Celebrating 10 Years of 'To Pimp a Butterfly'
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It's funny because GNX, we talk about GNX as being his most LA album, his most Compton album, a love letter to his hometown. I feel like "Sepemper Butterfly" is also a love letter to Compton, but I think the vantage points are different.

With GNX, he is in LA, writing about LA, to LA, for LA. He's in it. I think in To Pimp a Butterfly, he is somewhere across the world. He's in South Africa. He's touring. The success that he has has taken him places beyond, but he's still talking about home in every single record.

Hey everyone, we're taking this week off from our Mr. Morale season. We'll pick back up next week with our Rich Spirit episode. However, I am very excited to present today's episode celebrating the 10-year anniversary of To Pimp a Butterfly. My guest today is Rob Markman, a very respected hip-hop journalist and MC. Rob conducted what I consider to be the best interview Kendrick Lamar has ever given, which was recorded just after To Pimp a Butterfly's release back in 2015. If you haven't seen it, I would highly recommend it. You can find a link in the episode description.

In our conversation, Rob and I discussed this interview and all things to Pimp a Butterfly, its release, its legacy, its themes, and much more. I hope you enjoy it. All right, Rob Markman is here. Thanks for joining Dissect, man. Thank you for having me, man. I've been a fan a long time for the work that you've been doing with this podcast. So it's an honor. It's a pleasure to be here.

Yeah, likewise. I'm very excited to talk to you about To Pimp a Butterfly celebrating, man, it's been 10 years, which is just kind of wild to think about. So I wanted to start the conversation off today just kind of taking us back to 2015. You know, as a historian of this genre, I think you can really paint the picture for us about kind of just the general landscape of hip hop at the time.

uh paired with you know where kendrick lamar as an artist was coming off of good kid mad city and the kind of public um reception of that record and kind of the expectations of his sophomore project so if you could just kind of paint the picture of 2015 for us uh as a way to get this started yeah you know as i remember 20 2015 was a pretty good year for hip-hop like things were running um

As expected, status quo in a lot of different areas. I believe Drake dropped around the top of 2015, if you're reading this, it's too late, which was a really, really celebrated project for him. I know a lot of fans, especially younger fans, consider that a classic. It was an entry point for them.

a band, a record. And actually what we didn't know is that later events around that record would set off Drake and Meek Mill, which was big in 2015. So there was a bit of turmoil. But I remember if you're reading this, it's too late. I believe Future also dropped Dirty Sprite 2. DS2 came out that year. So the top

You know, artists in hip hop were doing what they were supposed to do, what we expected them. And then, you know, for Kendrick, the question was, could he do it again? Good Kid, Mad City came out 2012. It was heralded as a classic. You know, I guess he took about three years off.

And we hadn't seen him for a couple of years. And he comes back with September Butterfly. And there was definitely questions around, can Kendrick do it again? Yeah, it's interesting in the way that... Yeah, 2015, it feels like that blog era generation was really coming into its own and really kind of putting out some of their best work. And I do remember the conversation about what Kendrick was going to do next. And I don't know if anyone expected this, right? We got...

I as a single, which was kind of crazy in that the sonics of it were unexpected, I would say, I remember. Just the warmth of it, the message, and that almost set an unexpected precedent for what was coming. And then that was paired also then with Blacker Than Berry, the second single before the album dropped.

And that was like classic Kendrick Lamar duality of, of I versus black or the berry. And so I remember not quite, you know, given those two songs, it wasn't quite clear what he was going to do. And I think when we finally got to pimp a butterfly, neither of those two songs really told the full story of what the album was going to be. And so let's, yeah. Take me back to kind of,

Yeah. So take me back to your first listen, what you remember of that experience and just kind of how you first received the record. Yeah. Well, I do remember when I came out, there were a lot of questions. It wasn't received well.

I think a lot of people, when you said the sonics of it and the warmth, I mean, it was that classic Isley Brothers sample. A lot of people thought it was kind of too happy and people, the reaction to that record wasn't great out the box. You know? Yeah.

But it's funny when you think about Good Kid, Mad City, the first record that we heard off of that was The Recipe with Dr. Dre and Kendrick. And that wasn't received too well out of the box either. And then we got Swimming Pools. And it's funny because even Swimming Pools...

though it was well received and it worked and it set us off on a journey didn't tell the full out the full story we didn't even know what to expect from good kid mad city so i think that's kind of kendrick's way too is that there's always kind of a bigger picture even if you don't get it at first i remember when the black of the berry came out too there was a bit of controversy there too yep um with and and you know kendrick and i had spoke about that but there was a bit of controversy about um

You know, as it always is in the big concern in the community is police brutality, particularly against black males, but against black people as a whole. And, you know, people construed Kendrick's message as if.

When he says, basically in the last verse, he was saying that he's the biggest hypocrite of 2015 because he'll harm somebody blackening him. You know what I mean? And I purposely don't use the word misconstrued. People just construed or people just...

Took it maybe a way that Kendrick didn't mean, or if Kendrick was saying that somehow excusing police brutality, which he wasn't. And I think that moment was also colored by the, I believe it was a billboard interview where he said, made a statement about, he was asked about Michael Brown and,

And he, some, something along the lines of like, that should have never have happened, but I wish people were looking at this issue sooner. It's been a problem for years and decades. And then he said, how can we, you know, have expect people to respect us if we can't respect ourselves. And I think so that comment paired with the message of,

Black or the Berry. I do remember that being a moment. And we'll talk about you guys talking about that when we get to talking about your interview with him. So there was a lot of conversation coming in to the record. So

Um, and a lot of that, I think it was addressed with the themes of the record. And I don't remember the controversies kind of lasting too long after the record dropped when the whole vision and the whole message was much more clear. Uh, so yeah, take me back to your, your first reception of it and just like your thoughts at the time.

Yeah. And then the other thing real quick, and thank you for that context because that context is important as to what the public reaction was to it. I also got a chance to hear King Kunta before it dropped before the rest of the public. Somebody had played me the record. Okay. And I was kind of blown away by that. And even the version that I heard early was slightly different from what actually ended up coming out a couple of times. Do you remember what the difference was? Yeah.

I won't say exactly, but a couple of bars would definitely change. Okay. Minor bars. I don't know if the original one leaked, but yeah, a couple of bars would change. Okay. And so when I first heard the record, though, it definitely was like... I mean, I was blown away by the jazz element. I think sonically, you know, really...

the record blew me away sonically and I wasn't expecting him to go there. And I'm not the biggest jazz aficionado, but my entry point into jazz is through hip hop, it's through groups like Tribe Called Quest, it's through the

songs that DJ Premier used to sample. It's through Pete Rock and the songs that he used to sample, even "Diggable Planets" and things like that of this jazz appreciation movement that was going on in the '90s with hip hop producers. And so it was dope for me to see him emerge with a jazz sound in 2015. I wasn't expecting that from him. So sonically, it struck me. And then it was like, "Wow, what is he saying on this record?" The record also sounded like a musical,

very much like a Broadway play with the different interludes and the different voice inflections. And it's the thing, if you think about it, Good Kid, Mad City was a film by Kendrick Lamar. So there were cinematic elements to this. This maybe had more Broadway play type elements. But if you even fast forward to the Super Bowl performance, a lot of that...

DNA from what we were introduced to in "Pimple Butterfly" through Kendrick still kind of remains. Him talking back and forth with the women, with the high-pitched voice and how we get from song to song and that narrating us through. So it was daring. When I first heard about it, I was blown away. I was just like, "Yo, this is daring. This is different." I loved it. I didn't know how people were going to perceive it.

People loved it out the gate. I remember at the time, I was doing a segment on Sway in the Morning, shout out to Sway, where I was doing album reviews called The Rob Report, where I would review albums and give it a rating. And my initial thought was I gave To Pimp a Butterfly, and this was days after it came out, a 9.5 out of 10, which I thought was fair at the time. And I'm also coming off of Good Kid, Mad City, which we loved, and this was so drastically different.

And I'm like, man, this still feels like a classic, but if I'm judging it against Good Kid, 9.5 out of 10. And boy, do people let me have it.

Oh my God. Yo, you owe him another half a point. This is 10 out of 10, like right out the gate. I kind of feel like I remember because Sway posted it on his Instagram. I kind of feel like I remember Taraji P. Henson being like, nah, he needs a 10. Like people were definitely like reacting to it. And it's not like I gave him a bad review. It was 9.5 out of 10. People wanted that other half a point. So, you know, I...

I think out the gate, people were kind of blown away by the brilliance of it and the daring, just the chances that he took on the album. Yeah, that's something that struck me at the time and even more as the years go by, which was, you know, and he talked about it in your interview, but essentially, you know, your sophomore record is an important one coming off of a successful debut, right?

of course, studio album, public, you know, a major label release for Kendrick. And to take such a daring risk this early in his career, I thought was daring artistically, but it also set a precedent, right? I can't remember if it was Kendrick or another artist that did a similar thing where it was a strategic long-term play of like,

If I do it now, if I do it this early, I set a precedent in my career and my discography that I am allowed to take these kind of chances and I can be successful at taking these more experimental routes. And it sets a precedent early in my career to where I have a little more artistic freedom and the public just understands me as an artist right out the gate. And so that is always something I really respected about

This record was how early he was experimental. I mean, there's singles from this, this record, but they're not your traditional singles. And yeah,

And there's no sacrifices made to the concept of the record with the singles. Where I think he talked about towing the line a little bit more with Good Kid, Bad City, where he didn't really do that really at all on To Pimp a Butterfly. And so each of the singles works conceptually within the record perfectly to the point where a song like All Right, probably the biggest song from

uh, from the record, uh, from the album, uh, especially, you know, in terms of legacy, you know, you listen to the verses of that song, he introduces a character Lucy in the second verse. And he's talking about when I wake up, he's talking about the previous song in you and that whole kind of drunken episode. And this is like the morning after. So he's, he's doing narrative things within the verses, uh,

The second verse, he's introducing this main character after he defeats Uncle Sam. And so there's all these narrative conceptual threads going on, and he's advancing the story within this anthem that works on its own. And that's kind of just the genius of

of Kendrick where he's able to, to make a song like King Kunta, which does the same thing where it's like at once a celebration and a, a song of pride of success and, and owning that. And it's, and, and being prideful in that,

At the same time, it's track three on the record and it's him coming back to Compton, not to help, but to gloat. And so like, like you said, in your interview, it works both ways. It works as a single, as a standalone anthem, but within the context of the record and where it sits in the record, it also, it also, it also,

exposes his fundamental flaw, which he's going to return to Compton on I with the live performance. And that's a whole different message. He's not there to gloat anymore. He's there to help unite.

And so it's just, that's one detail of a record full of details that I just respect so much, especially this early in his career, right? Like this is stuff you don't do this with your second record, but of course it's Kendrick Lamar. We now come to expect these things, but I think him again, laying this precedent early was so, so huge in how his career ended up playing out and just making that, you know, that,

that willingness to take the artistic route doing that so early, I think, uh, is something that I just can't say enough about. Um, so you talked about the, the public reception of the record. I want to get a little bit more into that because it did, it did feel like it was heralded as an instant classic yet. Now I feel like,

In terms of commercial performance and streams and all that, it's definitely not the one the general public goes to, but it's also, at the same time, a lot of Kendrick's fans' favorite, and a lot of people still think it's his best work. So I'd be curious to hear your thoughts about, maybe not the legacy yet, we're going to talk about that a little bit later, but just the general reception at the time and how that's kind of aged now.

Yeah. You know, again, I think the general reception, again, I felt in in real time because I did a review and I shorted him half a point and the people let me people call for my head. They wanted the source five mics. Yeah. You know, you know, it was like when big boys said I got to hit the source, they owe me another half a mic because that Southern Catalystic Playlist was a classic. Right. Like they wanted that. You know, it's funny what you said. You know, I think people were engaged because it was so different.

And not only that, the Tupac interview that happened towards the end was such an engaging thing and a divisive thing anytime you do something with Pac. But people were largely accepting of it because it was Kendrick and what he stood for. I remember having a conversation with that, and I don't know if this made the interview forgive me. It might have because...

I don't think we cut anything out of that interview and we'll talk about that later, I guess. But maybe it was before the camera started rolling. But I did kind of liken in to Nas and Illmatic. And Illmatic wasn't the commercial success, but it was the classic. And when Nas came with his sophomore album, it was written, was a classic as well. But he made a lot more concessions. He made plays towards mass appeal.

Like, having If I Rule The World be your first single with an R&B hook, that was still kind of new. There was a point in hip hop where if you put an R&B singer on your record, you were considered a sellout.

Rob Markman: And in the mid '90s, obviously all of that changed. Bad Boy changed a lot of that aesthetic. But for somebody like Nas, putting an R&B record, putting an R&B singer even with Lauryn Hill on "If I Rule The World" on the first single from your second album to your classic was a divisive move for people who either loved it or they hated it.

So, you know, I was kind of talking to Dad about Illmatic and then it was like, yo, it's OK to make your first classic. And then, you know, you're in the music business. Eventually you got to play the game. And he said something and I can't quote him word for word, but he said something to the effect of, yeah, but I just wanted to see if I can get away with doing Illmatic again.

Basically, I want to see how much they will let me get away with. But it's exactly what you said. He was setting the precedent for, hey, this is the type of artist that I am. I'm going to give you something that you don't expect. It's not going to be sonically safe. We're not going to play into... I don't think we were quite talking about algorithms yet in terms of streaming. That was just starting to start, but I'm not trying to fit on your playlist. I'm not trying to... I'm going to give you a full body of work...

Rob Markman: And so it was great. So yeah, I think once the album dropped, people loved it. I think there was a lot of skepticism with "I."

Rob Markman: And even then, as a Kendrick fan, I didn't understand it. I'm like, "Dude, this is the Isley Brothers. We grew up on this. My mom played this when she was cleaning the house on Sunday. What's your problem with the Isley Brothers?" But that song had been licensed a bunch of time for commercials and stuff like that. So it felt kind of soft, I guess. But it was like, "Dude, who didn't grow up on the Isley?" And then "Black of the Berry" and the controversy around that.

I think King Kunta started to change things and when that album dropped and it sank in, I think the general perception was like, "Oh wow, he did it again." Because that was the question, can he do it again? And I think pretty early on people were like, "He did it again."

Rob Markman: When you go back into time and you look at his discography as a whole, as it is now, maybe 'Damn' is the more accessible record for a casual listener. Maybe 'Damn,' because it's also hard to pick apart to 'Pimple Butterfly.' It's hard to just listen to one song. Like you said, 'All Right' is a standalone, but the callback to 'Lucy,' it very much fits within the story. And in terms of albums that you may be able to just pick apart and listen to a song at a time, 'Damn' might be that album.

Maybe 'GNX' is that album. But it was brilliant from out the gate. What it was to me was, it was the natural progression of a guy who made it. It's funny because 'GNX,' we talk about 'GNX' as being his most LA album, his most Compton album, a love letter to his hometown.

I feel like to pimp a butterfly is also a love letter to Compton, but I think the vantage points are different. I think with GNX, he is in LA writing about LA to LA for LA. He's in it. I think it's a pimple butterfly. Yeah.

He is somewhere across the world. He's in South Africa. He's touring. The success that he has has taken him places beyond, but he's still talking about home in every single record. "Institutionalize" is about home. It's about like, "Oh, I can't take my people with me. I take them to the BET Awards and they plotting on robbing other rappers." Something is wrong here with "Institutionalize." "You" is about being depressed that your homies, your people back at home are dying.

And you're out here living this life. It's almost like the survivor's guilt. Like I'm out here doing this, but my people are going through real things back at home. He talks about his sister being pregnant at a young age and his feelings around that. So it was almost like, oh, what good is all this fame, this wealth, all of this thing that I've accumulated if I can't help my people back home and my people back at home are kind of going through the same generational things that they have been going through.

So it's interesting to look at like to pimp a butterfly and GNX through those lenses, because I think they're both love letters to home. The vantage points are just different. Yeah, that's a great point, because so much of to pimp a butterfly is. Yeah, exactly what you said. This kind of reckoning with his his newfound influence and how how can he bring the education and the experiences that he's been privy to through making it out?

How, how, how do you filter that back in? You know, and I think that this has plagued him. I mean, GNX feels like a breakthrough to me, but like Mr. Morale was still reckoning with that. And I feel like Mr. Morale was really the, finally the kind of the, I don't know if a conclusion is the right word, but you know, damn was very much still, still reckoning with how do I use my influence and,

How do I change as a person? Because even like, damn is still reckoning with like that institutionalized mindset and him still feeling ill will towards other black men out of vengeance. And I'm supposed to be this leader yet. I'm feeling these things in my DNA and I'm still conflicted. And then we get, you know, obviously Mr. Morale shows the, the deep kind of work that you actually need to do.

to kind of get rid of those things if they ever go away. I'm not sure. You know what's interesting, sorry to that point, is that on To People Butterfly is when he earned or when he was anointed or given that savior role, that holier-than-thou role. And the truth of the matter is that Kendrick...

throughout all of his albums, throughout all of his journeys, has been telling us, I'm not better than you. I'm not better than my environment. I still struggle with these things. And I think he was kind of anointed that savior role. And he's always kind of rebuked that. And just to your point, just to illustrate that, like...

on Dan when the verse when he's like, yo, my homie is saying, K-Dot, pray for me. It's been a fucked up day for me. My son got killed. Yo, tell me some words that'll get me through. And Kendrick's like, I don't know what to tell you. Because if that was me,

Like, you know what I'm saying? I'm going to chip him off and throw the blow in his lap and go to the court. Like, bitch, I did that. And the guy says, I know that you're anointed. Tell me how to overcome, you know, which is, man, what a heavy. Well, you know, that's a great point because in the interview that you did with him, one of the things that has always stuck out and I've put it into several dissect episodes, which is when you asked him point blank, like,

Do you see yourself as a Martin Luther, Malcolm X type of figure? Is that what you're striving for? He says, I'm not there yet. But essentially he says, yes, I am actually working toward being that figure. You're moving into that direction because it kind of feels like your career that you're becoming a voice in your generation. Yeah. And that you may be moving into some, you know, Nelson was a great man, Martin, Malcolm, Michael Jack. But it seems like you could

grow into that trajectory. Do you see yourself in that role or is that too premature to say? First off, I would never... It takes years and it takes wisdom to do the work that they've done. Mandela, Martin Luther King...

But for the generation at the time being, I hold myself responsibility to that because I got to see these kids every day. And like I said on "I", they got to have slit wrists and come to me saying they say my music saved their lives and things like that. I got to keep running from that. That's my... Whether I want to like it or not, I got to accept that. You dig what I'm saying? So for this generation, yes. That's really the only time I remember him being asked point blank and him actually answering point blank.

So I think he saw the potential or, well, I don't know. I don't want to speak for him, obviously, but as someone that studied his work, it seems like it was like partly he was anointed, but partly he also accepted the role, at least at that time period. Right. And there's nothing to account for. It's also that's how he was feeling at that time. Exactly. Has his feelings changed? Exactly. But yeah, you're right.

And it's, yeah, I mean, and what I love about his work, about his art, something I think about a lot is like, you know, he tells these, to your point, you know, he's never done anything but share his own experience. And his experience is unique for so many reasons. And

Yet he is able to translate his personal specific, unique experience into something that feels universal, something that feels like it applies to just the human condition in general. And so when you reduce an album, like to pimp a butterfly to its essence, essentially what it confronts is he, you know, I'm misusing my influence as kind of the refrain throughout we hear. And it's like,

He's talking about his specific influence as a public figure, as someone that can bring education back to his home city. And it's very, very unique, very specific. Yet we all have influence. We all make decisions. We are all contributing to the, to the humanity and the human experience and how that becomes reflected in our choices and our decisions and how we treat other people. And so like the essence of the human condition has always been there in his work.

and i feel like him that's kind of just the brilliance of of his work and it was it's always been there but i feel like to pimp a butterfly is really i feel like when he really really articulates that in a way that just just i don't know i don't know if you feel that same connection to the themes even though like there's that it's just a weird dichotomy of like especially with me and where i come from and what you know my genetics and stuff it's like

For however, somehow he just has that gift to like his specific experience comes off with this universal quality. I don't know. Do you feel like that, too? Yeah. You know, I think I think it's relatable to again. I think it kind of goes back to, yes, I'm Kendrick Lamar, you know, but I come from Compton.

And I'm not that different from the guys that I grew up with. I just maybe have a voice. I have a talent. I've been around the world. So, you know, I felt like a lot of that was him striving to connect and not lose that connection because I think it's very easy to lose the connection. You know, I don't come from a great neighborhood. You know what I'm saying? I come from Flatbush, Brooklyn. Like, you know...

Especially in the 80s and 90s, it wasn't a great neighborhood. I have a brother who did prison time. I have another brother who did a bit of jail time. So we grew up in it. I say all that to say, the universal part, I'm getting to the universal part, is every kid in the hood damn near, "Man, when I get some money, man, I'm going to get out of here. I'm going to get me a nice car. I'm going to get me a big house." We talk about not, "Yo, man, I can't wait to get out of here."

And the reality of it is that a lot of us are caught in the cycle and some never get to leave. And then what happens when you do make it out? Then it's that survivor's guilt. We're also taught, "Hey man, don't go back." There's jealousy over there. There's envy. There's hate. You know what I'm saying? But there's a bit of survivor's guilt. Why me? The kids that I grew up with in the park that we all used to play basketball together, they was just as talented. We used to rap together.

They were good. There might've been someone in that part, in that cypher better than me, or was this, or was that, why me? So there's a bit of survivor's guilt in it too. And I think maybe the most relatable thing to Pimp a Butterfly, even if you can't put your finger on it, and because a lot of people, you just listen to music and a lot of people aren't looking for the deeper meaning or to peel back the layers, but it's just the feeling that you get

I think the pain. I think that's a painful album. I remember listening to it and talking to that. Like, oh, he's going through some shit. He's in pain. And I think the other time was Mr. Morale is when we really saw Mr. Morale is another painful album when he's contending with himself. But to Pimple Butterfly is him contending with the world around him and the pain that comes with that is how I took it.

Yeah, one of the most memorable parts of your interview with him, which we can maybe just get into now, is when you guys are talking about some of the controversy and a quote that sticks out. I mean, I watch this... I should say I watch this interview every year. I make it a point to watch this interview that you gave with him every year. I just watched it again yesterday. It's probably my... It's safe to say it's my...

my favorite interview I've ever seen from any artist. It's something I think about a lot, but it anyways, the, the, the line that sticks out a lot from that interview is when he says, you know, I'm not speaking to the community community. I'm not speaking of the community. I am the community.

And then he goes into like, I have done, I have done personally, I have done some things to damage my community. And he like pauses and you can see in his face. I don't even remember if you remember this moment, but you can see in his face, you can see in his face, like something, you know, I'm even getting chills, like thinking about it. Cause it's just so clear how deeply he was feeling that at that moment. And the pain that you're talking about,

These are my experiences. When I say gangbanger made me kill a n***a blacker than me, these are, this is my life that I'm talking about. I'm not saying you, you might not even be in front of the streets. Not every black person is in the gang. Yeah, not in the gang. Or has that experience. You, this, I'm not speaking to the community. I'm not speaking of the community. I am the community. Mm-hmm.

my homeboys those are my real homeboys on my album cover they still over there i said this all the time for people who take that out of context or take anything i say out of context and i'm not even blaming the magazines i'm blaming the people listening to it or reading it know who i am first understand where i come from before you make any remarks because i've i've been through a lot and i've seen a lot and where i come from we i did a lot to tear down my own community so

For you to not recognize that and see 100% flip, please learn it. And the way that translates into a song like you, the way that the catharsis of I, which is, it's interesting to think about I as a theatrical piece at the end of the record because this is his vision of his influence. It's a theatrical piece of this could be a conclusion

If I'm able to translate my message correctly and it's received the way that I want, which essentially he's breaking up this fight and then he tells this poem that relates this idea of royalty and recognizing the roots of African culture and kind of trying to restore that feeling of confidence. And so...

You can see him just really trying on this record and you feel him just really, really trying to give some kind of solution to contribute to the ills in his community. And, you know, you think about an album like Morale, which essentially does the same thing. I mean, he's been doing this. It's just that each album is an iteration of the same goal, the same striving of him trying to give back to his community, trying to help his people and

To the point where it's like, I think that's why even Kodak Black's on Mr. Morale, which you think about To Pimp a Butterfly's album cover, Kodak Black would fit right into that album cover, right? And it's like, to your point about Kendrick being the anointed one and the public perceiving him as this, you know, the rose that grew from concrete, which he is, but at the same time, he is...

He has made it a point to not separate himself. As much as the public separates him from his background, it feels like, he is always trying to say, no, this is where I'm from. This is who I am. You guys see me as the savior, as this intellect, as this exception, but I'm not. And I think Kodak as a symbol of him being

And his community was a kind of a potent expression of what he's been trying to do in, in addressing a problem that he's been trying to address his entire career. And it's just been different iteration. I mean, in GNX, I feel like is you were in the Superbowl performance, right? Like he's been iterating on this same theme and giving game back to,

To his community throughout. And it's been interesting to just follow his discography and how his relationship or how his messaging or how that, you know, or even just his own comfort in this role and how to best use it. I don't know. I feel like not to get too far away from Potempa Butterfly, but it does feel like his current condition, his current.

There's a freedom. There's a liberation to Kendrick Lamar right now. I don't know if you feel that in GNX or just any of the moves he's made. It feels like he, I don't know, there's just a, I don't know if it confidence the right word or just like there's a self-assertion.

yeah maybe it is just confidence like it just feels like he's in a better place and it there's a freedom to his music and his in his moves right now that feel different than like a tip of a butterfly in your interview with him at that time do you feel that too yeah um and i haven't i haven't seen or exposed him personally um in during this run um

But when we sat down in that room, there was a weight to that conversation. You could hear a pin drop. And there were other people in the room, in the background. It didn't feel like the cameras were there. We were just talking after a while. I didn't even know that the cameras were there. And we were really just having a conversation. And he and I

had a relationship years previous to that. So there was things that we talked about off camera or things that led to maybe a familiarity of he knew who I was and what my intention was. And I knew who he was and what his intentions was as an artist and a man. And I think that came through in the interview. It really was just a conversation. I didn't know. I can feel it in the room. I remember leaving that interview

Rob Markman: And somebody was like, "Well, how did it go?" And I was like, "I think it went well." It was a great conversation. I knew it was a great conversation. I was like, "I don't know what the rest of the world is going to ... if the people will feel that way," but I knew it was a great conversation. I almost didn't know how to ...

I didn't know what the expectations were going to be, and it surpassed my expectations. Maybe I set the bar low in my mind, so maybe. I wouldn't be disappointed by how the work was received. But whatever it was, I was happy and satisfied with the conversation, with the open and the honesty that he had, particularly that moment that you talk about when we talk about Black in the Berry, where he pauses, where he talks about, I am the community. That wasn't a canned answer. That wasn't

a publicist talking point and and just not that anybody's ever charged me of this in this interview but none of that interview was there wasn't any and and i don't i don't do that like you have to trust me if you're going to sit with me but there was no approved questions here are the talking points here's what you can ask here's what you can't ask there was none of that

And they didn't ask me for that. It was just complete trust going in there. So what you saw during that, he didn't know that question was coming. Right. Quite like that. He didn't know that that's where the conversation was going to go. So, I mean, you saw a very real answer in a very real moment. And I was happy and honored that he could be a...

candid like that and open and human. I think what we saw was though it was on MTV, though the cameras were there, what we saw was a very human moment. That wasn't a produced moment. That wasn't the thing you, you got to be a fly on the wall of, of two guys just having a conversation. Um, we didn't do too many edits to it. We didn't cut. I don't think we cut anything out. Yeah. I get it.

Yeah, I was going to say that that's the reason why I love it so much is because you can tell there is a rapport between you guys. You could tell he was comfortable talking to you. He respected you not only as a hip hop historian and journalist, but also as an emcee. He kind of mentioned that at one point, kind of alluded to that. I don't know if you know, nobody else caught that again. That was like the inside. You're the first person that ever caught that. But yeah, yeah, there was that.

Because I would send records to Kendrick. Yo, what do you think of this? What do you think of this? I mean, this is an aside. I remember one time I sent him a record off of my first album. It was a storytelling record. And he was like, yo, that's just, yo, you're a storyteller. Like, that's your thing. And he bigged me up. He gave me so much confidence. Nah, dog, you're a storyteller. And then I think three days later, Damn came out or leaked or something. But Damn came out and I heard Duckworth.

and I hit him and I was like, man, go to hell. He's telling me how great of a storyteller I am. And then three days later, I'm like, bro, leave me alone. I don't even want to talk to you. But yeah, man. But to your point of your question of has he changed or does he feel freer now or just for me from the outside looking in, because like I said, I haven't really sat with him

I've spoken to him, you know, during, during this time. Yeah, it looks like it. And, but I think a lot of that is from the work that he's done on himself. Yeah. And I, and I think was evident in Mr. Morale. I think Mr. Morale was the, um,

was the product was the end result of, I think he does the work on himself and then you can make a record like Mr. Morale and tell the story. Um, so I think he comes out of that chain, um, you know, and, and he's, he's talking about different things, right. Um, I'm going to mess it up and you know, there's better than I am on reincarnated. Um, he talked about doing, um, what's the therapy. Uh, it's a certain past life regression, past life regression therapy, like,

I had to look that up. But he's obviously working on himself. You know what I'm saying? He's obviously doing things to figure out who he is, his place in the universe, whatever

and lineage and whatever he believe. I wouldn't dare speak for him or whatever, but it's clear through the lyrics he's doing work for himself. So I think the maybe more free, looser version of him that you see on GNX, still very serious, still very intentional,

Still a man on a mission who's dedicated to his mission. But I think this version of what we see is a product of the work he's done on himself that we heard on Mr. Morale. Yeah, I think so too. And he kind of alluded to that fact in the one interview he's given recently with Apple Music.

And just saying, you know, GNX was the perfect kind of energy post morale. And I think, yeah, a lot of the work that you, that was done on Mr. Morale, you know, the, the fruits of that labor is felt in a GNX that does feel very like fun. You know, there's a lot of fun and funny moments and light moments, but

Of course, he's very serious and to your point, but there's a lot of like just kind of jokes on there. You know, there's a lot of funny moments, which we didn't really get on Mr. Morale, you know, or even on Damn. Or I mean, really, really, you have to go back to Good Kid, Mad City to get some of those moments. But yeah, let's I want to hang on the interview. Just one more question, because.

I don't know. I just wanted you to, is there anything else about that day or about that interview that maybe we didn't, weren't privy to that you could share? You know, any anecdote that sticks out from that day or? You saw most of it. I'm telling you, we went into the hotel.

There wasn't a whole lot of time before the interview. We started. He walked in and we basically started. And we did the interview, took a few pictures and left. And everything that needed to be said. And I don't love to do... It's good to catch up, yo, how you been? But man, let's save it for when the cameras are rolling. Let's save the talk. I remember Top was there. Yeah.

It wasn't like a big entourage. You know what I'm saying? A couple of MTV was a small crew. I do remember just some behind the scenes from MTV. They wanted me, my superiors who I answered to, wanted me to do a different interview. They wanted a different interview.

I was being asked to, and I forget for the life of me, I tried to look it up before the interview, I forget, but there was some scandal on some college campus, a racism, maybe a professor used the N-word or something like that. Yeah.

And I forget, for the life of me, I couldn't. And then when I tried to Google with it, you just seen so many examples of it in 2015. But there was a college scandal. There was a racism college scandal. And TMZ was covering it. Everybody was covering it at the time. So I was getting these requests like, ask him about this. Ask him what he thinks about this. Ask him. And all in an effort to get a viral bite, a viral clip, a viral moment to go on TMZ. And I'm like, that's not my interview.

Like, I'm not ... Like, yo, have you heard this album? That was my pushback. Have you heard this album? Rob Markman: Right. Rob Markman: We only have an hour to do this, and I have too many questions about the layers on this album to start going fishing for headlines. I call it ... And there's no disrespect to TMZ, but they have the ... And especially in 2015, they had this style of interviewing and this mode of telling stories.

That was theirs and they were successful at it and obviously built an audience for it.

But I was a music journalist. I didn't even see myself as an entertainment journalist. I don't care about who you're dating. I don't care about, you know what I'm saying? Like, yo, I want the music. This is my lane. And being at MTV, I fought for that. So they asked me to ask these questions and I said, no. And then, no, you got to ask these questions. And finally, I got sick of arguing. I was like, all right, I'll tack them on at the end of my interview.

knowing damn well. And then I was going to... Knowing damn well, I'm like, "I'm not doing that shit, no way." The interview could be 15 minutes long, I'm not tagging it in. And everyone that came back, they were like, "Hey, did you ask those questions?" I was like, "Man, we ran out of time. He had to go." So I absolutely didn't ask questions. But I came back and they were like, "How did it go?" And I was like, "It was important. I knew it was important. It was a great conversation. I didn't know how." So I said, "Hey,

And it was for Dot Com, I work for MTV News. So I was like, "Hey, can we air this on MTV proper?"

Like, can we cut up interstitials just maybe a little bit to moments and put it in between commercials? And it was like, you know, like Team Mom was coming on that night or something. It was like, no. Like, literally got laughed out the room. And to my credit, it's like to get something aired on TV day of or the day after, oh, my God, you need several layers of approval. There was no way that was going to happen. But I asked. I asked at least my boss.

superior at the time who was running mtv news can we air that i i think we should air this yeah well the the views on youtube speak for themselves well yeah we'll get to that and so so so i got laughed out the room uh-huh now you're not gonna hear this mtv had a sister station mtv jams okay still a cable network but it wasn't the mtv proper they just played music videos all day

At the time, it was being run by a gentleman. I love him so much, Yomi Desilu. And their commercial space wasn't... They weren't getting as much ad revenue as... It was a smaller channel. So we couldn't get it on MTV proper. So I hit Yomi up. Hey, man, I just did this amazing interview with Kendrick Lamar. Would you be interested in airing it on MTV Jams? Yeah, send it to me. I'll air it commercial free, uncut. Wow.

And so we shot it and the very next day it aired on MTV Jams uncut. And we also put it online. So shout out to Yomi Desilu for that. Because, again, you know, when you in these buildings, there's certain ones of us that are from the culture and come from it. And yes, we think with a business mind, but we also think with a cultural mind. And Yomi is one of those guys and was like, yo, this is important. Yes, it's Kendrick Lamar. And when he saw it, he aired it uninterrupted.

And it was just amazing, man. Look, the other thing is Kendrick did a couple of interviews that day. I know he definitely went to the Breakfast Club. Shout out to Charlamagne. Shout out to Envy. Those are my people. You can tell because he's wearing the same outfit. Yeah, yeah. So he was in New York doing press. Yeah. And with all respect to everywhere else that he sat with, the one that we did together is the one that everybody remembers and comes back to.

And I'm thankful for that. You know, I just think it sounds weird. I just think like God was in the room. Like it was just a good energy. I think maybe for what people don't understand to working within MTV and I say certain ones of us are cultural, others are business. We had to fight for these interviews. Yeah. It wasn't like whoever was sitting at the top was like, we need the Kendrick Lamar now. Right. Right.

Like it wasn't a mandate. Oh, it became because after the interview was done, they took it to upfronts. They put it in front of advertisers. They said how great it was. Right, right, right, right. Classic. And this and that nature. And so thank God that I stuck to my guns. And MTV should thank me as well because then they put something in front of advertisers to get more advertising dollars. Who knows what?

If they would have been able to do that, if I start asking him all the TMZ type questions they want to ask him. Right. So just for the audience to know is that we fight like it's not a given. We fight to kind of keep the scope on the cultural relevance of these interviews. And a lot of times we don't get support at the places that we work to actually do this stuff. So shout out to all the journalists out there who fight the good fight.

Yeah, I was going to say, I think artists would do more interviews if the interviews were more like the one you and Kendrick had, because to your point, you know, there is pressure to just get viral clips and to ask the salacious questions. And as an artist, you know, that that's not interesting that you're not talking about the work or the art. So I get why artists, especially now where it just people are trying to bait you to go viral, right?

There's an inauthenticity, I feel like, in a lot of the podcast interviews. This is not specific to music, of course. You see it everywhere. But it's great to have something like your interview stand the test of time, still gets views. I was looking at the comments yesterday. People are still commenting on it. People are saying, oh, I just watched the Super Bowl performance and came here. And it's like...

you know, that's what happens when you make something of a quality when God's in the room, as you say, when two people are connecting on a, just a basic human level, talking about art and using art to facilitate conversations about the human condition and what the fuck we're all doing here. And, you know, all sharing this life experience together. I mean, that's, that's essentially what you guys tapped into. You know, I think that's, that's why, uh,

why I returned to it, you know, and it is the definitive Kendrick Lamar interview in my mind. So before we get out of here, I wanted to talk about the album to be a butterfly. Now, you know, 10 years later, I recently revisited the album. It's funny. This is, this is probably the most important album. I should probably say this at some point in the podcast. This is probably the most important album in my lifetime. It, you know, the,

there's the idea of like an album changed your life and you know obviously that it's very true for for for many people and but for this case for me for tempeh butterfly it like quite literally changed my life wow the concept of dissect started from when i first heard this album which my personal experience with the album was my first daughter was born on march 14th this album comes out march 15th and the first time i listened to this album was with my newborn daughter

in my arms the first time we took her home. I'm listening with headphones on as she's sleeping in my arms. It's like 5.30 a.m. in the morning. The sunlight, the sunrise is coming through the window. It's like this picture-perfect thing. And I'm listening to this album and had this just incredible experience listening to it for the first time with my daughter in my arms. And the themes of the album, the story, the narrative, all the layers, everything.

The Tupac interview, it was just so much thematic and conceptual things going on. I was like, I need to sit down and study this in the same way I used to study music in college and write essays and research and all that. And so essentially Dissect, the concept, was born out of this album.

So it changed my life materially. It's changed my life on a, you know, just conceptually thematically on a human level. And, and it's funny, even though it's probably like the most important album in my lifetime, I don't actually listen to it that often because it's,

because it is so so heavy to me and it's like it's you know it's not like it's like it's not a movie you can put on in the background right like if you're going to listen to this album for me it's like i gotta be i gotta be listening and it's hard to pluck a song out of context you're not putting these songs on playlist to me um so every time i listen to it um it's always kind of an experience and so i i did listen to it in full yesterday in preparation for this um

I have some thoughts about what stuck out this time, but I'm curious to know how it hits your ears these days. Yeah. Real quick, too. That's such a beautiful one. Beautiful. I love that we should all have albums, and I hope we all have albums that affect us this way, pieces of art that affect us this way. And I love the point that you made about how you don't revisit it often because it's such a heavy listen. You got to sit and listen to it. And that's such a beautiful point because...

So much nowadays, the audience, we equate greatness with consumption. Yeah. With the amount of consumption. And that is such a false equivalency. The amount of times that you stream or listen to something or that something is streamed or listened to does not dictate its greatness, not even remotely. So I'm glad you made that point. As far as what sticks out to me, I love King Kunta. It's just the energy of that record. Yeah.

I mean, All Right is just going to be an all-time classic, but I didn't realize that I enjoyed These Walls so much. Going back to These Walls, I'm just like, yo, this is an amazing song. You know what I'm saying? Just the everything to it. And Black of the Berry still feels as urgent to me as when I first heard it. It is kind of scary to...

that so much of what he's talking about in this album is still prevalent. And how much a dollar costs is just as healing to me as it was, maybe now even more so.

it's kind of the ones that kind of stick out. But it is kind of sad. We think that things change through art in generations previous to us. Marvin Gaye, "What's Going On?" and Bob Marley's discography, how art, particularly music, can heal the world, can mark a time, could help spark change. And I was listening to the album and the sad part, I think Kendrick has an evolution

You know what I'm saying? I think society, you know, listen to it. It's like, wow, I think it's 10 years later and we're dealing with a lot of the same shit kind of made me sad. Yeah. That, that, that with the Tupac interview is when I felt that because even Kendrick says in the interview itself, like a lot of this, or no, it is in your interview. He said a lot of this stuff he was talking about back then still going on today. And these were words for today. And then I, you know, you hear it now today, 10 years later. And it's like, when I heard, um,

uh people are tired of uh running in the stores and the next time it you know there's going to be bloodshed i'm just like that feels closer than ever um yeah and yeah it's um i think for me the yeah the thematics of it obviously are just yeah just feel universal feel timeless feel uh relevant uh you know for better for worse obviously and

I think for me, what really struck me now, a few things when I was listening back was just so much, just how much he accomplished on one record. This, the record is so ambitious. You think about it like,

In theory, if someone were pitching you to this record, right? And it's like, I'm going to start with this Boris Gardner sample and it's going to come back at, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to, on I, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to, it's the N word. Every N word is a star is going to make sense in a totally new way. When I call back to this royalty theme, I'm going to have,

Essentially, the history of Black American music influenced this entire project. It's going to have jazz. It's going to have funk. It's going to have yada, yada, yada. Also, I'm going to have two main characters, Uncle Sam and Lucy. And I'm going to tell this story.

linear story across the whole thing. Oh, and I'm going to intersperse a poem in it. Also, I'm going to read a poem in a live performance at the end. I'm also going to read a poem to Tupac and I'm going to have, you know what I mean? It's like all these things like stack up and you're just like, how is this ever going to just not sound like all over the place? Like yet it sounds cohesive. It sounds timeless. It doesn't sound of any era. That's what that really struck me too. It's like, okay, bring us back to 2015 and,

And this was made in 2015 and released. Then it's like, it doesn't sound like 2015. It doesn't sound like 2025. It sounds like to pimp a butterfly, you know, there's, it's a singular, it's a truly singular work of art. It's, it's, it's funny that in that, like there are some, there are some albums that are influential, um,

Yet you can't pinpoint what the, like, you can't look at like another album and say, oh, to pimp a butterfly influence that because no one else can make this right. You can be influenced by to pimp a butterfly conceptually or take something from it, but you can't mimic it. You can't imitate it. Right. And like that to me speaks like all the timeless records that we think of when we think about the history of music, uh,

they have that same quality where it's like you know it's influential yet it's never been recreated because it is so singular and that was something that really jumped out just how ambitious it was how it was his second record and he's young and yet he was able to execute it flawlessly in my opinion um and somehow was able to tie all these threads together to create something that is not only cohesive that not only works on a commercial level

but it's like cathartic. It has, it pays off on what it sells, right? Like it doesn't just, it doesn't work on paper. You actually feel it in the music. You feel when you get to I, you feel when he talks to Tupac, all the things that he's set up throughout the album and how the catharsis pays off, just like a great movie. And if the final resolution, you actually feel it in your soul. And I feel like that's,

That's part of what makes this thing so timeless and special is because it is so ambitious. It does speak to timeless human kind of condition qualities. It speaks to the now. It speaks to the past. It speaks to the future. It is just such an incredible work of art. It's art. It's art. It wasn't made. And we can't make any mistake.

This is the music business. Kendrick is also, as much as the artist he is, he is one of the most successful artists that we've seen. Kendrick is not in this to not be successful. Kendrick is not in this to not sell records. Right. But I don't think that's his North Star. I don't think that's his guiding principle. I don't think that's his reason for being. And I say all that beautiful that this album was successful. This type of album couldn't have been born in an Interscope marketing meeting.

Right. It wasn't born in a boardroom. It was birthed by artists, by Kendrick and Soundwave, Thundercat. Right. Whoever is in that room, you know what I'm saying? Ali with the mixing, you know what I'm saying? It is birthed by the creatives. It is art. And then the label figures out how to market it and sell it to us. Right. Yeah.

Yeah, shout out to TDE for allowing him to take such a risk early on. But they do. Look at Top. I think that's their MO. I think that's the credit of TDE. Look at Dochi. All this conversation around Dochi now. Alligator Bites Never Heals, a brilliant project, a brilliant body of work. What did it sell? The streaming equivalent sales was $11,000. First week, $11,000, yeah. Yeah.

And they didn't give up on it. Yeah. And they still worked it. And people are confused by that because we don't normally see that. The first week consumption dictates, can we go further with your album? Yeah. And what TDE consistently says is, do the art and then we'll figure it out. Yeah. And they let their artists do the art.

And I think it's beautiful. I'm encouraged by what they're doing right now with Dolce, and I see a lot of people confused by it. But again, I remember when Illmatic came out the first week, it may be 57, 59,000. Imagine if Columbia Records gives up on Nas because the first week number wasn't they expected. Right.

Notorious B.I.G., "Ready to Die" did that same thing, maybe $55,000, $57,000 first week. Imagine if Bad Boy and Arista at the time give up on Notorious B.I.G. because his first week number wasn't what ... Could you see what we lose? Thank God that they haven't given up on their artists. Thank God that they allow their artists to create art and push their artists to create art.

and not product. And then we'll figure out how to sell the art, how to market the art, how to position the art in the marketplace to be competitive. But it starts with the artists. Yeah. It's such a, it's a, yeah, especially in this day and age, it's, it's, it's special to have TDE as the North star for artists in terms of a label that is actually prioritizing quality prior, pushing their artists further to make great art. Um,

It feels more important to have that now than ever. And look, it doesn't always work to the extent of, you know, I don't know how commercially successful. Blue Lips, again, I thought fantastic album last year. You know, it didn't break sales records or do anything. But thank God it exists. And Q seems to be very happy and content with his place in life. And like sometimes it doesn't work. Sometimes it's not the big hit.

And they still haven't abandoned what they believe, which is cool. You know what I'm saying? Because at the end of the day, the numbers go up, the numbers go down. But did we make compelling art? Did we make art that was worth something? Yeah. Yeah.

You know, we need to get back to that, man. Too much of this is being born in a boardroom, is being born in a marketing room, and then the marketing dictates the art or the business dictates the art. Now it's the other way around. Yeah.

Well, I think to Bimba Butterfly and your interview is a testament to that principle. So I think that's a great, beautiful note to end on. Rob, thank you so much for joining and celebrating this work of art with me 10 years later. Again, can't believe it's been 10 years, but I appreciate your time, man. Cold world. Appreciate you too. Thank you for having me, man. All right, man. See you. Cool. Peace.