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cover of episode The Brutality of War - with Yossi Klein Halevi

The Brutality of War - with Yossi Klein Halevi

2024/12/30
logo of podcast Call Me Back - with Dan Senor

Call Me Back - with Dan Senor
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Yossi Klein Halevi: 自10月7日哈马斯袭击以来,以色列的目标已从阻止哈马斯袭击转变为摧毁哈马斯政权。这一目标的转变使得原有的交战规则不再适用,因此需要调整。虽然《纽约时报》的文章指出了以色列在交战规则上的调整,但这并非新闻,因为在10月7日之后,以色列社会各界人士都认为有必要改变交战规则。以色列军队仍然致力于遵守规则,并且在努力减少平民伤亡。 哈马斯是一个恐怖组织,它将自身隐藏在平民之中,并利用平民作为掩护。这使得以色列在打击哈马斯的同时,难以避免造成平民伤亡。以色列军队尽最大努力减少平民伤亡,但由于哈马斯采取的策略,平民伤亡在所难免。 国际法是在战争是必要的,胜利也是必要的这一假设下制定的。以色列不可能在不放松一些以往的限制的情况下实现其军事目标。哈马斯是一个强大的、深陷民间的恐怖组织,要摧毁哈马斯,就必须放松交战规则。 将以色列的行为与其他国家的行为进行比较是不公平的。以色列面临的敌人与世界其他冲突中的敌人性质完全不同。哈马斯试图最大化以色列平民伤亡,而国际法在这种情况下并不适用。 批评以色列的人应该考虑到以色列所面临的特殊情况。以色列正在为生存而战,它正在尽最大努力减少平民伤亡。 关于人质问题,以色列政府应该优先考虑营救人质,即使这意味着要与哈马斯达成协议。 Dan Senor: 《纽约时报》的文章指出,以色列在应对10月7日哈马斯袭击的军事战略和交战规则上发生了前所未有的转变,中层军官被赋予了打击数千个目标的重大权力,并且承担了更大的平民伤亡风险。 以色列国防军(IDF)的历史上,在对恐怖分子的行动中,如果IDF的目标是消灭恐怖分子,那么即使采取了预防措施,也可能造成平民伤亡。历史上,IDF的目标是将此类行动中被杀害的平民数量限制在10人或更少。但在这次针对哈马斯的战争中,这个数字增加到了20人或更少。 文章还批评了IDF用来估计袭击区域平民数量的方法,以及IDF使用的炸弹类型和对平民的警告。 以色列的回应不仅是战略性的和进攻性的,也是一种报复。以色列需要在中东被视为巨人,在西方被视为大卫。10月7日之后,至少最初是这样,在中东被视为软弱,在西方仍然被视为恶霸。在过去的几个月里,以色列至少成功地调整了该地区对以色列软弱的灾难性看法。 以色列面临的困境是,它必须在中东被视为巨人,在西方被视为大卫。在与巴勒斯坦人的冲突中,以色列是巨人,他们是弱者。但在该地区,以色列并非不受挑战的强权,它正在为生存而战。 以色列对10月7日袭击的回应,部分原因是出于战略考虑,部分原因是出于报复。以色列在过去30多年里从加沙、黎巴嫩南部和西岸部分地区撤军,但每次撤军后,以色列都回到了这些地区作战。以色列的撤军在哈马斯看来是软弱的表现。 以色列需要在中东被视为强权,才能在该地区生存。但与此同时,以色列也必须在西方被视为弱者,才能获得西方的支持。 以色列的道德困境在于,它必须在与巴勒斯坦人的冲突中被视为巨人,但在与该地区其他国家的冲突中被视为弱者。

Deep Dive

Chapters
This chapter discusses the New York Times article criticizing Israel's military strategy and rules of engagement during its response to Hamas' October 7th attack. It also briefly touches upon the legacy of President Jimmy Carter and introduces Yossi Klein Halevi, the episode's guest.
  • The New York Times published an investigative piece on Israel's military response to the October 7th Hamas attack.
  • The article highlights a shift in Israel's military strategy and rules of engagement, leading to an increase in civilian casualties.
  • The chapter introduces Yossi Klein Halevi and briefly discusses the legacy of President Jimmy Carter.

Shownotes Transcript

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Last Thursday, The New York Times published a long investigative piece titled “Israel Loosened Its Rules to Bomb Hamas Fighters, Killing Many More Civilians”. The article tries to identify an unprecedented shift in the IDF’s military strategy and rules of engagement during its response to Hamas’s October 7 invasion, and reports on the impact on Palestinian civilians, including a substantial increase in risk to Palestinian civilians. 

To discuss the ethics of Israel fighting a just war justly, to help us unpack and respond to the key charges in the Times investigation, and to briefly reflect on the (post-presidential) legacy of President Jimmy Carter, we welcome back to the podcast, Yossi Klein Halevi, who is a senior fellow at the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem. Yossi has written a number of books, including his latest, "Letters to My Palestinian Neighbor," which was a New York Times bestseller. He has written for the New York Times, Wall Street Journal and Times of Israel. He is co-host of "For Heaven's Sake" podcast.

Yossi Klein Halevi's books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B001IXOA04)

Articles discussed in this episode: 

“Israel Loosened Its Rules to Bomb Hamas Fighters, Killing Many More Civilians” https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/26/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-gaza-bombing.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&tgrp=sty&pvid=1FCD1780-A3CA-40EB-BBFF-99870A87D46E)

“Teens forced to perform sexual acts on each other: Report to UN details Hamas torture” https://www.timesofisrael.com/teens-forced-to-perform-sexual-acts-on-each-other-report-to-un-details-hamas-torture/)

“Jimmy Carter, friend of dictators and champion of terrorists” 

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/3181150/jimmy-carter-friend-dictators-and-champion-terrorists/)