Life Tracking, Journaling, and the Vision Pro with Devon Dundee
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Hello and welcome to another episode of App Stories. My name is John Voorhees and I'm here with Federico Vittici. Hey Federico. Oh, hello John. Buonasera John, I would say. Buonasera. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. How are you? We have another special guest today.

We are joined. I described him in the pre-show for AppStories Plus listeners. If you're not subscribed, go check it out. As an excellent all-around person and also our very patient editor. And I just want to reiterate this statement. We are joined by our incredible editor at MacStories and Club MacStories, Devin Dundee. Hello, Devin. Welcome to the show. Hi, guys. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you, Federico, for the kind introduction. Awesome.

Obviously. Yeah, yeah. Devin is also the co-host of Magic Rays of Light with Sigmund Judge. Of course, another podcast here at Mac Stories. If you go to macstories.net slash podcasts, you'll find details about Magic Rays of Light, which is all about...

Apple TV and Apple's services businesses, particularly though, you know, revolving around Apple TV and movies and other things that you find on TVOS. And, you know, also author for The Club regularly too. So welcome to the show, Devin. Thank you. Glad to be here.

So we have a few topics in mind for our conversation today, but I kind of wanted to start with this idea of the... Something that you wrote about before, the idea of life tracking. So this idea of being able to track different aspects of your life in a structured fashion, right? Using Apple devices. And I kind of wanted to go back to this article that you published recently

What was it? A couple of months ago? Was it at the end of the year, basically? This idea of like your custom year in review where you looked at your creative output with podcasting, your writing, your editing. And I wanted to get a little more into the details here. Like how exactly do you approach this sort of like comprehensive life tracking? Yeah, I think...

For me, it's changed quite a bit over the past year. To me, the most important thing, first of all, is to decide what's worth tracking and what isn't because you can get into an issue where you're doing way too much. And that's where I actually found myself at the beginning of the year. So I kind of did a full reset.

and started over. But I think I've gotten into a place that it's really worked well for me now. And it starts with Awesome Habits, which is my habit tracker, kind of just keeping me on track each day. And I literally only have two things in there. It's like the top things that I have to get done every day. And then I do some tracking and chronicling for Chores, which is an app that I know you guys are big fans of. And I kind of keep that separate. That's another thing too, is like keeping things organized when you're tracking. Yeah.

so that the data is actually useful. And so I find that siloing it really helps with that. But my main tool for tracking, especially live tracking, is the Collections app.

which I got really into this year. And the way it started was when I came on the Mac Stories editorial team as an editor, I wanted a way to keep track of the stories that I was editing just to know kind of what my output was. And it's cool to see who I'm working with the most and different opportunities I get there. And so I was just looking for an app that would let me save those links and organize them by publish date.

And I found it surprisingly difficult to find a link saving app that would surface that metadata. And so I turned to the collections app, which is basically an empty shell for you to just make a database of whatever structure that you want and track whatever. And so it's very open ended. So it took me some time to get into. But once I kind of figured it out and learned how to use it, that's when I started tracking my Mac stories editing articles.

And so, you know, I have the author and the category where it was published. And it's just been great for like at the end of the year, looking back and seeing what I've done, which, you know, I've been editing for 10 months now. So I've got quite a collection built up and it's cool to look back on.

Yeah, and I assume that this was made possible by the fact that collections is like very native to Apple platforms. And because like you could have used something like Notion, like, you know, a lot of people do these days. But knowing you, I feel like you maybe have a preference for something that feels more native and integrated on iOS, HyperOS, microOS.

For sure. And I also, you know, I mostly use Apple's other platforms other than the Mac, which sometimes the web-based tools don't work quite as well with. And so I wanted something that was going to be native. Collections has incredible shortcut support, which is how I've automated a lot of this too. That's another part of tracking that I think is important is making it as easy on yourself as possible. So yeah.

Another thing that I'm tracking in collections is my creativity log, which is literally a list of everything I've published on the internet since I started. And that was really fun to set up, go back and revisit some of those old projects. But it used things like RSS and other tools to automate that and pull that information in easily. So the shortcuts has been a huge part of using collections and tracking things that way.

Yeah, that's a great, that's a really great app. I've been using it actually for Mac Stories Unwind. I started late last year because I realized that we would get to the end of the year and do our roundups of our favorite TV shows, movies, video games, music, all that stuff in December. And I could never remember what I even watched in the first half of the year, let alone, you know, two weeks ago. So now every Friday after we record the show or after we release the show, I just record in there a very simple database that's just like

who recommended it, what the name of it was, what type of media it was, and the date. And then I can sort it by media type, and it makes it really easy to get ready for a show like that where we're looking back at what we picked over the course of the year. I sort of envy this organizational approach because whenever I try to log in,

The only category of items I've been able to consistently keep track of and log are video games. But whenever I try to log like TV shows, movies, like those music, like it always falls off by the wayside at some point. And it's something that like I would love to be more involved

precise about and maybe the solution is shortcuts like maybe removing that friction is the key to get it done like in a consistent fashion I assume

You know, I think more of the media trackers really should have the ability to share things out of them. That's one thing I've noticed with a lot of media trackers is they don't have access to the share sheet oftentimes. That's not universally true. There are some good ones that do, but that can be frustrating because sometimes all you want is the ability to get the like a link and a title out of an app so that you can put it somewhere else, a place like collections maybe. Yeah.

Devin, how does journaling fit alongside maybe tracking these aspects of your life? Because I know you're also like a pretty big Everlog user, which is an excellent journaling app that, you know, on iOS, most people maybe know Day One as a third-party app. And obviously now there's the Apple Journal app, which is iPhone only still, if I'm not mistaken. But Everlog has been around for a long time. And I believe it's like if you're looking for something that is Markdown native, you

It's the solution for those kinds of users. And I know that you've been using it for a long time.

Yeah, I think that journaling is kind of the flip side for me of tracking, whereas tracking is more quantitative. It's about the numbers. Journaling is qualitative. And so sometimes I'll even put some of the same information into my journal, but I just approach it in a different way when I'm revisiting it. So my creativity log, all of those entries actually go both ways. They go into collections and they go into Everlog. And

And same thing with my TV and movie tracking and sequel. All of that, I have a shortcut that puts it both in collections and in Everlog. And so I found that taking that dual approach is really helpful in being able to revisit the numbers, analyze the data. But also what I do in Everlog is on a daily basis, I go into its on this day section and I now have three years worth of

of entries to go back and revisit what I was thinking about that day, my gratitudes from that day. And thanks to journaling suggestions, I can revisit, you know, where I went and things I was listening to. And then I've got some custom integrations for what I was watching and things I made. And so for me, every day I get to kind of take a journey back in time and just revisit where I was. And it just makes the process of journaling for me

more enriching because, you know, there's an aspect of journaling that even if it disappeared, it's worthwhile because you're getting to process your day and your emotions and, and write things down, but being able to revisit it and see where you were, you know, three, two years ago, a year ago, that to me has been really, really enriching. And having the journaling suggestions in there has made that just all the more so.

What, how does Everlog set itself apart? Like what makes that the one that you've decided is the right app for you? To me, I've used several journaling apps, but for me, Everlog, it just fits with the way my mind works in terms of how I want to journal it. It uses Markdown, which is just so natural for me to write in now. That's how I do all my blogging and Mac story stuff. So it just makes sense to do that in Everlog as well when I'm journaling.

The layout and design of it is very fits with kind of the aesthetic of, of Apple's apps and the platforms there. So to me, there's no like cognitive dissonance or like mind shifting when you go into it. It's just very easy. It's simple three column layout and,

And I just appreciate how simple and straightforward it is. It offers some of those features like the on this day, which I originally thought I would never take advantage of and eventually did. But you can also kind of get those things out of the way if you need to and just make it a very, very simple journaling app. And the editor is an incredible Markdown editor. I've wished secretly that Wesley would just take the editor and make it a standalone app.

that I could use for writing because I really do like it that much. And so really, I mean, I can just get in the flow with it. And, you know, rather than thinking about the tool, I'm actually thinking about my day and the emotions and the processing, which I think is what journaling is supposed to be about. Yeah. How does it integrate with the official journaling suggestions?

So it's pretty much kind of what you've seen in other apps where you have that pop-up. It has a button for journaling suggestions, and it pops up Apple's kind of modal where it has, I think it has like suggested and recent, and you can kind of just pick from there. And it has its own twist on the design, I would say. What's cool about the journaling suggestions, and I don't know exactly how this works on a code level, but they can kind of adapt to

based on what kind they are and how many there are. And so when you're creating your entry in Everlog, like if there's three of them, they can adapt their shape to kind of look attractive, which I think is very, very cool. And so, yeah, if you've used the journal app, it's the same interface for adding them.

But then Everlog kind of has its own slight twist on the way that it tints them and it presents them. And then underneath, once you've added your suggestion underneath, then you can add texts like you would in any other Everlog article. Nice. Nice. Yeah. Um,

I want to talk about the Vision Pro. I do too, especially after what you just wrote for Club. So, Gavin, you reviewed Vision OS 2 in September and I know that you, I think in

In the entire Mac Stories team, you probably are the Vision Pro user right now. I think you are the person at Mac Stories who uses the Vision Pro the most and likes the Vision Pro the most. And so I kind of wanted to understand, like, what's your day-to-day usage like?

of the Vision Pro. We're entering the first complete year of the Vision Pro. I believe it was released in February of 2024. So we are approaching the first year, the first anniversary of the Vision Pro. And on a daily basis, how do you use it? And is it the kind of device, is it the kind of computing device you hoped it was going to be? Or over the past 12 months, do you think it's sort of become something else?

I think it's different from what I expected it to be, but it's met my expectations in a way that I necessarily didn't anticipate that it would. So, I mean, it's become my day-to-day companion. I honestly would consider it my primary computing device at this point, which is kind of wild for me to think about, but yeah.

It's just I bring it with me when I go to work. And thankfully, with my work setup, I'm able to use my personal device and get it done in my office there. I don't wear it around. I'm still a little insecure about that side of things. But when I'm in my office and working, I'm doing it in the Vision Pro. I bring it home. And it's how I do my journaling every day when I'm watching films and shows on my own. That's how I'm doing it.

So for me, it's become more like the multitasking iPad that I've always wanted, less so than taking advantage necessarily of the AR and 3D aspects of it. I mean, I do enjoy immersive video quite a bit, but for the most part, I'm using it to do the things that I was using my iPad Pro for before,

It's just, for me, a smoother and more focused experience because I can have my windows spread out the way I want them, and I can use the environments as I need to. So I've long been a fan of working on the iPad. I've actually been someone who uses multiple iPads for a while now. I have my iPad Pro and my iPad Mini, and I've used those in conjunction as well as using my iPad Pro with an external display. And for me, the Vision Pro has just become...

what I've always wanted that experience to be where I don't have to worry about window management. I don't have to worry about, you know, shaping and sizing things and working within constraints because I can just fill my room with these windows and get going. And I found it to be a really great experience. Yeah. And I feel like,

The key aspect here is that you're taking this to work with you. Like it's not the specialized media device that's like for me, for example, it's on my nightstand and that's what I put on when I want to watch some YouTube videos or some TV shows. But it's like it feels that media consumption role. Whereas like the key difference here is that no, you are fully embracing the platform. You're taking this to work and you're taking it back home and use it for something else. So it is your platform.

Like it is your computer. You do all kinds of things with not just one type of activity, but just multiple activities. And I think that's, you're probably the only person I know that does that. Which is not, I'm not being ironic. I think it's fascinating that you were able to stick with it for the past 12 months, basically. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. No, I'm really impressed by that too. And one thing I want to ask you about a little bit is the charging stand that you bought because you wrote for the monthly log for our January monthly log for club members about some accessories that you've bought for the Vision Pro that have made using it kind of less...

more friction free, made it a little easier for you to kind of get started and use it day to day, both at home and at work. And one of the three things that you talked about was a charging stand that really caught my eye because it looked like a really clever setup for charging. Because I do what I think maybe you used to do, which is

I have my Vision Pro in a case that I got on Amazon and it's, you know, most of the time it's zippered up in this hard shell case and it's a little bit of a project to get it in and out.

The Vision Pro doesn't live easily and nicely on our desks the way our nice and thin light iPads and MacBooks do. And so that's been my struggle is figuring out how to store it in a way that it's not a pain to get started with. And so this charging dock from Prism XR, it's called the Carina, and it just sits on your shelf and you set your Vision Pro in it. But to me, the thing that makes it really, really useful is that it also plugs into power.

And then they have these connection points, these pogo pins for your battery. You put this little adapter in your battery and you can leave it on because it also has a USB-C port.

So it can just live on there and it, and it looks like it kind of belongs there because it's color matched and you just set the battery on there and it charges. So it just, it holds your vision pro safely and keeps it charged and powered on so that it doesn't, you know, shut down due to inactivity, which is what I was running into when it was in the case, I would put it on and it would be coming up from zero. And, um, that's frustrating. I mean, I,

can't imagine every time I pick up my iPad Pro having to turn it back on. That would just kill my productivity. Some people do that. Some people turn off their computers every night and then they turn them on the next morning, which is something that I...

My brother-in-law does that. He was visiting last week. He was doing that last week. And I looked at him like, what are you doing? Every morning, they get the chime of the MacBook, you know? Yeah. When I was little, when I was little, there was like this moment of my childhood where my mom, for whatever reason, she got fixated on unplugging our televisions every night.

And because, because she read somewhere that the red led that, you know, some televisions, when you turn them off, the led stays on. And she was convinced that like it was consuming too much power. And so she would ask me like, when you're done with the TV, unplug it. So go behind the TV, unplug the TV. And the next morning I would go, I want to watch the next morning. I'll be like, I want to watch some TV. I try and turn it on. And I was like, Oh gosh, it's off.

And so I got out and this went on for about a year. And then I basically had a full on rebellion. I was like 10. I was like, mom, I am not unplugging and replugging the TV every night. So yeah, I'm sorry, Devin. That was a bit of a tangent. No, no. Well appreciated. And that was before the days of like smart plugs. So you couldn't even automate it. I mean, you had to physically get back. Yes, I am old. Yes. It was before the days of smart plugs. Oh, that's it. Oh, wow. Yeah.

Yeah, I was going to say the thing about your charging dock, I think that that little adapter is one of the keys. It's what's really neat about it is that it's, it's really just a tiny, a tiny thing that plugs USB-C into the battery has a USB-C pass through. But then when it leans on the back of the dock, those pogo pins are,

Make contact and it charges while sitting there, which, you know, that's pogo pins are something that has are not new, but I'm seeing them used a lot more and a lot more devices recently. And I think that that's a really nice way to use them for something like the Vision Pro.

It's really well thought through. I'd say my only complaint with the charging dock, which I don't think I included in the article, is that when you do connect those Pogo pins, the dock has a tiny speaker that makes this noise like it beeps at you, and there's no way to disable it. And so if I'm using my Vision Pro late at night and my family's asleep, I'm always worrying that that beep's going to disturb them. So far, so good. But the other issue I have with the dock, and it's not actually a problem with the dock,

But I only have one of them. And now that I've gotten used to it at home, I kind of want one at work. And I guess that's how they get you.

That is how they catch you. Darren, what kind of hopes do you have for Vision OS 3, I guess, this year? Yeah, the third version, I guess, presumably coming this fall and hopefully find out about it here in June. The first thing that I really want is to see Apple be a leader in what apps can look like on the platform. Like I said, for the most part, I'm using the same apps on my Vision Pro that I was using on my iPad Pro before.

Some of them are VisionOS apps. Some of them are iPad apps, which I appreciate the ability to run iPad apps when developers opt into it. But what I'd really like to see is Apple take all the first party apps, get them VisionOS native and show us like this is what our idea of a good VisionOS app is. You look at like the music app for VisionOS and it's really excellent and has some really cool interactions built into it.

But then the podcast app is just from the iPad and not optimized at all. So I want to see Apple embrace the platform fully with their first party apps and show third party developers, hey, this is what you can do here. And this is kind of where we'd like things to go.

Yeah, I kind of wonder if we hadn't gotten into this place where all of a sudden artificial intelligence was the big emergency for Apple's OSs, whether we would have gotten more of those first-party apps designed specifically for the Vision Pro. And instead, what we got was Apple intelligence because everybody was pulled off to work on that because...

It does feel like now that we're a year into this, more of the native first-party apps ought to be made for Vision Pro specifically and not just be mirrors of what's on the iPad. Yeah, that's probably what happened. And hopefully that some of those resources are kind of able to bounce back out. But they've had more time and more time to invest and get the platform where they want it to be. So I hope to see that with Vision OS 3.

What do you think of the new widescreen, the super wide screen mode? How do you like that? It's really cool. It's a little too much for me. Like, I don't want to be inside my mat. It's a little too wide. And the way it wraps around you, I mean, it's a great experience. I think I've gone to the middle version, which is it ultra wide, I think is the middle one.

I honestly don't mirror my Mac in VisionOS too terribly much. I know for some people that's like the killer feature and they use it as basically their external monitor, which is great. But for the most part, I'm running either VisionOS or iPadOS apps on my Vision Pro or I'm mirroring my iPad Pro, which I do quite a bit as well. Yeah, that's also what I do. It's not perfect, but it's surprisingly nicer than I thought. Yeah. Yeah.

All right. So obviously, John, you know, we do our little interrogation.

It's a friendly interrogation. That's what we call it. That's how we make it seem okay. Friendly one, a friendly one. Devon, you are the brains behind our edits of our stories. And I, obviously I need to ask you about your workflow. What do you use? What, like, what, what, when I send you 2000 words and I say, this story is ready for editing, what happens on your end?

Well, now that I'm on the Vision Pro, it's changed up a little bit. It used to be IA Writer was my text editor of choice, but it's not available on the Vision Pro yet. And so I've had to change it up a little bit. So now what I'm using is RuneScape, which is a great text editor. It's not a writing app, but it does have good markdown support for editing text. And so...

The thing that I miss most about iA Writer when I use my Vision Pro is the ability to quickly preview what that markdown is going to look like once it's rendered. And so what I've resorted to is I'll have working copy, which is, you know, my Git clients, how we sync our files back and forth. I'll have that in preview mode off to the side, and then I'll have Runestone in front of me.

And so that's how I'm editing. And then I'll usually I'll like force a save and then look over at the other window. And with the Vision Pro running two apps side by side, it's not a problem. I can have them both in full screen size and take advantage of them. But yeah, that's kind of what I've been doing.

That's a really clever approach, and it's all based on the idea that you have the same file system on a Vision Pro that you have on an iPad. So both Runestone and Working Copy are pointing at the same file, and you're just natively editing and previewing in two places, but it's the same document.

Obviously much better than when it used to be 10 years ago when I would have to write in one app and then send a copy of that document to a different application for previewing. Thankfully, now files, it's not perfect, but it's much better than it used to be. I didn't know that you were doing all of this in the Vision Pro. That's pretty cool.

Yeah, it's fun. And like when I'm editing an issue of Mac Stories Weekly, I have like eight windows open because we're linking to the web, we're linking to Discord, we're linking to the App Store. And rather than swapping between them, opening and closing, it's all just there.

and spread out in front of me. And I really like it. That's nice. That's very minority report right there. Yeah, yeah. It's just floating windows, Mac Stories Weekly, John's weird accessories over here. I like it. I like it. Do you have any interesting use cases for AI products that you're incorporating in your workflow?

I don't know that I have any necessarily for like editing other than maybe I'll send something to Apple intelligence for like just a final proofreading after I've read through something a couple of times, sometimes it'll catch something interesting. A lot of times it's more like opinion type things. And I'm like, Oh, that doesn't quite fit our style. So I'll skip it. But, um, I go to chat GPT a lot for questions about like what,

really nitty gritty grammar stuff i'm a grammar nerd i love like all just the very technical rules i know we've had conversations about this before yeah um the thing that trips me up the most is hyphens like knowing when to hyphenate a word it's yeah i have no idea i literally have no idea

Well, people have opinions too, believe it or not. If you Google like just any two words hyphen, there's whole, you know, forum posts about it and people going back and forth. Generally, I'll go to chat GPT and just be like, what do you think about this? And it'll usually tell me kind of, you know, the,

given wisdom on well if the adjective is here then you hyphenate it and if it's here you don't so very very tricky stuff but and probably stuff that no one else cares about but that's that's what keeps me up at night so uh i double check my work that way

Um, we've probably you probably have noticed that Federico and I have picked up bad habits from each other and do a lot of the same things like single versus double quotes. Like I picked up single quotes from Federico, I think. And and now I'm realizing that that's not the accepted American thing. That's more of a British English thing.

Well, you know, Mac Stories has our own style, and that's kind of been the fun of it is... We're consistent. Grammar changes over time. You know, the rules are different. And so it's really, I mean, as long as we're consistent, that's what matters. I guess as long as we're not driving our readers crazy, too. To me, it's clarity over anything else. As long as they can understand what we're saying, then we're probably good. If you want to... Here's the policy. If you have to be wrong...

At least be wrong consistently. Yes, exactly. I agree. I love it. We've been doing it this way for 10 years. Let's keep doing it. Yeah. Devon, we are on app stories. So the obligatory question is, do you have any other favorite apps you want to shout out?

I have a few, and people who have been following me for a while probably have heard about most of these. Structured is my day planner. I've called it before the operating system of my life. I wouldn't get anything done without it. Every night before bed, I get unstructured, and I plan out what my day is going to look like, incorporating my calendar and to-dos, and try to stick to that. At least it gives me a goal going in. If I get off, I don't beat myself up for it, but it kind of gives me something to keep track of, which I appreciate.

My app that I use most for podcasting is one by Jonathan Ruiz called Bridges.

And it's this really cool link saving app that lets you organize your links into folders. And a quality that's unique about it that I actually requested and have used heavily is the ability to manually sort your links. Because when you're doing your show notes for your podcast, you kind of want them to be roughly in the order that you're discussing them. And so that has been kind of game changing for me in terms of collecting the links. And then when it's time to publish an episode, I have a quick shortcut to

out of bridges that generates them for me. I have to mention New Reader because I reviewed it on the site. And I know it's still one that necessarily hasn't caught on with a lot of people, but I'm using it daily to keep up with RSS and YouTube and several other sources. And I'm free from the unread counts, which is, it's like a load off my shoulders. I don't have the unread counts in my life anymore. So you're using the Vision Pro, you're using the New Reader,

What else? What else is unique about you? Yeah, controversial. No, that's not... I got to say, like, I am warming up a little to the idea of putting together multiple sources. I still prefer to have my Mastodon client or my Blue Sky client. But I think for...

I think these services, the new reader and the upcoming tapestry by the Icon Factory, for example, I think for subsets of sources...

I think I can work with that. But the idea of, well, Reader is just going to replace my RSS, my Mastodon, my Blue Sky, my podcast client, that's what I struggle with. But instead, if I said, well, what if it was just like Mac Stories content? Or what if it was just a feed of, I don't know, everything from The Verge and Polygon, like those publications, like subsets of timelines? That's something that I can work with, I think.

Yeah. Devin, do you use Reader for Reddit at all? Because one of the things that I did recently, which was a huge mistake, was I imported a bunch of subreddits into Unread. Oh, I see.

You know it was a mistake. At least you know. It was a massive mistake because it's a terrible way. It was a terrible way to read Reddit. And I wake up in the morning and I've got thousands of Reddit posts in a folder. And it's like, what was I even thinking when I did that? I have no idea. It was a horrible mistake. Now I've got to take them all out. Definitely.

Yeah, that sounds like a mess. I have a couple in there. I think the key is it has to be something you can't miss. If you're using it as a source for something, then it's worth putting in there. Otherwise, yeah, I can't handle all that madness in my RSS reader. I think there's very little on Reddit that you can't miss.

to be honest. I mean, I enjoy reading through Reddit, but when you put an entire subreddit into some sort of channel, it's just a lot. I did it for NPC and I thought it was a good idea and it was just a horrible, horrible mistake. Yeah. Well, Devon, this was great. I...

I am very pleased with all the different workflows that you have brought to the show. It's a very, it's a fresh perspective because I think John and I, we have our preferences. I don't want to say that we are set in our ways because I'm always trying new stuff. John is always trying new stuff. But a Vision Pro user that multitasks with the Vision Pro and all these apps, like I think this will really resonate with the App Stories audience. So thank you. Thank you for having me. It's been a joy to be here.

Yeah, thanks a lot, Devin. I really appreciate it. You know, people can find Devin online all over the place. Of course, you should listen to his podcast, Magic Rays of Light with Sigmund Judge and his website, devindundee.com, where he writes there too. And of course, you'll find him popping up on maxstories.net and Club Max Stories too.

And Federico and I, we're of course there too. Mac Stories, Club Mac Stories, and the social media. And you know what? These days, the best way to find any of us, Devin included, is just search for our names on social media. That's how you'll find us. Yeah, you see our faces on YouTube, but then you match the faces to the profile pictures, and that's how you find us. It's pretty simple stuff. Pretty simple stuff. All right. Thanks again, Devin. And I will talk to both of you later. Bye, Devin. Bye, guys. Ciao, guys.