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This is an experiment is what it is because I am joined by the amazing Hall of Fame podcaster, Molly Wood. Hi, Molly Wood. Hi, Tom Merritt. We're doing a breaking news weekend pre-taping about breaking news. Is it breaking rant? Sort of. Breaking rant, yes. It is a little bit of a breaking rant, yeah. So this show came about...
because molly and i were talking about the ruling from a federal judge uh that apple did not follow the court order that basically had given apple a win in an epic uh antitrust case when i say epic i mean the company epic had brought the antitrust case although it was rather epic as well um
They had won everything except the judge said, but you can't stop companies from saying there's another way to pay.
And Apple responded by saying, great, we will put a lot of restrictions on what people can say about another way to pay and insist on collecting 27% of anything that they make off of said links. The judge said, no, that is not okay. That is not what I meant. Wrote a rather scathing opinion about it, which we've covered on Daily Tech News Show. And then when that news broke on Twitter,
So Wednesday evening, Molly, you texted me and we had a great conversation over text. So we thought, you know what, maybe we just reenact that text message conversation. Pretty much. We just went back and forth for long enough that and have been covering some version of this for long enough that we were like, boy, this is a really good podcast as so many of our comments.
Which, by the way, is how we started podcasting in the first place. Yeah, pretty much. This is such, you know, knowing that the Buzz Out Loud reunion and anniversary show just came out, this is like, this is how it all began. Indeed, indeed. So we thought, yeah, so we're basically going to like, for the most part, just read you our texts. Yeah. Picture this. You're in the garage, hands covered in grease, just finished up tuning your engine with a part you found on eBay. And you realize, you know what?
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E-Trade is a business of Morgan Stanley. It's not so much a dramatic reenactment as a chance for us to express those thoughts out loud in front of you. Exactly. Yeah. So basically what happened is the story came out, and it can be summarized thusly. A federal judge hammered Apple for violating a ruling in an antitrust case that required the company to loosen certain restrictions it imposes on software makers in its app store. Oh, what do you know? Yeah.
So I get this text while I'm still in Las Vegas for the morning streams thing. So I'm in the middle of a bunch of events, but I respond, just after the EU did.
Very interesting. I mean, seriously, it is an actual object lesson in overreach because to add a little context to that text, we had just talked about Apple's behavior in the app store. And I deployed one of my absolute favorite phrases in response to the way that Apple has been charging people a fee to direct consumers to another place to shop, which is pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered.
And I am just so, to add my context, I am just so frustrated with Apple trying to say, well, you can't even link out.
I, I totally get that Apple deserves to collect money to maintain its app store. I think there are lots of ways to do that. I think maybe 30% collection on in-store apps is a thing. I get a little weird that it's only for digital and like the rules suddenly change when you're doing digital as far as the justifications. So I wrote in response, I mean, seriously, why is this one so hard?
I mean, I guess decades of zero accountability might make you think you could get away with charging a fee for offering alternative ways to buy services, but it's such a straight up evil thing to do that they had to realize it might be the thing that tipped the scales.
All right. So then I get pulled away. I'm doing my event. I get a good night's sleep. I get up. I head to the airport. And as I'm in the car on the way to the airport, I don't think of it. Molly do where I was. I write this.
Okay, back to this. Was at an event last night and just getting my full attention on it. Love that the judge came down hard on this. Harder than the EU, which is fine with Apple charging. Just the EU was like, not so much. Just don't charge so much. This is better. Unless Apple makes it a condition for every app, including the ones that sell non-digital to pay a fee on links out, then no, it's anti-competitive to do this, period.
And then I responded and said, yes, I think it is awesome that the judge's ruling also includes a recommendation for possible criminal contempt for them just not doing it because that ruling had come down from the U. They didn't. And the ruling in the Epic case said, don't do this. And they just ignored it.
And then I said, because it's kind of the double whammy of evil that they do it at all, which is hog behavior. Hogs get slaughtered. And then they got spanked for it. And they were basically like, we're the only game in town, so we don't have to change a thing. It is, in fact, the very essence of anti-competitive behavior with the emphasis on the behavior.
And this changes my take on Tim Cook, too, that Phil Schiller in the testimony was found out to be saying, like, maybe we don't do this. Maybe we just ignore this ruling because you know what? No, no. Schiller was the ones like, maybe we just don't charge for linking out. And Tim Cook was the one saying like, no, we're going to charge. No, we're going to. Yes, exactly. Because even if you're Tim Cook, I wrote power corrupts. Yeah. Yeah.
And I don't think greed is even the main motivation here either. It's almost a control slash pride thing. And then I just wrote snobbery. I was about to board the shuttle that takes you from the terminal to the gate. So I only had time for snobbery. Snobbery. I said, yes. I mean, I really do think it is a corrosive effect of a complete and persistent lack of a
accountability. Like they have never really gotten in trouble except for maybe some fines here and there that mean very little to them combined with probably yes, a growing sense of snobbery and pride. That's basically like we built this and all of you are free loaders. And it's kind of like that study that shows the wealthier you get, the less empathy you have. This is that, but like at the corporate level. Yeah, totally. Um, this kind of isolation, this is the kind of isolation that lets you believe your own BS.
- Yep, exactly. And then I said it was almost the same kind of thinking as good old, what was his name? Ed Whitaker, the ISP provider. Was it SBC Global, something like that? - Yeah, it was pre-AT&T or AT&T, anyway, yeah. - Yeah, it was whatever one AT&T merged with. And he was the guy who kicked off the net neutrality debate by saying, "Hey, wait a second. "If you use my pipes to deliver your service "and then you get paid for the service "that you provide over my pipes,
Then I should get paid for that too. And then Apple, in terms of the isolation that lets them believe their own BS, yeah, no court or European Union or consumer has so far had the power to say otherwise. Until Yvonne, which is the first name of the judge. Yes, her name is Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers. Yeah. Yes, that's her.
But also I responded, OMG, yes, it's Whitaker all over again, but almost worse because it's cloaked in being better for you. Right. And my point being like Whitaker was saying like, it's our pipe, suck it. And Apple's like, this is our platform. And really we know best. Right. But it is exactly the same kind of arrogance. It's like that airline CEO when they started charging for baggage, who basically was like, look, you bought a ticket for your butt, but you didn't buy a ticket for your bag.
Thanks a lot CEO. And then, and this is where this is the, this is the rant part. I think that Apple's BS around the app store points to what I still consider to be the fatal flaw in their business. Despite I know them still being among the most valuable companies in the world, if not the valuable, depending on the day that we're talking, but the business all comes down to selling iPhones and every other way that they make money.
significant amounts of money is by tinkering around the edges of iPhones. Yes, that includes accessories, but it also includes money from the services related to iPhones. And they're at the point of trying to have to squeeze blood from the stone there, because compared to Amazon or Microsoft or Google, they don't have some cloud business that is actually the money maker behind the scenes. They have an app store business
that still relies on people having iPhones. Yeah. The device as lock-in as a loss leader has been interesting to watch. Apple Music has become pretty compelling. It's certainly number two to Spotify,
worldwide, not in all regions, but worldwide. Apple TV has great content, but I run into way more people who don't pay for it than do. Usually it's like, yeah, I heard that's good, but I don't get Apple TV. And they all think you need an Apple device if you want to watch it.
The move would be to say they have the best service on any device, but it's even better on an Apple device. To me, that would be the way to pitch this to people. Everything they do outside of their platform, TV, music, cloud, and messaging, however, is instead begrudging and broken and not best in class outside of their platform. Yes, exactly. Exactly.
Um, it feels like, I wrote, feels like jibs said, don't do it. Uh, I believe I meant jobs, uh, feels like Steve jobs said, don't do it off platform unless you can do it well. And Tim cook says, don't do it off platform unless you're forced to. Yep. And then I said, they locked themselves into this model. Like the Lakers locked themselves
themselves into LeBron because sadly we were talking the night after the Lakers got eliminated. Yes. I mean, make an Apple app store for Android in the EU. Now that they take the, like do that, that would be a killer move.
Do that because if they don't pull out of this spiral, there is no real future because we will eventually transcend iPhones in some ways. And in response to the idea for the App Store for Android, I'm like, yeah, announce iMessage for all platforms. Kill WhatsApp for good. Yeah. They know that phones aren't the future and they're a little hesitant to find the iPhone to the iPhone's iPod.
Right. Exactly. The next thing. And instead of thinking bigger, like we could put these services on other devices and make money, they're just trying to get every freaking drop that they can from the services businesses and the businesses that rely on their platform. And back to your point, they can legitimately make messaging or music or TV the best app you can get outside of Apple and still tout it's even better on our device. Yep.
This was one of the first articles that I wrote for Wired when I became a contributor for Wired. I said basically the Apple business model is flawed because it fundamentally relies on them selling iPhones forever and maybe a few computers here and there. And I got torn the hell apart for it. But I will die on this hill forever.
And in terms of the idea of having services available on other devices, yes. And it would be a great ad for the devices. Yeah. And honestly, they should try to squeeze every drop they can from services, but you don't do that by shutting people out. Yeah. If you're doing it with flatly anti-competitive behavior and what are the equivalent of junk fees, you have lost the plot. I honestly think it's fear. I think they're afraid to compete outside of their comfort zone right now. Cook is...
I really liked Tim Cook. I just want to say that I think he's too cautious. That was good. Immediately post jobs, they needed a steady hand and they got it, but I think now they need the visionary again. Yep. A hundred percent. It is a failure of imagination. And that Schiller story to go back to that, where Phil Schiller was like, yeah, maybe we just blink out. Maybe, you know, maybe, maybe we don't try to charge, uh, and cook holding them back. Uh, it seems to me to have been out of fear. Uh,
It's tempting to say he's just at the beck and call of finance, but that doesn't scan for me. It's not as simple as money. It's money times cautiousness, fear of losing the money they have in order to get new markets. I absolutely agree. And if you look at all of the moonshots of
that Apple has just tiptoed into cars, you know, artificial intelligence, like whatever you thought was going to be the home pod, whatever you thought was going to be the future, the new direction of Apple. They just took these baby steps they didn't commit. And so, of course, they were all going to fail. Yeah. Vision Pro is exactly that, I think. Yes. You go hard or you go home. And this company has bet the entire farm on iPhones, like even Apple intelligence.
What are you guys doing over there? Oh my God. Yeah, seriously. What are you doing? And then that fear is also preventing them from making Siri into the best in class device AI that would make me want to buy an iPhone. Like why are they firing people at Apple for not being able to pull off stable diffusion image generation or whatever when my phone consistently capitalizes the word unfollow? Like if you want to keep selling me iPhones, then make Siri.
This thing that I use every day, the thing that I dictate into or ask for reminders or I just need to work, make it work.
I know that Apple's advantage is being slow, right? They figure out what the market is and then they come in and perfect it historically. And I don't have a problem with them being slow. I don't have a problem with them being privacy first and saying, well, we would do that, but we want to protect your privacy. I don't have a problem with them specifically with AI saying we would rather have ours on device. That way you aren't worried about risking things in the cloud more.
But this is now too slow. And I think it's become a rationalization instead of a reason. I agree. And it also is reducing the specialness of the iPhone. Like the iPhone is becoming a commodity. It is quickly becoming a terminal for my AI chats. It feels like a death spiral. Yeah. No. Like I don't care. I no longer care what phone I'm on. Yeah.
I just want to talk to Claude. Yeah. I've lost my place in our chat because I didn't do the smart thing you did. And copy it out. I'll wait. Yeah. Go down to end hilariously. Oh, you can't do find because you're still in iMessages. Yeah. Here, do you want me to like, do you want me to?
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E-Trade is a business of Morgan Stanley. Oh, I just passed jibs and now I'm catching up. Oh yeah, you're almost there. You're almost there. Yeah, I think it's fear. That's Schiller. Absolutely agree. And the fear. I don't have a problem with big device. Death spiral. Here we go. Death spiral. All right. Yeah. Hilariously, they're doing what I think is smart.
on directing you to outside models like ChatGPT, and eventually they're going to do Gemini. I'm pretty sure about that. That is Apple being the smart curator. That's a good position for them to be, right? That's what they are in a lot of ways. Like, yeah, we don't do search. Google does search, but we'll be the curator to make sure that your experience is good. Then they confuse the hell out of users by annoyingly asking them if it's okay to go off
outside every single time. Can you imagine if every time you searched in Safari, it said, we'll be directing you to Google for your search and they will know about your search terms. Is that okay?
Wait, is that what happens in Apple intelligence? If it goes to chat GPT, every time it goes to chat GPT, it says, we are going to send your query to chat GPT. Is that okay? Unless you go into settings and turn that off and then it will never tell you that it's going to chat GPT. Right. So that's insane. Yeah. And what that only does is cement the fact that I am now going to use my iPhone as a terminal.
to access these services directly. And so then you start to become the hardware that's like fine, but hasn't changed in 20 years. And the operating system on device that is getting increasingly clunky and bogged down. And as then I went on to say, as I think we've talked about before, I could also imagine that working on iOS at this point, like a, whatever it is, a 20, 18 year old operating system,
might not be the most coveted job in the Valley, you know? So like there could be a talent thing happening there. You're not necessarily attracting the best and brightest and most brilliant, like to make, um,
iOS and Siri work perfectly. Yeah, that very well could be true. But that should also be true of Mac OS too. And Apple should have the ability to attract top talent to its generative models. And it's been doing some impressive research publishing. So I know they have talent. There is talent there. So I go back to the business side, holding them back, to be honest. Yeah. Hey, Siri, take this text chain and put it in the voices of Molly and Tom and publish it as a podcast. Thanks.
And I said, let's just record a special show later where we just read it. Yeah. And that's what we did. And there you have it, folks.
This is definitely a podcast experiment. I know people have read scripts on podcasts before, but this is... I thought we got pretty good at like, it started to just become a conversation. These were just notes at one point. Totally. Yeah. And honestly, there were some things that I'll be transparent. There were some things I changed the wording of because I would say them in short code to Molly. Yeah.
You know, because we've been doing this enough. She knows what I mean. And I'm like, well, the general listener might need a little more explanation about that. But the sentiments were all the same, which is I believe that Apple has got good products still. And I believe they have good intentions in many respects.
But I feel like I'm finally seeing this is where they're acting differently. And I mean, I'm a barking dog on the internet, right? That's what Justin Robert Young always says. What do I know? But to me, it's like, well, this is where you're starting to slip. And no, Apple's not going to go out of business tomorrow, right? But these are the kinds of things if you don't correct for five years down the road, we're talking about the decline of Apple instead of Apple had a bad week, which is what we're talking about now.
I think at some point in our chat, I said something like, I know that it's probably as far off as the sun crashing into the earth to think about Apple truly declining as a result of this. But stagnation is a dangerous place to be. And the stock price has stayed where it is on the strength of the fact that an iPhone now is effectively like a subscription for people.
Like you just do the Apple version of getting the new one every two years and you just do. Right. And so that it's become it's high margin income that they can count on.
Yeah. But, and there aren't, the reason they can behave like hogs instead of pigs is because there aren't a lot of alternatives. Well, I have an Android phone. But that won't always be true. I have an Android phone and an iOS phone and the iOS phone gets used more often because they're just a few things that are not easily replicated on the Android phone. If I were to switch all the way to Android, I would be fine. I would learn how to do it in a new way.
But I would have to learn how to do it in a new way. And to me, that's the barrier that's keeping people in the iPhone and...
The more people that jump over the fence, that barrier works two ways, right? They won't want to go back. And that's, I mean, we didn't talk about that. But when I'm talking about like make Apple music best in class on Android, make Apple TV best in class on Android, Roku, Amazon, make these things best in class outside gets people back over the fence eventually too. Cause they're like, Oh right. These are really good. Right.
If you're on Android and you're using Apple Music and you're like, oh my gosh, this is so much better than Spotify, which nobody says right now. That's not what I'm saying. But if that were the case, it would make people go like, maybe I should go back to it. Right now, it's not going to do that because they're going to be like, Spotify is actually better. I honestly wonder too if they, I mean, it would take work to get these apps to be best in class. Like I would say iMessage wouldn't need a lot of work, right? iMessage is awesome. Yeah.
Unless you, God forbid, have an Android person in the mix. But like Apple Music isn't best in class. And like most of the services that Apple is forcing us to, you know, have on our phones aren't necessarily best in class. So they would first have to get a remodel before they get flipped onto other platforms. But think about like, think about a scenario where a chat, where God help, I mean, look, this is a nightmare scenario. But there is a world where
like a chat GPT or a Claude becomes your interface to everything. Like you just go, like I would just go to chat GPT and be like, find me this song on Spotify that I want to hear. And then maybe it would open Spotify and play it or whatever in that world. Open AI can put out a phone. Yeah. And I don't need an iPhone anymore. Yeah. Like I only have an iPhone now because there's certain things that iPhone does. And I just, I am on the subscription thing to lock in or whatever. But if all of a sudden I don't have to pay anything,
$1,200 every two years for a device that's just going to increasingly piss me off because they're not trying as hard as they used to. Like lock-in doesn't work forever. It works for a really long time. There's so many affordable phones that can become that template for
And I think Apple's smart and they are partnering up with OpenAI now so that they can be one of those phones potentially, you know, so they're doing some of those things right. But like you said, I think that's the concept behind the rabbit and all of that is like, hey, what if this could just do everything for you? And we're not quite there yet, but we'll get there.
But once it's like the young girl's primer or whatever from Diamond Age. Oh, yeah. Right. Like once we get past phones, I don't know. It just feels like everything that you said about the stagnant thinking is true and I think has been evident for a while. But man, when you start to combine stagnant thinking with just like behavior that's so overtly, I've been bitching about Apple's abusive behavior on the margins for way too long.
But when it's so overtly abusive that judges are like, hey, bro, I'm going to refer you for criminal contempt because you literally can't even be bothered to like
do the basics of complying with these rulings. Like, well, and there, there is the judge called one piece of testimony, a lie. And I think that's the basis for the criminal contempt is like, you know, you, you don't lie to judges. Judges don't take that. Well, here's what us district judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers wrote among other things. Apple willfully chose not to comply with this court's injunction.
It did so with the express intent to create new anti-competitive barriers, which would by design and in effect maintain a valued revenue stream, a revenue stream previously found to be anti-competitive, that it thought this court would tolerate such insubordination was a gross miscalculation. As always, the cover-up made it worse. Yeah. Oh boy. Don't upset the judge. Just do what the judge said.
Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered. And I think Apple thought they were complacent in their thought of like, we will use Apple logic to do this, right? They do this all the time.
but they don't have a judge looking over their shoulder. We're like, okay, so we need to do this. We'll do that. And the, they, with the EU, the EU said, let's find charge. We understand your logic, but you can't charge that much. It's too much. This judge was like, no, I know. I never said you can't charge, but it clearly was not my intention. And you do that. So, yeah. Yeah.
Molly, thank you for reenacting our text message. I hope people enjoyed that. This was really fun to talk about. Folks, let us know what you think about it. Yeah, please do. In case you're wondering, friends, yes, this is in fact what we do with our off time. It is. It is in fact. This is not the first kind of chain. This is just the first time we thought to do this. Feedback at DailyTechNewsShow.com for your thoughts. And Molly, what do you, of your many projects got going on, do you want to tell folks about?
Go listen to everybody in the pool. Everybody, my podcast about climate solutions for the month of April for Earth Month, plus one extra because the show drops on Thursdays and today as we're taping, this is May 1st.
I did five episodes in a row of stuff you can actually adopt as a consumer. Like it's a time when people are feeling kind of helpless and I wanted Earth Month to be a month of action on everybody in the pool. So there's everything from, you know, more sustainable coffee alternatives to an entire sort of
green c net if you will a site that gives you buying advice for sustainable options uh it's just it i really like you there is stuff you can do and you should so check it out everybody in the pool.com which by the way got a facelift the website got a facelift oh pretty i'm loving it go check it out yeah and and really these episodes are great because you will come away with a thing you can do it won't be like gosh i hope those people do that someday it will be like oh i could do this now that's that's pretty fantastic
Thanks again, Molly. Thanks, everybody, for supporting us at patreon.com slash DTNS. Like I said, let us know what you think of this. Talk to you on Monday. The DTNS family of podcasts. Helping each other understand. Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this program.
Support for this podcast and the following message is brought to you by E-Trade from Morgan Stanley. With E-Trade, you can dive into the market with easy-to-use tools, $0 commissions, and a wide range of investments. And now there's even more to love. Get access to industry-leading research and insights from Morgan Stanley to help guide your decisions. Open an account and get up to $1,000 or more with a qualifying deposit. Get started today at E-Trade.com. Terms and other fees apply. Investing involves risks. Morgan Stanley Smith Barney LLC member SIPC.
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