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cover of episode History’s Case for Trump’s Gaza Plan - with Andrew Roberts

History’s Case for Trump’s Gaza Plan - with Andrew Roberts

2025/2/22
logo of podcast Call Me Back - with Dan Senor

Call Me Back - with Dan Senor
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Andrew Roberts: 我认为特朗普总统基本上想表达两点。首先，巴勒斯坦人民的主权选择，从根本上来说，已经不在他们手中了，他和以色列以及该地区其他参与者有权凌驾于巴勒斯坦在加沙的主权之上（如果它曾经存在的话）。当然，第二点是他谈到的人口转移，也就是大规模驱逐出境。大多数全球对此的回应在我看来是令人惊讶的，作为一个历史学家，那就是尽管巴勒斯坦人在10月7日采取了行动，他们仍然保留着主权，并且在没有他们积极批准的情况下，任何驱逐出境都不能发生。但实际上，如果你回顾过去，至少是过去130年左右，情况并非如此。事实往往是，历史的见证在这方面几乎是普遍的。如果你对你的邻居发动一场未经挑衅的突然袭击……然后你随后输掉了作为对那场袭击的直接回应而发生的战争，你通常会失去你的政府和你的主权。事实上，很多时候，会发生你不想或不支持的转移，但坦率地说，你只能忍受。我的文章就是关于这个的。它按时间顺序带领读者回顾十几个例子。坦率地说，如果我有空间，我还可以再举出五六个。读者们一直在给我发邮件说，20世纪20年代的希腊和土耳其呢？是的，实际上，这也将是一个极好的方法来强化这样一个观点，即大规模驱逐和人口转移确实会发生。它们不是什么好事。没有人对此感到高兴。这并不是一件特别令人愉快的事情。但事实上，它经常改变未来的所有参考条件。它确实带来了和平。 Dan Senor: 我想补充一点，战争的结局并非发动战争的人所想的那样。对于那些为发动战争者提供掩护的地区人士来说，情况也应该如此。我们最近采访了以色列政治分析家阿米特·塞格尔，他只是指出，所有这些中东政府都认为，哦，是的，巴勒斯坦人，哈马斯，他们可以这样做，他们可以那样做，一切都会回到战争开始前的状态，我们将继续为他们提供支持，我们将重建，我们将把赫蒂·邓普蒂重新拼凑起来。没有代价，不仅对哈马斯发动战争没有代价，而且对这些其他阿拉伯政府来说，不做任何事情来阻止哈马斯上台也没有代价。当然。哈马斯公开且正式地声明，一旦他们有机会，他们将再次发动10月7日那样的袭击，这一事实应该向该地区所有人，尤其是以色列、美国及其盟友强调，这是不允许发生的，在这件事结束后，哈马斯不能也不应该继续成为加沙的政府。因为如果那样的话，我们所做的就是等待下一次尝试。

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This chapter provides an update on the release of six hostages from Gaza, including the heartbreaking news about the murder of the Bibas children. It also discusses Hamas's decision to release more hostages than initially planned, possibly due to American pressure, including President Trump's controversial Gaza proposal.
  • Six hostages released from Gaza
  • Release possibly due to American pressure
  • Trump's proposal for US control of Gaza
  • Heartbreaking news about the murder of the Bibas children

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Following a gut-wrenching 48 hours for the Bibas family and for all of us, six living hostages were released from Gaza today, including two who had been held there not for a year, but a decade. Eliya Cohen, Omer Shem Tov, Omer Wenkert, and Tal Shoham were abducted on October 7, 2023. Avera Mengistu, an Ethiopian-Israeli, and Hisham al-Sayed, an Israeli Arab, had crossed into Gaza in 2014 and 2015, and were then taken hostage by Hamas.

Hamas’s decision to release more living hostages than originally planned today is believed – according to our Israeli sources – to be a response to a sustained American pressure campaign. Part of that pressure includes President Trump’s proposal for the U.S. to take control of Gaza and relocate its entire population.

Two weeks since its unveiling, Trump’s Gaza proposal has continued to drive headlines and debate around the world. Though that proposal is already impacting the policy decisions of various stakeholders in Gaza, it is still largely perceived as a shocking, unprecedented idea. For this episode of Call Me Back, we sat down with a historian who argues that Trump’s plan is in fact aligned with the outcome of many modern wars. 

Andrew Roberts is a British historian, member of the House of Lords, and the author of 24 books, including the New York Times bestseller, Churchill: Walking with Destiny. In a recent article for the Washington Free Beacon, Roberts writes, “peoples who unleash unprovoked aggressive wars against their neighbors and are then defeated…lose either their government or their sovereignty, or both.”To read more by Andrew Roberts on this topic, go to the Washington Free Beacon: https://freebeacon.com/israel/the-historical-case-for-trumps-riviera/