554: It Was Felty
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Hello and welcome to Connected, episode 554. It's made possible this week by our sponsor, Ecamm. My name is Stephen Hackett, and I have the pleasure of being joined by our keynote chairman, Mike Hurley. Hello, hello, hello. I have...

Obviously, a long road ahead of me is keynote chairman, but it will be contested shortly. But I have a long road ahead because I'm not going to lose it. I would like to welcome another long road ahead chairman, the annual chairman, Federico Vatici. Hi, Federico. Hello. Hello. Yeah, I'll be chairman for a while. I'm sorry. Yeah. I mean, you have the rest of the year. Unless, you know, they change...

The calendar or something. Look, anything can happen. Right? I mean, they've been changing maps and geography, so why not the calendar? Whoever wins, if you win like three annuals in a row, you get to rename the Gulf of Mexico after yourself. Wow! Wow, I love it. Put it in the Bill of Rickies. Put it in. The Gulf of Mike. Declaration of Rickipendence.

Stephen, can you just move on to your very, very weird follow-up? I do have some follow-up. It's not weird. We talked about a thing. No, this is weird. And now we're talking about it again. Several people sent me a link from Michael MJD, who does these cool tech history videos on YouTube, going over the Motorola Rocker. So you should go check that out. But the real reason I put this in here is a direct appeal to a listener named Matt. Matt, several weeks ago,

in our feedback form was like, hey, I have a rocker. I'd love to send it to Steven. So I emailed them and said, hey, I would love to adopt it. Let me know how we could work this out. And I haven't heard back. And so Matt, if you're out there, hit me up. I would love to adopt your Motorola rocker. Matt, if you would prefer to give it to me, email me. Yeah, I don't want it. I don't want it. No, no, no.

No, thank you. This is strange. This is like a personal ad on a podcast. You know, it's like, man looking for rocker. Oh, yeah. Well, Craigslist shut all that stuff down. You know, you can't do personal... So now you need a podcast. Now you need a podcast. Look, what is a podcast if not a way to grow your computer collection? That's a really great point. Have you ever thought about that? No. Okay.

WhatsApp is available on the iPad. What? Finally. Incredible. I mean, cut them some slack. You know, 15 years...

For a company like Meta, you know, the guy has been busy. You know, Zach has been busy. First with the sunscreen and then with the little cartoons in VR. And then being in court. Being in court and then buying gold chains. And eventually it's like, yeah, okay, fine. We'll do WhatsApp on the iPad. Why is this happening? I don't understand why this has happened.

Why is it now? Why do we have it now? My answer was going to be, why not? But probably not good enough. I don't know. It's strange. Look, do Instagram next. That's what everybody wants. Congratulations, we have WhatsApp on the iPad. No, I want Instagram on the iPad. The only half reasonable theory is that maybe...

If iPadOS is getting this big update to WWDC, maybe they might have wanted to be able to, I don't know, to sort of be there and be part of some like...

early demos of people saying, hey, this is the new iPadOS and look, I'm using WhatsApp on the iPad. I don't know. Maybe. I can't imagine Apple ever having demos. No, me neither. You know what I mean? My only thought is maybe they're preparing for some kind of foldable thing. Maybe they think it's going to happen. Because my expectation is Meta would want WhatsApp and Instagram in a foldable format.

But what I will say is on the Google Pixel Fold, Instagram is terrible on that because you just can't see the images in full. It just blows them up way too big. Maybe there's a way to fix that. Android has some weird settings where you can like zoom out and stuff for certain apps and like change the aspect ratios. Maybe we should play around with that. I didn't talk about doing that until I just said it. But there you go. Federica, have you used WhatsApp on your iPad yet?

Not because my iPad is in storage and I haven't touched it in like two months. Whoa. I'll bring it to WWDC. I'll bring it. I'll bring it with me. I did not expect you to say that. Well, it's... Yeah. No. I know you're doing other things. We've spoken about them. We're going to talk a little bit more. But the thing... The reason I'm surprised about that is listening to App Stories and you talk about Vision Pro and you were like, oh, we should have iPad...

So I was like, oh, he's still using it then. But no, you just want it. Yeah, I just want it. I want to change my mind. And I think, you know...

good vibes going into WWDC. Like, I'll bring the iPad Pro with me. I actually want to, you know, I think I'm going to grab it over the next few days, you know, update it, sort of use it again a little bit more, but I'll bring it with me because, I mean, I do want to see what they do at WWDC, you know. I want to see what they do with it. Well, if it's broken in any way...

You could fix it, because now the iPad is part of the self-service repair program. Right. iPad Air M2 and later, iPad Pro M4, iPad Mini A17 Pro, iPad A16, covering displays, batteries, cameras, and charging ports. All these parts are now available for you to go ahead and fix your iPad. Okay.

Sure. It's been a long time since I thought about the self-service repair program. Yeah, me too. This is the kind of thing that Stephen cares about. I do care about it. Was it thermal event? Is that the thing that it said? If it caught on fire, it's a thermal event. You need sand for any thermal events. Yeah. You never know when a battery could explode. It could happen right now. Yep. Right now to you.

How much is that tandem OLED panel going to be? Like if you break the screen on an iPad and you order the part, that's going to be pricey. Is it available now? No, tomorrow. Tomorrow. They have Beats products in here, you know, just the Beats pill, just the battery. If you want to replace the battery, the Beats pill, you can do that. All sorts of stuff. Some real-time follow-up, I looked at Rockers on YouTube.

eBay real quickly. Well, you don't have a lot of faith in listening maps to reach out to you, do you? There's still not very many of them, but I did find a limited edition Motorola Razr that is like gold, and it looks wild. It's a Dolce & Gabbana version, that's why. I couldn't pronounce it, but yeah. Oh, here's a better link. I'll put a better link in Discord. People can check that out. Dolce & Gabbana. If you want to.

Can I talk real quick about a bit of a problem that sort of manifested itself over the past couple of days and I'm sort of like searching for a solution to this problem? Yeah.

So I, like I mentioned, I have been using the Pixel Watch over the past couple of months, sort of paired with my Pixel Fold, which I really wanted to write about the Pixel Fold before WWDC. And then the article that we're going to talk about shortly sort of happened and sort of, you know, my plans have been all over the place. But in any case, yeah.

I realized that I was kind of missing the Apple Watch for some things. There are some things that I really do like about the Pixel Watch, the design, the assistant, obviously, the customization I do like. But I think I do prefer, obviously, the, like, the...

Like HomeKit, for example. HomeKit notifications on the Apple Watch. Super handy. Being able to react to iMessage notifications with tapbacks. Basically the Apple ecosystem things, right? And so I got my Apple Watch from my nightstand drawer and I charged it. It was behind a software update. So what is it, like 11.5 or something? Yeah.

Started using it. Long story short, I realized that my Apple Watch Ultra first gen battery life, like the battery health is now down to 86%. This thing is not lasting through a whole day anymore. And I'm very bummed about it. I really wanted to push it to September or October for...

you know, to get a new Apple Watch Ultra, uh,

But I don't know what am I going to do here. How do you check the battery health again? From the settings on the watch itself. From the watch? From the watch itself. From Watch FM. Wait. Yeah. So, I don't know, because this thing, like, I put it on this morning. Put it on this morning. It's now down to 30%.

Yeah. That's bad. You said 91. Mine is newer than yours. This is an Apple Watch Ultra 2. So mine's only a year old and it's already down to 91%. That's not great. Right? Less than 90 and you've got a problem, I think. Like resale and stuff. I've only had mine since, what, September 2003 or something like that. You want to take another run at that? Yeah.

2003? Yeah. Actually, you know what? Since September 2003, 91% is not that bad. Really? It's pretty good. It's pretty good. Like 21 years? It's not bad. It's actually not that bad.

Pretty nice. So yeah, I don't know what to do. I just checked on the Italian Apple store. If I do the thing where I give them the trading with my Apple Watch Ultra, they're going to give me 300 euros for it. That's so bad. Oh my God, that's so bad. It's kind of bad, which means that an Ultra 2 would cost 599 euros.

instead of €909? How much would a battery replacement cost? I have no idea. Is that even possible? Sure. Yeah. Right? Yeah? Sure.

Battery. I think with the, I know with the phone, there's a certain level of battery capacity that they won't replace it. Yeah. If you have AppleCare Plus, battery service may be covered at no additional cost if the battery's health has degraded to 80% or less. So before 80%, I think you would be paying for it. In the UK, on the UK Apple Store, the estimated cost for a battery replacement is £95.

Or it's free if you have AppleCare+. You should just get the battery replaced. If you want to keep it for longer and you're worried about the battery, I feel like you should do that. Your product is eligible for battery service at no additional cost if you have AppleCare+. Do you have AppleCare+, do you know? How does one find out? That is such a great question. Check AppleCare+.

Stephen, how do you find out if you have a pocketbook? Check your device's coverage. So you go to checkcoverage.apple.com. You put in your serial number, which I'm doing right now. Where do you get the serial number from even? From the watch app on the phone. Zoe in the Discord says in the Apple Support app, which I don't even know what that is. What is that? There's a... Oh, there it is. I just searched the word support and it was on my iPhone. I never knew about it. Look at that.

Okay, okay, let's see, let's see. Oh, these CAPTCHAs, man. Wow. Are you a robot? Oh, I guess I am. Use the support app. No, it's too long. Oh my God, why...

I need to find out. Do you need to bring it to the Apple store to do that, or can you ship it to them? That is also a great question. Let me see if I can find that out for you. This is weird podcasting, but I guess this is what people are here for, right? Yeah. Send in for repair. Again, it's all in the UK store, right? We'll help you arrange delivery to an Apple repair center at your convenience. It takes six to ten days. Okay.

Interesting. Let's see. I would say you would get that if you have the AppleCare, definitely. All right. Well, okay. Warranty expired. Friendship ended with warranty. If it was less than 100 euro, I feel like that is a better thing to do than the trade-in get a new watch, if I'm being completely honest. Because you would get an Apple Watch Ultra 2, which realistically is not any different to the Apple Watch Ultra that you have. Hmm.

okay i think about it i think about it sounds good all right we have some follow-out was that a laser yeah okay uh on upgrade 565 the scent of humane uh jason and one mike hurley debated about io and open ai and johnny ivan it was it was very good i was very happy with how that episode came together uh

There was definitely a debate that occurred at certain points of the show, which I enjoyed and I knew going into it. I was very happy that Jason wrote down all of his opinions about IO beforehand because I was actually quite surprised at how strong his opinions were, but I think it led to a very good conversation. So people should check it out if they haven't.

Yeah, it's good. You know, we covered it as it broke last week, which is always so fun. I love to do it. I'm so happy that happened last week. That was just great. It was good. Can't believe Jason doesn't like Johnny Ive.

You know what? Actually, someone wrote in, because I was saying about how much I love him and I have such a bias. Someone wrote in and said, I wonder if it's because he's British. I was literally going to say that. Of course. I find this so strange because I get this whenever I talk about F1. All my favorite drivers are the British drivers. People get so mad about this. But to me, it's like Americans are the absolute worst with this.

And so it's very funny to me that when Americans get upset that I, as a British person, support British people. How dare you? I find it to be very strange. But yes, of course, one of the reasons I love Johnny Ive, Sir Johnny Ive, is because he's from my homeland. Also because I think he's the greatest designer in all history.

Yeah. Oh, man, I'm looking through the upgrade feedback form. A lot of feelings about Johnny Ivan here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't look in there. Closing that tab. Don't look in there. Don't look in there. We get a lot of it. Some of it gets, everything gets read. Only a portion of it gets read on the show. That's right. That's well said. Yeah. But Stephen, you showed up on another podcast this week. I did. I was on the talk show with John Gruber. Came out yesterday or over the weekend. Yeah.

It was a very good episode. My favorite part, one of my favorite parts of the whole episode is where you nearly melted into a puddle at the beginning of the show because you were immediately put on the spot with a piece of Apple trivia that I don't think you got right. So we were talking about the screen resolution of the original Macintosh and I quoted it as 512 by 384, which is wrong. It's 342. I corrected myself quickly and

But then we went down a rabbit hole of like why that's true. And then I spent basically the next two days researching why that's true and wrote a lot of words about it on 512pixels. Was this a penance, this article? Yeah, I needed to make it right with the universe.

You spent way too much time researching it. Put it together. So yeah, you can go read about that. But yeah, it was great to be on the talk show. We covered a lot of ground. It was a lot of fun. Pictures of old Macs look so much better on your new website.

I think so too. The picture of the Lisa with like the sort of teal header and stuff looks really good. Especially if you like line the image up just underneath the banner. Yeah. It's good. I'm really happy with the redesign. I'm really, really pleased. So yeah, go check out the talk show if you want to hear two hours of me talking about stuff. Who would want that? I don't know.

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So as we're recording today, Federico published a world premiere article. It's that time, right? It's summer game fest time. But anyway, this is about an app called

So a thing, I don't even know if we call it an app. Maybe you can answer that for me. A project called Sky, which comes from some of the creators of Workflow and some of the people who worked on Workflow. We spoke about this company being set up a long time ago. It's called Software Applications Incorporated.

which is the like, Hey, we've left Apple. Uh, we've got a small team and we're building the thing. The thing that they're building is called sky and Federico had an actual exclusive, right? You're the only person that wrote about this today who like got the, correct. Yeah. And it's kind of like a preview article. Um,

Do you want to, can you talk about what is going on here to the best of your ability? Because I know it's actually, it's very complicated. Great, great article, which people should absolutely go read, especially even just to look at the images and the GIFs that are in it. So you can kind of get an idea as to what is going on here.

Yeah, thank you. Obviously, AI disclaimer, this product has AI and uses LLMs, so if you are not interested, there's going to be a chapter and you can skip it. No, but I don't think they should, though. That was very nice of you to say for the people that don't like LLMs and stuff, but like

this is, this is, this is interesting. Like you, you got to know about this. So that was very nice of you to put that disclaimer, but I'm anti-disclaimer. All right. Well, all right. I tried, um, to be fair, they did say, uh, that they were going to do this two years ago. I remember linking to, uh, whatever the folks, uh, said in November, uh, 2023, uh,

And they actually delivered on that idea. So the short version. So this is an AI-powered assistant that you install on your Mac. And it's using a large language model. It's using, right now, in the sort of alpha version that I have, it's using a few different models. I mostly used it with GPT 4.1. Cloud is also available. There are no local models available.

that you can install right now that may change. I don't know. So you install this app and essentially when you invoke it, it's got this little floating window. It kind of looks like a mini version of Spotlight or Raycast, you know, like a launcher. And you can use it like a launcher in that if you type, I don't know, SA and you launch Safari, like you can use it for that, but it's not really meant for that. It's meant for asking questions.

But unlike most chatbots, because you may say, well, I can also ask a question to ChatGPT or Claude, you can also... The whole idea is that it integrates with everything on your Mac. It's basically connecting to all the possible...

system hooks that are available on macOS. It's using all of them. And I kind of want to get into the technical details of some of the underlying tech, but I will do so when it actually launches. And what you can do is, I guess the thing that sets it apart is that it can look at any window

on your Mac, whether it's visible in the foreground or in the background or minimized in the dock even, it can look at any window and it can read the actual contents of any window using a special flavor of OCR in that it's not just OCR. It's like a screenshot plus additional data. That's the sort of the secret sauce, so to speak.

It can read the content of any window and it lets you ask questions about that app. So you can do things like basic stuff that you've seen before. Like you're looking at a browser tab and you're like, hey, summarize this. But because Sky is built upon this idea of getting window content is the first idea. And the second one is

performing actions. It's got these tools. There's built-in tools that come for free with the app. And obviously, for a power user, you can make your own tools. After all, these are the same people that made workflow, that made shortcuts. But what's different this time is that, and this is one of the themes of the story, both workflow and shortcuts were always kind of

they were always mostly optimized for the power user end of the spectrum. What these folks tried to do this time was try and find a better way to cover the entire spectrum of people that want to use computers, from regular people to

that maybe I've heard about AI and they're like, well, I know that I can ask questions about CharGPT, but CharGPT is in a browser and it cannot do anything on my computer. So trying to be this flexible product that can scale from simple things to advanced things in a way that shortcuts, to be honest, never could because there's such a high barrier to entry when it comes to shortcuts, putting together a shortcut. So here you can do things like

Let's say you're looking at a concert page in Safari.

or in an email, and you're like, hey, can you add this to my calendar and also send it to Mike? And it's going to do all that. Like from that sentence, it's going to do the visual understanding to see what you mean. And then it's going to use the tools to create a calendar specifically for the event that you're looking at. And it's going to send a message to Mike because iMessage is one of the built-in tools. So that's kind of the idea. It lives on your Mac.

It can look at any window and it can perform actions. And those actions are based on tools. And there are some built-in tools that the Sky team is going to give you out of the box. And you can make your own tools. That's sort of the broad overview of what it does. But it's also like absolutely controlling your computer, right? Okay, so how do I explain this? It depends, right? So...

There are some things

Like, for example, iMessage, Notes, Reminders, the Calendar, Apple Mail, Web Browsing. It actually directly integrates with those apps. So, like, it can retrieve your calendar events. It can create calendar events. Oh, obviously, file management is a big one. So it can read any directory. It can create files, move files, copy files, delete files. Like, it basically acts as a finder assistant, right?

And it can chain these things together. So if you want to do something like, hey, take this email and, I don't know, create a reminder for it and also write a summary of the email as a text file in my desktop, it's going to do all that. So it's got that behavior, sort of like people these days like to call them agents, where they're like,

automation's in a loop, essentially. But it's got that behavior where it's going to do multiple things in a row for you. When it comes to actually controlling your Mac, it depends on what you mean by controlling your Mac. Does it have computer use? Not right now. Can you use Sky itself to write custom tools to control your Mac? Yes.

And that's kind of the idea. Like if you're a power user, you can sort of extend the app using AI, using a large language model, essentially using cloud, which is the default model for writing Apple scripts and shell scripts. So where Sky doesn't reach by default...

You can provide your own scripts and you can provide your own shortcuts, which I have done, or you can sort of vibe code your way into those tools existing for you.

And what's even nicer about this implementation of vibe coding, and specifically AppleScript, which is, it's totally like, I don't know why, but I like to think of it as a Jason Snell feature, because I do know that Jason loves some good old-fashioned AppleScript. He does. So what it does, what it does in that case, when you're asking, hey, I want this script to, I don't know, batch rename something,

files in Finder in some specific way. Or, like, I don't know, I want an AppleScript for BBEdit or something that does such and such thing. When Claude is creating the AppleScript, that AppleScript will likely never hallucinate because Sky is actually checking the AppleScript definition file of the target application. So it's... I mean, it's always been correct for me so far, which is incredibly cool. And so...

I am guessing, this is just my personal speculation, I'm guessing that down the road, this thing will have computer use, but that's like totally separate from what it is in this version that I have right now. How long have you been using it? Two weeks.

Okay, now you said, and I'm going to read the opening to your article, "...over the course of my career, I've had three distinct moments in which I saw a brand new app and immediately felt like it was going to change how I use my computer, and they were all about empowering people to do more with their devices."

And then moving on, you said for the past two weeks, I've been able to use Sky, the new app from the people who made shortcuts. As soon as I saw a demo, I felt the same way that I did about editorial workflow and shortcuts. I knew Sky was going to fundamentally change how I think about my macOS workflow and the role of automation in my everyday tasks. That is very lofty. Yeah. I mean, obviously you just wrote this, so you stand by it, but that is, I mean, it's big. It's a very big claim, right? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, but that's how I felt, you know? Because I do remember those moments. I do actually remember those moments individually. The first time I got editorial, like where I was and what I was doing. When I got workflow, I remember what I was doing. Shortcuts, I was obviously at WWDC. And then I was able to catch up with the guys in private. And so I do remember each moment individually.

distinctly. And when I got the demo of Sky, it's going to be one of those moments because it was great. I was actually sort of losing my mind in terms of understanding how does it actually work. And I think it's incredibly cool the way that it works behind the scenes, which is I will get

deep into the technical stuff for the review. Today, I just wanted to have a preview. No need to get into it. Also because technical stuff may change. Absolutely. Because it seems like this is doing weird stuff.

Not bad, but like... Not as much as you imagine, actually. But it feels like there is a little bit of like, this can only work on the Mac because on the Mac you have the ability to poke into places and reverse engineer stuff. This can only work on the Mac, but if your concern is, oh, I bet this is the kind of workaround that is going to break with the new design, I am very optimistic that even if macOS gets redesigned, it won't break, thankfully.

thanks to the way it's been designed. Maybe a way to put this, I'll ask it to you as a question and you can just answer or not. It's like the things that it is reverse engineering are solid.

I don't even think it's actually reverse engineering. Okay. I think it's just... Well, the holes they're poking feel solid, at least. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's the kind of frameworks that Apple would be... I mean, let's face it, they would be crazy to get rid of the technologies that Sky is using. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that was one of my sort of immediate questions. Like, is this going to be durable or is it going to be...

One of the situations, which we've seen before, Apple engage in like a cat and mouse thing with developers, which is just silly, but... I'm sure it's going to be an app that every single year, the new operating system breaks it a bit and they just have to fix it. So many apps are like that, right? The awesome APIs have changed, so we've got to kind of...

We've got to go in and fix it. Not to the point where it's like, if I'm understanding what you're saying, Federico, you wouldn't believe to the point where like the new operating system comes out and it's like, well, we're out of business. It's just like, that was the end of that. Then no more of that. Like, it doesn't feel like that.

I imagine installing Sky, the permissions dialogs, a mile long. It was actually one, yes, but it was actually one of the nicest. I don't know if this is going to change by the final release. When I got the first alpha, it was one of the nicest dialogs

onboarding flows I've ever seen for this kind of app that wants a ton of permissions. They did all these cute animations and overlays on top of settings. It was really nice. Those are my favorites when an app, I can't remember which app that I used recently, but it was like that where it opens settings and points. I think CleanShot does some of this. Maybe. It creates UI that points to where you're supposed to click, which I like that.

because it's helpful, right? Then just say, hey, open settings and do it. It's like, I don't know. It's so hard to find the places now where you got to go to change any of these permissions dialogues. I like it when an app can suggest to you very clearly where you got to go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very nicely done. Yeah, yeah. So I'm very positive that it'll keep working. I guess one of the things I wanted to talk about is

This idea of the same app being both accessible for simple tasks, but also very, very optimized for power users at the same time. And what I find most interesting is that I actually wrote this in the story.

If you want to use this for like just launching some of your existing scripts or shortcuts, like it's not going to be the best tool for that because those are like fixed tools.

on your computer that you just want to launch quickly. And here, and especially right now, if you try and do that, like run a shortcut with Sky, just run a shortcut without any additional processing, you're going to have latency. Right?

because it's going through an LLM. So actually, if you just want to run a shortcut as it is with no AI involved, like there are better solutions for that. Like Raycast? Like Raycast. But what I think is interesting is

shortcuts or Apple scripts or shell scripts as part of this, I call it hybrid automation, not because I like to make up brands, but just because it's a pretty simple way to get the idea. I think Sky is useful when you have these kinds of automations that need to have flexible inputs, non-deterministic inputs.

The kinds of automations where you don't know exactly what the input data is going to be like, which is basically the opposite of shortcuts or Apple scripts, the old fashioned way. For the example that I used in the story was, I have this shortcut that I can use to save articles to Mike's favorite application, Readwise Reader. It's on my home screen. Yeah. Yeah.

Now, before, I used to have to choose a tag for an article manually. Save an article, okay, what's the tag? Pick a tag, save it. With Sky, because there's an LLM, and because LLMs are pretty great at understanding text, I modified that sort of workflow on my computer to be like, okay, before you run the shortcut, do some natural language processing. Understand what this article is about.

and pick one of these tags from this list of tags that I have, choose one that you think is most appropriate for the article, and then use that for the shortcut that you're going to run. So, which basically is like, okay, how do you take some input data that can be one of multiple things, you cannot use regular expressions for that, because you actually need language understanding.

And so how do you combine that flexibility that needs to happen by understanding text with a deterministic automation that requires an API, requires saving an article, choosing a tag? And this is what Sky, I think, is pretty great at. Like combining the non-deterministic nature of chatbots with...

Power user stuff. If you're interested in the power user stuff. When I saw this example, this is something I exactly want. Like, this exact thing. Because I have tags and I like to assign tags to my articles, but I find it a frustrating step. Yeah. Right? Like, I want to do it, but it's like every time I've got to, like, choose it. Plus, Readwise has this thing where I'm sure it just reorganizes the...

the tags every single time I get the view where it's like, what order are these even in? So it's like, oh yeah, this is great. And to kind of build on what you were saying, Federico, it's like the power of this kind of technology is like where you're adding variable content into an automation where

The type of thing that is going in, article, is fixed. But the content of the article, completely random, and without a computer that can understand fully what the information is taking in. Because if it can't do that, it limits what you're able to do with it, right? Where you couldn't do this...

without this kind of level of understanding that a computer can provide now with these tools. The best you could maybe do is some kind of sentiment analysis. That is so heavy as a thing to do to a step like this. I found it very interesting. Yeah, yeah. And so obviously, I mean, I guess it'll come down to how much they can balance

The fact that most users just want to play around with AI on their computers and they're not interested in writing Apple scripts or shortcuts. How much can you make it flexible for somebody who doesn't want to go in and create anything themselves? How flexible can it be out of the box versus how flexible can you be for the people who actually want to get their hands dirty with this?

And so it comes down to that. They're said it's launching this summer, I believe they said in the promo video. So they have a few months. The collection of built-in tools is already quite solid. What I think is most impressive is the whole idea of you can take a sky shot. This is one of the things we did not mention, like taking a sky shot. It's like you hold down the two command buttons

keys on your keyboard, especially the right one, which nobody ever uses. You hold down the two command keys and you take this sky shot and the sky shot is basically a screenshot with additional metadata built in. And so that idea of it doesn't need to be, when it comes to understanding what you're doing,

It doesn't need to be integrated with anything specifically because it can just read the screen and read the window. But when it comes to performing actions, it does.

And so they have these built-in tools, or you can use shortcuts, or you can use AppleScript, and you can use shell scripts. And I believe by the public launch, you will also be able to use MCP, which, I don't know, MCP feels like the kind of thing that Mike is going to question me about.

Do you have questions about MCP, Mike? I mean, I'm vaguely aware of it at this point. So it's like this standard that everybody's kind of using now for... You know, there was a good episode of The Verge Class last week where they were talking about Google I.O. and they were talking about MCP. And I found it to be an interesting discussion because it's like...

Essentially, with something like MCP, the web just becomes a series of databases that everybody's calling. And it's like, the hope is that something like MCP could at least try and help establish a new monetary model for the web of like, it costs, it's tolls, essentially, to access these databases.

I have no idea if that even makes any sense, but that to me was like, oh, okay. Someone's at least trying to come up with something to still make the web some form of transaction where it needs to be. But yeah, so I've become a little bit more familiar with MCP. Here's a question I have for you, Federico, right? And for someone like me, because you were referencing automations and is it going to be able to do enough?

I think I'm very interested in this tool because it looks really nice and the examples that you gave are really cool. But sometimes, I think this hits the thing that I have with a lot of automation, right?

Where sometimes it feels like it's more effort to run the automation than just to do the thing. Sure. Yeah, isn't there like an XKCD comic about this? Probably. Yeah, there is. I won't recall it, but I can maybe try and find it. Yeah, this one. There's an example that you gave, which I thought was very technically interesting, right? Which was...

take a look at my downloads folder and deal with this for me. And it dealt with it in a really great way. But I'm like, I probably could have done that. Now you do reference that John Voorhees has over a thousand things in his downloads folder. And so it did a better job, I'm sure, than he could have done in the amount of time to deal with that stuff. But I know that in this, you're like showing examples of the types of things it can do. But there is that thing of like, for someone who's not willing to write an Apple script,

They have to be able to ship this product with enough built-in stuff that I can type these commands in and feel like that I'm actually saving time and it's not just like, look at this fancy toy, right? Yeah.

I think so. And that is the challenge right now. It's going to be interesting because it's also going to be integrated with your Google account. So it's going to have direct Gmail integration. It's going to use Cloud for writing the scripts.

You can use multiple versions of Cloud. I tested Opus 4. It did an excellent job. What else I did I forgot to mention? Let's see. It doesn't care which browser you use, obviously, because of the window content thing. And it's also integrated with Google Maps. So you can also use Google Maps if you want as a provider. Again, my personal theory is that

There's another shoe to drop for this product, which has to be down the road, some version of computer use. Because by computer use, I mean like, okay, Sky, actually do this thing for me in this app. Actually take control of my computer. That has to be something...

down the road for these folks, but I don't know. Yeah, well, at the moment, the only things that it can seem to do is the stuff that the APIs provide. Like, I don't know

send a message. It's not actually opening messages and sending the message. It's just sending it via the APIs. The integration. Yeah. It's not actually clicking the messages icon and interacting with the messages window on your behalf. But I think it's a good thing that it's not yet trying to do that. I think it's too early to do that.

right? Yeah, probably best to do it later also because like computer use as a thing in the AI space is very early. There's tons of different models right now and sort of like the dust still needs to settle on

on that. And so it's probably best for them to wait and just say, look, we have this collection of built-in tools. We can read your content from any window. You can ask questions about any window on your computer. And when it comes to taking actions, you have these built-in tools or you can use any of these custom ones. It'll be interesting to see also if they will leverage what they did with workflow and shortcuts, which was the community aspect.

Will you be able to actually share custom tools with people? It's going to be interesting. Also because those custom tools can even be regular AI prompts. Because it's based on AI, a tool can be a custom instruction. Just text. Just text. And so it'll be interesting to see if there's going to be, I don't know, a directory aspect. Obviously, these folks, they...

They should have some expertise on that front, given the workflow used to have one. Shortcuts still has one. But I don't know. I haven't heard or seen anything about that. I hope it does, because I would like to share stuff with people. I think even if they don't, there'll obviously be a subreddit or something. So I think it makes sense for them to embrace it. And that was, I mean, thinking back to it.

That was one of the things that made workflow so cool, like that you could, you, Federico, could build something and then share it on Mac Stories and like your readers could download the thing and do it, right? And shortcuts, you know, they've sort of kept it alive, but I think if Apple had started shortcuts on its own, maybe that would not have been a feature even, but I hope they lean into it. I think it makes sense. Yeah.

There's one thing that you kind of reference, and we've spoken about it here a little bit, and I do think it's important to talk about, which is the when it works aspect of this kind of technology. Right? That, like, all of this is great when it works. And I wonder...

you know, like how it's complicated, right? If we're doing something here where now I'm interacting with my computer and doing things on my computer and computery things, especially looking forward to like computer use, building this kind of tool

There is that risk of like, do you end up just annoying your users because it doesn't work the way that they expect, right? Like they try to do a thing and it just doesn't work. And how much control do they have over that, right? When the LLMs are powering it at the end, like if you build an app where you've written all the code for the app, you have control to a degree of how it functions when a user tries to use it.

But when you're kind of giving your house over to the LLM, it's like, well, it's going to do what it's going to do, right? They can put checks and balances in place, but they cannot control the output for the input. You just can't because...

Otherwise, you wouldn't use the LLM if you could control its response in every time. And this is a question we just don't have the answer for yet. But tools like this, how do you feel about them? Do we end up feeling about them the same way that we feel about Siri in the long run? Because you ask it to do something and it doesn't do it? How many times is a user willing to accept

that kind of to accept faults you know or like or is the technology so good that you're willing to accept faults more often like i just don't know right like we don't know

my understanding is that the challenge over the past few months has been like, not necessarily like, obviously also programming the app itself and all of the macOS integrations, but also like sort of managing the ILM, you know, like trying to

Trying to manage something that is by design, I don't want to say unmanageable, but it's non-deterministic. It can produce unexpected stuff. It can hallucinate results. I took a look at the system prompt for Sky, even though I wasn't supposed to. And I did it on my own. I didn't publish it. It's a really good system prompt. And I can tell you that they have put a lot of

checks in different places for making sure that things go a certain way the two hallucinations that i saw were actual bugs in how they were dealing with like for example one of them was getting a link from spotify like it was a very specific thing um

But at the same time, sure, they can have a really good system prompt. Sure, they can have this structure where they have some local stuff happening that is checking what gets passed to the LLM and then it's checking again what returns from the LLM. And this is not unheard of. I think Simon Wilson, for example, theorized this.

this idea of the dual LLM approach, where you have two LLMs actually working together, one to check what the other is doing. Interesting stuff. And Google actually published a white paper on this a couple of months ago. I forgot, is it called the camel architecture? Where you basically have two LLMs, one is quarantined and the other is not, and one of them is checking the output of the other. Crazy stuff. There's a paper that you can find somewhere.

But even, you know, despite all the checks that you can put in places, can you have 100% guarantee that this is always going to go the way you expect? No. Like, at this point, scientifically, no. You can't have that. You can check that NLM always returns output in a certain way. And if it doesn't, you're going to block the answer. Like...

If you expect the LLM to give you, I don't know, some Python code or some JSON and it doesn't, you can have a little actual traditional code in your app that says, well, this is not Python. I'm not going to show this to the user. But what if the Python code is bad? What if it is Python code? What if it is AppleScript, but it's actually bad? Do you have 100% guarantee that it's going to work? No.

you don't. And, you know, that's, I guess, the bargain that we signed up for. But yeah. But at the same time, it also gives you the flexibility to do stuff that

you couldn't do before, right? And that's the whole thing, I suppose. Like, at the same time, this thing that sometimes can hallucinate or can be wrong or can produce unexpected content at the same time, it's also the technology that allows you to just chat and ask stuff with typos and, you know, natural language. So, yeah, it's a balance.

It's another example of someone beating Apple to shipping something they said they would do. Right. And this goes, I think, much further even than like the personal assistant stuff Apple outlined at WBDC. But man, what's going on in the Apple software division? Yeah.

Here's a funny thing that I'm just going to mention. I saw a while back somebody on the internet, I don't remember where, but I saw somebody actually reverse engineer app intents, like third-party app intents. I saw somebody, I'll try my best to find the link, that was able to put together a proof of concept that could call third-party shortcuts actions from third-party apps

in their third-party app. Now, obviously, this is something that only Siri can do. You know, the whole idea of like Apple intelligence and using third-party app intents.

I think people are trying to reverse engineer that using private APIs. So it'll be so funny. It'll be so funny if the Sky folks or somebody else tries to reverse engineer App Intense and ships the Apple Intelligence demo before Apple Intelligence. That'll be so funny if it happens. I'll try my best to find that link of the person who was attempting this.

That seems risky. Like that seems the kind of thing where like you would build a thing and then they might just pull the rug from under you because they don't really care about you. They're like doing their own thing. Yeah. I sent this to Finn. I'll put it in the show notes. I sent this to Finn, obviously the one through son for research purposes. Um, but this was the idea. Um,

It's somebody that was able to put a proof of concept together that can call third-party actions and intents with SIP, System Integrity Protection, still enabled on macOS, still enabled, just, as they say, just a little private API happening. A little. Just a little private API. Yeah.

Man. Well, this will be exciting to see where it goes. And congrats on the exclusive. Thank you. Thank you. Super cool. Thank you. Super, super cool. Hopefully, the final thing I'll say, hopefully this launches to the public before it gets acquired by somebody. Yeah. Apple should buy them again. I don't know if they would want to do that, but I feel like...

I mean, Apple can't do it this way, right? This is... I understand what you're saying, Stephen, but Apple can't do it this way. I just feel like this is too inherently strange, which is good about it. That's the good thing about it. I just don't think Apple could do it the way that they're doing it. But the idea behind the way all of this is working, they could take the ideas, right? There are really good ideas here. The Skyshot thing is a very clever way of doing stuff like this. I also wonder...

I want, you know, there was that rumor of like Apple's models. I wonder if like Apple's models could be used here so you could do things on device. So like, I don't know, who knows how good they would be. But yeah, I mean, will they be bought? Will this ever see the light of day? I hope so because I want to play with it, but we'll have to wait and see, right? We'll have to wait and see.

This episode of the show is brought to you by Connected Pro members. Connected Pro is the longer ad-free version of the show that we do each and every week. So the way that we do this is we have an extra topic, usually at the beginning of the show. At the end of the show, we have some banter and pick a title and hang out for a little while.

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Oh, God. Apple loves games. Mark Gurman reporting the other day that Apple is planning basically like a hub for gaming that would be a, quote, seeking to sell gamers and developers idea that it's a leader in the market. So this is like a combo of

game launcher and achievement and leaderboards and editorial content of course apple arcade promotion so if you see a red badge on this app icon it's just apple trying to sell you apple arcade um have i hit my head or does apple have game center still like or not not really it's not what it used to be right

Game Center is just in the settings app now. It's not what you think. Yeah, it really isn't. And the reason I had this thing today where John Voy has pointed this out to me, that Game Center is not a dedicated app and it hasn't been for a long time. Game Center exists. The functionality and the references to it

it but it's like in settings and it pops up in certain games it's a like game center used to be its own application right where you could go and you could like look at stuff that was happening yeah it was felty it was felty for for at least one iteration in its life

And then it was bubbly. Remember the iOS 7 redesign? Oh, that was weird. I do remember that. The icon of it when it pops up in games is still bubbles. There are still bubbles, but it's not as bubbly as it used to be. Yeah. Still bubbles. What a weird thing. So as well as that...

The Mac version would be able to show games that were apparently not downloaded on the App Store, and this would be part of the WWDC announcement. Apple have also acquired a company called Rack 7, who made a game called Sneaky Sasquatch, which was an Apple Arcade game. For some reason, they have acquired this team of two game developers, which is...

odd it's very strange acquisition feels like a strong word when it's just two people but i mean hey congrats to them yeah i mean it's still an acquisition there's a company they bought the company yeah um i don't know why um apple referenced that like it's a games thing like it's they're not like hiring these guys as developers for game center or whatever like

The quote that they gave, I'm trying to bring it up now, but MacRumors is not loading. But it's, we love Sneaky Sasquatch and we're excited that the two-person team has joined Apple to continue their work on it with us. We will continue to deliver a great experience for Apple Arcade players. I don't understand why they have done that. That is interesting to me. Especially there are other development studios that they give a similar amount of

love to like the what the car what the bat team well like they just seemingly at this point seem to just be making games for apple arcade like they have like a new one every year or something i don't understand what's going on here like in my dream world this is a game store

And then games are separated from the app store. And there is an app store and a game store with different rules for each of them. This is my dream scenario of what they're building here. Yeah. But I do not think that that is what is going on. But it's what I would like to occur. So, like, the game store, that split is $70.30. But the app store is $10.90. Like, that's the kind of thing I want to see. I don't think that's what this is.

But if it's just this, I don't know what the point of it is. I don't know why this is going to happen. I don't know what they expect to get from it. I think a split like that would have worked five years ago. But I think the situation that Apple is in now legally and reputationally with the App Store, like say they split it and developers get a better cut than game developers, like that would only last so long.

in the world of courts and lawsuits. Who even knows anymore? You know what? I agree with you, but who even knows anymore? At least it would be they were trying something. And it would preserve most of their in-app purchase, right? Most of their in-app purchase money is from games. It's a lot of money for regular developers, right? But in the scale of Apple, it's mostly game.

You know, maybe scheme was the right word, actually. Yeah, scheme is a good one. Hard to say. Scheme has a couple of different meanings and it works great in both of these scenarios. I'm a writer. Federico, as our resident gamer, how do you feel about this? To me, this sounds like Apple is creating a copy of...

Do you guys ever owned a Backbone controller? Yes. Good call. To me, this sounds like an Apple version of the Backbone app, which is basically a launcher for all the games that you have installed on your device. Plus, they also have integration with streaming and that sort of thing. I don't mean to sound too harsh because...

Whenever I am harsh, I upset some people. And so I'm going to try my best. But it feels to me as if this is yet another delusion from Apple's part to put up this pretense that they understand video games when they only understand video games in the context of a financial product. And I mean, obviously, people make video games because, you know, they want to make money.

But Apple seems to always treat video games as a revenue source. They never truly put in the same amount of care

and love into games as they're doing for, say, Apple TV+. Like, obviously, Apple TV needs to make money. But you can also tell that they care about the artistic form of films and television. Like, you can tell that they care. And also, it needs to make money. But the two things can coexist. And to me, with the App Store and Apple Arcade, I don't know, it always felt...

like a like a like a half-baked effort to say yeah we we do love you know games um

But this seems like another attempt to say, hey, look at us, look at all these games that we have on the App Store for families and that you can use for free. And some AAA stuff, I'm sure this will be another great storefront for Death Stranding, Assassin's Creed, and No Man's Sky, and those other five games that they sort of rotate in their press releases, what they should have done.

is understand that they either work with Steam and Xbox or they don't. That's what I would have... I think Quinn Nelson was posting about this last night. Like, what I would have done is... You're Apple. You fundamentally hate Epic, right? You hate Epic games, all right? Cool. You go to Valve. You're like, hey, Valve, all right, listen to us.

We're going to work with you. We're going to, we want to work with you to actually make Steam on the Mac a great place for video games. Here's the game porting toolkit technology that we have. Please work with us to make sure that it's comparable to Proton and to the compatibility layer that you have. That's what they were supposed to do on the Mac. On iOS and iPadOS...

Work with Microsoft. Work with everybody except Epic Games to say, all right, what do you want to bring your cloud games or Game Pass, whatever it is, can you please, please bring these games to iOS and iPadOS? Essentially, what I'm saying is,

On desktop, there's a company that you got to go to and it's Valve. And on mobile devices, there's PlayStation and there's Nintendo to an extent and there's Microsoft because Microsoft truly wants Xbox to be everywhere. That's what I would have done. I wouldn't do yet another quasi-app store, storefront, where you sort of take out the games and you put a little, you know, a couple of stories a week to say, these games are great. You know, we have Tetris and we have Monopoly and we have, I don't know,

But you do what I imagined if you understand video games. And if games for you are just another App Store category, then that's your problem. I know that there are people there that understand games because they got Bellator. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Right? Like, the people that did that, I want to see them making more of the big decisions. Yeah.

at Apple Arcade and at Apple in gaming because that was smart. That was really smart and that would have cost a lot of money and they did it and they made it work and it was great. I know that there are people that understand how to do it. They are clearly not given the resources and comparing it to Apple TV is really smart. I never thought about that before because the people that are making the Apple TV shows are absolutely given the agency and resources. Apple Arcade is not the same way.

But I feel like Apple could make more money from games than they could make from TV on iOS. Yeah. They absolutely could. And I mean, it doesn't...

The thing is, if you don't find a way to combine the culture and to combine the care with the resources and the money, it doesn't matter how deep your pockets are. I mean, look at Netflix and all the studios they acquired, the people they acquired, the exclusives that they got for Netflix games, and then it all went to, you know, to that place.

It's like, it doesn't really matter how much money you have. There's plenty of companies these days with, I was going to say disposable income, with billions of dollars. That's not disposable income. There's all kinds of companies with billions of dollars who could do games

And some of them I tried. But ultimately they fail because you require that combination of money and the care. And if you don't have both, you're just going to end up being another Google Stadia and other Netflix games. Netflix is the elephant in the room because Netflix got all the right games.

Right? And it doesn't seem to have worked for them. Now, you could argue the reason it hasn't worked is because, like with Apple TV, and I think Netflix have really put a lot of money into talking about the fact that they have games. They're acquiring the rights to lots of great games, but they're not doing a very good job of telling their customers that they should use them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know. I mean...

I'm sure this will be one of the big announcements in iOS 19. Game Store, Games App, whatever. I bet it's going to be called the Games App. Apple Games. Apple Games. Oh, yes, it's Apple Games. For sure. You're right. It's Apple Games. We'll see. Maybe there's more acquisitions coming. Who knows?

Before we wrap up, so next week we're doing the Rikis, so that will probably be pretty focused on talking about WWDC. But next week, the Nintendo Switch 2 launches, the day after we record. And so I wanted to get a quick hype check from the gang about the Nintendo Switch 2. Stephen, do you want to start? I did not pre-order one. We're going to do it for the holidays. Do you regret that? A little bit, because my plan was to do it for the holidays, and now I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to find one.

I will say my 10-year-old has been talking to his cousin and they are both very excited about the Switch 2, but my brother's plan also is to wait to the holidays. And so I think Mark and I will have to do this in conjunction so the cousins can play together. But yeah, super excited for the reviews and to see what people think about it. My advice to you. So apparently there is, it's looking like...

there is going to be stock available when it launches in stores. I might just go ahead and get one on the way. You should just try and get one because if you wait till the holidays, you might be paying more money. Yeah, that's true. It's true.

Did y'all pre-order? I forget. We talked about it. Oh, yeah. I pre-ordered two. One for me and one for Mr. Brandon Bigley. Oh, did you? Yeah. That's how that went down in the end. Yeah, yeah. How are you going to get it to him? I'm going to ship it to him. To Japan? Yes. Oh, my God. Wait. So, like, you're Brandon's John? Yeah.

Yes. Are you not going to ship it to John and have John send it to Brendan? That feels more like, is John coming over to ship it to Brendan? What's happening? Have I guys told you? Have I told you guys that I have a new shipments guy?

No. Do you know about my new guy? No. I don't know about your new guy. All right. So there's this guy, Alessio. All right. His guy, in theory, well, not in theory, in practice also, like he runs this newsstand, old fashioned newsstand shop. Oh, this is great. That's cool. Okay. Okay. All right. We still have quite a few newsstands in Rome. A lot of them have closed over the years, obviously.

But what I've noticed is that a lot of newsstands have sort of repurposed their business with being delivery points and shipment points for all kinds of packages and Amazon, obviously, or selling cards for trading card games like Pokemon, Magic, One Piece, all the popular card games. Do they sell vapes too? Yeah.

No, they don't sell vapes. I haven't seen vapes. And apparently they're making quite a bit of money, especially with the delivery stuff. So Alessio, you know, I found out about Alessio a few months ago. It's become my best friend. Now we, you know, when I go there, like today I went there.

Had like 10 packages that I needed to ship. All Amazon returns, basically. And so every time we chat, and it's very flexible, he supports all of the major couriers. And then we end up talking about video games, because he's also a gamer. So we were talking about Xbox and Oblivion and all that kind of stuff. Cool guy. So I am going to use Alessio to ship Brandon's Nintendo Switch 2 to Japan.

That is incredible. I feel like we just got an NPC exclusive. NPC listeners just got an exclusive, which is great. Do you guys remember my story about the original Nintendo Switch? I know you did a video review of it. I remember that. Because I wanted one that bad. Because I wanted to do that. I pre-ordered three of them.

That's right. From different services. Well, I did it again. I pre-ordered three Nintendo Switches again for the same reason as last time, which is like retail here in the UK when it comes to Nintendo is very weird. Like they all just started selling them randomly, not on the agreed upon date.

And none of them are clear about whether you're actually going to get it on release day or not. So I ordered one. The first one I got was from a site I do not trust. The second one was from a website I trusted. And that was going to be the end of it. Then there was a company who's like, yeah, but you can just come pick it up from a store. And I was like, that's the one I want. So I have three pre-orders, but they already all have homes, right? Like people that couldn't get them. So one will go to my wife and one of my best friends from home couldn't get one. I was like,

great i have three so it's like same as last time where last time one went to a friend and one went to my brother like i'm not like flipping these things it's people that tried and couldn't get them but i'm just more plugged into the system and was able to get a bunch of pre-orders in so i'm gonna have mine on day one i'm gonna go pick it up from a toy store which is just like fantastic i'm so happy about that i'll be there when it opens pick it up come home and what's so good i'm so happy about this so

My mother-in-law is coming to help out during WWDC week. So, like, I can work late and, like, you know, there'll be help at home. She's arriving on that day. So, like, I will get, like, a day and a half of, like,

I'm just going to play Nintendo. I'm going to go upstairs and I'm going to play Nintendo. And I am so excited about this. This is lining up just right for me. I'm really excited about it. I'm really excited about Mario Kart. That's the whole thing of me for launch. It's Mario Kart. That's what I'm most excited about. Yeah, I'm so, so deeply excited about getting your Nintendo console, Mario Kart,

And I think I've decided I am going to play Breath of the Wild again.

instead of Tears of the Kingdom. If anything, because I do know that deep down in my heart, I prefer that game. And so I'm going to play that game again. And I think I'm just going to download a bunch of stuff to see what it's like on the Nintendo Switch 2. But I think I'm going to play Cyberpunk on it. I want to see what it's like to play a really demanding game on the Nintendo Switch 2, despite...

Spoilers, I guess. Despite me now having a proper gaming PC, I want to see what it's like on the Nintendo Switch 2. Yeah, I'm intrigued. I'm really intrigued. Like...

how are these things actually going to run? Like, truly? We're going to find that out in the reviews. Did you see that Nintendo's not sending reviews? Yeah, it's not clear. Are they really doing this? There's not going to be press with review access before? IGN said no. That's silly. Why? I don't know. That's not great.

IGN said no. IGN said that they were not getting units and so they'll be doing reviews in progress from when it starts. That is weird. It's usually not a good sign. Or Nintendo just don't care. Nintendo just don't care. Does it matter if you sell all that you can make?

It doesn't really. Yeah, IGM reported there will be no early Switch 2 reviews. It's taken me to a Reddit post where it says the post was deleted by the person who posted it. So take that with a grain of salt. I've just said it, and now I'm not sure anymore. Because that was a thing I saw on Blue Sky, and now I'm struggling to find sourcing of it. But they said it. They said it initially. I don't know what's going to happen.

Well, I think that does it for this week. If you want to find links to all the stuff we spoke about, including Federico's great look at Sky, they're in your podcast player and they're on the web at relay.fm slash connected slash 554. Two of those links are special. One of them you can leave feedback or follow up for the show. You can do it anonymously. There's a little checkbox there. And you can also get Connected Pro, the longer ad-free version of the show that we do each and every week.

You can find us online. Federico is the editor-in-chief of MacStories.net, hosts a bunch of podcasts over there. Mike hosts a bunch of shows here at Relay, and you can check out his work at Cortex Brand. I write 512pixels.net and co-host MacPowerUsers here on Relay every Sunday. I'd like to thank our sponsor this week, Ecamm, for their support of the show. And until next time, guys, say goodbye. Adios. Cheerio.

I'm taking back the chairmanship. Just wait. Yeah, good luck. Good luck.