Tok Blocked! TikTok “Ban” Is Here - Everything You Need To Know
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Americans using tiktok art risk of having their data harvested by the chinese government for any number of concerns.

China is setting up their own rules of the road. We seen whistleblowers come out at saying that ccp involve. We've seen that pong conn.

Protesters were caught up and dragnets because of tiktok data, the political side of the White house. You open up a tiktok account the way out literally a month ago on the super bowl. If you try to open a tiktok APP, IT will all allow you to access the up unless you call your congress. I will say when i'm worried about is that individual members could get picked up because their donors, in a couple big donors who i've invested about thirty two billion hours in, in tiktok in five, tiktok is like the first on deck. But like there are some other companies that we should be looking at further, and I hope this kind of love us to go further with them.

What's up, guys? Welcome back to the pod. We have packed one for you today, starting right up front with what the hell is going on with tiktok um madness and washington D C.

Uh today, really you were recording thursday. This is coming out friday. So yesterday, max and washington, D C. But really all week um from the moment the news broke, uh the company there's a now a bilin clay where the company may be forced to device so sell from its china based uh parent company bite dance.

So to sort of talk about all of that, these first twenty minutes I want to hit olitic tock news. Um we brought in Nathan limor so special guest today. Hi Nathan maan. S D CEO of fixing AR strategies, which is a particular m providing like comes and policy device to clients in the telecom and infrastructure space.

But before that, before he started his firm, he served as policy advisor to a jeep pie of the fcc and worked on a hill as a legislative vy to representative Justin a. marsh. Basically, he's a swap creature, which is why he's here today a dispatch from the swap um let's get into IT man tiktok.

I just saw tiktok actually declaring IT a ban, which I thought was funny. Um there's like sort of straight propaganda mode. There's a lot, by the way, of interesting prop the stuff to to interesting prop again, the threads, I think to pull here everything from obviously the way they're communicating to, I think really the way they are lobbying and the people who are lobbying on their behalf.

But before that, we do have to disk. So I think the basics high level, what is happening here, I know that there was a close session was IT last week that kind seems to trigger all of this. Can you tell a little bit bit about that um and sort of what is in play right now? And then after this sort of general picture, what is in play um you know well today yeah .

so this week is really been crazy. Um I had heard for several months that often on the reconversion tions to see republicans and democrats about what a tiktok legislation could look like. Um as you may know um this has been ongoing debate uh over the past five five or six years.

Uh president trump a try to ban them through a method they ve got thrown out in court. There was the restrict act in the senate a couple years ago. They got some support but never got a hearing, never got a mark up um in there. A lot of kind of major flaws with the way that they were going about this. And so there are many ways to skin nat and dc.

And so this is the latest kind of a version, but it's different about IT is how it's tailor the bill which is called protecting americans from foregone verse at adversary controlled applications act which is a terribly written name um basically is about the uh a coin uh diversity of bite dance, the chinese um own company that actually you Operates a tiktok um and evasive set a date for a diversity. And if they don't meet that criteria of our divaina within a certain matter time, then they would a con. The aster's and cloud service cities do not provide services.

And so what was facing about this, how it's tailor in a way that IT applies a tiktok. We could also point other foreign adversarial own companies that are doing this type of bad conduct and questionable conduct that that we see tiktok doing. Um it's about the conduct.

Its not about the content on the platform, which something that some people have wanted to do to go after the content, whether it's like you know will hear people singing and dancing or whether it's like kids on there, whatever is no, this is a separate conversation. It's about the conduct of the company. And as you said last week, there was a really um evidently classified hearing that really uh last miles a day really concerning for a lot of people and IT really kicks out this this conversation in the high gear on capital IT has me pretty crazy.

Whatever that discovered last week. I an we have no idea so I know maybe something worth speculating, but I I will to say that it's not as if we have no evidence of the sv there are is endless reported on this um out of you know everywhere from if you you're right wing outlets to your obviously sort of centuries left winging outlets you the near times like endlessly recording you know point by point um every single time a story breaks where someone uh from the company has sent data back to my land in china including after so what is face uh the CEO of tiktok famously testified the first time not this the most recent one um and make his sort of promise never to do that.

They have this sort of program to I think we call project texas where which is fucking crazy um where they you like the most jingles tic per american name ever um where they're going to a sort of ban data sort of moving from tiktok back to my lin china there. IT has moved since we know that um or at least there's been reporting about this. So it's like what could IT be IT actually worse than that to have sort of Spark so much interest um but certainly now we're here what actually to happen for, uh, the device tor to be forced? There's a vote today who is voting and are that there's not a vote today. They're discussing the vote today and the vote will come in the next two weeks, right?

Yeah, it's got to mark up. So so the committee of jurisdiction, the energy commerce, can be in the house actually, to mark this up. This is like step one, to get cute vote.

You can get a vote in the house four unless you go through a committee again. No tiktok bill has ever been through a community before. So this is pretty fascinating.

So they're going to mark up. They released IT two days ago. They knew they have the votes ready to go for the markup. So the markup is thursday um and from what i've been told again i'm recording before, it's actually happened. They're going into executives this a session throughout the day to deal with various classified aspects of what is going on to make sure they get this right.

Um and so you're going to see or the course the day then coming in, coming out press, coming in, coming out conversations about what this will look like and from when I my source to sell me and unless something changes that I am not aware of um we're gona have a vote that that passed this um bill probably isn't changes I can imagine some definition changes in questions about what the qualified message or means um so when they covered entities more further clarification for that but um in in conversation with the house leadership uh both the majority leader's office and the speakers office, they're working with their democratic counterparts. They plan on once this bill is passed in the markup to bring IT to the four. Now question is timing.

Next week, there are only in session for three days because there's a retreat for some members of congress. Look, members of congress like the vacation just like you um and then uh the five week there there may be time. So they have a session uh through the next couple weeks where they're y're trying to get this through. Um the other question is where the senate pick IT up, will they bring up their own cotton ian version to go through the senate and community process and then pass a later a senate full committee? Our first version would .

do you have any sense what's ever of what could have been revealed last week? I mean, there are you're hearing any rumors do like I don't want to speculate, but I would love for you to speculate.

All great. I'm here to speculate. This is my job. This is onerous. So I know that there are a number of D O J investigations into the treatment of of uh a conduct data for and where that dad is going, particularly because I remember by dance is is actually responsible for the uh national uh counter intelligence measures that china has so they at the end over any data they have.

And so my hunch, again, totally gusting, is that there is something about um the d oj investigation that may have found that yes, this data is in fact going to the ccp. We've seen whistle bowlers come out saying that ccp involved. We have seen that her hongkong protesters were caught up dragon nets because of tiktok data. So I think there is something in that orbit that they have now confirmed or they are therefore to show and demonstrate members and that has really just changed their opinion.

And I do want to kind of go back and double click on something you were talking about mention, which was um that if you are running a company in china, IT is the law. You have to give data to the C C. P.

And this is something I think a lot of the push back against any kind of tiktok legislation comes from a place of ignorance, economy with them in sult way. I mean, literally, people are ignorant of what of what exists in china. So if you have this connection, you have they are like separate from the question of, like, oh, do you have a family in china? Then you you should like the fact to compromise because that's over the scary place to be in.

Demands can be made if you are whenever table that it's literally the law in china or bite, dance to hand over any information they want. Now there's a question of whether or not tiktok is sending things over, but we know they are that's definitely happening. So um you're already at you. We are americans using tiktok art risk of having their data harvested by the chinese government for any number of concerts.

Then there is a separate question that I find compelling um and it's not the one that I feel like most maybe sort of you often see what you also little too earlier you see a lot of more right of center talking heads talking about um the propaganda driver whatever the propaganda element of tiktok. Here is a giant question mark. honest.

I have no idea how the algorithm works. I have no idea what the the link is between china and tiktok. Like I kind of think it's just about as left wing as most crazy Young people are left wing. And I kind of thing to crazy life wing stuff on that APP is being amplified in the way that other are crazy shit on other apps is being amplified.

Algorithms, mics, which is just like crazy things, get attention on on the APP don't know, maybe not don't care this thing that I care about more than, uh, I think honestly more than even the spying um is just the trade disparity here. The idea that that every single social media company, american social media companies banned in china and now tiktok, which is control owned by by dance, is publicly talking about the value of the first amendment. And competition.

And i've said this before, this is kind of a point where are really departed from libertarians. M, this is one of the main points. I think that kind of shook me away from IT.

We cannot have a situation in amErica where, uh, the entire world is permitted to compete in our market, but we are not permitted to compete a broad. This is a total trade baLance IT makes no sense. I don't know why we've ever tolerated IT.

Um and then it's like especially stupid when we know that a hostile foreign government is using the tool to spy on americans. So I don't know. I maybe just this is like a lot of opinion I dispute out. So if anyone would like to push back or say, no, no, we need tiktok to be here. Um I would love to hear from you.

I I wouldn't say that, but I went agree with you and I would also say that the supplies you will to the law in ford of the painting property offerings by non permanent resident chinese nationals because china you have to live. You can even own property if you're for there there and you have to live there for twelve, much just to this for seventy five years or whatever, which is because they do to buying um and you can rented out.

I think it's a good point. There are all of these bizarre disparities. It's like someone coming to today, i'm a tweet of mind about this and they were like, it's it's like A G code in liberalism, right? Like we have these very free governments is from the freest in the history of the world in many of respect.

Certainly IT comes to things like this when IT comes to property and speech and civil liberties and, uh, a toilet arian government that makes us very easy pray in a lot of strange asia metrical ways to its tell italian government trade is one obvious place uh this whatever the fuck this property situation is, is another um I wonder how much of this may do you hear people talking about? Uh, in dc a lot of people are like, no are is IT are they all sort of like me? Like no one like the spying that is bad, but like it's also a giant question mark, whether there are all these sort of obvious other reasons maybe that you want to ban the public? How much of IT is being fuelled by that?

First, demmit doesn't protect against espinoza. That, that is clear as a day. And unfortunately, you're seen a lot of talking points being push out by tiktok and by dance.

Uh, today, one of you saw this but thursday day of the hearing in dec, at least if you try to open a tiktok APP. Now I don't have tiktok, but I seen this a screen shot. They won't allow you to access the up unless you call your congressman.

You actually like figure out how to opt out, but they want you to call your hard. You're tacking your free speech, your first amendment right now as like scc commissioner of brand car, a front of in and a great leader on this he's been taking like, you know, it's about the content. It's it's it's about the conduct, is about the at the reality is that if you're he references a supreme court case where if you're a book started doing a licit activities, if they want to shot on the bookstore, that's not the first of evidence lation. That's because you are doing illicit activities in the bookstore.

If you're running a, you look launder ing money. No, you can buy the books.

It's not how IT works. The reality is that we're looking at the actual conduct but when unfortunate you know you're seeing on whether the activists you know who who are fans ds a tiktok on the left or political side of the White house, you open up a tiktok account for the way house literally a month ago on the super bol um you know the saying that they want to use tiktok but also the same is a free speech first remember ment right they know the White house policy teams saying.

no, I pause use there and talk about that because it's not just the best administration. You see this throughout government. Um what do you make of I mean, one hand were being told that is a huge national security thread. On the other, certainly the president who should know the most about that is using the APP is IT like how much of a of a threat is IT really? If makes you wonder.

right? I mean, the question is like you you're enabling Young people onto the APP to know how they are data sucked up. You're now easily encouraging them into this these concerns. But like I think that's why that I message your bill is written in such A A unique in in helpful ways. We're looking at the actual problem here because if we start getting into the content, you're now opening about these first semi c questions. And you do say like the structure of our government is in such a way that we don't have an authority who can just really, really nearly cut people out that say things they don't like.

You know, you can't, which is great.

The problems, they don't like you. You can't shut down a podcast because they don't like you. Thank you very much.

So on to for what you're doing here and keep keep IT off that no one can shut you down on this. But like the reality is that if we're going to do IT, we have to go on the careful way. And we did that with the fcc.

My experience at the fcc was chairman pie went after Willy. We went after the concerns that Willy was sucking up the data through our routers, through a wireless infrastructure, you know you're cable networks and fiber. And now we were to like, you know shut that down because we knew he was spying.

IT wasn't your ability to access the internet, Willy users. IT was the fact that they were using a platform icon. Do IT, that was also being used by?

What do you make of the criticism that I receive? relentlessness. Ly, that this is no different than what facebook does.

It's an american company. That's a big difference to me. That's what we're saying that if we want to go to content about privacy issues, overall privacy issues, that a lot of bills in congress that can't quite get agreement about to do that.

And that's part of the problem is that whether it's google or facebook or so is american companies, but they don't have to handle that, dad, to the central government. In the same way, there are checks and baLances that we fighting for. In fact, I wish we had more of them. And that's why the fisa of reform and nsa fight happening right now in capital. He is so important, so vital this conversation to because we need to make sure that we as americans online are uh free from surveilLance, whether it's our own or naval government so next step.

um you know Andrew mark up today and then as you mentioned you know over the next couple of weeks were gearing up towards the vote. Um what are realistically the odds at this passes you said that has by part in support and they are of they they got to mark up sort before they even made announced ment um but what about the actual boat?

Um so every bill is this congress can barely get done right. I would say there's little small eyes everywhere. It's like of being a filled out and fill span hoping we in the world series this year, there's a chance.

But who knows? The reality is though, there's momentum and that's what that that's what matters that, that is the most important thing right now as we have momentum in the fact they can move on or the next couple of weeks is just super vital for next step. So um I worried though I will say when i'm worried about is that individual members, particularly important members in the house republican inside, could get picked up because their donors there's a couple of big donors.

jeffrey, yes, let's talk about .

yeah who have ve invested about thirty two billion dollars in in tiktok and bite tenants and they have the heat on the boards of several very powerful organizations in dc is really in part of the the the campaign finance infrastructure of dc politics. An individual like that can make things very hard on certain members, and that's the part that we got to mitigate against. And how do we reinforce those members to stay strong on this issue?

It's crazy to me how many former trump people also now effectively work for china by way of one of these companies. Um you have, uh what was IT yesterday I I went through the whole list hoax is the most recent so you also have like David urban, who I think he ran trumps campaign in sort of turning now and in working for for right dance.

It's not this like a right wing effort, I think to ban tiktok that we think IT is um I think it's pretty complicated. And for my reading right now, the yeah is the sort of the big risk is is not on the democratic side. I think very you probably have the votes trigger to have its on the republican side because the money for years and things like this, your did I almost and guarantee that like someone like grand paul is be a no on this and he's going to say it's for your fair competition or whatever.

And then it's like, I mean, the reality of that is we don't have IT with china, so it's just bullshit again. This is like why i'm until libertarianism anymore um but that seems to be the piece in playing out like what is the what really is the republican position um this and is that not honestly that conflict between um the quote free market and national defense kind of at the heart of a with changing way that the republican party is thinking of itself, right? It's like it's really it's it's global and verse naison on the right I think, is that what would you that I did a lot there.

I mean, we used to think what every mcDonald working in china would solve our free market problems. And that was actually kind of the the ideology of most of the right. I, to be fair, think a lot of that is partly true.

I know i'm not going for a decoupling of of of of our country and and i'm not a foreign expert, know that when I can tell you that like in the age of dropped in twenty sixteen, we've seen a concert effort to wrestle with these concerns and the fact that we are in such interactive world and and you know if if wall and in chinese may entities are controlling the internet in europe, that's going to have negative vacations for us, not just our security bar economy. Look like the big fight in leo space. The future of our lower, lower earth orbit satellite is if I that china is setting up their own rules of the road to make a hard for project hyper or star link to these other american made companies to compete.

So it's not a security. It's also about like our own economic freedom, which you mentioned earlier. And that change because of trumping because I kind of the rise of this you call but you know my call popular um maybe a resetting retaliation ating of free market ideas um has I think actually allowed us to become um more a stronger focus on these these really concerns.

I see if we had not been changing our our lands. I think very few people be interested in in in addressing tiktok. You'd have far more members interested in what uh yes, there are a liberating .

where do you we saw vic, who is sort of a surrogate for trump in many respects at this point, truly wants to be perceived as a surrogate for trump um while he was running changes mind on tiktok, he became a pro tiktok guy um where do you see triumph coming down on this? You see him being quiet on this before the vote happens? Do you see them actually offering his opinion in one direction or another? Because IT seems that that would also have a huge impact on the way the republicans are thinking about IT.

I I think that would have A A big impact. And I am I I I am careful to ever suggest what he may or may I do but what I would say is is look, I mean the vacuous ran to run for a president and try to win um and he was running from behind he realized his base was millennial and Daniel and they use tiktok and so I think he was trying to separate themselves from the older people who use running against and so j when jack paul tells you that tiktok can reyonlds who to question jake paul um I think to be fair, a present trump um in his team was very much a part of the kind of refocusing the way we go about china. And so I think just my guessing is that there's a lot of people in the world who recognized the road concerns with china and the real concerns with with with their influence, our our security space. And so I don't know that he's going to go the same way as as J.

I don't want to miss frame IT. It's dinner around the democrats side of the republican side, right? I just said the republican side is now being threatened by globes and things like this. Support for the tiktok k to vester would be there around tiktok.

There's a number of articles in political about the number of lobbies and released partners like I think there's a former White house effort that was really close to the joe by and how they get elected who was brought on by tiktok. Like they have a lot of people in their space, two who are trying to be in the years of of democratic leaders. So like this is a full core press from them as well.

But you represent jamal bowman was the biggest tiktok advocate last year and he's the same guy who tried to like, you know break out of the the house and and set off the via ARM. M i'm not so sure how effective he is right now at bringing on his his team with them. So um I think you're right that you have a up battle, but IT does speaks to the fact that there's forces on both the left in the right that are advocating foreign against this issue.

And look, that's actually a good place to be. To be Frank, this isn't a right wing effort. This isn't some bite in pipe dream. This is something that I think rational level had a people are looking at doing.

And honestly, i'll be honest, like some of the liver terns, I know dc, who are generally the most vocal to locally opposed to anything like this or actually commuted yesterday, they're like this is kind of a cleverly written bill. This is of an interesting idea, quipped with and maybe build a tinder questions. But like they weren't in the same like this is a terrible nonstarter as they were several months ago. And also the tiktok largest tray association that they remember up has not said anything publicly about the bill. If if tiktok really did have sway with certain with a traces ation, they would have come out opposed the thing right away but they have been sitting behind to the past several days and night IT makes me wonder .

why I I actually have a question on the the text of the bill um because something i've been seeing on twitter uh is there's this prevision in the bill that give so the bill sort of says, you know foregone adversary controlled apple applications can be subject to these uh demands of defector, right? But IT also has a provision saying that if the president determines that an application poses a significant threat to national security, uh he can issue here or he can issue a public statement um as a public notice that says and then similar to congress and then potentially uh force the application into a demonstrator or ban IT or something like that and i've been seeing sort of murmurings on twitter about how this might be used uh to I don't know, westernize criticism of of applications yeah exactly and so i'm curious what you what you think about that um and if that's a substantive critique.

Let me just say like the fact is we have a separation of powers and um there's need for transparent y accountability both from the congress to the White house and the White house. Uh a vice vera.

And so IT is really important that they hammer out this language in a way that make sure that there is transparency, accountability is to make sure that um the present or any present, whether it's this one or a future one, doesn't web ize this new authority in a way that would be problematic. honest. That was my biggest concern for the previous proposals was that was wage you brought and I was in dying a way that I think really was could be a weapon zone.

So what we live a world where uh uh google cuddling up with with with the government. We are in a world where um you know we saw uh different social media platforms, sensor things based on what the government told them to do. You're right, it's a fairy criticism.

And I really hopeful to see the the mark up actually flush that out so we can get Better idea what this would do and what this would not allow because I understand the concern. I think it's a safe is a fair thing to be critical and be wearing up. But that's what a mark up for.

That's what this congressional, you know conference process is for. And I see see, that's the role of libertarians like that's where ramps perspective or represent a macy or mikey or certain members of the freedom cockey or other as or body of grain on the other side. That's why similar things are important to let's baLance this .

out and move for given that this is a devastate, not a ban, not a not right ban. IT seems like a pretty easy um think the message on just uh patriotic, nationalistic grounds to republicans. I'm wondering what the how do you how do you still mean the opposition from republicans is is IT just completely political, is is is just like the mashona of the swamp um that that that is producing this opposition? Or are there actually good reasons to allow by dance to continue owning tiktok?

All do my best. You know, D, C, we don't still man. We just still man. Ii, you don't come to compromise now. We're just trying to like, you know the other ride down that's twitter for excess force. Sorry, now that there's actually some fair thoughts.

I mean, if you if you're saying to look like how would this actually affect the small businesses in vous entities that are actually leveraging tiktok for for economic opportunity, right? Let's say they're not getting the same in gate. Your small business who using tiktok to become like the Grace hair dressing or whatever is, I could seem argument for that first song like that actually. Would you have an impact on small .

businesses and small .

juvenile that can give the same but an act of laid band?

So if if here's i've got one who's going to buy IT, IT was valued like eighty six billion dollars, something there's no way democrats are going to allow mark sucker berg to buy IT or elan, I don't think could afford IT, right? But I don't think maybe who knows? I mean, maybe maybe X Q do IT, but there's no way they are going to allow that in this climate.

So what is the company what giant company can afford IT? Are they going to allow to actually buy IT that's that's gonna IT. And if they can't find if they can't find a buyer, then is IT a defect to ban? Or do they just have to sell at this sort of massive discount to, like I don't even know, a gaming company or something that then becomes immediately overnight, the most important social media company in the country?

Yeah, I mean, look, lacon as of the ftc. So like who knows what they would allow of for any sort of purchase? I mean, that is a logic question. The other one, I would say brand, because I started started thinking about the with way but you're right about the message uh, clarification, I missed that. Um what out of say is that like a kind of species larger conversation of the economic a questions geographic h geopolitical economic questions. Uh, how is display is a reaction from china, which that looked like what american companies are involved in, that that was actually A A concern that a little raise by by, I think, gonna an earnest, a health staff for yesterday to me about like, hey, if if this happens, what does this look like down the road for us?

What are they going to ban our social media and ies?

How do you get show media on me? Look how, how manufacturing, how, how much other stuff is in that space?

What are they to do for telling if an, I don't understand, stand on the dc side, what is the fear of trade war with china? They, we, we will suddenly have to pay, what, ten thousand dollars for a new phone or something, and they will not be able to feed themselves. It's like they don't want a trade war.

Every their entire economies based on trade, they cannot have an enemy and you know its states. And it's like this is a very this one seems like an absolute software to me. As long as you have someone is as long as your people in dc who are willing to fight so on.

I had to say, I literally heard this person say that, and I SAT quietly and I thought the same thing you said, but hey, I ve got to play the game and I am glad that you made the point um yeah I I I see that I absolutely get that point. That is the one perspective that I think some people here cripple IT. And again, that's that's my best effort to be a strong as steel man for their side. Not not that I take that position with. so.

Yeah, how do you think that would this bill affect other chinese apps like team like you said, e commerce from china, which is really big.

So yes, I think I could have a effect on on age should shine to lie on e commerce. And I think the china cc peace like how start a really good job of kind of raising more and more concerns about that. I think you can go forward with some of the other anes unless you look at a take talk first.

One point out to bring up is i'm still focused on the hardware side. I Normally concerned about apps like I don't ask, like uh Harry, like T P A T P link uh which is a wifi router that has a major concerns with with how I can be used back in china. Information go back to china.

Let's look at some the other telecom side of this as well, not to mention the e commerce. So I yeah IT IT IT. I think to your point, tiktok is like the first on deck, but like bear are some other companies that we should be looking at further. And I hope this kind allows us to go great.

Thanks, man, was great. Talk to you. And uh, just I don't know we're going to follow the use and hopefully bringing you back on, on a couple weeks with with an answer in one way or the other.

I so you're in office. I am literally above tiktok office right now. My office is little above to there. They have dc offices in the third, fourth, four.

The seven are people like running around frantically.

Ally crazy. I actually can tell you a great story. I was in an elevator or with a couple of them complaining about the last hearing, and like what was being said in what members are saying and tom kon said, but I am hosting just, you know, you invited night when we win this, there is a bar right next store called last call. I'm hosting away the pool, the happy hours.

you're more than what we know, the happy yeah I mean, I was IT like two weeks from now will know for sure won't well.

the senate, they take time, but you if we get a house pass, we'll go from there and not to see what happens.

Amit, i'll see you there ever get to take I mean, we had a lot. I, I, I want to move on to to a google in a minute. But I would do guys think about tiktok, any any other thoughts that what share her?

I think that if that is band like, somebody can just make a clone, you know, I mean, how .

difficult can do I? I think, you know, you think I should be like that. And yet, zuker burgers really tried. And instagram, I mean, the crack does not hit the same way. I don't if you've noticed, and I think there is something that has not been replicated, I think it's harder to to build these things up.

One question I have this is like very easily googled, but what percentage of tiktok users are american? Do we?

So tiktok has over a billion monthly actives. As a january twenty twenty four, the united states was the country with the largest tiktok audience by far. With almost one hundred and fifty million users. Engaging with the popular social .

video platform is IT true that mainland china .

puts limits on have a different thing on something else um that's totally yes, like restricted and also also in place. And also I mean, they have all sorts of limits. So it's not it's it's there is short short form video sharing, its video games, new game and things like this.

Yeah they're super into the control mindset, which I don't know, man, i'm getting there. Why I want these fourteen year old on these things all day like but then I guess, I mean, this is always the question is always what is different about this, the television? And I think to myself, well, also bad for kids to be on television day.

But IT is different. Every APP, every new technology advance is different. To have this living inside of your head is different.

The short form nature of IT is different. The way that IT tracks algorithmically to your interests is different. Like there are different things about this um and they pose different risks, just like different substances pose different risks. I think they're worth interrogating. Sorry, not I cutch off.

I was just going to say in terms of what might replace tiktok if there's a ban, I think something useful to look to india because they banned tiktok in india and they had like a hundred like two hundred million users, I think at the time um and they just permanently banned tiktok a few years ago and I just looked IT up and IT looks like the tiktok ban in india was connected to the rollout of short forming video content on youtube and instagram.

Uh, so maybe what we'd see if the tiktok bank is through, if they can't find a buyer, for example, who's willing to pay the exordium Price would be like a fine tuning of integram reals and youtube shorts so that the the algorithms get Better. I don't know. Um well.

certainly people would fly to those platforms.

I did realized that they abandon in india. And that must be why I feel like every youtube short that I see is just like an indian guy with a cute animal. I so much like indian country on that I realize.

Well, sound off in the comments. Let us know what you think about the tiktok to message ban if you are a tiktok propagandist um I want to talk about google we published a peace on monday google culture of fear inside the dei hive mind that let the gemini ze disaster I if you remember a few weeks ago we reported on .

the google's AI disaster .

in which why people were raised from image generation effectively and they said all sorts of cloud h things where, you know, you couldn't even look back through time and find like middle nights or something, uh, that were White the pope, you could not get a White pope right. You were like turning up images of a black pope in an asian lady pope and things like this.

Um the diversity sort of the over diverse ation problems is what people inside google refer to this as. I can hear a report because I talk to launch of googlers. Um but this this problem, the question of you know what exactly happened at german I got me on uh on a journey I decided to reach out to googlers and see you know anyone was learning to talk.

A lot of them were including people really at all levels of the company um from all different roles within the company and a broke some news so we had a bunch of stuff in there everything from the actual dei architecture um of german I which we uh about one else is reported on that yet to all sorts of the anecdotes um you know just kind of like the culture of of what's happening at google. We were able to also breake sepper from the architecture of gemini affected the regulars, which is an infinity group for people over the age of forty are being forced to change their name to uh, something else we don't know yet. Google have to hire.

Google have to hire outside consulting because apparently not everybody over future forty has great hair. This was considered not efficiently inclusive. I kind of walked into this expecting a clown nist story of just the E I run a mark and maybe some legal stuff like illegal hiring practices and and things like this um but what I got was much more interesting and I was like a much more interesting business story, I think, than that and this is just the company is incredibly silent off to the point where nobody, most people I spoke with didn't even note what was happening on on any other team by the end of my interview process on every tough people for this, I definitely knew more of a higher level than people working at the company.

Most of the obviously of people working at the company, the high soul, you know more than I do but but sort of the average person that google seem to know less than even I did because they don't have uh sort of a top down view of what's going on. No leadership a sundar is completely an apt um and uh the disaster happened that he sort of the over again the over diverse ation they call IT um this is a product of the outsize role of H R um which is itself infected by the ei bureaucracy um that you have IT a company that super side off to the point where the only thing most have in common is hr. So they exert a tremendous amount of pressure on the company um everything is overcomplicated.

Everything is like multiple layers of bureaucrats and people you need to talk to in process. This is a company that was famously at its inception engineering lait is now bureaucracy LED and that is let us to a situation where I think it's actually impossible in the the words of one engineer, senior leader that I spoke with and IT is actually impossible to build a good products at google. Um and I think the future is pretty bleak right now unless tremendous change happens at google for google because of A I.

So google is sort of familiarly lost like every single new um product initiative um or sort of product battle over the last ten years that is entered everything from A R to our social media to A R uh that was fine. They could lose those battles. The thing about artificial intelligence is it's being sort of spoken about right now as a search killer.

If you have this is why microsoft is obviously so. You have microsoft in being a sort of pursuing full throated on A I in the partnership with OpenAI. Specifically if artificial intelligence does eat search, if that's the future of A I that I can do that um then google spacing the first real chAllenge in its history and its not a company that's built to fight.

So I think it's in trouble. And that was kind of the gist of my piece. All sorts of crazy entitles and there throughout the company, all kinds of interesting business insights and structural insights into the company, all sorts of insights into the way that diversity has crept into the product and why that's a kind of core component, why you should expect to resist. Um yeah, you should check IT out guys, what were your thoughts on on the collapse of it's not collapsing yet, but what we thought on what's happened in google.

did you send a when you were talking to um your sources? Did you get a sense that there was there was like a moment inside the company where people started to use chain I and saw that IT produced overly racialized images and said, yes, this is what we want. We're going to take IT to market and and second secondly, you think that if the founders um would have used this for a few minutes or even the CEO. That would I would have been stopped in its tracks. So I have to assume that they didn't use IT before IT was released.

There were people on various teams who did have access, who did use IT, who did flag the quote over diversification problem, which is what they referred to this as internally and over diversification, over the IT was either ignored or lost in the shufu, but my sense was ignored. And that is based on the things that were being tested for.

For example, you query or you prompt a show me an american worker and why can wake up like over ninety percent of uh, farm owners and workers this actually I saw this come surprisingly about that recently in terms of break down of jobs by race, most popular jobs and things like this or brain and you earlier made A A uh uh a suggestion of royalty. British royal is a really easy one. You show me, show me, show me the british royalty.

Um and so obviously the machine is trained on images that IT scrapes from human history. And what is spitting out is the truth that shows you a picture of a White person. Um in the case of farmers specifically, we start there.

Uh that is seen also internally. The word that to use is um we want aspirational answers. So if most people doing this job, whether it's engineer or um let's say again, a farmer, something are not black, that's a problem because there should be A A lot of diversity on and every single job that exists.

So they have this convoluted system of l ms uh that are designed to sort of rework your prompt and then show you something that is sufficiently diverse. And uh, this is what they were testing for. They're testing to make sure enough diversity was in was in the answers. So they're now like, show me a farmer and it's like an asian woman and it's like A A woman and in A A lots of the head scarf and it's like, you know, one black guy and in the fourth person maybe is why but I also saw, I mean, I know I get two in the weeds here.

The point is they were not testing for the problem of like, I don't know what happens if you show me british royalty and it's all black people if what do you ask like in one thousand nine century british novels st and it's like, you know and an asian woman um like that doesn't make any sense. Uh they don't care about, they didn't see as a problem in when IT comes to like diversifying things that don't make any sense. They see that as part of their mission.

Um again though d aspirational was used uh over over again not only for the this that began in professions but that IT IT moved into things like um nationality, so like swedish shui, swedish women or something and if the image turned up all black women, that will be seen as fine because um that there there are black people who live in sweden and like in the future, like always countries to be super diverse and is university great um so that ideology kind of inhibited them from the question of historical accuracy, which were now um there are sort of now thinking a little bit about. But the real trigger there was just black notice because when you will raise White people from human history, that meant that you know, the props show me an oxi turns back in asian shake or black guy and that was seen the whole thing in general was seen as um racist against people of color and that internally is the story that completely been adopted um IT was a story that was propagated by beginning the tech press um the smaller outlets LED in your time. Peace was framed the whole story for them and h that's the kind of path that pursuing now it's .

hilarious that they would show like a picture of a black guy doing agricultural labor and like aspiration, it's like they work hard to get out of those fields. When you talking about, don't know guys.

I mean, you see this again. This is across every job. This is it's a really interesting insight into, again, I I think I think the problems that google are much bigger than the D E I stuff.

I think the D E I stuff only happens because of these huge, enormous systemic business problems of the the companies facing. These are leadership problems. These are like structural management problem, is hard for people to collaborate against a across teams.

Hard people see across teams is hard for people to really know what they all working on. Like what is google doing? You know, what is the thing that google is doing?

I know what they make their money off of. It's a searching apply that's now IT seems like increasingly by the day friend um but like what what what is the average person working on? There was a small thing they're doing this part of the bigger hole.

There's no sense of that. Um and so you can you do get this creep from people who are very good at navigating bureaucracy and happened to really care about this shit. They happened to really, really care about D I. And so this the most important search tool. Um so a search you know it's not strictly a search to, I think I can be used for search, but it's obviously important to google for this reason um and so that is how that creep is how you compromise what should be the most important product um you know that people are working on of the company .

yeah I think it's so at not to keep cheating on laboratory an as well. But I do think this is a good example of uh, maybe wise of those series don't work because the european y that you described peace about google. I mean, that's way crazier and worse that like nothing is happening and I don't know like the post office or is some other is like to just Normal government agency that does a thing.

I'm not prepared to say that, that's accurate because I haven't investigated the post office. I'm sure they're getting up to all sorts that didn't you write a piece about the crazy fucking quaranta stamps and shot like this at the post office?

Yeah but the male comes.

Yeah, the chinese change is I .

think there's plenty of ship going on on crazy government for all the time. In fact, like we have, cities are not. At the end of the day, google search still functions.

You can still go to the search bar and get amazing results. And like the city police and the emphases go, do not. So I think it's like there there's a lot of about everywhere.

I think all of that is just to say that like wait, companies give to a certain size, they do start to resemble sort of like the least generous descriptions .

of government. yes. I dds, a really good point. And one of the push back, I won't say I was push back, but a lot of people would say things like, you know, this is just all giant companies.

I think that not all giant companies are the same, but you do this problem does persist to some degree in many different giant company, the silos, nature of IT and the lack of leadership, especially once you was like a founder and no longer becomes a founder at company. Um I think there are probably are really interesting versions of stuff like this everywhere from amazon to apple. And those are two companies I would love to write more about.

So if you guys listening work at either of those companies, please hit me up. I want to know everything that you have to tell me about what's going on there. I think there are a lot of important stories to tell right now in tech.

And this thing, this D I think it's so interesting because it's the nature of IT blinded the tech press from pursuing IT like the fact of the matter is google produced a product that erase White people and because of that because I was so obviously control their narrative, which is that A I was going to be racist against black people um they were blinded to the bigger story, which was the ongoing disaster at google and that's like the there's an important business story that they missed um and sort of I think continued to miss. Um we'll see if they catch on. I'd had a couple of people reach out um and asked to collaborate and wanted to share.

So I was like, please get fuck out here um but A I think that there's a version of this across the board. I think the D I said like an interesting signal. I think you have to you have to follow IT to uh to the real problems facing the company, which tend to be against business problems. And if these things are serving us in ways that are actually really vital um that becomes that becomes interesting to me. You know I get what point is this kind of stuff compromise? I don't know, privacy protections at apple or or iran, amazon or something like this, like I don't know these are there are questions, but I do think there are probably problems, basically all of these companies that are worth pursuing that affect all of us and importantly, the people working at those companies.

I would love to know the story of what's happening inside google right now in reaction to our story and the the chatter around IT. Um I think that be a great follow up story for us if we can get sources on that. But might just after after the story dropped, do you know anything about how how it's been received inside google?

I've always seen a few things. I've seen people i'm blind talking about IT and they rely correct this is all basically true um i've seen people quibble on different parts like like it's not this bad on this part of whatever but like in general, what IT comes to the big structural thing is the leadership thing, the the failure of sundar， the persistent sort of decade long failure of sunday's, the fact that you can ship products there, the fact that A I was massive vely embarrassing um to the entire company sort of disaster of that um IT IT does IT seems from what i've seen, which is limited, that yes, people um who've seen the piece tend to be like this is kind of this is you know, basically this is basically the truth.

Obviously, I write with my bias on my sleeve and so that's going to turn some people off eternally who just really loved the ei stuff which I considered red to be like an apparent racist staying on american history but um you know I can get passed that I think it's hard to disagree with uh the portrait that I painted because it's just the truth is what people they are all think and in fact you see IT to a certain extent they have an internal mean chat where um you know the most at the highest level separate from all of these like real detail things on A I or di whatever else sundar is seen as a an an impotent leader um is relentlessly mocked. In fact they try to take away up vote on the mean channel at google um directly following the german I disaster. And while they didn't say this, internal sentiment was like they're doing this because we're coming for sunna too aggressively.

Um all the updates all the most popular means were criticized ing sundara performance to CEO and then as if to like to underscore the evidence of sundar, they didn't they relate. They gave back the update. Ts, once they got this sort of criticism.

So I just like there's no leader there um at all. And the part of this is the weird dance between, uh, you have the google founders, Larry patients, serge brin, you have the board and you have sn dar. There's a confusion generally about sort of who is actually in control.

The founders technically have like absolute voting power. They can be whatever they want. But it's kind of like brush royalty where if they dissolved parliament, that will be really bad in some way.

And so they don't get involved. And so the board doesn't want to push back x efficient and some do not want to piss anybody off. And so they all just do nothing.

But um at this point, you can have to do something. I I think doing nothing actually made sense for GLE for a lot of time. They had a run away search monopoly.

They were just printing money right now. The one hundred I think hundred and twenty billion is um what the fact checked that and throw the number up on the screen. H in cash they're sitting on. They're in like eighty billion in net revenue a year.

Um all of this it's like this it's it's the advertising segment and um it's like, who cares about anything else when the times were that good? We've never seen I don't know that we've never seen uh, a oppoi this easy in history, this easy and massive in history, and a now that threatened. And so again, for the first time ever, they have to do something. And maybe, I mean, you know, we ll see if if A I is the search either, that that IT proportions to be, if it's not, I mean, jokes gonna be on us.

And gen will be monopolies for down eight percent over the last month, where S N P and total is up three point to four percent over the last months. So you immediately .

following germany, we saw this once the german I disaster bro shed, I put IT in the piece. So IT was tens of IT was in the tens of billion. I think he was like billion to seventy billion range in terms of ahead of the market cap.

This is a one point seven trillion dollar ies, so not a significant as I could be. Um river, I want you to around that out this week. I would love to know about our ship in the outdoors features a little low company called the north face.

Last week, a bunch of national media outlets of reporting that the north face fame for their puppy jackets that I think a lot of you and time just go very fond of uh so to offer twenty percent discount if you took their ally ship in the outdoors course, which is this ani racist uh training program, but specifically for europeans and the outdoors even more specifically proud sh people uh and you can get twenty percent off but only if you were in so I took this and guy learned, um there's some there's some bad stuff going over there。 Uh they don't even tell people of color about the outdoors. They're not even aware of the outdoors 呃 IT IT opens uh with to say once the last time you saw a person of color hiking or in participate and I was like you have you ever seen a black guy ski like it's like that type of thing and it's so sort of goes from there for example。 Uh, early on in the course, uh, they provide example of White privilege says i've grown up and knowing that the outdoors is a place for .

recreation and fun just just .

I don't know, is that true for White people? My mom would let me be in the boys out because he said proper, which actually some stories that break later on.

ever. How do you still mean in that? Is is, is IT like they're saying that most people of color are like physical labors and so they don't have fun outside because they have to work out there like what is the how do you how do you get to situation where a black person doesn't know that outdoors can be fun?

I don't know really. I guess, well, there is also some stats uh, that they gave about people of color not visiting national parks in england. I I don't they never really offer an explanation as to why uh, they have made people of color in the U.

K. So terrified of the outdoors. I don't know uh, exactly why. Uh and then is just it's IT tries to kind of give explanations that is like the there's a wake of awareness about the outdoors.

I don't need to do with that means I guess they don't they don't know about IT a uh of they're RAID they write encounter racists on the outdoors as opp posed to the indoors alright um a bitty although the black apparently people color in the U. K. Have the sphere there. There were face want you to lure them into the forest with you so you have to answer these the requires at the end of every unit and if you get the wrong answer or to explain why it's wrong so for example, um when the quiz asked me which of the statements are true about the version the outdoors kind of like sake and they want to see they said, uh, diversity create cycle communities for people of color was wrong and I was corrected by your problem that this is not about segregation, is about creating safe spaces where affinity groups can learn about the outdoors, about fear of being judge wrong, being judged in wrongly stereo out. They're saying .

there is no segregation.

right? If you have to be in if you get a IT, if somebody forms on a IT like a black affinity group, that's not segregation. Oh, again.

it's kind of it's like it's weiter to me that it's like you have these very it's always. A pesky kind of busy body like White person, kind of like it's, I imagine, like a White woman that's be honest. Who look, she's looking around that her hike and she's like, I want a black person here like a strange has a strong it's it's like a strange in position on the whole world is a strange betrayal of your sense of of importance. The fact that you can just gain that like I want, I would feel Better in the presence of a few black people like polite black people who can for my belief that i'm a good person and i'm going to pluck them out of wherever they are and force them into the woods. That's like if you just if you just like break this stuff down to its paris, it's really bizarre yeah and it's changes that we've gone on so long not calling out the the fundamental, the fundamentally bizarre nature of of of a demand like this like like show me, show me an asian right now .

yeah yeah you're like is like a White lady and a puffer jack and on the end of the she's like waving a back.

She's like, hey, come career.

Hey, career. It's okay. You don't have to be afraid, comer like is a little creepy. Do you .

think about yes um .

so they also said that he could take generations to incorporate these uh infinity these uh in hiking like a finite groups into uh the broader outdoor sports world which is crazy because they even take necessarily that log you know so I wonder .

how I wondered the U. K. A. I wonder this company, right? They're focusing on the U.

K. UK. Demographers are changing. This is probably just straight forward business, yes, strategy. They're looking ahead. And they are saying actually like the average muslim immigrant is not as interested in camping as, you know, the silly White person and uh, we ve got to convince them that it's like, cool. And so they're doing IT in a probably the wrong way.

When I would do with, I would started advertising two muslims, if you, that's what you want, rather than to White people. And I don't know what they expect. Like what is their best case? What is their best case here? It's like someone take, they want that code.

They take this quiz. They realized like, oh, I should go to a mosque and start just like handing out flyers to the local fucking trails are what ver, it's a very silly strategy though. I think the higher level thing thing here is a is a little bit more interesting, which is that you know europe's increasingly muslim in the U. K. In particular, is increasingly .

muslim yeah they're getting targeting like the did serious muslim in these two like like a lady and like the four the comb IT is like hiking or whatever. Um SHE formed some group that a they do hiking but then they stop for like the prayers or whenever and that the desert ata times per day.

Um I think it's weird to force people call with the words I think it's weird. Expect that they have to like IT as much as the average White person and is IT even the average White person is the other thing like you kind of looked to this yourself river, you're like you didn't know anything outdoors and you are like poor and so maybe I think there's probably a class thing here. It's not a rich person thing.

I think it's like an upper middle class or a middle class thing. Um well, my dad amon were teachers and we did a lot of camping um as a kid and I did do boys casts stuff loved IT, but IT was it's like an inexpensive thing but also IT does for whatever reason. M like poor people run into IT and really .

rich people run into IT. Yeah I mean, I am I wasn't like in the boys like I don't know I do outdoor sports. I mean that I would consider hiking a sport also let's be if you're walking okay um but they .

there was like crazy shouldn't .

hear what I was they said you shouldn't judge a people of color about the safe standard you judge yourself um which was one of the wilders .

I said I said I did you see I do have time I did you see another this is going violon tiktok again. It's someone complaining about time being, the concept of being .

on time as being control, being racist, being raised this of someone before crazy to me.

I can't try to have someone who's saying this. It's so it's White. IT was a black woman, and then I was corrected IT IT was stitched by a black guy who was like, are you fuck kidding me? Like you like went off about IT.

But like he was saying, she's this woman. She's married to a White guy. They showed up. See her version of the stories. They showed ten minutes late to to the next to some dinner and people were already eating um and then he was like you this is a teaching moment for me to explain to them that not everybody thinks this way and not all dinners, I guess start exactly on time or something um I think would probably happened as IT was more than ten minutes and they were probably firm about when they were starting dinner and they just showed up late not because they were black because they were late.

And so it's like this this story that this argument confuses me on the standard sort of weird like racial uh IT confuse to be along the the typical sort of racial racialized, the dynamics of modern american discourse, which is like if you are saying that punctuality or the concept punctuality or the expectation that people be on time is racist, you are saying that black people are inmates late to things, which is weird. Like how do you not just hear yourself saying this stuff and like and understand immediately that you're being racist if you think all black people are late to things and can't help themselves because they're black, that's cream. That's like a that's more racism than i've ever that is way more racist than any my grand I said, okay, it's like real.

That's racist. Like you really believe you have an you have an actual racist world view. But IT doesn't mean that like if you hire a black person, you have to change your policy on like when meaning start things like this is just very crazy um to see these things, these ideas sort of bubble up and then you have to take them seriously even if they're completely cloudy.

H um yeah absolutely bizarre. I would say that this one is probably more offensive than the blackboard don't camp thing um which is just kind of funny. And I am upset that we don't have a code like that here. What do you think .

they didn't offer IT here? I don't know. I really don't know what they would not offer IT here because there's more black people here way more.

and they actually tried that they're like and what americans are never going to go high. We've done everything that we can. Maybe we don't know theyve at this for years. Yeah.

yeah. Black people have been here. Most of black people in england there are like democrats, like they chose to go there. You know.

when I really little time, like I really do believe it's like it's muslim mums think like that. That's turkish. Also, I think pakistan polish. They're not black or muslim, but they don't want posh people in the woods. They made that clear .

in the quiz .

like not here where yeah I was .

just going to say I think I ve spent .

a little bit .

of time in the british countryside and I feel like there is a genre of White british woman who maybe grows up in a sort of rural area that goes to study in a metropolitan university where cities, I mean, london is majority non White britain. And it's been that way for years now. And they get exposed to all of this kind of a read orc about how britain is is like fundamentally racist country.

And I do think it's song, you're right, it's this is jona of White woman that's like probably behind this kind. Of course, I think it's as simple as that is. Like i've been in conversations with people where there's this kind of like apologetic tone about how you know these british village towns are like all ethnically british um and you you don't see people of color everywhere in the streets and stuff like that um and so I think this is kind of a very on the nose response to that is my read and that doesn't exactly translate to the U S. Is my onion because there's we don't have the exact same sort of demographic breakdown between rural areas and and cities the way they .

do yeah I mean, like I group in the south like I seem like people go fishing you know it's like not crazy thing to say but yeah maybe that's why they did do well yeah .

I I think that is IT is true that but the idea of going like you're going to go camping like who's going camping in amErica yeah .

I do think there's probably .

some weird because I think that is a certain class is a certain um IT probably is breaks IT probably does break down along release IT seems like the artist interest that that are different.

I mean we have this idea that everybody there should be this exact you know racial and gender breakdown across the board of people who are interested in the same stuff um but also present that way and I think he has to do a systemic I think who knows I don't know the answer of the reason there are on a lot of black for campaign beyond my pay grade will touch you hear guys uh next week that explaining us spread the word para wires rate review comment. And thank you for joining us once again in our four P M. Live chat later.