#53 - How Do You Know When It's Time to Trust Your Gut and Pivot? with Sheila Cosgrove
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Welcome back to the In Bloom podcast where we are exploring what it means to become the most incredible version of yourself, the most incredible woman that you could ever dream of being. I'm Ella, your host, and I'm on this journey with you.

The pressure to have your entire career figured out in your 20s is so real. But what if the best path forward is not a straight line at all? What if it's not climbing the corporate ladder? What if it is not what everybody told you it was? Today, I'm joined by Sheila Cosgrove, who has spent 25 years in hospitality, and now she's an entrepreneur and coach for women navigating their professional journeys.

Having seen it all, she says, nobody wakes up one day and says, this is what I'm going to do for the rest of my life. There's not just one aha moment. So instead, she encourages young women to take risks, to try different paths, and to figure out what will light them up. Even more powerful is her insight about trusting yourself. As she explains, intrinsically, you know when something is not right for you. And yet most of us ignore those signals and just keep going.

So whether you are considering a career change or simply feeling a pull in another direction, today's conversation will inspire you to listen more closely to what life is really telling you. Let's dive in. You are excellent. You become unforgettable. Welcome to Indie. I am your host, Leigh-Anne Lentrin, and this is a First Humanity Podcast.

What did you grow up like? Like what was your upbringing? So I'm the youngest of seven and we lived in a small house with lots of dogs and lots of cats and other random animals whenever someone brought them home. My mom and dad worked. So that was always what was going to happen for all of us. So I would think I was more raised by my sisters probably than by my mom, but don't tell my mom that.

So we really came to rely and depend on each other, which was probably at times seemed a little annoying, but now I recognize it for the gift that it was to have that chaos and that rich family. So we were brought up with a very strong work ethic. So we knew that

that, again, that's what was expected of us. We had that responsibility to go to work and that's what we did. So in addition to going to college, we also went to work. Did you like that? Was that something that was comforting to you or was that hard for you to deal with, just the pressure of it all? I don't recall that it was. I think the expectation was always there. So to me, it just seemed normal. So working full-time, going to school full-time, it was just...

normal for my family. So I didn't feel any particular pressure. It was, you know, I was tired and it was, you know, tough, but as far as the expectations were concerned, it was something that was just assumed. So, okay. So then you went into hospitality, you spent 25 years in the industry. You've worked in the

You always wanted to be an entrepreneur. So why did entrepreneurship specifically, why was that something you wanted? I definitely wanted to be able to control my own destiny is probably some strong words, but when you're an entrepreneur or you have your own business, you actually, um,

You're not dependent upon something else or someone else or some other company for your income, your employment. And I really wanted that freedom to be able to say, if it's going to happen, I'm going to do it. And I wouldn't want to be dependent on another company for that.

my livelihood or to support my family. So I always had desire to be an entrepreneur so that I could make those decisions and have that freedom to be able to do that. Yeah, that makes sense. And then people are usually afraid with the risks that come with entrepreneurship, right? Like why don't more people do it? I'd love to dive into this topic a little bit with you because you've done it, you know, and you've experienced it all. Was it what you expected going into it? In some ways, yes. I think that the success

Some of the things I didn't expect was how long it takes to really get ramped up and to become known for what you do. And also, honestly, the marketing that's involved, which I really didn't have a background in. So thankfully, I worked with my own coach who helped me along those lines. But that was probably...

the big thing was that how the time that it takes, you know, and I think some entrepreneurs, you know, if it doesn't happen in a year or two years, they say, I can't, can't do this anymore. I give up, but I just showed up every day. I continue to show up every day and just keep working at it. Luckily I've been, I have some great, great, I've had some great, great clients. I have some great clients now. So I've been, but it's because I took the time and put in, you know, the effort for a long period of time, I guess.

Yeah. And did you expect to, to succeed or like, you know, why, why do most entrepreneurs give up? It's because they, they fear that they got something wrong. Like maybe the product's wrong. Maybe the offering's wrong. Like maybe there's something wrong and it's,

You know, the, the question of, or am I going to continue putting my effort and energy into this thing, which I, I can hope that there's an awesome outcome at the end, but I don't know. What, what pushed you through that? I've always had this thing in the back of my head that I will be successful. I don't know where that comes from, but I, I,

I've never doubted that. It could potentially be because of the work ethic that was instilled in us as kids that if you work hard, those things will come to you. So I never had a fear that I wouldn't be successful. I did, as I started to get into it, as I mentioned, my fear was...

How soon can I be successful? And can I financially handle, you know, the time that's going to take to get everything ramped up and to really get to the place that I am today? So, but I never had a fear of failure, but I also never considered giving up. Just keep going and going and going. Yeah. You said you feared how long it would take.

Um, was there ever a point where you're like, maybe it's not worth it? Or like, was there ever a thought in your mind? Like, okay, I'm doing this for this amount of time. Or was it because everybody, especially when they're young, they have their like pipe dreams where it's like, oh, like I could become this thing. And then, and then the question becomes, okay, well, are you willing to put in the effort? And then what if you actually don't have the, have what it takes, right? Like there are some things that you were just, um,

there are some things that you can work toward and there are some things that you just can't like, for example, if I wanted to be a, a crazy athlete, um, and I'm just literally not built for that sport, like maybe, but also sometimes there are things that work against you and you have to be realistic about the games that you can and cannot win. Um,

I have a mentor that likes to say, play games you're uniquely positioned to win. And do you think that that's something that you did or yeah, how did you, how did you navigate that? So I, I did have a point where I said, I'm going to do this for another X amount of time. And if I don't see any kind of any kind of success or, you know, any forward movement, then I will, you know, figure something else out. I will go to something else, but every time I,

That timeline would come. I've done that a few times, but, and that timeline would come and I would just keep going. So I would set some parameters on it, but then I just never wanted to give up. And thankfully, you know, I've been able to handle it, you know, financially. And I know that there's a lot of people who just come to that point where they hit a wall and, you know, they don't have a choice, right. They have to give it up. They have to go either back to what they were doing before or potentially, you know, doing something else, um,

or finding something new. Is that because you set yourself up properly or why? It's a good question. Potentially, I asked for a lot of help when I first started out. I had a lot of informational interviews with other coaches, people I knew who had started their own business. So,

I almost immediately started asking for help and started to ask a lot of questions. It's so funny. Just recently, someone reached out to me and said, Hey, I'm thinking about starting my own coaching practice. Can we get together? And can I just talk to you about your experience? And it was such a full circle moment. That's exactly what I did when I started out. So I asked for help early and I asked for a lot of it. And I also recognized what I didn't know. So I knew a lot of things. I knew how to coach. I knew people. I knew, uh,

the psychology behind things. But like I mentioned before, I certainly didn't know everything about being an entrepreneur. So I asked for help early and often. Yeah, that's a really good note. Just like,

in whatever stage you are in. I think something that I had this conversation with, who did I have this conversation with? Oh, it was actually a director recently. And he was talking to me about like what it takes to succeed as a director. And he was basically saying like what it takes to succeed as anything in the top of your field. And he's like, to be honest, like,

like you kind of have to be an entrepreneur. Like you have to be entrepreneurial in, in any, in any industry, I think. And what's interesting is it's almost more a mindset than it is like anything else. It's just kind of like this, this inter intersect between like you're creative, but you're also hardworking. And like that, that's the entrepreneurial spirit. It seems like to me is, is this overlap between creativity and also hard work. Cause you can work hard, but not

not have creativity and then, you know, you're, you're something else. And then you can be creative, but not have hard work. And then it makes you like an artist of sorts, but like, but an entrepreneur is somebody that both has the business side of things and also cares about the creative side of things, which I think overlaps to a lot of interests and, and, and different industries, like whether you're young in your career and you're trying to decide, okay, what am I, what am I going into? If you're deciding if you want to be an entrepreneur early or

Or whatever, like those two intersects, the art and the business. Like it just, it seems to help in every aspect. Can you track in your own life, just like this intersect between business and creativity? I can actually, I would say early on in my career, I was definitely the doer, you know, and a lot, I think a lot of people who maybe, you know, come, come the way that I did, or they, you know, come the ladder the way that I did the ladder. Yeah.

they, they have the same experience. So, you know, first they're just individual contributors and they're getting stuff done. And then in order to evolve as a leader, you have to develop that creative side, the vision, right. And be able to also drive the implementation. So I would say it's probably within the last 10 or 15 years is where I really started to embrace the creative side. And I never felt as though I was very creative, but I found that I'm

you know, once you, it's like a muscle. I think once you start doing it, it gets stronger and stronger. I think also a lot of those personality tests told me that I'm this color or I'm, you know, iron.

I am more focused on implementation than I am on the creative side. So that kind of made an impact on me. But over the last 15 years, and certainly I've started this business, I've had to create a structure and a framework for my clients that will make them successful. And I've also had to do all the other work to get that out there and get my message out there and have people...

resonate with it. So, but very early on, not very creative, more the implementer, if you will. And then, but to your point, it's definitely, you really do have to have both as a leader and as an entrepreneur. They're not, they can't, you can't be just one or the other. That's my personal opinion is that you have to have strength or good enough strength in both. I think so. And it also makes sense because back to what you're saying about like the fact that the

When you started, you had a lot more flexibility around how long you could push for something because of the way that you did it. Whereas some people will start with $0 in the bank and they just have to make it work. And sometimes there's the story of it actually working out, right? It just works. Yeah.

But then there's, and they do it all alone. And like, it just works. And there's that hero story where it's like this one person that did it all alone. And like, for some reason, people think that that's the way to do it. But it seems more like it is the, that's the exception, not the rule. And the rule is more so like, if you can set yourself up, if you can give yourself runway, if you can have a lot of conversations with people in your industry, like that gives you more of a,

an opportunity to succeed. And that's really, that's really thinking like a business person, like how can I increase the odds that I'm successful in this? That's a great point. And I do think you're right about that is the exception for someone to be, you know, super successful in a short period of time. And, and that's, I applaud them, right? That

I'm happy for them, but it's more, it's definitely the exception. So as you, when you become an entrepreneur, you have to be comfortable again, with the amount of time that it's going to take for you to build your business. And you may think, and that's a question that I asked a lot of people. I said, how long do you think it'll take me to be profitable? Right.

How long will it take me to build this platform or build the structure for my clients that will appeal to them? Right. So and, you know, how long until I'm really making the impact on the way I want to make the impact on and the women that I want to help and that I want to serve? And they just can't give you they can't give you an answer. They don't. Nobody really knows.

how long any of those things will take. From starting it to becoming known to then becoming to the point where all the things you envision and the impact you wanted to make is really coming to fruition. But nobody can really tell you how long that's going to be. So you have to just become

comfortable with that. And that's really not easy for a lot of people. And some people, they either don't have it in them, they never want to be an entrepreneur, or they just don't have the resources or potentially the stamina to just kind of make it work. And that's fine too.

Right. There's lots of people who are very, very successful who tried entrepreneurship and it didn't work or they just said, this is not for me. And they're wildly successful somewhere else. And that's great, too. Yeah. What what about you? Like if I don't know if you defined your purpose or like what about you made you decide to to be a coach? Like what was what was the call?

So having kind of walked the hall of corporate for a very long time, I saw that there were fewer opportunities for women to develop that were really needed. Specifically, a lot of women are put into leadership positions and a lot of men as well.

but people are put into leadership positions without actually having been trained as leaders. They're great at what they do. They contribute as an individual contributor. They're great at getting things done, but they haven't really been taught how to lead. So I had a few of those experiences myself, and I also saw it happen in my colleagues. And I recognized that there was a need for this. A lot of times also, I would be

in the room and I had to I had to talk louder than other people I had to be more assertive than other people you know we can spend days talking about you know the culture and the system that does that but I didn't want anyone else to have to go through that what I went through so

So I was lucky enough eventually to have a coach of my own. And that was just an absolute light bulb moment for me. I knew that that was my calling. That was what I was meant to do is to serve other women and help them be successful and help them kind of jump over those hurdles that are really pretty much put in everyone's way.

But have some help in doing that. Yeah. Because I mean, it's so hard. You get to a position, you get to a place and you've been an individual contributor for a really long time. Maybe you've managed people a bit, but like once you're, once there's more on the table, once the stakes are a lot higher, like the way that you lead is just so blatantly obvious and it impacts everything around you. And what's fascinating, and I've been facing this a lot, is like you learn how to lead through good leaders, right?

Like you don't, there's, there's like, I can read how to win friends and influence people. Right. But like watching somebody emulate those characteristics is very different than reading a book about it. Right. Or like, or like even, even focusing on, on one little granular thing and having somebody change your habits or change the way that you think about something like, um, you mentioned that you had a great leader. What are three of the best things that, that, that great leader taught you? So he,

He taught us that it was okay to fail. He created that environment of for us taking risks and coming up with ideas that maybe sounded completely, you know, unrealistic, but he allowed us to take risks.

he allowed us to try them. He made a safe place for us to fail. He also never stopped teaching us. So it was a team of about five or six people and we were all stepping into these leadership roles and they weren't small leadership roles. They were global roles. We had teams that we were working with and people who were working for us that we had to lead a mentor. And one of the first things he did was he took the time to make sure we had those foundational skills that every leader needs to have

And he took us through it and he, he, he trained and he developed every single one of us to have those things and to know those things so that we could apply them. And then he was, he was, I don't want to say vulnerable necessarily, but he was just really real. And he made it clear that, you know, I have faults. I have quirks, you know, I'm not perfect. I make mistakes kind of thing.

And that was, that's really, that's also creates that, you know, that environmental safety for people, you know, to kind of be themselves and not be afraid to be themselves.

So those were the three things I would say. He encouraged us to take risks and to fail, never stopped teaching us or developing us. And he was, he just was real. He was who he was and he never, you know, he never shied away from that. So he's the, I'd say he was the, probably the most positive leadership experience that I've had, you know, people that I've worked with. So. And what did you take from that?

How did that transform who you were and how you led? It was completely instrumental because I recognized all these great things that need to happen in order for people to be successful. That's why I always made sure that everyone had the resources that they needed to be successful. And that's a lot of why I do coaching as well is because I want everyone to have the tools, everyone to have the resources to be successful. So that helped me both in my corporate career and also as I'm working as a coach too. I just always wanted to make sure that

people were cared for and that, you know, they, they knew that I certainly wasn't perfect. And that way they felt more comfortable, you know, being vulnerable and being approachable. That's a good point. Like whenever you're in a leadership position, right? Like onboarding somebody is tough and, and bringing them up is tough and it costs money and time and effort and energy. And so,

Like hiring and firing, like that's never fun for anybody to do. But like if you are sure that you are giving your teams all the resources that they have and then they're still not doing the work, like then that justifies it more. But I think very often there are these moments where people have leaders that don't know how to give them the right resources. And then because of that, you know, you have somebody that has a lot of potential. You have somebody that would be a great person to keep on the team. But you...

you, you almost like lose out on, on the potential of that because you just don't know how to help them. Um, what are the key resources that, that people need in order to, to grow into who it is that they're going to be in a leadership position? So there's the practical, right? There's the, what are the foundational skills that you need to be able to do the work that you do? So there's, there's those foundational things. So I think they also need, um,

they need to know that they're not just an employee. They're also a person. So they need to know that that's valued as well, I think, because that teaches them to also be that way with other people. I also think that they need to understand what it means to be successful wherever they're working. So what does success look like? How is the performance going to be judged, right? So, and they need to know that

how they need to work so they can get to where they are making that impact. So a lot of times people don't get any feedback. And I think that's very, very necessary for people to grow into a leadership role that, but they get constructive feedback, right? They, and

And, and, you know, your, your leader has to tie it to why that's important. But I think that a lot of people don't get feedback and they, so they're not really given the map or, you know, the roadmap of how to be successful. You know, they just don't, they just don't know what that, what's that going, what that's going to be. And I think it's the leader's responsibility to make sure that they have that. Yeah. And I've, I've been in that position quite a few times where it's like, as, as

as somebody coming into their career and as a leader, like the person that is coming into their career does not know what they do not know, you know? And like, that is the problem is all the blind spots. And so they're making decisions and they're asking you questions based on what they know, but it's usually very limited. It's usually...

you know, maybe a couple of years old or maybe a couple of industries old. And like, as a leader, you have this intersection of knowledge between maybe all the different industries you've worked in, maybe all the different roles that you've had, maybe all the different people you've talked to, like you have this intersection of things that allow you to see things and understand things and ask the right questions. And like, I mean, what, what makes a good CEO? It's like, it's,

usually the way that they think about things and that's about like that's about it like they think about things in a really awesome way they set an awesome culture but like their unique experiences and

And the way that they've had conversations and like all of those unique things cannot be replicated by anybody else. So to be the leader that points those things out is so important. And that helps guide somebody working underneath you. What are the questions that are most important for feedback? So let's say like, I don't know, let's say that your leader doesn't set that pace. Like your leader is good.

maybe they like want to help you, but they don't set that pace where they're, they're giving you constant feedback. They're telling you what you don't know. You don't know. They're like, they're there helping you to grow into the next version of yourself. Um, what are the best questions to ask? I, the best questions to ask would be, there's probably, there's probably three questions. There's how am I doing interpersonally? So how, how are my skills in dealing with other people? How, how would you rate my, um,

you know, my experience in, you know, working functionally and working with different levels of the organization. I think that one of the important parts of asking that question is about getting specifics. So you don't want this kind of like high level. Yes, you do that. Great. Oh yeah. Fantastic. You're great. Ask them to give you specific feedback. How, how did I do facilitating that meeting? How did I handle that conflict that came up? Right. How,

what do you think about my negotiation skills? How did I negotiate in the best way and where can I improve? So it's really important to get specifics, um, about what it is you are, where you're maybe have some challenges and where you do really, really well. So I think definitely interpersonal skills is one. And then, um,

There's also the point of, you know, the foundational technical skills. What do I need to know? What do I need to learn? What do I need to look out for to be successful in this role? And also, how do I move, you know, within the company, right? How does that happen? Is it organic? Is it very structured? Those types of things. Because then you can say, the next question would be, so this would be four questions, how do I move?

How do I become, or how do I get there? How do I become that person? Where do you see gaps? Where do you see things that I do really well? Because I think that people should also lean into their strengths, not just try to fix their deficiencies. This is a strong word, but things that they're challenged with. I think they also, you know, lean into their strengths as well. So that's feedback. That's good to have too. Yeah. So.

So when you consult women, who are the types of women that you're consulting and kind of like what are the questions that they have? A lot of times they'll ask, they'll tell me, we'll have a discovery call and they'll talk through what the situation is and they'll talk through a little bit about what they think they want. And then they want to know if I think it's realistic. Yeah.

So they want to, they say, do you think I can do this? Or does that sound reasonable? Those types of things. They're really questioning whether where they want to go from where they are right now is actually possible. So I honestly, I mean, I can't tell, I can tell you what I think about it. I can't tell you what it's going to look like on the other side, because there's so many factors that come into it. It's your effort. It's, you know, the, you know, what's happening around you. It's

the opportunities and the timing, but they really want, that's the biggest question they ask me is, do you think, can I do this? Do you think I really can do this?

So they also want to know timeframe. You know, do you, can I do this in two months? Can I do this in six months? And again, you know, I can give them an estimate based on the way that I've worked with previously, but every situation is different. So they definitely want to know about timing too. And then of course they want to know how I'm going to help them. So, and I really, I welcome that question. I, when someone asks me, how are you,

how are you going to help me based on my specific circumstances? When they ask that, I know that they're ready for coaching because they want to know what this experience is going to be like. And they're really curious about coaching.

how the coaching is going to be handled and what specific tools I might use and what my coaching style is like. So that I always love to get that question. And a lot of people don't ask it necessarily. So I tell them, and as we go through the conversation, I kind of work, you know, if they haven't asked me, I will tell them, you know, this is my style. This is how we work together. This is, you know, what it's going to look like. Um,

But I hope most of the time they do ask me that question, which I'm glad to have. I'm glad to hear. What are they searching for? They're really looking for fulfillment. A lot of the women that I work with are, they've been working for a period of time and they get to a point where...

they're saying, is this all there is? I mean, is this, is this it? Right. And they, they feel like they're not making the impact that they want to make. Sometimes they don't really know exactly what that means or what that looks like, but they know they can feel that they're not doing it. They're not making an impact and they want to do something they love to do. And also something that makes a difference. They also are looking for, they're looking for really more freedom, I think, to

And they're looking for permission, you know, unfortunately to be, to have that freedom and to take that risk and to take that, take that leap. So, but I think most of the time they're looking just to figure out how they can make an impact because they, they just aren't having that. They don't, don't have that fulfillment that they want or they need in their work. So,

I mean, I don't know how you'll answer this. Actually, I'm very intrigued. But thinking from the perspective of a young person, can you avoid that feeling of, you know, is this really all that there is? Like, how do you build your career in your life that you do not experience that question later on? Because I feel like that's everybody's fear is that they get to a point where they're like, okay, I'm actually not happy with the choices that I made in the place that I'm at now.

Right. You know, for, for young women, what I typically, and I do a lot of mentoring too. So I get a great opportunity to talk to a lot of people who are early in their career, women who are in their career. And I always tell them to not be afraid to do something different, to evolve, to take a risk. If something is interesting to you and interesting,

you know, you have to have financial considerations in there too. So if it's interesting to you and you can do it, then do it because nobody wakes up one day and says, this is what I'm going to do with the rest of my life. It's really more about, this is what I'm going to do right now. And that whatever happens, you know, this is what I'm going to do, but this is what I'm interested in. And whatever happens happens. And then the next thing will eventually come along. And I tell them to have faith, not faith, but they have trust that

that they will find a lot of different things to do with their career, which is going to really round them out. And it will show them what they like to do and what they don't like to do. So that's a lot of what we talk about. And, you know, sometimes, you know, the roles that you take, they're not the most glamorous roles are not the best roles in the world, but if they challenge you and they make you grow and they teach you, then they're

those are the opportunities that you want to have. When do you stop doing something? So like, when do you, when do you decide, okay, I, it's time for me to move on. Cause I feel like that's also difficult is it's really difficult to start momentum in a direction. And it's also very difficult to stop momentum in a direction. So how did my clients stop or how do you, yeah. How do your career? Yeah. People who are in their career, but also like you were mentioning that, um, that you're going to try things and sometimes it's not going to be glamorous. Yeah.

So when do you stop? Great question. I don't know that it's the same for everyone. I don't know it's the same answer, but I do think that intrinsically, you know, when something's not right for you and it will show up in other ways. So it will show up as you're, you know, you're just very irritable or you're always very tired or you just don't, you're not enjoying the work that you're doing. But most people, even though they feel that way for whatever reason, valid or invalid, they're all valid.

They just keep going. They don't listen, I think, to really what's inside. And they, so I think that's what people need to do to stop doing what they're doing is to really listen, listen to what, and be aware of what your mind and what the situation is really trying to tell you. Don't kind of push it aside and say, oh, I can't, I can't listen to that. I just have to keep going, keep going, keep going. It's really,

important to take the time to understand what, you know, what, you know, life is telling you, the environment is telling you, what your heart is telling you. I love that last question. And then I'll hit you with some rapid fire questions. What

What is the biggest challenge that you have faced and how did you overcome it? And then you can ask, you can answer it in both career and also just life in general, if you're open to it. Wow, I am. In my career, like many people, I think the statistics are 42% of the workforce will experience a layoff or a job elimination. That is tough. That is really, really tough. And this was back when I was obviously in my corporate career, but because people's identities are so tied to their jobs.

And we hear that all the time and it is so true. So that was really tough for me. And it does take a period of time to kind of separate yourself from what you do and who you are. So that was a big, big struggle for me personally. I went through a layoff, came out of nowhere. I had absolutely no idea. I had a 10 person team. I was,

I was really worried for them and what was going to happen with them. And, but my position was eliminated and that was that. So that was the toughest professional thing I think that I've gone through. How did you get out of it really quickly? I, well, it takes time. Yeah. And it takes a bit of reflection and it just...

You get to a point where the further away you get from the what happened, the more comfortable you get with not being that person anymore. So it's really about for me, it was about time. And I had a lot of great support in my life. People who were saying, you know, and encouraging me and saying, you know, you're not just this. You're also you can also do this or you can take that experience and you can be something else. You can do something else.

I would say also, if I think about professional challenges, I, it was really about being heard. And I know that's kind of a general term, but also having the confidence to sit in a room, you know, with other people and know that you knew what you were doing. You had to be there and that's hard. And it takes a lot of time and it took me a lot of time to get there. I will

I'll be honest. So I understand all those feelings and, you know, that women have in the workplace. And I think that was probably my biggest challenge professionally was getting to the point where I was confident in my abilities and

And until you get there, I really don't think that your career can be everything that it can be. So how do you get there? Like as a, as a woman, cause I mean, even not as a woman, but especially as a woman feeling heard, feeling confident in, in your abilities, feeling like you have a right to be at the table and not only that, but your opinions, you know, valued and, um,

like that's a challenging thing. How do you get to that point where that's something that you work on over time or like you actually truly believe it? You do have to, you have to realize

really understand what your value proposition is and you have to get comfortable with talking about it and with telling people about it. The more that you do it, the easier it becomes and the more you believe it. I think also time and experience helps too. And people giving you the opportunity, like I had that great boss that I was talking about. He gave me the opportunity to show the skills that I had and the strengths that I had and goes a long, long way.

and making you feel more confident. You just have to do it. You have to jump in there and you have to put yourself out there and not be for making mistakes. Because a lot of times we think what you're going to say or what you're going to do is valuable or is...

Some people would think it was wrong. And then you get through it and you say, wow, that was not too bad. Or that was easier than I thought. So it takes some risk as well. Definitely. Okay. So personal life, the biggest challenge you faced in your personal life. So we are an adoptive family. I have two children. Um,

who are adopted internationally. And that is the longest process and the, just the most convoluted red tape process that you will ever go through in your life. So my goodness, it's,

And I don't want to discourage anybody. You got to be in it to win it because it takes time. It takes patience, takes a lot of moving parts, and you just have to trust the process. I like to say that to people a lot, trust the process. So, but it was a really long time. It was a couple of years from when we started our adoption journey to when our daughter, who's our younger child came home.

And it was really, really tough personally, because it takes a toll on you. It takes a toll on your relationship with your partner. And it's just exhausting, but worth it. That's worth it in the end. But that was the greatest gift, but also the biggest challenge. Is it all of the things that you have to do? Because I know that there are different requirements whenever you adopt a child. And sometimes they're different. Sometimes it's simpler. And then other times you have to visit and do all kinds of

things like that. Was your process a lot more complicated? Not necessarily. It had all the, you know, the fundamentals of what, you know, people go through when they want to adopt a child. There's a lot of background checks. There's a lot of diving into your finances and asking all about your relationships with everybody, your entire family.

spouse, your partner, whatever, they get into it. And they have to come and inspect your home and make sure that it's safe. They, and they, the social worker is the person that does these interviews. They'll spend a lot of time, you know, making sure that this is a place and a good place to bring, you know, a child into. So it does, it does take a bit of time to go through that process. And then the

There's the whole, you know, then you work with an adoption agency. And we also had an adoption attorney that we worked with at the same time. And there's a lot of protective and international adoption. There's a lot of processes. There's a lot of immigration types of things, which were all great experiences. And I learned so much, but it's, there's a lot of different steps. How is it emotionally tolling? Just like, I don't know.

I'm really curious about the specifics because those are the things that people don't tell you. It's sad and it's hard. And those are the conversations, though, that you almost wish that you had beforehand so you could be ready for it. And I know I'm very interested in adoption. So what were the things that were really difficult?

and going into it, like you'd recommend or give advice to somebody to just be aware of? I would want to make sure that they know what's involved and be very, I want to be very upfront about what's involved and how long it takes. And-

I would also tell them that there is a community of people out there that they can rely on, which was huge for me, for us, that there was a group of people who were all adopted from the same country. And we created a group. I can't remember what platform it was on because it was 17 or 18 years ago.

And there, there are people out there to support you. And there are people who have gone through what you've gone through and they, they were successful. They made it to the other side. They have a wonderful family. So it is possible. And then it is kind of an emotional rollercoaster for us. It was, we had made a long, you know, that's an additional long story, but just make sure that if you are adopting with someone else, that that relationship is really strong because it will be a rollercoaster, um,

There's no way around it. It might be a little roller coaster or it might be a really long roller coaster, but you will have some up and down emotions. And to just recognize that that's all part of the process and to lean into those people who also know what you're going through to support you. That was, that was huge. That was a big, big part of it that helped us through. Dang. Okay. Rapid fire questions. What is the best advice you've ever been given? Um,

Oh, rapid fire. I'm supposed to go really fast, right? So it doesn't matter if you don't have a degree right now. It doesn't matter. It makes absolutely no difference. You're still as talented as everyone else. That was the best advice I got. I got that from a mentor because I was all hung up on that because I went to college and then I just...

I left and I went to work and then I went, I was going back to get my degree a little bit later. So non-traditional student. And I was all hung up on that. I was like, oh, I probably, you know, this was back when I didn't have that confidence. She said to me, who cares that you don't need that, right? How is that? How are you any different from the person next to you who's doing this job, right? You're both killing it, but.

That was the best advice I ever got. And that helped me let go of that particular hangup, if you will. Dang, that's really good. What is your advice that you'd give to your daughter about the life that she's going to live? Always know that you have value. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do something. Don't give up what you want for somebody else and lots of other stuff. But those are the three things that came to mind. And I know she would just roll her eyes and say, okay, mom, sure. Yeah.

Yeah, she's, she's great. She's wonderful. So, but that's, that's the advice that I would give her. That was, that was very good. And looking back, what is something that you wish your mom would have told you growing up, but she didn't. So now, now you can tell other women. That you, that you can do whatever you want to do, that you have everything inside you, that you can do anything you want to do. So I wish I had gotten that advice or that guidance because true. It really is true for everyone. Dang. Well, this has been such a good, good episode. So fun.

And I'll link everything of yours below. If people want to find you, you're very active. So they can definitely find you on LinkedIn and other places. And yeah, this was so, so great. Thank you so much. It was great to be here. Thanks so much. I'm looking forward to our next episode. Cheers. We all want to help one another. Human beings are like that.