Ep. 163: Unpacking Trump's First Days & the Hostage Deal w/ Ruthie Blum
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Last week he's threatening and this week he's taking credit. Interestingly, Biden got irritated with him as though both of them want credit for, I wouldn't want to be taking credit for this disgusting deal, which is capitulation to a terrorist organization. Hello and welcome to Think Twice.

This week, we have a special Trump 2.0 post-inauguration podcast for you with my friend and colleague Ruthie Bloom.

But before we start today's program, I want to remind you, as always, to like this video and podcast, subscribe to JNS, and click on the bell for notifications. Also, you still don't have to wait a full week for more of our content. There is a Jonathan Tobin Daily Podcast where I share more news and analysis with you about the most significant issues we're facing today.

You can find The Daily Show under Jonathan Tobin Daily on the JNS Channel, wherever you get your podcasts. And now to today's program. As President Barack Obama used to like to say when he was in power, elections have consequences. And as President Donald Trump hits the ground running in his second term, that's exactly what his supporters are counting on.

The new administration began with a bang, with a slew of executive orders, all aimed at transforming Washington and reversing the woke leftist grip on the federal government to reform the federal bureaucracy that has taken on the power of a fourth unelected branch and halting the flood of illegal immigrants into the United States and seeking to end the weaponization of justice by his predecessor's administration.

But even before he took office, he effectively supplanted President Joe Biden by helping to negotiate a ceasefire hostage release deal between Israel and Hamas. While I think it's always wise to lower one's expectations about any new president, both in terms of your hopes and your fears,

There's no question that Trump 2.0 has the potential to be a deeply consequential presidency that does have the potential to change the course of history and change the United States for the better.

But what traps and challenges await his administration? And what does this mean for an Israel that is still locked in a seven-front war against Iran and its Islamist terrorist proxies, as well as for American Jews who have experienced an unprecedented surge in anti-Semitism since the October 7, 2023 attacks on Israel in which the political left is implicated? Here to discuss all this with me is one of my favorite colleagues and favorite people,

JNS' own, the great Ruthie Bloom. Ruthie Bloom is a former advisor at the office of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and an award-winning columnist and a senior contributing editor at JNS. She is the co-host, with Mark Regev, of the JNS TV podcast, Israel Undiplomatic. In her columns, she writes about Israeli politics and U.S.-Israel relations. She's also the author of To Hell in a Handbasket, Carter, Obama, and the Arab Spring.

Ruthie Bloom, welcome back to Think Twice. Well, thanks, Jonathan. I'm always glad to join you. Ruthie, great to see you. And thanks so much for joining me today for our special post-inaugural podcast.

I want to start by asking you first about the ceasefire hostage release deal that President Trump, the new president, the old and new President Trump, helped broker even before he took office. Both of us have already written and spoken about this deal, and we've both been very concerned about the price that Israel is forced to pay for only some of the hostages and the way this strengthens Hamas and Iran.

After the symbolism of seeing hostage families and a released hostage at the inauguration celebrations and seeing some of Trump's initial moves, are you feeling any better about it? Or is the inherent contradiction between his support for eradicating Hamas and a deal that pretty much ensures that they will be left to rule Gaza still too great to think of this as anything but an exorbitant ransom payment?

Well, I would say the latter. Actually, I've decided that the only thing that I can do, since I'm really in despair over this deal, is to wait to see what happens when Hamas violates it and what will constitute a violation and how Israel responds.

how Israel responds in relation to what the Trump administration says. Now, the good news is that despite Steve Witkoff, who went there, you know, read Netanyahu, the riot act, as far as I'm, as far as I've read and heard, uh,

However, let's be honest, Netanyahu wanted to sign such a deal a while ago. It was Hamas that kept refusing. And Biden has admitted that, and all of Biden's people admitted that, that Hamas kept scuttling the deal.

So when Trump said all hell will break loose in the Middle East if the hostages aren't returned by the time I'm inaugurated, apparently Hamas then agreed to sign this deal, which is very favorable to Hamas, by the way.

So what I'm hoping for is that the one thing that Trump will not do is prevent Israel from finishing the job when it's necessary to go in, defeat Hamas, continue the war, not exit, not remove all troops from Gaza, etc. Yeah, well, that's the key thing because...

You know, there isn't really much confidence that phases two and three, when most of the hostages will presumably be released, will actually happen.

And even if it does, you know, what's the best possible scenario is that the hostages are released, but then Hamas does take control of Gaza. All the assumptions that I've heard from supporters of the agreement or those who rationalize it is that, well, there'll be something other than Hamas and Gaza.

Isn't that really just magical thinking? How can there be something other than Hamas in Gaza? Hamas remains popular. In fact, its popularity is obviously boosted by, you know, 4%.

Forcing Israel in the eyes of the Palestinians to free all these terrorists with blood on their hands and allowing them to remain in place in Gaza. How does anything else happen but, you know, sort of the best case scenario, we're back to October 6th, 2023 or some form of it?

Absolutely. Listen, I don't know who can control Gaza after the war. Obviously, I believe that only Israel can do it. Israel needs to have military control over Gaza. And personally, I don't see what's wrong with also having Jews resettle part of Gaza. I don't see why any part of this world should be rid of Jews. That's number one. Number two, it's possible that...

Israel will not have the guts to say we're taking military control of Gaza or it will have temporary control as we are seeing in southern Lebanon. What we know is that the Palestinian Authority is no different from Hamas and anybody who has some kind of fantasy that PA President Mahmoud Abbas

could be responsible for Gaza is kidding himself. First of all, they're terrorists also. Second of all, most of the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria, or what other people call the West Bank, are pro-Hamas. Hamas would win an election hands down there right now.

Third, we also know that a lot of the terrorism committed in Israel from Palestinians in Judea and Samaria, Hamas takes credit for that. So there is no point in imagining that there's a day after Hamas unless it is actually eradicated and somebody else takes control. Now, if

For example, the Gulf states want to participate in taking control. That's a possibility. I don't know. Do you really think that? They're going to send in people to get killed by Hamas? No, no way. But the whole point of this stupid deal was that the second phase required Hamas to demilitarize it, demilitarize Gaza and put down its weapons. Now,

What are the odds of that happening? Zero. So we know then we're not going to get to the second phase. The worry always is, you see,

that we will capitulate or Washington will force us to capitulate or we said we'll do this, but then there's a gray area. I'll give you an example of a gray area. What happens in the coming weeks? Okay, there's no rockets fired from Gaza or no, let's suppose a rocket is fired from Gaza, but Hamas says, no, that wasn't us. That was Islamic Jihad that fired it.

Then what? And we say yes, but you're responsible for Gaza. Are we really going to back out of the deal when every Israeli is sitting with bated breath waiting for other hostages to be released? Do you think anybody's going to allow the IDF, anybody, I mean any Israeli, any American, name it, to then take that as an opportunity to consider it a violation? Highly doubtful. So, you know, I'm very, very skeptical. However,

The incoming Trump administration, if you remove Witkoff from this list and you look at Marco Rubio, who was just confirmed as Secretary of State, look at Pete Hegseth, Secretary of Defense, and Mike Waltz, National Security Advisor, they have been very, very clear that whatever Israel needs to do, Israel will receive U.S. backing to do it. That gives me a ray of hope here. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, well, I think that's on one hand, I think that's very true. I mean, the Israeli dynamic though is different because as we've seen the overwhelming joy, and I think all decent people should feel joy at seeing people, these young women who were freed in the first day of the ceasefire, and hopefully there will be more.

That dynamic really works against Netanyahu or any Israeli leader doing anything to stop the flow of hostages to freedom. And isn't the dynamic that once you start down this road, you're really willing to pay any price? Well, let's hope not.

that this government, the Netanyahu government, such as it is at the moment, it's a little shaky, of course, not that it hasn't been all along since October 7th because of the atrocities that occurred on Netanyahu's watch.

However, he has been fighting this war with great strength and, I have to say, standing up to so many different kinds of pressures at home, abroad, from every which way. So he actually has been leading it properly. Therefore, I have to believe that just ending the war totally without having achieved its goals is not on his agenda.

and hopefully not on the rest of the government's agenda. Hopefully. Again, you know, we've seen so many negative things happen. But on the other hand, don't forget, every time we got despondent,

The Netanyahu government proved us wrong and the beeper explosions, that was a great example. That was a fun example. But there were many others. We didn't believe he was going to go into Rafah. Before that, even in the very beginning of the war, it's why isn't he launching the ground invasion? Why isn't he doing this? Why isn't he doing that? And each phase...

We were doubting it, and then we saw that there was a grand plan, and he was going after it, and he was following it. So let's pray that that applies here too. Yeah, I think that's, you know, you're very right. He's stuck to his positions in the end, gotten what he wanted, you know, did what he think needed to be done, even when it didn't look like that was going to happen.

The question is whether the dynamic has changed once, you know, you've signed this deal and it's you're getting some hostages out, whether and, you know, I think a lot of us are hoping that there are things that we don't know that are in the works as, you know, in the past, as you, you know, you noted the tax on Lebanon, which.

certainly was, you know, we didn't see it coming. But I think, you know, the assumption that there's always another rabbit to come out of, you know, to come out of the hat, that can also lead to magical thinking. But let's get back to Trump for a minute. I think the assumption, even among people who don't like Trump,

both in the U.S. and even in Israel, is that he is returning to the same pro-Israel policies he pursued in the first term. And that's certainly backed up, as you noted, by the cast of very pro-Israel appointees to key foreign policy and security posts, and even his defunding of UNRWA on his first day in office. But the assumption, you know, of one of Trump's strengths, as well as his weaknesses, is his love for grand gestures and big deals. That gave us the Abraham Accords.

But it's also possible, at least I think, that too much interest in wooing Saudi Arabia will not necessarily be in Israel's interest. And there's also the question of whether Trump's justified abhorrence of foreign military adventures could mean that he will be unenthusiastic about doing something about Iran. Or at least I'm sure that's what Tucker Carlson is hoping. What do you think about those two points? I know. That's exactly what worries me about Trump.

2.0. There's no question that Trump 1.0 was totally pro-Israel. Every gesture he made, every policy he implemented in relation to Israel was fantastic.

So no complaints there, including the Abraham Accords. Here he seems to be jumping the gun, unfortunately, which is to say expanding the Abraham Accords. When we're in the middle of a vicious war, that's not the same as the Abraham Accords being signed when he and Israel were on the same page and the Gulf states were saying this is great and even Saudi Arabia was giving in.

tacit approval because it was understood that this was an anti-Iran axis.

In the meantime, since October 7th, the Gulf states have been watching very carefully and suddenly all the lip service to a Palestinian state has returned. And Saudi Arabia says, well, without a two-state solution, we won't blah, blah, blah. That is nonsense. First of all, they don't care about the Palestinians. As we know, they don't, they never did anything.

Any one of them say, oh, let's take in the Palestinians in Gaza, the women and children who are being bombed? No. Okay. And Egypt didn't either, right next door to Gaza. We know that. Well, nobody wants to take in Palestinian refugees. They're supposed to stay there where they are and suffer so as to highlight Israel's meanness. That's been the case since 1948, right?

Totally. So the question is then, okay, and why, you see, another thing is that Trump had delusions of grandeur here and they were, he's going to be another Reagan. Reagan was inaugurated, the hostages in Iran, the hostages who had been held for 444 days in the U.S. embassy in Iran were released that day. And that's true. But here, I'll tell you, it

It's not comparable. First of all, only three hostages were released. And what is this six-week period? We don't know who's alive or who's dead or who's holding them. And Hamas basically is holding the cards in its hands. Yeah, Witkoff didn't even get the Americans out. No. No.

Exactly. Which is amazing. Exactly. And again, all of this, you know, you and I have spoken about this. Obviously, knocking on an open door is easier than knocking on a closed one. So Israel always gets the pressure. But again, I will have to say I was disappointed in two things during Trump's inauguration speech, which I loved for many reasons.

I loved its anti-woke character. I loved many, many things about it. And I thought it was great that he mentioned Martin Luther King. It was Martin Luther King Day yesterday. But you know, all the woke people started turning on Martin Luther King a long time ago because they don't agree with the statement that you don't want to judge a person by the color of his skin, but rather by the content of his character.

No, no, that turned upside down. We want to judge people on the basis of the color of their skin and their gender and every other thing. So it was a really great speech, but here's what bothered me. Two things bothered me. One, oh, and one thing I would like to say, I'd like to praise...

somebody for making sure that that radical imam did not give a benediction. Yeah, just for those who didn't know, there was among the clergy that were supposed to appear and give benedictions at the inauguration was

a Muslim imam. But as it turned out, once anybody did a little research on him, he was actually a Hezbollah supporter. And then, as you were about to say, almost without any fanfare, he disappeared from the program because the message got through to the Trump people, which was a good thing.

Very good. But I didn't like the rabbi's benediction, and I'll tell you why. Neither did Al Jazeera. They stopped the coverage of the inauguration, their live coverage, when he was on. Oh, and Candace Owens apparently walked out.

So I know that anti-Semites hated it because he's a Jew and a rabbi. What I didn't like about it was that he was talking about college campuses and, you know, and now I can't remember the exact wording. It was very vague. Without mentioning anti-Semitism. And that's what's been going on in college campuses. Not any old violence and protests. I'm sorry. That is... Yeah, he asked him to help restore calm

Calm. Exactly. Which is not the answer. I was very annoyed by that. And the second thing I was annoyed by was when he mentioned the hostages, and we all want the hostages returned, but no mention of Hamas, no mention, there's this kind of vague, like, who's holding those hostages? What hostages? It's all kind of very, we got to bring them home. Again, not the enemy has to release them or else. So I was unhappy with that part of the speech.

And now I think the delusion I mentioned that I thought Trump was delusions of grandeur because this wasn't comparable to Reagan's inauguration in that sense that not all the hostages are released and we don't know when they will and how many will be in body bags. Another difference between this situation and Reagan's. And

You know, the other thing is that he sounded very different. Last week he's threatening and this week he's taking credit for

for something. Now, interestingly, Biden got irritated with him when someone asked Biden, Trump is taking credit, something like that, taking credit for this deal. And Biden said, are you joking? As though both of them want credit for, I wouldn't want to be taking credit for this disgusting deal, which is capitulation to a terrorist organization. So go ask

You guys, you're jumping to take credit for something that actually goes against American values and Israeli values and interests. Yeah, well, it certainly does. I'll respond to two points on that.

In terms of the deal and credit for it, I think the problem is that, as you noted before, Netanyahu agreed to these terms last year. Hamas turned it down. But Israel is in a stronger position now. And has Israel basically thrown away the gains

that it made and the sacrifices of all the soldiers of the IDF who were killed achieving those gains has basically been tossed away and that, you know, might as well have happened a year ago if this is the way it's going to go. And as far as Saudi Arabia, you know, I think you and I have both been skeptical as to whether Saudi Arabia ever will

really exchange ambassadors. I mean, they like the relationship with Israel the way it is now. It would be a great risk for Prince MBS, the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, for him to go that far at a time when there is such still hatred for Israel in the Arab world, in the Muslim world. I think there's a lot of assumptions going on about the Saudis, as well as the value of this hostage deal.

Oh, absolutely. I'll tell you, we won't know whether it all was for naught. You asked about the soldiers who were killed and everything. I don't think we're going to know yet. We've got to wait and see. All right. The jury's still out because it all depends on whether the IDF goes back into Gaza, et cetera, and finishes the job. It also depends on Lebanon. It depends on the whole region here. So I wouldn't jump...

to conclusions that it was all for naught. Also, even if Israel had been willing to end the war months and months and months ago, Hamas never agreed to return all the hostages. There was never a deal on the table, "Okay, end the war, get out of Gaza, leave us some power, and we'll give you all the hostages back." I would have opposed that too, but there was no such thing. They want to always retain some leverage.

Well, exactly. So the only question is, are they going to remain in power? And one of the reasons that we fear they might is that at the moment, they have recruited a whole bunch of new terrorists to replace the ones eliminated. And they did it through the earnings they made by stealing the humanitarian aid and selling it. And they have a lot of money there now to recruit new terrorists.

We also know, I have to say, I noticed how that no Gazan came forward to collect a $1 million or $5 million reward, the first being for any information leading to the release of a hostage, and the $5 million reward being for someone who actually brings back a hostage.

The fact that no Gazan came forward, that indicates that they are, aside from ideological and anti-Semitic and all that, but it shows they're afraid of Hamas still. They think that Hamas hasn't lost. I mean, they're voting with that, aren't they? Clearly, because otherwise you know there would be people coming forward to get a million dollars for information leading to a hostage. Come on. It's just, it's a no-brainer. So if they're not doing that,

They're afraid. They're afraid of Hamas. And if they're afraid of Hamas, they perceive Hamas as being in charge. And by the way, perception in the Middle East is 90% of the whole thing. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And getting back to Iran for just a moment, how confident are you that

Israel is going to take on Iran. And I think it's reasonable to think that Trump might support that, but the United States isn't going to take part in it. I don't think there's really much chance of that. And again, as with the hostage deal, the dynamic right now is that Trump wants to be the peacemaker. That's part of what he said both before and after the inauguration. And

Once you're on that track, eradicating the terrorists is secondary to the atmospherics and the optics of playing the peacemaker.

Well, yes, unless you revert to what you used to say or Trump. I don't know if he actually said it. I know it's a Netanyahu says it all the time. And I know that Trump's people have said it peace through strength, not through weakness or capitulation. So it's all well and good to talk about his being a peacemaker. And I'm all for that.

And, you know, I know that part of it is because his base, he's got, you know, some of his base being those isolationists and anti-war and they hate, they call everybody else warmongers. The trouble is when you are assaulted, when you're under assault, you can't not fight back and you can't not fight to win. So peace comes after that, not before it.

So here's the question. Israel doesn't want American help, I think, in attacking Iran. I think what it needs is American weapons and American backing in the sense of not tying its hands behind its back, saying, you go for it, guys, and we'll give you the bunker busters to do it. And we won't attack you for if you kill Ayatollahs, we won't accuse you of war crimes anymore.

That's what we're hoping for. Will Israel do it? I certainly hope so, and I hope Trump would be for it. And even his base, the base or anti-war base, we're not... They're not pro-Iran, for sure. No, they're not. And no American boots have to be on the ground in any of this.

Yeah, very true. Of course, it's going to depend on who's in the conversation and what they're saying. Obviously, I think if Steve Witkoff, it seems to be he likes to play, he's sort of repeating Biden and Obama's policies towards Israel and their stance. So we'll see whether it's if it's Mike Puckaby and Marco Rubio and Pete Hegseth, different, different story. So we're going to see how that works out.

Now, one executive order that among the many and the more, you know, that Trump signed on his first day back in office and one that got lost amid the more publicized one was Trump's revocations of sanctions on some Jews living in Judea and Samaria.

That's good for those Israelis who were targeted by Biden, but isn't it also important in terms of the symbolism of the new administration rejecting the false narrative about settler violence and the Palestinians as always victims rather than terrorists? Crucial. It's crucial. And this is one of the things that has been so good or was great about the first Trump administration is not just the policies, but the message.

And even then, the message was, okay, remove the word settlers or occupiers or something like that from State Department documents. That's a crucial message, the word occupation and the word settler. Everyone's a settler in Israel. I'm a settler. I live in Tel Aviv. I'm a settler. That language, it's perfect.

purposely derogatory and it's a propaganda tool of the left and the Arabs. It's not true. We're not settlers on our own land. That's their use of it and we don't occupy our own land, etc. It's very

It's very, very important that Trump did that for the symbolism even more than for the technical arrest warrants and that kind of thing. And other things, he's doing many great executive orders. Which we'll get to in a minute, sure. But I wanted to focus on that since that was very key to Biden's foreign policy and his approach to Israel. Reversing it, I think, and getting back to...

to the legitimization of the Jewish presence in Samaria. I think we could have an argument about whether it makes sense to put Jews back into Gaza. You seem to be in favor of it before I think that's,

That's probably not the best idea since, you know, the IDF is having enough trouble defending the communities on, you know, on one side of the green line. Certainly defending, you know, communities put back in there would take a major commitment of Israeli forces. The IDF probably doesn't want to do that. I don't think Netanyahu wants to do that. But the question about Jews living in,

in the rest of the country is a very important one. And, you know, it underlies the whole, you know, settler colonial state, which is the leftist critique of Israel.

Well, absolutely. But also don't forget, look, I agree with you that it's not likely to happen by the way that Jews are going to resettle Gaza. It's not likely. I would say it's a number that may not be zero, but it isn't much more than zero. No, I agree with you. But I'll tell you something. I, many, many years ago, two decades ago, in fact, I...

had an argument with my father about this engagement, about this engagement. And he was, you know, people were saying, well, you can't. I said, for example, why do you have to kick all the Jews out of there? So why don't you kick out the Gazans? They said, no, you know, that's not realistic. You know, that's not going to happen. No one's going to let it happen. Israel isn't going to. Nobody's going to. And I said, you know what? You're right.

But you have your unrealistic vision and I can have my unrealistic vision. OK, neither is a good vision. Neither is happening. But of course, we did pull every last Jew out of Gaza. We see where that led. That was my. Yeah. Well, you had the in retrospect, you had the better of that argument. But I think, you know, people like your father, the great Norman Podhoretz,

you know, they were relying on, you know, some assumptions about what Israel could and couldn't do and what the United States then under what we perceived as a sympathetic president, George W. Bush, what they would, what they would do in the years to come. And unfortunately, both those, those assumptions were wrong. So at any rate, well, we can't talk about Trump 2.0 without discussing the end of the Joe Biden presidency, which closed out

You know, with the flourish of him granting preemptive pardons to a number of public officials, also to his entire family because of their corrupt influencing influence peddling business for which they will obviously never be held accountable. Now, Biden also had a very consequential presidency in the Middle East.

And while he'll probably best be remembered for his mental decline in office, with respect to Israel, what was his impact? And what do you think most Israelis now think of him? And do they think of him still as more of a friend than a liability? No, I think only the Israeli left.

thinks of Biden as a friend and the rest, I would say, think of Biden as a liability. I have to say, you know, one thing that is clear, both in Israel and America, there are a lot of differences, but there are similarities.

And in both countries, when the left goes too far, I know in America you call it liberals and conservatives, and in Israel we call it left and right because our terms for liberal and conservative are different. But let's say the left, just, you know, you know what we're talking about here. When the left goes too far, the right grows more popular. And that is how the most right-wing government in Israel's history is ruling Israel right now.

and how Trump won again, despite it's how he won the first time. And I think he probably would have won again and the economy not tanked because of COVID. Well, if there hadn't been a pandemic, I think he would have. Right. Okay, so let's say, you know, that we can suppose. That's what I assume, and you do too. But in any case, we had Biden again, and there we go. They go too far. They continue.

take common, even common sense out of people. They go too far and then even people who are not what you would call right-wingers start to move away from them. And Israelis saw, first of all, most Israelis have had it with the left because they see that they're living in La La Land where Palestinian statehood is concerned or we're attacking Netanyahu, claiming Netanyahu

didn't want the hostages to be returned so he could keep his seat. Only a crazy person could think that. And yet that's all you read in the sort of leftist Israeli media, which is echoed in the mainstream media in the United States. Correct. So, you know, normal people, even those who don't like Netanyahu, think that's going a bit, that's a bit much.

That's much of an accusation. First of all, it's false because everybody knows that if Netanyahu doesn't rescue the hostages, he's toast. It's the other way around. He doesn't preserve his seat by hurting the hostages. I mean, what kind of idiocy is that?

But I mean, the left goes too far in everything they say. The Israeli left who thinks, oh, good, Biden, rescue us from ourselves, save us from ourselves. Only leftists talk like that. And most Israelis were thrilled when Donald Trump won that election. Thrilled. And I know that now some are saying, uh-oh, you know, he threatened. Me too, I was celebrating when he said,

You know, a new sheriff is in town and you'd better release those hostages or else. Unleashing all hell. But it turned out that...

The unleashing all hell was directed at Israel as well if Netanyahu didn't do what he wanted. Well, and sadly, I think that his comment today, I believe it was, or yesterday, whether he has confidence in the deal. And he said, no, I'm not so confident in it. It's their war and we don't, some very vague kind of weird word salad.

that could have meant, no, I'm not confident that Hamas will honor it, but it sounded like both sides kind of talk. Well, listen, I think, you know, and I address this in a column, my column on Inauguration Day, is that, you know, people really raise their expectations, both in terms of their hopes and their fears. And I think a lot of pro-Israel, you know, Americans and Israelis think

you know, got so caught up in the idea that, you know, Trump is the most pro-Israel president we've ever had, which is really true. And yet, you know, he's the president of the United States. He's not the president of the Zionist Organization of America. Shout out to Mort Klein, wherever you are, if you're watching. Or the president of Israel. He has his own interests. He has his own, you know, priorities. And they're not always going to perfectly align with those of Israel.

They certainly are not. I just happen to believe that in this case, in the very issue we're talking about, the hostages, Iran, Hamas, that it's an American interest. That's why I'm saying that. I agree. America has to look out for its interests, and they won't always be the same as Israeli interests. No question about it. But in the things I'm mentioning, I'm actually surprised because I know that most of Trump's appointees

think, agree with what I'm just saying, what I've just said. Yeah, well, I think that's true. And as far as Biden, I think his weakness and, you know, his inability to choose between being pro-Israel and catering to the anti-Israel, anti-Semitic wing of his own party, you know, the intersectional left wing of the Democrats, is

made him, you know, sort of so ambivalent and, you know, as much a hindrance as a help during the war that I think that's his legacy as far as Israel is concerned, as much as his apologists try to claim otherwise. Now, in terms of Trump, I think the assumption on the part of many in the chattering classes has been that Trump is an isolationist.

which is, I think, based as much on as anything on his choice of the slogan America First, which has historical associations with pre-World War II appeasers and anti-Semites, but doesn't really have much to do with today's issues, especially when you consider that he's a president who wants to buy Greenland and is focused on the geopolitical struggle with China. So I don't think, you know, isolationism is fair.

But what do you think his foreign policy priorities will be? And do you think that he can really end the war between Russia and Ukraine that has been so embraced by the left and by so many of our friends on the neoconservative right, who I think are just nostalgic for the Cold War? Well...

Boy, I'm not going to touch that one with a 10-foot pole, Jonathan. No? No. No. You know, I'm surrounded by people who are very concerned about Ukraine in particular. Yeah, a lot of Jewish conservatives turned out to be big Ukrainian patriots. Right, exactly. So, you know, it's a constant.

complicated. And I say, you know what? Thank God I've got my own conflict to worry about over here in Gaza. It's complicated. I think that Trump, again, he has surprised us many times in the past.

And one surprise we may see is, yes, he's kind of a, he works on instinct. It's not just his base and it's not just his slogans. He's got this gut reaction to things. It's kind of like the way that he's much better speaking off the cuff and extemporizing than when reading from the teleprompter. Right. And he says what he means and it is, you know what's going on in his gut and his intuition. Right.

So because I truly believe having witnessed these, when his intuition comes out and he talks off the cuff, that he knows the difference between good and evil. And the evil in the Middle East, there is no question in my mind that he knows that Israel is the good guy in these conflicts, in this seven-front war against Israel. I have no doubt in my mind that he knows that.

Then the question is, will that conflict with his fantasy that he's going to be, you know, the Nobel Peace, the greatest Nobel Peace Prize winner in the history? You know how he says nobody has ever in the history of ever. He speaks in hyperbole. That's kind of the way New York real estate works.

brokers do, which a lot of people never understand. I think if he thinks he's getting a Nobel Peace Prize, he's dreaming. Exactly. You know. Yeah.

Barack Obama got one without doing anything. Trump could literally cure cancer and save the world 10 times over and he would never get one. Well, of course not. And maybe Elon Musk will have to create a new committee that's not the Nobel Prize. He'll create a new prize committee and then Trump can win it. Right. Something like that. No, so I'm saying I believe, I truly believe that he's on the right side of history. But

Because of his character, no, I would say his personality, not his character. I don't have a problem with Trump's character. I had a greater problem with Biden's character, by the way. I think, though, because of his personality and his quirkiness and that he's erratic a lot of the times, we don't know how it's going to play out because he can wake up in the morning and say, you know what, and then do something that's completely out of context.

I would say not even as part of his own worldview. Well, he's always thinking off the top of his head. As I heard a conversation with H.R. McMaster, who was one of his national security advisors, you know, one day he said, let's give me an option for bombing Mexico. Now, you know, that blew people's minds. But he was saying, let's do something about the drug cartels.

Give me some options. You know, so he can go off in different directions. But I do think that the notion that he's an isolationist and is in misnomer, as I said, he wants to buy Greenland. That's not something that an isolationist, if anything, you know, he likes he likes William McKinley, you know, and I agree with him about changing the name back under that mountain in Alaska. But.

But, you know, he loved McKinley because of his tariffs, because McKinley was also an imperialist, you know, on McKinley's watch. The United States, you know, went to war with Spain and got the Philippines and Puerto Rico, which, you know, is still an American possession, you know, so who knows what he's going to do. But I think isolationism really isn't the right way to describe it.

No, I agree with you there. So it's not a question of isolationism, but it is what is relevant is how much he believes that his influence will win the war, lose the war, win. You know, he's very focused on that.

He wants to go down in history. Now, by the way, he already has gone down in history. I don't think he's got to worry about that. He is so sui generis as an American president and this second term. He's going down in history no matter what. Yeah, he's not being forgotten for good or for ill, for sure. No way. And I believe that in the end he's going to do the right thing. But I am nervous. I have to say, nervous by these little...

You know, these little quirky things in the middle that don't make sense with the rest of his world. It doesn't make sense that he said, all hell will break loose. And then two days later, he's saying, negotiate for three women. I don't...

It seemed to contradict, he seemed to contradict himself. Yeah, well, I think that's very fair. And I think a lot of the people who are, you know, sort of denying it, you know, in the pro-Israel community are, you know, they're spinning. But we'll see what happens, as you say. Let's switch for a moment to discuss the way the new administration will seek to deal with the surge in anti-Semitism.

Powered by the left and the intersectional wing of the Democratic Party, the executive orders he signed revoking DEI, the diversity, equity, and inclusion, what I like to call the woke catechism, throughout the government and effectively firing all the federal departmental woke commissars, I think will have an enormous impact on the issue as well as the prospect of the Departments of Justice and Education closing.

starting to seriously pursue those institutions that take federal money, which is basically every college and university, that discriminates on the base of race or enables anti-Semitism because of DEI. Do you think this is really the beginning of the end of the woke war in the West or is as many fear that the hold of the left on so many of our institutions is so strong that not even Trump can break it?

Well, I certainly hope it will have a huge impact and then maybe have similar impact in Europe. I mean, others watch America. We see that cultural trends follow from what American cultural trends do. And it's not an accident that many countries are siding more with the right-wing candidates.

partly it's this it's this woke culture is that it's gotten out of hand as I said before about the left they go too far the fact that President Trump had to say in his inauguration speech from now on there are two genders male and female now Jonathan you and I are old enough to remember a time when if someone had made that statement we would have said what what

Well, that was actually in a Monty Python movie, The Life of Brian, where somebody – would they be able to do that scene where one of the characters in The Life of Brian suddenly declares he wants to be a woman and they all just say, you're a loony? They couldn't do that now, but that's why I think people underestimate the importance of that issue.

As I think I told you, perhaps in our last podcast, you know, if you watched sports, you know, on television in the United States, especially in swing states,

And you saw this one really, this one pro-Trump ad, which spoke of Kamala Harris saying that she wants to pay for, you know, transgender surgeries for inmates, you know, who are illegal immigrants, which is about, you know, just really going out on a limb. And then the commercial concluded, you know, Kamala Harris is for they, them, President Trump is for us. Exactly. She's for you. That was the most effective ad that he had. Yeah.

So I think people underestimate how important these issues are and also how connected they are to the plague of antisemitism, which a lot of people don't realize that DEI and intersectionality and critical race theory specifically enable antisemitism because they label Jews and Israelis as white oppressors. And that's what's behind all the stuff going on on college campuses. It's not just, you know,

you know traditional anti-semitism it's this new woke leftist anti-semitism and you know i think there is a real chance personally that

If the Justice Department goes after every institution that is discriminating on the basis of race because of DEI, which is the opposite of what people thought it would do, which when you asked Biden about it, who was totally clueless, he would say, well, it's just about people not discriminating. And the New York Times even reports it that way, but it's actually the opposite. I think there really can, I think there is a chance that

that the tide is turning. Facebook ended its DEI program. It's happening all over industry that people are seeing. They don't have to be bullied by the left on this issue anymore. And I think Trump really does. This is where you really have the power of the presidency can help turn the tide on that issue. Well, you know, it's like with Martin Luther King. There was a time when, if you said things had to be based on merit...

and not all this other stuff, right? Merit. That was a good thing because that meant it was blind.

It was blind. It doesn't matter who you are, what your sexual preference is, what color your skin, it doesn't matter. If you pass a test or you're good at what you're doing, whatever it is, it doesn't matter what it is, but you do it and you earn it, then who cares what the rest of it is? And the anti-discrimination laws were good. It means if you're good at your job, you shouldn't be discriminated against because you're a woman or gay or something like that.

everything turned upside down where all that meant is you're not even allowed to not hire someone if that person fits into one of those categories. So yes, and I think a lot of people are just sick and tired of it. But you know what's also interesting? They're all hypocrites because if anything proves that gender matters, it's transgenderism. Transgender people

are the most gender-focused of anybody, okay? If you're a man, you say, "I identify as a woman," and you want to become a woman, you make a distinction, a clear distinction between male and female. So you should also be happy that Trump said there are two genders, male and female. Second of all, the idea, though, that we have to over— we have to restate the obvious because common sense has gone out the window, down the toilet,

We see that now with crime rates. It's not just Israel. We see that people who... We see gay people supporting Hamas terrorists who would tar and feather them if they were in Gaza. We see women supported with keffiyehs. Really? You know what your life would be like in one of those countries? It makes you crazy when you see the hypocrisy and also the delusion

So normal people, when I say normal, I just mean people who aren't ideological, who aren't necessarily political, just live their lives like people who also like to go to the movies and order pizza. They think this is loomy. All of it has gone way, way out of control. Yeah. Now, on anti-Semitism, we have some very serious issues to break down, but also some not so serious ones.

And by that, I'm referring to the claim that sort of went viral on social media that Elon Musk was giving Trump supporters a Nazi Heil Hitler salute at an inauguration event.

You know, it appeared that the left was intent on dropping their claims that Trump was a fascist and going to destroy democracy. That went down the Orwellian memory hole, you know, when they wanted to make peace with him. But it didn't take much for that anybody I don't like is Hitler meme to be revived, did it? You know, it's so ridiculous.

Now, it's true, there was a Nazi salute that Musk raised his arm to believe. He put his hand on his heart and then threw his arm out. You know, my heart to you, thank you. Exactly. And he's kind of very, he's awkward, he admits it. He's awkward physically and sort of, you know, it's part of his charm, if you find him charming at all. It's part of his schtick, you could say. Yeah.

and he says he's on the spectrum and all that. The point is, he's not a Nazi. We know he's not. There is no evidence that he is. He has not a single thing in common with an anti-Semite. He wears a necklace commemorating the hostages. He's been to Israel, he's been to Auschwitz. Exactly. He's met with Netanyahu.

is not an anti-Semite. So doing that with his arm raised up is ridiculous. It's a typical ploy to, you know, to smear somebody. Yeah, and you take a picture and you look at that, you could find pictures of the left-wing politicians throwing their arms out.

And, you know, nobody makes a big deal about it. I want to say that, you know, the thing that really interested me in that, you know, and it's kind of a story for a day, it will go away, but it was a tell, you know, it showed that it didn't take much to bring this back. It was interesting that the Anti-Defamation League, which has been so politicized under Jonathan Greenblatt and, you know, really doing, you know, the spadework for Democrats, it

The ADL basically said, no, don't, don't, this, Musk is not an anti-Semite. That wasn't a Hitler salute. Don't do this. And yet, if you looked on X, Abe Foxman, Greenblatt's, you know, saner, supposed, you know, predecessor, with whom I had some arguments, but also, you know, he was, you know, he was someone who you had to take seriously as a defender of Jews, a defender of Israel, even though, as they say, we had our disagreements.

He was saying, oh, no, it's definitely, you know, a Nazi symbol. He's a Nazi. And I was just like, wait a minute. If Jonathan Greenblatt is now the same one in this conversation about the ADL,

What does that say? But that people who are just all in on hating Trump and hating the people around Trump just cannot help themselves anymore. No, and I'll tell you something. This is what I hate about personality cults. And those who hate certain figures are no different from those who worship figures, okay? The Trumpkins, but the anti-Trumpers are no different because it's a personality cult.

And the idea is there's plenty to criticize of any leader. Any leader you vote for, you don't vote for, and there's legitimate criticism. And Trump is not immune to that, nor is Netanyahu immune to that.

When they go after the nonsense, like the Musk is a Nazi, salute them. Or the myth that Trump said that the neo-Nazis at Charlottesville in 2017 were very fine people, which he didn't say. But yet it continues to be recycled even by people like Obama and Clinton and

And Biden and Kamala Harris, I mean, they never stop lying about that. But, you know, it's kind of. And about Netanyahu wanting the hostages to rot in the tunnels. OK, I'm sorry. You want to criticize Netanyahu for his handling of the war? Go for it. You want to criticize him for for being asleep on the job on October 7th? There's plenty you can. I may disagree with it. I may argue with it.

But it's legitimate to say, you know what, this guy is not doing what I want him to do. To start slinging mud at these people is just... But again, you see, Jonathan, I think that does the slingers of mud more harm than good. I think it...

It hurts them more, and I think they should look around and notice who's been winning elections and maybe look inward. Not that I want them to ever win again, but maybe they want to ask themselves why they're losing. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think that's a very good point. Now, just to go a little more domestic on Trump in terms of the United States, one issue that is going to be a major battle in the coming months will be Trump's efforts to start deporting illegal immigrants, especially those who have committed crimes, although anyone who enters the U.S. illegally is committing a crime. We can be sure that most of the organized liberal Jewish world will go to war to prevent this.

But how much resonance do you think that support for Biden's open borders policies will really have among Jews, many of whom appear to have been red-pilled by both the rise of Islamist forces and of an intersectional and anti-Semitic hard left? Well, you know, it's a good question because Jews, many Jews say, well, how could I be against immigration when my family, you know, came to America, escaped the Nazis?

But we're talking about legal versus illegal immigration. It's one thing to go through the proper channels and another thing to climb over a fence and be handed money and a driver's license and all that stuff. I know someone who just passed her citizenship test

She studied for it. She had to be asked questions. She had to be here with a green card and go through the process. And she's very proud. She hates illegal immigrants. She thinks that they skipped all the steps. Now, Jews, I think...

that what we're seeing is probably many more people are supportive of getting rid of illegal migrants than would admit it publicly. As they see how menacing the streets are in many of the cities, inner cities, the subways in New York. I think that you're gonna not hear, you're not gonna hear liberals admitting this at a cocktail party, but probably deep down they're not so sad about it.

Yeah, I think that's very true. And I think comparisons between people who are coming from Central America, which are terrible countries, I'm not going to use Trump's phrase for it, but

This is a family program, after all. But that is not the same thing as people fleeing for their lives from Nazi Europe, where every Jew had a death sentence against him. That analogy amounts to Holocaust denial. It's just not true. So I think that's

You know, that's a false argument, but it is one that is probably going to rile people up. But I think, as you say, and I think even the New York Times this past weekend, you know, published polls showing that, wow, to their surprise, most Americans are perfectly fine with deporting and even mass deportations of people who are illegal, who don't belong here and who are some of whom are committing crimes or whether they're committing crimes or not.

They are overwhelming, you know, America's resources right now. It's a different situation than a century ago or 150 years ago.

And that they think, you know, and that this surge of illegal immigration that took place under Biden hurts working class people, it hurts poor people. It doesn't hurt the credentialed elites, whom many liberal Jews, you know, number among. But I think they're going to find that that's an issue that doesn't really resonate with most Americans as much as they think it does. Well, right. I'll tell you another thing is,

that even if statistically I've heard the argument that the violent crimes committed by illegal immigrants are not higher percentage-wise than the rest of the country, the rest of the population. I've heard many different arguments that we're exaggerating about the amount of violent crimes they commit. But, you know, if you leave off percentages, that was an argument made by the governor of New York

about why the subway isn't dangerous. Statistically,

blah, blah, blah, this percentage, that percentage. But when you see a woman burned alive on the subway and when you see people pushed in the tracks, you don't care. I don't care what the mayor or the governor tells me about percentages. And I think this applies also to illegal immigration and migrants. Of course, not all of them are raping and killing and not all of them are dealing drugs. Of course not. But it doesn't matter if you...

see it up close in your neighborhood and on your streets and in your building and wherever it is across the country. You no longer care about statistics.

I think that's very true. I think this is it's partly, you know, it's partly an issue rooted in economic realities because I think it does hurt working class people. It accounts for the housing problems as well as depressing wages. But it's also one of perception and one that is rightly about perceptions. But at any rate, Ruthie, that is all the time we have today.

Thanks so much. It's been great talking to you again. Thanks so much for joining us. Please read Ruthie's columns at JNS.org, watch her Israel Undiplomatic podcast, and follow her on X at Ruthie Bloom. We also want to thank our audience. Please remember to tune in every day for Jonathan Tobin Daily Edition, and whether you're listening to us on Apple, Spotify, YouTube Music, or any of the other podcast platforms, watching us live on Facebook or X, or on our website,

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