#49 - Hard Work Isn't the Enemy with Kathy Dunlay
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Welcome to the In Bloom podcast, where we are exploring what it means to design a life that you are so fulfilled and proud of. I'm Allie, your host, and today's guest is Kathy Dunley. She's the founder and president of New England Sales and Marketing with over 35 years in the tech world.

She's constantly asked herself the question, what does true fulfillment look like for me? And so I was so excited to dive into this with her. She did a ton of prep and she's thought about all of these questions a lot, as you can tell through the episode. Kathy shares that, honestly, I had higher expectations for myself than my parents had for me. And I was like, whoa, interesting. So she talks about the fact that she had more internal pressure than external pressure and what that looked like for her over time.

She brilliantly describes choice as an awesome responsibility, which I think a lot of people, I mean, me included sometimes can get into this mindset where it's like, oh my gosh, I have so many possible choices that I could make.

That's scary. Or like it's paralyzing, right? But she frames it as an awesome responsibility. It's like your career, you get to choose your relationships. You get to choose what you're going to invest in and on figuring out what kind of life you want to build, the hobbies that you're going to surround yourself with, the things that you're going to spend your time on and your money on all of those things you get to choose. And these choices really matter in shaping what our lives look like toward the end.

And that's liberating, but also overwhelming. So she sheds a little bit of light into that. And I love that because that is such a strong perspective and something that I deeply resonate with. And the other thing that I loved about this conversation was how practical this conversation was. Also, if you are on video, you can definitely see my dog walking past me. He just loves looking out the window. It's kind of a thing. But she talks about how

When you're in a stage of life, you should use the people around you as a compass. Like if you like the people around you, if you are in a situation where you are happy with the people around you, that is a really good indicator, a really strong indicator that you're on the right track. And basically that phrase, like tell me who your friends are and I'll tell you who you are. If you're in a place where your friends are not giving you life, they're not doing great things, they're not having or emulating or being the things that you want to be, then

then maybe reevaluate because something's probably off. And I loved that take as well. She also offers a refreshing take on hard work. And she says that, you know, it's okay to work hard. It's okay to push yourself when you consciously decide that you are willing to put in the work and the effort and the energy in order to make the things that you want happen.

That is good, but it should be a conscious decision. Today's episode is a good one, so I hope that you get a lot out of it. Let's get into the episode. You are excellent. You become unforgettable. Welcome to Indie. I am your host, Lisa M. Trent, and this is a Front Humanity Podcast.

Kathy, one thing that I wanted to ask you before we began anywhere else, before we began talking about your success, anything else is about your history. What is important for me and for us to know about you in order to understand where you've gotten to in your life?

Excellent question. And I've given it a lot of thought, even in recent years, because I think that this is an important question for everyone to answer. And the more you understand your own answer, the more you'll find more satisfaction in your life because you'll understand what drives you.

So I've always been very ambitious, very goal-oriented, and I've really embraced my career. And that's all like the superficial stuff. But then when I gave it more thought in recent years, when I've spent some time with family and friends, other things started to occur to me. And this is what I arrived at.

So my situation is that both sides of my family, my mother's side and my father's side, came to the United States from the same country around the same time. So my dad, his family...

came to the United States in the 20s. My mother's family came to the United States in the 30s. She was actually not born here. She came to Ellis Island in 1938. So this was a new, yeah, this was a situation, right? And it's not unique, but the fact that both sides of my family experienced it around the same time means that it was a big theme all over the place in my family. So what it also means is that both of those sets of grandparents,

had really thought hard about what they wanted their vision to be for their family. And once you, you know, once you think about that and you realize what they went through to enact that vision, then you start to think about your place in it. And if you think about how hard they worked and the planning that went into it and the time that went into it,

and you think wow they did a large part of this for all of us including me and once you realize that you are playing a role in a 100 year old family vision you take it seriously you don't want to drop the ball and i know that my cousins feel the same way

So when I made decisions or I make decisions for my career or my lifestyle, yeah, I'm doing it for myself. But what I've realized recently is that not so far in the back of my mind, I'm making those decisions in honor of them.

And so you just, you know, you take that very seriously. So that was my big realization. And you might be thinking, you might have thought of that sooner, but you just go about your life and you don't necessarily think about what happened 100 years ago in your family.

So that's sort of my big realization. It was revelation when, you know, when it occurred to me. And it's really had a huge impact on the decisions I've made around my education and my career. That's so fascinating. What country did they come from? Albania.

Wow. They supposedly the grandfathers knew each other somewhat. They weren't close, but they, you know, everyone knew each other and they were all coming to the same area. So my dad's family came to Southern Maine. My mother's family originally came through Brooklyn to Worcester, Massachusetts. And, you know, again, they were with everyone knew everybody from that part of the world.

And so, yeah, it was, it's kind of a fascinating thing and something that comes up in conversation a lot to this day amongst my family. Yeah, that's so interesting. And so you're mentioning that there's this kind of, in a sense, not pressure, but just like awareness that, you know, that you're playing a role-ish, but also you are a part of this story, which is a cool way to look at it. Yeah.

Were your grandparents close to you and did you know that story growing up or is this something that you can think back and realize that like the story lived through the way that your parents, I guess, went about their lives and the way that they taught you to go about your life and things like that? Right. So the grandparents, I knew my grandmothers. I didn't know my grandfathers. They both passed away before I was born.

or shortly after. So I, and I spent a lot of time with them. And so I knew their stories directly from each one of them. And each one of them, whether it was a, you know, one grandmother or the other, or my mother, my father, aunts, uncles,

Some of them were born there. Some of them were born here. Everyone had their own story. And so you, you know, that's how you learn it. And to your point, which is a really good one about feeling a certain pressure. I think that I, again, didn't realize this, but I think I did put a lot of straight up pressure on myself to succeed because I didn't want all of their efforts to be a waste of time.

And, you know, I wanted to continue, you know, to build on everything that they had done. And their plans were simple. They were hard, but they were simple. They just wanted education for...

for their children. And my dad's family was a little more specific and they, they wanted, you know, a level, a strong level of entrepreneurship. They wanted them to be business owners, which they were. So yeah, you know, there, there was a real, in my little world anyway, in my little life, there was a, there was a real pressure, I think, to succeed, which I have to say did not come from my

my relatives. I, you know, I had higher expectations for myself than my parents had for me. They were easy to, they were easy to, you know, to talk to. There was just, there was no real intense pressure coming from them. They were proponents of self-reliance, right? They wanted, you know, it went without saying that once that college education was done, I would not be living at home. I would be embarking on my own life and design it my own way.

But the real goal was just self-reliance. And it wasn't really more specific than that.

Interesting. So would you say that your definition of success, has it changed? Like what would you say their definition of success for you was? And then what would you say yours is now? Because you made that distinction between the pressure that they had on you and the pressure that you had on yourself as well. Right. So for that, you know, from their perspective, they were always saying things like just do your best. That was their big thing. They were constantly saying just do your best.

And that was kind of tough because my best was kind of good, you know, so hard to do my best. That was that was an achievement, you know, so that was, you know, that was their view in it. And it wasn't really specific. And I think they knew we were, you know, we settled in in southern Maine, and I think they knew that it was very likely.

that I would, you know, pursue. Well, they, they quickly saw that it was likely I would pursue something outside of me. So, but, but they didn't, you know, that didn't bother them. They just, they really, they were very good about exposure to opportunities. So whenever something came up, like here's an opportunity to travel, like in high school, we took a, you know, um,

Through, you know, through our classes, we took a couple trips to Europe, which is what's phenomenal and life changing. They they were proponents of that. They really encouraged that, whether it was, you know, going to Washington, D.C. or New York or, you know, just anywhere. They encouraged travel. And again, they didn't have like specific goals, but they just knew when there was an opportunity to try something that you should try it. You know, when you they should try something different. Why? Yeah.

Why? Yeah. Why do you think that was a value of theirs? You know, that is an excellent question. It was a strong value. That is a great question. Why were they and why were they so comfortable with it? Yeah, exactly. Because they sure didn't weren't they sure weren't encouraging me to stay close to home.

So it started really, really young with like small things. And it was, you know what it was? It was a family culture thing. And I think that if I could take a guess, I'm just guessing here. I think it came from the notion of not being afraid of adventure. Because if you think about the huge adventure that their parents were on or that they were on, I think they saw it as like, not a status thing, but like,

It was the least you could do for yourself. Be open-minded because you never, it was about being open to opportunity. So I think it was like that about opportunity and not only not being afraid of opportunity, but

the very least you can do is be open-minded when it comes to opportunity. And I think that's, that's, it came from the culture of the family to, to grab at new opportunities and try new things because you never know where that sweet spot for you personally is going to be. And I think that's the more we're talking about it. I think that's what they really wanted is they,

They wanted each of us, whether it's me, my cat, whoever, and the family, the younger generation, to experience what they could to land on things that interested them and that were important to them and that, you know, they took seriously. So I think that's really where it came from. And how I viewed success, there's a big difference between how I viewed it in the past and how I view it today. Huge difference. In the past, when I didn't have experience to draw from,

I took very seriously the people I was surrounded by, whether it was high school, college, the workplace. I judged the path I was on and how I was doing based on who was around me.

So I liked finding role models. I wasn't looking for mentors per se. I was looking for role models because role models can be anybody. They don't even have to know that they're your role model. They can be a famous person. They could be a dead person. They could be anybody. And so you can learn so much from role models.

So that's what I was looking for. If I was in a situation where I was happy with the people around me. So for example, right after college, I actually took a job in London for six months. And again, phenomenal experience. I loved the people around me. That's how I knew I was on the right path because I was impressed by them. I respected them. We had a mutually respectful relationship. I worked for a great company. And that's how I judged my success. Who was I in the room with?

And if this person or that person, if I was in the room with them, I knew I had to be doing something right. That was the old version of success. Today, it's different in that now that I have 35 years of professional experience behind me, I am focusing on how much of that can I draw from. So I'm happy when I'm in situations like this one where I'm

we can talk about previous experience, we can draw from it, we can leverage it. And that's incredibly efficient because if I can, in some small way, give someone an idea that helps them save time, save money, then I feel like that's a great thing. That's success. So that's how I see success today is to what extent can I draw from what I consider valuable experience.

Would you recommend that for, say, young people today to like to use as even just a small measure of success, quote unquote, the people that they're surrounded by? Because I do think there's something to that. Like whenever you there's that whole phrase, tell me who your friends are or you're the composite of the five closest people to you, like all of those things. Would you still say that's pretty accurate? Yeah, you know, I would.

I would. I think that the one caveat is this. You have to be, you might consider the fact that over time, you're going to change a bit and the people around you are going to change a bit. And that's okay. So if the person you've known for a long time, you know, you're next to them, you're having a great time with them, but they...

seem different than they might have been. Maybe some aspect of their, you know, their opinions have changed or their, um,

I wouldn't say their values have changed because that's pretty rare that you have, you know, a situation where people's values are changing. But if their opinion on something has changed, that's okay. So be prepared for that. And it doesn't mean that they're no longer right for you or you made a mistake. Like, gee, I thought you were, you know, a different type of person. No, these are just, you know, changes that happen over time. And remember that you have probably changed as well.

And that's okay. And you can still be proud to be, you know, an amalgam of those people around you, regardless of what their current version is, their current version of themselves or your current version of yourself. And I think you should remind yourself to respect that, you know, and they should remember to respect that in you as well.

No, I actually really like this point and the emphasis that they don't have to be the same as you, right? Like respecting and admiring the people around you does not mean that they're the same as you. It just means that there's something about them that is either admirable or aspirational or just good, simply good. And maybe it's one part of your value system. So the cool thing about values is like, let's say I have certain values that impact the way that I work and I have certain values that impact my

my relationships and there's this whole list of ways that a person could be admirable to you but if

if your friend group is and or the people that you surround yourself by the most are primarily made up of people that have some sort of admirable traits that you would like to take on, that that's probably more likely to get you on the right path than anything else. Because then, like, at least for me, I know it's always been impactful to be in front of people that are better than I am at something and just to be reminded every time that I'm with them, like, okay, that is the goal. Like, that is great. And I want to be better. And just like...

Just watching it like there's so much that happens whenever you are amidst a good amidst a certain type of character or a certain type of person that kind of seeps into the way that you also live, where you start to see like the micro movements, the micro habits, like all the micro things. Right. Like, for example, if there's a really, really high achieving student back to your conversation about grad school,

Like, understanding the way that they study and seeing that, like, it's not all luck and that, yes, they are smart, but also they mix these smart things with also habits. And, like, all of those micro things seem to be really, really valuable as well. Absolutely. Absolutely. And it is – the nice thing is if these role models of yours, if you really do know them, if they really are an acquaintance or a friend –

I find that the relationship, the chemistry is good. Then the relationship has a mind of its own.

And these are people that you can conquer the world with in your own, whatever your version of conquer the world is. You can do things with them. You would accomplish things with them. Whether you're working, you're in school together, you're, you're helping to get each other through school. You might, these might be people in your workplace. These might be the friends that you can do things with. You can travel with these friends. You can try new things with these friends. Yeah.

Right there. You know, it all depends on what you know, there's something about you that something about the two of you that it brings you together. There's something that you mutually value. And it sometimes goes without saying that you'll go on to be, you know, friends forever, literally. And these are the people that you can count on to accomplish things with whether they're big or small. It doesn't matter what they are.

You know, these are the people that you can move forward with. Because not everyone is going to be like that. And you have to, again, remember that that's okay. If that person you really expected to be that, you know, that best friend for forever doesn't turn out that way, then you

You just have to be okay with it because you can't change them and you can't necessarily, you can't change the dynamic between you. So as much as you enjoy those people that you know, you know who you can do what with and who you can't do anything with, except sort of enjoy each other from a distance, you know? And again, you have to be ready to accept that because these dynamics will probably change over time.

In your life, have you seen that happen as well, like this natural coming and going of friendships?

Absolutely. I say absolutely. I wouldn't have said absolutely maybe 20 years ago. When I was in my 30s, there was more consistency with who I had spent time with in my 20s or even teens. And then I can't explain it. It's something that I've discussed at length with certain friends, just when you really didn't expect a change. I mean, I have friends who they're in their 60s and they're seeing changes in friendships that they didn't

think would change and yet they do so and that's hard it happens be ready for it it's not fun but you have to accept it and so yeah it's really strange I and I to this day I can't account for where those changes come from

I don't know what it is. And you know that expression people use on you like you have their friends that you have for a reason, a season or a lifetime. I hate that expression. I hate it because I am a relationship person. I am, you know, loyal to those around me. And if I were loyal to you at age 16, I was prepared to be loyal to you at age 66. But you know what? It doesn't always work out that way.

So, yes, you have to be ready for those changes. And and also you might have heard this. This is sort of another sub point of that. I find it can be really challenging to develop new friendships the older you get. And so when they do come up there. See, my theory is that when you're when you're younger, there are big things you do together that bond you really like very effectively. Right. Like high school, college, whatever it is.

Really, Bonzi, you're going through the exact same thing at the exact same moment, right? It occurs to me like now, I'm like, wow, high school was, or college, any kind of school was so intensely social. Wow. You know, how did we do that every day? It must have been exhausting. And now think about it in adult life.

Unless it's in the workplace, how often are you going through that exact same experience at the exact same moment, you know, bonding, bonding against a difficult or terrible teacher or, you know, whatever it is like it, that kind of experience is more rare as an adult.

So, you know, just be aware of that. And if you are a relationship person, just continue to nurture those relationships that are very important to you because they're very hard to come by as an adult. How do you, how do you navigate the difference between those relationships that are important to you that like you said that some are just naturally going to fizzle out for some reason, like you can't explain it, you don't understand it entirely, but like

some relationships that were really important to you and you thought were going to be for a lifetime end up not being so? Do you just basically like as a relationship person and also like recognizing that as a truth almost, do you just say I'm going to invest all I can and then

you know, toss up your hands and say, I'll see what happens. Who knows? I can't be in control of that. Well, I don't think you have to worry about investing while you can because it's a two-way street. For sure. And so it doesn't feel like you're investing because you're being met halfway. So it doesn't feel like work. It doesn't feel like effort.

But when, you know, but when sometimes you feel like, whoa, wait a minute, there is an imbalance here. And right, because that can that can happen. It doesn't occur to you.

for a while, you know, you might, especially if it's, if you know, it's older friends, you're used to a certain dynamic from a long time ago. And you don't, you know, you might realize, oh my gosh, wow, why am I, why are things a bit imbalanced here? Why am I the one who's always giving? Oh, and it, and it might occur to you. And then again, it's okay. You have to

You have to realize that it's not up to you to carry the friendship or the relationship as much as you value it. And as sad as it is to see it change, you have to remind yourself that it's not all up to you to carry it. Here's another example. There are people in my network.

that I worked with for a long time, a long time ago. We very loosely kept in touch or maybe we haven't kept in touch so well. And then you try to go back and you reach out. You think you're doing the right thing, right? We're supposed to nurture our network. Isn't that what you would be inclined to do for a million reasons?

But sometimes you reach out to that person from the past and you've heard this expression. It's like you never, you know, it's like you never, there was no time elapsed. Like you picked up where you left off. But then there are other people who are going to be there for you. And it's shocking. And so how, you know, this happens sometimes. Like I've,

been in business for myself for 15 years. Sometimes I have consulting opportunities for people that I know would be really good at fulfilling a certain role or doing a certain project with me. And I've gone back and offered it to them and they haven't been interested, but they don't necessarily say it in the politest of ways. It might be they just send me a text, no, not interested. And I'm like,

What? Like we worked together for years. We knew each other very well. I can't believe I'm bringing you an opportunity for us to work together. And it's okay to say no, but at least like return my call. You know, do you really have to just send me a text saying, you know, so the moral of the story here is you'll be better off if you remember that to expect anything from anyone, right?

You never know. And sometimes people will disappoint you and other times they will pleasantly surprise you. But just remember to, you just don't know which direction something's going to take. And people don't always respond the way you think they will. And again, that's okay because you have to remember, back to your point from before, we may be behaving in a similar way. We may seem like we're coming at things from a similar way. We might have a huge portion of our lives in common. But

We're not the same on the inside necessarily. So you don't know what you're going to get. So be prepared for anything and everything will just be easier. Be prepared for anything and don't assume you know how someone's going to respond to you down the road. This is really fascinating. One topic I have not gotten to in the podcast yet is actually friendships. And it's a very important topic because I know that

Like we are social creatures, right? Like humans have survived for a long time because we are social. We formed tribes. We built societies that were good for all of us. But there is this truth that like sometimes your friendships don't last and or sometimes the relationships that you thought were great end up turning out not so great. Yeah.

One question that I had for you, it sounds like at least you've moved quite a bit. Is that true? Moved from sort of home to home, but I guess it's been sort of, you know, Southern Maine, Massachusetts, London, Massachusetts. So it hasn't been in a big area. Okay. So I, you know, I do, I have tended to stay where I've been for a long period of time. Okay. Okay.

Well, have you seen that movement change your friendships as well or no? Oh. Interesting. But, and this is really important, more so than ever before, I am keenly aware of culture wherever I am. And I have this new phrase I use a lot in my head, and it's culture is very strong. You probably can't change it.

And it doesn't matter whether it's corporate culture, the culture of a family, the culture of a town, a state, an area, a country. There's cultures and subcultures. And in my more recent experience, because I've pondered like, why do certain relationships go certain ways? And there are people that I thought I wouldn't necessarily be friends with, and I was. And the opposite is true too. People that, again, you have so much in common with,

Yet you're not friends and you can't figure out why you're friends. And sometimes it happens like right in your own backyard. And I call these people next door strangers. And, you know, I've been in neighborhoods where the people just don't know each other, nor do they want to. And that was primarily in Massachusetts. And I do, you know, primarily live in Massachusetts.

Meanwhile, as I said, I'm from Southern Maine. My experience there has been completely different where it was just a lot easier to get to know your neighbors and you value the relationship. And it's just a totally different culture. So in my experience, it's not the moving that made the change. It's

the culture of where you are that determines how you're, you know, what the dynamic is going to be with those around you. And maybe there won't be any dynamic at all. Or, you know, maybe it'll be very easy to come together and you bump into people on the street when you're walking your dog and it's very easy to bond with them. Very easy. And it's wonderful. And I love it. And I welcome it. I know not everybody does. So yeah, it's not the moving that change things. It's the culture of where you live that makes a huge impact.

Hopping off of this, what has the most fulfilling relationship of your life taught you about relationships? Oh, that is a great question. Don't assume anything. Don't assume that you're thinking the same thing at the same time. And don't assume that just because you have a really fulfilling relationship, don't assume that you're going to have the same responses to things that come up in life.

So whether this, you know, really close relationship, like I had a really close relationship with my parents. I was really lucky. Again, the grandparents, I was really fortunate. Lots of relatives that I look back on today and I feel I'm more thankful for my family in those relationships today than I think I've ever been because I learned through seeing other people's situations just how fortunate I was.

And, or am, and that, you know, I found myself in a situation that was right for me. And, and that's sort of what I learned from it though, is, you know, you're, you're next to that person and you know them so well, and they know you so well. Never lose that respect at, um, and never lose that ability to listen to them really carefully and listen.

You know, it can be a real problem if you just assume that you're going to have the same opinions on things and the same reactions to the same, you know. So and that and that can go for your, you know, for your your spouse as well. If you know, if you have a spouse, just don't. You know, one of the things that I've learned is even though we might have a ton in common and a ton of the same values, you

Sometimes you can react totally different to things and want something that's totally different. So be aware of that. Don't just assume that because I discount something that he's going to discount something. He might respond totally differently. And yeah, sometimes it's not ideal.

But it's okay because we each have our own lives and we have to be satisfied with our own lives. So we have to respect, you know, that what the other person wants can be very different from what we want and what we think they want. You can be wrong. So be open to the fact that you can be wrong. And that's, and again, it's okay. Just be aware of it. I love that. And I also, I think like something that I've thought about a couple times is just the idea that

If you respect somebody enough to marry them and you also have similar values, if they're coming to a different conclusion, it's because they're thinking differently. And maybe it's valuable to understand why they're thinking differently. Like, what are you considering or in what way are you considering this that I am not? Because I do respect your take and I also respect your values because they are my own in a lot of ways. But like you said, the curiosity angle is so important there.

Yeah. And especially, you know, as you were you were saying, these are, you know, thinking of really important relationships. And it's so easy to think you might actually, you know, you might actually know the person better than they know themselves, which adds more layers of confusion because the person that they know themselves is.

can be a little bit different than the person that you know. So there's just so many layers of confusion and it's hard and it, you know, it can make things really, really tricky to navigate, but it's also interesting and it never gets boring. And that's why these people that maybe you've known your whole life always will surprise you. So hopefully it's, you know, more often a pleasant surprise than anything else, but.

Yeah, I think this whole line of consideration, and if you apply some of this to the, whether it's your personal life or your professional life, kind of, it's all kind of the same. You have to give the same considerations. And yeah, it's fascinating stuff. And also, if I could just add this one thing, Ella.

And this is really, tell me what you think of this concept. Because every once in a while, like my husband and I are really good at analyzing sort of changes in society over time. And we're not like excellent historians, but we've learned what we can on YouTube and whatnot. We really enjoy watching kind of historical events.

historical videos that remind us of maybe what we forgot that we had learned in school or things that we never learned. And here's something we've given a lot of thought to. Just in the last, I don't know, let's just say in the last 150, 200 years, which is a tiny, tiny period of time, right? Really tiny. Mm-hmm.

There are some basic societal things that have really, really changed. Now, I am kind of aware of some of these things because I'm in a historical area, right? I'm in the greater Boston area. So, so much, you know, revolutionary war history is here. And so we're always being reminded of things. And, you know, we're in these towns that were founded in the 1700s and...

We've learned, you know, a lot of new things about how people lived right here, like right, you know, where our house is right now. And it's fascinating. And if you think about like how day to day life has changed, neighbors really needed each other in the past, just like people had pets.

They weren't really pets. They were work animals, right? If you had, you know, even like a German ship or whatever you had for a dog, they were there for your protection. And, you know, you relied on your neighbor for whatever they were good at, and they relied on you for whatever you were good at. And cash had less value than it does today because it was all about day-to-day survival.

Right. And, you know, even people having children so they could work their farm. So that's a lot of the lifestyle we were surrounded here in the in the past of the of the greater Boston area. And this is a really common thing right all over the agrarian. I'm getting the word wrong. It's like farm farm based society. The agrarian. Yes.

So if you think about that, the whole the basic simple takeaway is that people needed each other more than than they do now. And now we can lead a very private existence. And we've been able to do that for several decades now. Not not a long period of time, but like several decades.

at least since the turn of the century or, you know, maybe, I don't know, 20s, 30s, 40s is when it really started to get more independent, if you will. And so just think about that for a minute because it's really important in that it forms current dynamics

And think about how different your relationship is with people today compared to how it was in the not so distant past now that we don't need each other anymore. So then it's really up to you to continue the relationship or not because you want to or you don't want to. Now, I think actually this brings up an interesting thought is have you ever experienced this, this, this, I don't know, thugism?

thought inside of your head while you were in work but the I don't want to need other people like I want to be able to do it on my own or not because I feel like that's a consistent thought that I've heard and also sometimes have with myself or like I combat in myself is like this idea of I don't want to need anybody else in order to do this or I don't want to have to ask and I don't want to have to bother anybody and like this this almost pressure to

be able to create all of this on your own. But then on the flip side, what does it do to you? It makes you have to carry this burden on your own. And then we were able to go much further together in the past. So why are we almost handicapping ourselves in a world that is so connected by almost this stubbornness to do it on our own? Absolutely. And that's probably one of my greatest weaknesses as a leader is I hate delegating. I hate it.

which, you know, is bad thing to not want to do. And it's so funny because when I do it, it doesn't always work out well. So it's not like I'm sitting back saying, you know, it's better to, I do end up walking away saying it's better to do it myself. And I am fiercely independent and I have been fiercely independent in my career in fear and not that I haven't enjoyed thoroughly collaborating with others, but it has to be the right others.

Otherwise, I'm just, you know, I just rather do it myself. So yes, to your point, I think that many of us are fiercely independent and only getting more so. And as you said, you can go further with others or, you know, faster alone, but further with others. And that's always been hard. I just always remind myself that. But yeah, I think that I do find myself wanting to just

do it without others and continue and maintain my fierce independence. Because at the end of the day, when I look at so many different scenarios, that independence has worked out to my advantage. It really has. Just in my situation, it may not be for everybody. And I'm just saying yes to your question. And I think independence can be a very good thing. And it has been a very good thing for me.

Interesting. Yeah, that's really interesting. I had a mentor at one point tell me, because I definitely have that mentality where like sometimes it happens.

it is harder for me to have the same expectations for somebody else as I have for myself for say a project or for say something. But I guess that's part of the like great managing idea, right? Would you say that you feel like you're a pretty solid manager? I think I am. And the reason is I do like to manage from a from a

place of experience. So I like to think that I can help those I'm managing be more successful and I don't enjoy being micromanaged. So I know how important it is to not be a micromanager.

I think that's incredibly important, especially today where, you know, people can achieve such independence in the workplace because they have access to more things and more resources than they might have in the past.

So, you know, that's something that I bring to what I prefer to work with people who I feel I can add some value to the process. I think it's, for me anyway, it's a little trickier when you're managing someone for something that, for which you don't have direct and relevant experience. And it's okay. And if you're collaborating with the right person, they can actually make it really easy.

But if you're collaborating with the wrong person who wants to hold their experience over your head and be down on you for not having that experience and they're not able to accept, hey, you know, in this situation, this is just the situation. I'm overseeing what you're doing. And some people aren't okay with that. And like I said, others make it easy. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, what does easy look like to you? So like if you were giving a recommendation to somebody that's coming and building themselves up and being managed by somebody, how are you a person that somebody is managing that they will remember and say, you know what, that that was a great person underneath me. It all stems from respect. And I think that it goes without saying, I think it's a chemistry thing. I think people can sense whether you respect them or not.

And just like I can feel it the same way back. And if it's a mutual respect situation, we're always going to look back on that collaboration fondly. If the respect is missing, oh, it's not good. It's not good. You know, I'll give you a really specific example. So when I started my consultancy 15 years ago, and I assumed that

Well, I was going to experiment with a couple of different models. And initially, I was fortunate and I got a ton of work and some really great clients. And I couldn't possibly do everything myself, which is fine. In this situation, a couple of contractors had been recommended to me. And so I brought them on and it was, from where I sit, a really great project. And long story short...

Within very short order, they attempted to, for lack of a better way of putting it, steal the client from me. Wow. Yeah, it was stunning. It was stunning and confusing.

And I thought we were on, you know, I sensed from, from the beginning, like pretty early on, I sensed hostility from one of, one of these contractors in particular, I just sensed hostility. And what was there to be hostile about? I don't know. We've never had that conversation. And long story short, I, you know, had this discussion with the client and

They were aware that this, you know, that this person was trying to like pull away from me and they had experienced something similar in their work experience. And they just, you know, the client said, don't worry about it. Nothing is going to change. So that was great that I had the respect of the client and I didn't end up losing them.

It's all good. But it was just obvious that that respect wasn't there for whatever reason. It was really hard. And, you know, we were, the project involved stuff we were all very familiar with. So it's not like they had a skill set that I didn't have. It wasn't one of those situations that can get awkward. It wasn't. And you know what? They, for whatever reason, didn't want to work with me, or I should say, didn't want to work for me.

You know, they didn't want me to in any way oversee their work. That's so interesting. Kind of switching gears a little bit, but also in the same vein, what would you say is the biggest challenge that you faced either professionally or personally? Okay, good question. And I have a very specific answer because it's,

Well, you'll see why it's so specific. So I've had this conversation with friends and this big challenge, and this is from a career perspective or perspective, we call it the other 50%. And what we, yeah, what we mean by that is so many of us have experienced this. When you see this, when you see patterns over time, when you've worked enough, you know, enough years and with enough people and for enough companies.

And what we've seen is about 50% of the time when you get a new job, you have landed in a really great situation where, you know, all systems are go, mutual respect everywhere. Everyone's got the right background. Everyone's easy to collaborate with. All the good things, all the good, you know.

And you have a great time. And these are people you're probably going to know for a very long time because they're going to become kind of friends as well as colleagues. You know, 20 years down the road, they'll still pick up the phone if you call and vice versa. Then there's the other 50%. The other 50% of the time, you're going to land in a situation that's wrong for you.

And the respect isn't there. The right backgrounds aren't there. There's a problem with, you know, where you fit into things or don't fit into things. Leadership is off. Many things are wrong and many things are going to make you unhappy. And you have to decide that you have decisions to make.

Can I tolerate this? Should I tolerate this? What's really wrong here? Should I, you know, should I jump ship? Should I, you know, am I getting something else from this? Am I able to contribute something else to this that make it worthwhile at the end of the day? And you have to decide that. It's a very challenging situation to be in because this is your life. This is where you're spending most of your waking hours working on this with these people.

And you have to, you just have to decide what you're going to do because you've landed in a bad situation that can't go on indefinitely. So that's challenging. Yeah, that's really great. How do you determine when something is bad versus maybe say challenging or maybe say like there are a couple of growing pains, but it's not necessarily bad. Right.

That's a really important thing to consider. Only you can make these decisions because only you know what your buttons are, you know, like what makes sense to you and what doesn't make sense to you. And I find it's usually painfully clear. And I often, when I am advising someone, I often encourage them to really give the situation a chance before they walk away, unless it's painfully obvious.

Because there might be something about that situation. Yes, your boss might kind of be annoying, but you're getting so much out of the work and you're contributing so much that you should put that boss annoying boss aside, you know, so only you can decide these things. And I usually advise on the side of don't jump too quickly. Don't walk away from it too quickly.

and think really hard bigger picture. So like I said, it's not at all unusual for me to encourage people to really give something a solid chance before walking away because you never know that situation that you think is terrible may not actually be so terrible. And frankly, if you don't really give it a lot of thought, what's gonna happen is that challenge that you're facing, it's gonna follow you.

you're never going to get rid of it because you didn't properly deal with it. So it's going to follow you from job to job or, or, you know, group to group. And that's, you know, that's how you can, you have to really, really think through what the challenges are and if it's worth it or if it's not worth it. And believe me, I've been in situations where it was painfully obvious and other situations where like situations where I had, I wanted to get out immediately. First opportunity I was out and,

And then I had other situations where it was like, you know, getting a lot out of this. I'm contributing a lot to this. And I, you know, and I stuck it out for like five years. Wow. And how do you like, what are some good questions and or ways to figure out if the problem is actually you? Do you, is this a pattern?

Is it a pattern? Is the simple question, the simplest way to figure out, is it you? It's probably very rarely something 100% you, but it can be mostly you. And ask yourself that. Is this, have I seen this before? No, I'm getting this again. No, I'm getting this, you know, co-worker who's doing X, Y, Z. Oh no, I'm getting this boss who's treating me in this way.

And if it's a pattern that you have seen before, then think about your role in it.

And, and again, and it's funny because I haven't, you know, I have talked to people about this, who have tried been trying to figure it out. Is it me? Is it me? Is it me? And usually I come back to them with, with these are the questions, you know, to figure out if it's you or not. These are the ask yourself this, and you have to be honest with yourself. And also, in that same vein, I sometimes encourage people to look at the situation differently. Right.

Right. So sometimes I feel like it's easy when you're in the situation to forget what you should be grateful for. So when I'm advising someone, it's not unusual for me to say, but remember, you're getting this out of it. You're getting that out of it. And so I find myself often reminding people what they might want to appreciate because it's easy for them to forget. I like that a lot. So.

Whenever you look back on your life and all of these things that you've done and all of these experiences that you have had, what would you say right now is the most fulfilling thing that you have experienced so far? Where I am right now, what I consider incredibly fulfilling is more so than in the past. I feel like I've graduated to this point where I have more control over my time, my personal time. Mm-hmm.

or even my professional time, frankly, all time. And that is what I find most fulfilling because at a moment's notice, I can decide where I'm going to put that time. Is it going to go to work? Is it going to be, you know, am I going to work all day, all night on, you know, getting something accomplished? Or can I just stop and for this afternoon, go, you know,

hang out with a friend or, you know, spend time with my elderly dog or, you know, maybe my husband, I can just go, go do something. And to have that flexibility, which has taken a long time for me to graduate to, that's, that's why I find it most fulfilling is because every time I give myself permission to do something fun with my time, to do something personal with my time,

I'm reminded, you know, when I start to think, oh, gee, I don't know if I should take the time to do that. I'm reminded of so many examples come through my head about when I didn't have that control. Or I just think about, you know, the, I don't know, whenever I was, you know, doing something for work that was just really challenging from a time management perspective. Or I think of that time I was, you know, getting home from a business trip at eight o'clock on a Saturday night. Or you just think of all those horrible experiences

Things that you, you know, when you didn't have control. And so that's what I find incredibly fulfilling is control over your time. Thinking back to all the things that you gave up, you were talking about the coming home on Saturday late at night and giving extra time to work.

Are you happy that you made those choices? And how would you recommend that younger people think about the sacrifices that they're willing to make in order to, say, free up the freedom and the time in the future? You're exactly hitting it. It's I I.

Don't completely regret it. There are a few things. Yeah, maybe. Maybe I, you know, stayed too long in a job or, you know, let someone kind of, you know, kind of take control over my work life when I shouldn't have. But when you have to remind yourself, there is a reason why those things happened and happened the way they did. Yeah.

So don't feel bad about it and don't regret it. And there's a reason why you chose to work that day or that night or that weekend. There's a reason why you put off, you know, I'll share just, you know, as we close out, there's, you know, sort of a little trivia that I'll share with you. There are

First, for whatever reason, I haven't been great at taking real vacations. And I define a real vacation as you fly somewhere, you stay for a week and you fly home. Now, I have done long weekends and I admittedly have overworked a bit, admittedly. But the interesting fact is that real vacation, fly, stay, fly back. I haven't done that. This is going to surprise you.

I have not done that kind of vacation since July of 1999. Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. Why?

a billion different reasons have come up over time there you know I've worked in the tech sector it's an unstable sector there have been times where I felt like if I went away for a week I'd lose my job or you know it that that was a large part of it for many years as crazy as that sounds and I wasn't you know I wasn't the only one doing this or you know um you know my my husband doesn't

do it either. Like he's not a vacationer either. So you put us both together, it's not going to happen. So you know, it's it's culture. My family weren't big vacationers. Very rarely did we you know, did we go anywhere? So that's, you know, do I regret that? Yes. Am I trying to overcome that? Yes.

But as far as like it, you know, advice to the younger set, then like I said, you've, you know, only you can decide what is right for you. Like what I just told you is mind boggling and I don't blame people for, you know, it boggling your mind. That's crazy. But it's where I've landed. It's a weakness and I'm trying to overcome it. So, you know, you have to decide, but do I overwhelmingly regret my approach? No, I don't.

front loading like that to give you more flexibility later in life, you know, you, it may lead to an early retirement and it will almost certainly lead to that flexibility that I'm enjoying now. So it's not to say I'm not working my butt off. I am, but I'm doing it in a more controlled fashion and, and everybody benefits. My family benefits, I benefit. It's, it's wonderful. So, but do I regret the approach? No. And I do encourage people,

It's not a bad thing to say, you know what? Work hard. It's okay. Work hard up front in particular because you're going to accelerate your learning and you're going to accelerate your opportunities. And it's a good thing. There are different people that take different approaches to work. And this has been my approach. And I can't say that I regret it. Yeah. And I mean...

I think that's the most important thing is looking at your values, back to the values conversation, saying, okay, what do I want most? And then what am I willing to do to get there? And whenever you are upfront about those trade-offs, then you're able to show up for them. So my final questions are always rapid fire questions and I will throw three at you. So are you ready? I'm ready.

Okay, question number one. What is something that as you've gotten older and you've gone through more life and you've had more life experience that you wish you thought about differently in the past? Oh, I know you said rapid fire, but it's... Go for it. Go for it. Sometimes I...

It might sound counterintuitive, but sometimes I wish I had done more with my time. So I'm not talking about just doing more work. I'm just saying, you know, I wish that maybe I had spent time with different people and, you know, learned from others and, you

you know, gave other people that I wasn't, you know, they were friends or they were acquaintances, but maybe I should have given them a little bit more of my time because they were, you know, I'm thinking back, there were some really great people that perhaps I should have spent more time with. So be, I guess, be more open-minded in how I spend my free time.

I like that a lot. Second question, what advice would you give to young women looking back at your life and your career? It's okay to carve your own path, even if you, you know, find yourself not taking a real vacation for 26 years. Like, it's okay. There's, you know, there are certain things that I feel I did because I

They were societal expectations, but they were important societal expectations that, that helped me get where I wanted to go. You know? Um,

Then the other side of that, there's the societal side and then there's the personal side. And I would advise people to respect both sides. You know, it's okay to work hard. It's okay to do things that maybe you don't love, but they're expected of you. It's okay to stick it out at that job that isn't ideal, but you're still getting something out of it. And I say these things, Ella, because I think now we're here to...

a lot of the advice out there, as I said, it's about self-care. And I feel like it's a lot of people have a, like work has a bad reputation and work need not have a bad reputation. And that's, you know, that's what I would recommend is it's okay to work hard. And you know what? One thing that I've walked away with is everything,

seemed a lot like harder than it should have been for various reasons. Maybe people were holding you back. We don't know why. Maybe, you know, we were laboring against a broken business model, but you didn't know it or your company didn't know it. There are things that come up that make career progression or life progression or goal achievement sometimes harder than you think it should be. And my message is it can be. It's not you.

Accept that your path may be difficult and be prepared to face it head on. It's okay. You know, you won't burn out. You know, bad things won't necessarily happen. You will have guardrails in place or put guardrails in place to make sure that that doesn't happen. No, you don't. Just because I'm not exactly a role model when it comes to vacationing,

But also, you know, you don't also need to vacation three times a year to be happy. True. That's my message is don't be afraid of work. It's not hard work.

I love that. And I also use, you mentioned this at the beginning of the podcast before we started recording, but you were saying, and you kind of iterated this in, in what you just said is you have more control over your life than you think you do. And just going into it with that and understanding like, okay, if what you determine is very important to you is the impact that you're going to leave through whatever work you're going to do, and you're willing to give certain things up because of it, or

say your perfect life does not look like travel, that is okay. You know, and you get to control that definition and also the way that you show up every day and also the way that you react to things. And it's honestly just disposition. I think that's something that's been impacting me recently is recognizing that my attitude toward things, whether it be challenge in a moment or literally anything else, it's habitual. Like if there's something wrong with it, if I need to make my...

attitude, outlook, my initial reaction different. I need to focus on the habit of that. What is the thinking? I think you mentioned this a while ago, but sit with yourself, ask yourself why a couple of times and then figure out the real root cause of it. And you'll usually be able to do a lot of work toward the positive there. Absolutely. And don't be afraid also to ask those around you. So you might have friends or family that you can ask those questions like, what do you think

Why do you think I what do you think I care about? Like, what do you think is important to me? And they might tell you. And then you can say why? Like, ask them the questions that you're also asking yourself because they know you well and they might offer a new perspective. So don't be afraid to ask those around you what they think you're like and why. Mm hmm.

Yeah, I've done that a couple times and I always get very interesting answers. Like I'll tell them with a caveat, like whatever you say is not like truth, but I just want to know what you think. Like and yeah, you definitely figure out some really interesting things.

The last question that I have for you is lots of women and I mean men as well, but since this podcast is geared toward young women, lots of young women have this paralysis in terms of fear of choosing, right? It's like, am I going to choose right? And this idea that you have control over your life, it can be extremely empowering, but it can also be extremely stifling and scary. What advice would you give there?

Well, I have this, I don't know, I guess I have a lot of these little phrases that I play in my head that have been put there over time from my experience. And one of these phrases is choice is an awesome responsibility. And I mean that in two ways, right? Like it's awesome. It's wonderful. It's great. It's a good thing to have a choice is awesome.

But it's also an awesome responsibility. And that's how you have to think of, in my opinion, that's one way to think of choices is they are awesome responsibilities. So don't be careless. Give them a lot of consideration. I understand that it can be paralyzing, but have some faith in yourself.

that you do know yourself somewhat. You'll get to know yourself better over time, but have faith in yourself to make choices that make sense for you.

Don't, you know, you're not starting from a blank slate. You do have some experience. You do know what you like and what you don't like. So have some faith that, you know, that you're going to make choices that are right for you and that feel right for you, that look right for you, that are producing the results that you want. So that's sort of the bottom line. You know, you know, you know the answer.

you probably know the answer. You might not like it, but you know it. So don't be afraid of your own choice. I love that. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. This has been a lot of fun. And I think there were a couple of really, really core messages in there. So I hope that a lot of people got some good things from that. Thank you. Thank you.

We all want to help one another. Human beings are like that.