Why AI in Nuclear Power is a Good Idea - DTNSB 4999
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Today, Tanner Goodman tells us about AI use in nuclear plants and more from your emails. I'm Tom Merritt. I'm Jen Cutter. Let's start with what you need to know with the big story. The news...

Is that the CVE program will continue to be funded, which may not sound like news to you unless you heard that it wasn't going to be funded and or if you don't know what CVE is. So let's start right there. CVE stands for the Common Vulnerabilities and Exposures System. That's what the CVE is for. But the important part to remember is it provides a standardized way to refer to security vulnerabilities.

so that everybody knows which ones we're talking about. If you follow security, you're probably familiar with the CVE number. I talked about this on the morning stream. You'll hear different names for the same vulnerability. One group calls it the devil's blood virus, and the other group calls it the angry bear virus, but it's the same one. And you can tell that because there's one CVE number. Sometimes

You'll have multiple CVE numbers for one group of attacks because they could be patched separately, that sort of thing. It's important. CVE database is maintained by the U.S. National Cybersecurity Federally Funded Research and Development Center. In the world of government acronyms, that is shortened to an FFRDC.

There are many FFRDCs. This is the one that maintains the CVE database. And that center, that FFRDC, is operated by a nonprofit company called the MITRE Corporation. The MITRE Corporation operates lots of FFRDCs for the government across multiple industries, healthcare, aviation, and of course, in this case, cybersecurity. And the CVE has been around for a long time. It has been in operation since 1999. So,

It threw a lot of people on Tuesday when MITRE Vice President Yossi Barsoom sent a note to the CVE board members that the contract for funding from the U.S. government to maintain the CVE would expire on Wednesday, April 16th.

This set off alarms for the entire security community. I got worried emails from reasonable people. I get worried emails from people all the time, but I got the people are like, I'm not trying to fly off the hook here, but this seems really bad. The CVE board announced the launch of a nonprofit called the CVE Foundation in order to secure independence for the CVE. This apparently has been planned for

For the past year, they've been trying to work to make the CVE more independent in its funding, and this kind of pushed them to launch it now. The idea is to eliminate a single point of failure in the vulnerability management ecosystem.

However, Tuesday evening, the U.S. Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency, or CISA, executed an option period on MITRE's contract to extend it by 11 months. So there will be no lapse in critical CVE services for the time being. The effect of this would be to give the CVE Foundation more time, potentially.

Because there still is a single point of failure. It's just 11 months down the road. So some people are wondering like, oh, well, they launched this foundation. Will they keep doing it? I expect they'll probably keep doing it. There are other efforts that people became aware of yesterday. The European Union Agency for Cybersecurity or ANISA has also launched a European vulnerability database as well. The Computer Incident Response Center in Luxembourg is developing the Global CVE Allocation System.

That would be a decentralized way to manage vulnerability tracking, which wouldn't need a central authority. So it feels like there's a lot of good ideas here that could come together and create one independent, reliable system for tracking vulnerabilities and would not be able to have its funding cut off by accident or at a moment's notice.

And rather than back off now that the CVE contract has been extended, maybe these 11 months will give these folks the time they need to come up with a graceful replacement that could possibly launch next March or at least begin to transition next March. Jen, what do you make of this?

I also got a lot of panic messages from InfoSec people on socials because there's nothing that InfoSec people love more than a single point of failure. Mm-mm.

So yeah, we went from, you know, the sky is falling to, okay, we have time. We can fix this. We will get through this. Yeah. One of the first emails I got from someone who I don't think they'd mind me naming them, but because this is all blown past, I just won't bother. But they were like,

I think this is real. This is before it was confirmed that the note had been sent because it was Krebs who was reporting it. And if it's real, it's really bad. And I don't want to overreact, but this could cause a lot of problems, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And then by the time I got up this morning, the funding had been announced. And I sent a reply to that email and was like,

What a difference 24 hours can make these days in so many ways. But my interpretation of this, I don't know about you, Jen, is that this wasn't planned. I think it would be reasonable for you to look at this and say, ah, this is one of those things the U.S. government is doing right now to see if there are alternative ways of funding things that can cut the budget. Right. Because it did have that effect. Right.

As soon as people thought the funding was going away, a bunch of people stepped in to say, well, maybe we could do it this way. Maybe we could do it that way. If that had been the plan, I would have expected this to be stretched out for a few more days before the extension was made. Instead, CISA stepped in and said, oh, crap. OK, we don't have a new contract for you, but we can extend. We can use an option to extend the current one by 11 months. That feels more to me like this slipped through the cracks. Yeah.

Like there just aren't enough eyes on things right now. And people didn't realize the contract was expiring or if they did realize it, they didn't get to it right away and they had to scramble to make it happen. Yeah. The, the old way of doing business, people are still kind of adjusting. Cause yeah, you'd assume like, okay, like, you know, we'll have this ready. We'll move this along. And then it's like, oh, we have one day and we need to come up with a plan immediately. Yeah.

Yeah. So I wonder why that note took the CVE board by surprise or did it? Maybe it didn't. Maybe they knew this was coming and they were like, okay, that's why we're ready to launch the CVE Foundation because they had that at the ready to launch. A lot of things unknown. But I think it's safe to say from my perspective, this is not the way I would like critical systems to be managed. Right.

And it reminds me of, I don't know if you remember a while back, there was some dispute over the U.S. funding of domain name registration databases. And yeah, and this kind of reminds me of that, except in reverse. Back then, it was pressure to get the U.S. to not fund it and provide a more multilateral, multi-stakeholder way of funding it. This feels like it could have the effect of making that happen, perhaps even by accident. Yeah.

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Let's check in on what, if anything, we learned during the ongoing antitrust case of the U.S. versus Meta. This first bit is not from the courtroom, but the Wall Street Journal sources say Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg attempted to settle the case out of court, but was unable to agree with the U.S. on the amount. Zuckerberg offered to pay as much as $1 billion, but the FTC said it wouldn't settle for anything less than an $18 billion fine and a consent decree.

For comparison, Meta paid a $5 billion fine to the FTC in 2019 over alleged privacy violations. In the trial itself, Zuckerberg said that Meta considered spinning off Instagram into a separate company back in 2018 in order to get ahead of being broken up by the government. He didn't want growth of Instagram at the expense of Facebook if the company would end up losing Instagram.

Yeah. So this is Zuckerberg trying to show that holding Instagram was far from creating a monopoly position, but was was something that that even had negative consequences. You know, we were we were stealing ads from Facebook to put them on Instagram and force it to grow. And then we were looking at the regulatory climate and saying, well, we could be siphoning things away from Facebook to grow Instagram only to lose it. And, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

So that's sort of interesting. I'm not sure how relevant it will be in the end. It's hard to tell. The Wall Street Journal story, though, tells me that's why we had the story earlier in the week that the FTC chair, Ferguson, was in the president's office saying, don't come to an agreement because.

1 billion, 18 billion. We previously paid 5 billion. We just need to be in the middle, right? Seems to be where that would have been going. And I could see, you know, like an $8 billion fine and a consent decree being something they would agree on. And it seems like Ferguson was like, no, let's not let them off. Let's push them all the way to the trial. Even if we can't win it, we'll get a bigger number out of it. Yeah, I think we're going to hear more about the consent decree because companies really don't like that kind of oversight. No, no, they do not.

After several rounds of restrictions on what NVIDIA can sell to China over the last few years, NVIDIA developed something called the H20 chip. A lot of you are probably familiar with this. It is...

slower interconnection and bandwidth chip, but still useful for AI. So it's equivalent to the hopper chips, but just a little kneecapped. So it's not too good. And NVIDIA created it specifically to be able to sell chips to Chinese companies that didn't violate U.S. restrictions. DeepSeek was developed on machines using H20 chips, for example.

However, according to NVIDIA's USSEC filing Tuesday last week on April 9th, so NVIDIA has known about this for a while, the U.S. told NVIDIA it would need a license to export its H20 GPUs to China. We talked on the show that it looked like they wouldn't need a license for that. Well, turns out, yes, they do. And.

A license is not likely to be given to them, just in case you're wondering. When they put a license commitment in these kind of cases, it's to make sure that the chips won't be sold. The filing indicates that NVIDIA believes it'll take a charge of about $5.5 billion because of this. That's as a result of various costs involved.

lost sales, of course, but also broken contracts. If they had agreed to deliver H-20s and now they can't, there are sometimes fees that they have to pay. There's inventory costs for H-20s that are now sitting in warehouses that won't be moved, etc. AMD also faces the same kind of expenses as it, too, is going to be prevented from exporting many of its chips to China. AMD estimates in its own SEC filing that it will cost them $800 million.

Nvidia sells a lot more chips to China than it does. I think it's its fourth largest market behind Singapore, Indonesia and the US. Meanwhile, Huawei launched its Cloud Matrix 384 chip domestically in China. That's comparable to Nvidia's GB200, which is a bigger cluster that uses Blackwell chips domestically.

Blackwell are more recent and newer chips than Hopper, and NVIDIA can't sell Blackwell chips to China. So this is China's domestic replacement. Cloud Matrix uses Huawei's Ascend chip, which is made by TSMC, but it could be made by China's SMIC if it had to. Each Ascend chip has a third of the performance of a Blackwell, but scales better. So you can use five times as many of them as you can Blackwell chips, and you can use

And that allows them in this Cloud Matrix 384 to double the compute of NVIDIA's GB200.

That also means almost four times as much power use, but that's not a limiting factor in China anyway. And in one last related tidbit on the chip stuff, uncertainty over tariffs and potential orders mean that ASML, which is a Dutch company that makes the equipment companies use to make chips, is reporting weaker than expected orders for its equipment in Q1. So we're already seeing a drop in orders for chip making equipment because of all of this.

Yeah, I don't often want to say I feel bad for giant corporations, but this is a tough era to do business in with constantly shifting parts. It's very hard to plan ahead. And these are some big numbers to eat currently. And we also don't know if minds will change in a week, a month, six months from now. Yeah, NVIDIA...

could be growing a lot more and therefore expanding a lot more and developing a lot more losing 5.5 billion dollars is going to slow it down won't stop it but it'll slow it down I'm

I'm more concerned about ASML because when you aren't selling chip making equipment, that means down the road, fewer chips are being made, which is going to reduce the market and slow the market and slow development. That is a more significant canary in this particular coal mine, in my opinion. Yeah.

Yeah, if the Americans start picking up some orders for their own domestic chip production, that's one thing. But that's not going to be a quick thing. That is a massive investment over time, continuing stuff promised from the previous government. Yeah, and when you're not buying from ASML, you're not buying because you don't think you're going to be making as many chips no matter where you are in the world, right? Mm-hmm.

The damaged undersea cable that links data between Finland and Estonia will return to commercial use on July 15th, according to Finland's Fingrid. Repair work on the S-Link 2 will begin in May. The Verge's Tom Warren says sources tell him that Microsoft has begun internal testing of Copilot for gaming in the Xbox mobile app, not on the Xbox itself.

Microsoft announced the project last month. It will act as an assistant eventually while you play a game. So it can give you tips, manage downloads and launches, all of that. The version being tested right now can show you your achievements. You could just say, show me my achievements, and it will. It can recommend games based on your play history. It can give you tips on completing games, but it's not doing that live while you're playing thing. And it can download and install games on the console.

Yeah, I did kind of giggle a bit when they're like, oh, like in the future, it can give you tips for when it sees what you're doing again in the future, give you tips for like Minecraft and Overwatch. And I'm like, OK, I can see it in Minecraft because then, you know, like the AI will be able to see what your resources are, like help you decide, like, OK, like here's the thing you need to build next. Makes sense. Overwatch 2, if you're playing a stacked team, what's it going to say? Well, good luck with that. Run! No, I don't know.

Hide, run, go away. OpenAI added an image library to ChatGPT that lets you see all of the images you have generated. You can also generate new images from within the library view. It's rolling out now to all users, paid or not. When you get it, you'll see Library listed below ExploreGPTs in the left side nav.

I think this is related to that report that OpenAI might be creating an image-based social network. If you've got a library of images, they might just want to make an easy way for you to share those images with other users. So that seems to add some credence to that report.

Kia showed off its 2026 EV4 sedan at the New York International Auto Show. This is Kia's first global electric sedan. It's already on sale in South Korea. It's coming to Europe by the end of the year. And U.S. availability is planned for either Q4 this year or Q1 2026 at the latest. No price announced, but it's expected to start at around $35,000. However, pricing anything in the U.S. this far in advance right now is a fool's errand. So we'll see.

U.S. ride-hailing company Lyft has agreed to buy Germany's FreeNow to gain access to the European market. FreeNow is operated by BMW and Mercedes-Benz in more than 150s across Austria, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Poland, Spain, and the United Kingdom.

Sheehan recorded record revenue growth of 38% in April, and Timu saw growth of 60%. These are both according to Bloomberg estimates. These sales were driven by U.S. shoppers stocking up on cheap goods in advance of the expectation of price increases. Both companies are expected to lose their small package exemption for goods less than $800.

However, there may be some ways around this. Suppliers in Guangzhou, China, report a sharp decline in orders by as much as 50% from Xi'an as it anticipates a drop in U.S. demand. Everybody's stocked up now, and then they're not going to buy in the next few months.

But also, Xi'an is working to move production out of China. Xi'an denies that it's doing this, but they're definitely ramping up orders from Vietnamese factories and possibly elsewhere. Restofworld.org reports that, according to the Nigerian Communications Commission, Starlink is the number two ISP in Nigeria by subscriber count behind Spectranet. At its current growth weight, it would become the number one in the country by mid-2026.

Those are the essentials for today. Let's dive a little deeper. We've got an ongoing story to follow up on. The Diavo Canyon Nuclear Power Plant in California is allowing some of its employees to use generative models in their work. Many of you may be imagining some sort of Homer Simpson-like scenario. So we talked to someone who works at a nuclear power plant to find out what they think. Tanner, thank you for joining me, man.

Hey, Tom. Thanks. Glad to be here. So the story in Gizmodo is that the Diablo Canyon Nuclear Power Plant in San Luis Obispo contracted with a company called Atomic Canyon. They are using a generative model chatbot tool called Neutron Enterprise to help workers

at least right now, understand technical reports and regulations in the broadest sense, anything publicly published. But eventually they want to allow people to use internal documents by scanning those in. As someone who works in this industry, does that sound right? Do I have that right? Mostly, I think.

My take on reading it is we have, I mean, internally and externally, like millions of documents, you know, going back to the 70s or 80s, depending on when these plants were built. We see it kind of as almost a search tool because you know that that information exists. You just don't know where to find it. So using a chatbot like this allows you to search all these documents that may be handwritten that you can't, you know, control F.

And then go find it and then have the chat bot summarize. But I think what's cool about what they're doing, it's not just like chat GBT that summarizes. It also gives you the document and says, this is where I pulled it from, which is where we would go to.

actually reference. Yeah. So I think that is one of the things that I find key about it too. They installed NVIDIA H100s in the power plant. They have trained this specifically on nuclear terminology to be good at nuclear terminology. And it's a narrow tool meant for that. It's not an all purpose tool. Like you said, you're not just going out to chat GPT and asking it what it thinks.

Tell us a little bit about what you do and then a little bit about how it would relate if you had access to something like this. Yeah, so I'm a shift technical advisor. So I'm the oversight engineer in the control room. And I just provide technical backup to the crews that are actually operating the plant. And if there was an emergency, I'm there to serve in that capacity to help them out just from a technical aspect.

So a tool like this would be insanely useful for me. I also evaluate because a lot of these components run 24 seven, three 65 and stuff breaks. So a bolt may come loose and I need to know what this one bolt does in this one component. So currently I go and I try and find a document that I think may relate to this bolt.

And it may take six, seven, eight hours to find the correct document. And this happens, you know, quite frequently where we're trying to just search stuff and we take a ton of time just looking for that. So a tool like this, if I could say, hey, this is the component, this is the kind of bolt and just using natural language, ask the question that I'm looking for and then have it provide me relevant documentation to then reference. It would save so much time. Yeah.

So when you say you're taking six hours to search, is that in a database already? You're not searching through physical documents, are you? Sometimes it can be physical documents. But most of the time we have numerous databases that we can look through and have all of our internal documentation that we look at.

And then the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, the NRC, they also have something like 56 million documents that are publicly available for regulation that we can go reference, which again, trying to find a needle in a haystack sometimes with that. But yeah, we have our own internal databases.

So I think the first concern, I think a lot of people would immediately understand like, okay, 56 million, even if you know what you're doing and you're familiar, that's a lot to wrap your head around. It's going to take a while to find stuff. Maybe this can speed stuff up. But could it give you wrong information? If it's summarizing something and it happens to, even though it's trained specifically on nuclear terminology, it happens to summarize something in the wrong way. Could that end up with you passing along the wrong advice? Yeah.

Uh, it could. Um, but I think that's when we rely on, we go through extensive training. Um, and we, it's kind of easy to tell if you read something, we say this doesn't seem right. Uh, the nuclear industry in general is very cautious. Uh, we always fail conservatively. So if something doesn't seem right, we reach out to other people and ask for help. Say, Hey, what do you think about this? Um, but I think, uh,

As opposed to relying on the summary, you can use that, the summary that it may provide of said document and say, okay, this sounds right, but now I'm going to go look at the actual reference material that it, that it looked at. And then, um,

Yeah. And that is one of the things that made me feel better about this reading this story is that it provides references to the materials. It's summarizing them so you understand which ones it's talking about, but it clearly lets you go right to the source material to double check yourself, which is good.

The other big objection that I keep seeing is people saying, okay, this is fine as it is, but where does it stop? Once you get those NVIDIA chips in there and you get people used to using this search functionality, they'll want to use it for other things. How do you feel about that objection? I think this is me speaking personally and just what I've seen, but

Like I said, the nuclear industry is very cautious. It takes a long time to implement anything. We use tried and true analog stuff for most of the time. So implementing something like this, I personally don't foresee AI being used for like anytime soon anyway for actually controlling the plant. I think you need...

a human's intuition almost to, and the training that we have, because there's very small nuances to things that happen that I think needs the human touch. But yeah,

I do think that the concerns are valid. It does need to stop somewhere. Um, and there's no clear guidance of what that somewhere is. I know the NRC a couple of years ago was looking at AI and then kind of stopped, uh, looking at AI and how to regulate it. Um, just politically speaking, that's what their, their objective was. But, um,

So there's valid concerns of where it stops. I think the way that they're currently using it, though, is valid and actually extremely useful. But if someone were to come to your workplace and say, hey, we're going to implement this, would you feel threatened? It sounds like your role is a little bit to be the person who double checks things. Would you be threatened at all? I know it would speed up your job, but would it mean that like maybe they need fewer of your job? Yeah.

No, I don't think so. The way a plant, I don't want to go into like the nitty gritty details, but the way that, that we operate, uh, we legally have to have so many people on site in the control room. And my position is one of the legally required, um, in the future, would it cut down on people? I don't think so. Cause again, you need to have my role, uh,

in like an emergency situation requires a physical human being. I think offloading a lot of this research stuff could free me up to go and physically oversee the people performing actions. So in a sense, it would be,

because I'm not spending time on a computer looking for documents. And instead, I can be out there performing an oversight function. Yeah. So I wouldn't feel threatened. No. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds to me like you feel like this is a good tool that could actually improve safety. But we do. You share those concerns of, you know, if we use it for anything else, we better be very careful about what else we use it for. Right. And just vet it out, test it.

make sure that you know you just have to draw a line in the sand in the sand and right now i think my biggest concern is that we're relying on the utility so like pg and e for instance to draw that line as opposed to nrc drawing the line who usually fails more conservative um so that would be my only i do hope some regulation comes out to say hey here's your guidelines yeah i

Well, Tanner, thanks, man, for chatting with us about this. I appreciate it. Yeah, no problem. Thank you for having me. I don't know if you have a place on the Internet you want people to find you or not, which is usually how I close these things. So I'll leave it open there if you want to tell anybody or pass anything along. Well, I'm on Blue Sky. That's Straven, S-T-R-A-V-Y-N dot X, Y, Z. Yeah.

Yeah. I just post dumb stuff on there. So it's really, it's a good follow. I, I follow you. I can, I can back that up. All right. Thanks again, man. Thank you. If you've got thoughts about this, we have lots of folks joining our discord to share their expertise with each other. You can link that to a Patreon account. That's how you get in the discord. Just join Patreon at patreon.com slash D T N S.

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We end every episode of DTNS with some shared wisdom. Today, Marlon is helping us understand.

So, yeah, on Monday, we mentioned the X cover phone from Samsung. It's a durable, rugged phone meant for enterprise use and has a replaceable battery. Marlon says, yes, please. I have loved all the previous models of this phone on the comment about it probably being high cost. All the previous models have been around the five hundred dollar range. So really not very costly. Featuring dual SIMs, removable battery, SD card. What's not to love?

I have never not had a removable battery and not planning to change now. The last X cover honestly charges fast enough and uses the battery so efficiently that I rarely change the battery, but still love the option. Never not had a removable battery. I'm trying to think of like the line of phones you'd have to follow to keep with that. But I respect the tradition. Way to uphold it.

Yeah, there were a lot of Android phones with removable batteries until five-ish years ago when that started to go away. So you would have had to go with these kind of specialty things like the Xcover.

I hope that that price stays around $500. Again, these are enterprise phones, so it's not like you'll be able to just walk into a store and buy one, but you still might be able to get one. And if it's even as much more advanced as it looks like it will be in this round, if it stays near that price range, even if it's $600 or $700, it's still a pretty good deal. Although, I appreciate Marla did

admitting this, I think a lot of people who are like, I wish I had a removable battery, probably rarely remove the battery or if ever find a need to remove the battery, which is why companies stop making them removable. But I get it. Just having the option is what a lot of people want. Gotta love the peace of mind. So what are you thinking about? Have you got some insights into a story? Share it with us over at feedback at dailytechnewsshow.com.

Big thanks to Tanner Goodman and Marlon for contributing to today's show. Thank you for being along for Daily Tech News Show. The show is made possible by our patrons. You could be one of them. Patreon.com slash DTNS. Also, we have a new music news show. If you want your music news in less than five minutes, be the smartest on music in the room. Check out DailyMusicHeadlines.com. Talk to you tomorrow. The DTNS family of podcasts.

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