555: The Rickies (June 2025)
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From Relay, this is Connected, episode 5, 5, 5. And it is the Rickies for WWDC. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace, NetSuite, and ZocDoc. My name is Mike Hurley. I am your defending keynote chairman. And I would like to introduce Reigning.

and your chairman, Federico Botticchi. Hi, Federico. Hello, Mike. I'm coming in for the other title. The keynote chairman title will also be mine. You're looking for consolidation. Yes, I am looking for the unification of titles next week. We're also joined by the podcaster formerly known as Stephen Hackett, now also known as Stephen.

Hey. Hello, Stephen. I didn't know where that was going. You lost your last name in the process. Now you're just Stephen. That's tough. There's a group of people in my life from a certain time that just call me by my last name. So you've kind of done the opposite. Yeah. Does anybody, is there anybody in the world that gets away with calling you Steve? No, I really dislike it.

I know you do, but is there anyone that calls you it and you just don't correct them? No, I correct them. It doesn't happen very often. It's like nobody calls me Federico in real life. People just call me Tichi. My mom calls me Federico and my doctor. Only my family call me Michael. Yeah. Because I don't like it. Steve is weird. While we're just doing this,

Do your significant others call you by your name or do you have like a pet name they use all the time? No, Tichi. If Adina calls Mike, then I'm in trouble. Okay. Yeah. No, if you ever hear Sylvia call me Federico, like hope that I'm on the run or something.

And at this point, so we had pet names for each other. We have now absolutely fully entrenched into mama and papa. It was a thing that I never wanted to do. You can't.

And I was like, no, we will not do this. That's how you call me daddy sometimes. Exactly. But that's the thing that you asked me to do one time and now I have to keep doing. But no, we're very much into mama and papa territory. And I think that might just be the way it goes now. I got to say, when we're talking, when me and Silvia individually, when we're talking to the dog,

We also refer to the other person as mama or papa. So like if Sylvia is talking to dogs, it's like, hey, go to papa, you know? So that was how it started. And now it's just like, now I just call mama. Like, I'm like, mama, can you bring this? Like, it's just, we're in it now. We're in it now. There's nothing we can do about it.

Nice. And also, I think the fact that we chose Mama and Papa, like, it feels different than if it was Mum to me, right? Because, like, that's a different thing where, like, I had never called my mum Mama and she never called her dad Papa because that's not how you'd say it in Romanian. You'd say Tata. So, like, it would be Mama and Tata and...

Anyway, so it works for me because like there's only one person in my life I've ever called mama. Yeah. I'm like, I'm like Federico. If Mary says, Stephen, either I am in trouble or something serious is happening. And like, she's trying to get my attention. Yes. You know, like Stephen, the, you know, the house is on fire or whatever it might be. Or if family is over, then they do know what called me Mike. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So we're not the mom and the pop-up. Nice look at our personal lives as an intro for this episode. Trying to humanize each other before...

tearing each other to pieces. Before we don't. We also have some follow-up to do before we get into the Rickies. And a big thank you to listener Matt, who had the Motorola rocker and who had not responded to my email. They heard me on the show. They emailed me back. They had some personal stuff going on. So totally all forgiven. And the rocker's on the move. I'm very excited. Very.

Very excited. That's weird because in our messages, you said you would never forgive them. So that's like super weird that like now in public, you're like, yeah, no problem. Because like I remember you said to me in Federico, I don't care. Nothing is more important than my rocker. So it's like really strange that you're saying this in front of everyone. It's really weird. Not true at all. Yeah. So right now in parcel, I've got a rocker E1 and it was accepted in Canada yesterday. So yeah.

Oh, good. Could it be rejected in Canada? It could be. Do they not like the rocker? It could be. Also have a lens coming from China. Okay. And a pair of glasses from Warby Parker. So that's what's going on in Parkes all the day. Will you give me some new frames?

No, I don't know how I did it. I scratched my current glasses pretty badly, but they're new, and so they're under their scratch warranty thing. Okay. It's like they shipped them to me, and I shipped the old ones back or something. Nice. I wouldn't care, except it's right in my line of vision. I honestly don't know how it happened, but it's terrible. Okay, Philip wrote in, just a quick note on the Apple Watch battery replacement. I had my Series 8 at 79% battery health recently replaced at the Apple Store.

Turns out they just don't swap the battery. They give a new watch. For them, it was 109 Germany dollars. Germany dollars? I think that's right. Yes, the famous Germany dollars. The famous German dollar. It was Deutschmark, right? Yeah. See, that's what was in my mind, but I knew it was wrong. Federico, was it Lira? Lira in Italy. No, that's an RSS app, I think.

Yes, yes, yes. You got it right. So anyways, Philip says, super smooth process, took five days, and they mailed me a new one. There you go. By the way, I should also mention on this topic, something that considerably improved my aging first generation Apple Watch Ultra that I should have thought about it.

I didn't realize that I had the optimized battery charging setting turned on.

And so that's why it was not lasting that much because it was never fully topping up the Apple Watch. Yeah, but now it's like... Whatever. You know what I mean? Yes. I mean, at this point, the battery is done for anyway. Well, done for. I mean, it's 86%, so it's kind of done for. Might as well enjoy the full 100% charge, you know? Yeah.

And that made it a little bit better. Live a little. Yeah, live a little. Live a little.

We have more from Not Mark Gurman. Ah, our favorite. There's a lot on the line for this feedback writer next week. Can we just start referring to this person as NMG? NMG says, iPad OS 26 will have macOS-like app windows. The number of windows allowed at once will be determined by the amount of physical RAM on the device.

3 gigabytes for 3 windows, 4 gigabytes for 4 windows, 6 gigabytes for 8 windows, I bet you thought I was going to say 6, 8 gigabytes for 12. Picture-in-picture window does not count towards the limit. Okay, so it's going up exponentially, is that how this works? Yeah, if you have 12 gigabytes, you have 100 windows. It's like that thing with, if you take a grain of rice and you put it on a chessboard and double it, by the end of the chessboard there's more rice than there is in the world or something like that. That's where we are with this. Yeah.

NMG, I mean, there's a lot on the line here for you. We have how many predictions so far? Three? There have been three, and I don't remember the entire detail of all of them, but we do have them all in our notion, so we can go back and check them. These are like the three secrets of, what's it called? The religious thing? Yeah.

You know what I'm talking about. The three secrets of Fatima. That's what I'm thinking of. You guys never heard of it? I don't know. It's not ringing any bells. Yeah, it's a Catholic thing. The three secrets of Fatima. You don't know about this, Stephen? I'm not Catholic.

Yeah, but like, I know you're not Catholic, okay? I feel like I just started a war on the podcast. No, it's just like, maybe it'll come up. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, it's like vaguely, it's vaguely familiar to me, but not... No love for my Pope, you know what I mean?

Anyway, we have three secrets from not Mark Gurman and we'll see if they come true on Monday. If they do, we gotta reconsider the role that we play in the Apple rumor mill.

If we are right on this, seriously though, that is because we were before Mark Gurman. So we got that tip, which we thought was a joke, and we read on the show about there being Mac-like window management on iPads. I've got all three. You got them? Yes. Can you read the three secrets, please? Yes.

iPad is getting triangular pointer when magic keyboard is in use for easier targeting of UI elements than the existing circular pointer, which is terrible for text selection. Okay. So triangle pointer is one. Triangle pointer. Number two, it's a shame to hear that you're going back to the Mac Federico because this year iPad OS is getting live window resizing and positioning similar to Mac OS and vision OS. Winky face. Okay.

Winky face. And then this one about the number of windows allowed at once will be determined by the amount of physical RAM on the device. So really it's like two and a half picks. Well, no, this one is more macOS-like app windows. It's actually kind of different to the other one, which is that one just spoke about live window movement and positioning. And this is like over this, I'm assuming many windows on screen at once, right? So they're kind of the three things. So it's triangular pointer,

multiple windows, like Mac-like window management is what I'll call it, I guess, and live window resizing and positioning. So I guess things can overlap and you can do whatever you want with them. I was saying this on Upgrade when me and Jason were doing the draft, and it was just like a wild realization that I had, which is

On VisionOS, you can overlap Windows completely. But on iPad, you can't do that. I just don't know how we got to this. I don't know how we got there. It's so strange to me. Wow. NMG coming in with the three secrets. Yeah. We'll see how they do. This episode of Connected is brought to you by Squarespace, the all-in-one website platform designed to help you stand out and succeed online.

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The Rickies is a game connected hosts play before Apple Keynotes and the beginning of a new year trying to predict future events. It's made up of three rounds. Each host makes two regular picks followed by a risky pick. There are two types of Rickies. Today we are playing the Keynote Rickies. The winner is named the Keynote Chairman. This position is held until the next Keynote. Hosts should be introduced at the top of each episode according to their current titles.

In the event that a host has both positions, they shall be introduced as Ricky Benchman. So if Federico wins, he's Ricky Benchman for a while.

I've totally forgotten about Benchmen. Benchmen. So that's good. That's really good. I love being reminded of these things. Yeah. I read this document yesterday. I was like, there's a lot of stuff in here. After the Rickies, the hosts then play a game called the Flexies. These two games are separate but related. Please stand for the reading of the rules.

Each host gets to make two regular picks. Hosts can be granted a bonus regular pick for any previously incorrect pick that has now come true from the last three corresponding games. A previously incorrect pick may only be used once. Correct regular picks are awarded one point. The language used for the regular picks must be finalized and agreed upon during recording. No partial points may be awarded. Risky picks have a more complex scoring system.

Each host must make a pick with three supporting details. If you get all three details correct, you earn two points. Two details correct earn you one point. If you get one detail correct, you get zero points. And if you get all three details wrong, you lose one point. Points are awarded based on the details, not the overall pick. Picks must have been approved as risky by the other two hosts before the start of the game.

Picks made for the keynote rickies cannot be reused by the host who made them for the next keynote. For keynote rickies, the scoring window starts when the live stream begins and closes when picks are scored. Any information used in scoring must be publicly verifiable at the time of recording. All hosts are allowed to reuse picks previously made by others. Scoring is completed during recording and cannot be modified once an episode is complete.

In the event of a tie, dice by Peacock must be used in relay mode to pick a winner. In the case of a three-way tie, hosts all make their calls at the same time, with flipping continuing until a winner is named. Now this next bullet point is new.

Jason Snell previously had a lifetime ban on flipping any coins in relation to the Rikis. However, after graduating Coin Flip University during the 2024 Podcastathon for St. Jude, he can now flip a coin under direct supervision. The order of picks is set by previous performance. The winner of the previous associated game goes first. The previous loser goes last. Winners will be recognized during the closing ceremonies.

As a reminder, Federico is the current annual chairman and Mike is the defending keynote chairman. Past results can be seen at rookies.co and rookies.net. These sites also have pages about managing your own scorekeeping at home. You may be seated. Just to confirm...

Jason's still not going to be flipping the coins, but he's just not banned. He's just not banned. That's right. We're still going to be using dice by B calc. Um, but you know, yeah, I think that's clear in there. I think, you know, I just wanted to make sure that Jason knows this. Yeah. Um, specifically. So, so happy graduated, you know, me too. It was an incredible moment. Um,

Everyone was very excited about it. It was really great. But yes, as Jason points out in the live Discord, if Dice by Peacock is ever discontinued or James deletes that part of the code, he's ready. We can pull him in when we need him. Yeah, we'll deal with that if James retires or something. Honestly, if James retires, I think Relay has to take over Dice by Peacock, but that's a topic for another day. Yeah, we can deal with that when the time comes. That's right. So with the rules read, it is time for round one.

Okay. So that's me, right? That is you. Okay, so round one pick. Significantly new OS design on at least one platform. You're hedging. Okay. Yeah, I mean, come on. What would be the non-hedge version? Like on all platforms? Is that the...

The non-hedged version? No, no, no. I'm just... I know. I originally, my pick was there was a significantly new OS design and I was like, ah, I've played this game too many times to just allow that to happen. Have you seen the concept by Sebastian DeWitt? I did. Yeah. It's really nice looking. I like the idea of like, what does he call it? Like living glass? Is that the expression? Yeah. Um...

I mean, it looks really good to me. I still kind of wonder what such a version of a design could look like on macOS. I think of all platforms, the most interesting ones for me to look for will be macOS and watchOS. But yeah, I'm intrigued. I think watchOS...

WatchOS is not going to look like the others. It will take some stuff, like maybe app icons, maybe fonts, that kind of thing. But I... Yeah. I'm also, in general, I'm very excited about the new design. I'm very excited about it. I'm not sure that I just assume the glass-like look. Like...

My kind of feeling, everyone says it's going to look like Vision OS. And I wonder if that has been taken too much on face value and that it's not going to be a transparent operating system. But when we see it, we're like, oh, they meant like this. Like whatever. And I don't know what that answer is, right? Like, I don't know exactly what it would be. And it could be all glossy. But like, I'm just, I'm not sure.

Sure. Like to me, I could imagine like one of the, one of I think the key things about vision OS design is there is more physical layering and structure and shadow. I could imagine that more than transparent windows, which I feel like a lot of people think is going to happen. You know, like on vision OS compared to other operating systems, like,

It really does feel like buttons and text and icons sit on top of something, right? That there is a physicality to the operating system, which doesn't exist on any of their other platforms, where it just feels like these are pixels on a screen, not like physical objects that you can manipulate.

So I could see that more than I do glass. But my thing with OS design is just like, we have no idea. You have no idea. You have to just wait and see. And I am really excited about it. Like I'm very, very excited about it. I think it's going to be super fun to talk about pixel placement for a few months. And I'm really looking forward to that. Yeah. I mean, tricky to see if...

the new design has an explanation to go along with it that is more practical than visual. Like instead of, well, obviously it's going to look new and that we pretty much can assume. But is there going to be an explanation from Apple that says, we're doing this design because we think it also enables from a practical functional perspective, like it makes these specific interactions better. And I'm thinking like,

How they position this design will also say a lot about their future hardware. Like, is this, because this is going to be the design language that you're going to see on a home pod with a screen and potentially on glasses. So the practical explanation that they give for this design language will probably suggest a few things for the future hardware that we're going to see from Apple. And that I think is the most interesting part. Like, obviously, I mean, the look, the look of it will be interesting, but also the explanation of it.

I think it's like, what is the user experience design portion of this? Not just the UI design. Like, why did you do it? You know, when, when iOS seven was very much more UI than it was user experience. Yes. But that, you know, there are many reasons for that, which have been well told at this point, but it was just that, you know, that was really more of just a fresh coat of paint than it was a bit of a rethink. Yeah.

I hope there is a bit of a rethink because that's just the most interesting it could possibly be. But I'm really excited about it. Stephen is somebody who would be helping manage a full-scale redesign of a whole suite of applications. How are you feeling about it? Excited but afraid.

Yeah, I think this is like, I saw Underscore this week and I can tell he's really excited about it. And I feel like that level of excitement will make your life harder. I told him this morning, because we were talking about Apple Watches, I was like, if they do an OS redesign and they give us third-party watch faces, like, I'm afraid for Underscore. Yeah, his keyboard will catch on fire, I think, is what's actually going on. So hopefully that's not a...

Not both. But yeah, I'm excited about it. You know, I agree with Federico. I want to hear the reason. I'm not sure they'll really give one, but we'll see. I mean, they'll say stuff. They said stuff with Seven, right? They're like, oh, you know where you are. It's like, dude, I knew that I dragged something from the edge of the screen, my stuff's still behind it. I have spatial awareness of where things are. Maybe it's just more of that, but it is going to be, I think, exciting either way.

And I am coming around to the idea that it is actually going to be a smart distraction from the things that they're not going to have. Yeah. I mean, you know, thankfully they don't have to redesign their scare screens. That's true. That's true. Well, not yet. Let's see how the appeal goes, you know? You know? DMA compliance is going to look as sexy as ever with the new design. All right. My round one pick. Pretty easy.

Apple rebrands version numbers of its operating systems. So new version numbers. Left unsaid in the pick is it sounds like they're going to do the annual thing. So iOS 26, macOS 26 and so forth. I'm excited about this because I can't ever remember what version we're on anymore. Like I've hit that point now. I think once we got past 15 or 16...

which I think was last year. I don't even know. See, this is the thing. Are we on 18 now? We're on 18, yeah. We're on 18? See, I don't know anymore. It's impossible to know. I don't think anybody knows anymore. So I'm pleased that we're getting ready to move past this time and into something a bit more logical. I will not stand. I'm just telling everyone this right now, all right? I will not stand for, oh, but it's 2025. No, shut up, all right? If they call it iOS 26, okay?

Just shut up, all right? It comes out in September. Most people won't get it on their phones until November. Why would you then call it 25, right? Like, it doesn't make any sense. It makes perfect sense to call it 26. And I will not stand those jokes, all right? Stephen, I don't think you're going to agree with this. Anyone who makes this joke in Discord, immediate ban. I'm suggesting this. We're not doing that. Ah.

Come on. Federico, can I ban people from your Discord? Sure. Come in. Excellent. Excellent. Please. Okay. Do you think it's with an apostrophe or not? I hope not. I hope not, but I kind of want them to do it. I don't know. I'm split. I don't think they will. I don't think they will. No. I say no apostrophe. Yeah. I don't think there will be. Okay.

And then my round one pick, the new version of macOS drops support for some Intel Macs. Okay. It's a Stephen round one pick right there, if I've ever heard one. Wait till you get to my Ricky, baby. I leaned in. You know, you got to do your thing. So, okay.

Can you lay the groundwork for us here? Can you give the context to the people, including us? Yes, of course. And there'll be a link in the show notes because I've been thinking about this pick and wrote a blog post to back it up a couple weeks ago. Sequoia supports various machines from 2017, 2018, 2019. And I think that some of these machines without the T2 security chip may be the ones that go. And they've also supported...

Intel machines longer than they have pre through previous rounds of, of OS releases. Of course, there's a lot more Intel machines running around now and Apple has done the thing now where they've never, they haven't done this in past transitions is they've

Yes, Sequoia runs on Intel Macs, but you don't get a bunch of the features that Apple Silicon Mac users get, right? They've sort of bifurcated the feature list, which is also interesting. But I suspect this list will get pared down a little bit. You know, maybe things like the, I think the rumor is that 2020 MacBook Air may go away soon.

and maybe the 2018 Mac Mini. Maybe it's just those two, but we'll see. Okay, so this isn't as exciting as I thought, which is not a problem, but you still think some Intel Macs could still be supported? We're only going to be getting rid of another swath of them? Yes, I think just a small handful will remain. Okay. Hmm. Okay. Yeah, not all, but some. This is a very Stephen pic. Stephen coded. Yeah. Yeah.

All right, kick us off, Mike. Round two. New features are announced that are powered by Apple Intelligence. Okay, so it's, according to you, it's not going to be a no-show. This is why I wanted to make this pick. Like, I don't think that this is an easy gimme pick, right? But I kind of want to be a little contrarian here. I don't think this is a we're not going to talk about Apple Intelligence year.

I actually think they will find things if they haven't got things that they will say are powered by Apple intelligence, because while we may not see any of the stuff they spoke about last year, I don't, I don't think that they're going to want people to think that they're not doing anything when it comes to AI. So I think we're going to see some new Apple intelligence features that we like, that basically we haven't seen before that,

come to the operating systems in some form. So these are things that are new. Do you want to speculate beyond the text of the PICC?

Yeah, I mean, there are some rumored things, right, which could or could not ship at this point. I do think that stuff that exists out there, the battery management feature, right, that could happen. That could also be saved for the iPhone event, and it's like specifically for the thin phone, right? So, you know, it's like a thing that's out there, but who knows when it's going to ship.

But I think the thing that is most likely going to happen and the thing that I most want them to do is to power the health app with LLM stuff, to be able to tell me and let me speak to it and ask it questions about the data that it provides that Apple does an atrociously bad job of explaining what literally anything means in the health app, right? Like, your VO2 max changed. Great. Right.

what does that mean? Can you help me at all? And so this is what I want them to do. And I'm hoping that they've kind of like built some kind of interesting model. They have so much data, right? That they could use of mine to create a little, here's a personal mic fitness trainer powered by AI. I think that would be pretty sweet. And I hope that they do that. Yeah, makes sense. Okay.

All right, I'm moving into my round two pick. And I will say, I will choose Jason's favorite new feature. The updated Vision OS gets an eye-scrolling feature. Scrolling with your eyes, whatever that means. Sounds fun. No eye-rolling.

Eye scrolling, you know? You're going to look at 512 pixels and move your eyes up and down and you're going to scroll, you know? That's how it's going to work. I don't know, I can imagine something like...

I'm just imagining here, but like sort of staring at a scroll bar for a few seconds to sort of lock in your gaze on the scroll bar and then moving your eyes up and down to scroll more quickly on the page. Something like that is what I'm thinking of. I don't know. So me and Jason were talking a bit about this on Upgrade, right? And someone, I didn't make it to the show, but somebody wrote in and said that this is like

a feature that the HoloLens has or had. And the way that it worked was just, it was just based upon where your eyes are. So if your eyes are at the bottom of a window, it will just start to gently scroll. Yeah. Which I think would be the most natural way that something like this could work. And, and,

you know, like one of the great things about Vision OS, like the operating system and when it, you know, when it works, it does feel like it's kind of reading your mind a little bit, right? Like that's what's one of the things that is quite impressive about the way that it works. And if done well, that kind of thing would maybe kind of proliferate or continue that feeling, right? That like, oh, I want to continue reading and the window is just magically scrolling for me because your eyes are at the bottom of the page.

That will make sense. I like it. Okay. Yeah. So that's my pick. Do you think that'll be something that's just on or maybe is it an accessibility option? Maybe it's just on. Yeah. I think if it's accessibility option, it would have showed it off in Accessibility Awareness Day. That's a good point. I think the time of accessibility features in the keynote are gone. Whether this is a keynote thing or anyway, I don't know. Right.

Depends how much time they want to spend on Vision OS 26. Okay. Yeah, it's good. Good stuff. I'm going with NMG here. iPad OS gets updated window management tools. Okay. It's been a couple years since they've bolted yet another system to the iPad, so why not? Do you think they'll do anything to Mac window management?

to Mac window management? Yeah. I mean, stage manager came to the Mac when they put it on iPad. Yeah. I think if, if, if stage manager still exists the way that it is, but it's updated, then that potentially could come to the Mac. But if all the iPad, if I'm putting all in air quotes, if all the iPad is getting is free range windows, then I don't, I mean, the Mac already has that. So I think that's kind of dependent on what they do in iPad OS, if that makes sense. Yep.

Federico, you and I have some bonus round picks. We each have one. Yes, because we were correct about stuff in the past. Ahead of our time. So we are eligible for bonus picks. I'm screwed. One each. I'm totally cooked.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know that you are necessarily, Mike. We'll see. My bonus round pick is I'm continuing down the path of VisionOS. And I'm going to say at least one VisionOS app in compatibility mode becomes a native one.

So there's a long list of VisionOS apps that are still iPad versions. I mean, look at Calendar, look at Reminder. Yeah, I think Reminder. Some key applications, really. So I'm hoping that at least one will graduate from the bare-bones iPad compatibility layer into a fully VisionOS native application. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, you'd hope so. I mean, if it doesn't, I mean, I'd be sad to lose my bonus pick, but also, you know, Apple should be even sadder, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. And my bonus pick is that...

Are you second guessing? A little bit. I'm second guessing my phrasing, but I'm going to stick with it. The Google Gemini logo is shown on screen as part of a partnership announcement. Is there one? There is a Gemini logo. Okay. Is the logo just says the word Gemini? No, it's the sparkly blue thing that they have.

They have an icon. They have a logo. Yeah. It's like a little star kind of thing. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. What's the alternative? They're just going to mention Google Gemini by name without even a slide? Yeah. I just don't remember if they showed the OpenAI logo. They probably did. But it's, you know, the way I view this too, it's a bonus pick. So it's all upside, really. It's all upside. Yeah.

The possibility is that it's not just Google, right? That they integrate and then you may struggle, right? Where they're just like, and partners and they don't even really get into it. Yeah. But I would expect Google Gemini is part of the operating system. So I think you're pretty solid with this one, to be honest. Yeah, I think so too.

I would say you're more solid than my Vision OS compatibility model. I actually would agree. Poor Vision OS. I know. You want to give us a recap, Stephen, before we go to a break? Yes. So round one, Mike said, significantly new OS design on at least one platform. Federico said, Apple rebrands version numbers of its OSs. I said, the new version of macOS drops support for some Intel Macs.

In round two, Mike predicted that new features are announced that are powered by Apple intelligence. Federico said the updated vision OS gets an eye scrolling feature. And I said, iPad OS gets updated window management tools. And in the bonus round, Federico picked at least one vision OS app and compatibility mode becomes a native one now. And I said, the Google Gemini logo is shown on screen as part of a partnership announcement.

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Conditions. That's right. Yes. Yes. Apple has a new app for gamers. Okay. It's called Apple Games. Okay. That's one. That's condition one. It's called Apple Games. That's condition one. Condition two. It creates new specific developer terms for games. Okay.

Number three, it features a partnership with Microsoft for Xbox Game Pass. That's the real spice. I think the first two things, right? So like Apple games, you're picking a name. It's a terrible thing to do. You should never pick a name, right? Specific developer terms for games. I think that's risky, right? Because...

This is me just completely pulled. Basically what I'm saying here is this is where games live now, right? Like that's, I think they could do here. Like apps are in the app store. Games are in Apple games. Um, but the last part, so my thinking for this is that Apple needs partners as much as they can get them for legal reasons, um,

and for just making people feel better, right? Microsoft said they would launch the Game Store or Game Pass on Apple's platforms and have not done that and have been a bit wishy-washy, like, oh, it's being held up and da-da-da-da-da, you know, we are not there yet. They're being very like, ah, don't worry about it. It's happening or it's not happening, who could tell? I think it would be very interesting for Apple to make partnerships with

that they could offer in some kind of bundle, and Microsoft would be the best possible partner to do that with, I think. I really like this pick. Thank you. Yeah, this is a good one. Okay, all right. So mine... Okay, so the spice in mine will be in number two, and I will explain why later. Okay. So...

The main text is "Apple opens up AFM to developers." Condition one: it's a 3 billion parameter version that only runs on device. Number two: it's designed in a way that only specific "endpoints" can be used with the native API, like summarization or writing or prioritizing content.

Number three, Apple shows off examples of how they're using the same tech in its own systems apps. So my idea is that they're going to open up their foundation model to developers, and there's going to be a small version that is a 3 billion parameter model that runs on device.

That's small? 3 billion? Yeah, it's small. 3, 4 billion, those are usually the phone optimized models. Right. Like DeepSeek, right? Wasn't that kind of...

Well, no, like Google Gemma, for example. Gemma, which is the open source kind of version of Gemini, has a phone-specific version that is the 4 billion parameter. But currently, Apple Intelligence and AFM does have a 3 billion parameter. Like, the Apple Intelligence on device that you have now is powered by a 3 billion parameter version of AFM that runs on your phone. I'm just asking because I'm interested here. So the thinking is...

They haven't got a new one. They're just giving developers access to their existing... I could see Apple saying, well, we have version 2 of AFM or something. Like, we have a new version. But it's not like a...

It's not like a brand new technology. This is what they had before. Maybe they've refined it. You hope they've refined it, right? Because they should be. Yes, yes, yes. This currently exists, but it's only for Apple, right? It's not open to developers. So the condition number one says it's a 3 billion parameter version that only runs on device. And condition three, and I'm leaving the number two for last, condition three says Apple is going to show off examples

of how they actually implemented this in some of their system apps. Number two, here's what I'm thinking. So I said, it's designed in a way that only specific endpoints can be used with a native API, like summarization or writing or prioritizing content. Now, what I'm thinking is,

I don't think Apple is going to open up the model in a way that third-party developers can just prompt the model with whatever they want and sort of emulate a chatbot functionality. I don't think they're going to do that. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if developers cannot prompt AFM whatsoever. What I'm thinking is there's going to be an API in the middle

that says, here's the API for requesting a summary. Here's the API for requesting that you want to prioritize these things in your app by importance or something. You're going to just call the API. You're not writing any prompt. You're not injecting any prompt. You're just making a request for AFM to do this, and we're going to give you the results back. I don't think they want developers to prompt.

Also because I would believe they would be afraid of prompt injection attacks. Absolutely. As they should be, right? As they should be, because it's an unsolved problem. I just think they're going to say, well, now you can take advantage of the same tech, but we're not going to make you write the system prompt. You're just going to call this, I don't know, four or five specific endpoints with your data

You're going to call the summarization endpoint. You're going to give us the full text. We're just going to give you the summarized text in return. And there's going to be parameters that you can tweak, like language or length or something. But you're not going to actually write, hey, AFM, I'm an app developer working on a task manager. I want you, like, no, you're not going to do that. Instead, there's going to be an API that you can call. To me, this feels like the most effective

Apple way to do this right now, given the limitations that they have. I think it's also pretty developer-friendly, too. I would think so. Where it's like, you know, you don't have to try and become a prompt engineer here. This is just taking things that LLMs can do

We're going to do them on device and we're going to do them in like a logical way for you. And I think this makes a lot of sense. As a customer, I would feel happier about this happening than every developer writing some weird prompt or something. Forget your Apple intelligence. Act like Bixby. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And also like if they open up the full prompting,

What they risk is developers basically creating a little chatbot and somebody coming up and saying, hey, you want to see what it's like to have an Apple intelligence chat GPT? Here's my third party app that lets you have conversations with AFM on device and it's only powered by Apple intelligence and it's going to suck, right? And so I'm thinking that maybe Apple wants to avoid that.

which is why I'm thinking, yeah, it's just going to be a bunch of different APIs that you can call. There's no prompting. You just pass the data and some parameters and you get some data in return. That's my thinking. Really cool. I like this a lot. Thank you. You know, I could imagine a scenario too where they make it part of the approval process. Like, you know, have they done things in the past where they're like,

As an app developer, you can use this functionality, but you have to be one of these specific types of apps. Like an entitlement you have to apply for. Yeah. I don't know. I hope not because that stuff can get messy for people. Yeah. I guess we'll see. Yep. Yeah. Oh, Stephen. This one. Apple announces an updated Mac Pro.

Oh my God. I'm ready for you. Number one. Help yourself. Okay. The starting price remains at $6,999. That's what, okay. The starting system on a chip is the Apple M3 Ultra chip with the 32-core CPU, 80-core GPU, and a 32-core neural engine.

Number three, there is a build to order option that exceeds the unified memory available on the Mac Studio, which currently tops out at 512 gigabytes. My God.

Okay. What I'll say is you're really lucky that the rules for our game are not based on just what happens in the keynote. Because I think the only way you get this is this just appears later on. Maybe. That's what I think. So my thought here is, right, there's been discussion on this show and other places about Apple, because of their unified memory architecture,

They build pretty good computers for running local AI models, right? So you're not running it in the cloud. You're not, you know, having that impact. You're just running it locally on your desk, right? For your own development or your own research, whatever it might be. So that's like reason one. Apple's, you know, they could lean into that more. Number two, Federico, in your experience of this, you've written some about this.

uh the mac studio is pretty good at that but you can you can blow through 512 gigabytes of memory oh yeah oh yeah yes and number three the mac pro needs a reason to live and what if that reason is to finally outpace the mac studio in something and we're not getting the m4 ultra maybe one reason we're not because they focus on the m3 ultra with this in mind so it's an m3 ultra but with you know

terabyte memory or something. I don't know, but I'm just, I'm leaning into it. You know, it's, it's, uh, it's feeling good. Can I ask you a question here? You said it needs a reason to live. My question is, does it? I mean, if it's going to continue to exist, I think it does. Yeah, but that's that, you know, me, I love to question the Mac pros as a, as a product. I just, why, what about the Mac pro though? Like,

that they can do all of this stuff? Why can't they just do all of this stuff in a Mac studio? Two reasons. One, the Mac Pro is more money, and so they like the additional margin there. And so if this is going to be a really expensive computer, why not start with a more expensive price point? But secondly, you will notice I just typed in a phrase in the document. Years ago, five years ago,

I want a point because I guessed that the initial Apple Silicon rollout would include a desktop because I had a dream about an Apple Silicon Mac mini.

Remember this? Tim Cook was on stage. Well, he called it a bad little something. He did. Bad little B. I've had a dream about the Mac Pro. You had a dream? Oh, no. Oh, my God. I didn't put this in the document until just now because I wanted to. I'm not saying I'm a prophet. No, you're not. But I had a dream that the Mac Pro came out and...

Someone noticed that the option for the wheels was less expensive than it had been previously.

And I was able to break the story that they were less expensive because the new wheels were smaller because I could measure what Apple had on the website for the specs versus the original set because I have a set of Mac Pro wheels here in my office. That was your dream. That was my dream. That's the dream. The size of the wheel. That was your big break, huh? I made it back on R slash Apple with Mac Pro wheel measurements.

Wow. Hey, look, if anyone's going to do it, it might as well be 512px, you know? No, no, no. You need to rephrase that. The only website that would do that is 512px. They'll all do it after me, but not link to me. That's also true.

So to be fair, I could see this prediction coming true, specifically if Apple wants to position the Mac Pro as a local AI development computer. Having tested the Mac Studio and now understanding what the high-end limits of the Mac Studio can be, I could totally see a Mac Pro that has an M3 Extreme or

or an M3 how would they so basically what I'm thinking is two M3 Ultra chips together so call it I don't know M3 M3 Tandem Ultra or something um

where it's two M3 Ultras, and you unlock one terabyte of RAM, that thing will require a lot of cooling. Because I can tell you, when you try and run the local 4-bit version of DeepSeek, you can hear the... It gets toasty, and you can hear the Mac Studio. I bet you do. It's like...

Does the Mac Pro have significantly more cooling than the Mac Studio? I'm assuming it does, but I don't know the answer to that. It does? They kept, for all the ridiculousness that is that case, because you can't put anything in it, one thing they did keep is the enormous heat sink that goes on top of the, it was on top of the Xeon, right, like in my old machine, but it's on top of the system on a chip.

And those top fans blow away through that giant heat sink. And it's a lot more cooling area than the studio could ever do. And obviously, there's a lot of space in the case for air. Yeah. Which I'm sure helps, too. Not video cards, but definitely air. Yeah. And so I could see them say, here's a computer.

for the highest possible end of local AI development. And basically the pitch would be pretty simple at that point. They could just say, this computer lets you run 8-bit versions of large language models, which is basically impossible to do now on a MacBook Pro or even on the Mac Studio that I have on loan from Apple. Can you do that on any consumer computer? I don't know.

the fine consumer. Like, something that you as a person can buy the parts to build.

I don't think I can run that with CUDA on my 5090 if I wanted to. So the answer is no, then, realistically, right? I could put together a little homemade server farm with a bunch of 5090s, but at that point, is that a consumer-level computer? Absolutely it's not, no. You've gone past what seems to be logical expectations.

at that perspective yeah they could say that and and sell it to a bunch of people i guess so here's my question for you steven why would they have waited until now for like why would they not have just done this when they had the max studio do you think that's a good question parts availability importance yeah but i don't know can't you just announce it at the same you know what i mean it's like but yeah sure those are reasons those are reasons

The big brain thinking here, and now we're well beyond what Stephen said. Yeah, we're just like in it now. Stephen's pick just got 25 conditions long. We're the...

We're the only Apple podcast that talks about the Mac Pro. That's true. Someone's got to do it, so it might as well be us. Might as well be us. Well, someone's got to do it with this kind of flavor, you know? Yeah, that's true. This kind of gusto, so to speak. The big brain thinking would be, and stay with me for a second. So they released this crazy powerful computer at WWDC to developers.

They have a teaser. And I know, I know, I know, Apple was burned by teasers before, but stay with me. They're going to announce, Gurman mentioned, there's going to be, there are multiple versions.

bigger versions of AFM in development, like a 3 billion, a 7 billion, a 22 billion, a hundred and... What did he mention? Like a 170 billion something parameter? It's just all nothing at that point, right? But what if they said this computer...

If you're a developer and you really want to test Apple intelligence, you will be able to download the big boy version of AFM on this computer and run it locally. I don't think they can tease anything, right? If it's not available, they can't talk about it. Or they shouldn't, at least.

It's going to be really interesting, right? Well, I have a flexi about that. So we'll see. We'll see. Because like, you know, Federico, you're going, you're going to be, I'm sure, in briefings and stuff, right? Yeah. I'm sure you're going to be like everybody else is going to be. Be like, all right, show me that. You know, it's like, oh, that thing you said, show me.

I don't believe you. Show me. Like everyone's going to be, that's the energy that every journalist is going to have. And it's going to be very interesting to see how that unfolds. Yeah. Well, do we want to recap the... Yeah, yeah. Do a recap. Give us a recap. Mike said, Apple has a new app for gamers. It's called Apple Games. It creates new specific developer terms for games. And it features a partnership with Microsoft for Xbox Game Pass.

Federico said Apple opens up AFM, Apple Foundation Model, to developers. It's a three billion parameter version that runs on device. It's designed in a way that only specific endpoints can be used with a native API, like summarization or writing or prioritizing content. And number three, Apple shows off examples how they're using the same tech in its own system apps. Then I wrote, Apple announces an updated Mac Pro.

The starting price remains at $6,999. The starting system on a chip is the M3 Ultra chip with a 32-core CPU, 80-core GPU, and 32-core neural engine. There is a build-to-order option that exceeds the unified memory available on the Mac Studio, which currently tops out at 512 gigabytes. Great picks, guys. Yeah, thank you.

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Our thanks to ZocDoc for their support of the show and all of Relay. The Flexies is a game held after each edition of the Rikis. It consists of a series of additional picks in relation to the upcoming Apple event or year. Scoring is completed separately from the main game, but like the Rikis, the order of picks is set by the results of the previous game and ties will be broken by using dice by Peacock. Please lie down as the rules are read.

Host must make a minimum of five Flexi picks. Each correct pick is awarded with one point. Wrong picks do not remove any points, and no partial points may be awarded. The winner is determined by comparing the percentage of correct Flexis made by each host. The winner can use their chosen title as long as they are the winner. Federico shall be known as Prince Flexi and is known as King Flexi when having won both keynote and annual games.

Mike has chosen Duke of Flexington and uses the name Archduke Flexington when applicable. Steven, that's me, is the Attorney General of Flexi and uses the title Secretary of Deflex when necessary. Loser of the Flexis must compensate the winner of the Flexis by donating to a charity of the winner's choice. The amount of the donation is $25 per wrong Flexi made by the loser. The money must be donated on air.

Federico is the current winner of the keynote flexes. And if anyone holds all four titles that we offer, they are allowed to choose their own nickname. You may be seated. Okay. I have a correction. Uh-oh. I actually won the last flexes. Federico was second. I thought that was wrong when I read it. So my apologies. Wow. So I get to go first. I have made eight flexes so far.

So far, at least one new OS is referred to by its old marketing name and developer documentation or tools. So it's iOS 26, but Xcode thinks it's iOS 19. That sucks so bad. And yet it will happen. You know, XROS is still all over the place. Really? Yeah. That's rough. Mm-hmm.

Number two, there is no Mac OS developer beta by the time of recording. Why? Maybe the redesign took a little bit longer. Okay. Image Playgrounds is updated. You're so upset and he took it so easily. Why? Oh, okay. Okay, yeah, it's fine. I think it was good. Makes sense. Image Playgrounds is updated to be not quite as terrible.

Okay, we'll have to judge that. Yeah. At least one Apple intelligence feature is announced for WatchOS. VisionOS gets a dark mode. It's wild that it doesn't have one. I know. Yeah, it's strange. Yeah. The Notes app, it will like hurt your eyes. It's blinding. It's so bad. iOS gets new home screen customization options. Like what?

Not picked. Just wondering. Yeah. I think what y'all talked about an upgrade is like icon shapes is particularly interesting. So you think the user will might get to make some choices there maybe? Maybe. Also the other thing I thought about was maybe tinting comes to light mode. Right now you can only tint when your icons are in dark mode. Do you think that they may fix tinting? Where it's not terrible?

maybe that's what i mean like i wonder if you know what i wonder if like it's one of those things when we see the new os it's like oh that's why they added that maybe you know like it's one of those things that makes way more sense when you see it in the new place rather than the old place maybe the tinting's pretty bad in my opinion yeah i don't like it uh number seven seven automator remains

Wow. Shortcuts is the future of automation on the Mac. Well, not quite yet. Number eight, Alan Dye is in the presentation to talk about the redesign. That's a good one. That's a good one. Yeah. Okay. I have six for now. Number one, Apple teases bigger versions of AFM on the horizon. Okay. This is what you spoke about a minute ago, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Number two, Apple hints that a new quote-unquote glass-like material for its UI design is true to the nature of the hardware itself.

I'm just trying to think like Apple saying, oh, and we chose this material to, you know, basically, you know, to be true to the nature of the screens or something. If anyone says that, Alan Dye says that, I guess. Yeah, yeah. That's what we're saying. That boy's on LinkedIn. Look at this. I just Googled him because I was like, did I spell his name right? Yeah, he's on LinkedIn. Lots of Apple people are on LinkedIn. I'm going to follow him. Send him a connection request. Connection request. Send without a note. Oh, yeah. There you go. Done.

He's like, oh, my favorite blogger. How did he know about Intel Macs? Keep it a secret. Okay, number three. This is never going to come true, but I'm going to say it regardless. Number three, split-screen multitasking comes to the iPhone 2. This is potentially like a year too early, but whatever. Yeah. I had a thought about this when I saw this Flexi.

I think next WBC, there will be signs that this is coming, but they hold the actual announcement for the foldable. Yeah. You could do top-bottom split screen. Yeah? Yeah, you could do that. That's what I'm thinking. You could do that. But we'll see. Number four. More than enough space on the Macs to do that. Oh, yeah. Really, there is. Really very much so. Yeah.

Number four, Zwift Assist is mentioned and promised again. Oh, my God. Oh, man. This is like a Google I.O. announcement, basically. We're going to show it off again and promise again that it's coming. Or maybe they just treat it like it's new. Yeah. Could be. Hey, look at this thing we've been working on.

It's real cool, guys. We're still working on it. It's almost ready. Yeah. It was WWDC. It's like, when did they know? Yeah. June 2024. There it is. Yeah. It was. OTJ saw it in person and then it never shipped. Maybe he saw a QuickTime video of it. You know? Maybe. That's true. Number five. The chat GPT integration with Siri now has access to reasoning models.

So I'm thinking like if you have a ChaiGPT account and you log in, you will be able to use, I don't know, O3 or something for like longer requests. And Siri is going to show you the ChaiGPT stinking. That was my thought. Number six, a disclaimer is added to some features in the keynote video, I guess I should add in the video.

whether it's real footage or simulated. So I

I think Apple is going to have to do what game developers have been doing for a long time. There's going to be a little disclaimer at the bottom saying real footage or simulated footage. Because I really do think they cannot do an event with just the stuff that is launching in September. I think they're going to have to show off a bit of a roadmap. But in doing so, they will have to...

to take a hint from what the game industry is doing and say in simulated footage, final feature may be different. Here's what I think is the problem here. I think that all of their footage is simulated footage. Well, you know what I mean. They could say captured on device or basically some kind of phrasing that says, oh, this is real or oh, this is a simulation. This is like a... Isn't everything a simulation?

You know, like where they're not representative of final blah, blah, blah, right? Closed driver professional course. Yeah. We've never seen this kind of disclaimer from Apple in keynote videos before. I think we're going to see it now. Okay. Mike? That's all of them? Because Federico, you said for now. You're not adding any more yet? Not yet. All right. Here are mine. I have seven so far.

Vision OS gets support for VR game controllers. I'm going to move one of mine up because it's like a second pick, which is like a similar thing. Apple announces a partnership with Sony specifically for VR controllers as well. So they have an API or whatever. You can use them. But then they also say, and we're partnering with Sony to bring the PlayStation VR 2 controllers.

Apple introduces the new OS design with an animated video that shows the old look morphing into the new look. Yeah, I like that. Right, so like if things are stretching and expanding and like going from, like they're going from solid to clear or whatever it's going to be, you know? Yeah, oh, I love it. I'm there for the animation. Animated Genmoji. Hmm. So just so I understand, we're texting about...

The state of the Vision OS app store. And OTJ makes a little jimoji of a trash can on fire that could be like smoke coming out of the trash can. Yeah. Okay. Just a hypothetical example.

Number five, image playgrounds can make terrible videos. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Now look, here's my thinking, right? They ship the bad images. Why would they not ship bad videos? It's just everyone just goes to make the Will Smith spaghetti video and it does it. Yeah. Like it did. And it's just terrible. Like, why would they not do it? Like they did the first thing. Why would they not do a second equally bad thing?

I am still happy that Apple is not trying to make photorealistic images. I don't think they can. I don't think their model can, to be really clear. Stephen, if they could, they would. I hope not. That's really where I struggle is like, these things should not be making photorealistic images. That worries me. In version one of their tool, they let you pick anybody in your life and make images of them. I found out recently you could do it with a baby. They let you pick a baby. They let you pick an infant.

Your baby or just like a random baby you found? My baby. That's good. Yeah. It's bad. It's terrible. Oh, it's really bad. Um...

Pick number six. Apple partners with Anthropic for Xcode. So this is the Swift Assist thing. So they show it off again and they're like, LOL, JK, we got a real model. And it's Anthropic. It's Claude now. Forget everything you know. And seven, people start to claim online that they have found evidence of a folding phone. Oh, like in the code or something.

Or whatever. So here's my pick, right? This is why it's a flexi.

I think people might just start saying it like, you know, like how they're like, oh, that means you're going to have multitasking, right? With the iPad. It's just like, not even necessarily you found code. I just, I expect I will be able to come to the episode with proof that people are saying a folding phone is coming based on something. This is a very weird pick. Many people are saying. Many people are saying they weren't still talking about it. Yeah.

Why is everyone talking about this? Why are they talking about it? Because it's not true. I like that. That's a fun flexi. Yeah. I have two more that I want to add, bringing my total to eight. Number seven, shortcuts gets new Apple intelligence actions. Is this like building off your pick of...

They make API endpoints for AFM and Shortcuts gets those too? Yeah. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Okay. And number eight, Apple announces a third-party assistant API for some markets. Wink, EU, wink, wink. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Pick eight. Oh, gosh. I don't have it. I don't even know what I'm about to say. I have no idea the words that are coming out of my mouth. All right? Okay. Okay. Brainstorm. All right. During the opening, Tim Cook uses the words love and developers in the same sentence. Okay. But what if he says, we love that you're all here.

We love that our developers are here. No, because you've got to account for punctuation, you know? Yeah, well, punctuation is still within a sentence, right? There's one sentence that uses the word love and developers. We used to love developers. Exactly. That's fun. We all have eight. Yeah. So I had to throw one random one in there because you both had eight. I can't not have that. Yeah. Yeah.

My automator remains one came to me in the shower the other morning. Like, yeah, I use automator all the time. I hope it doesn't go away. Is that it? Eventually it will. Eventually it will. I'm not sure that I'm not sure that is now. It's not. I'm furiously looking through documents and papers to see if I have a ninth, but I don't think I do. You just have a bunch of papers and documents on your desk. Yeah, you know me. There's stuff everywhere. Yeah. Could I suggest a notebook brand to you?

Where do you think their papers are? You know what I mean? Well, I think that does it for this week. Thank you for joining us for the Rickies. We are very excited to score these next week. Federico will be at WWDC. Mike and I are not traveling this year. So we're not

quite sure when we'll be recording, but we'll let the Discord know as soon as we do. There will be an episode next week. That is for sure, obviously. It might just not be on Wednesday. Yeah. We'll see. Who knows. But thank you all for joining us. Go check out the Scorecard websites. And thank you to our sponsors, Squarespace, NetSuite, and ZocDoc for making the episode possible. If you want to hear more from us next week, we're going to be busy all over the place.

Federico and his team will be hard at work at MacStories.net across their podcast. Lots of great stuff. So be sure to check out MacStories. Federico, are you doing daily episodes of App Stories? No, no, not this year. Aww.

okay sorry i liked them but i'm glad for you that you're not doing it yeah i think it's fantastic except the fact that i always like just appearing on one every year i'm just like i'm here now for some one reason or another either john loses all the audio files which happened twice uh or i just show up in discord but hey you never know maybe i'll still appear maybe maybe we'll see yeah

uh mike hosts a bunch of shows here on relay of course y'all be judging the upgrade draft next week uh that's an excellent episode go go listen if you haven't and you can check out mike's work at cortex brand you know take your wwdc notes and a nice looking notebook you can absolutely come you can find my writing at five health pixels.net and next week mac power users will be out midweek we're going to do like a covering the news kind of uh

Kind of show next week. It sucks that that's episode 801. It is. Yeah, 800 is this Sunday as a feedback episode. So frustrating. Yeah. 800 is nothing to sneeze at, you know?

No, I know, but wouldn't it be nicer if these things lined up? Didn't we have that once where we had a really important episode line up with a number? This one, 555. No, 555 is not important. Didn't we have a round number on a live show all line up together or something? I don't remember. No one can know. No one can know.

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