Who Owns Jerusalem? | Archeology, Politics & the War Over Truth
59:43 Share

Every time a hand goes on the ground and you come up with a piece of pottery and people do this all day long, you clean it and it's got Hebrew writing and it predates Islam by 1600 years, predates the writing of Arabic, predates Christianity. What can you say? And so they saw this not as a beautiful cultural contribution to Jewish history, as an absolute silver bullet in the narrative that they are putting out.

Hello and welcome to this special Passover edition of State of a Nation. I'm Elon Levy. The Romans have the ancient forum, the Greeks have the Acropolis, and the Jews have not the Temple Mount, which in biblical terms, historical terms, is not that old. The city of David.

Located just outside the old city walls, around the Arab village neighborhood of East Jerusalem known as Silwan, the City of David is the biblical core of ancient Jerusalem, the most ancient site known from ancient Jewish control of our capital city. And it is, some would say, a controversial flashpoint. Because the battle over the City of David is a battle over history itself. There is a battle over history.

The Palestinians claim that the Jews in the Land of Israel are foreign interlopers, colonizers, foreign agents who have no connection to the land. But the City of David? The City of David that shows an ancient Jewish connection going back over 3,000 years? Tells the truth about the antiquity and indigeneity of the Jewish people in the Land of Israel. That's why so many Palestinians and Arabs are angry about it because it undercuts their claim.

that they are the original indigenous inhabitants and the Jews have no rights to any of the land in the Land of Israel. My guest today is Doron Speilman. You'll know him, of course, from the Israeli Citizen Spokesperson's Office as a former IDF spokesman. He's been on the podcast before, but he joins me now as the former vice president of the City of David Foundation, which is developing this ancient site.

And Iran has just released a new book, When the Stones Speak, The Remarkable Discovery of the City of David, and What Israel's Enemies Don't Want You to Know. So what don't they want you to know? You're about to find out in this episode. Join me as we dive beyond the headlines.

And between the lines. Doron Spielman, welcome back to State of a Nation. Ilan Levy, it's good to be here. The last time you were here, you were in your capacity as a former IDF spokesperson. Now you're in capacity as former vice president of the City of David Foundation. I'm wondering, who was the last person who held the title vice president of the City of David? Was it Yoav or Jonathan or Yehoshaphat? Who had that title in biblical times? It wasn't David. It wasn't David. I know who to look up to, but...

You're scaring me because you're basically saying my life is a series of formers. Well, I don't know. What's your future? That's the question. And that's exactly what this episode is about. We're going to be looking at the formers, at Jewish history, at the war to try to erase Jewish history, at the work you've been doing to preserve that history and understand how that sets us up here in the land of Israel for our future.

You know, just a few months ago, we took the whole team here at the Citizen Spokesperson's Office to the City of David for a fun day as a team, a bonding exercise, because I wanted everyone to touch the stones of our ancient history and understand in greater detail what we are fighting for in our ancient connections in this land. So, you know, why don't you start us off by telling us what is the City of David? Why are you involved in this project?

Well, first of all, I got involved in the project by mistake that I can tell you. When I first came to Israel, I made Aliyah. I was serving in the army. And when I finished being my initial serving as a spokesperson in the army, I went to work in high tech in Tel Aviv, 30th floor of the Israeli tower. Very, very cushy job.

And the army called me in for an emergency call into Bethlehem. I don't know if you remember, there was a siege on the Church of the Nativity. Back during the Second Intifada. The Second Intifada. Over 20 years ago. Incredibly bloody. People on my street had been killed. There were bombs and buses blowing up everywhere. And the terrorists had retreated into Bethlehem and gone into the Church of the Nativity. And the IDF had followed them in hot pursuit. And the amazing thing was I was sitting on the 38th floor looking out at the Mediterranean Sea when I got the phone call.

We need a spokesperson in Bethlehem. Can you come? This is where it gets crazy. I went home. I put on my uniform in Jerusalem. I was living in Katamon, which is only a few minutes away. In order to get to the front, Elon,

I drove my car 10 minutes from Katamon to the entrance of Bethlehem, left my car on the side of the road. I mean, only in Israel is this how you get to the front. Right. It's not like if the American army calls someone up and says, we need you on the front. Okay, now you're getting in a military aircraft that's going to take you to Afghanistan. Right. It's like, can you hop in your car? It's the next turning on the left. I'm telling you, the 300 checkpoint,

It's 10 minutes from my door. I parked my car. By the way, there were tons of cars there. Got into an armored personnel carrier. And before I knew it, I was at the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem. Where was the IDF center? There's a building there called the Palestine Center for Peace. That was the IDF headquarters. Encouraging. Encouraging. Right? Encouraging. Ironic. And Hamas, of course, turned that into peace, as we know.

And there's a central plaza in front of the church, which is Menara Plaza. That's where everything takes place. You had the church on one side where the Hamas terrorists were. You had the idea of headquarters. And then you had snipers on buildings. One day I was sitting there. As a matter of fact, Ted Koppel had just come. The old Ted Koppel, who was a prime American anchor, he had just left. I was kind of relaxing while we got Ted Koppel out of our hair when there was screaming in the plaza next to the church.

I look into the plaza, which is no man's land because there's snipers, and a group of people carrying bags of food run right in front of our building towards the church. I immediately vest on. The paratroopers who were in this area with me, they come running downstairs. We run into the plaza. We realize there are people that are trying to break the siege to give food and medical supplies to the Hamas terrorists in the church.

The first group made it in. The second group, I played American football. We literally tackled on the ground. They immediately linked arms and took out a huge sign that said, end the occupation, end the occupation. So this is my entrance in the city of David. We're getting there. I look at the group. Immediately I size up that these are college students.

There are shots being fired in the air over our heads. Israeli snipers were firing shots at Hamas snipers to let them know, don't fire at the people down here and think they're Israeli. These are actually people bringing you food. You couldn't write this even better. Sorry, the IDF snipers are shooting at the Hamas snipers so that they won't shoot at the people trying to bring food to the Hamas snipers. Exactly. Exactly. Okay, that makes sense. It makes perfect sense, right? We're in the Middle East. Yeah.

Now the group is looking and the IDF commander that's next to me, I look at this group and immediately size up. And this is years before BDS. These are college kids. This is like a setup. They were waiting for this moment. The IDF commander goes to lift up one of them and he shakes off the IDF commander's arms. Now I realize the IDF is thinking, we're going to get these guys inside of our building. However, we have to do it before we get killed. He reaches down to haul up this guy.

I put my hand in them. I said, give me one minute to talk to them. And I said, then listen, I'm getting married. This was in March. Mazel Tov. Thank you. This is many years ago. Mazel Tov. Thank you. Thank you. I'll always take it. I'm getting married in June. I want to make it to my wedding. If you really are against the occupation, say you're against violence, move inside this building. Now, the group kind of got dislodged. They were expecting a hardcore Israeli tough guy. And I see they're all speaking to a girl sitting at their feet.

And I clearly, she's on the phone, a cell phone. I look down and I freeze. I couldn't speak. Finally, I caught my breath and I say to this girl, Joita, she looks up at me. She doesn't know who I am. She can't recognize me. I say, we're not at the University of Michigan anymore. I need you to move inside this building.

The girl's name was Hawaida Araf. She was one of the organizers of this group. She went on to organize ISM, which is the International Solidarity Movement, which was the precursor to BDS. She ended up leading the flotilla into Gaza. She and I... That tried to go into Gaza. Tried to go into Gaza. Six years before this, she and I co-led the Arab-Israeli dialogue at the University of Michigan. We were good friends. She came with me to Hillel for Shabbat dinner. She is now in Bethlehem in charge of this group.

She recognizes who I am. She starts to cry. The group goes numb. Their leader's crying. We move them into the building. And to cut a long story short, her way down there, I had a 12-hour conversation because the Israeli army wanted me to get all their details.

in which essentially this girl, who had been logical, had spent time with me in Hillel, we had been able to discuss intellectually the Arab-Israeli conflict, she told me, we are not going to stop fighting until we return to the 1948 borders. And I said, Huweta, you mean the 1967 borders? She says, no, you talk 1967, we talk 1948.

I'm Imogen Folks, the host of Inside Geneva, a podcast where we tackle the big questions facing our planet. Can UN investigations bring more criminals to justice? Does the world need a pandemic treaty? What about climate change or refugees? Should we ban autonomous weapons? Some call them killer robots.

Get the answers you need with me and our expert guests twice a month on Inside Geneva, free with your usual podcast app. Yeah, that's what they're chanting on the college campuses now. We don't want no 48. We want all of it. Exactly. But back then, think about 2002. I was a college kid under Bill Clinton, right? I thought Oslo Accords.

This is a new world. Even George, I mean, everyone was talking, I was like, it wasn't clear to me. Oh, it's been a sobering realization that when they chant from the river to the sea, they actually mean it. They mean it. And it's not just a talking point. And that sets up what the battle over the city of David is and the broader battle over archaeology in the land of Israel, which is what I want to discuss in this episode, which is a battle for ownership and history and land claims. So how does this very long story

and fascinating story that you told me explain how you came to be working with the city of David and for those who aren't familiar standing on one leg as Rabbi Hillel would say what is the city of David okay after this encounter with Huweta I had some version of PTSD I went back to my office in Tel Aviv and I couldn't concentrate Huweta's voice 1948 1948 I realized no more Israel

That's it. Israel's over and she is committed to the Palestinian narrative. And I looked at the soldiers who were in the room while I was talking to her and they didn't know what to say. I turned to a friend of mine and said, listen, I want to do something for Israel. I'm a spokesperson of the IDF, but I can't function in high tech. Where can I go to help us work on a history? And he said to me, I want you to come with me to an excavation in Jerusalem called the City of David.

I'd lived in Jerusalem and I didn't know where it was. The city of David, the reason I didn't know is why no one knew. The city of David is actually Jerusalem from the Bible. What's the problem, Alon? When you look at the picture postcard of Jerusalem, what do you see? The old city walls, the western wall, the Temple Mount, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. All of those are inside the old city walls. The actual city of David, the actual Jerusalem from the Bible is not in those walls whatsoever.

So he takes me to a village outside the old city walls where we go deep underneath the ground with an archaeologist who's digging up an entire stairway going deep underneath the ground to a water source. And I realized, and I'd lived in Jerusalem, I'm not a Bible scholar, but I know the Bible, that this is the actual tunnel that is 2,000 years older than anything found in the old city that was used by King David to conquer Jerusalem.

That is the city of David. It was the buried gem of Jerusalem that was forgotten over history underneath the sands of time. This is it. But that is, if I understand correctly, a matter of some archaeological dispute whether the city of David is the original city from which King David ruled and was the palace of David.

David himself. I mean, that's not something that is universally accepted by all biblical archaeologists, is it? It's good that you're asking this question. What is accepted firmly now by 98% of people, and I'll tell you a story about this, is that there is no doubt that the city of David is the actual city of David.

It is 2,000 years older than the old city. We have found walls that surrounded the city that are 2,000 years older. There's no question it's an entire two millennia older than the old city. When you say old city, you mean the Suleiman the Magnificent walls, which are only from the 16th century. They're from the 16th. Not that old. Not that old. And the Western Wall and everything in there, you have things that are 2,000 years old. Right. Those are Herodian. Herodian. But for us, that's new.

That's where everything has to change. So, you know, I'll tell you. I began working for the City of David. In 2004, this will answer your question, Dr. Eilat Mazar, may she rest in peace, an incredible archaeologist, she called me on the phone. It was a Thursday night.

She had just gotten permission to dig next to our offices. We had these little offices in the city of David. Only a few things had been found. We were just getting off the ground. She was convinced that King David's palace was somewhere in the area of the city of David. She digs next to our offices. She goes 20 feet down and she hits directly underneath our offices a wall. So now, by the way, when I walk out the front door of my office, there's a cliff.

going down. I see this wall. She's taking pottery samples out, and there was a disagreement. As you said, how do you date pottery? Now, how do you date pottery? You find pottery here. You find pottery there. You try to match dates, but it doesn't give you much. So a number of archaeologists say to Elat, well, that pottery, it's not that old. It's maybe time of Herod, the year zero. She says, no, this is older. They're going back and forth. Meanwhile, she's uncovering beneath my office. She calls me on a Thursday evening in 2004.

And she says to me, do you have your Bible with you? I'm at home. I said, I'll go look for one. So I run and get a Bible off my shelf. This was before you had safari.org. Exactly. Before I had Safari and Google. When the Bible was an actual book and not a website. So I said, a lot like, what are you? She goes, trust me, go get your Bible. So I'm at home. I run and go get my Bible. She goes, open up to the book of Jeremiah. So I'm flipping. I don't know the book of Jeremiah.

She said, turn to chapter 36. Open chapter 36. She goes, I'm just going to summarize. Jeremiah the prophet forecast that the temple is going to be destroyed. This is the first temple of Jerusalem because the Jews were committing sins. God is going to leave them. There's going to be a punishment. Jeremiah goes to the king, who is King David's great-great-grandson, and he says some Jerusalem is going to be destroyed. He says, get this crazy prophet out of here.

They take the prophet Jeremiah and they move him away from the palace. He keeps prophesying. He's telling everyone the city is going to be destroyed. Four of the king's messengers, led by a guy named Yuhal, go and hear Jeremiah and they see all the soldiers are running away. They go back to the king and say, we've got to kill this guy. There's not going to be... Babylon is getting close to destroy us and you've got this crazy man? He says, Yuhal, do with him as you will.

They take Jeremiah and they throw him into a mud pit, water cistern underneath the ground and put a cover on it. He was a bit of a nutmeg. He was. He was. Right? The prophets, usually that was their job. Later that night, Jeremiah set free. The city is destroyed. Ninth of Av, completely destroyed. She says to me, you see the name Yuhal, the son of Shlomei, who tried to kill the prophet Jeremiah?

Yesterday, out of the ground, one of my excavators pulled out a clay seal that was stamped originally on an envelope and I just deciphered the name. Yuhal, the son of Shlemia, the same guy that tried to kill the prophet Jeremiah. Underneath my office, she found the actual clay seal of Yuhal, which would go on to find seal after seal after seal, which means there is a debate. There are always debates.

What is absolutely not a debate is that Jerusalem from the Bible is in the city of David, and there's probably no other culture in the world that can unleash these things. However, as soon as that happened to Elon, that is where, and what very much my book speaks about, it sent out shockwaves throughout the world

It woke up a lot of people who love the Bible. And negative, it woke up a lot of people who wanted to silence this. And let's talk about that. You have just published a book, When the Stones Speak, which you subtitle.

Your subtitle as being about what the world, the remarkable discovery of the city of David and what Israel's enemies don't want you to know. Because if the discovery of this clay seal had been in any other archaeological site in the world, it would have been hard. That's interesting. That's fascinating. That's really cool. But archaeological discoveries in the land of Israel and specifically in Jerusalem suddenly have a political dimension because they feed into an argument about who was here first.

And to what extent does it matter who was here first in terms of land ownership and who has the stronger claim over the land? So before we dive into this discussion about the attempts to erase Jewish history, the attempts to prove Jewish history, I want to ask you, I mean, why does any of this matter? Why does it matter who was here first and who can prove that they have a more ancient connection to this land? It was all a long time ago. If what the Palestinians claim today in their history is

that they were here and that we are foreign interlopers in this land with no connection to the land of Israel. If they're right, Elon, then we should leave. And if they're right, that we are foreign interlopers in the land and that they were here first and essentially delegitimize Israeli history and Jewish history, they're delegitimizing the foundations of Christianity.

And if they delegitimize the foundations of Christianity, they're delegitimizing almost the entire Western world. No, they have their cake and eat it. I mean, Jesus was a Palestinian, but Judas was still a Jew, right? But they claim, what's the whole claim today? What's the name? What did they call the war that we're fighting right now? The Al-Aqsa Flood. I remember standing in Sderot...

Two kilometers from the fighting. And I said, why are they calling it the Al-Aqsa flood? Al-Aqsa is the other word for the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Because they were trying to reach Jerusalem. Because they're trying to reach Jerusalem. The whole battle that we are facing today is over the values and culture that come out of Jerusalem. Is it going to be an Islamic type of city that is exclusive and all-encompassing? Is it going to be a Jewish value?

that is a house of all prayer for all nations. And do we have a right to be here? They've taught an entire generation of people that are chanting now in the streets of London and the streets of New York, from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free. Why? Because you and I, according to this theory, are an arm of colonialism. What shatters this myth and is incredibly inconvenient for them

is one place more than any other, the city of David. Every time a hand goes on the ground and you come up with a piece of pottery and people do this all day long, you clean it and it's got Hebrew writing and it predates Islam by 1600 years, predates the writing of Arabic, predates Christianity.

What can you say? And so they saw this not as a beautiful cultural contribution to Jewish history, as an absolute silver bullet in the narrative that they are putting out. And that is why they took a bullseye and put directly in the center the city of David. Right, because the Palestinian narrative is the Palestinians were here in this land, happily minding their own business, being farmers. And then along came these Jewish interlopers from Europe who...

who have nothing to do with ancient Israel, and Jesus was a Palestinian anyway. And they colonized our land, and we were here first, the Palestinians say. And to that end, they invest such intense efforts to deny that there was ever a Jewish temple on the Temple Mount, that there is any Jewish history, because they think...

on their terms, it genuinely matters who was here first and that antiquity gives national rights over the lands. That's why they have to go to such absurd lengths to deny that there was any Jewish connection to the land so that they can say, we were here first. And that means that these European colonizers who have nothing to do with this territory should bugger off and leave. And that means that archaeology here is intensely political because we find ourselves in this battle to show the ancient connections of

as ancient connections that give national rights to land. And that makes the city of David is often called controversial, right? Most good things are. And I always wanted something that was going to be interesting. When you're dealing with something that lies at the nerve center of

of religion, spirituality, and culture, and the clash of civilizations. We are looking at a clash of civilizations. I mean, it is now clear to everyone in Israel. Israel for years thought that Hamas was just kind of doing a show of force in order to prove its position in the world. But no, they actually came, like you said, to conquer Jerusalem. What lies at the very center

is the very, very source, the source story of the Jewish people. And if we're going to stand up in the world today and believe that we have a country of Israel, it's not because of Balfour in 1917. It's not even because of 1948. Why are we here? What is our claim?

Our claim is that we were forcefully evicted from this land 2,000 years ago, and we have been coming back ever since we left. We came back peacefully. We bought the land. It's all good. But when you have another side, what happens? Israel presents facts. The other side tells a compelling story that is very, very unfactual. We have an incredibly compelling story. We've done a great job telling our story, the exodus from Egypt. Who doesn't know the exodus from Egypt?

We've done an awful job telling our story of how we were exiled from our land and come back and continuing where our ancestors left off. That is really what I'm trying to do in the book, to enable the story to come to light and show the forces that are willing to do almost anything, including murder, to try to stop the discoveries in the city of David from coming to light.

And there's been an incredible journey. We faced incredibly tough times. Talk to me about those. Tell me about the Palestinian campaign against the city of David because they understand how earth shattering its revelations are. And more broadly about the battle against Jewish antiquities and Jewish archaeology throughout the land of Israel.

Before I came to the city of David, the largest archaeological devastation that took place in world history took place in Jerusalem. The Temple Mount, which is the holiest site for Jews, the third holiest site for Muslims, Islam, the Waqf, the Palestinian Authority religious branch, went into the Temple Mount and over the course of six weeks in 1999 dumped 15,000 tons of

Why did...

I mean, I've taken part in the Temple Mount Sifting Project. It's still going on, going through the piles and piles and piles of dirt to find the buried treasures that were inside the Temple Mount. Why did the Yehuda Barak government let this happen?

That's a great question. Part of it goes back to the idea that Netanyahu was the original one to negotiate to try to calm riots in Jerusalem by enabling the Palestinians to expand a mosque in the Temple Mount. The condition was that it be done under archaeological supervision. He gets voted out. Barak gets voted in. Barak is trying to negotiate to give away everything. He's scared to try to upset them. Sorry, Netanyahu was negotiating the terms to allow the Palestinians to dig a new mosque in the Temple Mount.

into the Temple Mount. - Correct, that was under his reign. - That's insane. - It's insane and absolutely a blight on history. Again, this is the time when we were told, don't upset them, let's try to keep peace, let's Oslo Accords, this is the whole idea. - Appeasement. - Absolute appeasement. Barak comes in, not only does he allow under pressure because they threatened to riot if he wouldn't allow them, he does not send in an archeologist. The Palestinian Authority archeologist, Nasheh, Dr. Nasheh, flies to Egypt during these six weeks.

With no archaeological supervision, bulldozers come in and create a mosque to try to change. It's crime against humanity. It is. It's crime against history. And to try to change the reality. The goal was, by the way, and Israel stopped this, was to import water from Mecca, from the Zamzam String, to put the water in the Temple Mount to make it a holy site like Mecca. Israel stopped this. So this is the battle. I'll tell you my experience with the battle. So this happened before I came to the City of David. So we knew the clock was ticking.

We uncovered in the same year, 2004, a pool at the bottom of the city of David known as the Siloam Pool, the original bathing point, the mikvah, the ritual bath source to go up to the temple. Incredible discovery. And next to the Siloam Pool, we uncover a staircase, which we're still digging to this day. I go in detail in the book. It goes all the way from the pool up to the Western Wall, originally went up to the Temple Mount. The original pilgrimage journey begins.

of Judaism, the cornerstone of Christianity. We took the team there, walking along the, you're walking on the stones, the original stone slabs that carried the pilgrims up from the Pool of Shiloh all the way up to the Temple Mount. And you could see that they're still smooth from the leather sandals of the people who walked up it during Temple times. It's incredible, right? I mean, you saw it. Yeah. So we were digging this. Two years later, 2006, I'm driving my car up the City of David and I'm always listening to the sounds of the digging. I hear nothing.

Nothing. No one's working. It's a Sunday. Sunday's a work day in Israel. I go to our offices. I see in the offices the Israel Antiquities Authority, National Parks Authority, City of David, and the police. I walk in. They show me a sign they'd taken off a telephone pole with the names of every single one of our workers. Red ink,

on the page with a threat of death, including Arab laborers from the area. It was very much in our interest. Let's have Arabs and Jews dig this together. They were doing it for years. It was a protest by the Muslim Brotherhood, the Northern Islamic Movement, where they had a man whose name is Raeed Salak, who is a functionary of Iran, riling them up. They threatened our workers' lives for digging.

The workers turned to us, they said, "Listen, wait for this to blow over. Let's just give us a few weeks." We said, "No, if you don't stand up to them now, they'll come back in a few weeks." Why do they want to stop this dig? Fascinating. They understood. Ra'id Saleh began to claim, and he wrote this in the same day, "Every Arab should rise up in arms because this is threatening al-Aqsa." The road doesn't, we're not digging the road through al-Aqsa. What did he see? And this is what they're trying to stop. He saw something we didn't see.

He realized that this road is the ancient pilgrimage journey of the Jews. There's a word for that. Hajj. Exactly. Hajj. In Hebrew, we say hajj. The hajj. He realized, wait a second. The Muslims have the hajj to Mecca. The Jews are about to uncover a hajj in Jerusalem that predates us by 600 years. What are we going to tell all the kids that we've been educating that Islam predates Judaism? And so they threatened the workers. They forced them to leave.

They torched the cars of two of the Arab superintendents that were working for us. They threatened their lives. 85 of 100 Arab workers left it that day. Later on, they committed an attack. They tried assassinating a member of the city of David. Thank God he survived. A series of violent attacks, anything to stop the discoveries in the city of David from taking place.

And it's sad to say alone, they weren't successful. We had to find new workers that set us back. They were not alone. But the city of David is not alone either. Talk to me about the destruction of Jewish antiquities outside the city of David, specifically in Judea and Samaria, and the way the Palestinian Authority has been trying to erase Jewish history. There's a basic rule. If Israel is not strong, protecting antiquities alone, they will be erased.

They'll be erased because they're a blight. One side wants to dig. Israel wants to dig everywhere we can. And one side doesn't want you to dig anywhere you can because they realize that every time you unveil a stone, it destroys history. So for instance, in Gaza, Gaza, ironically, the most beautiful place in Gaza was the Gaza Jewish synagogue in Gaza City. It's part of the structure still there. Entire mosaic floor was in there.

Completely rampaged and torn apart. Jericho, beautiful palaces in Jericho going back to Herod and before destroyed. An altar on Har Grizim. This is the altar that Joshua sacrificed when he came into Israel. Complete military closed zone because of threats to try to destroy it. And it all comes back. What we see in the city of David is a microcosm for what's happening. And I'll tell you, it takes another layer. And I go into this in the book.

You have the Muslim Authority that wants to shut this down, but they're not the only ones. You have politicians from the U.S. who try to shut this down. We were personally attacked by the State Department. I had the State Department come and meet with me after the Pilgrimage Road fiasco. So local Arab residents were encouraged to take the city of David to court. They eventually lost that court case.

While the Supreme Court was considering the position, I had a meeting with the State Department. They came and sat with me. They came into my office and they say, we heard the pilgrimage road that you're digging is destroying a UNRWA school. Now we all know the word UNRWA. I say, an UNRWA school? They say, yeah, there was an UNRWA school. The floor caved in because of your road. I said, oh, I know where that UNRWA school is. I opened up a map.

The UNRU school is 400 meters from the Pilgrim's Road. I said, what are you talking about? There's no connection between the UNRU school and the road. They said, well, what are your intentions really with this road? Are you going to be going into the Al-Aqsa Mosque? And I realized the State Department was coming to me, and all this is recorded in WikiLeaks. I have the statements in WikiLeaks in the book. What did they do? They made a premise that the Pilgrim's Road was going to ignite a war.

It needs to be stopped. They interviewed Ra'id Salah, that crazy Northern Islamic Brotherhood, and they bring the fig leaf, who's their own spillman, to try to appease it. And eventually they issued a report to Condoleezza Rice to intervene to influence Israel in the State Department. The only reason this didn't go through is because it was intercepted by Deputy Secretary of State Elliot Abrams, who asked for an additional opinion

They sent an additional opinion to Michael Oren, Israel's U.S. ambassador. We wrote a different opinion explaining the Unra school is nowhere near this road. The whole premise is wrong. And therefore it was derailed. The United States government was going to weigh in on this. Why? Because the city of David is located in East Jerusalem alone.

And the division, that whole idea, divide Jerusalem, divide Jerusalem, all of our antiquities, all of our sites, everything, including the old city, are in East Jerusalem. And if the city of David is proven to be the Lexington and Concord, the foundation of the Jewish people— Lexington and Concord. I mean, that's so recent. It's such a bad example. What would be the British example?

This is our Roman forum. Okay. This is our Roman forum. This is our Acropolis. And can you imagine if it's there? Would Rome give away the Acropolis to make peace? So this is why the United States, for a series of administrations... Well, the Romans would give away the forum the Acropolis is in. It is in Greece. It is in Greece. But no one would give away the epicenter of their belonging. And so the city of David derails many of those efforts...

And so it becomes controversial not only because it's a question over who was here first, antiquities, but also literally the question of how can Israel possibly cede control over the cradle of Jewish civilization? And the city of David has come under attack not only from

from Palestinians and Arabs who want to erase Jewish history and perhaps supported by Arabists within the State Department. And I want to get your take a little bit more on some of the other international actors, but also from other activist groups. So, I mean, let me put to you the criticism that is leveled at the City of David Foundation from Peace Now, for example, one of the major Israeli left-wing NGOs, which calls the City of David Foundation a settler organization.

says it is concerned not primarily with archaeology. That's a fig leaf. That is just a cover for what is an attempt to take over Palestinian land, taking advantage of their hardship and poverty to take over land and houses within Silwan, the Arab...

village that is part of East Jerusalem, manipulating them, feigning ignorance about forgeries and other misproprieties in the documentation in order to take over Arab land in East Jerusalem and using the archaeology as a fig leaf for a right-wing radical settler takeover of Arab land in East Jerusalem. You are guilty as charged, are you not? The basis that a Jew...

who buys a home in the city of David and wants to live there is an illegal settler is like saying an American that buys a home in Washington, D.C. is an illegal settler. There is every law in Israel preserves the right of every individual citizen to buy a home wherever they want. Every time a Jew buys a home in the city of David, flags go up, settler, settler, settler. There is not a more racist policy

in that can be imagined a more biased and racist policy than saying a Jew cannot buy land in the city of David. And what the piece now I will just say in the court case,

that came against the city of David, you constantly hear the voice of peace now. Why? Peace now is really not about peace. Peace now is about a one state, an Arab state solution over all of Israel. Don't they want two states? They don't want two states. At the end of the day, because where's the border of two states for them? There is the same logic. They would say along the 1967 lines. But the same, you know, I'll give you an example. With the archaeological destruction that took place at the Temple Mount, where was peace now?

Nowhere. Silent completely. Worst piece now, though, is the October 7th acts. If you're really...

For a strong Israel, an Israel that has peaceful relations with the neighbors, you don't take one-sided views of framing every Israeli in Jerusalem, Israel's capital, as settlers. Well, they take the perspective that the way to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is through two states, through a division of the land along the 1967 lines as the basis, which means a Palestinian state is...

in the territory that Israel conquered from the Jordanian occupation in 1967 with East Jerusalem, including these sites being part of the Palestinian capital city. That is their position on how this conflict should be solved. I will tell you where Peace Now, fascinating, actually presented their views incorrectly and tried to accuse the city of David. The Obama administration, 2013.

I would assume that most people would believe that if a Jew goes to an Arab or an Arab comes to a Jew and says, I want to sell my home. An Arab wants to sell his home to a Jew. A Jew says, I want to buy it. And then a third party comes and hears this and says to the Arab, if you sell your home to that Jew, I will kill you.

That's called a fatwa, right? This is a death threat against selling a home to Jews. By any means anywhere in the world, that would be racist. You go to that third party. How can you threaten an Arab from selling a home to a Jew? That is Hamas policy. Despite this, there were 25 Arab families as of land values began going up in 2013 that marketed their homes. Jews bought their homes.

Arabs received a large sum of money like in everywhere else. They built large homes, other areas in Jerusalem and Jews move in. I get a call in October 2013 from Ron Dermer. These Jews had just left. Ron called me at the time he was the ambassador to the United States and Bibi was in D.C. Now he's the minister of strategic affairs. Exactly. And he's maybe the point person for the hostage negotiations, right? As this goes on.

So Ron says to me... The ransom talks. The ransom talks. He says, Daron, is it true that a bunch of Jews moved into homes and Arabs sold? I said, yeah, it's absolutely true. He said, is everything kosher? Completely kosher. These are land deals. It's all been approved. Lawyers. He said, I want you to know, tomorrow you're going to be condemned. I said, by who? He said, by the Obama administration. I said, for what? He says, they're going to condemn you tomorrow officially. To death. For throwing Palestinians out of their homes...

moving in Jewish settlers and they're going to condemn the excavations. He said, I'm working right now with them to try to get the, to try to mollify this as much as possible. We're not going to manage. Tomorrow you're going to be condemned. I said, what should we do? I said, this is ridiculous. I said, when we bought, homes were purchased. He said, they received the report. I now, I now know that that report was issued by Sholem Aksha, by Peace Now.

claiming that we're throwing Palestinians out of their homes, meaning peace now, see, we bought homes. And what's the narrative? Jews throw Palestinians out of their home, meaning the same Palestinians have now built beautiful homes. He said, myself and the prime minister are going to defend you. The next day, Josh Ernst, Obama's White House press secretary, condemned the city of David, said we threw Palestinians out of their homes and demanded an immediate cessation of the excavations in the city of David.

the prime minister of Israel, and Ron Dermer stood up, and Bibi's words are very simple. He went to Face the Nation, a very big news story. He said, I will never say that a Jew cannot buy land in the state of Israel, just like I will not say that an Arab can buy land in the state of Israel. It's very, very simple. But the framing of Peace Now, these other groups constantly try to undercut the city of David by hiding it

underneath their claims of settler. Why? Because they know the same thing that we just said. If peace now, let's just say, that they're for dividing Jerusalem along 67 lines, what's the problem? No. The 67 line divides Jerusalem into East Jerusalem and West Jerusalem.

which means that deal would be severing the city of David and the old city from Israel. That is what that plan is. And if you have the city of David... Yeah, they don't want the city of David to be part of Israel. They want it to be part of Palestine. And we know what would happen, right? Within three days, it would be destroyed like the Temple Mount. You give it three days? I think that's optimistic. Okay. It would be ransacked. And so this is why peace now...

allied with the State Department, allied with the Obama administration, came down to survive during this time. We had incredible friends that stood by us. The Prime Minister, Ron Dermer, supporters throughout the world, and Alan Dershowitz. Elie Wiesel was the chairman of our board. People that saw this happening, it was a very quiet war.

But the people that stood this happening gave us the ability to survive. This is the story that was never told. I was interviewed on 60 Minutes by Leslie Stahl. She took the story completely in the direction that we're talking about now. And I realized, this is why I wrote the book,

The story's not being told. At the end of the day, Leslie Stahl has a stage that I don't have. She presented, she didn't say a word. I don't know. You're a guest on my podcast. She's not. That's true. And I would rather be here than be with her any day. It's good to have you here. It's good to be here. But the campaign against us for years is really the campaign to delegitimize Jewish history, to delegitimize Israel, and enables people to flood over a border on October 7th

Because they feel like the people who are here, the Israelis, have zero connection to the land. You erase history, ultimately that means you're going to erase the people. That's the process. We've seen it before. It's happening again.

Have you led diplomats and leaders around the city of David? Many, yes. How do they react when they come with a particular narrative, when they arrive with this hostility towards the idea of excavations uncovering Jewish antiquities, and you present this case to them, that Israel's existence is rooted in our ancient connection to the land?

How do they react? Do you see opinions changing? Do you see hostility? I mean, I'm sure you have all sorts of funny stories and anecdotes. I will tell you, the quartet was a group of countries that came together. Is the quartet still a thing? No, it's not around anymore. It was the U.S. The U.S., I think England, France. The U.K., France, and the U.N. Maybe the U.N. or E.U. Maybe it was the E.U. They came on a private tour that I guided.

I never remember who was Tony Blair. It wasn't Tony Blair wasn't there. It was their workers. And it was off the record. And they said they wanted to see it. I was I respected it. They said, we want to see it from your side. Now, when I get asked political questions, I have one answer. First, we take the tour. Then I sit down and I'll answer every question you have. Let's first hear the tour.

I gave the tour. I showed them the seals that Eilat Mazar had found from the Bible. I opened up the Bible and showed them the passages in the Bible. We saw it was just the beginning of the pilgrimage road. We walked up part of the pilgrimage road. We popped out in a tunnel near the Western Wall. They forgot about their questions. At the very end, I took them back outside where we had like an aerial view of the city of David. And they had intimated to me after this meeting they were going to meeting with in the prime minister's office with the prime minister. And they said,

what do you think about Israel giving this away? What do you, like, I could tell that they, what they were really saying was how the hell could Israel give this away? I said to them, you know, I'm not going to answer that question, but when you meet with the prime minister, I want you to tell them the way you feel. It's, I've seen so many people torn at their hearts when they experienced the city of David and then they pop back out to the open air and they're

back to the whole settler ideology and the whole narrative and how it tears them. And I've seen this happen numerous times. Leslie Stahl from 60 Minutes. It's a great example. Leslie came. She brought her husband with her on the photo shoot. She said to me, Daron, this is the first time in my entire reporter's history I brought my husband anywhere. He said he wants to come here. I gave her and her husband a private tour before. He was crying. She was completely blown away. The minute the camera turned on,

She became a monster whose goal was very simple, to try to undercut any historical authenticity of the city of David by not mentioning anything we did find, only mentioning what we haven't yet found. Nothing's perfect. Asking me similar questions about digging underneath homes and then taking an Arab resident from the city and spoon feeding him. Get a load of this. In the middle of the interview, she stops the cameras. Someone, it was all set up, runs and whispers something in her ear.

She said, "Daron, I just got a report from the Israel Antiquities Authority. They say that you're intervening in the excavations and fabricating history." I said, "The Israel Antiquities Authority is digging here.

Leslie, who from the Israel Antiquities Authority said this? So she cuts the camera. She goes, come back over here. She said, a director of the Israel Antiquities Authority. I said, but I know all the directors of the Israel Antiquities Authority. Who is saying this? They can say it to my face. In the end, that piece was cut out of this. But it just shows you the depths that they're willing to go to try to reframe this. I will say.

that the tide has turned. The current Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth, along with almost the entire cabinet, including Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State, not only have they been to the City of David, the current administration, they find their value system. I'm online. I took... Pete Hegseth is all online. There's a 10-minute interview. They understand and they've said years ago that they understand that the Palestinian rewriting of history doesn't just affect Israel and the Jews. It affects America.

That's the very foundation of Western society. And so now you see a tie. Why? Because if you look at the values, the Puritan values that America was built upon, including the Western values of liberty, of individual rights, of equality, where do those come from? I'm sorry to say they don't come from Islam. Jerusalem and Athens. They come from Jerusalem and Athens. Exactly. And Jerusalem predates Athens by more than a thousand years. Athens also had an element of this ideology. It's a discussion for another time.

But when in the beginning of the very Jewish text, when God says created man, mankind in his image, this was groundbreaking because you can have slaves. But at the end of the day, you can remember who you are. This was the very foundation. Jeremiah and Isaiah. The attempt to erase Jewish history is therefore an attempt to basically make history start in the seventh century and ignore the civilization that gave rise to the modern Western mind.

Exactly. And we know where that leads. When did you first start becoming interested in archaeology? Because I've always been fascinated by it. I mean, a little bit of personal sharing. As a kid, my favorite subject at school was Latin. I was fascinated by the ancient world. I came to Israel. I took part in the...

for the Jerusalem Temple Mount sifting project. I remember when I was a kid, there was some archaeological crank who claimed that on a particular date he would reveal he discovered where the Ark of the Covenant was hiding. Indiana Jones was my favorite movie. And I remember at the time, this is how old I am,

This was before we had smartphones. But I was on holiday in Israel and there was an internet cafe. And I went to the internet cafe on the day that he promised that he would find the Ark of the Covenant and I never found it. Maybe he didn't. We just, you know, we don't know. Maybe he didn't. Maybe it's in his warehouse. I got duped into going to the internet cafe. But I've always been personally fascinated by archaeology, the ancient world. I find it exciting. When...

when did that bug bite you? So you were learning Latin? Yeah. Seven years of Latin. Seven years of Latin. And my wife learned Latin as well. Good British education. So bring Mrs. Spielman. We'll have a conversation. She can actually speak on your level. For me, it's very, very simple. We'll do an episode of the podcast in Latin. She's better than I am. For me,

Like you said, it was Indiana Jones. It was the adventure. It was the discovery of Israel and was coming to Israel. My second trip to Israel was to that was 1994, a long time ago. And I don't know why my tour guide took us down a dirt hill to show us a water source outside the old city wall. There was no city of David major excavation. He took us there.

I was in my sophomore year of college. I looked at the water and he explained, he says, this water source, we know that above us is the ancient city of David. Now, I didn't exactly understand what that meant.

But that mind and in front of the water source, if you go there, it doesn't lead into the valley. It leads into a cave through the mountain. I said, can we walk through that? He said, you can, but we need a candle or a flashlight. We didn't bring them. I said, where does it go? He said, probably to a pool that hasn't been excavated on the other side. That memory stood with me throughout my college education, my law school. If anyone, if an angel would have tapped me on the shoulder,

And said, instead of being a lawyer and a business person, you're one day going to work for the city of David for two decades. I would have laughed him off my shoulder. Really? I just couldn't believe it. It's your life's work. It is my life's work. And I had that experience, the Indiana Jones experience. I'll share one story, if I may, which was I think the pinnacle and explains a lot about what we're talking about.

We uncovered this pilgrimage road that goes to the Temple Mount. The Supreme Court tried to stop us, as we mentioned. Muslim Brotherhood stopped our workers. And so for two years, the pilgrimage road was frozen. However, underneath the pilgrimage road, there is a channel that goes underneath that was a water channel. I think you saw part of it on your tour. I asked them to take you there. That water channel is much easier to dig. Imagine a road, but you have a sewer underneath it. So we were digging this water channel while the road was being protested and everything else.

Until one day, a worker at the end swinging his pickaxe and it goes through into open air. An entire wall falls down. Next morning, five of us get together and a filmmaker and we crawl through a tunnel that's only two feet high, slithering on our stomachs from the City of David underneath the Old City wall.

into the old city, into a round room, which today tourists can see. That's as far as we could go. The rest of it was blocked. In the round room, there was sunlight coming in from the top, glaring through. We were with Eli Shukrin, the archaeologist, and I said, Eli, do you know where we are? He's like, we're somewhere near the Temple Mount. I don't know, and the rest of the tunnel's blocked. This is early in the morning, 8.30 a.m. A tour guide is leading an English-speaking group above us, and he says to the group, here we are,

underneath Robinson's Arch, the original entrance to the Temple Mount. Here we are, a handful of people underneath the ground, having crawled through the tunnel for the first time in 2,000 years, realize that this tunnel, which is underneath the pilgrimage road, goes all the way underneath the ground to Robinson's Arch. Stories like this in the City of David come alive. Now, here's the question. When you come out, can you announce the questions? You ask the questions. When you come out, can we ask one? Okay. Can we announce this to the world when we come out?

What would happen if the world knew that we crawled underneath the ground near Robinson's Arch? What would the Muslim world say? Probably the beginning of a world war. Exactly. Yeah. And we came out alone. And there's an entire episode in the book that explains how we incredibly carefully with the prime minister, with Ron Dermer, with the mayor of Jerusalem, with Fox News.

created this into something that would not explode into World War III, because that's how delicate the city of David and Jerusalem is. That's how explosive it is. Doron, what's the most amazing archaeological discovery you've physically held? There's been a few, but I will tell you. We were digging this channel I was talking to you about now after we came through and found this, so more excavations were carried out.

One day I'm sitting in office in a meeting. We were discussing a robot. How do you have a robot that will introduce people to the city of David? You know, it's a gimmick. It's a little shtick as we call it in Hebrew. I'm in my office. The door flies open. In walks Elie Shukrin, the excavator. He's covered with dust. Spends most of his time underneath the ground where he prefers to be. And he clears her papers off the table. I'm looking what's going on here. And he puts a little bag on the table, plastic baggie. I see mud inside the bag.

So he says, you guys know what this is? I'm looking at it. I can't really see. It's a little bit of yellow. So he opens up the bag. He takes out this piece of mud. He said, Spielman. That's how he calls me. He put this piece of mud in my hand. He said, can you tell what this is? I'm flaking off the mud very carefully. I see gold. I said, is that gold? He said, yes. He said, shake it. I put it next to my ear and I shake it and I hear the clanging of a bell.

I said, "Eli, this is a bell? Who finds a bell?" He's like, "We've never found a bell in the City of David." As a matter of fact, he said, "I can tell that this is pure gold, and this is a pure gold bell." He said, "Look at it again. On the edge, I could see there was a little clasp where it would have been sewn onto clothing." I said, "Okay, Eli, what is this?" He said, "Where do you find a golden bell

No. Yes. No. No.

Even the Israel Antichrist Authority, which bends over backwards to try to deny and try to downplay, not deny, to downplay, said it cannot be that it isn't. It's the only golden belt ever found in Israel, pure 24 karat gold in the shape of a pomegranate found through a drain. What must have happened, we assume, is the high priest of Jerusalem, the Konag Adol, probably near the destruction and was either running away and the hem of his robe got caught on a sewer grate.

The pomegranate bell fell down. It's in the book of Exodus. It landed in the mud below and got lost until an excavator whose name was Nisim

found this bell, handed it to Elie Shukrun, and brought it to our office. Today, it's maybe the most prized possession we've ever found. That's incredible. Doron, did I ever tell you the story about the antiquity that I found? Am I going to have to have you arrested? Did you take it home? No. Okay, so it's a funny story. Two years ago, I went on a hike of Tel Lachish with a friend.

the site of the ancient biblical city of Lachish. There is still evidence of the Assyrian ramparts from the Assyrian attempt to conquer the city two and a half thousand years ago. Really an extraordinary, extraordinary, extraordinary site. And as I was walking around, I go around, I pick up stones off the floor, have a look, and suddenly I flip over a stone and I'm dumbfounded. There's writing on it. It's a piece of pottery and there is writing on it. Really? Yeah.

Yes. It said A. Longlevy. No, it didn't. I had no idea what it said because it looked like it was in paleo Hebrew, the original alphabet before we had the modern Hebrew alphabet. But it was very difficult to read. I turned to my friend. I said, I think I've just found a piece of ancient pottery. So we took it, wrapped it in something and said, OK, after Shabbat, we'll call the Israel Antiquities Authority to report it.

And I got in touch with an archaeologist at the Israel Antiquities Authority who came all the way to the president's office where I was working at the time to see this piece of pottery. He looks at it and says, huh, interesting, very interesting. I said, what is it? He said, I'm going to take it for some lab tests. Calls me back a few weeks later and says, Elon, you won't believe it. It's a piece of ancient pottery that says on it,

in the year 24 of Darius. Darius, the ancient Persian emperor, who was the father of Ahasuerus, which means he was Queen Esther's father-in-law.

He said this is the earliest record we have in Aramaic of the Persian period of rule in the land of Israel. It was called then Yehud, the province of Yehud. This is a major archaeological discovery. We're writing a paper on it and we're going to publicize it in time for Purim. So this became the Israel Antiquity Authority's big story for Purim.

I was incredibly excited. We went with a camera crew and a photographer and Channel 12 filmed a report about how we discovered it. And I held it up to the camera and I said, we found it right here at the tourist site. And I was sure that someone was pranking me because it just felt too good to be true. Anyway, it was too good to be true. Oh, no. Because after the headlines about the incredible chance discovery made by an advisor to Israel's president, Intel Lachish,

It turned out that it was fake. It turned out that a European archaeologist had taken a group of her students to the site, picked up a piece of pottery off the ground, sketched

in the year 24 of Darius on it in violation of all archaeological ethical rules and chucked it back on the ground. That was why I found it right under the pergola for the visitor center because that's where she had gone with her students. The reason that the archaeologists thought that this had to be authentic was they said, look,

There's always a chance it's a forgery, but there are maybe three people in the world who could forge something with such a level of authenticity. What reason would they possibly have to forge it and throw it in the field? And it turned out that this archaeologist, acting in total violation of the ethical rules, had scratched...

inscription onto a pottery shard, thrown it on the ground where they managed to fool the Israel Antiquities Authority, leading to some very embarrassing headlines where they had to retract it. And it turned out I hadn't made the archaeological discovery of the century. But I was sure that that interview was in fact my biggest news moment, my biggest media moment of 2023. And this was only...

months before the war started. I guess, Elon, first of all, you just incriminated yourself for false information in front of millions of people here. No, I didn't, because I did... I would have blackmailed you with this, but you just announced it to the world. I did what any responsible citizen should do, which is instead of taking it and keeping it at home, I reported it to the Israel Antiquities Authority. I did exactly what my civic duty did. Just shows the good guy doesn't always win, Elon. Anyway, the...

When Channel 12 then did a report, the original report was binned because there was some other news crisis going on that day. And then they did a news report about how it turned out that it was fake. They showed me saying, holding it up and saying...

I looked left and right to see whether anyone was pranking me. It was too good to be true. And then the narrator and like inject this into my vein says, little did Elon know how right he was. Anyway, Doron Spillman, author of when the stone speak, the remarkable discovery of the city of David and what Israel's enemies don't want you to know. Where can people find this book? Uh,

What do you recommend them to do with it and to discover when they come to Jerusalem? First of all, anyone who is interested in understanding the battle over the indigenous Jewish history. There's not a day that goes by in the UN, college campuses, walking through the streets that the connection to the Jewish people is unchallenged. This is not just a book of facts. The whole book is based on facts.

It is the compelling story of the return of the Jewish people. Anyone who's interested in understanding where Jewish history is, this is the book I believe that you should have. You can buy it on Amazon, Barnes & Noble. It's available on Kindle. If you want to get the audible version, it's my voice that's narrating it on the audible version.

This is a book for you, for your kids, anyone in college that is facing this today. This is the book where you walk away and you say, you know what? There may be a lot of indigenous people in the world, and there are, but there's probably no one that is more indigenous to any land in the entire world than the Jewish people are to Israel. Doron Spillin, great to have you back on the show. Thank you very much, Elon.

And that brings us to the end of today's episode of State of a Nation with Doron Spillman. As always, if you enjoy these episodes, please give us a like on whatever social media platform you're following on. Subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or YouTube and join us for more conversations that take us beyond the headlines and between the lines. I'm Elon Levy and thanks for joining us.