DEBATE: Are Trans-Men Men? | Dr. Chris & Amy Vs Quick & Glock
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Good evening, everybody. Welcome to Modern Day Debate. I'm your host, Ryan. Tonight, we're going to be debating our trans men. Men, get us started. We have Glock. So thank you for being here, Glock, and also finding us a quick replacement. Sanvi, unfortunately, couldn't make it. We're going to get the title fixed. But in the meantime, we're going to hand the floor over to Glock. So each side has up to 10 minutes. So yeah, we'll let you take it away.

Thank you and Modern Day Debate for hosting this quick. Thank you so much for filling in last minute. And thank you to our opponents for showing up. We're really excited to have this discussion. There is a lot of information in our opening statement, so we found it best to create some presentation slides. So let me know when you're able to see my screen. Okay. Can you guys see my PowerPoint? Yes, we can.

That's it right? Just my power? Okay, perfect. So, let me minimize myself sorry. So the question surrounding today's debate, are trans men men? Our side is clearly saying no. So, there's not a clear debate proposition but if it is all trans men are men then we are clearly taking the negation.

So the first point I really want to stress, I think it's really important for these types of debates, is to acknowledge that conceptual analysis is extremely difficult. A good example to point out is looking at the large body of literature trying to figure out what knowledge means. If you're familiar, many philosophers have devoted much of their careers trying to give reasons to understand what constitutes knowledge. And so in the same spirit, we will undertake a conceptual analysis of the term "man."

This debate is how people understand what the word man is. Any sound or symbol can be associated with any meaning, so we're trying to understand how the word has been colloquially understood. And today, Quick and I are going to build a case about what the word man means, and we will present how the extension of the term man is used as evidence for the meaning of the term.

Our first argument, if the extension of the common usage of man and the trans-inclusive definition of man are different, then they have different intentions. The extensions of the common usage of man and the trans-inclusive definition of man are different. Therefore, they have different intentions.

If the extension of the trans-inclusive definition is not the same extension as the common usage definition, then it will not be a subset of the intention. And if it is the case that the trans-inclusive definition is not common usage, we would then like to ask our opponents why choose to co-opt the sound man rather than disambiguate the semantics.

Our main argument today is that the traditional view, which is that a man is a biological concept, is the common usage of the term. The word man has been historically reported in many dictionaries as adult human male, which I believe provides defeasible evidence for the meaning of the term. And not to our surprise, many trans-inclusive philosophers have admitted that this is common usage.

Though I think a better way to go about this is to see which theory better explains how we actually apply the term man. And we can investigate an exemplary case, men's sports. So why do we distinguish men's sports and women's sports? Well, there's a correlation, as everyone knows, between your sex and your ability to perform in certain sports. And people believe that the disparity was large enough that they needed to segregate the sexes.

It's obvious though that when people said men's sports, it's not the sports of how people looked or performed because historically trans people were excluded from the concept. And that's kind of the important part here is that you don't need a rigorous definition of man to know that trans men were excluded from the concept. Another quick case I can briefly go over is gender reveals.

So when a woman is pregnant and says, "It's a boy, it's a girl," it seems straightforwardly obvious that she's using the term to refer to a biological concept. I mean, fetuses can't perform, they don't talk, they lack strong psychological states, and they obtain very little of the non-biological things that pro-trans people claim matter. And so it seems abundantly clear to us that the usage of the term here is a biological one. And I would like to ask our opponents if they think otherwise, what's going on in the sonogram?

These are just cases I've listed out where the common meaning of the term man is used in a sex-based notion and has nothing to do with social or psychological features. I believe for our opponent's view to go through, they must provide cases where the common meaning of the term man is used in a non-biological notion.

And so now I'll be briefly going over some popular counter views and showing where they fall short. A very popular pro-trans view is the self-identification view. And under a self-ID view, you might say a man is someone who identifies as a man. And of course, first we need to get clear on whether there's equivocation of the terms or not. So if a man in the definition is used in the very same sense to be defined, then this is regressive since it provides no meaning no matter how many recursions it takes.

Alternatively, there's some other options if they are using man and the definition in a different way, then I guess we would need clarification on what they further mean. But the last option, if a man is just someone who utters or expresses the phrase, I am a man, then on this view, that's all that's needed for them to count as a man, which seems highly impossible. So.

So under a social view, you might say that a man is someone who functions or behaves with the masculine social archetype. The biggest issue here is that there are clear cases where people don't match the masculine social archetype but still claim to be a man. Alternatively, it's possible for someone to match the social masculine archetype without identifying as a man. And what about gender non-conforming trans men, masculine females, or masculine non-binary individuals?

Thankfully, our opponent, Dr. Thompson, has a YouTube channel, so we're able to kind of gauge his thoughts on gender. And in this clip, he says being a man or woman is about behavior. And so if that sort of endorses a behavioral view or a performative view similar to a social view laid out on the one above, then our opponents will run into a similar problem.

The last view we want to go over is a psychological view, which you might say a man is someone who desires to be treated in a way that males typically are. But how does this account for someone who is physiologically identical to a male but doesn't have a desire either way? How does this account for children who don't have a desire either way? Are they just genderless?

the same concern can be applied to some disabled or cognitively impaired people. Another clip, Dr. Thompson said that gender is psychological and social identity in his video, Neuroscience Professor Destorys Shapiro on Transgenderism Part One. If our opponents endorse a similar view to the one analyzed above a psychological view, then they will run into the same issues. Not only do we argue that the endorsement of these views might have implausible conclusions, but they don't better account for the cases that I mentioned that the biological view covers.

And lastly, it's important to remember the purpose of this debate. So this is a conversation about language. It's not a debate about having a robust understanding of biology or the classification of intersex cases. We acknowledge that concepts can be vague, but what our main point is that giving ambiguous cases won't tease out anything meaningful out of the clear-cut cases.

Furthermore, language enables us to communicate with other people about our concepts, to understand the word is to have the right dispositions, which is to apply the word in roughly the same circumstances that people in your speech community apply it to. This is the entire point I'm making about common usage. If our opponents use the term man idiosyncratically, that's completely fine, but I don't believe they showed up to this debate to admit they're using the term in an unusual way.

So presumably they want to argue that trans men are a part of the concept of man. And under our view, they will have to show us that common usage favors their view to successfully demonstrate this. And that's it. So I'll stop sharing my screen. All righty. So you've left three minutes and 30 seconds for quick, which I don't think quick is going to mind since we're pulling it out. Just me. Yeah. Yeah. Just for, Oh, you don't want to do an introductory statement at all quick or where did you want the three minutes?

Oh, no, I give it all to her. Okay, we'll take the three minutes. That's okay. No, no, don't get don't get greedy. Don't get greedy. Yeah, that's right. All right. Awesome. Well, we're gonna we're gonna hand it over to the other side. Do a little quick housekeeping. You know, if this is your first time here, we're modern day debate. We're a neutral platform hosting debates on science, politics, religion. That will not change. I think that tag has been in stone for quite a while. So

Dr. Chris is right on it. I was going to ask who wanted to go first, but Dr. Chris, how percent? No, I'm just joking. All right. We're going to go over your screen share and let you make the case for why trans men are men. And the floor is yours.

Great. Thank you for setting that up. All right. So, yeah, as Glock already pointed out, our question tonight is, are trans men men? We're taking the answer to that question to be yes. And she laid out, you know, kind of the typical case that I would have thought, that it's largely just going to be

an argument over definitions and philosophical syllogisms, but I'm hoping that we can shed some light from a scientist's perspective on this issue, because I do think that there is space for the concept of man to include trans men.

So what are the clues that we use to know that a person is a man? Okay, so if we're going to start with the biological concept, we're going to be thinking of the idea that there are sexual dimorphisms, that they're going to be discrete, separate endpoints. An example of this would be that a typical human male will have a penis and a typical human female will have a vagina. These are what we consider to be dimorphisms. They're bimodal and completely with no overlap whatsoever. That's why they're dimorphic.

But most of the differences that we know between men and women aren't going to be the things that are what we would categorize as dimorphic, right? We don't get an opportunity to see most people's genitalia. We don't get to see their chromosomes. We don't get to see the size of their gametes or the level of what their circulating sex hormones are.

Instead, most of what we get to see are going to be things that are known as sex differences, right? Some of these are rooted in biology and some of them are going to be rooted in the way that one expresses their gender.

An example of a biological difference is going to be height. The average man is taller than the average woman. So this is a bar graph that I made here of a population of men and women, male and female. And you can see that there's a statistical difference here. There's four stars indicating it's less than like 0.0001 p-value. So there's a difference here.

The thing is, we can also show the individual data points for the same data set. And each point here represents an individual, man in blue, or a female in pink.

And the thing that you should see here is that even though there is a statistical difference on this biological concept, that in fact there is overlap and that there's variation that exists in a population. So, for instance, there are some women who are taller than the average man. And then, of course, there are some very small, very diminutive men who are shorter than the average woman.

So this is going to be the thing. Like when we look at even biological differences that are statistically different, such as height, it's not going to be a reliable indicator of whether knowing whether something is a man or a woman. Now, the expression, the gender expression of a person and the identity of a person is a psychological concept. It is rooted in the brain. And of course, there are sex differences in the brain.

So this is showing different features of the brain, total tissue volume of the brain or gray matter volume or white matter volume of boys, which is shown in blue, or girls, which is shown in red from ages 5 to 25. And each individual point here, so these are the averages, and each individual point is an individual that was either measured singly or was measured multiple times over different ages.

So both repeated measurements. And as you can see, the average male brain is larger than the average female brain in humans.

Of course, average males are larger than average females, which is one of the reasons why the brain is larger in males than it is in females. But the other thing I want to point out is that there are red dots above the blue line, which means those are girls with bigger brains than the average boys. And that there are blue dots below the red line, which means there are girls with smaller brains than the there are boys with smaller brains than the average girl. What this means is that there's an enormous amount of variability.

So that in general, there's going to be a difference, but there are going to be edge cases. And that's where transgenderism falls into. Now getting to...

say sexual orientation or gender identity involves many steps. I don't have time to go into this, but hopefully we can talk about it. If we want to talk about biology, I'm prepared with a bunch of slides. I'm a neuroscientist who has studied, uh, sex differences in the brain for 10 years. But the first 10 years of my, uh, experiences in neuroscientists was studying sex differences in the brains of animals and how hormones shape those differences. And the thing is chromosomes, uh,

Obviously, if we're talking about mammals, they're going to have XY chromosome arrangement that's going to be male or XX that's female typically. But then the Y chromosome will have an effect on the bipotential gonad, which all both males and females have. And then that is going to lead to the production of testes, which is going to lead to testosterone, which is going to act on the brain. I'm going to go a little bit over. Hopefully, Amy is okay with that. Sorry.

So she says she's okay with that. So the transgender brain is, there are many, many studies that show the transgender brains are actually somewhat intermediate between either their natal sex

or their preferred gender. And this is an example of this. So this is looking at white matter connectivity within the brain. And for instance, what we're looking at here is someone who is born female, but identifies as a male with an intermediate sense of the white matter connectivity within the corpus callosum or within the superior frontal blade on the right side that is intermediate between females, cisgendered females and cisgendered males.

And this is true also if you're talking about individuals born male but identify as female. They're intermediate. They're in between. And study after study with transgender brains shows this. But the thing is, are trans men men? Okay, it's complicated. It depends on how you define things. You're absolutely right, Glock. Yes, it's going to depend upon how we define things. And I imagine the rest of the debate is going to be this boring discourse over the definition of words as all these debates are. But are they biological men? No.

Not really, but it depends on what biological feature you're talking about. Since the gender identity has to be rooted in the brain, there's no other place where that comes from. And if we see that their brains are intermediate between male and female, well, at the very least, it's ambiguous.

Are they men? Well, practically speaking, yeah. The way we use that word, yes. So I'm going to have a quiz for our interlocutors. Hopefully they're going to be prepared for this. But this is a collection of trans men and cis men, and I'm going to have them figure out who is what, and we're going to take a look at that. Okay.

Okay. All right. Well, similarly, I will, it's just a little past three, but we'll bump it up to 3.30 just to give you a little time there, Amy, to make your case as well. So we'll, yeah, you've ended the screen share. Let's just pop back to the main screen. So we're going to hand it over to Amy Newman. We'll give you three and a half on the floor. We'll say for saying it was okay for Dr. Chris to go over. So thank you, Dr. Chris. And the floor is yours, Amy.

Thank you so very much, Ryan, and all of my interlocutors. Hello, everyone. My name is Amy Newman, and I am a teacher, comedian, counter-apologist. But tonight, I would like to talk to you about, are trans men men? Yes. But let's more closely look at the question, or rather, what the context is that we're talking about, along with why this subject can cause...

political frustration no matter which side of the aisle we're on. In the 1970s and 80s, sociological and psychological views of sex and gender came to have a more nuanced understanding of sexuality. We began to move away from treating being gay or transgender not like a disease, but rather as something we are born as and can't choose.

Not only did this new outlook from the medical community provide support and care for those LGBTQ, but positive views from everyday people towards gays seemed to slowly increase, even if gradually, towards acceptance. Along the same time period, doctors, therapists, and health practitioners also had a detangling of the words gender and sex.

where sex and gender used to be used interchangeably. Instead, sex would be used to talk about sexual organs and gender would be used to address the mental states, namely among a spectrum of masculine or feminine so that we can use man and woman. Hence, a trans man is a man because although they are biologically a female, their gender identification is that of a man or the masculine.

I'd like to put a pin in this point because I think it's where the crux of some of the negative reactions come from.

Why is someone changing what seemed to work perfectly fine? Such as XX=woman, XY=man? Well, I put forward two arguments. Number one, language is a self-evolving human construction. And two, this purposeful detangling, to use that word again, helps transgenders re-assimilate and function better in society. Language is indeed an ever-evolving human social construct.

by its nature. New words and changes to meanings happen all the time.

That is for good reason. English evolved from a mixture of West Germanic, French and Spanish came from Vulgar Latin, and sometimes words or definitions are different depending on whether the crowd are subject matter experts or not. Scientists use the word theory to mean something well-tested like germs, evolution, and gravity. Someone at the bar may use the word theory to tell someone who's going to win the latest sports ball game.

Dictionaries can be useful sometimes, though it depends on which one we're using. A sociological and psychological manual will differ from a regular dictionary, which records everyday usage of words based on their popularity, but it's also adding new ones. Do your grandparents know that eating something is throwing it? Most likely not.

Thus, I'm not looking for language police. If you've used a word your entire lives to mean something, it may not be comfortable to change one's view. Or maybe you at least want an explanation for why we want to understand sex and gender as separate entities. Fair question. So my second argument is that by understanding sex via organs and gender,

The mind has allowed for greater quality of life for transgender people. One of the main reasons for having this separation has allowed transgender people to express themselves in a way in which their body matches their brain. Normally, this would come from a disorder that we'd call gender dysphoria.

Gender dysphoria sometimes can be seen as a mental illness, but a mental illness is really anything that deals with a lack of functioning. 15 seconds. So let's help our transgender brothers and sisters out. The point of transitioning or gender-reforming care gave transgender people the ability to came and be their best selves, which makes them healthier, better functioner members of society. So our trans men, I would say that by and large,

Biology and lay dictionaries are good starting grounds. This allows us to know certain things like the correlation of sexes towards gender usage in society, especially culturally, but to only focus on them while we miss the psychological and sociological meanings that we're using when we say a trans man is a man.

is to misunderstand the conversation that we're having all together. But I'm looking forward to us discussing that.

tonight. Thank you. All right. We were a little bit freelancy with the time there, a little loosey-goosey guys, but that's all fine. That's all good. Hopefully you all are having fun in the live chat. Hit the like button if you haven't had a chance to do so. How long has that been looking at me, guys? Honestly, if you haven't had a chance to check out our lens fundraiser in the description, I'm just joking. You guys can't see it, but there's a lens staring at me. I'm

to the side. So yeah, if you haven't checked out our fundraiser for the lenses, do so. James is going to be touring and he's going to need some fancy dancy lenses to...

Do whatever that was that Amy was just doing. I don't know if that was the right, I don't know. All right, so we're going to head into open discussion. Yeah, once again, smash that like button. We're going to do Q&A at the end, everyone. So the sooner you get a super chat in, the further up on the priority list you'll be. So enough out of me. Let's get to the speakers. Everybody off mute. Let's get into open discussion. I'm going to hand it over to, well, I'm going to, let's get quick in here. Give us some of your thoughts on what you've been hearing.

Yeah, thank you. I just have a question for him. He said that the brain is the best way to understand gender, or only if I heard him correctly. I just have a question. How would he respond to these gender reveal cases? How would he understand those cases? Gender reveal cases. So we're talking about using ultrasound to look at the genitalia of a fetus.

And then when they reveal it with either some sort of like massive explosion that's, you know, occasionally goes viral when it sets fire to the surroundings and that kind of thing. Yeah, exactly. Like blue or pink or whatever. Yeah. I mean, the reality is that gender identity is going to be something that is a self-actualized experience.

A fetus isn't having a self-actualized experience. I think it's okay for most of us to take a look at using technology like ultrasound to see if there are testes present or testes are not present. That's how they do it. They're not actually looking for the penis. They're actually looking to see if the testes have descended or not. And whether they are there or not, that is going to be the thing that determines whether we're going to say that it's male or female.

That's perfectly fine. And then, of course, occasionally they do discover that actually there are problems, that sometimes there's only one testis or they discover some mix of features and that that individual now has an intersex condition, or at least probably is going to have some kind of intersex condition once they're born. Most people are going to identify with their genetic sex. That is something that happens. We know that.

But there are edge cases. That is the thing. And getting to gender identity, that is going to be something that's not based on whether you had testes at the fetal stage or not. It's going to be dependent upon all the events that occur.

up until that you actually have a biological brain that is either male-like or female-like, and that's going to be dependent upon the secretion of testosterone that occurs in the second and third trimester, and then also postnatally, axonotally,

on the brain, but the brain, the testosterone is not actually acting on the brain. Testosterone is being converted to estrogen. And in fact, it's estrogen in a genetic male that is going to cause it to turn into a male-like brain. And so it's a complex set of things that are actually occurring. And so it's not surprising. The brain is extraordinarily complex.

And it's not surprising that we can find variation in those features that would be either typically male or typically female, but occasionally it doesn't always work out that way. And so most transgender individuals, most of their lived experience is that they've always felt as if that they were the wrong gender. And it makes sense. There's good, there's,

The brain grows separately from the penis. It's not growing at the same place. I know some men- We do need a leg lock in here as well. Have some rebuttal. They think with their penis. I know that that's the case, but it turns out that actually the male brain is separate from the penis and that there are going to be brain circuits that are going to be specific to males. Quick, do you want to respond or do you want me to take it? I don't know. I don't want to cut you off.

No, it's okay. I can respond if you want. It's a little long-winded, but sure. I think I just want to introduce why Quick asked the question. So I think it's, I want to make it clear where we're coming from, from this debate. And in my opening statement, I said, when you're arguing over, I mean, this is a verbal dispute, right? We're arguing over the definition of a word at its core. But obviously there can be something more substantive here. And so to us, when you ask us for the meaning of the term, I don't know if you guys agree or not, but when you ask for the meaning of the term, you're asking for how it's ordinarily used.

If you were to ask me what something is, I'm going to tell you how it's commonly used. What do you think it's commonly used as? So do you agree with that point? And then I'll answer your question. Do you agree with that point? No, I don't. Because the thing is, every word, many words can have many different definitions depending upon the context.

That is a fact. Like the word cool, for instance, is a word that means many different things. It is a noun. It is an adjective. It is a verb. And we agree in those different categories. They mean different things depending upon the context. And I would say man or male is well, man especially is one that is it depends on the context and it depends on what we're talking about.

Okay, so we agree that you can use terms in many ways that we agree with. But do you at least agree with the point that when you're talking about, especially a politically heated debate like this, when you're talking about the meaning of a term, that number one, it's a good starting point to talk about common usage. Because when you want to, and if you agree with that, because if you agree with that, you're asking a large part of society to sort of change the way that they use their semantics for a minority group.

Okay, I don't actually think that we are asking a large part of society to change their semantics for a minority group. You tell me what you think the common usage is for the word man. What is your definition? Yeah, so our argument, well, we can provide a provisional- I think I heard it in your argument, but go ahead and say it again. A working definition, a provisional definition we offered in the opening was an adult human male, but I think largely- Okay, okay, but that's just three words, an adult human male, right? Okay, that's four, I guess, if you count and. Right.

Adult, human, male. Okay. What is male? But I was continuing with that. So if I can finish my point, I think it's a very lazy way to approach language as just having a definition dispute. And I think you would agree, as you kind of mentioned. Absolutely. Yeah. It's an extremely lazy way to, especially because language can be ambiguous, right? So-

Our point is that it's better to talk about the concept and what the concept is applied to and how it's referred to. And what we could do, I think, is best is go through cases in which people use that language. I brought up men's sports. Quick brought up a gender reveal. So essentially he's saying if gender is psychological and social in nature or people refer to it that way, are they referring to it in this sense or is this the biological sense? Well, you tell me what you mean by male. Let's start there. I'm not sure how that's relevant with what I said.

It's entirely relevant because it's a third of the words that you use to identify what man means. So I don't actually know what you mean when you say adult. I want to know what you mean when you say adult human male. Okay, go ahead. Quick, why don't you try? What is male? Yeah, I can give you a provisional definition. Something about... Sure, sure. So we can say something about...

the genitalia for now. Okay. So a male has what, a penis? Is that what you're saying? Yeah, usually that's, I mean, that's a provisional definition. Let's go with that. I think that's sufficient. So if you remove the penis from a man, does that man cease to be a man? Is he no longer a male? I don't think always, right? It gets tricky with that, right? Yeah. Okay. Tell me a case where if you have someone who was born with XY chromosome arrangement, they had testicles,

Testes through development, when they were born, they identified as a little boy. They grew up. They went through puberty. They have a nice thick beard. And then all of a sudden, they're working at the lumber mill because they're a big, strong man and a saw cut off their dick. Okay. Are they no longer a man? Tell me a case where that isn't when they're no longer a man, when they lose their penis. Yeah, arguably in that case, they might still be a male. But I don't see what –

Locke, what do you think? Is that still a man or not? Just to be clear. Just to be clear. That case, you agree that's not most transgender cases, right? We're trying to get to the definition of what a man is. You guys are struggling. No, the whole point is that even if we don't have the exact definition, it will still exclude most transgender people. That's our whole argument. Do you see what I'm saying? Let's get Amy in here. No, I don't. Amy's trying to get in, so let's let Amy in.

Thank you. No, I would actually put emphasis here because if it's cut off, what we're really focusing on is what's happening in the brain. And that's really where the focus comes back to with transgender people is we're really dealing with brain states. Okay. I'm okay to shift the conversation this way, but just to make a general point about language. Again, as I mentioned in my opening statement, it's not fun to play definition game because it's not actually telling you about the entirety of the concept. So that's why I'm...

I agree. We're trying to figure out what you mean by the concept. You have a concept of what man is, and you've said it's an adult male, adult human male. And Quick came in to say, okay, well, what he means by male is something that has a penis. Like if it has a penis and it's obviously human, therefore it must be a man. But if you remove the penis from a man, is it no longer a man?

Right. So just to be clear, just to be clear, that was a sufficient condition. You understand what I mean? It wasn't a necessary condition, right? So I was just giving you a sufficient condition. The whole point we're trying to make is that

definitions and concepts, and that's why she gave the example of knowledge, right? It's hard to, if you play this game, it's always hard to define things, right? But it doesn't mean that there isn't a biological notion of it. Our whole argument is that if you start analyzing the concept properly, you'll notice that it's almost certainly using a biological concept, and that will exclude most trans people. That's kind of our argument, right? So what's going to end up happening in this debate is you're going to give these age cases, which is what you did, and you kind of ignored our case, which is a clear case

of the gender reveal party. You totally dodged it, by the way. I'll respond to that after that. I actually don't know if gender reveal is all that relevant. I mean, it's kind of relevant, but I thought we were talking about adults. I'll actually tie it all together. It's where the language is sloppy and that's the confusing thing is that technically speaking, it would be a sex reveal party. You probably...

don't want to say that when we're talking about children. So they say a gender reveal party as we don't know what their gender is going to be, but we have a 99% chance. So we're going to use blue or pink. So we're going to pick these buckets. And I think someone who has a gender reveal party for pink, they might years later, turns out that they're a blue and it turns out they had the wrong gender for that person. Uh,

Is that a good response? Anyone like to? Yeah, so I would go ahead. If you want to go ahead quick. Sorry. Go ahead. Oh, it's all good. So I would say if that's the case, then they should use the future tense. Right. So if you if you're unsure at the current moment, whether they're a boy or female, because you're saying let's say it's a social definition. Right. Then the fetus doesn't satisfy currently the social definition.

rather than given how English grammar normally works, you would say something like, you should say, "It will most likely be a boy," right? But they say it is a boy because so the most obvious-- I agree with you, but I think that happens culturally because it's just easier. It's because people don't want to have like birthday cards that say like, or cars that say, "Most likely this person is going to be a woman. Please come to see."

Right. Yeah. Like you guys are asking for I mean, you have this expectation that somehow people who support trans causes are would want a gender reveal party to include this like inclusive language that like, oh, you're most likely ninety nine point nine percent likely to end up being the gender that actually matches the what was seen on the ultrasound when we looked for your gonads. I mean, like no one is actually asking for those things.

Right. We're talking about adults, first of all. So we're talking about men. Right. So I don't even know how gender reveal is tied to this because we don't say like, oh, it's going to be a man when it's born. It's going to be a boy or a girl. Right. Yeah. Quick point is so this is the thing. So we're trying to actually figure out what people mean when they use gender terms. So that's that's what we're doing. So we can move to women's sports if that's men's sports, if that's easier. But the point about the gender reveal, because there's gendered language, obviously, boy, girl, the

The point of that example is to show or at least analyze how people are using the term. Okay, so I'm just saying if it's not in a biological view or sense of the term, then I don't know what's being said. Right. And in gender reveal, they say it's a boy, not it's a man.

No, right, right. Right, they don't actually use the term man, which is what we're talking about. Yeah, but that's a minor nitpick. I'm just saying. No, but just because, just because, that's because boy is, that's the age difference, right? But that's not what we're interested in. We're interested in the concept, because you agree a boy is a young man, right? You agree with that, right? A young man? No, I mean, some boys are. I actually wouldn't call like a little baby a young man.

Okay, well, that's fine. I mean, what I'm just trying to say is- I would call it a little boy. The difference between a man and a boy isn't the difference in their gender, right? It's age, but man, right. We're talking about three things. Adult, we all agree that at least men are human, right? So at least there's a third of your working definition that we're comfortable with.

And then we're still working on the part male, which as far as Quick says, it's they must have a penis. At least that that's the sufficient condition to know that they are male. Which is not must. Must contradicts that statement. So it's not must have it. Right. So not must. But if they had a penis at some point, then they are considered a man. Is that right? Correct. Yeah. So but if they lose the penis, then they're still considered a man.

So it's sufficient but not necessary. Is that what you're saying? Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Go ahead, Amy. No, go ahead, Amy. You've been trying to talk. I want to bring up a question to you both that I think utilizes the way that we're using gender. I think we've actually used it for many years. It just may not

be at the forefront of our minds. Let me use the example. Some people say, "I have a man cave."

Now, I would really put a pinpoint just like we were talking about biology. It doesn't mean that the cave has an XY chromosome or that it's got genitals, but they're culturally saying that it has all of these things that we would normally correspond to a man. And so it's just a quick, funny way of saying this is my man cave. Can a woman have a man cave? Yes, it's these just types of...

Oh, it looks like you're about to say something quick. No, go ahead. And so I would also not only you would I use that reference, but I'm going to ask you to this question. What does it mean to be a man? And I asked that because it could be biological, but I know someone could say that to their child and say, be a man. What does it mean to be a man? Do you want to respond quicker me?

You can go ahead on this one because I've been talking. Okay. So I want to make at least a general distinction here. So I don't think that when we're trying to figure out what a man is, that we're going to use how the

So there's a difference, right? If you're trying to figure out what a man is, you don't look at men's clothing and try to grasp what the concept is of man from men's clothing, right? The same could be said for men's products, things like that. When you're using the term in an adjectival sense, then that's different, right? So that's, I'm not really sure what you're getting at, like a man cave, that's not going to tell me what the concept of a man is. It just might tell me some social implications of what like men generally do. You're, oh.

But sorry, did you want to respond to that? I didn't hear. Yes, I agree that it's not going to tell you what a man is. What I would say is it's a usage of this type of gendering of language that I think we do naturally. A ship captain may say, you know, this is my ship, Sarah.

And it's not that they have the biological necessity to be gendered. It's that we just tend to culturally use female names for ships. And we have things like a man cave, this type of usage that I think bleeds over, if not is really what we're trying to hint at when we say,

a trans man is a man. It's not what they're saying, "Oh my goodness, they changed their chromosomes." I'm not saying you're saying that. But it's not that so much of a change of biology, it's a recognition of the social situation. They are so socially masculine and we only seem to have these two buckets in Western society. So we're just going to say trans man, trans woman,

Let's go on with life. I know that was a life a lot. And I don't know. I do want to respond to that. When I shared my screen, did that mess things up? I don't know if that. No, I grabbed it. I saw that you were doing that. I don't know. I don't know exactly how this is going to go over. But let's see what you're trying to go through. I did want to respond to Amy, though, because she just made a point. Sure. Yes, of course. Yeah, yeah. We can continue first.

for sure. Okay. Along that sort of dialogue. So let's just take as an example, I gave men's products. Like to me, at least, I don't think looking at men's products and what that means is going to really tell me about the concept of a man. It might hint towards certain things, but I don't think that's going to tell me that the concept of man includes men's products. So

And this relates to the man cave example. So very similarly, you could think about age-based products, right? So there's certain, I think there's men's lines and women's lines where they have like above 50 products. Like if you have gray hair and you want to dye your hair, like let's just imagine that there's a product, it's a dye product and it's like 50 plus, right? For older people or something like that.

So when I look at that and when I think about that, to me, it doesn't change or turn the concept of what age is, right? Age, I mean, I associate age with the biological thing, right? It's like a biological related concept. So I don't think that now because there's age related products or age related ways of kind of using the term socially, that that means that age is now a social concept. Do you guys kind of get the point I'm making here? I get the point that you're making. I disagree with it. Okay, age is something that's quite empirical, right? And there's no ambiguity about that.

You are an age because it's dependent upon when you were born, and that changes from day to day in a very empirical way. The concept of man and masculineness is something that actually is ambiguous and vague to some degree, right? Because it isn't necessarily...

something that's easily quantifiable, like the example that I showed, like a biological difference such as height is one way that you might be able to tell that someone is a man versus a woman. But for instance, Ben Shapiro is an incredibly small, short man who certainly identifies as a man. I take his word that he's a man despite his relatively high register. I'm sure that he's a man.

But he's also very short. So we can't necessarily use just a suite of biological features that define this. So when you're applying your concept of adult human male, so I don't know, Ryan, if you would be willing to share this. So I've got up on my screen little quiz. I'm hoping. Yeah. Okay, great. So which of these are men? So I'll respond to that. But so just to be clear on our view, right, there's going to be a correlation between how you look

and your biological facts, right? - Gotcha. - So, like, the best case I can give you is, I'm trying to, like, think of, I'm not trying to be controversial, but, like, you have cases where, you know, it's very sad, but, like, people end up learning, they end up looking at a woman, like a military person, it's kind of a common case where, like, a military person, they end up looking at a woman, and they end up finding out they think they're a woman, you know, they think they're a female, let me use the biological term, right? And then they learn afterwards, right,

that their sex is different than the way you're using the word, their gender, quote unquote gender, right? And they get very angry. So my position is that we can skip the game, right? Because what I'm going to say is many of these people will probably correlate whether they're actually matched to sex or not. Oftentimes we correlate sex

the social facts with the biological facts right so it turns out that if you look yeah so that's kind of my view yes but there are edge cases and the thing is like we we make these exceptions for intergender for like you know intersex people but intersex is different i wouldn't say intersex is all that different like for instance okay quick do you think that people with kleinfelter syndrome are intersex

Yeah, I think they're intersex, exactly. Why do you think that they're intersex? Tell me, why don't you explain to the audience what Klinefelter syndrome is? So from my understanding, they have an extra chromosome, right? Correct, yeah. So they have an extra X chromosome. And the thing is, yes, most people with Klinefelter syndrome don't actually know they have Klinefelter syndrome. I wouldn't say most, but many of them don't. Did you know that? Yeah.

I didn't know that, but my point is-

And what we have found in studies of just transgender individuals, we just evaluate genetic makeup of transgender individuals, that people who have Klinefelter syndrome are 10 times more likely to show up in those screening studies.

than they are to just show up in the general population. So if you're a Klinefelter syndrome, you're likely to show up as transgender. So they have a penis, because they have a Y chromosome, they have an S or Y, which defined that there was a testis, but they also will have certain female-like features and they will tend to score cognitively somewhat female-like, but they only identified as transgender. But then they also found out, oh, actually, I'm also Klinefelter syndrome. Yeah.

Yeah, so that's totally fine. Just to be clear. You agree most trans people don't have Klinefelter syndrome? I agree that most trans people don't have Klinefelter syndrome, but I also think that most trans people have some undescribed biological feature which explains...

their gender identity. That is my position. But it isn't something that's completely just socially prescribed. That's totally fine. Obviously, it might be the case that if you look at the random data sets, right, and you end up looking at it, it might be the case that there's some statistical facts such that most transgender people have some weird statistical anomalies such that they're different than the average. If you play the game, we can play the game. My only point being that, like, look,

The case you're giving, and this is my whole point, is the case you're giving is an edge case, right? You're giving a case of Klinefelter's, but you're trying to argue, and this is the whole point of the debate, is we're trying to argue about the most common case. Most trans people aren't Klinefelter's syndrome, right? Transgender is the edge case. They are an edge case. They make up less than 1% of the entire population. One second there, fellas. Just one second. So just because you still have the screen share up, there's a way that you can move through your example here. How many of these people are men?

I just actually don't think it's fair for the people watching for us to engage in this game. And I'll just explain why really quick and I'll let Dr. Chris respond. So again, if we're debating if age is a biological or mainly a social concept and he pulls up on the screen a bunch of people, some people look old and they're not actually 50. Some people have wrinkles. They're not actually 50. And then there's people above 50 that have Botox. That's not actually telling me anything about what we're talking about. So this is extremely relevant. I don't want to answer, to be honest. What do you think? Are these men?

If you saw these people on the street, would you say that they're men? Yeah, so exactly what you said, right? It's just like there's a correlation between age and how you look. There's a correlation, right, between how you look, like wrinkling, and age. There's a correlation between how you look and your gender, right, or sex or however you want to – right. But what we're trying to say is precisely – and that's why I gave the example of the military cases, right? If you did learn that they had, let's say, a penis, right?

then you would be shocked. So what often happens is that we're never gonna have perfect information. So often we don't know their genitalia. So we have to use imperfect data, like how they look to guess what their genitalia is. And precisely because of that, that's why I said they gave a case like military, it's a sad case, but oftentimes military people get very angry. There's sad stories where they go to Philippines or there's these cases where they end up learning that their genitalia doesn't match

with a with matches their their appearance and they get angry right but on your view that doesn't make sense right because on your view you would say well if they look like uh you know let's say a female or a male then that's what it is right but

But they have the opposite assumption, right? The way they're thinking is precisely that they look at their secondary sex characteristics, right? They say how they look and they say, oh, well, from that, I can reason that they have this certain genitalia. And when they learn that it's not true, they get very angry, right?

I don't know what you're talking about. Listen, when I go out into the world, I'm not thinking about people's genitalia when I see them. I mostly am just focusing. Like if I want to think about what gender they are, I look at their overall gender expression and how they are looking to express themselves to the world and how they carry themselves.

I'm not thinking like, oh, well, that person must have a penis. Like, I don't think of it that way. Let's end the screen share for now. It doesn't sound like we're – Well, no, hold on because I want to reveal that just before you go. So half these people are trans men.

Can you guess which ones are trans men? Just by the look of them. I feel like you didn't listen to my response. Yeah, I did listen to your response. But these are the trans men. Do you mind at least just giving me an interpretation of what you thought I said and why this is irrelevant? Yeah.

You feel that it's irrelevant because some you talked about how age can vary and you can't just tell someone's age by just the way that they look. And apparently you can't use the word men to describe just based on the way they look either. That so why how can you tell me that you are that you know that you're looking at a man?

- That was a close, that was close. - How would you know? So when you're in the world and you see people that look like this, how do you know if they're men or not? - That's a separate question, right? That's a totally separate word. - It's what we're talking about. It's exactly what we're talking about. - We're not asking you to speak. - We're talking about the common use of the word man. If I'm out in the world and I see people that look like this, I think that they're men. - Just to be clear, just to be clear. - You think that these are women.

Right. Just because these are women. Right. Just because it's because it's right. The guy on the right on the upper right, that's a woman. That's totally fine. But you agree that we can't. I don't think so. I think that that's a man.

No, but that's only because – wait, wait, wait. That's fine. That's fine. But just to be clear, you believe that we can be mistaken, right? So let's say I have a certain set of data, right, and I can be mistaken about my beliefs, right? This is the whole argument, right, is that if the new data – on your view, right, if I learn their genitalia, right, it would be irrelevant, right? Do you agree with that?

You see my point? No, I don't actually, because I think that when we're talking about the way people use man or woman, that they actually are talking more about overall gender expression. Yes. Not whether they have a penis. Can I answer your question when I think you're asking? All right. I will stop sharing now. Go ahead.

would like to separate out two social situations and I think they are both relevant and they just have different layers of nuance one I would say is pronouning I think pronouning comes a lot from secondary sex characteristics

It is, I think, really what Dr. Chris was hinting at, is that we don't really have this barometer. We can't just potty police or things like that where we can figure out on our day-to-day lives we don't check out genitals. I will give you the caveat, which I'm thinking, when you have that revelation, when the data becomes relevant and you're talking about dating people,

then I think you do have another layer of, okay, I like feminine people,

as opposed to masculine people, but I like a specific set of genitals. And it's not that, you know, I dislike or am attracted. You may have breasts or thighs or thinking that you may find attractive, but the genitals are not to what you are attracted to. I think it's perfectly fine at that point to say, look, it's not what I'm into.

I still view you as a woman. It is just that I am into biological women.

And I think it's by separating out these two social situations, by then treating that transgender woman of transgender with respect and pronouning them properly. I think that is a way that you separate out sex and gender and I guess kind of have a variety of levels because most people aren't going to show off their genitals. We utilize gender, I think,

90 plus percent of the time, but then there's going to be times in social situations where sex is relevant. Again, that was a lot, but I'll hand it right back over. In your example where you were talking about the sort of dating preferences where the guy's like, yeah, I'm into women, but I'm into biological women, you're still a woman. I'm just curious in what sense is the person you're giving in your hypothetical a woman? In their own gender identity. So that person could say, well,

Look, I can't change the way you feel. That transgender woman's still gonna feel feminine. They're still gonna go about their day, I think, interacting with most people under the feminine label. But then when it came to that one social situation, they were not the type of person. People are gonna have body types. People are going to have, you know, as long as we're doing things legal, doesn't matter if you're 21, 50, 75, whatever you're into, you're

but those are all going to become personal preferences to individuals. And I think that is another nuanced conversation from just going up to someone, let's say in the workplace, knowing that they don't like a specific pronoun, again, not giving examples from here, but, and then using that pronoun over and over again to harass someone. I think there's

a big difference between that sort of what I would call office harassment, especially if they're doing it knowledgeably and trying to go after them. And someone saying, look, this isn't what I'm into. Right. I have two, kind of two questions for you. Number one, let's just grant that there's a lot of confusion with the language because it feels like, right, we're talking about, it feels like we're talking about two different concepts, right? Because we just aren't meeting each other. So why not use it? My first question is,

If the way that we're using it is how it's been historically and commonly used, right? As I said, largely a biological concept. If you want to disagree, we could go through cases. Amy, if you agree that historically it's generally been used in a biological sex-based sense, then my question is, why not use a different sound for the concept you're trying to express? That's my first question. To cause less confusion, you can disambiguate the semantics. My second question is...

if the person you're hypothetical has, again, a feminine social archetype, so that's why the trans woman identifies as a woman. I'm just curious under Chris's view, if it were the case that you found out that she doesn't have a female-like anatomy, would she still be a woman? So I would say that the biological usage that we are using modern day is mostly gender. But I would say that it is okay to accept that definition,

But it's going to cause confusion as we try to incorporate transgender people into society. I will use the example that I wish... Well, no. Before I give an example, I believe that it has changed in the experts, the medical practitioners' usage in the dictionary. So...

from a psychological, sociological, I would even say within most biological undergrads and grads, they teach this new definition that I think stems from the 70s and 80s, looking at a new way of talking about gender. In lay conversation, when you say, go to the boys section, I want to go buy my son clothing, well then...

we're using that type of language that we may just think is tied to sex. Okay. I thank you for answering the question. The second one I did have on the table though, is just, and Dr. Chris was able to answer as well, um, under the view that someone, and let's bring it back to men because the conversation is trans men, right? So, um, just switch your hypothetical to it being a trans man. He identifies as a man and he fits the, you know, social masculine archetype, whatever that means culturally, um, just in the West, for example, but you were to find out that, um,

their brain anatomy and physiology and all the relevant things that Dr. Chris is saying relates to gender identity actually just matches up with the one of their biological sex. Are they still valid in saying that they are trans? Are they valid in saying they are a man? So they are someone of the biological sex that has a different gender or? So it's a biological female, but they're reporting that they are a man in every way. Like they're physically meeting the masculine, but they're just a man.

Okay, but I'm curious because I want to know because I heard that gender identity, it sounded like Dr. Chris is really pushing the point that gender identity is regulated by the brain. So I'm curious if the brain structure that the person has in my hypothetical, is that of a biological female and their reproductive system, everything is out of a biological female, are they valid in saying they're a trans man? I would say if their brain states...

overwhelmingly masculine, that they have this identity of being a man, I would say they are a man. Because at that point, we're not using the biological language, we are using a social definition. Okay.

Okay, you said brain states. So here's the thing that I don't know if you're using those together, like brain states, right? So let's say you go to Dr. Chris's hypothesis where he's talking about there's certain anatomical structures of the brain and that's correlated with certain sexes. So you might see under his view that a trans man is likely to have certain parts of the brain that match that of a biological man. That's a hypothesis being put forward. Okay. So my question is though, um,

They don't have that right so the trans man the biological female doesn't have brain states that match those biological males. However, they have the desire right there the reporting a psychological desire to you that they feel like a man. So under your view I'm just curious, are they actually a trans man are they man. Yes, because a trans man I would say is.

At least by our definition, it is when you are having a differing gender from what is normally associated with your sex. The vast majority of males have a masculine man sex. The same is true of females, but there is going to be a small amount of people that have a difference.

Okay, Dr. Chris, can I? Yeah, yeah, I was gonna bite you and quicken but I'm curious, do you endorse that answer or do you have a different answer? Um, yeah, I do actually endorse what Amy's saying but for slightly different reasons. So, the, I don't think that there's going to ever be a

a universal telltale way of evaluating just sizes of brain structures that will directly correlate with overall gender identity. We have plenty of evidence to indicate that those individuals who have trans, who express gender dysphoria or are transgender, that they have features that are intermediate between male and female. There's plenty of studies that show that.

However, there's variability and there's variability across brains, whether you're talking about just within males or just within females. I already talked about that, how you can have some males who have brains that are smaller than the average female and some females that will have the brains that are larger than the average male.

Um, so there's enormous variability. And then also it's not so much about brain size, even though that's the easiest thing that we can access using things like fMRI or PET scanning. Uh, it's going to be how these things work together. So fMRI can get into some of the functionality, but it's not going to give us, um, the fine microstructure and exactly how these brain circuits are working. We're just not going to have that level of, um, detail, uh,

I don't think ever. It just isn't going to happen. So that just because we find an individual who happens to have some brain structures that looks so let's say we're talking about a trans man, they have some brain features that look more female like than the typical trans man which would be intermediate between men and women we already talked about that we've already looked at those data.

We haven't looked at it. Obviously, we're not able to have an empirical dispute. You know that, right? Like with a limited time, we're not able to go through data. But just to break up. I've got the studies here if you want to. I don't think we have time to go through that data. Well, maybe you and I can visit at some other point. We can discuss it. That would be great. But like with the case I gave, so they are, they are, right? So in that case, I would still say that there's probably something happening biologically that we just cannot read out as just overall size of a particular brain area. Okay. That something is going on within that brain. Okay. Yeah, wait, so...

I'm lost in, right? Because, okay, so you're saying the brain state, if all you're claiming is that the brain state is a correlation, right, then we can grant that. Yeah. Maybe that's fine, right? Because that's a different issue, right? Because I thought you were trying to say something like if X has a certain brain state, then X is a woman. Because what we're trying to say is there might be a correlation between X

claiming to be transgender in a certain brain state, right? But as long as you acknowledge that there are edge cases, there are cases where someone, on your view, somebody could be a man and not have that brain state, right? Then this whole empirical stuff is just irrelevant.

The problem with brain states... Oh, no, go. No, no, go ahead. Well, the problem with a lot of this argument is it becomes truly hard to get into... I mean, from both sides, it's truly hard to get into other people's brains. And so the best we could do sometimes is do neurological scans. But a lot of it is through lived experience,

We try to find things out a lot of time going through therapy, trying to make sure the person really does have gender dysphoria and it's not something else. I wanted to ask either of you an important question. I believe that we actually gain and become a more complex, sophisticated society because

by having this nuanced definition separating sex and gender. My question to you, what is it that we lose in accepting this definition? We lose clarity in language, right? We lose semantic clarity. That's kind of actually your whole point. Yeah, I don't know.

My little quiz showed that we do not lose that. When I respond, just to be clear across the board and be fair, right? When I respond, assume I'm going to give an explanation. So I was going to continue with kind of the point and the argument that we've been giving in our opening statement, which is that when you have people that are using the terms in different ways,

Okay, there's naturally going to be confusion because language is ambiguous. I think you guys agreed with that point. So with that being said, you could take two options. You can continue to have confusing language, right? And we can go through cases, which is what I was hoping we'd do. Let's go through sports. Let's go through how people use the term. You can offer cases where people use the term in a social or psychological way that's not related to biology. And you can prove us wrong that common usage is in favor for you. That's totally fine. But the point is, right, there's going to be confusion.

Or you can just disambiguate the semantics, right? Which is what I propose. Why not just disambiguate the semantics and co-opt? Why co-opt the sound man and make it more confusing? Yeah. Well, I can explain that. One of the things I was rushing through in my intro, but one of the things I really wanted to finish on is that I wished we sometimes lived in this sort of

postmodern world where there could be someone who was born a man, identifies as a man, has a beard, and yet they can wear lipstick and a dress and be fantastic and come out and everyone would accept them. My problem is, as far as Western society is concerned, we really only have a few buckets. And so by just

I would say having the separation, it allows transgender people to more easily assimilate and ultimately function in society. And when mental illness is a concern, and when we are talking about functioning, every step that we can take to help people function in a society is

helps lower or if not eliminate mental illness.

Okay, I have an example for you and either of you guys can engage with this but let's think about when we use gender language with dating preferences. So when people say, okay, I am attracted to men. Okay. And let's just say that you have a person who is using the biological definition, and they're speaking to a person who's using more of a trans inclusive definition, just take for example, a social view. So, when this person says I'm heterosexual I like woman, take it that you have, you know, a trans woman and then they say,

okay, great. You like me, right? I'm a woman. I'm in that concept. And then they're like, well, well, no, I mean, I don't like you. I like women. And by that, I mean a biological concept. Number one, that's just an example of confusing semantics, right? That's an example of confusion. And number two, we all know that that bleeds into other negative social implications, right? Maybe that person's now viewed as a bigot. Maybe they're viewed as transphobic, which is language that's commonly used, right? Against certain people that have a different notion than you do. So why not disambiguate the semantics? So I,

agree with you in one way i would just handle it differently i agree that we can't force you know you you and dr chris and brown fox myself we all can't choose who we are attracted to and we shouldn't have a burden from other people to be judged whether that is just straight heterosexual

And so whether that is straight, heterosexual and only liking biological, I want to go as big tent for the people who are other side. That is OK. And I know sometimes there's going to be maybe there will be an LGBTQ person that disagrees with me, but I don't think many would. I think that.

We want everyone to feel comfortable. And so this is actually trying to make more people feel comfortable. And I think while you have a point in that it could, especially early on, cause confusion, I think that's why we're having this debate. I think that's why we're having these conversations is the only way to eliminate that confusion is to dialogue.

dialogue and figure out what we're meaning. I think sometimes, you know, we're talking from this is what medical community says here, but this is what 90% of people in the lay audience are saying here. And I actually think both sides are important. We have to figure out how to tie those together. But I think

What we lack in semantic clarity and in trying to overcome that confusion, I think that by having this again, this separation, it allows us to be more open

and allows more people to feel more accepted in society. Okay. I just have a clarifying question to what you just said, and I'm totally okay to mute and let the other two go at it. So my first question is, because I'm curious, when people say I'm attracted to men or I'm attracted to a man, what do you think they mean? Just commonly, how do you think people are using that term? I think generally...

They are talking about the secondary sex characteristics. They're talking about, I like long hair. I like big breasts. I like a tight chest. Now, there could be someone very specifically saying, look, I'm saying that because I like Dilla Dong or I like the JJ. But I honestly think that in a...

Lay cultural way we're talking more about those secondary sex characteristics than we are talking about the main second sex characteristics. Right. Certainly not talk like when someone says that they're attracted to say a man they're not saying that they're attracted to their chromosomes. I agree. I agree but I think in most cases yeah go ahead. Okay.

- Yeah, I think, and that's why I gave those examples, right? Because those clearly contribute. 'Cause if that's the case, right? And they had the impression, so that's why I gave those examples of like I said, I'm not supporting these cases, but like, you know, cases where people have like, you know, usually it's like the military, but there's other cases where it's like a man has the impression that this transgender woman is a biological woman. And then they learned that they're transgender, right?

They tend to react, you know, not the way that on your hypothesis they would react, right? So, like, we can ask that question, right? You know, thinking predictively, we could say, on your view, right, it doesn't matter that she didn't kill you, right? So, if I'm a man and I learn that this person I thought was a biological female ends up not being a biological female and ends up being somebody else, it shouldn't matter, right? Because that was never my concept in the first place, right? I see.

Right, but sadly they end up... Can I, do you mind if I jump in, Amy? And then I'd like to follow up with you quick on what your original concept was.

So, yeah, you know, I I I'm agreeing with Amy in that, you know, the vast majority of cisgendered heterosexual individuals are going to be wanting to be matched with other cisgendered heterosexual individuals. And I think that that's OK. You know, if they don't want to be, say, with someone who is transgender, hopefully they're doing that in a sensitive way that is respectful to that population. Right. Like it's an aggrieved thing.

minority group right now, and we need to treat them with respect. And the political climate is one that is really suppressing that entire group right now. And I think almost every transgender individual would say, that's perfectly fine. We're not all going to match up in exactly the way that would

be allow for the definition of man and woman like it's okay to have that subtle nuance that okay i am looking for for instance i'm a heterosexual cisgendered man i prefer the company of uh women i've never been with a trans woman um i never even had the opportunity frankly but i prefer i and i would certainly seek out cisgendered women because that is my preference like i'm not gonna

be bigoted towards trans women at all in that respect but that is just my overall preference because that is the kind of genitalia i want to play with and in the end if we're talking about romantic relationships because ultimately that's what it's going to be about now we're getting into the circumstances where genitalia actually is important most of our social interactions don't involve genitalia and so that's kind of why i want to get back to what quick was saying because you were saying that like uh

A penis is a sufficient condition to know that that person was at the very, or is a male, right? Yeah. If they have a penis, then they are a male. Now, are you familiar with the condition congenital adrenal hyperplasia? No. Locke, do you know this condition? No.

I don't think so. I mean, I've heard of it, but I don't know exactly what it is. So individuals congenital adrenal hyperplasia, they have a mutation in the enzymes that are used to produce cortisol, which comes from the adrenal glands.

The problem is cortisol is a steroid hormone like testosterone. And one of the intermediate steps is one of the precursors to testosterone. And they have an enzyme that doesn't allow them, that these fetuses don't have, it doesn't allow them to produce cortisol.

So cortisol doesn't get produced. And instead they get the precursor and the adrenal gland just gets bigger and bigger, bigger because it's not making any cortisol. So that's why it's called hyperplasia gets bigger and bigger and bigger, but because it's getting bigger and bigger, bigger, it's making more of this precursor to testosterone. And eventually the adrenal gland starts to produce a whole bunch of testosterone. So in those individuals who are XX chromosomes, they are females. They actually do have like,

what looks more or less like a vagina, but the clitoris gets masculinized. So they have a penis. Many of these individuals are born with a penis, yet they have XX chromosomes and they also have a pseudo vagina. So is that a man? Yeah, so like I said- By your definition, it's a man, right?

I think it's an ambiguous case. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think what we're going to say. If someone has a penis, therefore they are a man. Right. So just to be clear, just to be clear, what I was saying is that most, I mean, we can, like I said, most of the time, I think that's usually the case. We usually it's pretty clear. So the point we're making, and this is the whole argument we're trying to make and,

Just that we're trying to say is that there are clear-cut cases, right? And again, even if I – let's say I granted your point that this person is a transgender. That wouldn't include most transgender people, right? That's kind of our whole point, right? So this is kind of a common argument. Well, no, just to be fair, just to clarify, because most people who are born congenital adrenal hyperplasia do identify as females. But actually, they have a much greater likelihood of identifying as male.

So, so there's, there's a lot of ambiguity many, most of them do identify as female as, as an adult, right. But they, but many of them do identify as men much more so than the general population. And then also, the vast majority of them, I don't want to say the vast majority but there's a very high percentage of them that also have a homosexual orientation as well.

Yeah, well, like I said, it's totally fine. Like I said, on our view, what we're trying to say is, like I said, most intersex, on our view, what we're trying to say is we can grant that most intersex cases, and this is the whole point that she brought up initially in her opening statement about how you analyze concepts, and it tends to be somewhat tricky, and there's a lot of like,

ambiguous cases, right? I can go through, like, right. But what we're trying to say is that most of the time, though, the examples we're giving precisely are cases where they're very ambiguous. But if you notice the cases we're giving are trying to give cases where it's clear-cut cases, right? So my argument... Right. But what I'm saying, yes, I agree with you. But the thing is, like, yes, and look, if you want to define man as adult human male, I think that that's an okay definition. Like, I don't think that that's

- Really? - An awful definition, but I think you have to understand that it's not gonna be comprehensive. That it's going to have lots of nuance because biology is messy. - That's totally fine. - And getting to gender expression and identity is especially complex. And the case of congenital adrenal hyperplasia is a really great example of that. Here's an individual with X, hold on, let me finish. This is an individual with an XX chromosome arrangement. Because they have a mutation in something completely separate

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It's to synthesize a whole bunch of testosterone and it masculinizes the fetus, including the brain, called...

these individuals to have a pseudo vagina that's largely closed and oftentimes they need surgery to open it up. But the clitoris has turned into a penis. Again, you know, your definition of male was that they have to have a penis. So therefore you would call them males, but they also have a vagina and they have XX chromosomes and they have ovaries. They don't have testes. I feel like we just need to get a little bit clear with the dialogue because we're bouncing around. So our entire point, and let's go back to this, is that

number one, we admitted that concepts are vague. Okay. Concepts are vague. That's the first point. I know you're like, great, but this is relevant. So just hold on. So concepts are vague, right? Language can be ambiguous. And so when you have concepts, right, somewhere in between, and we can look at examples. Okay. We could think of baldness, for example, that's a

popular one that people refer to but it's there's very clear cases when people are bald right if we're having a debate about what's bald or not there's very clear cases in which people are bald there's very clear cases in which people aren't bald is someone with 100 hairs bald right like you keep going and adding a hair and at some point it's vague you're not really sure if someone's bald or not right or how people colloquially use the term can you not screen share while i'm talking is very distracting sorry i didn't realize that you see that okay

So, yeah. You mentioned bald. And so I'm showing a bald man. So my point here is, right, is that

It doesn't say anything about the clear cases, right? Are you now considering what bald means because there's ambiguous cases? No, you can say you know what bald is, you know what bald isn't, and there's some cases in between where you keep trait equalizing, right? Like you could do with the female and male sex. You keep trait equalizing, and then it's going to get ambiguous, and then it'll get clear again. So my question for you, what are the ambiguous cases supposed to tell us about the clear-cut cases and the concepts? Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Exactly. There are clear-cut cases. The vast majority of people are cisgendered. We know that. The vast, vast majority, right? It's greater than 99% is what most studies indicate. And that's okay. That's not my question. That's not my question. Okay. Because you might, you're about to, I think you're going to respond to something that's not my question. So my question was, why are we trying to reason about the concept from only ambiguous cases? Why are we doing that? We are, okay. So we are discussing this concept so that it can be as inclusive as possible.

Why? Why? Yeah, no, why is that to me? So our whole point is... Because it takes into account some of the biological features, right? As I already showed, many transgender individuals have ambiguous brain structures.

Wait, just because the brain, the best readout of what's happening within the brain is going to be their overall expression. Why? Like, do you think that these people are fooling themselves? Like they have the expression of being a gender that doesn't match their overall genitalia from like a very early age. The majority of transgender people feel that way. Like, do you think that like where does that come from?

I don't know if I got it. I'm okay passing this to Quick because I know he wants to say something. Did you answer my question or not? It wasn't clear by your response. So the question was, and we can look at the bald example. Are we able to have a discussion about what's bald and what's not without going to certain ambiguous cases? Do you know what the concept of bald is? No, I don't think we can. You have no idea what bald is? Of course I know what bald is, but I actually think that the ambiguous cases help

define whether someone is bald or not. That's why I was showing George Costanza because there's a whole other... That's not my point, but I'll let Quick... No, yeah. Our point is precisely that... Let's say we grant everything you say about intersex cases, right? You just admitted that most transgender people aren't intersex, right? So the case you're giving, right? The point is specifically...

is the case you're giving are cases where the biology is ambiguous, right? And what we're saying is, look, maybe there are cases like that, right? But that doesn't tell us about most cases, right? And the whole problem is that oftentimes most people, most people, right, are not just cases and they end up claiming they're a woman and that causes a lot of confusion. And we're trying to say- Okay, give me an example of that. How does it cause a whole lot of confusion if someone claims- With the heterosexual example I gave. Yeah.

Yeah, women's sports, right? So, Leah Thomas. Leah Thomas, or I forgot her last name, but you know what I'm talking about, right? The swimmer, right? Yeah, that's it. Leah Thomas, I got it. Yeah, Leah Thomas, right? So, she says to us, she says...

So the way I understood her is she's playing a women's swimming, right? Now, the problem is there is there's an ambiguity about what the word women means there, right? If you grant that if the word women is a biological definition, then she wouldn't be able to play women's swimming, right? That would exclude her. Actually, it depends on how you define biological in that case. Well, okay. Let's just say – let's just pick any definition, either XY chromosome or – Okay, let's take the – no, no, no. How about level of circulating sex? Level of circulating sex hormones. Okay.

No, I think... Oh, why not? I mean, isn't that biological? I'm trying... I've already made the case that it's usually related to something about genitalia, but... I understand, but also, don't you think that there tends to be a discrete correlation between, say, level of sex hormones and genitalia? Yeah, I believe that there's a correlation, right? But I think... Why wouldn't you use hormones? Why wouldn't you use level of hormones? Okay, I don't know if, quick, do you want to respond to this question to you before I make my point? No, you can go. You can go.

He was asking you, I was going to respond to something larger, which is, aren't we talking about... I'm glad you can answer. It's fine. Why don't you answer that question? Is level of sex-storied hormones, the level of circulating sex-storied hormones, a biological concept? Yeah, I think it's a biological concept. Yeah, of course. Could you use that as an example of whether someone is female or male? Or say, man or woman? That's fine. But the point of Leah Thomas' case, though, is, I mean, whether even, I don't know her...

correlation of her thinking right i mean the controversy was just precisely because i mean right you granted that our definition right argument is that our definition would exclude the atomists right that's our whole argument right our definition exclusively atomists right and i already gave you my definition right so uh an arc an argument is that precisely because of that because there's this ambiguity right between our definition your definition right um

it's going to, in these cases like Leah Thomas, it's going to, we have all these weird debates about whether she should be allowed to play or not, right? Because it seems to be pretty clear. We can debate. You can debate this as you want because my view is that most people clearly think that Leah Thomas, I didn't even pollinate on this, right? But Leah Thomas, like women's, and women's sports, that they're very, most people are very clearly on, of the view that

um, Leo Thomas shouldn't be able to swim, right? And, but the reason, the reason there's this whole debate in the first place is precisely because there's ambiguity about language and your intersex cases are irrelevant or totally irrelevant. Even if I granted all your intersex cases, it would still follow that Leo Thomas would not be able to play

It should not be able to swim. And so my whole point is, why are we, the whole problem is that there's this whole ambiguity in language and it's being caused by these activists and they're actually abusing it, right? They're abusing the fact that there's this ambiguity between sex and gender and they often appeal to your cases, right?

of ambiguous cases and it's causing a lot of confusion. So rather, what we should do is either we should disambiguate, I think disambiguating was totally fine. So I'm happy with, for example, the word woman, we could change that to female, right? So from now on, if you change the word woman to female, right?

That would be totally fine with me. My suspicion is, and we can debate this, is that most trans, mostly these activists, would not like that, right? They actually play on the ambiguity. They don't like the fact that we disambiguate sex and gender. Because in my view, women's sports is a very clear case where we're clearly appealing to the biological notion of the term, and I can explain why, right? Yeah, go ahead. I just want to push back on some of these gently. I do not believe that sports...

the bathroom or locker rooms is coming from the LGBTQ or the liberal side. I think these are reactionary movements from transgenders assimilating into society. What happened is the LGBTQ fought for things like gay marriage and transgenders in the military, which has become a political football itself. And what happened was after we started to assimilate or LGBTQ,

Started to assimilate. There were spots in society where I would say liberals and conservatives started to brush up on each other on some of these issues. And so now we have conversations. How should we handle bathrooms? How should we handle locker rooms? How should we handle sports? I agree with you that moving forward, it is a more difficult conversation than going X, Y, Y.

boy, XX girl. I think we have to have that more nuanced discussion because it will eventually, through the pain and burden of us having these debates and discussions, we'll have a more inclusive, more fair system. And I think when we're talking about things like sports, we are talking about fairness. They're saying, don't you want to be fair to biological women? I think that we should all want to be fair no matter who

the gender or the sex. And so I think sports, unfortunately is the most nuance of all of these that we're going to talk about because every sport is different. There's going to be different standards. I think that, you know, when we talk with Leah Thomas, I think she's an interesting example because Leah Thomas was a swimmer. She became famous because she tied Riley gains for fifth, fourth and fifth place. I think that's a weird thing.

benchmark to put because it means that three other biological women beat them both. I have a question about something you said. So I'm curious as to what you think is going on here. Okay. So, and I'm sure you're familiar. You're not going to deny that there are some people that want to advocate for trans women and women's sports and trans men and men's sports. There's some people. Okay. But I have a question. So my follow-up question. Yep. So

We agree that there's people that do that. And so what do you think? I want to ask what's what's going on here. What do you think they're saying that really the deep issue here is that there are some trans men who meet this certain threshold that biological men do. And so it's a fairness thing in that sense. We really want to advocate for these people that meet the certain threshold of biological characteristics to be in the sport. Or do you think the argument is essentially coming from.

trans men are men, right? They fit into this concept of what a man is. And so it's a right for them to play in the sport. Those are two different things. Which one do you think it is? I would say that it's a mix of both of those things. I think there's some people that are going to have a completely different opinion and are going to say, listen, you say trans women are women, you are heterosexual, you better like whatever junk they tell you. I think that

When we utilize sports, I don't think that they may have started it. But sure, there are trans, there are LGBTQ activists, now that it is a political issue, that are going to defend bathrooms, locker rooms, and sports. Do you think it's a bit of both? You think it's a bit of both? Like, you think- So, I think it's-

It's a reaction to a reaction. So the LGBTQ fought very specifically for gay marriage and transgenders in the military. It's the only two issues the LGBTQ has put forward. What happened was conservatives are having a reaction. They're saying, hey, we want to protect our biological women. I'm trying to at least, you know, steel man and are saying we want fairness in women's sports. We don't want anyone being harassed in locker rooms and bathrooms. I think those are

all good things worthy of having conversations. I just want to make sure that while we're doing them, we ultimately are including transgender women and men to ultimately where everyone wins, including the straight, heterosexual, biological people. Okay, I'll give a response. I'm totally able to pass it off to the other people that are waiting. So

we need to, and I'm trying to be as kind of linear as possible. I hate using that term. I am trying to be as, as clear as possible when I ask you a question to really know what your response is, because I want to understand what you're saying. So I guess I'll tell you my, my point here. My point is that I don't think people are saying, well,

This whole, you know, think about trans men and men's sports that the whole heart of the issue is that there really are trans men out there that actually meet this requirement that other men meet. And so it's really fair to make have them not be included. I don't think that's what's going on. I think what's going on is that they want to say they are men, right? There are men, there are men in the relevant concept. And so they should be it's a right for them to play in this category. I don't really think it has anything to do with people just discovering like we are.

okay, they actually meet this threshold of like ability to perform in the same sports. I don't think that's it. That's knowledge that we found out after. I agree with you. There may be actors out there that's saying it's a philosophical notion. We shouldn't even be looking at weight and sex and any sort of factors going into sports. I think that a more honest debate is what factors do we need to look at each sport to

there's sometimes going to be weight categories. There's sometimes going to be, you know, sometimes there's a difference between did they transition young and did they transition later? I hate to make that distinction like that, but there's a whole amount of factors. Sometimes biological women are actually going to have, depending on the sport advantages to biological men, that's probably going to be the minority of sports. However,

I don't think that the main push should be ideological. It should be just take it because, you know, be a good person and just take it on that. I think that we should come together with an understanding both of the biological aspects and the social aspects and figure out how everyone can win. And that may be a much harder conversation. Okay, I'll let the others hop in if they want.

Just to say, I think, Amy, I think we're more in agreement than – so it sounds like – yeah, I think we're a lot more in agreement than it seems maybe people would expect. Because I do agree with you that there is a – we should try to come up with a way where everyone wins. That's kind of my whole perspective is that it seems like we're kind of ignoring the perspective of –

Most people, actually. Can I interrupt to agree with you? Sometimes it feels like we're trying to pick who do we want to lose, and I would rather it not be anyone, if possible. Yeah, so I totally agree with you. I'll push back on a couple points. One is that your assumption is that it was you kind of blame the conservatives, and I've seen this happen, but I think it's the opposite case. And you gave a good example of homosexuals. It's more like liberals...

end up pushing certain rights, right? So sometimes it's fine. You know, homosexuals, sure we can, that's a whole different thing. - Can I make a quick separation?

Sure, go ahead. I will half agree with you. I think that this is a victim of liberals' own success. We got what we wanted, and now there's a reaction, which is a normal thing to happen in society. So here's my thing. I don't think if you told an LGBTQ person you're going to be fighting four bathrooms 10 or 20 years ago, they would have wondered why.

I think now that it is an issue, I think that's where the conversation is going to be centered on. Just why I think sports is such a highlight issue because it takes such nuance for us to solve it. You look like you got something in your mind.

No, no, it's totally fine. Like I said, my position is – I think my position is that precisely – you know, we could debate it. For the most part, conservatives kind of granted the homosexual case marriage, the gay marriage, right? But what happened is that – so the way I understood it is that the case of like let's say bathroom – everyone before like 2000 seems – from what I understand is most people agree that they were excluded, right?

So it was rather that the transgender people were pushing, they kept pushing, just like they pushed for gay marriage, they pushed for the case that they should be able to play women's sports and they should be able to play in bathrooms or whatever you want to say, right? And so it's just the conservatives finally, there was enough popular support against that view, right? Where they said, no, that specific case is just too much. That's just too much. Where I would put, oh no, so... Yeah, I was going to ask. Um...

So, okay. All right. Let me just, because I haven't said a whole lot here about the sports issue. I'd like to chime in saying that I...

agree with Amy and that that probably means that I largely agree with you guys as well, that the, you know, the case with sports and whether trans athletes should be included is a one that's complex, that it really depends upon when transition occurred, what sport we're talking about. I really don't have any problem with trans men competing in men's sports. I don't really see why that that would be an issue.

I get that Glock is concerned that, well, then that means that we're saying that they are men if we include them in men's sports. My concern, I would agree that they're men, at least as far as the sociological concept is concerned. But if we're concerned about fairness and safety, trans men, if they were born biologically female, they're men.

If they went through a typical sort of female puberty, they're not going to have those benefits of having gone through a male typical biological puberty where they did get the muscle enhancement and that kind of thing. Now, if they're getting gender affirming hormone therapy, then they probably do have certain biological features. Like that's what my image that I was showing you before is that many transgender individuals have certain, what we would call biological features, big muscles, big

facial hair, baldness, and it's because of the hormone therapy that they are receiving. Now, does that mean that they are genetically biologically? No, obviously not. The majority of them are going to still be XX. But

What is the problem if they compete in men's sports? I don't see that that's a problem. Now, when we're talking about women's sports, it's a different issue. And that's because a male typical puberty event is going to have masculinizing effects on secondary sex characteristics, which could confer a benefit to the athlete. And I obviously that's the nuance. And so we're talking about Leah Thomas.

I think Amy pointed out something very important that, you know, she ended up tying and then obviously she didn't win all the events that she competed in. And if you compare her events after she went through gender affirming hormone therapy compared to when before she transitioned, her times went way, way, way down because of the demasculizing effects of estrogen and that kind of hormone therapy.

So, but that's still complex and I'm willing to grant that. And I think that it's a debate that, you know, I don't necessarily take a strong position on.

All right. I think we probably should move into Q&A probably pretty soon. We've got a couple of questions that are starting to pour in, but maybe I'll set like a five minute because it seems like you guys are trying to chomp at the bit. So I'll check in with you guys in five. Apologies for laughing. Quick was talking and I didn't know who he was talking to. No, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all good. Yeah, sorry. I was just going to respond to a couple of points because there's all I just remembered. So

Like, for example, Andy brought up, like, fairness, and that's totally fine. But the whole problem is if that's your view, right, then you should agree to –

What Leah Thomas should have done is she should have argued that we shouldn't segregate based on gender, right? She didn't segregate based on whether it's male or female, right? She should segregate based on whether the level of hormones is, as Chris brought up, the level of testosterone you have, right? Yeah, but the point is she didn't do that, right? She specifically, and if you look at the debate, the hormones,

The whole point of the people who let her compete was precisely because they said that she's a woman. So that's the whole point we're trying to say is there's a lot of confusion and a lot of ambiguity because of the fact that we define woman as a woman.

There's an ambiguity between biological and gender. And oftentimes people like Leah Thomas, those people, they abuse that fact. Because to me it's very clear that, because it's very clear, and we can debate that, it's very clear that in the case of women's sports, the reason why we segregated male, man and woman is based on biological facts. And because of that, Leah Thomas, given that definition, given that definition, should not have been able to play women's

women's sports, right? So what Leah Thomas should have responded was not exactly what Amy said, but she didn't do that. She should have responded, right? She should have said, well, let me make a case for why we shouldn't do it based on biological sex or gender or however you want to define it, right? We shouldn't do it based on women. We should do it based on testosterone or different, right?

that that if that was the case we could have a more genuine conversation but the problem is precisely she was able to play she literally was able to play in the sports precisely for the fact that she because the the ncaa and her were arguing that she's a woman but that's obviously complete confusion right because quick so i get what you're saying and you're just kind of repeating what you said before but that's okay um the the

The debate, though, what we're talking about tonight is are trans men men? Leah Thomas is a trans woman, so it's kind of irrelevant. It's related, but irrelevant. Do you think that trans men should be allowed to play in men's sports? Given that definition, no, of course not, right? So they should make the argument, they should make the case that we shouldn't segregate based on gender, we should segregate based on race.

whatever they think it is relevant. So like the picture that I showed you of those four trans men, do you think that they should be forced to play in women's sports? What I would say is precisely what I said, which is that if we're segregating based on men versus women, right? And they don't match the definition of man, either they need to make a league, they either need to make a league which is not based on gender or

But if all the leagues are by gender, then they have to play the women's one. That's my whole view. So my point is they should clearly, rather than trying to argue that they should play men's sports, they should just say, well, why are we doing it versus men versus women? We should delineate. We should second grade based on some other biological facts, so maybe based on hormonal status or whatever, whatever the case is. And we can have that conversation. But precisely because of the fact that whether it's trans men or trans women, they're delineating.

they're not making that case. They're actually using the fact that, even though it's clearly a biological term, right? Whether it's, again, the point is it's a heuristic, right? It's not ever perfectly accurate, right? Because people make this point all the time, right? Like,

Somebody might have other genetic facts about them that make them really good at the sport, right? Okay. You might have-

So that that was on the right. I can share it if you don't remember. I'm already on screen. No, I understand. No, I'm kidding. Go ahead. All right. Let's share. I understand. It would depend. Right. It would depend on each case. So it would depend. OK. Yeah. OK. Well, then maybe you can chime in here. I don't know if we're seeing this, but the guy on the upper right, I forget his his name, but he is a trans man who is an actor. Do you think that this person should play in men's sports or women's sports?

So are they taking hormones specifically to change? I don't know. I'm not their doctor, so I can't tell. That's relevant to analyzing and making a judgment on the case. I got you. So just based on appearance, what would you think? That's not fair, right? Because then that's just kind of insinuating there's an answer that I actually don't agree with if I knew the facts.

So we do need to know the facts. I think most people would look at that individual and think, yeah, that guy should be playing men's sports. You might think that. Yeah, that's totally fine. Okay, so quick, you're okay with that? You're all right with that? Wait, wait, wait. My point is, if we don't know their other biological... This is the whole point, right? On our view, right, you can believe that a person is a man and be wrong, right? The more obvious case would be like... This is more of a woman than a man case, but you're walking in the street and you see a person with long hair, right?

Okay, but I'm giving you a specific example of this guy. Would you be comfortable with this guy playing with the ladies? So I'm going to repeat my argument, right? Which is that... This guy, specifically this guy. What do you think? Yeah, so my view is precisely that if we're segregating based on gender, just gender, and by the way, I can... And this is the subtle point. It...

It could be, again, it could be a sufficient condition, but not a necessary condition. Or sorry, it could be a necessary condition, but not a sufficient condition, right? So what I can have the view is that this man cannot play in men's sports, but he also can't play in women's sports, right? So it doesn't follow that. I'm glad you at least called him a man. I appreciate that. No, I'm just, okay, well, yeah, it's fine. It just depends on what you mean by that. Well, you can say it in the argument. I appreciate that. That's okay.

That's what I'm saying. Okay. Yeah. What I'm just saying, though, is that if this person doesn't satisfy the criteria of being a man, right? That's my view, right? It does not follow that he must play women's sport, right? It might be the case that this person doesn't meet either case, right? And I think that's probably correct, right? So I think this person wouldn't be able to play in both men's sports and women's sports, right?

Right. Given the way we use these terms. So that's my view. My view is. OK, so this guy shows up at the gym. He wants to play basketball, but they got a man's league and a woman's league. And you're going to do what? A dick check to make sure that they got a penis. Is that the idea? No. Or would this guy just be allowed to play in the men's league?

Yeah, so I would mistakenly, just like I can be mistaken about a lot of stuff, right? I will probably mistakenly, if all I had is just based on his appearance, I would mistakenly let him play in the men's league, right? And do you think there would be any problem if you found out that he was born a female? Do you think that there would be any issues for the men's league? What would be the problem there? How would that affect the other men that are playing basketball? We are at time.

Okay. What'd you say, Ryan? I said the basketball just explodes spontaneously. What happens? No, anyways. Yeah, we are at time. So if you want to just wrap that last one up, we can, or if we can just move into Q and a, I gotta be honest with you guys. I have to pick up me wife from the airport. Goodness. So yes. Now it's all good. I was going to say at 1am in the morning for me, it's going to be fun. Yeah. Yeah.

Bring the dog and the kid, the whole nine. It'll be good. Anyway. All right. So we're going to get through these super chats, guys. Thank you so much for putting in the super chats. Yeah. Let's get right into them. Thank you to the panel as well. So, yeah. Let's see here. The very first super chat. You guys made it so easy for me. It was very nice, honestly. Okay.

Just kind of vibe out here and just kind of roll along with y'all. You're a very polite panel. So Jaden S. says, Yo Glock, I'm watching your stream, bruh. Why you try not to laugh? That shit's disrespectful ASF.

Well, there was moments where quick, I think he thought he was unmuted and he was talking. And so I was a little bit distracted. I'm sorry about that. I didn't know if he was like trying to respond or not. And I couldn't like text him to tell him to unmute. I noticed that as well. You were talking, but you were muted. But it was when Amy was talking. So I was like, who the heck is he talking to? Yeah.

Yeah. No, it happens all the time. I mean, I've been on mute too. So yeah, it's all good. I laugh too. Like the random, like sometimes it's just the live chat. Somebody will say something and I'll just be like, oh, that's. Yeah. And I can't stop. Like once I, once I thought about it, it's like five minutes later, I'm still thinking about it. So I'm over it now. So I'll review the poll right quick and we'll carry on. So are trans men, men? So 25% of our audience has said yes.

67% have said no. All right. And then 8% said, you know, must be swift as a coursing river. Anyway. Anyway.

Every time I host one of these debates, it just keeps coming back. I think it got sang the first time I hosted one of these themed debates, and somebody had said, somehow I'll make a man out of you. And I was just like, oh no, it's going to be in here forever now.

Anyway, let's carry on. Now it's stuck in my head. So sorry. All right, Court from TikTok says, Glock, what blush are you wearing? You can just paint the fifth and we can carry on.

I am wearing Rare Beauty, but I don't know. It's like the lightest pink blush, if that helps. I don't know. But it is Rare Beauty. Thank you, Courtney. No worries. Somebody's going to get after me now. They'll be like, did the Canadian just say plead the fifth? Get out of here. Anyway, Landon says, for $10, Glock's opening was amazing, Dr. Chris. What does practically mean? If common usage, you might as well concede now or you're going to get cooked for the next hour.

I think that I made it pretty clear that I didn't get cooked. So appreciate that though. All right. And they had asked, what does practically mean?

What does practically mean? I mean, you can go ahead and look that up. But I think what we mean is by common usage and like what works in this context in the social sense. Like when the image that I kept showing of these mix of trans men and cisgendered men that we just would refer to them as men. And it's very revealing that the other side doesn't really want to call them men, even quick kind of called one of them a man, even though it's a trans man.

All right, let's just carry along. We're steamrolling. So yeah, if you've got a question, we are whipping on through them. Panel's been great. AI, spelt like a Canadian, AI, $5 Canadian says, the entire debate is an exercise in pedantry. I respect people's pronouns in social slash biz environments out of courtesy. Just don't compel me legally to use it.

Oh, I think that's fair. Yeah, I'm good with that. I don't think that there should be legal prescriptions that you're going to be forced to say someone's pronouns. I think it's a courtesy and I think it's part of being in society to be respectful to people's wishes. It doesn't actually hurt you to do that.

I don't think that we need to require it legally. You shouldn't go to jail because you used someone else's... Their unpreferred pronouns. I mean, honestly, I think I've heard people say that enforcing it in a business setting is...

Quite pro-capitalist in a way, because all they really want to do is make sure that people are working was one of the arguments I'd heard somebody make. But we don't have to unpack. But go ahead there, Amy, if you like. So we should respect the need for people to disagree with us, even if it is a held belief.

I would say and agree with the doctor here. I think we need to separate out legality, which from what I would say is just personal kindness, compassion, a professional work setting. And so

Should someone go to jail because they say, look, my holy book says one thing and it says this, or I have a specific definition. I've been using it since I was born. I don't feel like changing. No, you shouldn't go to jail. What I will say that, um,

It may become a difficult work situation if you find out that someone is a different pronoun and then you are now purposely either refusing or going out of your way to pronoun them wrong. Then you're causing, I would say, conflict within the workplace. How that's handled, whether people just need to be moved or some other social situation,

fantastic, but we don't need to make it illegal. I want to win hearts and minds over. All right there. I just put that in the live chat to clarify for somebody that, uh, what I was saying there. Uh, but yeah, no, that, uh, hopefully that all made sense. Um, what I was trying to convey there. I mean, it was just like an argument that I, like I said, I'd heard brought up on here and I thought it was interesting, but, uh,

but yeah everybody's been polite here so i don't think that's a huge concern uh that people aren't going to be courteous uh you know they're having a bit of a deeper conversation than just courtesy here jewel program says anti-trans team should men over five eight be allowed to play basketball since they have a genetic advantage now as a tall guy as a kid who played basketball those elbows be coming down on those short kids every once in a while oh my

I want to thank Kevin Hart for that question. All right. Maybe a separate division? I don't know, but go ahead. We'll let you answer. Yeah, so I think in my view, like I said in our view, it's just a societal question, right? It just depends on what people say, right? So to be clear, what we're saying is that society seems to have decided that

Gender is a good way to segregate, not height, based for basketball, right? They disagree. You want to say we should segregate also based on height, right? So for like, Amy brought this up before, for boxing or some other classes, we also segregate beyond gender. We also segregate based on weight classes, right? So we could do that. We could do that, right? It's just a totally...

discussion that we as a society should have right the short stuff i'm just claiming yeah yeah we know we can have that right i mean people do that all the time with what even with basketball or stuff where like skill based right we say like oh you know you have to be certain skill level to play the sport or just like my point is that's fine right but the point is right currently as a site we've decided that we don't do that right we do it based on gender and not hype and so given that then you know obviously san jose or men should be able to play basketball okay

All right, let's carry on. Let's see. Deez Newt says, why should we allow trans-identifying males to invade women's only spaces when women's only spaces were made solely to exclude males? Answer that. Because I believe that both transgender and biological women have a fear in certain spaces of straight heterosexual men.

Now, oftentimes when I give this, they will say, but transgender women are straight heterosexual men. It tends to have a much higher propensity towards not only violence, but these sorts of hate crimes from, unfortunately, straight white older men. Does that mean that we should put all straight white...

older men under a microscope and things like that. No, we should treat them with respect and dignity, just as we should be trying to safeguard

the people who need it. I think in this situation, it's both biological and transgender women. So to really put a pinpoint on it, for this to have to be a problem, I would have to believe that transgender women are indeed a threat to biological women. If I thought that transgender women

word it had an increased threat towards biological women by being in locker rooms or bathrooms, then I would think that you could make a good case for that. Yeah. Amy, the question though is should trans men be,

be allowed in women's only spaces? Well, I apologize. Should trans men be allowed in women only spaces? Or be forced to go into women's only spaces? No, I believe that ought to be violating what I would view at least of the point that we're pushing forward. That if you are a

Trans man. Identifying as a trans man. You're full time. You're out. You should be using men's only spaces. You culturally, in my opinion, have given up the ability to go to women's only spaces. You should not be...

intruding in on them for the exact safety concerns that I was just saying a moment before. There's a trans man, a trans advocate who lives in Minnesota. His name is Michael Hughes. I encourage everyone to look up what he looks like. He's got a beard. There's all these... During the whole bathroom debate that occurred around 10, 12 years ago, he was taking pictures of him

Being forced to go into the women's bathroom, but he's got a beard on and he's got ripped muscles and he's asking and he would have like some woman behind him while he's in the women's bathroom asking, is this what you really want? Do you want me, a trans man going into women's bathrooms?

Because it sounds like that's what the other side wants. Like all those trans men that I showed earlier, they should be forced to go into the women's locker room? All right, real quickly there, quick. I know we're going back and forth. Yeah, let's make it quick there, quick. I had to, Pranit, I'm sorry. Go ahead. Yeah, so when they say, look, all we're saying is that's what it seems like society accepts. Maybe you disagree with that, that's fine. We can have the debate, right? But it's just, the whole point is you can't just say,

What's your view, Quick? That's what I'm asking. Like that guy that I showed with the ripped muscles, should he be forced to go into the woman's bathroom? I think Quick should finish his view. That's only fair. Okay, sure. Fair enough. Yeah. So what I'm trying to say is that's beyond the context of the debate in my view, right? So just to be clear. That's actually the whole point of the debate. No, no, I disagree. The whole point of the debate is that the man is that society has agreed that the man

has to go into the women's bathroom, right? Now, you personally might have other arguments for why you think that's wrong, right? That's a different conversation. But as a society, we can agree on that. That's the laws we've accepted. So we should go with that. That's my view. That's my view. So if you disagree with that, you should make the argument that he's a woman, or you should make the argument rather that we shouldn't, again, segregate based on gender. We should segregate based on some other factor. Maybe you think as long as you appear manly enough,

Right. But that should be clear. That's what you're saying. We should. So whatever. We should come with a different word that disambiguates and that. Yeah, that's fine. But that's all we do. Right. That's what we do. We trust. We trust trans people to respect society and society's norms. For instance, Michael Hughes with his beard and his ripped muscles. We don't want that person to go into a woman's bathroom with like a bunch of little girls, even though he was born a woman.

But you're saying he should go into the woman's bathroom and should be forced to because we're violating some principle of like what it means to be a man. Yeah, what I'm saying is that the law, the law using the common uses of men and women has decided that he can't go into a woman's bathroom. Right. Just like I can't go into a woman's bathroom. Right. And so that's that's not my choice. That's what we decided to do. Right. Now, if you disagree with that, that's fine. Then we should just come up. You understand Michael Hughes doesn't want to go into a woman's bathroom. He wants to go into the men's bathroom.

But your side wants to force him to go into the woman's bathroom. This is a guy who has ripped muscle and is bald and has a beard, but he was born a woman. Yeah, a lot of perverts might want to go to a woman's bathroom too. It's irrelevant, right? That's my point. He doesn't want to go into a woman's bathroom. Okay, fine. That's fine. He wants to go into the man's bathroom because he looks like a man and he identifies as a man. But that's not his choice. Let me in here, guys. Hold it.

I think in each one of these situations, there's sometimes a moral linchpin. I think that, you know, sports, we're talking about fairness. I think when it comes to bathrooms and locker rooms, we're talking about safety. And so...

I think that there's sometimes this fear that if we let trans women into women's bathrooms, trans men into men's bathrooms, that you will have these perverts that try and come in, try and spy on in whatever bathroom they want. What I would say is that there's already laws in place that...

if anyone is ever caught doing something inappropriate, they should go to jail. And it shouldn't matter whether they are biological, trans, man or woman. If you are a pervert, we should have a system of laws to get them away from people. Because what we don't want is we don't want to say, well, the fear of a pervert, we're going to now disclude all transgenders hoping that

that man to me. Again, I'm showing to the group. I don't know if Ryan's showing this. This is Michael. This is Michael Hughes. This is the trans advocate that was, you know, actually went quite viral around 10 years ago when the whole bathroom debate was happening. And this is what he looks like. He was born a woman.

But these bathrooms, and he lives in Minnesota, and fortunately Minnesota is not going to be the place where they're going to require some sort of genetic or penis check in order to go into a bathroom. But in states that would require this individual to go into the bathroom of their genetic sex, this person would have to go into the woman's bathroom.

And are you okay with that? That's what I'm asking quick. Do you want this guy in the woman's bathroom with like little girls? He doesn't want to, he wants to go into the men's bathroom, right? Yeah. I'm saying this, I just thought you decided that. Yeah. This, this, this person I'm being neutral. All right. Yeah. So this person, call him a douche. It's okay. No. Well, you know, like I said, I'm just trying to be neutral about this, not to beg the question. So this person, this person,

As a side, you decided this person should go into a woman's bathroom right now. You might disagree with that, right? He doesn't. Most places still allow him to go into the bathroom of his choice. There's only backward states that don't allow it. And I actually I think it's only like one from what I understand. I'm not entirely sure. Well, most states, most states allow him to have the judgment of being like, you know what?

Okay, then what's the issue? I don't get it. If... I don't get the issue, then, right? If all I'm trying to say is if we're segregating based on... If we're segregating based on gender, then this gentleman shouldn't be allowed to play. He is frozen. Frozen.

Oh, Dr. Chris. He would have to go into the women's bathroom. Doctor, you were just frozen for a second. All we heard was that last sentence. We did just hear the last sentence. If you want to just like. My internet was all of a sudden unstable. All I was trying to say is that my understanding is that it's your side that would require Michael Hughes to go into the woman's bathroom when he clearly doesn't and clearly shouldn't. He's a dude.

And for you to pretend that that's a woman who should go into the woman's bathroom is insane. It literally is insane. Yeah, no, I have the opposite view, right? So on my view is, yeah, if this person – if we're segregating based on gender, sex, whatever you want to call it, then by definition this person is going to have to go into the woman's bathroom, right? So on your view, you just think we should segregate based on that, right? Yeah.

which is fine. In my view, I think we should just allow, we should trust trans people to do the right thing and go into the bathroom that's appropriate for whatever they're presenting as, because the very vast majority of trans people are very sensitive to this issue and are going to be respectful of society. Like,

Michael Hughes is going to respect society and he's not going to be- - That's fine, that's fine. - But you want him to go into the woman's bathroom with the little girl. - Wait, wait, just before we get to that, I'll respond to that. I already responded a hundred times. Why do we segregate based on gender in the first place, right? You see, that's my whole point. We already do it in the first place, right? So we've already decided to accept it that we shouldn't let people like, forget Michael Hughes, you think I should be able to go into a woman's bathroom? Yes or no? - No, I don't. Do you identify as a woman?

Wait, wait, wait, that's my whole point. If tomorrow I say I can identify as a woman, do you think I should be able to go to a woman's bathroom? I think that I trust people who are truly transgender and who have the expression of that gender and also identify and use the cultural signifiers of that gender. I trust them to be respectful. Now, if they aren't, as Amy said –

If they're violating some sort of law or they're being disrespectful to the people in that bathroom, they should be punished for that. They should be a problem. Like if someone's like if you wanted like if you're wanting to sneak in and look at little girls in the bathroom, that's a problem. I think that that's disgusting. But Michael Hughes is a trans man who wants to go into the men's bathroom and you would require him to go into the woman's bathroom with the little girls.

Yeah, my view is why... He doesn't want to. Okay, that's fine. I'll answer that. Wait, just a minute. Wait, wait. Just quickly, quickly. I promise, like two seconds. One second. My whole point within why even segregate in the first place then, right? If it's just a trust system, why even segregate in the first place? Right? If we're segregating, the whole point of segregating is that...

wait, the whole point of segregation would be precisely that we're going to go beyond just the trust system, right? Because the whole point is whether I say to you, I'm a woman, right? You're still going to say no to me, right? That's the whole principle of segregating the press place, right? Let's leave me in here. Uh,

It's only there. You guys have been riffing for a while. No, it's good. I've enjoyed it. I would say that you're asking why are we using that as the metric? That's what it sounds like. I think gender naturally became the metric for things like bathrooms because we aren't checking people's privates. We have to go on things like these secondary sexual characteristics. We have to go on cultural connotations and references. When you go in the bathroom, you just...

everyone looks feminine or everyone looks masculine, go about your business and you get out of there. I will say there's a fear, I think, in some conservative, however you want to frame circles, that there are bad actors. There are people that could say, listen, I'm transgender tomorrow and I'm just doing it so that I could go into the bathroom or I'm transgender so I can win at sports.

I get that sometimes that these are concerns. I can't tell you that there is no human out there that is going to either be a pervert and transition fakely. I'm trying to find the right word here. Just so they can gain access culturally. I can't say there's no one out there that's going to transition just so they can get a better education.

a better position within the sport. What I can tell you is that there's almost no evidence for that. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. It's that generally, from what we've seen in the lived experience, is that transgenders come out and that it's a harder life, at least originally, when you come out and you're re-worked. And that you would have to go through massive cultural negatives to get at what...

they see as some sort of positive. Does that make sense?

Well, I do want to hand it over to Glock because the next question is for Glock. Maybe it would be unfortunate if we had to, like, you know, do some sort of genital check, if there was, like, some sort of scanner with a little screen that said, you know, smaller than average, right? Well endowed as you're, like, sitting there waiting and the next guy comes in. You're like, oh, man. All right, let's let you respond there, Glock, to what some of Amy was saying there because that's exactly what our super chat is asking. Nudge back, Glock.

Okay, sorry. What was the super chat? So they want you to nudge back on what's being said here. So if you want to... Oh, that was the chat. Yeah, they literally just... Yeah, they want you to nudge back on this. I mean, I endorse, I think, everything that Quick has said. Just as a larger point, I think we were trying to make this conversation and hopefully we didn't let the...

you know, conservative traditional side down. But we're trying to make this conversation a little bit more meaningful than playing a definition game for an hour. So we're trying to actually like analyze these cases and go through judgments and see just throw definitions aside, like how are people actually using the term? Like, what do they mean? What best captures meaning?

And so the sports case, I think, again, just overall is a good example. And I would respond by saying there are ambiguous cases. Of course, we need certain facts to make judgments. That's just how judgments work. And so with some of these examples, I can't really give one because I'm missing so much information. I think that's just a general response. But I ask you, what do you think about Michael Hughes? Do you think that he should be required to go into women's bathrooms?

I think it's a big case. I'm leaning towards yeah, because it's a biological female and that's just what people have generally agreed upon. Or it's just, I think the best thing to do is just have- Really? So if this person walks into the bathroom while you're in there, you're going to be fine with that? I don't see it any different as quick walking into the bathroom when I'm in there. I don't see it as any different. That's just-

Okay. Like, I think the whole point I'm saying is- Maybe we're just all in agreement that we're generally happy. That's totally bad faith. Maybe we're just all in agreement that it's great that people put it in a toilet and not on the floor or elsewhere. If you think how people, and I don't know if you live in a world where you think most people agree with you. I think most people agree with me. So I think most people agree with that. Really, like they would want Michael Hughes walking into the girl's bathroom.

With the context that you've provided, yes. If you just show a picture of someone, then they might not have the knowledge, right? And then you can laugh about it and posture and stuff. But the point is, you're missing context and you're missing information about certain ambiguous cases. And the thing is, most people are actually practical. They're not going to want this person in the women's bathroom. Most people think that the bathroom should be segregated by the sexes, just to be clear.

to be clear. - Exactly. - I agree, I think that they should be. - So I'm not being in that place. - And that someone who identifies as a man and expresses as a man and is bald and has big muscles shouldn't be allowed in the women's bathroom. - No, no, we said sex, we said sex, right? She said sex, right? Just to be clear. She said most people agree that we should segregate based on sex. So again, just to be clear, right? Our whole argument, and this is why I'm confused,

Why, on your view, why even segregate based on sex or gender at all, right? On your view, right, if it's just a trust system, right, why not make everything, why even segregate based on sex or gender, right? I can answer that too. I would like Chris to answer. Oh, I'm so sorry. No, go ahead, Amy. Why don't you go first and then I'll follow up. Well, I just wanted to say that

I think it would be hard to segregate completely by sex because of the fact that we would need potty police, because of the fact that we would need some sort of identification system, chromosomal or otherwise. What I will say is that there could be, and I'll hand it back over to the doctor, is that there may be solutions that are completely gender neutral solutions

going in together if we made everything stalls you had i'm trying to think of other cypress solutions there could have been ways there already are gender neutral bathrooms right now you just uh

go in and close. And so if that is the way we wanted to do it, we could do it that way. But I think ultimately we chose gender, whether consciously or not, because it is something that is easily to identify. It is the things that are highlighting and advertising to people, the clothes that we wear, our hair,

these things allow us to make these sort of snap decisions that I think if we were to just say we are segregating on, segregating, if I could pronounce English. 10 seconds and we got to move on.

It wouldn't become appropriate. I think it's a natural way. All right. Thank you so much. An honest doubter says in description of the described, aren't these concepts slash names about our bodies labels we put on a transcendent? Why should we treat such labels as truth? Not sure. I'm not even sure I understand the question to be honest. Yeah. I think it's to us. Yeah. So yeah,

My whole position is that, I'm not sure, like I said, we as a society have decided to put these labels. That's our whole view, right? We have decided to put these labels, right? Now, the whole problem, at least I have, is that the other side seems to say is trying to play on this ambiguity, which I don't think it's ambiguous, right? I think it's very clear that, and they're playing on this fact that there's this ambiguity about the word woman,

Yeah, like I said, so I don't think there's anything special, right? It's just a label. It's a label we decided. And because of the label, you have to be like, for example, we segregated based on sex or gender, sex. I think it was equivalent basically for women's sports, all these other cases, right?

I don't know what you mean by trans-identity. Sorry. All right, let's ask this last one here from Deez Newts says, for $20, Chris, trans-identifying male is not a trans man. It's what you call a trans woman. Why should we allow trans-identifying males in women's only spaces when women had to fight to get female-only spaces?

Should we allow trans-identifying males in female spaces? I don't think that we... Wait, did I misunderstand it? Yeah, go ahead and clarify that. Can you read it again, Ryan?

Yeah, so this is directed at Chris. So they say, Chris, trans identifying male is not a trans man. It's what you call a trans woman. Why should we allow trans identifying males and women's only spaces when women had to fight to get female only spaces? It's because I was getting slippery with use of male versus man. Okay. I may have misspoken. If I said trans identifying male, I meant trans identifying man or a trans man, right? Yeah.

So I don't think that we should allow trans men like Michael Hughes into women's spaces, women's only spaces. Like, I don't think we should certainly force Michael Hughes or the other trans men that I showed in this debate to go into a women's only bathroom or a women's only locker room.

And it seems that that's what the conservatives want. They want people who have beards, people who are missing their hair, people who have big muscles and for all intents and purposes look like a man. They want them to go to be forced to go into the women's bathroom with little girls. And that's insane to me. I think that we can trust trans men and trans women to be

uh sensitive to the uh to to the environment that they're in and sensitive to the people around them and that they have you know if if anyone knows like what gender expression is it's generally going to be trans people they are very sensitive to these things and obviously michael hughes has done a lot of work to express as a man as his identity is and it would be insane for him to be forced to go into the woman's bathroom that's what i mean by that

Sure. Yeah, if we can be quick. I just want to highlight because I think that Dr. Chris did a perfect job and example there. I think the person is actually trying to say that

trans-identified males, therefore they're males. And yet I would say that, yes, a trans-identifying male is a trans woman. That is actually what our argument actually is being put forth, is that they, biological sex doesn't match with the gender of

And it's true. Women's spaces were hard fought. We want to have protection and safety for women. What I don't want to do is disregard transgender. I don't want to disregard one group for the sake of another. I want to make sure that both groups get taken care of and win. And I think we have the ability to do so.

All right. Last one coming in. Just squeezing in one more. Richie says, for $5, I'm a white man. Can I identify as a black female if I really feel like one and dress and color my skin like one? Or can I just be female? I'm not sure exactly. I'm happy to answer that. Yeah, sure. So...

The female part? Well, I think that we've kind of established that. Not necessarily that you just feel like that, but if you have certain biological features that match the, say, like if we were to scan your brain, and Richie, if we were to find that some of those parts deep within the hypothalamus that are important for sexual identity actually turn out to be more female-like, well, then that would be an indication that you do have certain biological features that are consistent with the female sex.

And that perhaps it would be okay for you to go around calling yourself a woman, not necessarily a female because generally we use the term male and female for the biological aspect. Now, as far as identifying as a black person, well, no, that actually has to do with your overall heritage, right? So,

black people come, you know, they, we think of them as originating out of Africa, and therefore you would have to have African heritage. So you can't just dye your skin and then just say that you're a black person. That's just not how that works. Can I respond to that? Yeah, sure, I know we're going to move into closings, but yeah, go ahead. Yeah, very quickly. Okay, so that's a great argument. And look at his argument. His response is just that he appeals to biological facts about your heritage,

But that's the whole issue, right? It is. I just said parts of the hypothalamus that are female-like would be an indication that there's a biological reason for why that person identifies as a female. That's my point. Chris, Chris, Chris, Chris.

No, okay. The point is, well, because we can go with that, right? Because you already granted that if people don't have those hypothalamus cases, right, they'd still be a woman, right? If they identify as a woman. So that's not sufficient. So you don't even grant that's sufficient. No, I think that there would be an indication that if they're identifying as a female and there's a long case history

Right. Because as Amy already pointed out, it's not that you can just willy nilly decide that you're a female. You're going to have to go undergo all kinds of evaluations if you're going to take the effort of undergoing the transition process.

through gender affirming hormone therapy and surgery that it's going to involve a number of doctors that are going to uh that are going to evaluate your overall case totally fine and that all of that would be an indication so if you've been feeling gender dysphoria since a very young age that must mean that there's something happening within the brain that got misaligned totally fine you the only point i said was that you're granted we agree that's biological

Now can I speak? Okay, no, no, no, no, that does not necessarily follow. Okay, because it could be the case that every transgender person, the biological fact is different, right? So, okay, look, you would even grant, and this is the whole point of making, like here, I can just put the thought experiment, even though this is a side issue because you can never tell me. I could even, let's say that, let's say that it turns out that this person identifies as a woman, but their brain is identical to

A person with anaphylaxis is a man, right? You still want to call them a trans person, right? Yes or no? Just yes or no. I don't think that that person is going to have a male-like brain in that case. It just isn't.

I'm not sure. OK, look, I'll let people decide, because to me, it's very clear that on their view. Right. The biology, if they identify as a woman. Right. That's what's really important. Right. His argument, his response to that is, well, there has to be something different in the brain. Well, like I said, my example is just that. Well, it seems very clear that even if we did it in some full investigation, we found out that this person doesn't have a different.

brain state than the average male, right? He still wants to say that they're a trans person, right? So on his view, this whole biology stuff is totally irrelevant. It's totally irrelevant. Okay. So because of that, the transracial stuff, it just, your argument is totally correct, right? Because, right, if it's not about biology, if it's about identifying or about social facts, then it should be the same thing about black people, right? It's pretty straightforward. That's it. That's my argument.

All right. Let's move on to the next question here. I'm just going to pull it up, but yeah, no, you know, Chris, I just, I just see this being a meme eventually where it's like the, they scan the brain and Shania Twain's man. I feel like a woman starts playing just Dan Dan. It's like, that's how we knew. Right. Yeah. It was,

It was pressed like a vinyl into the grooves of their blade. Leave it to a Canadian to bring up Shania Twain. I had to, you know? Next I'll be talking about Kraft Dinner and ketchup chips. You watch it. Coffee crisps, the whole nine. All right, Dr. Chris and Amy. We got another one that just...

squazz its way in. I'm going to make this the last one because I really do have to get my booty moving. Dr. Chris and Amy, what is the argument that the biological usage is not the common usage? Y'all didn't give an adequate response. Also, can we take a second to notice Glock's effortless beauty?

Was that our moment of silence? Our moment of silence, everybody. How about for me now, right? Okay, we'll move on. Thank you, commenter. So this is for Dr. Chris and Amy. I'll let you pick up the torch on this one there, Amy, if you like. Sure. And so, can you repeat the question one more time? What is the argument that the biological usage is not the common usage? Okay. We believe that we...

Whether it's the common usage or not, I think we are using the proper medical, both sociological, psychological, and at this point it's taught in undergrad biology class. I think we are using how the terms are used in an academic setting. And I think from that, it eventually bleeds out into culture. You may be right. The common usage may be XXX.

woman, x, y, man, and that's how we always used it. That's what me and all my friends use it. Why are you trying to change it? There are good reasons why from academia we now have updated nuanced versions of sex and gender that I think are

well substantiated. I want to bring up another point after Dr. Chris from something we said, but let me hand it over to Dr. Pretty good. Over to you, Chris. I would only want to, well stated, Amy, and yes, of course, Glocky would

Great. Yeah. Just agree with the comment. So the the the what I would say is that when we use the term man, we actually aren't talking about whether they have an XX or an XY chromosome arrangement or like what the size of their gametes are or what whether they have penises genitalia. We're not talking about that.

We're talking about in the common usage about what their overall expression of their gender is. You can look at the people that I showed, the mix of those people, and just about everyone would say that they are men. And that's because they have taken an effort to identify as a man, the ones that are transgender, and have undergone a number of procedures to look and present as a man.

And that's what we're talking about. Now, I'm also making the additional argument that for many transgender individuals that it is likely that there is an underlying biological reason for that, for feeling the way that they did. Like they grew up feeling as if that they did not have the gender that matched their native sex.

and therefore there must be something going on psychologically and neurologically. We already have data, plenty of studies indicating that there are differences in the transgender brain relative to the cisgender and that's just fully consistent with this concept that those individuals that identify as the gender that is different from their native sex, that there is some ambiguity that it isn't within the brain. So there's a biological portion to that too.

expression and identity is rooted in the brain. I know some men think with their penis, but in fact, it's mostly happening out of your brain. Okay. And it's not the penis that's controlling your overall gender expression. It is, it is happening in the brain. So of course it's rooted in the brain. Just real quickly, uh, from a point before I want to stick a flag down. I do not believe that you could be transracial trans species. I believe that they're

are good separations why you can't be the attack helicopter because species very specifically is a biological classification for which one cannot ever

low current technology transform and race is an outdated I would say pseudo concept we do have things like ethnicity and as Dr. Chris was saying there are good reasons why we use terms like African American to mean individuals who unfortunately were forced over here from Africa

And so it is these types of specifics that draw a separation from gender and being transgender. It really is only one thing. And that is this scale, a spectrum of masculine and feminine. How masculine are you? How feminine are you? Do you identify as a man, a woman, maybe a femboy?

Maybe a masculine woman. There's all sorts of ways you can identify yourselves. These are all going to manifest again within a psychological perspective and they cannot happen in anything else like species, race, etc., etc.

All right. I got to get my booty moving. So one minute closing. We're going to start over with Dr. Chris. Thank you, everybody on the panel. Before the live chat gets upset with me, a couple people are in there saying, go get your wife, poor lady. No, no. She's not going to be there for a while. I have a couple things I want to get ready just before she gets home because I'm a romantic. No problem. I'll be very brief. One minute.

Yep, absolutely. So, you know, again, thanks for hosting this. I really appreciate it. And I'll be honest, like, I don't really like debating this topic. I'm here because I'm with my good friend, Amy. I think that debating the topic of whether trans men are men is something that kind of makes me feel a little ill because I do feel that it can be disrespectful to an aggrieved minority in this. But I hope that we gave validity to those individuals that identify as trans and

that you are loved and respected, that we did make the good case that we can consider you as a man in the colloquial sense of the term, and that we're not going to fall down in some sort of rabbit hole of Vulcan logic and logical syllogisms where we're going to somehow exclude you. All right. One minute on the floor. Amy, it's all yours.

Again, I just want to thank Dr. Chris and Ryan and Glock and Brown Fox. Thank you. Thank you all for being with us and having this debate. I would implore anyone as well. We are having a after show. If you would like, come tell us what you think. Positive, negative. Are trans men men? Yes, they are.

They are men because sociologically we separate them out from biological sex, sex dealing with the organs and the gametes, and gender dealing with how we feel mentally as individuals.

Thank you again, and I'm looking forward to talking to everyone. Awesome. Thank you, Ryan. Thank you. All right. Well, yeah, great having you all. And we're going to hand it over to the other side. So I'll get your first thoughts there quick, and then I'll get Glock to close us out. So one minute on the floor for you there quick. Yeah, thank you again for hosting the debate, and I appreciate everyone. Sorry, I don't know if you were expecting a zombie. I don't know.

I came very last minute so hopefully I did all right. So yeah, I think the basic point is and sadly this was never really discussed in debate, we gave the positive case, we gave the case of gender reveal for why the common usage isn't aligned with their case and they're really gonna respond and if you notice throughout the debate their whole argument intersects and I think we gave a clear response to that even if we granted that case

It does not include most transgender people, which is our whole point. And if you look at most of the controversial issues today, they are not about these intersex cases. So it's very disingenuous to bring those up. And if you grant that, you'll see that most of the time we're using it in a biological notion. It excludes people like Leah Thomas, all these other cases you could think of. And so I think we have a very clear-cut case of gender reveal and response to their case.

about intersex cases, basically. For a while, yeah. Okay, that's it. All right, no worries. That is time. So Glock, one minute on the floor. Close us out.

Okay, I'll try to be as quick as possible. I speak quickly, so it's fine. I'm just actually going to mainly respond to what they recently said. If you've noticed, I think a lot of when we've asked for an argument that it's common usage because they denied that it was, they're just begging the question. I don't know if you caught that, but just asserting that it's their view and they're not really giving an argument for it. What you could do is give cases that kind of show people are using it in alignment with the way you're using it, and they didn't do that. They just, again, as I said, beg the question.

The difference, so the whole you can't identify as a helicopter because there's a certain notion of helicopter, right? You can identify as a cat because a cat is a biological sort of thing that you can't just identify as.

The reason you think that is because people have common usage of the term that cat means this. So if you say it, you sound crazy, right? And again, that's our argument that it's common usage. Just really quickly too about the whole, there's a medical definition. There being a medical definition doesn't say that there's a common usage, that that's the common usage. So like, for example, you have male pattern baldness, female pattern baldness, right? That's like, there's a medical description on how you can like identify that, but that's not how people colloquially use the term baldness or being bald. Just want to make that clear.

Okay. Awesome. All right. Well, thank you. Good luck. Thank you. Quick. Amy and Dr. Chris for coming out. Uh, Amy extended an invitation over to her channel for some, uh, after show. So if you want some more, sorry, I forgot to do that. Can I do that? If you're doing that? Yeah, absolutely. Okay. I did just get banned on my tech talk because you know, tech talk. So I haven't all, I have a backup. I've typed in glaucoma on tech talk. There's

five A's at the end to now. Me and Quick will be going live. So if you want to ask us questions or anything, you can come and debate us over there too. Awesome. All right. Well, yeah, thank you guys for coming out once again. And if you haven't had a chance to hit the like button, it only takes a second. I've done it with my nose when I'm standing outside in the cold. So I mean, you know, more Canadian stuff, right? No living igloos. Yeah, exactly. There's no excuses for you. That's right. We had over 300 people participate in the poll. We appreciate that.

So I'm going to close that out. Let me just review the poll right quick because people will get on my case if I don't. They'll say, what was the poll? I don't know.

Let me just bring that back up. All right. So our trans men, men, we have 22 for yes, 71 for no. And then 7% say you must be swift as a coursing river. All right. So we're going to miss on my end on that one. No, I'm glad that most people partook in the actual poll and let us know where you're standing. So yeah, we'll see you guys once again on Modern Day Debate.

in just a few days here. Actually, I think tomorrow we got another one coming up. So yeah, just hit the notification bells on any upcoming debates. Very important. I got to bust out of here. So cheers, everybody. Bye. Bye. Thanks, Ryan. Bye, everyone.

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