264: Will's Congressman's Enormous Wang
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You know, it's possible I did a little light food poisoning ah this weekend, did a little like to yourself. I like sometimes wounds yourself, inflicted we hurt the ones we love the most.

Yes, I did IT.

I know maybe I was monday and I was like, I could go for his neck and the thanksgiving leftovers were still in the fridge. no. And I thought I was sunday. Or maybe, you know, I was the times a little fungible over the long weekend when you don't go back to work until tuesday, usually .

hours an age.

friday, saturday, sunday, monday.

oh, monday, okay, yeah.

ninety six hours, yeah. And look, I I made a bigger play sides and put some gravy on IT and had a gobble at all up. And then, strAngely enough, i'd like one a clock in the morning on sunday, monday night. I didn't feel, I didn't feel like I feel bad, but I definitely didn't feel good. No, I warmed IT up, but foot ys think says that worked that way.

The food, right?

So this, I didn't realize this until fairly recently, but there's a food safety podcast that I listen to occasionally ah that is uh that they talk about this food poisoning is when things are growing in your food that excrete things that are toxic for you.

Most of the time I had this.

And so thus when you at heat up food that has things growing in IT, you kill the things that are producing the toxin, but the toxins remain.

Another pop.

the pop, the pop is still there. The poison pop. Get all the, all the, all the exeter to b are are still there. Blast in your guts.

So is univer definitely heard before that some food poisoning was caused by the actual microbes and others was based on the exclusion, but is at all the latter.

So I don't think it's food poisoning. I think you're just get an infection if you eat something that's infectious. So like, for example, if you drink raw milk, then in california you can get h five and one, which is the bird blue virus and is really, you don't want that, avoid that, the gift that keeps give yeah but you can get that by interesting contaminated food, like work, like unpaid ized milk.

So this is, this is one of the reasons that one hundred years ago we were, like, hundred and fifty years ago, like, you know, it's good pastorius ation IT kills all the things that that kill a lot of people from food born illnesses. So food boys, and that is eating food that poisoned you. Food tbto n illnesses are eating foods that make you sick.

I see. Yeah, I see.

I see. I see.

Welcome to brand willing to text pod.

i'm will my bread of the .

podcast is called food safety talk and has done and then they talk about food safety and like micro is it's like the kind of stuff you get in microbiology. If you take that in college, like you get a little taste to that there, they're very good. sure.

Food safety is a good thing to talk about on a show called food safety talk.

I mean, IT look, IT is exactly what you have. Their little their logo is a thermometer with the line and the temperature is above the top line of the thoma because like they talk about like food fee, like safety ranges .

for pastis food stuff, like in temperature rice.

They've done three and thirteen episodes. Three and empty episode was assuming they have done an episode about anything like they do question and answer episodes, take questions in .

a few times of fifty episodes.

I know they started around the same time. We did. I think maybe a little before.

I I assume you've ve seen not to just the railed podcast right from the top. I assume you've seen the controversy about left of the rice.

Look, people crazy about rice men. Like what is that is you leave IT at room temperature. IT grows something that will instantly murder your entire family. The basically, my understanding is this a real thing is just like the fans.

I don't know, I really don't know. I can tell you though that we have eaten nature mendous mt. Of light rise around here.

but I always take you out right out of the rice cooker, then put IT directly in the fridge. I think that's the recommendation. Yeah, I don't know that. I don't look, we're not food safety people if you want to know the answer, if this go to food safety talk, the podcast for food safety people. If you want to talk about pat gangs, girl singer retiring from intel surprise like in a surprise announcement and also what the hell up with word pad, this is the podcast for you.

We made up the food safety experts for definitely technology experts.

We've got a tooth a day for um today. Uh well we had two things that I think initially like this always happens when we do a two. First we to say, all these aren't big enough for an episode their own.

And then we go, and right, like fifteen pages and notes. And here, here we are. So you want do until first you want to do work. Okay, this is .

the big news, let's say with an a nearly fear of technology news is the big story. And I want to say there's other stuff go on on out .

there yeah so pat girl, sugar came back to until in twenty twenty one, I think twenty twenty two as kind of the savior of intel like they've had wes theyve had some problems. They had the rapture lakes refresh. And having to release the same processor twice with caught up cores, three times really with clocked top cores, was a real kind of black eye.

And you've been getting their asses kicked by in video in like the AI stuff. The emty is rising in consumer. It's not been a good time for AMD. And they brought pad in on this um in let's see where i'd brought down here somewhere. But they brought out in with the idea that he had a core strategy.

And the core strategy was that they renew five nodes, meaning five new processes, in four years and regained technological expertise in manufacturing as well a manufacturing intel chips, as well as becoming as their foundry business, their to manufacturing business, becoming A U. S. Based leader in contract chip manufacturing that can compete with dsm c people don't know, uh T M sees to taiwan and we conduct your manufacturing company I think yes right. Um and and they make literally sixty percent of all chips and ninety percent of advanced processes PS. So advanced cesc PS or things like CPU GPU, anything that uses like a novel new really identity process, uh manufacturing process for for chips.

So right anything that needs to be very efficient like like what's your phone or on data center blades?

Yeah it's and fast. yes. Is is the thing that they do. And and so until the LED process technology for forty years, T S M C kind of came up and scoop up all the armed business and all the GPU business over the years. And um gelsinger came .

in as a person .

who joined intel when they were eighteen years old with associated degree and you wrote books about programing the three eighty six and was the lead architect of the four eighty .

six known about his in fact, i've got a youth starter from amazon. Well I don't have new copies anymore but programing the the eighty three eighty six ah they still .

put the eighty in front of the processor names .

back then I got my understanding is that like kind of the book about you like assembly of that error?

Well, if you think about IT the the so the three ty six was the beginning of intel had dominance in the early PC era, the eight bit and sixteen bit errors with the eight eighty eight and and the and the two eighty six. But the three eighty six is the beginning of modern windows 3 ty six was what？ Room windows ninety five.

yeah, first thirty tupid CPU from them, right?

First thirty, stupid CPU. The first time I get, I guess, at a methyl cesspool to do floating point math for the with the two eighty six, that was the two eighty seven, but the three eighty six had had a math o processor as well. And IT was the beginning of intel, like the wind tol hegemony, right? So pat left. In two thousand and nine he joined a different company. And in the C O of V, M.

where in decade.

yeah. And then they brought him back in twenty twenty one to for for a second go round. Like when the board, when he pitched his his case for being the C E. O of intel, his strategy was we have to be good at making stuff, and we have to be to make stuff for everybody in the world.

So samsung, like we need to build a competitive infrastructure so that if samsung are in video or apple one a uh, want to buy an advanced process, no chip, we want them to be able to consider building IT on intel processes, not just tc processes. So anyway, uh, the second, which was, I think sunday, so rain, no, monday, as I was eating, as as I was eating six days old stuffing and poisoning myself. H pad a, the next two retiring.

And a in the in the times, twenty twenty one. Now there are a couple of things will talk about some of this later, but IT takes a long time to build new fabs and IT takes a long time to design new processes, and there are two different reasons that those things are hard. Will talk about him a little bit.

Yeah, can I look quick? I jump in. And when you say process, yeah, we were talking about A A process node in the sense of fabricating a chip. Not not the generic term of process, which is means a way of doing things, correct?

yes. So process in this chip design the state means building a node with with components of a specific size and that indicates the density that you can have no chips on the eye. So in the last thirty years we ve gone from lake micro meter sized um circuits to extra sized circuits or is a magical ude smaller.

Been in the nano media era for quite a while now. But I I guess antil is the one who would say we are moving into the extra error.

right? I mean, I think there I think there I think that there were intent, but whether and whether they actually are or not, it's intel built their entire business on being Better at drinking processes, getting smaller and smaller circuits faster than anybody else. And um that stop to mattering as much in the last few years and as in and that's why we seeing things like this aggregated chip designs where the computer stuff is on the really, really super advanced process and the the the kind of house keeping stuff that does memory control and all that stuff is on less expensive process nodes that they're not spending as .

much money building those chips. So I and not fabrication specially here, but the process, process isn't just transition ze IT all also includes like specific techniques. You know E U V photography is a term I have seen many times about. Some of the smaller process is like, you know, like there are different kinds of like a material science techniques to help them continue to shrink things smaller, smaller, right?

Yes, everything from how you make the make the silicon disks that start out, sometimes we're not even been using silicon as the substrates or sometimes just using in class now right to how the circuits are echoed onto the onto the semiconductor, how the semiconductor chips are attached to other chips inside inside the package. Um and IT is a phenomenally complicated topic um that you know there's well, there's a reason those two or three companies in the world that do the samsung and t sm c and intel and global founders ies are pretty much yet I mean.

like you get down to with the process of the process of shrinking processes is kind of a process of defining physics, right? Like you're constantly fighting with electricity yet tiny, tiny scales, and trying to prevent, I see you trying to and like signal drift or electrical drift across very, very tiny bits of metal.

right? So IT encompasses, IT encompasses material science. Because like how you how you build those those balls, you then slice the desk soft, and how you then treat the disks and how you like the machines, the manufacture turing that has to happen to build the machines, that can build the machines is incredibly complicated.

And and then of course, there's like inside of fab. You have to have no, you know, you have to have humans able to walk around without spreading in dedi and dead skin flakes and all the things that humans are just constantly slaughter off. So like IT is know, we talk about the space program and stuff like that as being miracles of modern science and going to the moon, but in reality, building A A processor that holds six billion circuit experience transistors on IT is is an incredible achievement on the same scale.

And we do that every eighteen months.

Size of the tiny yeah .

I feel it's it's worth talking about kind of what state until was in prior his return or at least from my perspective, I mean is a huge company with you know revenue streams are coming every which way. You know we mostly care about like this top in laptop processors and stuff, but are a tiny .

part of the market. The top is a tiny part of the market.

The tops are big are lined up in that time as sort of being an emblematic of where the process technology was.

right? yeah. So so there's multiple product lines. It's really complicated. It's kind beyond the scope of what we're talking about here today.

But but they had written, like I said for forty years, the shrinking process nodes that they were good at. And and with those shrinking processors, you get more, more compute power for less power consumption and higher clock speed. And you know they we went through errors, what we were doing really, really high clock speed on single thread machines.

And then we added two threats to those machines. And then we got out, started packing cars in as fast as we could. And we get to the point that intel was shipping twenty four core plus machines to consumers.

And um things were things things like I said, things were continue. Well, the the as we say A P C world, the bigger bars Better. The bars were capitated bigger on the benchmark charts. But power consumption was going up and and the market was changing around them. So ARM had taken off and was driving power consumption way down with comparable compute in a lot of cases.

And AMD had switched to these disagreed ted chip designs, where they had the computer in the memory controller, all the different bits and pieces that make a CPU a CPU on different chips that were package up under when he spreader and and they were losing that kind of performance dominance or they were having to do things like really juice coxe's and voltages to maintain their their performance dominant. Um we we I mean we've i've coordinated PC world in max PC before. That is joke for years.

You've never get fired for buying into l. But in a data center context where the the amount of computer you can pack in for the amount of cooling, you have an amount of wattage coming into the data center, meant that sometimes intel wasn't the right answer, often intel, I wasn't the right answer. And that was a place that they hit weren't accustomed to being and and as a result, their market there was decreasing and they were seeing AMD chipping.

But A, M D, really more in in video chipping away at their beauty. And also mean, I think we don't really like general to the eye stuff here. But the amount of computer they didn't have a product that was that was generating the same amount of compute as in video was capable of with their with their AI chips with bike well. And this time, they've been doing over there.

So yeah, yeah, I know. Obviously, I I i'm not like we have to market analysts or anything like that. My impression is that at least from the investor perspective, like they kind of they missed the boat on ARM, miss the boat on machine learning, like they miss the boat on data center two and extends. They got laptops, a laptop, something to do well.

But if IT was kind of that was kind of the position.

So um the other thing really just to touch on the dust, touch stuff. And like I said, the period right before he came back, I looked at up just now, skyline came out in twenty yeah and sky like I had one like I I mean what I remember of the friendship. But then you like five years of what people really looked at, the stagnation where the process kind stuck on. Same node was a fourteen anoma tre for a long time.

was fourteen and fourteen for a long time.

That was the period who named he was really down right before they kind of got right off the ground. And good IT .

was a tough period, right? Like the intel was shipping really reliable machines, but IT wasn't. We weren't seeing .

enormous performance gains. And remember, three years, IT was like a single digit performance increase from one until generation of the accident. Like our consumption, like you said, was just going up. IT was not a period of rapid technical innovation on their side.

no. And then and then you like a lot of people are asking the enthusiast unity is asking if the rapper lake, the thirteen fourteenth gene problems that they've had for enthusiasts cause this and it's absolutely not the kate like no one no one got fired because the thirteen and fourteenth gene head problems yeah I mean.

you know they did not help .

their brand eventide say that. But but it's it's like such a tiny size of the market like it's a size of the .

market that if they lost entirely, they wouldn't care about .

because IT only affected that really the enthusiasts CPU for the most part. So anyway, so in the second, he know intel put a released out that said he's retiring um he's um being replaced temporarily by David zinser or and Michelle l Johnson hothouse uh M J hothouse uh as co C E S uh and then uh health house is also the o the C E O of intel products now which I believed CPU like the the it's it's the things that they sell, not the things that they manufacturer um and like it's a it's a shocking announcement. There's no they didn't give a reason.

I have the I have the note open here um but they just said, hey c intel announced that see OPEC gal singer retired from the company after distinguish forty year plus career and a step down from the board of directors is effective december one, twenty twenty four which to me says it's like three or four reasons that C E O leave companies like this, right? One is that something something bad, wrong heth's SE. One is that the board doesn't have confidence.

The board, the investor, large group investors don't have confidence with in the many more. And the other is that a family member or something is something bad has happened and they they need to deal with personal stuff rather than rather than, you know, taken ninety hour, we job as a CEO of this beautiful illian company, right? So I hope it's I hope it's like this sounds bad. I hope this the board are some investors ran them off and he doesn't have health problems because he seems like an absolute like a pretty decent guide.

Yeah yeah. I mean, I don't know that the vote of no confidence seems like the likely scenario here based on how things have been going and based on the impatients of investors generally.

yeah. So we we we didn't we didn't talk the funeral this week. We had um we had somebody in from the from the arc group, the intel arc group to talk about arc scheduled for what it's was scheduled before this output was made.

How the G, P U. Team feels you are doing press for their new graphic c card.

In middle of this we asked and he gave the he gave a tom gave a very well trained answers um but but computers in tap intel tap is is how people know on twitter. He's very forthright about where they are with graphics and is IT IT was a good chat. It's worth watching if you want to go over to youtube that your podcasting or but um they they're not is it's it's it's it's unfortunate because it's kind of like if you're of sports team and your team sucks and you hire a new coach and the new coach does like you know higher like one two people and then has two seasons and then they don't they're not immediately winning all the games again in a um because they're not winners after two years like IT takes time to turn a ship around and on a on a ship on a business like building fabs and building CPU where the timeline on a CPU is five years plus from like the first implementation decisions to taping out to shipping a processor like he's been there for three years in change.

Have an exact quote in the business Price or business world like like he they brought him in with a five year turnaround plan and then they tossed him after listen four yeah .

the the like lunar lake which shipped this year and is a fabulous mobile part area like which just ship to public school and is light up and down. But you know whatever, it's fine. It's it's good for a red one of a new of a new architecture like those were both already in process when glaser was hired.

They had to have been I mean, correct me if i'm intel employees who listen to the broadcast um so yeah IT feels like there if they made a no confidence vote, it's because like investors can't wait for the the time tax fab so we can just jump jump to IT. The fab situation is such that IT takes a really long time to build fabs s prety. Much everywhere in the world.

I think I found a report that says the worldwide average, a worldwide average for the six hundred fabs built between one thousand nine hundred and ninety and twenty twenty, the average time IT takes to build from breaking ground, the first chips rolling office six hundred eighty two days in china, is a little bit more than that. In taiwan and south korea, a little bit less than that. The U.

S. Average was seven hundred and thirty six days for the forty forty something fabs were built. The U.

S. During that time period. S take less time because they are more known quantities.

That so that is the other thing is, the other is two kind of different types of babs. One is Normal and others are advanced. Normal are building things like e proms and memory and S D fish memory and all the things that like well established.

They're not novel processes. They're not a we're we're just building chips here. We're not due in rocket science, right? The advanced fabs are doing new processes and doing new technologies, and they're inventing stuff to get to the point that they can do the manufacturing. You intel talks about their fab goals years and years in advance. Um the five the five five nodes in four years I was get that backwards, think it's five nodes in four years.

Like they talked about the things that they had to invent and the things that they are here they had invented, and they bought companies like foo s to to help accelerate that stuff because they they knew that they need packaging technologies and three 3h chip assembly technologies and all sorts of this crazy stuff。 Just they're not buying IT off the shelf. They're inventing IT as they go.

And that takes time. So anyway, IT feels IT feels like IT feels like this happened really fast if they if they're kicking him out for non performance. Now they did cancelled the twenty a processor earlier this year, which was one of those five nodes in four years.

Um IT seems like IT was probe like the spin that they put on IT and that most of the analyst I follow and listen to seemed to buy is that they cancelled IT because A T A which is the the long term like twenty eight was kind of interm node for them to build as U S. based. They're doing IT nails on to some place.

And um IT seemed like IT was an interview process that then would be suppleness this a node and the A T A process seems like it's coming along faster than than they expected. Um they hit some yield goals. Earlier this year, well in advance of the time they expected to. And it's in a time when the company is cash trapped because their products aren't selling as much as they have in the past and they're not seeing the growth that they expect on the products that they do have. They relocated the cash to the process where it's going to have the most impact for the longest time rather than pizz away a half a billion dollars spinning up twenty eight only for you to go away and .

like five years yeah like trying to find a date on this road. Now, this world maps lide of theirs. I just pulled up because when when you're laid out that way is like you sure until you cancelled your awesome process because your awesome processes even more, what you know what I mean, it's yeah a likely story.

But um this world map slide shows the s be uh half half in the same year. So they actually were plan to be actually on top of each other. So maybe that cancellation doesn't make sense.

yes. So so um it's like error. Lake was supposed to be a twenty eight process and then i'm sure that this was like a tiger garden insurance versus recall versus not recall formula where somebody at intel l was like, look, it's going to cost us half a billion dollars to spend up twenty eight or we can pay not half a billion dollars to tmc to many of actual all these area like tips that we're going to sell. And the decision was pretty easy probably in when they really when they reach that point .

yeah um have if we said and we may probably address this like the the long term point of spending on these fans processes to become a volume manufacturer of of their own ships and other people's PS.

right? Yeah, that's that's the goals they want to make. Rent remain the primary customer for their fabric, but they also want to be able to service other large customers like apple and samsung and and NVIDIA and AMD and every like like theoretically, they want to build .

chips for anybody. Don't want high and chips, mate me like I on semiconductor manufacturing, like for example, reading about A M D processors or something, you will constantly see references too. Like, oh, they put IT on so so process because apple is hugging all of the capacity on the three anomie or you know in video has got a gigantic order in like there is massive competition for T, S, M output.

There's infinite there's infinite need and and demand for the that those businesses right now. And um at the same time, like it's a scary it's not this is it's often pitches a hey america, we do our manufacturing here thing but it's terrifying that sixty percent of all the chips in the world are made in taiwan, which is a ring of its on the ring of fire.

It's in a is area where a six plus earthquakes, like Richard d scale six earthquakes are not uncommon. Like we've it's not a good place to have such an enormous amount of crucial manufacturing without even in factory in the geopolitical situation with china and taiwan that is constantly a an issue, right? So um so yeah so the the the idea that it's hey, we got to build this in america, yes, that's true.

The I think the first design wins that until announced for eighteen A R department of defense chips so that we're not buying stuff in fighter jets and missiles from china, I believe is the idea but at the same time, it's scary to have an enormous amount of this incredibly vital resource manufactured in a place it's tenuous so um so yeah anyway uh how how um I guess I guess it's kind of IT right like currently, what's gona change? The David zinder gave some quotes the day after that this announcement to happen. That said, basically the core strategy remains intact, which to me says rebuild manufacturing excell. Oh, here here's the quote. Core strategy references glsen ers goals to rebuild intel's manufacturing excEllence and become a leader in contract ship manufacturing to complete with tc, which means five notes in four years is intact except let's not talk about twenty eight.

right? I mean, like I saw the people saying, like, you know or they can save the course even though he's gone or legally sell IT off for part some week, how big investment must they have made already? This is like like the idea of just cutting bid on this and washing the whole initiative basically seems company down.

right? Well, I mean, conversation is more. Is someone else gone to buy one, one or one or some parts of the intel business because they split off the as my understand, they split the baLance shaft for the boundaries and for the chip design and sales businesses you in the last three years sometime.

And so theoretically, that means they could sell off the foundry business to somebody who wants founders ies. sure. But right now, there's not a whole lot to bike.

Have just they have these factories that haven't produced anything yet mean, okay, that's not fair. They have factories that to produce the whole shit little chips over the years. But the really interesting ones with the new processes they haven't did not producing really is the chips coming up. Vg a now, but not in volume is like .

IT would be hard to get rid of. The whole thing really isn't even really proven that. Yes, I just worked up the m cub just said IT IT does not mean what I is .

not a fishing thing.

IT is a fishing thing, but it's IT does not mean .

like cut lose I cut line.

that was my assumption is the problem applying interpretation to old atom?

Is that is this about just like instead of using live bee, you just cut up a dead fish on put on your hook.

oh, you know, actually may be either proceed with an activity or abandoned completely? Is description of you and me that's maybe that's more correct than I thought?

Okay yeah I like I don't think they are going to. I would be shocked if they cut back. Um I I think like the problem with building fabs in the us.

Is that there are an any there is an analyst report that that broke this dowery clearly in a way that I hadn't seen before. They said there's seven critical requirements. You need a lot of land.

You need low seismic activity. You need a stable water supply, you need reliable electricity, you need people, you need infrastructure and closest to suppliers. And the we have all of those things in the united states in different places.

Um the material supply like the closed to suppliers is interesting because it's it's really terrifying supplies. It's like, hey, where you get thousands of gallons of hydro floria acid a day, this is everything to have to hall around. Sure um but but also you have to have people who can manufacture the balls and manufactured the waves you're going used to cut the chips out of. And and I think often at the high level for the advanced BBS, they are probably doing this stop on site. They're are not buying bulls off of ove the bull mars.

not getting a bundle from .

all expressed, yes, yeah.

they have a guy in change. Yes, I want to how the water is used in the process.

I'm sure I could look that up. They absorb an incredible amount of water for washing and cleaning and cooling and all the things that they do with water. Yeah, okay, which which is the other thing that holds them up in the U.

S, which is the regulation stuff. So because we're federated group of states, instead of having one set of rules for the entire country, like you have encouraged a bore taiwan, we have fifty states with fifty sets of rules. They're all little different.

It's chAllenging. We have the federal apa and the state pa, which all have different regulatory requirements for, you know, things like how you handle how do you how? What's the rule for putting hydro forecast that would eat the pavement?

Uh, out underneath the truck should IT spill on a truck and cry ground. I bet you can't put that on a truck. I don't know.

We should ask you brought in that because he would know the answer to that and then he's going to laugh at us until us not to mess with liquids that will declare fy your bones. It's yeah it's a weird time for IT. Intel is the T L, D R. And I I hope that's okay.

Um yeah, I lish I was blish about the whole thing I want to buy too much into like personal ethology. But knowing that he is an old school, a simply programme, r chip designer, no engineer who came up through the glory days of intel was seem promising. No IT was there was there was something that felt easy to rally around, especially, especially as you see them talking about trying to put the back to manufacturing excEllence and their whole core business back on track seemed exciting because just like he was exciting to see M D come back a few years ago with a rising and becomes so strong. And look at the innovation, that is an competition that is driven like you want until to be equally strong.

Lisa, who has been kicking accident at A M. D. For a long time now, and IT was fun to see pt come in as somebody who used to make things versus being like a guy that was good at selling soap yeah and .

you know these are fairly minor examples, but as AMD has got ten stronger, you've seen until react like Prices got Better, this is a pretty minor, each example that only I care about on some other server nerds. But like they started putting E, C, C memory support back in the low end processors again, because for years they just have that arbitrarily disabled to make you go by a very expensive they on .

because they could look, they started putting enough PCI express lanes in their CPU. Again, right? Like this, the products have become Better. You look at what happened. I look at what have with mobile, with the with the copilot lus pcs that just launched. We on these three chip makers, qualcomm and intel, an AMD were releasing made laptop specifically for this new kind of not really a spec, but it's kind of aspect that, that microsoft came up with.

And the result is you have three wildly different products that can also serve the same niche, but they have different strains and weaknesses like the AMD ones are really good at compute and and a little heavy, little heavy are lifting than the entel ones. But the battery life isn't quite as good, right the the until ones have incredible battery life in great compute. But but but they aren't quite as fast in the raw benchmark says as the amid stuff is.

And then cocom is really weird because like IT doesn't run a lot of software and maybe don't buy the calm ones, but they're great for corporate fleets because the corporate fleets actually want computers that won't run a bunch of software, just want computers that will run the software that they want and nothing else. So yeah anyway, computers that we have been. They're complicated and hard and and they're interesting to talk about again. So yes.

one one of the quick aside, I want to mention about um on the object of T S M C and all their manufacturing capacity being concentrated on the small island that is under multiple types of threat at times. Yeah they they have also been expanding into the united states. They have opened.

And I only know that I only know that because there there was a big report about culture clash. One of their new fabric facilities in the united states is one in chanler. I don't know how many do they have actually.

but they were posed up in one minnesota, but I think that was just a fake thing from .

the previous administrations. Ona, I think probably big. I am not sure which facility was, but there was a big report a year two ago about clashes and culture between the local american eloy es and the manager taiwan. And you can go through the report.

Tms, in in aza. yeah.

And the point is that even they are expanding their own Operation to other continents.

IT makes sense, like why not? And also, there are rules now about buying tips from other country for department and stuff, which say, human, an enormous amount of.

I don't even into the chips act that was passed under the ministration that had something like .

three billion and eight large .

amounts of money coming from the government to a to help if these facilities .

open running as well. yes. So um and and for what it's worth, that has been a little slower than expected in some cases, like samsung pulled out of a thing specifically because the payments were taking too long to come. Um so anyway, yeah it's because best wishes to pat and I hope that the new folks do a job because it's important having until around to be compact. Competition is is important and good yes.

for sure. They spent a rober seeing some gnadeck ating about their demise after the news came out like, I mean, that's probably premature and ho bolic, but just thinking about the history, mental and know what we grew up with and what symbolized computing generally for so long. Like I would be really, really sad if something like that work to come to best.

I mean, it's unusual for multi billion dollar companies to disappear.

But going, but still idea I D think.

yeah, yeah. Speaking of things disappearing, that is sad to even think about. Actually, I don't know if I have like, I don't have strong feelings about this.

What I don't think anymore, much like the example just give you like I kind of do for what IT symbolizes yeah, it's not the application itself so much they killed word pad yeah so they came from the suggestions channel on the discord. Somebody I think they might have been half joking, but never joke in the episode. Suggestions, no, we love a good joke.

Suggestion, we are, we are prone to take you deadly seriously. Ethnic theme, actually wanted to hear about IT. They have deprecated word pad.

This was fortune, by the way, we suggested this one. Yes.

I guess IT was sometime for twenty twenty three that they announced microsoft announced the path would be going away. Yeah, but apparently is just as they roll out of twenty four age two, the most recent major update to windows eleven that they straight up have yanked. I believe we have verified that work pad no longer exists on your machines.

I correct. So i'm running twenty four eight two right now OK. I'm going to check.

I'm going to do a live test year. Uh, let's see system twenty four age two. Yep, that confirmed start on eleven twenty two, twenty twenty four.

I hit the start key. I'm typing word pad. I'm getting web results. I had word pad to E, X, C for a minute. There they will go.

will try IT down and run and manually. No.

IT is a word pad dot E X. If I type word pad D X C, IT opens. Its still here is microsoft of lies. Okay, well, we have cancelled the rest pocket. Well, okay, but at home on i'm getting getting the circle IT says it's not responding.

Oh, always you can't actually run IT then .

IT seems like I can't .

actually run IT. Oh k what is? Is that some kind of weird like stub executable that they I shoved in there .

or something I don't know.

And this is really weird.

That's odd. IT has a window there. IT looks like word pad says document, word pad not responding and then it's crashing. So maybe they just broke IT and and they were like, he, what if we go back and post date a thing from last year in september, be like b and we're going rid of this with twenty twenty, with twenty twenty four, it's gonna gone because somebody broke word pad.

That's my theory. That's the risk of deplorable often are you could break at any time. yes. So apparently if i'm reading this correctly on media that I saw ve this i'm looking for, apparently they stopped shipping word pad in new installations. When does eleven at the beginning of this year or but now they're actively disabled ling IT. So I still have IT existing installs or at least they say they are.

So it's working for me.

I don't. I'm sorry. Here is on wiki. D, S, in january, word pad was no longer auto installed after a clean installation of the O, S, O.

but it's still in my program files. X eighty six slash windows N T slash .

accessories folder, including the topic .

then no find, I mean fit fun to talk about .

old software like this. And like like I said, like I I don't have a ton of affection for word pad like kind of a little bit, but is also just makes me think back to the early days of windows nine five and how exciting all that was.

Well, I I was going to say, like, so word pad was windows any five at her stress was introduced in five.

but IT replaced.

right, which was there kind of like jv word processor that was bundled before. That was actually the .

biggest trip of reading a bit about that for this was remembering the existence of microsoft, right? Yes, because never really weird you out how certain pieces of information can be embedded in your brain .

and not access for literal aces. Pea pen is blue.

I haven't thought about microsoft right to since the nineties, but I used that point. One of three. One, yeah, me too. And for some reason, just completely for about us, that that just a test to the excEllence of word pad. You completely forget, right once I came along.

So for a long time, for me, word pad was the thing that I used. If I needed to open a linux file and didn't have, like no pad plus plus or some something that understand, understood line endings, linux line endings.

right? More different cases was open docs. If I ever aimed possession of a dark file.

that's all I had to open up. Yeah, I mean, I can see that. So so to me, the story of word pad is the like then removing this is them saying, hey, man, we don't need to bundle .

in a word processor anymore.

Like if you think about IT adding right in with windows, early versions of windows was kind of a weird flex saying, hey, we're going to ship the O S. With the thing that you used to just use. Like for a lot of people in the eighties and early nineties, the IT was a word processor or was a spratt sheet or IT was a database.

But IT wasn't all of those things. IT was just one of the time, right? Because you couldn't there was no multi tasking in dos. And and the hate we're going to put a word processor in here, that's that's gna do what ninety percent of you need without buying anything else is is a weird thought and that we've reach a point where they like now you just go to the website and use the life three sixty five web version if you need, if you need a word processor now is feels weird.

but that does the sign of the times. Right, will get back to work. But right, Operated on. Remember the dot W R. file?

Oh yeah, they were all binary and weird if you open to be no pad by accident.

Yes, I looks like by as of one of three point. Oh, so by the time I we had a computer in my family, right, can also open docks files. Oh, it's interesting.

And then later became, this is a little aside here. I feel embarrass student with this. I have always, my head since I was .

a teenager.

pronounce this OLAY. Oh, up. Those were like, but I believe that I never really know exactly what I did.

And also, again, anybody listening? Who knows what that was from early windows? How did you actually say that? Because my I did.

You let you drag on drop as yeah yes, I think I .

think IT may have been some kind of like programme and interval thing, if i'm not mistaken. Well, here we go. Technology develop microsoft. IT allows in bedding and linking two documents and other object.

Oh, o IT was the predecessor shortcuts then .

kind of well within documents. That sounds like IT a family with the acronym O C X. No, that also sounds really familiar to me. The O L E control extension.

Oh yes, of course, one hundred percent, I use that all the time, still know.

was an evolution of the original D, D E, or dynamic .

to exchange I D E was important IT.

yeah.

If your D D got jacked up and you couldn't open photoshop files, I think in windows three point out. interesting.

I think I apologized for going through record hill here. But like this, this is bringing back a lot of memories that like thirteen to fourteen year old me was fascinated by I if I didn't quite understand them all.

It's funny to think about because IT prior to windows twenty five, dragon and drop was really sort right, right. Like you you could copy and paste kind of I think between like simple kind of text formats. You do like text or I know I guess if you had an image tor, you could copy from an image to another image. But probably you are just copying from like one photoshop window to another one. And being able to drag and drop a document .

to another document was an unusual thing to handle. Two between them in general.

We depend on the computer I think had at one of my workplaces we had a penny um sixty that ran, when does three point one because of hard work compatibility stuff well actually .

I I mean less for a horsepower reasons or performance and more just and face is on like keeping what I mean is like, oh, managing a mutio windows on screen at once. Program manager was just not grade for .

hand stuff like that. Yes, especially IT likes on six forty five, four, six hundred. Whatever was back that was actually .

like kind of goes to why a big part of windows was so exciting was because I brought. Actual, real test top metaphor to two pcs, let's track and had forever, right?

He gave me a place to put my crap as right.

right? You have a thing that you minimize, zed, the windows to you and could maximize, restore them, add wheel, just by clicking them.

We could do that before.

but IT wasn't going. But who whoever ran program manager not maximized.

And I I can't remember when was IT, when was IT that you could look at the window contents as you were resizing in moving that. I feel that was like the windows three point one thing.

think three point one ever had that is that one ninety five even had. That was about ninety eight thing we do show, show content while dragging, I think, was general the way that .

was described here. Windows, windows three, you see an outline of the window when you .

were dragged around.

if I remember right? Anyway, IT IT was a weird. Computers were weird.

We have a right, anyway, right. As I said, the protect pad open right files and dog files in addition, attack, although you have the venerable no pad open text file.

Well, know other thing that that word well made me not right. But other thing that word pad could do was IT would load no pad in the old days, if your file was too big and you had to page .

out of memory, would not run very well. Oh, that was not even .

in true modern video. With tabs of no pad came out, I feel.

until like the windows eights.

no, I think IT was windows ten. I don't think we ve got tabbed no pad until fairly recently.

tab no pad was only eleven I believe I mean, as I believe up through one as was still that original no pair that would oh yes, sees up if you opened like a five megabit text file or something yeah, that's rain. Yes, so so no. As as we said, they discontinued right and they use world pad and one is nine five uh IT can open rich text R T, F and docker iles right off the .

bed and with words six docker iles the .

best word and I guess some I I am not .

used to be excited about new versions of word yeah in the .

course of talking about doing this little topic lit, the idea of doing a whole work process or episode came up but not sure if such a good idea or not yeah.

It's it's funny because they used to be there's a thing that happened where they would the software got Better all the time because they made new versions all the time. And you'd get like you may not like all the new features, but there was always something in there. I I remember that they added the red quickly underlying on near my spelled words in word. That was a big deal. Like then that man, I stopped misspelling stuff in in word documents.

Real time dynamic spell check is not a thing that used to happen. Check was the thing you went up to the mean you and ran when you were done.

I A look when that happened that was exciting to the first versions are, were perfect. I used, didn't have that even.

So what was, what was your very first one process?

Or that you remember I had exposure the word star because we had a computer that was a hand me down from somebody that had word star installed on IT.

And that was a powny ful that that was the actual first software work processor, as I correct.

I believe that was the first one on a personal computer at least. Okay, but I I don't I haven't done any research about that. I don't know.

Was me seventy I used for the.

Used words start and I, B, M P, C, A T clone problem. That was a two eighty six eight with that, or an eighty eight.

maybe seventy eight forty. Safe to say that was probably damn near the first software or processor about me.

I think that there were software word processors on mainframe machines, but I don't think they were on computers, yes, and they were definitely very personal computers. There were definitely mini computers, like there was a way ying mini computer that had a full last word processor on IT that ran on like a shared terminal machine would like five hok cus to or something. Um I I did live with one of those. I used one of those and I worked for the congressman and he still had that that .

enormous wing you put that is the .

title going to be my congress walls congressmen's enormous way, please say no. Um IT was the size IT was way IT made the case that you have your machine look really small IT was like three of those. Oh, really IT was huge. I always .

understood the term mini computer to be the like for refrigerator size, not the run size, but the ah stand, stand up six for all.

So this one was a sixteen top. This one was probably four feet by, four feet by IT was like a cuba. wow.

Congress people had future like that in their offices.

Well OK. So my congress when I work there was r years. So he he had invested once and was never buying another computer OK. Um his look for this, he had secretary still he didn't have like legislative assistance. And the secretaries that worked there had IBM. I think they were called selective ics that were type writers that you turn the nob and program a letter into them and they could crank out the letters with those. But for things that were more complicated or needed more form letters, they made the interns type letters on the wing.

Oh, i'm seeing, i'm sure you don't remember this model number was not A V S. Eighty four hundred. By chance. There was something four hundred that is a very large computer about like .

what you have spread. Yeah, I was. I don't like if something happened to the wing, a guy had to come IT .

wasn't like you could just IT.

Say sorry .

ah sorry anyway or processors, right? I we don't need to get too far down this road, but I think he was a dose version word perfect is the first or process are I spent any real time on because the high school had a small lab of two eighty sixes. IT was perfect service.

able, let me tell you, going in one thousand, ninety three or one thousand and ninety four and having to work on that breaking terminal based microcomputer when you had used windows three point one, two point o at that point, like traveling .

back in time and he was a terminal or released on A C R T, right?

Not a tell type. Yeah, was was a terminal, but I was like a Green three twenty by two forty .

vx kind of display time.

Yeah, yeah. It's a .

lot I go back over the line comment. I like I still to this day, honestly, i've run into that occasionally as I go back and forth between linux s of B S D and the windows all the time, but I still don't exactly know what form of those different line and things take. I know that they show up as like Carry capital in in the wrong text editor. A lot of done this dot line line endings and like unique sine index red.

yes. So the reason that happens is that a dose and unix use different characters to demote a new line. Okay, so unix um I think displaced them .

a flash and .

and windows .

does the for sure yes.

So if you open a unix file on windows in the old days you'd see the the sash and and I would you have be all online when you converted IT to same thing. Worse, if you who saved IT in windows and open on linux, and you have sash ends at the sash hs at the end of all your lines when the size and got cut off to be the new line right these days, we'd all just use text editors that handle this without us something to think about IT. And it's not a problem anymore. Well, so be no pad s plus.

which is handles IT really, really quick. APP search does two unique.

That's the other thing is there's there's .

a tool on the unique and unique two dots are, are, are fun. Little is to .

convert, no bad posture .

and dance, modern no pad and a number .

of other or alternately, you can shelter into the terminal on your linux machine when you need to edit a text file and just, oh, you do with the same person would do in an open and nano.

Sorry, I am.

I .

don't want to talk .

you about it's so .

great.

We're here to talk about word pad. Not you're weird, your weird vm perversion.

I've been writing dr composed yffim like really i'm awesome when you get your head .

around my god, i'm god that IT works .

for you and so can do so much so fast.

This is a podcast of no judgement, but i'm being very chAllenged right now.

You want do you want to add a specific set of characters to the end of every line from range .

that i've wanted to?

Regardless of hell long?

Each line is never been a problem, right? I just, I just want to move my curse and type the words. Sometimes I want to copy and paste.

You want to to do all of that model? Nope, never wanted model anything. I am the least model person. Like the only model I want to know is about the model notes.

Baby, there I don't know. We've talked a about this is how much more to say um I will say P C world actually ran little story that i'll put in the show notes about how to get word back if you really, really want IT. Oh no, yeah, no longer has IT.

The solution is to go harvest. The excuse for me, when does eleven? Is all this still has IT? Yeah, that makes sense. There's a couple of a specific D, L, L and a filter of localization files along with IT to make a run right.

Mean, look at this point. There's Better options for the word head. I think I well.

yes, but I also love the theory, the hypothetical person who cannot live without water pad and has to go out and down a copy of IT I mean .

I think it's funny is like this stuff I would have used word pad for back in the day. I probably use something like join for now which um I said IT save job I was talking about a job in a couple and I said its saved his files and markdown IT doesn't IT looks support your entire library and markdown IT doesn't saves IT in reason anyway.

But like there are text editors that just work and mark down now, and you can just point them at a folder on your hard drive and IT, it'll work like a giant database of your text self. Yes, I be good. Or just use google dogs or live office office life on the web.

Well, hey, archive at work has your back, as here is a positing of word pad. Just in case you know what, google dogs might go away someday or pad or pad never will.

Our pad is forever. I I got to say I love I love the um the the the way new new pad works where the tabs are persistent when you open up bad, your old tabs are still there.

Yeah I I think I love IT to I use IT. I certainly use that. I have like five open tabs and no pad every time I open IT. But that is kind of a final IT is IT does feel like IT encourages bad habits. We definitely .

encourage his bad habits.

Yeah you should you and by you and me, like I should save the files out to actual files .

of with anything important.

Save yeah I say no. I i've got like unsaved oh no.

no I said there were no head plus plus and then one day the bad thing happened and I didn't open the files and then I was like.

oh no, never in that again about .

a bunch of press keys for the any crisis to people that I got the keys were already activated but because I didn't say the file.

I did not be fair none of my unsafe tab that important yeah um I think I were quick in the course of looking up board bed yes did you know that there .

is a microsoft f dom wicky like fan, like microsoft dot fandom.

dot cos? Yes, like capital FM microsoft dot fade diamant. Like I I thought film was reserved for, like, you know, enemy and table top and things of that nature. This is video .

games bread.

There is a wiki, there is a fan, Vicky, for microsoft .

that's kind of amazing. Do they have like a gym?

Alt pages on there is actually pretty good because you can see the boot up screens from, like all the beat of windows. Oh my god.

they have a .

gym watchin page.

Know that he was the architect on vista. Oh, okay. yeah. He retired in early two thousand and seven were, oddly coincidentally, right after VISA shift. weird.

But I can see all the boot screens .

for various versions of chicago here.

Oh, man, which chicago was? X, P. Chicago was one.

nine, five. I was the code name for a one. Yeah, this is, this is gona destroyed me. Thank you for sharing this. appreciated.

Yes, there is a lot of stuff on here.

Um I had no idea that they had up windom like this is this is just conceptual, very, very strange to me bread and I go i'll look at those windows three point one desktop that is some hot business right there. You see the print manager. This is the good stuff.

The Cherry is you can walk down memory lane. okay? Also I just buy goole picture of jm ultra, and I think he did an interview on you two like a year or two ago that I really need to watch in dave's garage.

Yes, that's good tie to dave. I don't know. okay. Mean, you mean the guy who wrote everything went so ever?

Look, dave, dave is great. I like dave gross.

I believe that I I believe he did write quite a bit of that off.

I I knowing what I know now about how things actually work in the real world, I have no doubt in my mind, but some, there's a hand, a very small number of people who contributed an enormous amount of code. No, yeah, early early computing that is still lingering.

I don't doubt him and I have no evidence that he didn't write any that stuff. I just IT was in my algorithm so much for a while that I relieved the lake.

How graham knows brad, they know what you crave.

I guess so. But anyway, I have seen some clipsed of that ultor interview that he did. I think I think that was him. That might be somebody else actually.

J jim, I I got to talk to games couple times for, uh, different stuff. He was, he was one of the a, he was of the state shooter variety who then accidently made via had to have a like but IT was.

I got that for me. Yeah, I can see that. I will say whoever this interview was, I think there were references ces to like I S two and cynics, which was microsoft version of unique, of fun, of the system stuff in there. We should do that sort about inx sometime. So I can talk how much about how I wish, as I had one, instead of dos, and how different computing world would be.

We would have been a different world. yes. So he was on this crush.

Okay, yeah, yeah. Oh, wait, hoon. P.

I apologize. He talked to dave callers who you're thinking about. That's the one it's confusing because David god is run by day plumber who wrote test manager and he they ve y've cutler uh just doesn't talk to press at all oh but um he he basically wrote a bud load of software. Oh, he was the .

architect of windows in tea yeah, that's what he was. That's what he was talking about. And there is that they I think that was the clip I saw was that there was a point where they were not sure what the next generation of microsoft thorning system. And then what does three point one blew up out of nowhere and then they're like, okay, because this one is then that's when they started the N T.

project. Yeah that said, it's a three hour interview to worth it's worth watching anyway. It's it's nice because it's like the guys that made this whole thing happen. Ah you're you're hearing the stories now because they can talk about them because they're not afraid to bill gates that can come to their house and break their yes, they never pay outs already so are probably OK right? And they all have replacement needs now.

So they are probably find, you know anyway, on that note, uh, the part cast thing is come to a close yeah and this is the time when I remind you all that this is a listener supported so we wouldn't be here without you, the listener. If you would like to find out how to support the show, you can go to patrons on that consider tech board. Wear for five bucks, you get to access to our monthly episodes are monthly patron's exclusive.

As we often talk about the projects that are going on kind of in the background that mayor may not become eventual episodes is a place for us to talk about what's front of mind. Um and and we have a quite a bit of fun there, but you also get access to the discord, which is full of beautiful nerds just like you. It's a great place.

Ask questions and to chat about things you love and you're interested and you're curious about. And and I everybody like we have we have a pretty a viBrant community in there that I think we are always, always, always welcoming to folks and we should it's a fun place IT. IT is I mean inclusive.

Ity is our byword. So you you can find out about that by going to patron that come. But it's five weeks a month and IT helps keep doing the show.

which we know if I was like, hey, honey.

I got to spend all this time every week reading about stuff for the podcast and I did any money off that he would have pretty strong feelings rily. So um so anyway, this is the part of show where we think our patrons, thank you patrons.

thank you patrons.

but especially our executive producer to your patrons s including Andrews, lucky co, Jordan, lipid, bunnie, twinkle, twinkle, David Allen, James cammack and pant the on makers of the H S three high speed pretty prester. I also should remind people that, uh, you can do gift patro on snow. no.

So if you have a friend who you think we would enjoy being the community, you don't know how to do IT. H IT is on the discount. We can explain IT, but you can buy a gift subscription to the podcast, to the patron for a year and invite people that you like and think would would be good contributors into our into our little into the community.

which is awesome if the gift that .

keeps on giving yeah, access to great. Yeah, sounds bad when you say that way. Js, uh, well, i'm i'm going to get on a plane tomorrow.

Go see a swift. I am excited.

I got a lot of really lovely recommendations and invitations from folks last week, and I I appreciate all that. We are sadly just in vancouver for like two nights because they jacked up the Price on the who's to tailor sweet levels um but maybe next time so thanks everybody for the for the invites in the suggestions. If anybody has a roman place, they like hit me up that i'd love to know because I can promise the kid of some good roman.

But that'll do a press this. We will be back next week with another episode and maybe a report on what Taylors like, I don't know, just do an episode about tailor swift show. I've watched a lot of tailor swift shows on tiktok over the last year because, well, because my wife has watched a lot of tiktok shows. Anyway, i'm excited .

to see forward.

We will see all next week. Thanks for everybody. You have a lovely week.