The Real Impact of AI Overviews on Traffic - DTNSB 4993
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See if you qualify at oracle.com slash tech headlines. This is the Daily Tech News for Tuesday, April 8th, 2025. We tell you what you need to know, follow up on the context of those stories, and help each other understand. Oh, hi, Jason Howell. Oh, hi. Hello, welcome back. Thank you. Today, Sean Hollister tells us about using Google Translate in Japan. That's where I was. And we hear from you. We've got a little Discord conversation to talk about.

Excellent. I am Jason Howell. Me, I'm Tom Merritt. And we're going to start with what you need to know with a big story. ♪

Bloomberg has a story today that shows how Google's AI overviews, not just AI overviews, but also changes to its search algorithm have significantly impacted independent website publishers. According to the 25 publishers that Bloomberg talked to, traffic has decreased dramatically to the tune of upwards of around 70% for some of these sites.

which has led to, of course, lost revenue, also a forced shift in strategy in order for those websites to effectively monetize through things like ads and product sales. Many sites, in fact, have shut down operations in the wake of these changes. And of course, AI overviews is consistently kind of pointed to as a big part of the reason why AI overviews first began appearing in Google search. I think it was a little more than one year ago at this point.

At the time, I remember Google had stated that the new AI feature resulted in more clicks than traditional search results. Also saying that the traffic that they were sending to websites was higher quality traffic. You know, it was people who were so completely concerned with getting, you know, the proper information and getting it right and wanted to dig deeper that that traffic was actually better for websites.

If it actually made it there at all. Google also recently released its AI mode. And there is a new update to AI mode in search, a custom version of Gemini that now includes multimodality. So image recognition, adding context in your queries around images, that sort of stuff. Google sees this as a way to continue to hold its place as a primary destination for interacting with the Web and

uh, with Google positioning. This is a, as you know, the, the way to find what you're looking for. And we're so used to the blue links, any change to the blue link strategy is sure to ruffle feathers. But I think this article just reading through is kind of like Google has been saying one thing about AI overviews for a long time. And, you know, articles like these seem to point to an alternate reality, excuse me,

Where websites feel like this has not been a net positive for traffic to their sites, and it's really impacting their business as a result. Yeah, I always try to reset my perspective with stuff like this. Bloomberg does a great job, and I'm not going to try to throw Bloomberg under the bus, but this is not a scientific study. It's not raw data. No, not at all. Bloomberg went looking for companies who wanted to comment on this, and you have to remember that the companies that want to comment on this are likely to be the ones that lost traffic.

That's true.

I'm looking forward to some more substantive studies of what that effect is going to be. I think there's two things to keep in mind. One is that if you're worried about Google, which I know most of you aren't, but if you're worried about Google, I

Don't forget YouTube. There's also stories in the past week about how YouTube is seeing record ad revenue. YouTube is getting more uptake in the television. There's headlines like YouTube is the new TV. And when I say in television, I mean on your television, not just on your laptop, your phone, your PC. So I don't know that people...

remember to include that when they talk about Google's ad future. Google's ad future probably is in video. I think people overestimate how much advertising drop is going to happen on search because people will still use search. But I think it's reasonable to expect a certain amount of drop there. On the other hand,

Remember that the usage of the internet is not going to go down, right? So it's – to my mind, it's how people are directed to the various parts of the internet that is changing. And these sites that are in the Bloomberg story are the ones who are being affected most by the changes now. But there are probably –

places that are seeing more traffic right now, and we're not hearing about those. And I'm very curious why that would be happening where it's happening as well. Like where are people who are seeing increases in traffic getting that increased traffic from? Is it from AI overviews, which is what Google would like us to believe, or is it from something else? And I'd be really curious what that something else would be.

Yeah, it's interesting that you mentioned how people are getting to these places, because that's really, that's the question that is, has been on my mind through this as well. And actually, just had last Friday had an interview on one of my other podcasts, AI Inside with Jeff Jarvis, and I co-host that. We spoke with Jan LeCun, who is basically like the head honcho at AI. He's the chief AI scientist at Meta.

And we talked with him about a whole bunch of things. That interview is going to hit the show tomorrow. But he did say something that had to do with Google and its current state with search and AI. And I thought it was really related to this. So why don't we roll that clip? Most of our interactions with the digital world will be mediated by AI systems. Okay. And that's why, you know, Google is a little frantic right now because they...

They know that nobody is going to go to a search engine anymore, right? You're just going to talk to your AI assistant. So they're trying to experiment with this, you know, within Google. And ultimately, I think what Jan is saying here really ties in with what you were saying just a few moments ago, Tom, which is that how are people getting to this and how is Google emphasizing or reinforcing this kind of new method of finding the information that we're looking for? It used to be...

went to the Google search site and you plugged in a search and based on a number of different, you know, factors and triggers, it pointed you to the highest quality thing. Now, as Jan, you know, mentions in that clip, we're entering kind of a new paradigm where these assistants are really directing a lot of that traffic and

And Google's in a position, at least according to Jan, where it is really trying to kind of like find itself in this new reality. It was used, it like a lot of websites, was used to the way things were. And now things have shifted a lot. And Google has to kind of play within that realm. But-

What does that mean for the small publishers, the small websites versus the bigger ones? You know, there is a I don't know. There is at least a perception of a little bit of like a pay to play sort of thing. Like the higher quality stuff only comes from the people who have the money to make sure that the the the AI overviews points to them and not the little guys. Yeah.

It's the double-edged sword of you need permission in order to include us in your AI results. And Google says, great, we'll strike deals with people for that permission and exclude everyone else. And suddenly the people who are smaller don't benefit from the need for permission. This is one of the things that people forget about the early part of the internet is permissionlessness everywhere.

is what drove a lot of discovery and it drove a lot of small publishers to succeed. And permission-based is also gatekeeping. And gatekeeping generally benefits larger organizations more than it does smaller organizations. So if you centralize things into a permission-based AI answer, you're going to reduce the number of places that benefit from those answers.

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Also, and I know we probably need to round this out, but also just the idea, you know, another thing that comes up for me here is the AI systems kind of feeding on their own entrails, so to speak. Like another big challenge around this is as these publishers, you know, a lot of publishers, a lot of sites are...

are creating their content with artificial intelligence and what qualifies, what constitutes high quality in that environment when it's kind of eating its own output to a certain degree. And again, who stands to benefit from that? Do the smaller, I think a lot of smaller sites, smaller websites are using AI for these things because it's more efficient and everything, but how does that impact how they are seen in these systems as high quality or low quality?

I, I, I hope that competition is one of the things that, that fine tunes that and keeps that tilting towards quality. And we have, you know, with open AI and anthropic and all the open source versions and even Lama and,

and all of that. Uh, we have a lot of ways people can go with that. So I'm, I'm curious how that's going to work as well, but don't forget YouTube. That's what I'll end with. Don't forget YouTube when you're good reminder, when you're so worried, what's going to happen to poor little Google. Oh, who's YouTube. I've never even heard of this scrappy little upstart. Yeah, exactly. Uh, the scrappy little billion dollar upside. Uh,

Well, we are small, we are scrappy, and we are made possible by you, the listener. Big thanks to Kirk Stephenson, Miranda Janelle, and ThatCharlieDude for their ongoing support, and new patrons as well. 90210 and Chris, welcome into the fold. Good to have you here. Nice zip code you got there. Thank you.

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There's more that we need to know today, so let's get to the briefs. Framework is pausing sale of some of its base model laptops in the United States in response to the U.S. tariffs that went into effect April 5th. Impacted models include the Framework Laptop 13 in the Ultra 5 125H and the Ultra 5 125H.

and Ryzen 5 7640U configurations. Framework says that selling its lowest-end SKUs with the 10% tariff in place would mean selling at a loss. The company does hope that the removal is temporary. And it sounds like just the lower-end ones for now. But yeah, you know, I have a feeling we're going to see a lot more of these in the coming days and weeks. It's

It's probably going to be one of those stories related to the tariffs that's hard not to mention when every big company makes the announcement that, oh, and by the way, we're impacted too. And here's what you're not going to see. Yeah. As we see these actual changes happen and the longer that these tariffs are in place and supposedly they're in place forever, the more of these kinds of stories we're going to see.

Indeed. Well, the story continues there, at least according or related to Apple. Anyways, Apple stores in the U.S. are seeing holiday level retail activity right now. At least last weekend, that was the case as consumers are looking to purchase new devices ahead of potential price increases related to those tariffs. Some analysts are projecting that iPhone prices could increase by up to 40 percent once Apple's stockpiled inventory is depleted.

Meanwhile, in China, Apple continues to lose ground to local brands like Huawei and Vivo. Chinese consumers are shifting in a different direction. National sentiment continues to shift towards its domestic brands and away from U.S. alternatives like the iPhone.

though, the more this kind of thing happens, the more Chinese consumers are pushed towards, uh, you know, buying, buying domestically, just, just like what the U S does, uh, you know, when it, when it pushes people to buy domestically, uh, as, as for the, the rush on, on phones, uh,

It's worth reminding folks that tariffs don't immediately mean price increases. There's a lot of things. We talked about this yesterday on the show. There's a lot of factors that go into whether a company will increase its price, whether it's going to eat into its profit level.

It's generally going to have a negative effect somewhere. If it eats into the profit level, then it has less profit to expand the business, less profit to keep jobs and all of that. But it may not increase the price. So we'll see if Apple, which generally has a pretty fat profit margin and has also been pivoting to services and seeing that more as the way to make money, whether they actually do increase their prices or not.

And if they do, I'm guessing it will not be a buy up to 40% because that would just sink demand. And so you got to remember, prices aren't based on how much it costs. Prices are based on how much people will pay for it. And sometimes you'll even price stuff under cost because you make your money somewhere else. And that's going to be a factor for Apple.

Yeah. Big time. Nintendo confirmed in an interview with Nintendo life that the switch to Joy-Con two joysticks will not use all effects sticks. Uh, hall effect is used to reduce the likelihood of drift. And you may recall that the original switch Joy-Cons saw so much drift that Nintendo offers free unlimited repairs for the problem in Europe. Now,

Nate Birdoff, senior VP of product development, said the controllers have been designed from the ground up and said, and I quote, they're not Hall effect sticks, but they feel really good. I promise they're pretty awesome, even though they aren't the thing that everybody wanted them to be. All I want is anyone, anyone who credibly can explain why they wouldn't use Hall effect. Like what's the benefit to not using Hall effect feedback at DailyTechNewsShow.com. Love to hear that, too.

Ahmad Al-Dail is Meta's VP of Generative AI, and he is actively denying allegations that Meta, the company, has manipulated benchmark scores for its new Lama 4 Maverick and Scout models. Those were actually released last weekend. And people are saying –

Because they trained them on test sets and didn't train and didn't train or test them rather on the actual model that everybody has access to immediately. Those allegations began on a Chinese social media post by a purported former employee that suggested the company used an experimental version of the model to score higher on the LM arena benchmark.

Meta has acknowledged, at least it did so in its release announcement, that the testing was done using a version of the model, quote, optimized for conversationality. So it kind of implies that there's a little bit of a difference here between the two. Al Dale acknowledged that the model was released quickly after development and would continue to stabilize over time. And that's why you're seeing the differences.

Yeah, I don't know who named DeepSeek would have an interest in going on Chinese social media to lambast Meta about this. But it is odd that they introduced a tuned model for Arena. Yeah.

Those are two different stories, by the way. The Chinese social media allegations are that they totally manipulated the benchmarks. What Meta has admitted is that, yes, we had a conversational tuned model on Arena and the one we released is not that tuned model, but they are in other ways the same model. So it's a little confusing there.

Speaking of Meta, Meta is expanding its teen safety measures first introduced on Instagram to Facebook and Messenger. So teen accounts, if you don't remember, restrict users younger than 18 from accessing sensitive content, interacting with strangers, other words, people that have not been approved on their message list.

Which I'm guessing they won't. So there you go. Who knows? There's all kinds of parents. I suppose you just never know. Whatever. Yeah.

Google's April 2025 Android security update addresses 62 vulnerabilities, and two of those actively exploited zero-date flaws were addressed here. One of those was used by Serbian authorities to unlock devices with an exploit chain developed by Celebrite. The other exposed sensitive information through an Android kernel flaw. This update is immediately available. If you have Pixel devices, you can get that.

Now, with the rollout for other devices coming, of course, whenever manufacturers and device OEMs decide to roll it out sometime in the coming weeks.

The Google Pixel Watch 2 and 3 are getting a feature drop that brings scam detection to the smartwatch. The features require the watch to be connected to a Pixel 9 and will show an alert when the phone detects patterns that indicate a possible scam taking place in the conversation. The update also includes a number of bug fixes, including one that resulted in delayed notifications on watches. That has now been fixed.

I haven't experienced the delayed notifications thing on the Pixel Watch 2 specifically, but I have experienced that on smartwatches, and that is so frustrating when it happens. So that's a good fix. Me too.

IBM unveiled the Z17, a next-generation mainframe designed to integrate AI capabilities at scale. It's powered by the Telum 2 processor and supports more than 250 AI use cases, including generative AI, real-time fraud detection, and a whole bunch of others. It's also capable of processing 50% more AI inference operations than the previous model, the Z16. The Z17 will become available on June 8th.

And Zipline is launching an unmanned aerial vehicle service in Dallas-Fort Worth suburb of Mesquite. Zipline vehicles can be loaded in seconds, travel several miles, and deliver packages with a retractable tether. Zipline craft can operate beyond line of sight near airports thanks to their FAA certification, transponder data, and onboard sensors.

For those who follow this space, the craft has Part 107 and Part 135 certification and soon will get Part 108 classification. The vehicles can detect bad weather, reroute, and share that info with other craft. The Mesquite launch is in partnership with Walmart but hopes to add more outlets later. Zipline hopes to continue to expand the service throughout the year. Those are the essentials for today. Let's dive a little deeper into an ongoing story and follow up.

That's right. You, Tom, traveled to Japan recently, along with Sean Hollister from The Verge. And you guys found Google Translate to be helpful. I also found it very helpful when I was in Italy and a lot different than when you had been to Japan previously.

Sean, thank you for joining me on this trip. Oh, it's good to be here. For anybody who doesn't know, Sean is married to my wife's sister. And so this is a whole big family trip, which is why we're here together. But we wanted to talk about Google Translate specifically because you've been here multiple times. You studied abroad here. You honeymooned here. I've been here twice before myself. But I feel like Google Translate

Has become like just a regular thing now and in ways that it wasn't in my previous trips. What about you? It is ubiquitous and not just because it is useful for this tremendous influx of travelers. We're saying in Japan right now, including yours truly. But also they know the people here know that it is a thing and they are ready to assist with this.

Several occasions here in Japan, I've been like, I need to say something. I need to understand something that somebody else said. And they will tell me, can you pull out Google Translate? Or they will take my phone from me that has Google Translate on it. And they will press the button and be like, yes, I'm going to say this thing to you so you can understand me.

And you actually speak a decent amount of Japanese. You're not fluent, but you can get around. I've still got some basic conversational Japanese skill from when I did study abroad here 20 years ago and some of my college learning then. Yeah, I can read the Katakana and Hiragana. I can ask for basic things. Do I always understand what they're saying back to me? No, that's where Google Translate comes in. But it's been phenomenal and very intriguing to watch

If you have an open day.

With my old, my, you know, my, my old level of I'm, I'm trying to actually read the words and they are miles ahead of me because they've just pressed the phone button and there's their, their translated phrase. And it's not like it's totally removed the language barrier, but it certainly has eased it along. And like you say, it, it,

It has become so ubiquitous that we were out in a fairly rural area near Mount Fuji at a restaurant that was kind of on its own off the beaten path. And we went in and there was a sign that said, please.

please have Google Translate ready. And the waiter, she came over with her phone out ready to use Google Translate. I was like, oh yeah, this is definitely just the norm now. It really is. And I would say that English seems to have spread a little bit further on signage. It used to be I would tell somebody, oh,

Oh, if you go to Tokyo as somebody who doesn't speak a word of Japanese, can't read a word of Japanese, you'll be just fine. All of the signs are in are in English as well. 20 years ago, you can always ask for an English menu. Some of that has also proliferated. We saw some of that as well in the in the little town near Mount Fuji. We're certainly seeing loads of it in Kyoto now that we're here. This is where we're recording from Kyoto.

But Google Translate just takes it to this next level where you can point at any of the signs anywhere. As you are flying by at 200 miles per hour on the Shinkansen, you can point at the sign of the top of a building, and it will catch that in time and tell you that this place serves up traditional East

Eastern medicine, for example. I have to say that I have probably used it more often to read something, not as often menus, although occasionally, but definitely products and some signage that was not. But probably most often in a convenience store where I have this app called P-A-Y-K-E, pay key, that is supposed to read the UPC code and tell you what it is. I

I've used that a couple of times, but most of the time I just go right to Google Translate and read whatever the box says. Although occasionally, and I think I posted one of these, it is a hilarious translation because especially with package labels, they're being less precise with language. And so they use more colloquialisms and stuff. And I found that that's where it starts to break down. You're like, I'm pretty sure that's not what they mean to say. Yes, yes. Also, sometimes it will translate

transliterate without translating. We pointed it the other day, a friend and I, we pointed it at some various kinds of fried pancakes and bread at a cellar stand. And it just, it just pulled out the Japanese characters and was like, I can't remember exactly what the characters were, but

I had to pull out my phone separately. Like, what does this Japanese word mean? It translated to pile of straw, pile of straw bread, which did not tell us too much. No. Yeah. And we bought some Netflix snacks. That's the one I posted on Instagram. And and there I don't remember all of them off the top of my head. But there were, you know, some some pretty hilarious colloquialisms that were translated literally. I don't make any sense when you translate them literally into English.

Also, you had a really interesting experiment where you were watching TV with Japanese subtitles. How did that work? Yeah, we were in the hotel late one night and we didn't want to wake the kids up. So I turned off the audio and up popped all these Japanese subtitles for this show.

economics show, something about what's going on in Japan in terms of the economy. And I was like, well, can I do this? And it didn't quite work at first. It translated the first set of words on the screen, and then the program kept going, the TV show kept going, nothing else happened. But then I flicked my phone downward, away from the screen, pointed it back up at the screen again, and every time Google Translate saw a new set of words, thought I was aiming at a new object,

It translated what was in front of me. And I got the gist of what this show on Japanese economy was about. This is something I would never have been able to do with my, you know, three years of Japanese study. I don't know any of those words yet. I study, you know, basic conversational Japanese. I can get around asking for things. But this, an economy show, there it is. Here's what they're talking about.

Yeah, that's pretty crazy. I guess it assumes when you've translated something, you don't need anything else translated and leaves it up so you can see it. So it makes sense. A little annoying to have to like point it somewhere else and then point it back up, but it kind of worked. It really made me think that an amped up version of this app with a real time mode would be great, both for video programs like that, but also for conversation. There is a conversation mode in here where you can theoretically have the Japanese speaker and the English speaker talk at

the same time. That did not work very well for me here. I constantly had errors with that. I would laugh with another, you know, a Japanese person here, we'd both be laughing at the app failing on us. And one of my friends was trying to listen to a presentation at the Kawaguchi Music Forest where they've got all kinds of

automated like pianos and disc players and things like that that play their own music. The presenter was trying to explain the history of this and just would not catch all the things that she was saying. Real time is difficult. It's good for like one interaction at a time.

Yeah. And as far as non-Google, everybody may like, well, wait, there's other translation apps out there. Google Translate seems to be the one that everybody knows and uses in Japan anyway. I tried Papago for Translate once. It just got a weird look. Like I either I don't know what that is or I know that's Korean and you're not Korean. Why are you using that kind of look? And for websites, like

On my iPhone, using Safari and on my Pixel using Chrome, they both have built-in buttons where you can just say, translate this website. That works really well. And I've been able, for some websites, they have English dropdown and they translate it themselves. But for ones that don't, I found that to be, to work really, really good. Yeah. For me, it's really, I've been, I've been using, for me, I've been using Google Translate for

many, many years, including the web version of it you're talking about. I was using that 20 years ago to help assist with the Japanese studies. And so that was always something where I saw the potential of Translate, but figuring out Japanese sentences beginning to end in an intelligible way for English speakers, I had no idea that we were at the point where it can do that with practically any written thing that you pointed at with your phone.

To the point where I pulled out some cards that the tutors sent our study abroad folks when we were leaving Japan 20 years ago. They're like, here's our contact information. Keep in touch with us. These were handwritten notes that each one of our friends in Japan gave us as we left. It can look at those handwritten notes and figure out what all those characters are and translate them for us.

Connectivity, I think, is a key to the uptake of it, too. Back in 2019, when I was here, I tried to use Google Translate in a little shop and I had no connectivity. And I thought, I want to use this, but it's not working. We figured it out. The fact that there's better Internet everywhere as well and getting an eSIM and having better connectivity, I think that helps, too. Yeah, it can figure out so much so quickly now with the ubiquitous connectivity.

I would say that one of the things that we've run into, this is pretty fun, is that it isn't very good at necessarily figuring out systems. Even if you know what the words are that you're looking at on, say, your clothes washer and dryer...

You won't necessarily know which buttons you need to press to make it do the thing that you want to do. It can't tell you what the button was supposed to do. It just can tell you what the label might have said. Also, I noticed if the light is on, on say like a dryer, it has a harder time reading that when all the other ones are off. And it'll tell you all the ones that are off, but wasn't translating the one that was lit for me.

Yeah, I wonder if that's something about like the camera refresh rate or the contrast or something versus like in many cases, if the washer is on, it's going to have an LED in there that's technically strobing at a certain frequency. I don't know if the camera's like synced up with that correctly. So printed words doing very well with things on LCD screens, maybe. But some of these LED lit individual like here is the sign that means it is currently in drying mode and drying your clothes.

sometimes I'd have to like hold it there for a while or take a picture of it before it would figure out what I'm looking at. Well, Sean, thanks, man, for taking a little time out of our trip here to chat with us. If folks want to find what you do, where should they go? Oh, I'm on Blue Sky, Sean Hollister on Blue Sky, and also at The Verge where I do my writing. Thanks so much, man. Thank you.

What do you want to hear us talk about on the show? One way to let us know is our subreddit. You can submit stories and vote on them at reddit.com slash r slash Daily Tech News Show. From mindless tasks to industrial-grade AI to ease of mind. Supercharge your transformation with industrial AI. Transform the everyday with Siemens.

Yeah.

They're called Monday.com, and it was love at first onboarding. They're beautiful dashboards. They're customizable workflows that is floating on a digital cloud nine. So no hard feelings, but we're moving on. Monday.com, the first work platform you'll love to use. We end every episode of DTNS with some shared wisdom, and today Cuz is helping us understand.

With regard to the Android isn't the anti-iPhone anymore article, Cuz in our Discord said, I am one of the most disappointed Android users with the direction that Android is going and iPhoning themselves. But there are still a few things that are possible on Android that are not on iOS. You still have sideloading, and now even F-Droid can auto-update apps. You still have more access to apps getting and sending your notifications. I learned this recently when using the self-hosted NTFY app.

I learned of a similar situation when connecting the Mastatic app to a LoRaWAN radio. And I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting. Also, Google's assistants are more useful than Siri and Apple intelligence, which is an opinion-based thing, whereas the rest of those are just facts. Apparently, I need to read this article and maybe include it in tonight's episode of Android Faithful. Yeah, you might want to check that out. And thank you, Cuz, for participating in the Discord conversations. Yeah.

Yeah. Thank you to Cuz. Thank you to Sean. Thank you to everyone for contributing to today's show and future shows. We'd love to hear from you. And thank you for being along for Daily Tech News Show. The show is made possible by our patrons on patreon.com slash DTNS. If you want music news and you have five minutes for it, you could check out Daily Music Headlines at dailymusicheadlines.com. We'll talk to you tomorrow. The DTNS family of podcasts.

Helping each other understand. Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this program.

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I don't know about you, but the number one thing I look forward to when I return from traveling is a good night's sleep in my own bed. That has never been more true than it is now that I have a Sleep Number smart bed. I get so sore after traveling on planes, but after literally one night in my Sleep Number smart bed, my body feels restored, rested, and relaxed.

The fact that my bed actually listens to my body and adjusts to my needs to keep me sleeping soundly all the way through the night is worth it alone. Not to mention my husband and I never need to argue over firmness because we can each dial in our own sleep number setting. Why choose a Sleep Number Smart Bed? So you can choose your ideal comfort on either side. And now, for a limited time, Sleep Number Smart Beds start at $849. Price?

Prices higher in Alaska and Hawaii. Exclusively at a Sleep Number store near you. See store or sleepnumber.com for details.