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cover of episode UK Antisemitism & Extremism | Inside the Fight With Phillip Rosenberg

UK Antisemitism & Extremism | Inside the Fight With Phillip Rosenberg

2025/1/13
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Eylon Levy: 本期节目探讨了十月七日事件后英国犹太社区面临的挑战,包括反犹太主义的上升、与英国穆斯林的宗教间合作以及在日益增长的压力下维护犹太身份认同的问题。节目还探讨了哈马斯袭击事件的地缘政治影响、英以关系以及对英国社会的更广泛影响。 Phillip Rosenberg: 我作为英国犹太人代表委员会主席,我的角色是代表英国犹太社区与政府、媒体、不同信仰社群和外交机构进行沟通。十月七日事件后,英国的反犹太主义事件增加了500%。我们需要抵制极端主义,团结各社群,共同维护社会稳定。我们需要与穆斯林领导人合作,共同应对反犹太主义和反穆斯林仇恨等问题。我们需要改变人们对英国犹太社区的叙事,庆祝我们的文化和对英国社会的贡献。最终,我们需要找到解决以巴冲突的办法,两国方案可能是最好的选择,但这需要一个漫长的过程。我们需要减少不必要的错误,避免一些官员的极端言论损害以色列的国际形象。 Phillip Rosenberg: 十月七日事件后,反犹太主义急剧上升,这表明一些我们认为会支持我们的盟友和机构并没有这样做,导致犹太社区重新评估自身地位。面对反犹太主义,一些人选择战斗,一些人选择逃避,一些人则内化仇恨。我们需要认识到,反犹太主义的加剧并非总是因为以色列的强硬立场,而是在以色列软弱的时候,反犹太主义者才更有恃无恐。我们需要采取措施打击反犹太主义,并与其他社群合作,共同应对极端主义的威胁。针对以色列的仇恨行为不仅威胁到犹太人的安全,也威胁到英国的国家安全。我们需要对极端主义采取强硬立场,即使这意味着将问题推向地下。我们需要与温和的穆斯林社群合作,因为极端主义也威胁着他们。我们需要改变人们对英国犹太社区的叙事,庆祝我们的文化和对英国社会的贡献。最终,我们需要找到解决以巴冲突的办法,两国方案可能是最好的选择,但这需要一个漫长的过程。我们需要减少不必要的错误,避免一些官员的极端言论损害以色列的国际形象。

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We do not want to live in a society where you've got Islamists and far-right thugs throwing bricks at each other and moderate mainstream people of all walks of life, all religious backgrounds being caught in the middle. We need to push back against this and reclaim our society, our streets, our online sphere from the extremists.

Hello and welcome to State of a Nation. I'm Elon Levy. For over a year, London has seen regular protests against Israel with cries of "globalize the Intifada" and "from the river to the sea" and this obsession about Israel is increasingly fueling political violence in Britain with MPs reporting death threats, even offices being vandalized. And it's left the British Jewish community feeling very nervous as anti-Semitism has hit record levels.

That's why I wanted to talk to Philip Rosenberg. He's the president of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, the leader of the British Jewish community, so to speak. At only 38, he was the youngest ever person to be elected president of the Board of Deputies.

the first millennial to lead Britain's Jewish community. He joins me today from London in this new podcast setup we have that allows me to interview guests remotely. Together we have a look at how October 7th has changed the British Jewish community, the challenges of representing a community that feels squeezed and under assault,

and why he's optimistic about working together with Muslims in Britain to face the challenges that they confront together against extremism that threatens them both.

Welcome to State of a Nation. Breaking news out of Israel this morning. Shocking hostages. Hundreds of Israelis are dead. I want to bring in Israeli government spokesman Elon. What happens when a four-day court... Have you resolved this? Where does this go? President Rosenberg, welcome to State of a Nation. It's a pleasure to be with you, Elon. Tell me, have you gotten used to being called President Rosenberg yet? Not really.

You'll get there. You'll get there eventually. Philip, you made history as the youngest elected president of the Board of Deputies of British Jews. And you lead Britain's Jews now really at a historic turning point when it feels that the tectonic plates are shifting. People in the wake of October 7th are re-evaluating their own basic assumptions, their assessments of where the future is going. And so I want to understand before we delve into the issues, how you understand your role as a British Jew.

as the leader of Britain's Jews, and maybe how your understanding of that role has shifted since October 7th.

So the Board of Deputies is the national representative body of the UK Jewish community. It was founded in 1760, so it's 16 years older than the United States. And my predecessors included people like Moses Montefiore. I want a windmill by the end as well. I've told the Israeli government I'd love my own windmill. We'll make sure there's a Rosenberg Street in Tel Aviv as well. That's exactly it. And the way we're comprised is 200 member organizations from Cornwall to Aberdeen.

and 300 elected deputies from across those 200 organizations. So we sort of are a parliament of the UK Jewish community, if you like. And that's how we're formed. And the role of the Board of Deputies is to represent the UK Jewish community to government, media, different faith communities, the diplomatic core here in the UK. And that's the role we have. And particularly given the time, and you absolutely rightly set out the context, it's been a horrible 14 months

particularly because of the horrific terrorist attacks in Israel, the ongoing war, the hostage situation, but also the massive rise in anti-Semitism we've seen in the UK and across the diaspora too. And

We've set out the team that was elected with me in May, five key priorities, fight antisemitism, stand up for peace and security in Israel and the Middle East, defend our religious freedoms, make our community more united, more inclusive, and more outward looking, and celebrate our faith, heritage, and culture as British Jews. I think that's really an important package because as well as fighting the challenges that are before us, we also have much to celebrate and it's important that we remember that too.

Much to celebrate, but I think also part of your role is to sustain morale in the diaspora at a time when Jews are coming under unprecedented assault. And I know particularly in the United States, people speak of October 8th Jews or October 7th Jews who suddenly rediscovered a sense of Jewish identity, of connection to Israel, when they saw how their societies responded to the attacks. And I wonder, what are you noticing in the British community? How has it changed since October 7th?

I think that there's been a lot of change, a lot of anxiety, because we saw, for example, in the immediate aftermath of that horrific attack, you know, when you might have thought we'd get a lot of sympathy. We did from some quarters, but there was a 500% rise in anti-Semitism. And we've seen that

on our streets at these protests. We've seen it online. We've seen it on university campuses. We've seen it in the workplace. And so there's been a lot of the Jewish community saying, hold on a minute. Where are the allies we thought we had? Some of them did show up, let's be fair, but some of them really did not. And some of the institutions we thought might have supported us did not. So I think there's been a sort of sense of

a reappraisal of where we sit. And one of the jobs that we have is to push back and try and work out in this post-October 7th world, how do things need to look? This moment of extreme pressure on the Jewish community, I think offers Jewish communities two survival strategies.

One is to try to fade into the background, even take up the mantle of being anti-Israel to show how much you fit in with the new zeitgeist. And the other is to reinforce that connection to Israel and the broader Jewish community and say, no, we're not taking any of this nonsense and we're not going to allow ourselves to be

Jews on your conditions. And I'm wondering what shift you're seeing within the self-confidence of the British Jewish community. Has this moment made them more Zionist, more pro-Israel, or are they responding to the hate and the pressure by joining in the bandwagon?

So first of all, I'd say our mission is not just to help the British Jewish community survive, it's to help it to thrive. And I think that's important. But I'd go further. I'd say you're absolutely right about this point about how people respond to racism. Some people see racism, anti-Semitism, and they want to fight it. Some people run away from it. And some people internalize some of the hatred and say, you know, maybe the anti-Semites are kind of right about some of these things.

And a point I really make, and I think it's really important to note, is that the sharpest rise in anti-Semitism, in the UK at least, came...

in the immediate aftermath of 7th October, before Israel had gone into Gaza. Because a lot of people say, well, you know, anti-Semitism rises when Israel is fighting or Israel... Actually, in those days, Israel was not in a position of strength. It was in a position of weakness. I think that we see that anti-Semitism, the sharpest rise came not when the anti-Semites thought Israel was too strong. They did it when Israel was weak. And I think we have to realize that, that yes,

There are people who have criticisms of the Israeli government,

Many people in Israel have some of those criticisms. But that hatred isn't always because of that. It is when they think that they can get away with it. And I think that's a point I make to people who are in that internalizing the hatred space. We actually have to remember the anti-Semites are not going to be more forgiving of us if Israel is meek and mild. Actually, they seem to take permission from the moment when Israel is at its weakest to say, right, we can let that anti-Semitism out.

and that was a wake-up call I think. And Philip, that's a really important point, the way that the

The way that October 7th triggered a wave of jubilation and celebration, we saw just recently the torching of a synagogue in Australia, which is a reminder that October 7th, when Hamas burned Jews alive, excited and exhilarated people around the West. They were inspired, and now they're setting synagogues on fire in Australia, and the UK community can't afford to be complacent. But it's more than that, because Israel has become this...

magnet, so to speak, for the far left that tells a particular story about Israel where really they're having a debate about themselves and their own societies when they discuss colonialism or imperialism and they're projecting onto Israel and it's a lightning rod for the far left. And I wonder to what extent you think that Jeremy Corbyn, having been kicked out of the Labour Party unceremoniously, having been its leader, but the ghost of Jeremy Corbyn, so to speak,

has ultimately won out in defining the left's attitude to Israel and that Corbyn may be gone, the worst excesses of the anti-Semitism may be gone, but actually he's defined how the modern left in Britain treats Israel. Is the British left anti-Israel?

I would say it's more complicated than that. Jeremy Corbyn does have his followers, but I think particularly in the last week, since the fall of Assad, in the last days even, people have pointed to Jeremy Corbyn's long-term support for that horrific regime and the fact that he can't even now condemn the barbarism of Assad. And I think a lot of people see that for what it is. They're a loud and vocal group, but as you rightly say, Alon,

he was kicked out of the Labour Party. The Labour Party took a firm stance on kicking quite a lot of his supporters out. So there's been, there's been a change. That's not to say that the Labour government is, is in every sense in the place that we'd like them to be on Israel. But I think that they're actually quite different kind of characters to, to, to what we're seeing, what we saw in, in the, in the form of Jeremy Corbyn, who's,

certainly in the mainstream, really a discredited figure. And perhaps even more so as people see, you know, he's on the wrong side of every argument. And we see that in... Right. I mean, you and I will agree that he's on the wrong side of every argument and he was unceremoniously kicked out of labor and Sir Keir Starmer has made that pledge and I think taken very serious action against anti-Semitism in the Labor Party. But I'm wondering, was it really Jeremy Corbyn who made being anti-Israel a

part of what it means to be left-wing, particularly among the young generation, because Kiarstama, David Lammy, they've stood up against the genocide blood libel. They've stood by Israel's side and there have been unforced errors, we can call them, that I want to unpack with you, but they will be under pressure. They will be under pressure because the left has soured on Israel. And I'm wondering to what extent you think it's soured irreversibly and what you as

as the British Jewish community, you as someone with roots in the Labour Party, can do in order to strengthen that connection and not allow Israel to be, and certainly not allow the Jews to be a partisan issue in Britain. Yeah, I think that's really important. You know, we want to make sure that British Jews can vote for political parties, not because of any Jewish issues, because of their views on social policy and their views on the economy. We'd love Jews to vote without any concern about that, because both

because both parties or all the parties are good enough for you on Jewish issues. So that's certainly the case.

I think that the far left has been quite marginalized from the bigger discourse, but of course they're very noisy in protests and so on. I think though the thing is this, and this is something we met the prime minister a couple of weeks ago, and one of the things I said to him was, look, the challenges that we've had as British Jews in terms of all the antisemitism have not just been for Jews. Businesses with real or imagined links to Israel, frankly, have been attacked by

attacked, damaged, picketed, all these sorts of things. Politicians in this country have been chased, they've been pursued, they've been harassed, they've had their offices smashed up. Some of them have even been chased out of their homes. And what I said to the prime minister is this is not just an issue of Jewish security, this is an issue of national security. And I think that a lot of people in Britain look at these protests and they just...

they're just really alienated because regardless of their understandable concerns for the humanitarian situation, for example, in Gaza, these people are just annoying. They're clogging up the streets. They're damaging the bank that they want to go to. They're getting in the way of their Christmas shopping at this time of year. And I think in the last few months, what we've seen is

um the the sizes of the protests have gone quite a bit smaller but the extremism has gotten bigger you know palestine action uh boasted about kidnapping abducting they said uh a statue of weitzman and then beheading it i mean this is not a debate about whether this or that phrase is anti-semitic or anti-israel this is straightforward criminal behavior and i think we've seen the police kicking in doors and taking action i think

that a lot of people are getting fed up of this nonsense beyond the Jewish community and in wider society too. That's what you told the Prime Minister. What did the Prime Minister tell you? The Prime Minister was kind of reflective. He came, I mean, we wrote to him and he gave us a meeting within a week. So I think, you know, there's definitely a level of concern there. And what he's,

spoken about is cross-government action on anti-Semitism. So in the next few days, we've got meetings with the health secretary, the culture secretary, the education secretary to talk about some of these issues. And we're going to be working piece by piece across government to make sure that we're pushing back. Also with the police directly, we had a good meeting a few weeks ago, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner

you know, it's not just about the conversations, it's about tangible actions. And that's where we're really trying to push. What are the changes we need to see in the law? What are the changes we need to see in policing? What are the changes we need to see in messaging that will put a lid on some of this stuff and begin to turn a wrap? And by the way, also, how do we, as you sort of mentioned, there are parts of society we're never going to reach because they're extreme sectarians. There are a lot of people that we might be able to reach. So we're really looking at boosting our education activities, our infrastructure,

interfaith outreach. There are people who can come around. We may not agree on everything, but we can find ways of agreeing about some things and hopefully then changing the narrative, changing the pace of things. I've spoken about how British Jewry is at an inflection point. There are definitely changes we can make that will push back, and those are the things that we're focused on doing.

I want to get your take on the interfaith work, particularly given the very dramatic demographic change that the UK has seen in the last generation. But first, I want to go back to something you said, because it was a point that really resonates. So this is not just about Jewish security. It's about national security. I was shocked.

I was shocked when I was in the British Parliament a few weeks ago to brief members of Parliament and Lords about the extent to which the derangement about Israel has been fueling political violence in the UK. I met MPs who told me that their constituency offices had been vandalized. Mm.

who weren't allowed to take public transport anymore and had to take a taxi because of fears about what would happen if they were spotted on the tube. The lies about Israel have been fueling genuine political violence, damage of property. We've seen banks having red paint splashed all over them. And this is an issue that is not just for the Jewish community. It's for society at large.

Um, you know, I think it was Rabbi Sachs who said, he said most of the wisdom I have in my head now that, you know, anti-Semites have never just hated the Jews. They have always, it's not that Hitler, you know, just hated Jews. And apart from that, he was a nice chap. Anti-Semites have always been terrible for society. Um,

as a whole. And I wondered to what extent you think that people outside the Jewish community are beginning to connect the dots. The hate marches going through central London, they're not peace marches. And this movement, the anti-Israel movement, is a threat to the stability and well-being of British society and people who just want to go about their Christmas shopping. Do they understand the consequences of

of allowing the propaganda war against Israel to go unchecked in a way that is bringing disorder and even violence to the streets of Britain.

I think that there are a lot of people who are very fed up of this stuff. I mean, I know that some of my deputies, particularly outside the major urban centers in town, say that a lot of their neighbors just are going on and on about Sharia law and concerns about that sort of thing. We saw in the summer riots from the far-right thugs. But part of what seemed to be behind that is this sense of, you know, where is our country going? Fears about migration, particularly fears about Muslim migration.

that, you know, obviously a completely appalling expression in terms of the violence that we saw meted out towards innocent Muslims and other ethnic minorities. But there is, I think, some, there are people who are really kind of very, very anxious about what they're seeing in the UK. And the point I would make, though, very importantly is this. Extremism is not just a threat to white Britons. It's a threat or to Jewish Britons, although Jewish Britons, of course, are multinationals.

multiracial, but it's a threat to Muslims, not just here but everywhere. If you look at how many, the greatest number of ISIS's victims were Muslims. The greatest number of Hezbollah's victims are Muslims, as we've seen particularly in Syria.

Iran's the greatest number of Iran's victims are Muslims and these extremist groups Are are a threat to Muslims as much as they are to any other part of society So that the work that we want to do in interfaith particularly is about strengthening moderate Muslims against the extremists that threaten that and and it's an important point that we have to we have to do it to fight back against this this threat it is not about playing

parts of society against each other. It's about bringing parts of society together against the problem of extremism. One of the things we've said to the prime minister, we say more broadly is, you know, we've had 14 months of these horrible demonstrations that, you know, are, you know, clog, you know, threat, undermine cohesion in our society. But we also particularly saw in the summer, the far right, and we do not want to live in a society where

where you've got Islamists and far-right thugs throwing bricks at each other and moderate mainstream people of all walks of life, all religious backgrounds being caught in the middle. We need to push back against this and reclaim our society, our streets, our online sphere from the extremists for the moderate mainstream in all communities. Yeah, it's never been good for the Jews to be caught in the middle between crusaders and Islamists. We always get squeezed out in the middle. Philip, I want to get your take about this.

um, about the growing Muslim community in the UK. Recently in Israel, uh, the, the, the revelation that Muhammad is the most popular boy's name in Britain made headlines here. Now, Muhammad is also the most popular boy's name in Israel. Uh, and, and, and it doesn't necessarily mean anything because I mean, all it means is there is a minority and

with a very popular name because many of them call their children Muhammad. And the British Muslim community is a minority in Britain, but it is a growing minority. We're talking about 4 million people, about 6% of the total population. It represents a very significant demographic change from a generation ago.

many of them will harbor attitudes that are anti-Israel, not friendly to Israel. That can spill over into hostility perhaps towards the Jewish community as well. And I wonder how you, as the leader of Britain's Jews, react to that change and what you think Britain needs to be doing to ensure that this community is

becomes or is sustained as a peaceful mainstream part of society and that this doesn't become a focal point of hostility towards Israel and to the British Jewish community I mean do you do you see this as a threat to the British Jewish community or or a challenge that you think you're navigating?

I think that there is a challenge. I mean, you know, it's a few, about a month or so ago, I visited Japan, which is an ethnically homogenous society. And you can see that there are

Certainly, there's a sense of bondedness that you struggle with, particularly in larger urban contexts where there's a lot of diversity and communities live alongside each other but don't mesh together so well. That's not to say that multicultural or multiracial societies can't work. It means, though, that it requires more effort to make them work, I think. One of the nice things that happened since my election was that 30 or 40 Muslim leaders wrote to me, some of them publicly, after I was elected and said, let's work together.

And so I invited them in. I thought maybe three or four would come, particularly given the time. And a lot of Muslims struggle to be pictured, particularly with Jewish community leaders. But 30 came. 30 came. Sunni, Shia, more conservative voices, more liberal voices. We also had from the Jewish community, from Haredi to liberal, more progressive Jews, Orthodox, Reform. Everybody came. And we launched what we call the Optimistic Alliance. The new faith's minister, who happens to be Muslim,

This was his first engagement. And what we've started to do is build that out, work on people who are credible leaders within their communities and say, well, how can we work together on these things, whether it's fighting anti-Semitism or anti-Muslim hate? And how can you work together?

Well, there are a lot of issues that we have in common. So the problems of racism that we have as a Jewish community, Muslims experience, obviously, a lot of racism too. And actually, many of the things that we describe as being a problem, whether it's public order, the online sphere, Muslim communities would say, well,

We struggle with that stuff too. So actually there are a lot of, you know, for example, I'll just give you one obvious example. We were very upset very recently when there were these demonstrations just outside the JW3 Jewish community center in the heart of a Jewish area in London. This was a real problem for us. And we want to talk to the police and politicians about making sure that

These demonstrations can't occur outside our synagogues and community buildings. You might say, well, there are quite a lot of Muslims on those demonstrations. But actually, Muslims don't want demonstrations right outside their mosques and community centers, particularly the far right. So we can come to, I think, working with people to say, look,

what are the bounds here? Where can we find common agreement? They would agree, I think Muslim leaders, that the online space is an absolute sewer. So additional regulation, drawing up new rules of the game that protect all communities is really important. As I said to you, extremism affects Muslims. We had recently a

And I've experienced this myself. We go to mosques as Jewish leaders and then there are vicious attacks on, yes, they attack us, but much more than us, they attack the Muslims who are inviting Jews in. It's really vicious and they get harassed. I mean, I went to a mosque and then

They tried to remove the mosque leadership and have a demonstration outside because I turned up there. It's quite astounding. And as much as what they were saying about- Now, hang on, Philip, because I want to hear more about this because I understand on the one hand, there are things that Jewish and Muslim communities have in common, challenges, and therefore there is common ground. But there is also immense pressure and...

And it's not from a small fringe. It's not from a small fringe because I speak with Jewish students, campuses around the world who tell me that non-Jews don't want to talk to them because they're afraid of being branded Zionists. The bullying is mainstream enough that non-Jews are getting bullied out of being friends with Jews. Pressure against normalization with people who are seen as communists.

complicit with genocide. That's how they see it because that's how they wrongly understand the war in Gaza right now. So I wonder in your outrage with the Muslim community, when you say, look, let's talk about the same issues that we have in common and need to work on together, how much pushback is there against Muslims who

for talking to you and to what extent are they willing to speak with you? Because if you're saying that there are still leaders who will welcome you and be photographed with you publicly, I think that's a jolly good thing.

It is, and it does come at a cost. We know that it comes at a cost. At that Optimistic Alliance event, the responses on social media, much of it very positive, but you did have these extremist Muslim groups, and there's a few of them that I can name who they are, sort of say, well, list the Muslims who came. We want to know how many pieces of silver exchanged hands.

Are they Hindus rather than Muslims? They don't look like real God-fearing Muslims. You know, this kind of nonsense. And the harassment is much worse on kind of closed WhatsApp groups within the Muslim community. So we need to push back. I've kind of proposed some measures to government around...

what I call, uh, antisocial cohesion orders where, you know, people would be either temporary or permanently, uh, banned from social media. They would, uh, have telecommunications device bans, companies or charities would be deregistered. Uh, there'd be, uh,

In the worst cases custodial sentences and so asset reads and so on we need to take a tough stance and people said well Hold on a minute with when you do that sort of thing. Don't you just push the problem underground? I say well maybe but the problem at the moment is the moderates are underground and the extremists are above ground and we need to at least reverse that before we can begin to Push things forward. So I think it's a real problem. But by the way, and you know Muslim leaders will say please help us

These extremists are a real problem for us because they come for us. You know, there's a WhatsApp group, a particular council leader who happens to be Muslim. I don't think particularly...

pro-Israel but every day because they haven't turned the whole council agenda from collecting the rubbish and filling in potholes to just and only being about Gaza every day someone wakes up at 6am and tweets such and such person is a genocider or a baby killer every morning at 6am in a closed WhatsApp group in which that person's parents are you know every morning I mean this is this is crazy and so you know I saw him in Camden council where he used to be a councillor um

The mayor of the council, who was a hijab-wearing Muslim woman, not particularly, I'd say, pro-Israel, pro-Palestinian loosely, but was assaulted online, had shoes thrown at the council chamber when she was chairing a meeting. I mean, this is insane stuff. And you were talking earlier about the politicians being harassed. Politicians who voted for an immediate ceasefire against the Labour whip were not spared this.

There were vicious campaigns run against people like Jess Phillips and Shabana Mahmood and Nashar. People who, you know, kind of some of those people voted exactly what these people in theory wanted them to vote, but it didn't stop them being targeted more viciously than at any time. And very personally, we've got a real problem. And I think even the people who might be sympathetic to the Palestinian cause must realize that this is not the way. This is a problem for everybody.

And this is an interesting point, the need to empower the moderates. And I do wonder sometimes whether we overestimate the hostility from the Muslim community. I went back to my old college in Oxford recently to speak to them and met with one student, a Muslim student. She took part in the protests. She objected to the way I characterize them as hate marches. She didn't quite understand the problem with from the river to the sea. But I asked her,

Do you think that after October 7th, Israel had a right to go after Hamas and bring it down? And she said, obviously, October 7th was horrific. I said, I'm really surprised to hear that. She said, why? I said, because outside Israel, I've never heard a Muslim say that Israel had a right to bring down Hamas. She said, well, maybe you should talk to more Muslims. I said, maybe I should.

I said, you know, I debated Mehdi Hassan in New York and he said the most that Israel should have done is go and try to arrest Yehia Sinwa. And she said, well, not all of us are Mehdi Hassan. I said, well, that's a good thing to hear. But you're right that they're under threat from extremists as well. And we have to push back against them. And I hope that the fact

that even those who voted for a ceasefire and whatever came under pressure, had these pro-Gaza independents running against them. Jess Phillips, you mentioned, was re-elected by a Hezbollah. Well, perhaps give them food for thought about to what extent you pamper the extremists rather than pushing back forcefully against them. But I want to understand specifically on the Israel issue. Yeah.

You have a funny position because you're the leader of the British Jewish community and your role is to look out for Britain's Jews. But part of the threat to Britain's Jews is the wave of hostility towards Israel. We can't separate them. And for all criticism we had with the previous British government, much better than most governments in the world in terms of its support for Israel, points of criticism, there has been a shift with the new Labour government.

whether it's switching on funding for UNRWA, suspending certain arms licenses. Tell me, how has the new Labour government shifted in its policy towards Israel? And where do you think that's going? Can Israel still rely on the UK as an ally? I think it can in the main. And I'll get into some of those difficulties and where things we spoke out against them. But

Bear in mind that when Iran attacked Israel again, British planes went into the sky. Actually, they didn't get there because Israel dealt with the issue quicker than the British planes could get there. But the prime minister underlined that British troops will be put on the line to defend Israel's security. The pressure that the UK government will apply to Iran is something that's noted. That, you know,

As you said, they've spoken out against the genocide, quote-unquote libel. So the British government has Israel's back on certain things. What I do think is important to note, though, is that our government is led by some very prominent lawyers. Keir Starmer is a human rights lawyer. The Attorney General, Richard Hamm, is a human rights lawyer, a very prominent human rights lawyer, happens to be Jewish. David Lamb, the Foreign Secretary, is a lawyer.

And one of the key arguments in the general election was around international law. You know, Labour accused the Conservatives of taking a kind of flippant attitude to international legal obligations. And this is one of the things that they've said that would reset. So they do see things as lawyers very much through the frame of international law. One of the points we've made, though, is that if you think international law, international institutions and international politics are three distinct things, you

you've got another thing coming. They highly influence one another. For example, if you look at the ICJ, the fact that only Israel is on trial for supposed genocide crimes when Hamas went house to house murdering people on the supposition that they were Jewish is a vagary and an abuse of the international legal system because Hamas is not a state, it will not be brought before that, the ICJ in the same way. And South Africa knows that, that this is a highly politicized

move and we should be clear about it. The fact that UNRWA, you know, that Palestinians are the only refugee population in the world that have a kind of, they pass down refugee status, the only people in the world, shows that international law has been kind of changed and shifted as respect to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And of course in the UN Human Rights Council, item 7,

where, you know, item four deals with every, there's a standing agenda item, item four deals with every human rights situation in the world. And Israel is the only country with its own agenda item, shows that these international institutions, international law have been somewhat,

and quite a lot politicized. And we need to be clear about that. And we try and reshape international. We want international to be a good and even and equal standard. Israel shouldn't be exempt, but neither should it be particularly and unfairly targeted. And I think that's the word. Such a huge difference there. Such a huge difference there between how Britain perceives international law and Israel perceives it. Because Britain, of course, sitting on the UN Security Council, sees international law as...

as something that strengthens its international position. Israelis look at international law, see how it's been twisted by certain agencies and weaponized against Israel, wonder when international resolutions have ever come to Israel's defense. The answer is they never have. Much more cynical, much more skeptical. And one of the points that I've been trying to make, at least, is how badly served Britain is by the international institutions it relies on.

to protect international peace and security that have been weaponized against Israel, that have been given cover for terrorists that have been undermining their own interests. And I wonder what you think that Israel can be doing, Israel can be saying to make it easier for our supporters in the UK to continue to have our back, because we understand they're under pressure.

But there are also certain misunderstandings and perhaps things we do that are less helpful for Britain. So what can Israel do and say to shore up our support in Britain? Well, we need to multiply you, Elon. That would be a helpful start. Working on it. Israel's PR has never been its absolutely strongest suite. And frankly, often it feels that Israel's

government sees its role as talking very much narrowly to own subsections of Israel's population rather than the international community, which has kind of undermined it. And it takes bright spots like you to actually begin to change that around. And I think, you know, thank you for everything you've been doing over these last 14 months and indeed longer.

I think there are a few things. We need less unforced errors. Some of the stuff that comes out of the mouths of Ben Gvir and Smotrich let us down. Let us down big time. They are...

sometimes racist, sometimes extremist, sometimes anti-sections of the Jewish community even. And this does not help us. This does not help unite the potential support blocs. It's telling that a lot of the material that's raised in ICJ and other things are not actually Israel's conduct on the battlefield, but statements by these people. And when Israel's soldiers are putting their lives on the line,

sort of just thuggish and stupid statements that undermine Israel's international standing, I think are really unhelpful. So less unforced errors, I think is really, really important. Clearly, you know, in the right way, in the right time, winning and bringing an end to this horrible war will be important. And finding a resolution. I completely understand

you know, after the shock of 7th October, why, you know, Israel has had to fight and to defeat Hamas. But we've got to remember something really important. Hamas launched this war

There were a couple of factors that launched why it launched this horrific attack at the time it did. One was it saw Israel divided. And I think there's a lesson there about trying to not have measures that are so divided in Israel's population. Let's not be divided as the state of Israel or the people of Israel to the extent that we cannot be. Let's take wise decisions on that. But second of all, they saw as an immediate and serious threat, the potential normalization with Saudi Arabia.

Because if Saudi Arabia normalizes with Israel, that is game over for Iran, for Hamas, for all of these people. They know that their issue is done. So they launched this attack and unfortunately very successfully changed, shifted the dial, made that, delayed that, forced communities against each other around the world. It was a very calculated move. So victory against Hamas, yes, is partly a military thing, but it's also about getting the things that Hamas were trying to avoid.

We've got to have more unity in Israel. We've got to normalize with Saudi Arabia. That will be the great defeat. And as much as this is very difficult, the relationship with the Palestinians...

I think 7th October also shows that the policy of conflict management has its limits. It has not succeeded because as much as you can build walls and reinforce them, people will fly over them. People will tunnel under them if they're desperate to do so. Ultimately, we need a resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Probably the two-state solution seems to be the best option of all that there are. It's not easy. It's not immediate. It's going to take a lot of things to do, but I think

actually Israel's best defense will be ultimately long-term stable peace and that's what we've got to work towards however hard it is and I appreciate just how hard it is Israel doesn't have an easy partner with the Palestinians certainly not with Hamas really no authority not either but that will be the best long-term guarantee of Israel's security and I think will also support the conversation uh in the region and around the world including the UK

Not at all. And you throw out the two-state solution there as if it's obvious that this is the solution to the conflict. The Israeli public is not there anymore. The Israeli public is not there because they see how the withdrawals from Gaza and Lebanon exploded in our face. They ask why we should be confident that what happened in Gaza won't happen in Farsaba. If we withdraw from the West Bank, they think it would create an Iranian client state. Yeah.

And no one around the West, unfortunately, is engaging with Israelis' legitimate concerns about what their demands would involve. We are not seeing from any of the countries that have pressured Israel into making withdrawals and concessions a little bit of cheshbon nefesh, a little bit of internal accounting about what they pushed Israel to do, to take responsibility. I think that

I don't think the conditions for peace exist at the moment. I think we have to create a pathway to peace. That pathway goes through the containment of the Iranian regime so it cannot undermine stability everywhere. And it passes through de-radicalization within Palestinian community and society because when they see people on the streets of your city in London chanting from the river to the sea and globalize the intifada, you are talking about strengthening the moderates in Britain, right?

This isn't strengthening the moderates in the Palestinian territories. It's strengthening the extremists who think that time is on their side. And what we really need from the UK, whatever political solution we're going to reach in Israel in our conflict with the Palestinians, is to focus on building that pathway. And that pathway goes through ending the Palestinians'

century-long, forever war against Israel. It means cutting off funding to UNRWA, the refugee agency that exists to perpetuate this conflict. Unfortunately, I think we see the UK slipping into the same old patterns that end up reinforcing and exacerbating

this conflict. And so my request would be, you know, in your conversations with the British government, please help them understand how the cries of globalize the intifada and from the river to the sea on the streets of London are strengthening extremists here and pushing away any prospect of peace. I wonder whether you think that October 7th has in any way triggered any sort of

original thinking or re-evaluation of basic assumptions about the peace process in the Middle East or whether politicians are just

slipping back to the same cliches as if as if october 7th hasn't changed everything i think i think everyone's aware that october 7th has changed things you know i i think about the two-state solution a bit like i think it was churchill said democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others and i sometimes think the same about the two-state solution it might be the worst solution except for all the others um

Look, it's obviously not something that can happen overnight. And one of the things that we've been very clear to the UK government, quite like you said, is there was talk, has talk of recognition of the Palestinian state.

And we've said, you know, we support, the Board of Deputies supports a two-state solution, but you cannot recognize the state in a way that rewards the terrorism of Hamas or gives the Palestinian Authority the sense it does not need to make serious concessions to Israel's security and future well-being to get there. So yes to a Palestinian state in the right context, but we've got quite a lot, as you say rightly, to get there to...

assuage the completely legitimate concerns of Israelis that they don't want a terror state in the West Bank, as they've seen, unfortunately, in Gaza. These are completely legitimate concerns. What I say, though, only is,

you know, what is the other solution? Conflict management has failed and that the desperation and anger that we see as a result of just kind of stringing this out has only made matters worse. So,

this cannot happen overnight. That's absolutely clear. There needs to be a process of de-radicalization in the Palestinian, um, in the, in Palestinian society. But let's drive towards that end and make, and make, and make the step, take the steps that we need to take to get there. I'm actually, you know, um, uh, I,

I'm always looking for routes towards optimism, right? And I think that we have this unlikely combination that might get us there in the form of President Trump and Saudi Arabia. You know, President Trump was the last person to put a potential two-state solution on the table in the form of

a defined border the palestinians completely rejected it as by the way they have every other peace offer doesn't mean it's not not the right thing to pursue and saudi arabia said you know the price for normalization is steps concrete steps towards the uh some sort of palestinian state and actually normalization as i say with with saudi arabia israel's absolute interest i think donald trump um you know did push forward the abraham accords

Maybe there's something in there because we do not want forever wars, as you say. We need to find a way to bring it to an end whilst being absolutely clear or idealistic about maintaining and ensuring Israel's security in any resolution that we have. Well, we can agree to disagree about what an ultimate resolution of the conflict would look like. And it's also possible that there are problems that do not afford resolution.

any solution that cannot be solved, at least not within present circumstances and conditions. And, and there needs to be major transformation for a solution to become possible. But I do think it is important for you to stress in your conversations with, with the British government, how the Israeli left has shifted as well. We had on this podcast, Fania Oz. And one thing she said really struck me. She's the daughter of course, of the, um, late Israeli novelist, Amos Oz, uh,

celebrated historian and writer in her own right, a veteran of the peace movement who says, look, I support a Palestinian state. It's not going to happen next year. It's definitely not going to happen in five, maybe in 10, but it's going to be conditional on major transformation of Palestinian society in a way that is not

something that could be taken for granted or assumed it will be automatic and will need Western leaders to take seriously how they have been making the situation worse through a funding of UNRWA, for example. But Philip, since you did mention optimism, I do want to try to end on an optimistic note. And I'm not sure that we can because it was not that long ago that there was a poll showing that a majority of young Brits don't believe that Israel has a right to exist at all.

I've seen how the atmosphere on campuses, I mentioned I went back to Oxford recently, has soured against Israel. It terrifies me to think that these will be journalists in five years, political staffers, MPs in 10 years if they retain these opinions. A British society that doesn't think Israel should exist is not going to be a warm and inclusive home for Britain's Jews. There's no way you can escape that. So I wonder, as you shepherd Israel,

the British Jewish community. Are you optimistic that the British Jewish community has a future? And what does that future look like? I am optimistic. One of the great pleasures of my role is to travel around the UK visiting communities

And there is so much great stuff happening, so many dynamic synagogues, charities, organizations that we see. One of the things that I'm really intent on is changing the narrative a bit about the UK Jewish community. You will know that the only public commemoration of Jewish life in the UK at the moment, official public commemoration, is Holocaust Memorial Day. And the only compulsory teaching about Jews in the curriculum is Holocaust education. Both of these things are incredibly important.

However, it can't be right that the only- None of which, by the way, take any account of Britain's role in blocking ships of Holocaust refugees from arriving at safe haven in the land of Israel. It's not.

But anyway. Yeah, I mean, we need to be absolutely clear that Britain should have absolutely not taken those actions and done more to bomb the lines into Auschwitz and so on. Absolutely. But notwithstanding that, it's important that we have this education. But it can't be right that the British public knows that there were dead Jews in Europe, but doesn't learn about living Jews in the UK and the contribution we make to UK society, economy and culture.

So one of the things that I say, and I said to the Prime Minister, we want to launch a British Jewish Culture Month to celebrate our community and all that we're giving to this country. I love the UK Jewish community, which is probably a good qualification to do what I do. And I think that if we invite people in, they'll love us too.

And I think that one of the things we've got to do much more of is to be out there, to be proud of who we are and to show people the amazing things that we've built for our community, but the amazing contribution we're also making to our society. So whether it's, you know, this weekend, I was at the largest synagogue in the country. It has five services running concurrently across different sites. You know, it's just incredible growing community. And the UK community, by the way, is growing from the last census to this one.

where it's the L'mud Festival, where almost 1,500, 2,000 Jews will come together to celebrate all aspects of British Jewish culture. That's really important. And one of the other things about this change to a British Jewish Culture Month is, and the education that we're putting out, we launched a joint...

education resource with the Anti-Defamation League is we need to teach people that anti-Semitism isn't just far-right Nazi anti-Semitism, though that still matters and still something we have to be concerned about. It is the far-left. It is Islamist extremism. We need to teach them about the importance of Israel to us and explain not just why it's important to us, but why Israel should be important to them, how Israel is important

in so many ways on the front line of many of the challenges that our societies face too. So this is really important. We do need to shift the gear in terms of the education, in terms of the way that Jews are marked. But I see a lot of reason to celebrate. We have big challenges. We've absolutely got to fight against the anti-Semitism. We've got to fight back against the bias that we see in many places against Israel. But we've got to celebrate what we've got as well. And actually that celebration will help us in those other endeavors too.

President Rosenberg, I love the idea of a British-Jewish relationship.

history month or culture month. I'm a big genealogy buff and I've managed to trace my own family history in Britain back to the mid 18th century. I think that my great, great, great, great, whatever, were among the first Ashkenazi Jews in the UK. And it's impossible to tell the story of modern Britain without the role that British Jews have played. So really credit to you

in not only fighting against anti-Semitism and keeping the memory of the Holocaust alive, but also trying to strengthen the morale and self-confidence and identity of the British Jewish community. President Philip Rosenberg of the British Board of Deputies of British Jews, thank you very much for joining us. Thank you so much. And Elon, we're so proud of you. You're a great British export to Israel. Thanks for all you do for Israel and Jewish people. Thank you, Philip. And just finally, how can people follow you specifically and your work?

And well, our website is bod.org.uk. We're very much on social media, on X, on Instagram, LinkedIn, get involved. We are trying to change the board so that it's much more of a platform for activism using our 300 deputies and the 300,000 British Jews to be much more active in terms of engaging politicians, faith leaders, local media, and so on. So please, it's the right time to get involved. So do follow us and do get involved. It'd be great to be in touch.

As they say, 300 deputies, 500 opinions. Absolutely. That's the joy we have.