iPhone 17 Pro Leak, 15 Years of iPad, Shopify Requiring Staff to Use AI, How Tariffs Will Affect Apple Pricing
01:06:24 Share

that will be 1.5 million dollars please i'll take cash check or transfer welcome to primary technology the show about the tech news that matters we might have an iphone 17 case revealing the new body style and the instagram app might finally be coming to ipad a bunch of ai news where the shopify ceo doesn't want to hire if ai can do the job plus news on tariffs how that's affecting tech products and we're going to choose our most nostalgic microsoft products because they celebrated their 50th birthday recently

This episode is brought to you by you, the members who support us directly. I'm one of your hosts, Stephen Robles, wearing a little shirt here in case you recognize it if you're watching on YouTube. And I'm joined by Jason Atene.

How's it going, Jason? Good. Is that your Matrix t-shirt? No, it is not, Jason. This is the macro data refinement. The micro refinement. Anyway. There's numbers on his shirt. That's all you need to know. There's numbers on my shirt. If you watch Severance, you get it. It's from, you know, Basic App Guy. He's got the shirt. He's a friend of the show. Do you know the quote? Do you know the quote from the beginning of this episode? Oh.

That will be $1.5 million, please. I'll take it in cash, check, or transfer. I'm not greedy. I just want my half. This is a tough one. I'll try to do something that might be related to like... That's an old movie. An old movie. 1988. Rain Man. Oh my goodness. You said 1988. That gave it away. That gave it away? Well, it's that old. I wasn't thinking it was that old. It's like...

It's like just the release. Charlie Baker, right? That Charlie Babbitt, apparently Babbitt Babbitt. Yeah, but that's pretty good. Yeah. 1988 gave you Rain Man. That's pretty impressive. Okay. I'm, I'm a savant, man. Listen, I'm a movie. I'm a movie Rain Man. Listen, gotta have eight fish sticks. Can't have four fish sticks. You know what I mean? Got it. That's yeah. You got to see the movie. Anyway.

We do a five-star rating and review shout-outs on this show, and Jason and I, we had a pre-episode discussion, and I thought about moving it later in the show, because if you're a brand-new listener, you might be wondering, who are all these people?

that they're talking about. But I decided, we decided, no, we want to keep it on the top of the show because these are the people who love the show, gave us a five-star rating. And so we have chapters both on YouTube and listening. And if you want to jump to like the first topic being Apple, you can use the chapters, but we want to give shout outs to everyone who left us a five-star rating and review. And there's a ton all around the world. Tech guy, UK78, battery percentage on. He said, there's no debate.

Which I disagree. I think there's a debate, but that's okay. Cotterd Crank from the UK, battery percentage off, said Apple Pencil fell off and disappeared, but used to point to the left. I mean, if he'd have put it the other way, it'd be fine. He probably still don't know where it is. No, no, no. Limpio Muebles from USA, Carmela's Jewelry from the USA, a lady tech enthusiast, which is super fun to hear from. She says, I love their banter and always learn something new. Thank you for that.

JB 5150 from the USA, their tech favorite or the best tech podcast. According to them, he taught from the USA. They said, I won't even knock off a star for unbiased reporting of relevant political news. Just throwing it out there as a subtweet for everybody else. Andrew from Australia, RSG 526 from the USA in man 33 X from the USA. Let's all keep the battery percentage off. I agree. And pretend we wear vision pro every day. Jason, you still wear vision pro every morning. Uh,

I've slipped a little bit, but almost. I mean, I still use it most days. I'm not using it on the weekends anymore. Not on the weekends. Mostly because I'm trying to do less work on the weekends. Yeah, fair enough. Because it's a work device for you. It's where you do your research. It is. I don't do things like watch...

menial television shows and stuff yeah okay okay i still wear it at least once or twice a month but i did wear when i was traveling last week to podcast movement and we're going to talk about that in a second and one old tech shout out this is from christopher erickson over in leave sweden forgive me he taught me how to say diddy huera from ikea but he found some old apple tech in his attic and

These pictures look like it might be from a horror movie. I don't know. It does seem terrifying. There's a super old phone, some sauce, but that's a, what, what Mac is that? The G3, the little, that is the iMac. Yeah, no, that's the G4 iMac. G4 iMac. The G4 iMac. He's got that in his attic. Also has even older. The layer of dust on this one is impressive.

Wow, I can't even see what that is. I don't even know what that is. I can't even see it. But the back says it's the Apple display, CRT display. And then look at this. The Macintosh Performa 6300. Performa 6300. Got that in his attic.

Man, you should try to plug those in Christopher and see if they still work. You should blow out all of that insulation first though. Like that picture is, that thing is, there's a lot of stuff in there that could catch fire. If you light that up right now, I'm just telling you. That's right. You clear it out first. We'll put that, I'll put that picture in the chapter or two because that's pretty cool. But thank you for that. Share with us your old tech. If you want, you can do that in our community, social.primarytech.fm or email us. Also have an announcement. This is a little housekeeping announcement.

I mean, Jason, he's acting surprised. He already knows. I was at podcast movement and I heard from multiple people that listeners of shows, they, you know, may, it might be listening in their car. They might not be able to click the links of the articles that we're talking about. And so some people like to receive the show notes by email. So I set up a newsletter, I set up an email. And so this is going to be a top link in the show notes. If you want to sign up with your email, you're going to get exactly one email a week and it's

And it's just the show notes, but in your email. And so if you want the show notes in your email, so you can click the links or refer to the articles that we talked about. And then we showed here on YouTube, you could sign up and it's just automated. It's just takes the RSS feed episode notes and it sends it to you. And there you go. You can do that. Does it include the links to actually listen to it? Like what if I just wanted to use the email link?

to tell me when the show has published, will it have a link to open it in Pocket Cast or Spotify or wherever? Yes, it has a link where if you tap the title, it'll take you, I believe, to primarytech.fm, and then you can click your podcast player. But I'll put a couple other links to the things there too. Good stuff. Yeah, and I'm not automatically moving anybody over. So if you're in our community and you want the newsletter, please sign up separately because I don't want to move people over. You know what I mean? That feels a little...

Shady. Shady. Aggressive. Yeah, it feels a little aggressive. All right, let's start out with some quick Apple news. First of all, I wanted to share this story, which was a video that Apple posted on their YouTube channel, but it was a survivor who used the emergency SOS on Apple Watch. Did you see this video? I'm watching it right now.

Okay. No, I did not see it beforehand. Okay, great. But it's from Apple Australia. Apple Australia. And so this was a swimmer off the coast of Australia who apparently was pulled out to sea, couldn't even see land anymore and used the emergency SOS on his Apple watch ultra to call emergency services. And, uh, he was rescued out there. It seems like without Apple watch, you would not have survived this. And so, uh,

Apple tell stories like this periodically, especially like during their big events like Dub Dub. Pretty amazing. SOS from the Apple Watch. I have to get my cellular back up on my Apple Watch because AT&T like screwed up my plans, which that would be the story where Apple Watch Ultra may save you, but AT&T is going to screw you over. I'm not sure. But yeah, pretty wild to hear about some of those survival stories.

That's Apple Watch Ultra. And then I want to talk briefly about Apple TV Plus and Apple Vision Pro, which I heard you started watching the studio. I did. It's a great show. And I don't know if you saw this quote from Seth Rogen, but he did an interview with Variety. Seth Rogen, he's starring in the studio. I think he's also like executive producer of it. But the premise is like it's a

What is it? A parody? It's a Hollywood satire. It's a Hollywood satire about like a movie exec. Yeah, but he's a movie executive. He's running an industry. He's dealing with the, I guess the existential question of like, do you make money? Do you make movies that make money or do you make movies that win awards and can you do both? And right. So hilarious show if you haven't seen it, but this quote, apparently when Seth Rogen was pitching this to Apple, uh,

It was clear that he was going to need a lot of cameos, which if you don't know, Martin Scorsese's in the first episode, Charlize Theron, uh, director, gladiator director. What's his name? Ron Howard.

Wait, no, that was Ridley Scott. But anyway, Ron Howard is in episode three. And so there's like a ton of cameos. And Apple was like, you'll never be able to get all the cameos you need to make that show. Apparently they told Seth Rogen that. And Seth Rogen said, oh, we need to prove these MFers wrong. So I thought that was hilarious. And it's a good show. So you should watch that. But while I was traveling last week, I watched a bunch of Apple TV+. I watched Shrinking, which you have mentioned.

And I did watch a lot of it in my Apple Vision Pro because I was in a hotel room. And I just have to say, and if Zach Kahn is listening from Apple or anyone on the Apple Vision Pro team, there's one flaw to the Apple Vision Pro that I don't know how to get around. And that's if you're watching The Shrinking Show and you start crying, the Apple Vision Pro is just all wet. And I don't know what to do about that. Have you ever had that problem? You don't cry probably. Not in my Vision Pro. No.

I do not. Okay. I don't know what to do about that, but it gets wet. Well, actually, that's not true because I have really bad spring allergies. And the other day I was using it and I realized I just couldn't see anything. And I'm like pulling the lenses out, trying to like clean them off and stuff. And I realized, nope, just my eyes. My eyes are just full of allergies right now. Just full of allergies. I did have that experience, but yeah. Yeah. So that's the only thing about Vision Pro. But I enjoyed watching that in the studio in there. And of course, the Severance finale. I've watched it.

Little clips of it again, but anyway. All right, I'll stop talking about Severance. No, that's good. Yeah, we still have to debate the finale sometime. Maybe by the time season three comes out.

Two other quick Apple things. A supposed case for the iPhone 17 Pro has leaked. This is from leaker Sonny Dixon. I'm going to put this link to the Mac Rumors article. It looks like a clear case for the new iPhone 17 Pro with the big camera cutout that you might have been seeing around the Internet, where it just looks like a huge bar. Apparently, that's the case's case.

I know just another piece of information that points to that might be what it looks like. And I still don't know how I feel about it, Jason. Yeah. I mean, don't know. Yeah. There's a lot of, there's a lot of feelings there, but I do have a question. Why? I, we talked about this a little bit. I think we're probably gonna talk about this every year, but why do you think anyone cares about the camera bump? Just in general about whether the new iPhone is going to look like, won't we know?

Like in September, we'll know if it looks different. Why? Like, I just, I wonder why, like why anyone cares. I mean, it's just the intrigue. People like just interesting knowing. I mean, there will be no one left to buy iPhone 17 because apparently they're buying all of the iPhone 16s in the world right now. I got like, no kidding. I posted this, but on Monday, I think it was, or maybe it was Tuesday. I got no less than six people texting me and they're like, which iPhone should I buy today?

Really? Yes. Real people doing it. Just one day. Hey, somebody would text me about some other random thing and they're like, while I have you, if hypothetically I was buying an iPhone today, what should I buy? I'm like, why are you buying it today? Well, it's going to be $1,200 tomorrow and then $2,500 a day after that.

So yeah, people are buying them. That's interesting. One, there was, I think it wasn't there a spike in Apple stock because of the, that everybody's like rushing to the stores. Well, no, there was a spike yesterday in a lot of stocks because most of the reciprocal tariffs were paused. Right. We're going to get to it. We have a whole, we have a whole tariff section. You asked the question. I know. You're right. You're right. But yeah, tariffs come later. But so iPhone 17, I don't know. We'll see. If the camera's way better, I mean, we'll see. Anyway,

Instagram app finally might be coming to iPad, by the way. And this is reported by the information, which shows you absolutely 0% of their article just shows you the headline. So there you go. But I wanted to mention here, did you know, Jason, the iPad is 15 years old? Do you mean Instagram is 15 years old? No, the iPad. Oh, the iPad. Well, also Instagram, right? They're both 15. Oh, is it?

Oh, okay. That makes sense. Because the Instagram launched in 2010. But yeah, that is kind of crazy. The iPad was announced by Jobs in January 2010, went on sale April 2010. So right just this month, it turned 15 years old, which is... So it's kind of crazy because these two things were meant to be together. Literally. They were connected at birth. Yeah.

Ish. Definitely ish. And they never have coexisted together. But here's actually why this is interesting that Instagram is actually working on it. Because this is what happens when you have just even the littlest amount of competitive pressure.

If you have just watched Instagram over the last 18 months with threads and with all of the video stuff and with the following feeds and all of those different things, it is what happens when you have TikTok or you have whatever. Like you have some kind of competitive pressure. Yeah. I also...

My Instagram account is messed up. That's another story. That's an evergreen statement right there. Well, it's messed up for a variety of reasons, but I got supposedly early access to the edits app.

which is Instagram's like it's going to be like CapCut. Yeah, it's doing its best to compete. I want to ask you about the iPad being 15 years old. Did you get an original iPad that that launch year? Do you remember? Well, I don't remember when the first iPad that I got was. I think it was probably the garbage one, which I think wasn't the three. And then I think I quickly got an iPad for so I don't remember. Gosh, can I even find out? Hmm.

I still have my iPad 2. It can still turn on if I charge it. And it went through every one of my kids throughout all the years. That's why I sold my iPad 2. I had an original iPad, the cellular version actually, but I think I sold it because I don't have it anymore. When it came out, I was working at a job where I was doing music stuff.

And I so wanted it for digital sheet music. And that was my original use case for the iPad and the four score app, which was one of the earliest apps that you can get on iPad. It was an incredible app. I still use it today. My wife uses it when she's practicing flute. It was amazing. But yeah, I remember, I think I'm pretty sure I had it that year, not at launch, but later that year. And then I think I had pretty much every model after that. The iPad three, like you said, it was the first one with a retina screen and

but it was like underpowered to support the retina screen. So it would get hot and it was slow and it still had the 30 pin connector. And then the iPad four again, retina screen, but they updated the processor and gave it a lightning connector. And that was really the better one to get rather than the three. Yeah. So I just found my receipt for my iPad with wifi plus cellular for Verizon 32 gigs, black third generation. Um,

Third generation, yeah. Which I don't know for sure that I never... Like, that I didn't have one before that. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know. But that's...

Talking about a wave of nostalgia, I literally just went into my mail app because that is still the best one for searching for things, which is surprising if it's iCloud. But I typed in apple.com and just scrolled back as far as I could go. And wow, just so many old like Apple store shipment notifications for old, like all this stuff. And I'm just like, yeah, so I'm going to be busy for the next, just carry on without me for a minute if you don't mind. Do you remember, do you remember your very first Apple product?

Yeah, well, I mean, it was a MacBook Pro. Do you remember the year? Yeah, it was the titanium MacBook Pro. It was an 800 megahertz with a super drive. Wait, a MacBook Pro or a PowerBook? PowerBook, sorry. Oh, it was a PowerBook, okay. It was not a MacBook Pro. It was a PowerBook, yeah. The TI book, yeah. And it was like 2002 or 2003, maybe? No, that was like...

That would have been a little bit earlier than that. Earlier. Because I think 2003 they came out with the... The G4, right? Yeah. Well, it was a G4. Oh. Hold on. Yeah, TI book release date. I thought it was more like 2001. Okay, it might be. I remember my first Apple product was an iPod video, which I got in 2005. And then later that year I got my first Mac, which was the G4 12-inch PowerBook.

And so I know G4 2005, I know that coincides. Yeah. The titanium power book was introduced in January of 2001. Okay. And I don't know if I bought, I don't know if those ones had the super drive or not, but I, when I got one, it was with the super drive. Gotcha. So it was probably 2001 or 2002. And I believe I got an iPod right around that time. Yeah. I don't remember exactly.

That would have been like the first, the first live of 2001. That was a launch. I'm going to find this somewhere out there is my titanium power book G4. I'm going to find it. I can't even talk about it because I sold my G4 12 inch power book and I still, I regret it to this day, Jason.

To this day. All right, that's enough nostalgia. We'll get nostalgic about Microsoft in a little bit. But let's talk about some AI news. The one I find fascinating is this Shopify CEO, Tobias Lutke. He actually had an internal memo leak that he sent to the Shopify staff, basically saying, don't hire unless if AI can't do the job.

basically. And so they had several stipulations in this internal memo. And I'm curious your thoughts on it. But this also feels like in the age of AI, this is what more and more leaders and companies are probably going to do. And so the four main points are

He says AI proficiency is now mandatory when working at Shopify, that using AI effectively is no longer optional. It is a baseline expectation for all employees, regardless of role. This marks a significant cultural shift. So everyone has to be proficient at using AI, which I'm curious how they measure that too. Like, can you type in the chat GPT box or do you actually, I guess, can you actually integrate it into your workflow?

which again, like, I don't know how you gauge that or if it's like a good integration, but anyway, I just don't know what that means. Cause like, I think about all the things I use AI for and it's usually like,

Tell me about this thing that just happened. Or I can't figure out how to loosen this bolt on my sink. Whatever. That's a bad example. Summarize. You know what I mean? Just summarize. Some kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. When I looked... And I definitely use it for work, but I also don't work at Shopify. And I guess maybe there's a lot of code completion type stuff, but it is a weird... You have to be proficient in AI. Okay. Again, what does that mean? Do I have to be capable of creating...

an AI tool or do I just have to know how to type things into chat GPT? You need to build and train a model on your laptop or you're fired. I'm on it. So that's one, two non-use of AI requires justification. So employees must demonstrate why AI cannot be used before requesting additional resources like staff or time. That's pretty heavy. Yeah. Again, what does that mean? Is that like, I wanted to hire an engineer, uh,

And I can't just use whatever Gemini to do that or something like that's what I don't understand. I guess I mean if someone on a team wanted to hire like you're saying a developer I guess they have to prove that ChatGPT can't do it which seems like it'd be really tough because ChatGPT will give you a bunch of code but you actually have to like spend a lot of time to make sure it actually works and maybe even fix the bugs anyway.

AI and product development. AI must be integrated into the early stages of all projects, basically. And then fourth performance accountability. Shopify is adding AI usage to its performance and peer review criteria, making AI adoption part of how employees are evaluated and rewarded. So, I mean, that's going all in like this. This guy obviously believes like AI is the answer to all these things.

I'm curious your feeling it that that that feels a little too much too soon like yeah I can do some things and it can maybe speed up some workflows and you can use it in here and there but that feels like too far too soon right like this well it's hard what it really feels like is what what do you mean.

Like if it's kind of a, all of those, is this just marketing speak? Right. But no, because it's an internal audience. And so it's not just like, it makes sense when you hear companies just randomly throw AI into the middle of sentences when they're talking to investors and stuff, you know, it's like, we just had the best AI quarter we've ever had. Like, right. What does that even mean? Right. But this is not that this is for an internal audience and it, it feels very abstract and,

And I'm not really sure because, again, I'm just thinking about all the tools. And granted, maybe there's just like a lot of AI tools that you and I are not familiar with because we're not. But imagine if your boss said to you, it's mandatory for you to use AI in your job. What does that mean? Like, OK, fine. I have to get transcripts out of like videos. Like, OK, fine. I was going to do that anyway because I don't really want to sit there and listen to it like the whole thing. If I generate my Slack profile picture with ChatGPT, does that count? Yeah.

I mean, but it's like you, I could understand if your boss is like, no, you can't hire someone to listen to your videos and transcribes them to just use an AI tool. But it feels like that's not what this is. This, this is something because you don't have to tell people that like people will take the path of least resistance. We'll do that anyway. Well, and also the one like AI must be integrated into the early stages, even prototype phase of projects. That feels like, I don't know, like,

One of the core competencies of humans versus AI, I would think, is like genuine originality and creativity. Since AI literally has to be trained on things rather than, you know, everything that AI does is based on something else. It's been trained on content. And so to be integrated in the early stages, I'm like, isn't that cool?

I don't know. But also is that just take the brief description of the product feature you want and plug it into chat GPT and say, what should I call this? Like, is that integrating it in the early phase? Because honestly, chat GPT is great at that, right? Sure. Sure. It's great at giving you a list of here's 30 things that,

I can then look at one of them and be like, you know what? That's interesting. Let me iterate on that or something like that. So it is good. It's like what Chad GPT I find is really good at is getting you from blank sheet of paper to something's on the paper that I can do something with. Not like the thing is done. Right. But the worst phase for anyone creative is blank sheet of paper. Like you can imagine like, okay, I need to do some videos.

Let me generate some ideas based on whatever. Right. That's useful. But again, you don't have to tell people to do that. We will do the thing that makes my job easier automatically. No questions asked. Right. I do think, you know, it's funny because there are many other industries and jobs where there's great resistance to it. I think where...

I was in an environment like an educational type environment and the use of AI by students was being policed. Like students were not allowed to use Chachapiti to do some of their assignments or write papers, which I understand if the assignment is to write a paper and you ask Chachapiti to write it like you didn't do the assignment. But I think to resist the AI tools, especially in an educational environment,

I think you're doing a disservice to those students because they're going to be entering a world like this Shopify CEO, but even other companies where you will be at a disadvantage if you can't use AI or if you don't know how to integrate it. So I do think there's value in figuring out where it fits, but to enforce it like Shopify is doing, that's fascinating. I don't know. Well, and the interesting thing, I just want to touch on that because I think that's actually a really important point. And I think I told the story...

on this podcast, maybe on the, maybe on our bonus episode about my son who literally just typed a question into chat GPT and turned it in. And the teacher was like, and he's 10 and the teacher's like, this is really, really good.

this is a little bit too good for a fifth grader. And he just asked him, he's like, so, and my son just admitted it right away. And we had to have a little talk about it. But, but the reason that it was obvious to the teacher of what had happened is that my son just knew that if he typed a thing into Chachi Petit, it would spit out an answer. He doesn't know anything about how to evaluate that answer. Like that is still the value. And I think that's why schools push back on it because knowing how to use the tool is great. But the reason that

ai these ai tools are useful to you and i is that we have 30 or 40 years of experience judging reality and so when it gives us something we either a know yeah that's not quite right or you know like i remember recently somebody asked a question about like why was steve jobs fired the first time from apple and i'm like i pretty much know the answer but let me see what chat gpt says and it and chat gpt gave me the answer back that steve jobs left apple to go become the ceo of pepsi

Which conflates the fact that Steve Jobs had hired John Sculley, who had been at Pepsi, to become the CEO of Apple. And I'm like, but imagine if my 10-year-old is like, all I know is that if I ask ChatJPT a question, it'll tell me something. But I have a lot of experience with Apple. And I'm like, nope, Steve Jobs, never the CEO of Pepsi. Pretty sure. That did not happen. Right. But that's an important piece of it. And so learning how to learn is important so that you can then evaluate the garbage that comes out of all these chatbots.

Learning how to learn. That's deep, Jason. I'll also say, so one of my use cases for ChatGPT is every time I make a video, I transcribe it, I give that to ChatGPT and I ask it for title and description ideas for YouTube.

And I've been doing like best apps or whatever for this and that and best whatever. And the last couple of weeks, it's basically been saying the best apps of 2024. I could refuse to say 2025. And I don't know, like surely it knows what year it is, but for some reason it's not like it's, it's stuck in last year. It's almost like,

It's funny, it's like the human brain. Once the year changes, it takes you a couple of months to think about it. It's writing the data on checks out of the checkbook and it's still dating them the wrong thing. Exactly. So I don't know, maybe it's becoming more human. Maybe it's becoming more human. I don't know. But a couple other AI news. Meta was caught maybe cheating a little bit with their AI model. So Meta has Llama, right now Llama 4. And one of the big differences between Llama and the others, like Chachapiti,

and the other AI companies is that Lama is open. And so people can like get in there and look at the code. And so Lama being an open platform, it was impressive that in their latest model, it seemed to perform better than ChatGPT 4.0, I believe. And then the Google's 2.0, or I think it was, or Gemini 2.5 Pro, it got a higher score. But traditionally,

turns out after people were poking around in the actual model used in the testing which it's LM Arena apparently is where this testing is done. I believe it's probably like language model arena and apparently Meta used this

experimental model and it might be the case that Meta has been making models specifically for this testing platform LM Arena to make it seem like the models are smarter than they are just like knowing how to tweak the conversational settings to kind of trick it and so it was a little bit like is Meta gaming their AI scores and

What does that even mean? I don't know. Like, does it matter like long-term, but, but they're doing something shady, which I feel like not, uh, not something new for meta. So that part's not surprising, but it is weird. I'll just say like Lama, it's so interesting that meta is doing this because I feel like the primary motivation for, for Facebook meta, whatever, to have its own, uh,

LLM that it can build on is this idea of like instantly targeted personalized ads, right? Being able to show you and I a personalized ad that's like, Hey Jason, you should buy a belt. I'm like, thank you for that. Right? Like just all of that kind of thing. Just wait. You know, you and I have talked about this before. Like you go on Instagram, you click on a thing, you buy the thing you clicked on and then

for the next week, all you see are ads for the thing that you just bought. I'm like, that's dumb. Just wait till you like, you suddenly are getting the ads that are like, Jason, we know how much you like belts. You should buy another one. And here's the best one we found. Like, that's what's going to happen because you're going to be able to on demand, generate these things.

And yet a large part of what Facebook is doing is they're just, they're building this open source models that they want other people to build on. And I think though, the reason for doing that is just a hedge against Gemini, you know, Google and whatever. They don't, they want to make sure that there's another player out there, but also like it doesn't, I don't ever hear anyone.

like i've other than you and i talking about it right now i've never had a conversation with anyone about llama or anything about his building right except for the fact that people are constantly like how come when i search for something in instagram it automatically tries to give me this ai gen it's like i just wanted to i couldn't remember the person's profile name and all i wanted to do is type it in and it's like ask meta ai or search and you're just like

What are you doing? Listen, I didn't know if I was going to share this story, but I want to share it because I'm so glad. I don't even know what it is. They're gaming the llama systems. I'm just upset because Instagram, listen.

Instagram is like my smallest following so it's not a big deal, but my son he wanted to start posting on Instagram For reels and skateboard videos and things like that. So I was like, okay Well, let me set this up and I tried to use the new teen setup feature Which I don't know if you've seen this Jason But Instagram now has the you can set it up as a teen and there's like parental controls or whatever So I was like, okay. Well, let me do this teen setup and see how this goes apparently somewhere in the process of

It asked me if I wanted to add my son's Instagram account into my meta accounts. And I was like, well, I am asking. I do want it to be like a child account that I manage. So yes, let's do that. And once it did that,

It apparently like meta accounts is something different where when I added his Instagram account to mine, it took the birthday of my son's account and made that the birthday for all my meta accounts.

So now my personal Facebook, my personal Instagram, all of it thinks I'm a 15 year old. You have discovered the secret to anti-aging, Steven. No, but it is also the secret to now my profile is private and I can't make it public again without the quote unquote help of a parent. And I'm like,

what is happening? And then when I try to change my birthday, it says, well, you've recently changed your birthday and you have to wait a few days to change it again, which this was like four days ago. And so now I'm like stuck and I'm like approving follower requests and Instagram like an animal because my account is private and I don't know. I'm gonna try it again right now. I'm

I'm going to my meta. This might explain why you have the smallest following on Instagram. It says, you've recently changed your birthday. There is a limit to how many times you change it. So I removed my son's account from my meta accounts thinking, well, maybe it'll snap back to what it was. It didn't. Spoiler. And so now I'm still a 15 year old. And then...

I love that you, according to Facebook or according to Instagram, you apparently joined Instagram when you were like three and a half months old based on when your birthday was and the date you joined Instagram. So I tried contacting support. That was no help. They were like, well, yeah, you changed your birthday recently, so you can't change it back. But I didn't change it. I was just trying to add myself. So anyway, then I tried because we actually have a primary technology Instagram account that's just out there. I don't really post anything to it.

But I tried making that my parent to then see if I could change my birthday through that account. You can't just make anyone your parents even. There's like laws of something. Apparently Primary Tech Show could not be my parent. And so I wasn't able to do that. So now my Instagram account is stuck in private as a teenager. And anytime it's like even close to 10 p.m., it's like time to shut down for the night.

Instagram. Go to bed, Steven. Yeah. I, um, I will, uh, I'll connect you with somebody who can help you after this. Oh, for real? Yeah. For real. Oh, shoot. I didn't realize you had the hookup. I'm just saying. You're going to connect me to Lama? Lama4? I'm going to, I'm going to send you directly to a chat bot. Can it help me out? Tell you congratulations on your 15th birthday, Steven. We're excited for you. No, I'm just like, I think I will just, okay.

I have had this experience recently, not with that. Although we do have both of our daughters have teen accounts and there are some, the most frustrating, you think screen time is bad? The most frustrating thing is if we can be like, you get two hours of Instagram a day. I don't care how you use it. I don't ever want to be bothered by it. Never send me a screen time request. Never talk to me about it. Just if you've used two hours on Instagram, I don't want to hear about it. You're done, right? Like whatever.

Well, there are times when I think at one point it was like, maybe it's an hour. I can't remember, but there was times when there were at a soccer tournament. So she's posting pictures all day or whatever like that. And so like she would reach that limit. And so she'd be like, could I just have a little bit more time so I could put together this recap post or something like that. But,

But it doesn't tell you like you don't get a notification for that. You have to tap on your notifications and it will appear at the top of the notifications that so-and-so has asked you for more time in Instagram. But it actually, there's like no actual notification for that. So she could just be like sitting there sending the message and just waiting for me to respond. And I'll never know if she doesn't also text me. It's like, what kind of a weird system is this? And Meta,

makes it so that that whole association of accounts is so Byzantine and so convoluted. I was trying to help an organization create a child, not a child, a, like a organizationally child, like a sub account on Instagram. And if you don't go into the meta accounts, uh,

and do it that way they won't be associated which means you can't connect it via API to certain like you know posting services yeah exactly but figuring out how to do that is almost impossible right it is almost impossible it is so Byzantine you have to have a PhD in

in, in D U M B. Like it's just unbelievable. It is. It is ridiculous. So anyway, I just wanted to vent a little bit because it's all week. My Instagram account has been like, Hey teenager, like I have a full beard and I have three children. Can we, like, you can see my pictures anyway. Uh, let's last AI news. And I'll throw it to you. This is about anthropic. Uh, they've been trying to upsell you, Jason. Is that right? This is true.

Yeah. I got an email the other day that said, so I paid for Claude like a lot of people did when it first came out just to try to check it out and that kind of stuff. And Claude is Anthropix chatbot, just like chat GPTs, opening eyes. And at one point, so I subscribed to it. I think it was 20 bucks a month. And I was like, I'm not paying for all of these. So I canceled my pro plan with Claude.

And I got an email just, I guess it was yesterday, saying, we noticed that when you left Claude's pro plan, that the reason was that usage limits were probably getting in your way. Like, I didn't tell them that, right? It's like, we noticed that likely it was because usage limits, because you could only send so many requests or whatever, right? Did you actually hit that when you were using it? No, I used it twice. I paid 20 bucks and used the thing twice. Used it twice.

This is not a usage limits thing. We noticed that when you left, the usage limits were likely getting in your way. We've built something new. Introducing the Max plan designed for those who need expanded access to cloud for the most important work. Substantially more usage to work with cloud. So I canceled my account because I did not want to pay them $20 a month for something I only use twice. And so their solution is I could pay them $200 a month.

For 20 times more usage, even though I never got close to it. So they have a $100 a month tier and a $200 a month tier. And I don't really know what that means because the email simply says you get five times more usage or 20 times more usage. 20 times more usage for double the cost does seem like it's a better deal. I don't really understand how the math adds out. But I don't even know more than what. Like, what are these limits? At least with like ChatGPT, when they said if you pay the...

$200 a month plan right you get this many queries to deep research right you get you know what I mean like you it was pretty clear some sort of a quantity associated with it so you know but this is just like no 5x this is this is a typical what do they call those bezos charts where there's like a line that means absolutely nothing apple's really good at that there's no x or y axis it's just a curve it's like it's more it's 10 times more efficient than this thing that you don't know what it is right so

Yeah. That's hilarious. It's amazing. These companies, I mean, I guess people are paying for them because for these plans to exist, but also that's literally the reason it exists is because yes, there are people who will pay for it. Can we also stop calling everything max? Everything's max.

I know we already got the pro max. There's pro and there's max. Pro and there's max. Those are the only three adjectives you can use to describe something. And everyone is using them. Dell uses them now. Apple uses them. Claude uses them. ChatGPT uses them. I'm going to use AI in my job right now. Shopify CEO, if you're listening. What are 10 other words for max? I'm asking ChatGPT right now. This is how you use AI in your work. Okay.

Here's 10 other options. Peak. Hold on. Before you say any of them, you're going to, Stephen's going to explain this to us and it will be the perfect example of why they just use the same words over and over. Yeah. These aren't great. Okay. So if you're using max as maximum, other words are peak limit, top cap ceiling, upper bound extremum. I didn't know those word Zenith apex and utmost maximum.

Now, I don't know about you, but iPhone 17 Pro Apex? No, it's the 17 Apex ceiling. That's the Zenith. Maybe, yeah, 17 Zenith. Yeah, iPhone 17 Pro Utmost.

It rolls right off the tongue. Anyway, if you're using Max as a nickname, you should also consider Maximus, Maxwell, Maximilian, Maxie, Mac, Mace, MJ, Max and Max and Mako. I don't know why it gave me all those. Because it's a name for a person. Anyway, I'm up for the iPhone 17 Apex. I'm down for that. Let's do it. Let's do it. Chat GPT utmost. Let's manifest this as the kids would say. I don't like that word. It's like moist. That's...

Also, this is the thing. When you start to hear your kids say words that are cool among teens that have been around for a very long time and we gave up on saying them because we realized that we just sounded stupid. And now you're like, I'm both old.

And I'm completely out of touch. Wait, like what? Like what? Like that. Like the kids are like, yesterday we had our daughter had her first track meet and it was such bad weather. And they got to a point in the meet where my daughter's school was so far ahead of the other two schools that there was no chance that anyone else was going to beat them. So they're like, should we all just agree that the meet's over?

And they decided yes. And my daughter walks off the track and she's like, I manifested that. I did not want to run that 200 meter dash. So I manifested it. I'm like, stop talking right now. I love you, but I'm going to leave you here in the rain. Like, what are you, Storm from the X-Men? Get out of here. That's hilarious.

All right. It's time. It's tariff time. So listen, if, if you think saying the word tariffs is political, please use the chapters and skip forward to Microsoft 50th anniversary birthday or whatever. Uh, and I, I will be honest. I was trying to avoid and did not care about tariffs. I tried not to, but then this happened, which even my kids got like, Oh, we don't like tariffs is because the Nintendo switch to pre-order was supposed to happen earlier this week. And then due to tariffs, Nintendo,

Nintendo delayed it. The pre-orders did not start. I think they did start in other places like the UK. You were able to pre-order a switch, but here in the U S due to tariff concerns and unknowns, you couldn't pre-order it. And this alone, it's made me upset. I wanted to, and you know who got the worst deal on this? Who's that? I believe it's true. Uh,

that Nintendo also paused the pre-orders in Canada because Canada is very close. In fact, I can drive to Canada from where I live in an hour and 40 minutes. You're very close to it.

And so I think that they were trying to avoid the fact that suddenly there would be millions of Americans crossing the border into Canada to buy bootleg versions of the Switch 2. And then they wouldn't sell any in the U.S. once that, you know what I mean? Like, so they had to pause them in Canada as well, which is just insane. So this whole thing. Yeah. Apparently the launch date is still June 5th, which we'll see.

So but the actual news is tariffs have come and gone. There was, you know, Trump made an announcement about tariffs that were going to be hitting like 10 percent across everybody and then much higher percentages on certain countries. And then just yesterday, April 9th, Trump said on Truth Social that he is putting a 90 day deadline.

on many of the tariffs or a 90-day pause except for China, who he doubled down and is tariffing them even more, I believe. Yeah, yesterday morning we woke up and it was 104% and then he just randomly changed it to 125%. Right. And then he voided all of the reciprocal tariffs above 10% everywhere else except for China because he says that they're very unproductive.

unfair to the world markets or something like that, which I don't know. Yeah. So that... This is the quote. Lack of respect that China has shown to the world's markets. And world's markets is in capital. And I don't know if you have these in Florida, but there is actually a store near here called World Market. And I thought...

And it's mostly imported stuff from around the world. And I read that tweet and I thought to myself, he's really upset. Has he been shopping at world market or something? Like what's going on? I did not know that was the thing. So those are just the facts. It's no point. It's just tariffs has happened and now unhappened, but they're still happening. Kind of.

But the tech angle, this was wild in order before the delay of the tariffs. And even now, even though it's still affecting China, like the delay did not affect China. And that's where a bunch of Apple devices are still made. Apple is trying to beat the tariff deadlines by just shipping over as many products as it can before they hit. So they can be imported and not be charged that tariff. And so there's supposedly all these planes coming over with Apple product freights, but

But what I thought was interesting, Ryan Jones here on X actually did some back of the napkin math, I believe you call it.

And so how much is five planes full of iPhones? And so a seven, this is the math he's doing. Seems accurate, at least close. But a 747 freighter, big airplane, carries 300,000 pounds and weight, you know, you can't really measure volume. You don't know how they package these things, but weight is something that you can say, well, the plane can only hold this much weight. So what does that mean? A boxed iPhone is 0.9 pounds.

And so that's 350,000 iPhones per plane. And again, it's probably generous, probably a little less with just how they fit or whatever. And so that's 1.75 million iPhones that it could ship in five planes. And then he did more math saying there were 224 million iPhones sold last year and then 500,000 a day in quarter two. And so if,

Five planes of iPhones came over from China. That's basically 11 days of inventory for here in the U S and that's just, just the U S 11 days. That's just wild. Well, okay.

You said this seems accurate, but what you really mean is like, yeah, there's numbers and I don't know what you're talking about. So I'm just going to assume that this is all correct. But there are some assumptions here. We don't actually know how many iPhones Apple sells in a year. We just base it on what we think the average number, average sale price is divided by the amount of revenue that they say. We also don't know exactly how much of that revenue would be distributed in different places. So.

There's that. But the most important thing is I think that this is all just hogwash because if you go back to the report, it's saying that most of them are items over $3,000.

They're trying to bring as many things over, especially items. Those are not iPhones, buddy. MacBook Pros. That thing. No, that thing's full of Vision Pros, man. They're getting as many. I'm just kidding. No, but it's, but I'm just saying like, those are not iPhones. No, I'm sure there are iPhones on there, but I think that if you're thinking about what the maximum impact of a tariff is going to be, if it's based on the value of the product that comes over, not the retail price, as we were reminded, the value of the product.

a MacBook Pro, a Mac Studio, even a souped up Mac mini or whatever is going to be much more adversely affected by tariffs of 125% than an iPhone. So I think that that's probably, there's a lot of assumptions going on, but your point is that it's not that much of a supply that they're able to bring over. Right. Even if the numbers are wildly off.

I mean, we're talking weeks of supply, not like enough supply to figure out, to outlast this tariff war, which again, what is actually going to happen? What is happening? It seems like, again, I'm not an economy expert nor a political expert. It feels a little bit like a game of chicken, like who's going to cave first with tariffs as far as like China, US, whatever. And then the other point is,

Again, not to be political, but it seems like... Did you know that if you say not to be political, you're just being political? Is it? I'm just kidding, Stephen. I don't know. The only point that I will make is the announcements that Trump is making wherever about tariffs, I'm going to put this one up, about TikTok and the ban, these things keep moving. They're just clearly moving targets. And I don't think that's one side or the other. It's just clear like,

There's going to be tariffs. And then now there's a delay of tariffs for 90 days. TikTok is going to get banned. And now there's a TikTok delay on the ban. And there was even, TikTok was supposed to have a buyer by last weekend. That didn't happen. And so. And you know, and you know why it didn't happen? Why's that? Because he slapped tariffs on China. They had an agreement. This is reporting. They had an agreement in principle that,

But it required the approval of the Chinese government. And they just, they were, they decided they're not, they blew the whole thing up by adding those tariffs to China. But going back to the tariffs thing for a second, in the planes specifically, I think the way to think about those planes is that

that their dollar cost averaging, this is not, we just shipped over the next 12 days of supply early. What this means is we now have 12 days of supply that we can then filter into all of the normal supply chain. That's going to continue moving. The supply chain is not stopping. It's not like Apple has to stop selling phones in 12 days. They're going to continue doing all of the normal things, but you just bought a bunch extra. You're leveraging against the future cost. And so imagine if you like,

if you thought the price of gas was going to get more expensive and you just went and bought a bunch of gas, right? That you could fit into as many gas cans as you had. Right. So that over time you could be adding that gas as you're continuing to buy gas. So the more expensive gas actually, uh,

dollar cost average cost you over time yeah and so that i think is a better way of thinking of it that 12 days worth of supply maybe they're expecting that to last them 60 days and it brings the overall cost and actually apple's probably not going to raise i'm almost sure they're not going to raise the price of an iphone in the next 60 days so they're just it's mitigating against how much of a hit they might take to their bottom line

Right. So I think that's a more important way. And in that perspective, having 12 days, full days of supply that you could spread out over. I mean, I don't know if you do the math, but like you could lower the impact of the tariffs by something like 20%, you know, because 12 days out of 60 days, that's a big deal for a company like Apple. Right. So I think the real life implication of whatever's happening, like just like the normal people,

There were reports that customers were going to Apple stores trying to buy Apple devices, hopefully before, like you're saying, prices are raised. You said you even had people texting you. I had six people on Monday or Tuesday asking me, I'm going to the store today. What do I buy? Right. And so to your point, I don't know. Prices are not going to change in the next 60 days, even if whatever happens with the tariffs.

I do think there's probably consideration on the next iPhone lineup come September that we might see price raises. I have no basis for this, but I feel like even if prices go up, Apple's probably going to do like $100 or $200. I don't think they're going to do 30% to 40% to like one-to-one cover the tariffs. No data just doesn't feel like they would do that. I mean, how do you...

fail they would do that yeah i think the more likely scenario is that for every 10 that they increase the tariffs you're going to get another notification in the settings app to sign up for

Every percent. You laugh, but you actually know that what I'm saying is 100% true. It is funny because I have an iPhone 14 here that I'll do betas on, and it's not signed up for anything. There's an iCloud account on it, but it doesn't pay for Apple One, doesn't pay for any Apple services. And the amount of notifications that I have to clear on that phone about iCloud storage, about News+, about Fitness+, about Apple Music, it is pretty wild.

Yeah, just this morning I posted a photo that was in my iPad that said,

image creation tools are here. Open image playgrounds in the settings app. There's an ad to get me to open it. And I, and I wrote, I'm like, yes, I know that it exists. No, I don't ever want to open it on my iPad. The fact that I have not opened it is not that I don't know it's there, but it's a terrible app. You don't need to tell me about it. In fact, you just made me think less of you settings app because you told me about this app that I don't want to use. So, but I do think there's, I say that somewhat jokingly, but I actually think it's true that Apple and they're in, they're doing the math that they,

It is better for us in the long term because we don't think that these tariffs will last forever to absorb some of the costs and continue being able to sell phones because the real money we make on the phones, sure, we make 35% margins on it, but the real money we make is the 70% margins on all the services. And as long as we can keep getting people to...

pay for more in-app subscriptions where we collect 30 cents for doing basically nothing. The more we can get people to sign up for iCloud storage because we only give them five gigs of whatever. The more we can get people to sign up for Fitness Plus and Apple TV Plus and all those different types of things, that's better for Apple in the long run because that is their growth engine. And I think that they will protect that at all costs, even if it means eating some of the margin on the hardware.

Yes, but I would point out, I'll put a link to Jason Snell's last Apple quarterly revenue thing where he has a bunch of charts. iPhone revenue, meaning just the hardware, which is what would be affected by tariffs, is 56% of their revenue. More than half of the company is just iPhone hardware sales. And so if tariffs aid into a significant portion of that,

I mean, yeah, they could eat some of it, but that would be like a significant hit to their bottom line. And services, while it is a growing portion, it is the second biggest portion of the pie, literally the pie that I'm showing here on screen. It's 21%. And so they can push people more towards those, but the iPhone is still far and away such a massive part of their business.

i mean they would have to do something if the margin scroll down scroll down just a little bit farther on that chart i know this is really good podcasting it doesn't show you okay the thing yeah there's that's the interesting piece of it because the when you look at the services it's yes it's a much smaller total part of the pie in terms of the revenue that it generates but the percentage of that's almost all profit

Right. The services revenue is one thing, but the services profit because the margin on its services is like 70 some percent. Just think about it. Like every dollar it collects in app store commissions is just free money for Apple. Right. Which is a majority of the services revenue, but they are also spending billions of dollars on like...

content for Apple TV plus. Yeah. But you, they could spend $10 billion a year on original content. And that would only be half of what Google gives them for the default search. Like, no, I'm serious. I like, and that's just free money. Yeah. Yeah. So what I, all I'm trying to say is like, yes. And that total, that total revenue for the iPhone is worldwide. And we're only talking about the U S and so it's a fraction of that. And they could, they are going to maintain the price point because that they

that revenue dollar amount will not change if they keep the price point the same, their profit is what's going to change. And what I'm arguing is that they'd rather take a hit on the iPhone's profit margin. Even if they took a loss on every iPhone that they sold for a short period of time, Apple will be fine. They can afford to do that. They have so much cash on hand. Like it's just ridiculous. Um,

That is beneficial to them to keep that services line going up because that services line going up is what keeps their stock price up. And that's what this part of the chart on the six colors, that services just gradually going up, whereas the product profit graph, it's a widely...

you know well then it changes because that's the total which means and you just notice that every four every i think it's apple's first quarter which is our fourth quarter or whatever it's the yeah it's well it's actually the holidays the holidays is really when it's a big deal and obviously they time the iphone coming out to that you see it in in total dollars that profit goes way up because they sell a lot more it's a lot more yeah well that was good i appreciate that that explanation that was good all right let's talk about something fun microsoft

microsoft you said fun well listen microsoft and microsoft has had some fun things over the years microsoft celebrated 50 years they had a big event with bill gates steve ballmer and sundar pachai and they were all no satya nadela sorry sundar pachai is google satya nadela is microsoft but they did a big event did you listen to that that verge cast where they played clips from the event

I did not listen to a Verge cast where they play clips, but I watched a video of the event. Well, Bomber did his like developers yell again, which is what he's famous for. There were also some protesters at the event. I think it was twice. Protesters actually like stood up and started shouting and they had to be removed. They were actually Microsoft employees and they've since been fired. That was news just yesterday. So that kind of put a...

It tainted the event a little bit, but talking about things Microsoft has made over the years, the verge has this awesome top 50 things that Microsoft has made Clippy being number 50, which David Pierce at the verge was like, was Microsoft just like way ahead on AI assistance and just Clippy was too soon. Maybe, maybe, but there's also a bunch of other things in this list. Some of the things that I forgot are,

some things that you know are still great like the zune that was still a cool device the surface headphones and uh just a bunch of other stuff i didn't realize did microsoft invent comic sans um i mean it's oh yeah microsoft designer vincent canary created comic sans in 1944 and was a scourge on society 1994 what what did i say 1944 no 1994 so

Sorry. That's right. 1944. There were no personal computers, but we were making fun. I had an IBM computer as a kid and it ran windows 3.1. And I still remember my dad trying to figure out what to do with MS-DOS and how to do C colon forward slash to access the file system. Very fond memories. A couple of old Microsoft computer games. Did you ever play commander Keene?

You're doing King's quest. You ever play King's quest? Oh yeah. Like seven different versions. Yes. In fact, you can play those online still. There are like emulators online. You can still play. I better not. I would fall down that rabbit hole so fast. And then, uh, do you remember battle toads? No. Our listeners and viewers. If you remember, if you remember commander keen or battle toads, please let me know. And then Starcraft was, was big in, in high school when we had a compact for Sario.

But I will say SimCity, you left out SimCity. I did play SimCity and I played like a weird like MLB baseball game and there was like a magic carpet game that came with it. I remember going to like Office Depot and Staples and playing the ski game, Ski Free. Ski Free, yeah. Ski Free on the computers. That was, oh, look at that. That's actually in this article is number 35. I'll put that as my, as maybe second fondest memory because I played a lot of Ski Free.

And I also remember sometimes it would go to screensaver and it would be password protected. But if you just hard reset the PC by holding the power button, it would start up again without the screensaver or password. So I did that. But I'm actually going to be nostalgic for Windows Phone because... Nobody's nostalgic for Windows Phone. No, there is nostalgia for Windows Phone because it was an interesting and different operating system.

the Metro interface, which is still alive in Windows today. But I also think Windows Phone garnered some interesting hardware, like the Lumia series of phones where it had like crazy cameras and, you know, cool Windows phones. And the one Windows phone I want to talk about that I was very nostalgic for and still am

The Dell Venue Pro. Do you remember this phone? No, because no one cares about Windows phones. That's not true. People care about this. I need you listeners. Who are the people? Come to my aid in the community. Who cares about this? The Dell Venue Pro ran Windows phone. It was a slider with a full QWERTY keyboard at the bottom.

And I remember I took this with me on an international trip because I was like, I could just put whatever SIM card in here and it'd be great. Because I remember I brought this and my iPhone, but the Dell Venue Pro, I don't know what it was about it. I thought this phone was so cool and I miss it. And it's another gadget that I'm sorry I sold or gave away or lost. I don't know what happened to it, but the Dell Venue Pro, that's my thing. These were big events. Don't you remember the Windows Phone events where

They would announce like multiple windows phones. There was like Samsung was like, it was a big deal. Like they tried to make it a thing. Yeah, I do. And I also remember when they burned the whole thing down and took a multi-billion dollar loss on the Nokia thing. Cause like, yeah, it was just a day. Yeah. I don't want to make people mad, but I feel like I'm actually not going to make anyone listen to this mad by saying very few people really care that much about windows phone. It's fair, but it was crazy.

It was a third option. It was interesting. It was interesting. It was not good. It was not like... But it was interesting. It was a different take. The design language part of it, fine. It didn't work because Windows doesn't work on a phone. It's like... It doesn't... But I do agree that it was interesting. And I also agree...

that at the time right android android was not nearly as ubiquitous of an ecosystem of devices as it is today and so having all of these different sort of like microsoft just by its sheer size could get people to make these phones right the problem is like the phones were interesting but the phones themselves weren't necessarily amazing either they weren't great the nokia lumia phones were interesting again because of the camera and the hardware was pretty slick

This is, I'm going to link this event in the show notes. Remember, if you want to get this in an email, you could subscribe and you'll get this in an email tomorrow morning. But this was the Windows Phone 7 launch event. And the little live tiles,

I don't know. I feel like they were early. This was like early widgets that were supposedly constantly updating. And I don't know. I thought it was cool. It was a viable third alternative for like iPhone, Android, Windows phone. It was an interesting third alternative. It was never viable. Like it was terrible. It died. And the reason is because

Microsoft couldn't get it out of its mind that it had to be Windows. Right. And also they couldn't get the developer buy-in. So like you didn't have Instagram or whatever on it for, I don't know if you ever did, but anyway, what are you nostalgic for Microsoft wise?

I'm not really nostalgic for that many things Microsoft-wise, but I do really... I mean, I don't hate Microsoft. I didn't have a Mac until 2000. We were just talking about this. 2001, I think it was. I was trying to find my first purchase and receipt in my email, and I have a lot of them. Anyway...

So I grew up in a household where we had a compact. No, we had a Packard Bell desktop computer in our family room back. That's where we had this conversation about the family computer, right? We had a family computer. And originally, we had it and it ran DOS. And my dad created some kind of a menu and you'd push one and it would boot Windows or whatever. And I can remember getting on the internet.

So a lot of my early computer memories are nostalgic. Happened in Windows. I think Windows 3.0 and then 3.1 and then 95 and 98. I remember all of those things very, very, very well. But I don't look back and think, oh, I want to do that again. No, I definitely... No, no. King's Quest was a big part of our civilization. Myst, those types of games were a big deal at the time. But I think for me, I would...

I had a friend at the time who had a Mac. I don't really know which one it was, an SE2 or something like that probably. This was in like maybe 1987, 8, 9, whatever. The Mac was relatively new and Windows was – there was no Windows at the time, right? Well, I don't know when 3.0 came out, but it doesn't matter. And I was super jealous. Yeah.

I was super jealous of that Mac interface and all the stuff that you could do. And so most of my early Microsoft nostalgia things are jealousy of my friend who had a Macintosh. Windows 3.0 came out May 1990. So it was definitely, yeah, I mean, that makes about sense. Well, yeah. Descent. You ever played Descent, that game?

There are probably so many things I forgot. Yeah, I know. I know that I've played. I, but yeah, it was, uh, I don't know. I, I grew up windows, you know, I didn't start using Mac until college. So it was, it was a big part, but I will say that the windows XP wallpaper, I'm nostalgic for that.

That's number... I mean it for real. I know. I get it. Oh, Microsoft Golf. Microsoft Golf. Oh, Microsoft Golf. There you go. That was probably my favorite game. And that thing was just... It was insane, but it was... Yeah. The Windows XP wallpaper, it's number 27 on the Verge's list. It's amazing how iconic that wallpaper is. And just like...

I don't know, immediately recognizable. Apparently it's a place like I've also seen people like on TikTok, like go to this hill can recreate this picture, but also windows just XP is the operating system. The longevity of that operating system in some places. I remember I went to the optometrist and this was like,

2013 2014 and I remember Windows XP was running the computer that was doing it I was like I need to find another optometrist number one but number two like amazing that it has stood this long so well that's what happened with the CrowdStrike that's why Delta couldn't schedule anyone because the computer system that was running that software was still running like Windows 95 and

And the best part about it is if you're running Windows 11 today and you go into the settings menu and you click on just about anything and it opens another menu and then you click on any of those options, you're probably going to see a Windows 95 window pop up. Yeah, exactly. Amazing. Amazing. All right. Well, that's Windows. We're going to go talk about digital spring cleaning. I'm curious to hear Jason's strategy for cleaning his digital life, if there even is a strategy. Yeah.

I'm interested to hear what this topic means. Okay, well, yeah, we'll talk about it. So we're going to go record a bonus episode. And we didn't have a sponsor this week, so thank you all if you support the show. And if you don't already, you can support the show either directly on Apple Podcasts or at primarytech.fm and click bonus episodes. And you get ad-free versions when they're sponsors, but also you get a bonus episode every week. And you can listen to the entire back catalog.

when you support us there. You also get chapters when you support us at primarytech.fm. You can join the community, come to my aid, listeners and viewers about nostalgia for Windows. And if anybody played Commander Keen, I'd love to hear it. And you can sign up for the newsletter if you want the show notes and you get all the links in a nice tidy email. It'll be every Friday morning. It'll come out. You can subscribe down below. Thanks for listening. Thanks for watching. We'll catch you next time.