost ten thousand hours a year and it's like, you know this is a class of people who doesn't I mean, I don't know what other sort of skills they have to add to the economy. There's there their entire um careers are defined by this kind of like producing impact reports, endless bearcroft jargon. They're just a parasitic class in our society that unfortunately controls hundreds, millions of dollars, if not billions and .

billions and differences scope. So I think this is really the one of two or three of the major problems facing, not just sentence is go, but I think every city in the country, the money that we that our tax dollars are supposed to be going towards to fix whatever number of things from public housing to homeless ness to transit education, there's an assumption on path of the public that if you raise taxes more money, it's going to those things.

And um it's just not it's it's clearly not I think you could look around and just see the evidence of the fact that it's not to school school IT has a budget of close, maybe over thirteen billion dollars at this point. IT doesn't add up. The the the the math doesn't make any sense.

Where are the resources going? And it's like what's s going to this classic people that you're talking about? And I think I think they really have to be just completely to fund IT.

I think that there has to be some kind of law at this point that prohibits the funding of non profits, the government funding of non profits, tax dollars that people that are being raised to solve problems have to be spent by the government to solve those problems. I think this is actually probably a left is to critique all this. This is like probably what I think marxists believe. Because at this point, having spent so much time in san Francisco, i'm not even asking for lower taxes. I'm just like this money should go towards the things the people are saying the money is going towards, uh, river actually on that thought I mean, this is very much your .

territory yeah um I mean, I think like a status approach inside this sort like decentralized thing, what we're paying forward about getting somebody something to do IT. I mean that would be that is a traditionally more of like left wing position um but I think what's interesting with all this is that is essentially the same type of corruption that always existed in amErica like during the guilty age.

IT was like, if you want to build like a giant building or like a park, or like uh a train or whatever is like, you know, you had to pay off the bob. You have to pay off the union boss, you have to pay off like all of these people are whatever. But at the innovated the very least you would have like a train or a bus line or um you know gy the M I stay building or whatever.

And now it's like we pay. We we're also doing the corruption thing, but we just don't get anything out. And so like I I mean, I think IT back to I agree that like there's something more pernicious ous about non profits than even like the sort of government subsidies, uh, government subsidies like private for proper corporations, which I don't care for that either. But generally speaking, they do produce something because they have to sell something to the market or they have to like contractual, you know complete a service, can not complete A A building or or whenever um and when IT comes a non profit, there's basically no it's likely I hand shaking my holker good person and they're probably not right.

It's not it's also we have this perception that they don't have much money. We have this perception that that on profits to these poor people who are just trying to do good in the world, and it's actually like the city y's spending an enormous amount of money on this that should be spent on the many problems that it's facing.

And uh, I just think it's I I don't believe that if people look at this, they won't see the reality that we're talking about. Now I think more people to have to kind of think about IT this way, they have to kind of we have to pull the court mac. We like, listen, be of the dynamics.

This is where the money is going, is not going to the problems like dolge. You want the money to go to the problems? The answer obviously will be yes. I just maybe i'm just too optimistic, but I really believe that if people just knew that this was happening, IT would bother them.

yeah. And I would just add that like this is happening, I most familiar inferences co, but specifically intended ces go. This is happening across the board in like every respective city government. This is how they handle homelessness in general, is by contracting to non profits. Um that then take the money and rich themselves and you know this is part of this .

massive holders industrial complex IT keeps of the work working .

yeah yeah and and they do IT with their department of public health. Um and I I think that people my sense is that a lot of people don't really have the time, probably because they have actual jobs and our contribution into the economy um to look past the nice sounding uh, rhetoric that these nonprofits kind of package themselves up in. It's like, oh, the city is giving money to the homeless children's network that sounds great. Like how you imagine like homeless children getting taken into a warm loving home and you're like, i'm glad that my tax, my taxpayer dollars are going toward this. Um and people don't have time to read the fucking insane evaluation report that someone you know put together um from a subcontracted a advisory firm and realized that this is not doing anything yeah they .

also don't stop to thing and realized like what is this chery actually going to do? Because if you have like a single on a company child living on the street, like that child is a ward of the state, like we will become a world of the state legally.

And basically every state law under every city law that I can think of, like, so what what are they actually going to do? And if we do have that also begs the question to if there's a need for um a homeless child charity, which apparently there's not since they are not helping homeless children. But IT does big the question like how bad is state failure you're gotten that we have like literal, like Victorian street or genes running around you know um it's like really gram.

This is the central issue is that the city is the government itself is it's not capable of doing anything.

And so I often have make the argument that all of the homeless money should go IT should stay IT inside of the city government should be one director in charge of all of IT the entire budget, let's say IT was six hundred million plus dollars a year that one person should be in charge of IT their job should be to eradicate ate homelessness as a concept in the city should never exist again um I even outline ways that they could potentially do this but and if they don't achieve these things they should be fired but the assumption in all of this that is not fair is that there is even one person in the city government who could actually manage this problem. And there's not. We have the intellectual d team running the critical infrastructure of our entire country. And I don't know how to solve that problem because he aren't elected positions. So this is, these are the people who have just like colonized the city government and uh and reached all of the neutrals out of out of the system so well.

And they did they did just clean up every cisco for APEC. So somebody somewhere in the government do I think the state came .

in through a lot of money at IT, it's like a shot of it's like when someone's having a drug overdose or something and you give Michelle drine, I think that will be just um I don't think it's I don't think the heart is healthy.

I think there is also they showed the will to move people into another area of the city, which they never have. They never they are always like we can do that. You know it's just it's not acceptable to to move people out of the city, but they sure that they they could yeah.

bob, I guess we want to see one thing I wanted to talk about very briefly well, not that briefly because we going into the question of nationalism, uh, last week was the republican national debate or the republican debate for the presidential candidates。 And I think so are swarming around that you have you have all of your your candidates making their pitch for the country.

Um nicki Haley suggested not on the stage IT was after was maybe a few days ago. Um her plane for social media would be to pin the anonymous accounts so to ban animal to kind of go after the ship posters obviously the internet react seriously. This is like he came SHE came for like the life blood of the internet the member um SHE since backtrack.

But it's just it's got me thinking about, uh, sort of relationship the bridge between tech and these candidates and kind of how I think about taking these candidates as I was washing the debate. Um I had a couple choice comments about the bec and every time I do this, I get a lot of push back for people who seem confused about this. They're like, you know, how could you go after the bet? He seems he's like the he's the strange, dark orse candidate.

He's the outsider. He is the tech guy. He's the amErica first guy.

These things, for whatever reason, by many of our readers, are clock as like pirate wires, y kinds of things, things that I would like, things that maybe some of you people would like. So here IT is. And I also, I usually don't talk about the bag.

I don't want to get that much international politics on to say I think it's kind of stupid and impossible to really put your to shape in anyway. I like the local focus when I can but um I do think it's worth dressed in the the the the best stuff. I don't believe him like I just think he's a bucket and fraud.

Um I don't believe anything he says and I for me IT comes down to just there are a couple of things just in total conflict with with each other so the very first thing that I I noticed that may be kind of double click on this guy IT was the moment that uh silicone ley bank was collapsing。 And potentially, like half of the startups in tech, we're going to go out of business because they have their money in a back. And at this point, you have naturally a conversation about what the state's role should be here, if any, and your hardline libertarian beliefs, there should be no role at all.

The banks should fail, and that's the market correcting itself. And if you were dumb in up to put your bet, your money in this bank, you deserve to lose IT. Maybe you don't t maybe that's sad, but you kind of half to lose IT.

I used to be a libertarian, an I can wrap my mind around that position. I understand where they're coming from. I no longer believe that, but I I get the position.

On the other hand, you have a more a more nationalistic approach, which is like um we need to do whatever is I think best for the country, whatever is going to keep the country healthy, the economy sound, this is a crisis moment if you don't um if you don't guarantee the the people who have their have held their money in the bank, there's going to be a national bank run and we're facing a major economic calamity. You have to stem at all. You have to stop that.

You have to build trust in the system, in the government itself should guarantee that trust vic takes vivid, who is the amErica first nationalist guy. He takes a libertarian position at first, is like the debt should be wiped out, the n of the deter, he's like the people who held their money. That bank should be wiped out.

That's just a free market. IT is what IT is. There's a lot of push back on this.

What about a national bank run and he says will bail everybody else will be guaranteed every other bank, every the person, just not that bank um that was immediately that struck me as immediately ino here and IT leads later on to a more recent position, which I think is a telling in the exact same way the question of tiktok, which the VC believed should be banned for a while until he had dinner with jack paul. He has dinner with jake paul. And he decides tiktok is important because the kids love tiktok and it's the free market.

And if americans want to compete with tiktok, they should be able to r tech companies should simply compete with them in in a free, open market. The problem, of course, is that all of our software is banned in china, so the chinese are permitted to sell on incumbent into our market while we are prohibited from selling into their market. It's not a fair fight.

And the nationalist response, the amErica first response here would be the response that was really kind of champion by both berny Sanders and Donald trump in twenty sixteen, which is there should be free trade or not there. There should be not free trade but fair trade. There should not be a trade imbaLance of this kind. We shouldn't be doing things that are clearly not in the interest of, uh, of amErica when IT comes to something like trade you can't hide behind like oh, it's the free market um well, I guess you could if you're a libertarian, but you I guess you could but you shouldn't was was the original position. And my problem with the sec is he says he's in actually he says he's amErica first, he's this protect guy and yet these positions don't benefit anybody other than china.

Now that would be obnoxious to me if he was just a globalist in um I I don't that is not my vibe at this point uh but in comparison with this was so then that position is covered by his net his foreign policy position, which is classically nationalist or at least the way that is presenting right now on largely the the right wing and a little bit of the left wing, much less on the left wing, which is a more bring the troops home. We shouldn't be anywhere else again, a position that I can wrap my head around but only if you actually believe in everything else that comes with that, including things like trade and you know domestic economic policy. But he's not it's this weird combination of things that when you sort of string them all together, has one beneficiary and it's not the united states, it's china. And that's my problem with the avec is I just I don't believe IT. Um I also find them extremely fuck and tedious like I .

just don't like way he talks annoying you know who he is is uh his pee budgeted in his inform? Like not not necessarily anything to do with his opinions.

It's the way he states his opinions, his view of himself just like kind of like this honister like you know, he's wanted to be presidents and he was like fifteen and like I rever there's like a video actually of in like two thousand and four like some presidential debate or whatever would they like went to harve and they were like letting uh like the harvard kids like asked questions to john Carrier and bosh ever and you know who appeared in both at at the same of IT the VC rosali people to yet literally like they were at the same school at the same time, both just like. You know, like shirt talked in, like dorky looking. You know like skinny college guys, like asking questions.

John Carry about foreign icy human being is a lot .

of behavior. And like, but he's trying to, I think, sort of like he's seem like what god has done for triumph, you know, once that for him as well and at that is so he's trying to do kind of like a trump thing these that will drop up really consistent. So I don't have to be either. It's I get that people White all truck .

trump s funny in the first place.

And I actually.

do you think that trump is consistent relatively on national alist stuff, at least in rhetoric, like not really, really, but in retaliation. And like if if the bec's not consisted in reddit, because I don't actually believe this is the fit, like I don't I agree with you. I think he's a model congress kid.

I think he's that is the same as people to judge. These are people who their primary goal was to be empower as an adult and they are now both very close to that. Um and it's like you look around and you adopt the the positions that are resonating and you wear them like, I don't know ah the skin of last season's dead candidate.

And it's it's just not inspiring to me. And I think maybe what's worse is i'm just like sort of somewhat personally agreement about the whole thing because I see so many of my friends um falling for IT. You know it's like fake outsider thing and uh, it's just bother me. He's good and debate you know he's this kind of person. He rise me a venture peur a little bit where they can talk they you just just talk for sixty seconds on something at the end of those sixty seconds you're like that sounds right to me probably he's probably right and you know you just give up it's like a ji mind trick or something um but um yeah this doesn't work on me or that one doesn't work on me. I'm sure I fall for all sorts of july mind tricks.

Yeah what do you think about naked? He .

nickey hai, I don't think that the anonymous ship poster should be put in prison. That's what i'll maybe .

just start there, nick hai, but what his name is, like numero room sa or some shit, it's not nickey fucked in the cars are last, not her name.

It's like, talk about the ship poster thing. No, because so that's what I think is to be shared able to her on this. If the government should have no place here at all, you should not be banning anonymity.

This is, you know, the american intellectual history begins an anonymity and it's like, basically, you know, the eighteen centuries version of ship posters attacking each other in the press much more equal and insight ful. But none, there's antivari think, serves a purpose. IT would be more civil if people had their name next to the things that they were saying.

I think, yeah, I I understand the impulse took to sort of what that I, A few friends, text me about this and they were kind of saying the same thing they also more and what not you do have boomers who don't seem to care about this and and they have their name whatever comes to lied yes yeah yeah they they don't seem to really care at all. Um they're not they're not afraid of this um in any way they would not impact them. But I don't know. I can see where she's coming if I can see where she's coming with the request with like wouldn't IT be nice if I think the the friend thing about IT was the the frame that potentially this would be you know, the law and that is a as a hard no for me um I know what do I think about the show posting stuff?

She's fucking insane. Ah I don't I don't see the I think IT was an insane thing to say mean because her point was that they wanted he wanted to find a way to prosecute an ultimate ship posters essentially um and of course you know the federal papers are writing anonymous ly and as you're saying like uh republish analysis rather I think it's part of this worrying push now to sort of prosecute hate speech when they do IT in britain, you know and we could go easily go down that path if if there's enough of a political appetite for IT. But I just think it's like we shouldn't even be entertaining this thought like it's one thing to sort of say, oh, we should be more curious to each other online and that's a sort of adorable civic for us all to strive toward but to think about involving law enforcement in IT um is really scary um and unhinged um I think he has this .

already that a lot of people have in politics that resonate, which is she's good at talking about the things that he cares about SHE goes off about foreign policy and SHE sounds really reasonable and I think the average person just tuning and doesn't necessarily have an opinion on any of this. And so someone sounds like they know they're they're like, oh, that person that was going on and maybe vote for them.

And that happens with the work that happens with every politician. I just already care necessarily how they say things. I care about what they're saying um rivers are cut off um I mean.

I think she's very good at saying kind of in saying things very confidently. You know what I mean like that sort like you know like her too. I think she's like listed like five different countries you thinks we should go to war with now and and you just says that like so competently every time that people are like, yeah but they like to actually never agree to that and practice they be like way what the fuck why are we going to war with no coach stand or whatever you just SHE wants, you know and it's like .

if there's.

I don't know, I find her to be phony in a different way that I find the fact to be phony because this is very is just got this like. I don't know. It's it's it's a very like female and like older school form of like fake politician where it's it's a lot more like convincing.

It's like SHE sounds like a politician, you know what I mean? Um the vex sounds like a guy who's talking about politics. Yeah he says that he could be a podcasts he would have her pocket would be terrible. But like if shows like you know give you a speech of the state department or whatever, like people would be like o that's part of the course. I I get that and I think there's like something comforting about that I guess, uh, that sort of like dignified. Statesmen, even if the E N O there drag you into a war, whatever, like at least they sound like they know what they're doing and they're not um I don't know, following a sleep at the podium like our current president or I I mean, I think people thought mp was funny, but after a while, IT does. In certain situations I was like, I don't know if he can handle this, you know I mean, like IT .

was kind yeah I think the r debates, the the the medium of debate contributes to a lot of this. They don't have much time, and so people don't have much time with them to hear them them think or or speak what they think. I think I I would like to see just the total abolition of the current debate format.

It's not helpful for anybody to wash. These people speak for thirty seconds on like their health care policy. What is the point of this is it's good for networks, is good for selling ads. You have an hour, two hours and set commercial breaks that matter. This should be, this should be not run by major media companies that should be just done on public television IT should be three hours.

Uh people who are running for office should have you know ten minutes to talk about a specific policy proposal where bottle should be five minutes and um we should just have an actual conversation. You know you can't you can't fake you like you can fake a sound by but you can't fake actual rigorous back and forth. At some point, people are just going to start talking and telling you what they think and that's really what I want to understand and see.

And um I think you will be more helpful. I think I think a lot more time and IT should be a much more grilling in terms of you have. To actually tell us stuff rather than just otherwise in what is what are we supposed to do as an audience.

Of course, it's IT comes down to this. What vibe do I like Better? Who feels more like a president? Because that's all they're really giving us and that's by design IT just as have to be.

So I don't understand why IT is IT. IT does not have to be this stupid. Politics is not have to be this dumb.

And it's not it's really and we always focus on canada because they're right there in front of us begging to be a but um it's the medium is the actual structure around them that forces this stupidity to happen. This is television. This is, this is intellectual alem in the age of television is bait for this. You there are exceptions that you can make but but you have to actually think IT through and it's it's bleak that no one that he wants to .

do that yeah and strAngely, they do this same format even when he gets to the general. There's only like two candidates. They still only give them like two and speak, which is insane because if you remember a couple of years ago, I think they stopped doing this. But um CNN would like randomly do these debates between uh, people in congress like one time they did like ted cruise and bernie Sanders but they let him talk for like ten minutes each and then they would like respond to each other and like IT was actually like a lot more interesting to watch on the regular debate because I I actually got to talk and they actually seem to be somewhat having a dialogue with each other um in a way that legally artificial in debate.

In the presidential debate months from the election, both parties believe the stakes are too high. They don't want to take risks, but they have to seem like they're strong enough to go out there and and debate the issues. So this is weird um packed.

I think that they make with each other. Probably not I don't see them so that they're talking like, hey, how do we not tell the american people anything? I don't think it's are a real experiences.

I think they just know up both parties what they want, as little risk as possible. And they want room. Both parties have an incentive to just have a room for sound bites because they can craft those ahead of time.

Those can be their commercials, like a quick little take a quick little tip for tat on stage can be replaced as a commercial very easily um and and that's the game that we're all stuck in. And I don't know how IT changes other than we have to demand more as voters. Uh but I don't know even even .

be general election debates um assuming by the problem because trump isn't doing the ones now, which i'm probably smart on home because .

why would .

you so why would you um and I think that said stuff in the past, but he doesn't want to debate trial because like jancso something to be wrong about that but um I don't know I have serious doubts as to whether or not they will actually debate each other.

I will say that .

what i'm not going .

to do is be this pair. I know that if this happens there is going to be a huge up and never in american history, and this is essential american institution. It's not these debates are useless and so we don't actually need them. And if that doesn't happen, I won't care. We get nothing from the in their current in their current form.

Um so yeah I just think I don't only hear I do you want to say though before because this is an interesting topic on, uh we were collegial key into IT on the republican side specifically, there is this interesting divide on the question of nationalism or the role of amErica in the world. I would say maybe steel in both to still in both sides, maybe both sides or are amErica first. But one side believes that IT is in america's interest to take a central role in maintaining order globally and the other side believes IT is in america's interests to kind of come home. Um one place where we've really, really seen this playing out in a kind of cartoonish, ridiculous way just yesterday. Crazy cat fight between bench pero and canes orange river, I would love you to kind of break that drama down for us.

okay? So on november fourteen or two days ago, bench peo was spotted at event there's a video circulating matter of where he was asked about canas o ends his his co worker candis oenone at the daily while her .

comments .

on your right bin apparently does not run. He's not like in charge of like the day to day anymore. He he is a co founder but he's and I get like some ceremonial like editor title or something. Um I think if he was still in charge, you would proudly not be working very more but anyway can't so than some of these other people, they bit sort of like they are not exactly like really criticizing is real. Their position from what I understand, is that. They don't think the united city should be involved can its own said that you know in her interview a talking carl son after you um all this blow up and SHE said that you israel is a right to give A A A moss but like I should be called anti semi fully bad about you know to baLance children and so makes about the fact but this is this completely blown up h out of proportion. The girls are fighting the goals are fighting .

really bad um camera after .

that video came out, Candy posted a viable verse about um it's like something from the sermon on the mall .

saying you can't sir rog and at the same time what IT takes to to be like i'm gonna quote fucking jesus Christ right now like I this my fight with bench pro is so important that i'm .

invoking Christ vega very vegan three minute for the video was posted she's posting from the book of Matthew um and um well .

he he quote eats her and says, can is if you feel that taking money from the daily wire somehow comes between you and god by all .

means thank you for thank you for finding me and then he goes on tucker and she's like, know he supported no he supported the vaccines as bombs of pediatric SHE thinks SHE .

yeah he invoked his mom as a doctor as a reason that he is in bed with big farmer. He should think his .

mom is doctor so of course supports big far right. That's a crazy thing to say.

There are a lot of things going on with this. Think the key one is the divide on the, on the, on the I wanted see the far right, but on the right on the issue of nationalism, what that is. And ben, and can this take two very different approaches there? They both have a lot of people in their corner. Ben is more institutional, generally speaking. And I think that the daily wire is also fracture on this issue, but it's kind of as far right as you can go in media at this point.

There's like beyond that is i'm not saying morally like you guys go off do whatever you want to do, but i'm saying just if you want any kind of tether to institutional whatever um the daily wire is not even that but this is far you're not going to have as much influence on mainstream republic public politics if you leave. What been uh, dominic said was I think I have fun waiting through the swamp or something of a of info wars which is act it's he's saying like you know I can is you leave the daily wire in a half about this issue and you're not getting a job at something like other comparable place is there is no other comparable place. You'll have a show on twitter, for example or possibly um you'll do your own youtube thing that i'll probably get banned by the platform, lets be honest eventually.

Um or you know you have Alice jone's path, but that was kind of IT like a that is there's nowhere else to go. I think they're being a little bit shareable to canis. I mean, he was definitely she's that's a that's a lot coming at you.

And I think that, ben, we don't really know it's happening behind the scenes. Uh, we don't know what provoked this. We don't know what conversations they've had.

Um SHE also, I mean, he talked about SHE evoking cries. She's like blaming the israelis for blowing up churches. I think the subtext there is, but the idea of did say that they did.

I don't think purpose did so that .

we don't care. We want to kill Christians, of course not like this is a complicated situation. There's weapons and should underneath all of these things like there are any number of things going on like no one is no one is blowing up churches on purpose.

Um it's not like or whatever we collect table. These conversations I not trying to have like an israel palestine debate i'm saying from their perspectives like that is this is about, I think, just america's role in the world. They find amenta disagree ben's IT as enthusiasm and very personally for obvious and understanding able reasons affected by this can IT doesn't care and where else SHE gonna a go?

Like like, where does that really far right stuff go like that? I think a valid question. What have I hit a point where her you just there's nowhere else to go for you?

Yeah, I I I don't think that she's like in ony territory, but I think that there's like IT really this all started as far as I can tell, whenever the bombing at that church in gaza happened, which kind of blew up. I think in the right wing media, the guys it's .

been like this from the very .

thing how how this escalated is that like some somebody made a comment about IT and then somebody got like accused being anti symmetry. IT was truly curr actually is very promising, al.

And so I think that there's like a reflective sort of like even though I wasn't that many people doing IT, there's like this reflects of um thing that these that a lot of people and like sort of candles are inside of the right, have to like any sort of like ad hominum like an accusation of bigger because of like be alarm and all of that where they just like they get like a little bit IT like triggered something in them and I agree, I think that that has a lot to do with this true or it's like they don't even really care that much. Just just like they don't like that. They feel like they can say whatever they, anna, say.

I think it's been simmering from the very big you could why watch chemist OS come out on this issue day right after everything happened and you could tell that SHE was holding stuff back, that SHE wasn't on the side of of israel was he was a very apparent by her rhetoric. And I imagine for them, that was infuriating, because this is the house that he built.

And here he is on his platform in his mind, you know, saying things that he believes to be completely apparent, or, you know, taking a side of things that he believes to be completely apparent. I think behind the scenes, that was probably a super toxic environment. And a and I just the presentation is built and built and built another fighting, and they're creating this very interesting conversation on the right, like what is the future of the right? What I really want to know is what is Donald trumps perspective on this? He's been very quiet on israel palace time.

He did say that that israeli um are doing like bad P R or something.

That is the way you would think about.

Yeah just such a tromps thing to say. He was like he was like they're not doing the best to so like um .

well excited for him to get back in the arena and um stir up all sorts of insane I on drawer in the months to come. Uh spend real got you guys next week for a special thanksgiving edition of the pod is actually just uh i'll be sharing an interview that um I I already did so catch up there and see you with another episode week after.