The Search for Self-Love with podcaster Lewis Howes
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When someone feels guilt or shame about their financial situation, what is the first step to address those negative feelings and start fixing the problem? I'm going to say something you're not going to like. Because I'm speaking in words and terminology. As long as you don't say, find your bliss. I'm pretty much going to be all in for it. Loving yourself is fine.

Have you ever had that thought flash through your brain? Do people really like me? I mean, sure, they laugh at my jokes, but do they really like me? Or why haven't they texted me back? I mean, damn it, I knew I shouldn't have worded that last text the way I did. What do we do to make sure we don't fall into a spiral of self-doubt?

The self-help world may have some answers, but too often it can get a little woo-woo and not, well, that helpful. That's why I sat down with Lewis Howes, former pro athlete, best-selling author, and host of the podcast The School of Greatness to get actionable. We unpacked our insecurities and so much more. How can we all get to the place where we can say to ourselves truly...

I really love myself. This is a bit of optimism. What was your question? What's the biggest challenge you're facing emotionally or mentally right now? Okay. So, Lewis, what's the biggest challenge you're facing emotionally or mentally right now? Are we rolling? Yeah, sure. Okay. It's continuing to learn to say no to a lot.

and being okay with not doing everything. And for me, it's like, there's so many ways that I could do things or make money or that are exciting and reminding myself to just say no and wait until it really feels aligned. - If you're trying to learn to say no better, why were you saying yes before? - Scarcity.

- Scarcity mindset? - Yeah, needing validation and feeling scarce, like I don't have everything I need. So I need to go say yes to every project, everything, be everywhere, travel,

accomplish, accomplish so that I can feel more worthy and deserving and feel like I've got something saved up as well. Are you saying no now because now you have an abundance mindset? You're saying no now because you have enough? I like validation, if I'm being honest, but I don't need it as much.

It's not that I don't need it. I still enjoy validation, but I'm not creating to get validation. - So when you talk about validation, you're talking about likes on a post, size of an audience. - People telling you you're amazing or I like this thing or whatever. Like for example, yesterday I was having breakfast after a workout with my business partner.

And we're having breakfast and I noticed someone was like kind of looking over at us from the side of the restaurant. I was like, oh, I don't know. Maybe they know who I am. Maybe not. But they were just kind of like smiling and looking over. I was like, oh, I'm nodding. I asked for the check and the waiter came up and said, oh, they just paid for your meal. They're big fans. And I just thought that's really kind. That's really generous. It's really nice. It's a nice little validation. It's not like I was looking for that to happen. And I went out and I said thank you to them. I'm not just going to run away. Sure.

It's not needing validation. I feel really peaceful with where I'm at. And I think it's because for 15, 20 years, I drove my goals towards accomplishing so that people could see me and validate me and feel filled up from other people. Right. And I've said no to a lot of people and I've kind of cut relationships. Not cut is a bad word, but I've

I just have less strong relationships because I don't need to have everyone to like me anymore. Okay, so let's unpack this a little bit. I just got married. Yes, congratulations. And I'm investing in that relationship and a few key relationships to give me what I need, really, as opposed to let me succeed at everything and have everyone in the world love me.

And I think I've gotten to the point over the last 12 years of kind of being on this healing journey and just reflection journey while taking extreme actions on accomplishing and achieving goals and building business and driving and saying yes to everything. I'm getting to a point where I feel like I am enough with where I'm at right now. Now, it doesn't mean I don't want to go create more. Wait, wait, wait, wait.

I am enough with what I have now? No, with what I've created and who I am right now. Okay, what I've created and who I am are not the same thing. With what I've created, I feel like I am enough, but it's not necessarily an external thing. It's more like how I've created myself. Okay. I feel like I am enough now. But it doesn't mean I don't have goals and dreams that I want to go pursue and accomplish. So you said you've been on a 12-year healing journey. Yes. Healing from what?

the demons inside of me that have driven me to be a accomplishing machine, the triggers and the traumas that have made me say horrible things about myself to myself, the triggers and traumas that have cultivated me into just living a life where I don't feel peace. And I've tried to unwind and unpack all those things over the last 12 years, really when I started School of Greatness, by interviewing people like you, therapists, other people, and then doing things

tons of just inner work therapeutic work to find out how to create wholeness within me emotionally spiritually your demons drove you to accomplish I think so yeah say more I never felt enough and I always felt abused and taken advantage of I was sexually abused when I was five years old by a man that I didn't know I've talked about this many times publicly but that story that wound

drove me unconsciously and probably consciously for 25 years of my life until I started to talk about it and started the process and heal it when I hit about 30 years old.

12 years ago. And all I wanted to do was accomplish to kind of run away from the pain, run away from the wound and feel worthy and deserving and enough. Cause I never felt enough. Cause I felt like if I was enough, why would someone sexually abuse me? Why would these kids pick on me? Why would they pick me last in the sports playground? Why would they steal money from me? Why would they let you all these things?

And so I didn't feel enough. So I had to go prove to others who picked on me that I was worthy and I was enough. And I don't think it was consciously like, I'm going to go prove this, but it was, it was the story that was driving me. And those wounds, those triggers, those traumas guided me and some beautiful things came out of it, right? It's like I was, I would accomplish. I became financially free. I got off my sister's couch that I was living on for a year and a half and

It drove me to figure things out, to overcome fears, to accomplish things, to get on my own two feet per se.

But what I realized when I hit 30, that I had accomplished all these things, but still didn't feel enough. So what's the point of having everything that other people want and not loving yourself and still feeling all the pain inside? So if I accomplish these things, then I'll feel worthy. That's a very powerful driver, right? It makes sense why you would become a professional athlete. It makes sense why you would be a very successful entrepreneur. Because if I just...

win this medal, win this competition. If I just make the money, then that feeling of I'm not enough will finally go away, which totally makes sense as an internal driver. And then you accomplish it all and the feeling doesn't show up. Then now what? I worked my whole life for this and these goals are happening and now I've got money in the bank and I've got this relationship, but why am I unhappy? So for me, it was a big wake-up call at 30 that I was like,

okay, all the things that I thought would make me happy are not making me happy. And so I need to go figure out what that is. And it took a while. Are you happy now? Very happy. It doesn't mean I don't have moments of stress and chaos and sadness. But you like yourself now. Love is a strong word, but I love the man I'm becoming because on a daily basis, I really try to recorrect my thinking, my words, my intentions towards...

what is in alignment with my values. I mean, I don't know, it just sounds weird. I love myself, but I really, I really love and appreciate that I am showing up for me and essentially saying I am the hero that my younger child always wished he had. Like I'm the adult in the room that's like taking care of the little boy who felt lost, insecure, taken advantage of, unsure of himself, doubting himself. Like I'm doing the things that I wish

I could have done back then. And kind of like creating this wholeness within me where I'm feeling more at peace. What do you tell your friends who are on a similar journey, who are trying to find the, I like myself or you know what, the amount of followers I have or the amount of money I have

is not correlated to my self-worth. Yeah, or my net worth is not my self-worth. Well, what was the thing I asked you when we sat down and I connected with you? When we sat down today, what was the first thing I asked you? What am I grateful for? And then I said, what's the biggest challenge you're going through mentally and emotionally in your life right now? For me, it's just trying to ask questions to just see how people are feeling and how they're thinking and where their head space and heart space is at.

And I do it with as many people as I can. It's not like I'm perfect every day with this, but the people I care about are people in my life I try to just listen. I think you learn a lot by how people respond to specific questions. - For example? - What are you grateful for? A simple question. You said, "I'm grateful that I'm taking back control of my company and I'm getting in founder mode and I'm really excited." And you shifted into this childlike energy. And I was like, "That's cool." Whereas I've seen you in the past before where you were like,

just this struggle and this thing and this, I've got too much going on. And it's like, you can, I'm reading the energy that you're expressing. Not really what you're saying, but more the joy. And I'm like, oh great, you're on the right path. It doesn't mean you're going to have it all figured out, but it's like, okay, cool. And then I followed up with,

What are you struggling with emotionally or mentally right now? Personally, professionally, whatever it might be. And you didn't answer it. You just asked me it because we started. So I didn't get to see what's going on. But I think these line of questioning people, not in a negative way, but just a curious way where you can connect with friends, family, colleagues, business people, whatever, to help just nudge them on a path to supporting people.

I think that's what we all want. That's what our teams want. This is what our friends want. This is what our family wants from us. But they want us to listen.

Yeah, ain't that the truth? What we're talking about is doing real work on yourself, re-understanding your own perception of self and the world in which you operate, that you can take actual, real, tangible steps to find calm, self-love, inspiration, joy, opposite of loneliness. Yes. And those are the things that I think you and I, especially for what we do in writing books and giving talks and all of these things and podcasts, I think we have a responsibility to translate...

The woo woo. You and I live in Los Angeles. I know a lot of people who do the woo woo thing. They say all the words. They have no idea what they're talking about. And they're a mess. Right. And it's an absolute performative nonsense. Right. I think we have a responsibility to translate this stuff so that more people can find that feeling that you are finding. Yeah. And it's not 24 seven. I have this feeling, but it's a constant practice.

daily. Right. This is really interesting to me because I'm on the same journey, right? And I want to know what to do on Monday. Yes. Right. Somebody says, have a gratitude practice. Okay. Okay. I tried it and I am not, it's, it's a good thing. I believe in gratitude. Yes. Right. But to have a gratitude practice where you sit down and write every morning what you're grateful for. And after most of it, not every day, but almost every day was like, uh,

My sister, my family, my amazing team.

love my cat, grateful for the life I live. And like every now and then I get something new in there, but like every day I struggle to find something new besides let's say four or five things. - Why does it have to be new? Why does it have to be new? - Well, that's, so is that enough to simply say I'm grateful for my family, my team, my cat? - Yes. I think it's the practice of gratitude is the enoughness. It's not about how many find 20 things every day and find new things. I think it's the, just the art of gratitude practice daily.

for a few moments. It doesn't have to be like, let me get into a Zen meditative state for 60 minutes. You don't need a gratitude journal. Yeah, exactly. I don't need any of that. You can if you like. I mean, if you're in, you know. For me, it's just three things that the night with me, now I get to say wife. I just got married a few weeks ago and it's been so weird to go from girlfriend to fiance to wife and saying those words. But for years since we got together, it's what are just three things? What are three things you're grateful for? And I say the same, say my three things as well.

I like doing that when I go to sleep. It just helps me get more peaceful, just helps me like calm down my mind from stress. It's just hard to be grateful and angry at the same time. I think it's challenging to do those two things. So it just flips you into a more restful state.

And I think gratitude is the gateway to abundance, even though those words may seem like woo-woo-y to you, but I just truly believe like the more grateful that I am, I feel like I can receive more as well. And if you think gratitude is woo-woo and it doesn't work for you, cool, don't do it. Be generous instead. Get out of self, self-loathing, self-pities, self-doubt, and get into service to someone else. These may not be the

analytical and intelligence, you know, words that people listening or watching may be thinking about where they need some productivity hacks or something. I'm a simple guy and I don't understand those words. I don't understand that language, but I understand reading people and just saying, are you stressed or do you seem like you're living in joy? And I would,

believed to say everyone watching and listening wants less stress and more joy. So I try as a simple man from Ohio, I try to simplify my life. And by being in too much chaos, it creates more stress by being grateful for what I have and by being generous for what I can provide. Even if I have no money,

That brings me joy. I think that is very practical. And you're right, which is to use regular language like stress and joy. Yes. I don't want stress and I do want joy. Exactly. Perfect segue. One of the biggest sources of stress in people's lives, it destroys relationships, money, and our relationship with money.

And I know that you are now very focused on helping people overcome the stress that money sometimes gives us. Yes. Why does money cause us stress? I think it's all in our interpretation of money. For some people, it doesn't cause them stress. I think it's the relationship with money, and it's all based on our money story. So I had different stories that caused little wounds or little traumas within me psychologically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, that

that created a nervous system or a feeling that felt unsafe, that felt scarce when money was involved. When I was eight years old, my brother went to prison for four and a half years for selling drugs to an undercover cop. He was 11 years older than me, so he was 19, fresh in college, went to prison.

selling LSD to an undercover cop. This was in the 90s when the war against drugs was a big thing. And so it was like your first offense, you're in for the maximum sentence. So it was six to 25 years was the sentence. He got off in four and a half on good behavior. That event was very traumatizing for our family. Growing up in a small town in the middle of Ohio, we were lower middle class. So all the money and resources went to lawyers and just like dealing with that.

Now the traumas after that, it was like, okay, I didn't have friends really for four and a half years because you small town, everyone knows everyone's business on the block in the suburbs. Everyone knew my brother went to prison. So you were treated like a pariah is like your family. It's just like they're the other kids weren't able to hang out with me. Right. It's like, okay, he, he must be a bad kid too. Yeah. And so around this time, a couple of kids down the street were starting a club. I don't know if you were ever in any kids clubs growing up. Right.

And it was like in their parents' basement. They're going to whatever, do stuff. And I was like, I want to be in the club. I just wanted friends. I had no friends. And they said, okay, there's two ways you can get into the club. Either you have to pay or you have to answer some questions. And they asked me the questions. I didn't know the answers. So I felt less than. I felt dumb. I felt insignificant already there.

And they said, "Okay, you have to pay $5 to be in the club." So I went home and I asked my mom, "Hey, mom, these kids want me to be a part of the club, but I need $5." And she kind of looked at me disappointed. Not that I didn't have friends. I mean, she was sad for me, but she was disappointed because she didn't have money. We had enough to like feed and like pay for rent, but it wasn't this abundance. Many of the conversations I remember hearing between my parents were arguments, many of them.

slamming of doors, screaming, someone running away. And it tied around money somehow. We don't have enough. We can't pay for this. Our son is in prison and we have legal fees and all these different things. So there was always this fear and anxiety around it that created my nervous system.

And so anyways, when I came back and asked her for money, and she said, let's go to the couch and let's start flipping over things. Literally, I get chills thinking about this because my mom is picking out change from the couch. And maybe in 30 or 40 minutes, she finds enough change in the couch and the drawers and puts it in a shoebox for me to walk back to this house so I could be in the club so I could have some friends.

I take the box, I walk back, I give it to them. For the next hour in the basement, these two kids are just hanging out by themselves, just doing whatever. And I'm kind of just sitting there alone, still not in the club, even though I've paid my dues. And I remember just walking home feeling so humiliated, so less than, so unworthy of

of love, of acceptance, of friendship, of anything. I'm not smart enough to be in the club and I had to pay for friends. - And that didn't even work. - And that didn't even work. It didn't even work for me. So it's just, it's like a, I call it a money wound. An emotional wound tied around money, around my brother, around that.

So I had all these different stories that created a belief around money that was connected to how I felt about money, my feelings, my energy. And it created a scarce energy. All right. Let me ask you a couple of questions. Yes. When someone feels guilt or shame about their financial situation, what is the first step to address those negative feelings and start fixing the problem? I'm going to say something you're not going to like. Why do you...

Because I'm speaking in words and terminology that... As long as you don't say, find your bliss. I'm pretty much going to be all in for it. Loving yourself is fine. The first thing that's coming up for me is reflecting on your money story. The things that you asked me about, can you share some of these stories, these traumas, these triggers that made you feel emotionally, mentally or physically unsafe tied to money?

And I can remember some of these stories. So whether they're reflecting on them, writing them down and being aware of them, the only way that's good. I know. I think it's good. And I'm going to say something else, which I don't think you're like, I feel like my, my,

Being able to communicate certain challenges that I faced as a child or as a teen or as an adult through breakups or anything else that caused me pain. Being able to reflect on them, think about them, either write them down or speak about them allowed me to create awareness and perspective, allowed me to separate myself from them so I could see them separately and not just be in them. Whether you call that workshopping, coaching, therapy, whatever you want to call it, having a space where you can

see yourself from the problem or the pain and then start finding a way to realign and integrate the lessons from that. So get some perspective, find the lesson from the blessings, from the meaning of it, the pain and say, okay, how do I want to start thinking and acting differently from this pain? I don't want to live this way anymore. I don't want to have this pain anymore. I need to think in a different way. I need to act in a different way and I need to see that.

a consistent result of me integrating these lessons. And it's going to take time. You call that workshopping, coaching, therapy, whatever it might be. So for me, as weird as it sounds, it's taking yourself to money therapy.

And doing that with your money. I think that's brilliant. Money therapy and following a process. Yeah. It's a relationship. So if you have a struggle relationship with your parents or your spouse or whoever, you do therapy. So you do money therapy like you do relationship therapy. Money therapy. And if money walked in the door right now, imagine money was a person. Yeah. Hypothetically, it's a person. Identify money as a person. And it walked in the door right now. What would your first emotional reaction or what would you do if you saw money come in as a person?

What would that relationship be like with you and money? Yeah. Why would you think I wouldn't like that? That is brilliant. Okay. I think it's brilliant. But what would that relationship be for you right now? Are you asking me? I'm asking the question. I would say there would be slight tension. Okay. It was someone I used to hate because I was just super judgmental and never really got to know them. And after I got to know them and understand that

They're actually not the bad person I thought they were. And my irrational hatred of them was causing me more pain than them because they didn't give a shit and they weren't thinking about me at all. But rather, if I could learn to be friends with that person, that they would be there to help me

more than I would have accepted their help in the past. Interesting. Yeah. Now that's a beautiful reflection. And I would love everyone to think about that watching or listening or leave a comment below your video about if money walked into the room. It's a great exercise. What is the relationship to money for you right now? It's an excellent, excellent, excellent. And that is going to, I asked someone in their late 20s, I said, if money walked in, you're at a restaurant and money walks in, what would you do?

And they said I would run to the bar and hide. I would gossip about them behind their back, speak crap about them. Then when they approached me, I would act like they're my friend. Then I want to use and abuse them. And I would ghost them if they ever asked me for something. And I go, man, you've got a really traumatic relationship with money. And they're like, yeah, I know.

And just imagine what your relationship is with money. And it's more the, again, it's the energy, the feeling, the emotions, the thinking, it's all of it combined based on your money history, your money story, your money traumas, your money wounds, your money belief system, what you heard about money from your parents, all of it mixed in into a bowl. I think that is exceptionally good advice. And it's having money therapy. It's exceptionally good advice and unbelievably actionable. Yeah.

- It is, right? So when I started to learn about how to make money, I was on my sister's couch at 23, 24 for a year and a half. And I was trying to get off her couch and just get my own apartment. I found money mentors. I found some people in my town who had made some money. And I just said, tell me what to do. Give me some coaching and I'll do it. I'll act like an athlete of life.

And I started to make some money and I ended up over a few years getting good at making it, but I still didn't feel good. How did you make it? What were you doing? I was doing free LinkedIn workshops because I was using LinkedIn to network with people in 2000, end of 2007, 2008, 2009. And I was using it just to try to build relationships, to try to meet people who had been successful, interview them and ask them questions about how they got there.

Little did I know that I would turn that into a business later, but just asking curious questions became a skillset. One of them, I was like, you need to optimize your LinkedIn profile. Let me do it for you. And he just gave me a hundred bucks afterwards. He goes, this is actually really going to help me. Thank you for showing me this. And I go,

you would pay me this like money to do this and i'd been on there for like six months just obsessing about linkedin as my own platform to like learn to network with people i was like oh maybe i can make more money let me go promote this skill and try to get other people to to let me help them as well that turned into writing a book about linkedin to doing workshops and events about linkedin to doing online course about linkedin and i was just like how do i take this as far as i can go so once i saw there was an opening

Here's $100 for doing this. He was, let me max out my time doing one-on-one. Then, oh, I met someone who wrote a book. Let me learn how to write a book so I can sell to many. Oh, you don't make much on a book. Let me do a course, sell to many that way. Oh, I don't know how to speak publicly. Let me take public speaking class.

So I just kept leaning into both my natural skills, but my fears that were blocking me from creating more money. Do you know what I love about this story? The motivation was not make money. The motivation was solve this problem. That was it. And what I love about it is you know this, which is the best businesses...

The best entrepreneurs are trying to solve a problem for themselves or someone else. And the solution that they found ends up being their business. Because you know it has real value because it worked for you. It worked for you and it worked for someone else. I couldn't get a good sandwich, so I started my own sandwich shop. I couldn't get a salad that was local ingredients, so I started my own salad shop with local ingredients. Whatever it is. And what I love is the motivation was...

not to monetize. The motivation was to learn. - Well, there's two things that tie to this. One, I probably would have never been in this position if two things didn't happen. One, my dad had gotten into a near fatal car accident

when I was 22, my senior year in college. My parents got divorced when I was a teenager. He went to New Zealand with his then fiance. And he got into a car accident where the car came on top of his car and hit him through the windshield. And he was in a coma for three months in New Zealand. And we didn't know if he was going to live or die. And my dad always said, you know, go chase your dreams. And if it doesn't work out or when you're done, you can always come work for me and sell insurance.

And I like, you know, grew up learning about life insurance. But it wasn't like my passion. It wasn't like my calling. But it was a safety net, though. It was like, okay, my dad has figured out how to make money after 32 years of busting his butt. The last five years before his accident, he was starting to get bigger commissions from those, you know, 25 plus years. They were like, finally, he was paying off. Like, finally, he could buy a car, a new car.

Finally, like he could go on better vacations. It was like all that hard work paid off and then boom, he gets this accident and then all the money is gone. First, the medical bills were through the roof and he got rid of his health insurance a few months prior. So he wasn't able to cover health insurance, didn't cover it. When they flew him back from New Zealand, he finally woke up three months later, flew him back. He was physically in this world, but it was like emotionally, spiritually gone.

He wasn't the same man. So it was like talking to a child who didn't remember who you were. So the sadness that I felt and our whole family felt was worse than him losing his money. And he lost his money essentially from the medical bills, but also his fiancee at the time became power of attorney because he wasn't able to work anymore or communicate.

She took all the money out of his life insurance policies that he invested in us. He had ownership of them and took all the money. So there was nothing for us. If that accident, and I'm not, I mean, it was a devastating experience, but had he had something for me, I don't know if I would have been this innovative and courageous to go figure it out on my own or find other mentors to help teach me.

That was one that I would not be here, I think, without him going through that experience. And the second thing is when I was living on my sister's couch during this time for a year and a half, she was like, you got to pay rent. I wasn't paying anything for a year and a half. And her saying like, you have to leave or pay rent. And I left and begged my brother to let me stay at his house. And he was like, you need to pay $250 a month to have a room here. But that forced me to step up.

and take action and have courage. Yeah. I don't know if we've ever talked about this, about courage. Have we talked about courage? That I think courage is external, not internal? Tell me, what do you mean by that? So I think courage for the most part is not an internal thing where you dig down deep and find the courage. I actually don't believe that for the most part.

I think courage is actually an external thing where, you know, the reason you have the courage to jump out of a perfectly good airplane is because of the parachute on your back. Without the parachute, you don't have courage, right? A world-famous trapeze artist would never try a brand-new death-defying act for the first time without a net. The net gives you the courage to take the risk, right? Your dad saying, go pursue your dreams, don't worry, you can always come sell insurance if you need to, that's a safety net, right? Gives you the courage to go do crazy things.

And anyone who's ever served in the military will tell you they're not running to the sound of the gun for God and country It's person to left and person to the right It's the relationships that give you the courage to do difficult things and any of us that has to do that have to do something difficult for ourselves at work whatever it is entrepreneurial venture take on Address trauma, whatever it is. All you need is one person in your life that is standing next to you who says I

I got you. Yeah. If this thing goes completely sideways, still here. I got you. And that, that is where courage comes from. Workshop this with me then. The things I've had to have the most courage around is having challenging conversations with people where I didn't want to disappoint them or have them upset or reacting in a certain way. Typically in previous relationships, intimate relationships.

And what I realized is I was so afraid of someone else externally rather than how I felt about me. And I didn't have the courage to know that I was safe with me no matter what happened with some other relationship that I was communicating or not doing something or doing something they wanted or didn't want me to do.

That's where I struggled around the courage. It was always around, you know, having the courage to speak on stage for years was terrifying because I didn't feel safe with me. Sure, I didn't want to be humiliated by others, but I felt like if they don't validate me, I'm still not here to validate myself. I'm still not safe with me because I don't know the tools on how to like myself or how to accept myself and be alone. Mm hmm.

And so how would that play into courage being an external thing versus an internal thing? - I think it's a much easier journey to like yourself or be at least at more peace with yourself when you have one person in your life who likes you for you. - Yeah, what if you don't have one person who likes you for you? - I would say then it goes back to the story of my friend who, you know, I was coaching her and it wasn't working, but when I asked her to coach me, which is, okay, if you don't have one person in your life

who likes you, when was the last time you said to someone, you know, you're a good person. I like you. Like when was the last time you did that for someone else? And I think the journey of trying to solve your problems by helping other people who are struggling with the same problem is a place to start. But at the end of the day, as woo as this might sound, if you can't look yourself in the mirror, literally as a practice, I'm not saying like, oh, look yourself in the mirror, but like literally if you can't look in the mirror and say,

yeah, I really like and appreciate myself and love myself for who I am right now or the journey I'm on or who I'm becoming. I don't know many people that can look themselves in the mirror authentically, not as like a gimmick or a shtick, and say, I like you. I love you. I accept you. You're not perfect. You're not this like incredible thing. But here's the validation, right? If you can look externally that we are broken and imperfect and messy and stupid and

irresponsible, we are all these things. And yet there are still people who like us. And I'll pick up on the example you sort of made a joke about the fact that I was such a bad listener, right? My friends and ex-girlfriends would say to me, you are a terrible listener. And I would be like,

You do know what I do for a living, right? I'm a pretty good listener. I'm a professional. I teach other people how to listen. I think I know what I'm doing. Right. And then I took this listening class and I discovered that I am a fantastic listener with people I will never see again for the rest of my life. But with the people who are close to me, who I love terrible. Why is that?

Probably took them for granted. I don't know. You know what it is because active listening requires a lot of energy. It's a skill. And so when I'm meeting somebody and they're asking me these questions, I'm dialed in. I am on. I'm professional. I'm doing it. And then when I'm with my friends, I turn it off. And that was where I was being irresponsible. And you know this. All successful relationships, if you ask people, what's your secret? They say, it's hard work and we do the work. In other words, relationships require work. So do friendships. Yes. And

I, like many, took friendships for granted and turned it off. Did the work in other places, but didn't do the work here. And so I took this class. I discover I'm a terrible listener with people I love. So the first thing I do is pick up the phone and call them one by one and be like, hey, I just took this class and I think I'm a really bad listener. And they go, yeah, we know. Right. And I go, sorry. They're like, it's OK. But the point is they still stuck with me. Yeah. They saw something in me.

that was worth hanging out, being my friend, putting up with my absolute nonsense, sometimes to the point where I made them feel bad. They saw something in me, they knew I wasn't a bad person. I think that's the greatest validation you can get. And it goes right back to what you said before, which is I can't let them down now. Like now that I know, now that it's been exposed,

that they still like me for me because they see something inside me that I haven't yet realized or pulled out of myself. I owe it to my friends even before I owe it to myself. - Keep workshop with me because I've got a story I want to see because I'm going to push back a little bit on this. - I like it. - When I was in eighth grade, I went to a private boarding school. And so I'm pretty good as an eighth grader in basketball and in most sports. I'm pretty athletic at this point. I'm developing, I'm tall. I'm like this tall at eighth grade, 6'4".

And six, four is like a giant. Yeah. Maybe I was like six, two and a half, six, three, but I got pretty close. It's all, it was tall. I was the tallest in the class, all these things. So it was a small private school and it was connected to the high school. It was all associated. And so they had me practicing with the varsity team, even though I was in the middle school and I wasn't as good as the seniors, but I was like, I could keep up with some of them. And there was this guy who still to this day, uh,

is the most freak athlete I've ever seen. It was unbelievable to just watch him effortlessly jump up onto the rim, 360 dunk, like he could do anything. Anything athletically, freak of nature. And he was like supposed to be the star. But for whatever reason, in the game, he played average. Every game, he never accelerated. But in practice, it was like godlike. It was unbelievable.

I remember I never really understood it because I didn't have the talent, the raw talent. I was tall, but I didn't have the athleticism, like the power. And I was like, man, give me an ounce of that and I will dominate people.

And everyone poured into him. Everyone externally said, you're our captain. You're our leader because of his skill. We believe in you. Give him the ball. But he just, he performed average, right? And it didn't matter if everyone in the world was celebrating him, championing him, there for him, seeing him, acknowledging him. He didn't acknowledge himself. Yeah.

For whatever reason, he had the talent, he had the skill. But I bet if he looked himself in the mirror and did this weird exercise, I don't know if he fully believes or loved or accepted who he was. I think that's some of it. That is consistent with some of the data that exists on kids who are straight-A students, top of their class, honors on a roll, the whole thing.

that their whole life they get told, you're so smart, you're the best, you're so smart, you're the best. And then what ends up happening is they fear falling off the pedestal. And so they end up playing safe the rest of their life for fear of falling off the pedestal because they don't want to not be that. And average kids are never told, you're so smart, you're so great. Average kids are told, great effort. And so when you're told great effort, there is no ceiling.

You just keep going. Give it more effort. Because you're getting rewarded for your effort, not your accomplishment. Yeah, yeah. The data shows that average kids are more likely to outperform in life because they don't perceive a ceiling and they don't have a fear of falling off. And I've definitely seen this in my own career. Like the kids who are like straight A students went to all the Ivy League schools and that's not to say you go to an Ivy League school that this is who you are, but the ones who found

Found a place on the pedestal and that's where they got their identity. Remember, this comes from young age, like your identity is, and his identity was in practice, people telling him, you're the best. You're amazing. We've never seen anything like that before. Now, the fear of not being the best.

He can't bring it. He can't bring it when there's real odds and real stakes. Because in practice, you can't lose. But in a game, if he takes risk... More stake, yeah. He's going to lose, and then they're going to be like, oh, you're not as good as we thought you were. Where when you're average, win, lose, whatever. Just another day, just played my best. Like, win some, lose some. But you were at the top of your class. You were excelling. You were skipping grades probably. Yeah, weren't you? Ha! No? Solid B student. But you probably had...

acknowledgements in other areas of academics or of something around debate club or something else. Nope. Nope. What I got told most often my whole childhood was if you'd only focus, you could actually achieve more. If only you would focus, you could actually work to your full potential. I was told if you work harder, maybe you'll do better, you know? But like,

Grades didn't mean anything to me. And so A, B, whatever. I always like to the point where I'm designing my own grading systems, where I always believe grades should be given as a ratio. So it should be the level of accomplishment because level of accomplishment is still important. But level of accomplishment over hours studied. I went to school with kids who got A over 50. I got a B over two. Is that a better or worse grade?

The answer is it depends what you need. It's not a comparison of good or bad or right or wrong or smarter or not smarter. So if you need somebody to do top quality A-level work and you're willing to give them 50 hours to do it, hire that kid. Don't hire me because I don't want to do 50 hours. But if you need somebody who can operate a pressure and do pretty well, I'll give you a B over two every day.

So I'm probably being generous. It's B over half an hour. Yeah, yeah. Right? And so the A over 50s hated me because I could get a B plus over two, right? You could study on the bus ride to school. Yeah, exactly. They hated me. But the point is, is like, I think I learned pretty at a reasonable age, thank goodness, that I wasn't comparing my self-worth of the A and the B.

I was laughing at them for working so hard for not that much more game. Like, was that worth 48 hours for just like a half a point or 10 points? Like to me, it's not worth it. Cause I was doing just fine. Like, it's not like I'm flunking out of school. Right. Like I'm doing fine. You weren't the number one. And I've always been very comfortable. Like,

And I think what that's done now goes back to the original thing of like when you're not on the pedestal, I'm totally comfortable, totally at peace with the fact that there are people who have more followers, their companies are bigger, they make more money, like whatever. And so I don't have that gotta be number one, beat everyone. See, I used to have that. I don't have it at all because I've never really had it.

Yeah. Right. Interesting. And so going back to your friend, I don't know if it's that he didn't like himself or that. I mean, I'm sure I'm sure it's in there. I mean, how can it not be right? But I think it's a very close bedfellow. Yeah, of course. With that other people have given you the identity of the genius, the star athlete at a very young age. And now you spend the rest of your life afraid of losing it.

Yeah. As opposed to, like I said, going for it. And so they, I mean, I think there are parenting experts who know more than I do about this stuff, but you're, you're supposed to reward effort, like great effort. You're supposed to say to a kid as opposed to you're the smartest, you're the best, you're the prettiest. Right. You know, what did you think you measured yourself worth to then? If it wasn't like your grades or your, as a kid. Yeah. In junior high school. So what's that? Like seven, eighth grade, seventh, eighth grade. My, my,

best friend was Adam. He was the leader. He was the alpha of our little posse. Right? He was the alpha dog. - Physically or emotionally? - No, just like there's always a leader in the group. - Yeah, yeah. Energetically he was... - He was the leader of our group. Right? We all wanted to be like Adam. - Follow him. Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, we all followed Adam. Right? And Adam and I, you know, kids do, young boys, we had a fight over who knows what, something stupid.

And the next day I got on the bus and nobody sat next to me. None of my quote unquote friends from the posse sat next to me. They all sat in different seats. And I had no friends because I had a fight with Adam and he instructed them not to sit next to me. So I got punished. Right. And that loneliness and that like, you got to be kidding me. Right. And so at a fairly young age, I was able to say, how the hell is my happiness different

That who I sit next to on the, who will sit next to me on the bus is conditional if I like kiss the ring. If I'm like, I have to be nice to Adam, otherwise I have no friends. This is ridiculous that I'm relying on somebody else for my friends. And so at a pretty early age, I started experimenting with being my own self and taking responsibility for my own, like whatever it was.

But baby steps, right? Yeah. And so like I went to American school. So, you know, jeans, sneakers, T-shirts was what we wore to school. And I started wearing shoes like black shoes. Nobody wore shoes. Everybody wore sneakers. Like dress shoes, like nicer. Like nicer shoes. Yeah. So I like lace up shoes. I started wearing shoes where everybody else was wearing sneakers and people would make fun of me. And like people be like, were you wearing shoes? And I would just wear my shoes.

And then I get a little older and I started pushing the boundaries a little more and I stopped wearing white socks and I started wearing crazy colored socks.

which I do to this day. I don't own plain colored socks except to work out in. And that started pretty young and I started sort of experimenting. And I used to joke, you know, the old Teddy Roosevelt, you know, speak softly and carry a big stick, you know? I used to joke, I say, speak softly and wear loud socks. - That's cool. - You know, and it was sort of, it became my signature thing. - That's cool. - Then I get to college and I start wearing ties with my jeans and my shoes and my brightly colored socks.

just screwing around, just getting comfortable being me, taking very baby steps, like getting comfortable with people be like, what's up with the tie? Right. You know, making fun of you, making fun of me. And I'd like, you know, I didn't do it every day, but it was like, I did it and build up the courage, the courage, the slow baby steps to be a weirdo. Yeah. You know, or rather to let my weirdo out. But it really was born out of,

I'm not going to rely on somebody else to determine who my friends are. My friends will be my friends or my friends won't be my friends, but it's not because I did or didn't, you know, kiss the ring. That's interesting. And so these are stupid little things that nobody can see. And this is what it is. I think, and you said it before, and I think you're a hundred percent right, which is do it for yourself. Yes. Like it doesn't matter what it is. It can be stupid. People can love it or hate it. It doesn't matter. And it doesn't have to even be visible to the world. Yes.

But wear something, do something, try something, taste something, go somewhere. But do it for yourself. And when somebody says, why are you doing that? You're like, I don't know, because I like it. That's the only answer you have to give. I don't know because I like it. I don't know because it just makes me happy. And it's not like self-love is going to be the thing that shows up the next day. I think self-love is the exact same as falling in love with someone else, which is tell me the day, Lewis Howes, tell me the day.

that you fell in love with your now wife. - Yeah. - You don't know. - I can't tell you the day. - You couldn't tell, and she couldn't tell me the day. You know you fell in love with her, but the point is there is no day. - There wasn't a moment. For me it was, I felt a sense of continual peace that I'd never felt before over a period of time. - And over a period of time, you then said, "Oh my God, it's the realization that you are now in love." - Yes. - So why in the self-help world do we keep saying you have to fall in love with yourself?

like it's a day or an event or you do these five things and you will have self-love. If there's a completely different standard for falling in love with somebody else, why would we change the standard to fall in love with ourselves? Which is, okay, how do you fall in love with somebody else? Okay, well, when you go to the fridge to get a drink for yourself,

Bring a drink for them. Learn their love language. Give that to them. Don't just expect them to learn yours. Okay. Do that for you. What's something you like? What's your love language that you like for yourself? I like giving gifts to people. Buy yourself a gift. Okay, there's one. I like words of affirmation to other people. Give yourself some words of affirmation. You know, splurge. Get the thing with the caviar next time. You know? I used to do a thing that every day I came home,

I had no money, I was living hand to fist. And every day I came home, I would put my hand in my pocket and every dollar bill, not fives, not tens, just ones, every dollar bill I would throw in a shoebox.

Every day. Sometimes there'd be none. Sometimes there'd be five. Sometimes there'd be 10. Sometimes I'd be like, I don't think I should put 10 in there. You know, every now and then I was feeling cocky and I'd throw a five in there. But every day I threw in these $1 bills because who cares? I'm just throwing away a $2 a day. Like I didn't care. At the end of a few months, I had hundreds of dollars.

That was my do whatever the hell you want fund. That's cool. That was my, I want to spend an extra $40 for the truffle on my pasta. It's coming out of that fund. I want to buy something stupid for myself. It was my, you can do whatever you want stupid fund. Right? My point is, is like, do those little things for yourself. And I guarantee you at some point, I don't know when, and neither will you,

you will look in the mirror and you'll be like, "Ah, I kind of like you a lot." - I think you make your life easier by doing the things you're most afraid of and doing the most painful things now. For example, when I was 16, I had eight teeth removed, four wisdom and then four side teeth because my teeth were all over the place. And they told me I was supposed to do braces. I never wanted to do the braces. I did a really painful thing. I had eight teeth removed at once. And it was like months of healing.

And then football season came around and you wear a mouth guard. I was like, ah, I don't want to have the braces in. I'll wait six months till after the season. Six months became 20 years. And I have a photo I'll show you where for the last six years, I've been on the most painful journey of just correcting my jaw and my teeth. So my teeth touch everything.

My jaw started to grow in where only the front two teeth touched for 20 years. No kidding. And I had four gaps in my mouth, so I couldn't chew my food. So I had digestion problems. All these things started to happen because I avoided pain. I wanted to just relax. I didn't want to do more pain. And I think our lives would be better if we lean into the fear and the pain and the discomfort first, as opposed to waiting, because I had...

a very painful 20 years because I delayed it. - It's a perfectly good metaphor for relationships too, right? I have to have a difficult conversation with somebody I love. - You just delay it. - Exactly, and I always tell my friends, there's gonna be pain. Better a little pain now than a lot of pain later, but there's gonna be pain. 'Cause people are trying to avoid the pain,

No, you're not going to avoid the pain, but you can avoid more pain. Exactly. You can't avoid the pain, but I think you're going to have a much better life if you go all in on your fears and your pain as fast as possible and figuring out what's sustainable. Like you said, sometimes the self-help world, I think it's a good world overall, but like you said, some programs or methods or methodologies. I just want people to like,

take the pressure off of themselves. Yes. That's all. I think you got to find something. When it doesn't work, we blame ourselves. And that's why you need to find something that's sustainable for you. That's a lifestyle for you that you can live in this season of life. Yes. And it may be different in a different season. So like for me, the ADHD kid in me, it's like everything I've ever done is like great for like a month or two months. And then I fall off the bandwagon and I blame myself. Like I can't stick with anything. And somebody pointed out to me,

maybe just it worked for two months and that's all it needs to work for and find something else to work for another two months and then find something else. And so like, why are you beating yourself up that you couldn't stick with it? Maybe it just works for that a period of time. It worked great for that period of time. Now find something else that works for another period of time. And it's like, I've taken all the pressure off myself. I love it. Louis. Appreciate you, man. It's so nice to have you on. Thanks, really appreciate you.

If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simonsenik.com, for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other. A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company.

It's produced and edited by Lindsay Garbenius, David Jha, and Devin Johnson. Our executive producers are Henrietta Conrad and Greg Rudershan.