The battle for LA: How Donald Trump's Californian crackdown could define his presidency
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The Telegraph.

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People throwing rocks at police cars, flashbangs, lighting up the air, going over my head, police firing rubber bullets into the crowd. But it's been tense. There's been clashes every day. We will measure our success not only by the battles we win, but also by the wars we end. The U.S. will take over the Gaza Strip. We'll own it. Know that China is doing very poorly right now.

I just saw some reports coming out and I don't want that to happen to China. You're gambling with World War III. I was saved by God to make America great again.

I'm Roland Ollipant and this is Battlelines. It's Friday, 13th of June 2025. It has been a week of chaos in Los Angeles. Last weekend, immigration raids by ICE sparked protests that in turn sparked riots. And every night since, the LAPD and protesters have traded rocks and rubber bullets.

Taxis have gone up in flames, shops have been looted, the immigration rates have continued and undocumented migrants have either been arrested or gone into hiding. Thousands of Latino residents have turned out to protest, mostly peacefully, against the ongoing campaign. But the clashes on the streets of LA pale in comparison to the larger political battle.

Using a little-known legal loophole, President Trump overruled California's Governor Gavin Newsom to send in the National Guard. The president has also now mobilized Marines, who are due to hit the streets this weekend. President Trump said on Thursday that without the military, Los Angeles would be a crime scene like we haven't seen in years.

Mr Newsom, or New Scum, as Mr Trump named him, had totally lost control of the situation. He should be saying thank you for saving his arse. Instead of trying to justify his mistakes and incompetence, Mr Trump wrote on Truth Social, Mr Newsom, for his part, had this to say. Donald Trump, without consulting California law enforcement leaders, commandeered 2,000 of our state's National Guard members to deploy on our streets, illegally and for no reason.

This brazen abuse of power by a sitting president inflamed a combustible situation, putting our people, our officers, and even our National Guard at risk. That's when the downward spiral began. He doubled down on his dangerous National Guard deployment by fanning the flames even harder. Trump is pulling a military dragnet.

all across Los Angeles, well beyond his stated intent to just go after violent and serious criminals. His agents are arresting dishwashers, gardeners, day laborers, and seamstresses. That's just weakness, weakness masquerading as strength. California may be first, but it clearly will not end here. Other states are next. Democracy is next.

Democracy is under assault before our eyes. This moment we have feared has arrived. And so the chaos in Los Angeles is turning into a personality clash between Mr Trump and Mr Newsom, but also a political struggle between the state of California and the White House.

a test of presidential authority and states' rights. It could create new precedents for the use of military force in the homeland with constitutional implications. For Mr Newsom, it means a test of democracy itself. And of course, it represents a conflict at the heart of contemporary America. The nationwide tension between the half of the country that voted for Mr Trump and his promises to crack down on illegal immigration...

and the half who see that as, as Mr. Newsom put it, an assault on democracy itself. Meanwhile, the immigration raids, protests and the unrest have continued. The Telegraph's US correspondent, Lucy Cohen, has spent the week on the streets of Los Angeles speaking to both protesters and police officers. Here's what some of them have to say. I'm here because I want to fight for the rights of immigrants and especially regarding the

Increased recently in ICE raids. I do not agree with that. I've been against ICE since I was a young kid. I'm here to make sure that our city is safe for all of the people here. My family migrated here, so seeing as I have family members that were in similar situations, I became aware of it at a younger age. They're taking parents from kids at courthouses. They're putting people in inhumane situations.

Just because they came out here for a better opportunity. Whether or not they're going to stay here for the rest of their life, that's something we don't know. Like, how can we judge? You know people personally who have been impacted by it. Can you tell me a bit about, without going into detail? Dude, I know people that I work with that they can disappear tomorrow. We can't do anything, but what we can do is show up so they know that we have a voice and we're going to use it.

I just feel for everybody whose families are being taken away right now. It must feel so unsettling and just devastating having your family. Yeah, it is very devastating, you know. How do we go from, you know, enjoying having family here to, like, literally missing them?

because they're getting sent away. And like, there's nothing we could do about it, obviously, because we also have undocumented families that can't help and show up and, you know, do what they want to do to save our families. That's why I'm here to speak.

And I'm here to show their names and everything to represent them. You know, maybe that can make a change. I know that a lot of people are doing the same right now. They want to get their voices out there to help our families. Earlier, I spoke to Susie about what it's been like reporting this story. I started by asking her to describe what she's seen over the past week. Right now, I'm in my hotel in downtown Los Angeles, which is just fairly close to where

All the chaos has been erupting over the past several days. So we're on day six now and there's a protest planned for 5pm, not too far from my hotel. There's been absolutely chaotic, crazy scenes. When I arrived on Sunday, I got off the plane, went straight down to downtown and there were...

People throwing rocks at police cars, flashbangs, lighting up the air, going over my head, police firing bullets into the rubber bullets into the crowd. I haven't seen scenes as chaotic as that since Sunday, but it's been tense. There's been clashes every day and it just seems like there's no end in sight, really.

Could you give us a sense of the geography of it? Is this happening in specific places or one or two intersections? Or is it spread further out around the city? The downtown protests have been concentrated around the federal buildings, which is the detention centre and federal building. So that's sort of been the nerve centre of the protests. But then as they're moved along further,

by the police, you know, dispersed and then kettled and moved on to different places. It has spread to streets around there, but it's generally around that area, which is where the mayor put in a curfew yesterday from 8pm till 6am. But

But although they arrested people once that curfew went into place, there were hundreds of people on the street last night and I was with them and we were walking for hours. Eventually, about 11pm, I had to come back and file, so I left them. But walking through the downtown area where the curfew had been put in place after I left, the police must have come in and...

Dealt with everyone. So that's in the downtown area. It's been fairly concentrated. But across Los Angeles, when there are raids, there have been protests. So there was in Paramount, another part of Los Angeles, there were some riots on Friday. And there have been things springing up in different cities as well. So Santa Ana, which is about an hour's drive from where I am, 45 minutes away.

There were protests. There was a raid two days ago and there were protests erupted and people protesting there. And yesterday there was a protest there as well. I don't think it descended into chaos, but there were National Guard and also Trump supporters came out to sort of be a counter protest. So it spread around. And as you've seen, it's spreading across the US as well with protests.

these protests erupting in more than a dozen cities. I've just been looking at the news just before we were able to speak to you. And it looks like they've, the governor of Texas has now sent the National Guard into San Antonio too. This whole issue of the National Guard being mobilized seems to be spreading across the country. Yes, I guess the difference with that is that the governor himself, who is a close ally of Trump, he's a Republican governor, has sent the National Guard in. What made...

It's so different. Here was Trump ordered the National Guard at no request of Gavin Newsom, the governor. So that's a slight difference in that sense. Trump hasn't sent the National Guard into any other cities yet as in like a federal order. Here he sent in the National Guard. There's 4,000 troops meant to be deployed here and 700 Marines. Really unprecedented move. Haven't seen any Marines on the streets yet.

I think they're still in training, learning how to deal with sort of de-escalation. And they have very limited powers here, what they can do until if Trump invokes the Insurrection Act. Could you just take us back to the beginning, Susie, because I think things have moved so fast. What has triggered this wave of unrest in Los Angeles? How did it all start? So

So it all started on Friday when ICE began conducting raids, immigration raids in Los Angeles. So there were raids at Home Depots. Immigrants often go to pick up work in the morning. What does ICE stand for? Immigration Customs Enforcement. Just because we're hearing a lot about this Home Depot, for those of our listeners who have not been to America, what is a Home Depot? It's the equivalent of a home base or a B&Q.

people will go there hoping to pick up day labouring work or, you know, say you need, you want some labour to do up your kitchen or paint your, you can go there and find people who can do that for you. They've been conducting raids there. They conducted raids at a clothing manufacturer where I spoke to

Several people whose relatives were taken away in those raids and detained, and they haven't heard from them. So I think the thing that's frustrating a lot of people and why they're taking to the streets is people feeling very unsafe and

The mayor described it as terror, people living in terror. Campaigners argue that these aren't the so-called criminals and worst of the worst, as Trump has suggested, but people who've been here for years going out to try and work. That sparked a lot of anger and some protests broke out, people trying to stop the vans leaving with these detainees. And yes, then it just erupted and it hasn't stopped since. ICE has been continuing with its raids.

to carry out raids, I think on a lesser scale. When one of these raids happens, unrest and protests tend to erupt in those places. So Santa Ana, the raids on Monday,

then people took to the street and there was chaos and National Guard called. And I'm sort of keeping my ear to the ground of as and when these raids might be taking place. Obviously, ICE doesn't give warning about these. So the word spreads among the community. Things will be posted on social media saying happening now, go and support. And yeah, that's when I think things will continue to break out. Where does the LAPD stand in the middle of this? Because, of course, you have ICE.

which is, I believe, a federal agency. You have the National Guard that's been brought in by Donald Trump against the wishes of the governor, which is unprecedented. And then you have the LAPD, and I suppose outside the city area, the LA County sheriffs, who work for a governor and a mayor who are not necessarily that supportive. The law enforcement situation seems like a bit of a mess. How is that playing out?

So I'm losing track of all the different uniforms and agencies that I'm seeing. I'll see highway patrol agents blocking off areas with their batons and then I'll see LAPD, but it's the LAPD which are...

carrying out the law enforcement. So when there are arrests being made, that's the LAPD. The National Guard stand there with their shields. I haven't seen them doing anything other than guarding federal buildings. I've seen Highway Patrol as well with these guns with rubber bullets. It is very much under control of local law enforcement who are on horseback and

with these guns that I was talking about, shooting protesters when they get too close or things that boil up. Yesterday, I got caught in a kettle fight

which is when the two lines of police, I was on a street, some protesters had just run out onto the highway very briefly, nothing like we saw on Sunday where they really occupied the highway. And the police sort of came from either side in a line, squashing us closer and closer together. It was mainly media at this point, most people had left.

squashing, squashing, squashing, and then until there's no space between you. And then they arrested everyone in that kettle, pretty much. Luckily, I had my credential on me. So I was managed to escape. But some press have been detained. It's a bit of a hairy situation. It doesn't feel completely safe as a reporter out there because you don't know how the police are going to react. I wanted to ask you about that. There has been this video going around of an Australian

reporter being apparently deliberately shot at by a police officer I mean I think you've even got a piece on our website at the moment about how you and um and a telegraph photographer were were also targeted could you tell us a bit about what happened to you and to him the difference between what happened to us and what happened to that journalist is it is quite different in that we were

covering the protest, it turned quite quickly into something, you know, it'd been very peaceful all day. We were fairly far back, but then suddenly things turned and the police started firing into the crowd. And as we were getting away, unfortunately, and we were at a safe distance, my colleague, John Putman, got a pepper ball to the side of the head, hit him in the ear. All the irritant puffed out, went over my goggles.

And we ran away. But yes, it does feel unsafe as a reporter getting too close to the police lines because you don't know if they are going to target you because we have seen cases where clearly identified members of the press, and you know I'm wearing my press pass very clearly, have been shot with these non-lethal bullets. So yeah,

It feels hairy, it feels unsafe, and you just don't know if you can trust in this situation. That leads us into the question of the violence. Depending on how sympathetic you are to one side or another, you might call these riots or you might call them protests. It sounds to me, from what you're saying, that you've seen elements of both. You just described a peaceful protest that then suddenly turned very violent.

how would you characterize what's going on here? Or where does the truth lie between those two different terms? I think both things are true at the same time. I think there are the majority of people that are peaceful protesters. A lot of people aren't wearing masks. They're holding up signs that they've made at home. There are children there. They're waving their flags and they want their voices to be heard. I'd say that's the majority. But then there are people who are there looking for trouble. A lot of masks

people who come to these demonstrators, who come to these things and want to invoke a response from the police, maybe throwing eggs or throwing fireworks or throwing rocks or, and then, you know, things boil over. It feels extremely tense most of the time, I would say, because you just know that it could turn at any minute. There's definitely the majority of people who are peaceful and want their voices heard, but then, you know, these complete agitators who are setting fire to Waymo cars and

The self-driving cars here that we saw torched on Sunday, they're throwing rocks, they're throwing Molotov cocktails and they're looting. But I feel like most of these agitators are coming out at night or towards the end of the protests. And then when nightfall comes, it can become a bit of a free-for-all, you know, dumpster fires. And that's just when things start to feel a lot more unsafe.

What have people been saying to you, the people who you've spoken to? Is there a common theme? Do any conversations stand out and kind of

bringing out what's going on here? Most of the people I've spoken to are there to protest peacefully and they don't approve of the violence that's being used. However, the phrase I'm hearing again and again is you don't know their story. You don't know what's happened to them. People respond to things in different ways. They're not condoning the violence, but saying,

You just don't know if this person's had their parent ripped from them or taken from them in one of these raids and that's spilling out into violence. That can't be the case for everyone there. But yes, I think the majority of protesters I've spoken to don't condone it, but they also say that they can understand that people respond in different ways to traumatic and upsetting things.

Not everyone causing this violence. You can't say that everyone has had a personal experience with this because it's, you know, it's very widespread. So there's definitely people looking for trouble as well. And who are the protesters? I haven't actually spoken to anyone out of town who's not from L.A. or in the surrounding areas yet.

their teachers, their students, their parents, that sort of thing. So there's the main group that I've seen is the LA branch of the Party for Socialism and Liberation.

They're posting every day saying, you know, protest 5pm here or protest 1pm here. But there's lots of different groups organising. There's also, I'm sure, groups of agitators coming in. Is this mostly coming from the Hispanic community and the immigrant Mexican community? Yes. Everyone I've spoken to generally, some are first generation, some are second generation. Some are immigrants who've come here and are now citizens.

It's the Hispanic community that I've seen out. What struck me was that a lot of them, or at least the woman I spoke to in your interview, I mean, she doesn't deny that a lot of them are undocumented. She talks about them not wanting to come out because they know they could be deported. That's the sense from everyone. I spoke to someone last night who was out past the curfew.

And he was saying that his father had been deported twice and was back in Mexico. His stepfather was also deported and is back in Mexico. He was born here. He's just saying there's a sense of fear and uneasiness that you have. Until it's an issue, you don't realise that your parents, you might not realise that your parents are undocumented. A lot of these people either know people or are related to people who don't have papers and aren't documented to be here.

The flip side of that would be that I suppose Donald Trump or his supporters or ICE would say, well, you are therefore criminals. You shouldn't be here and we should be deporting you. Exactly. They say they are illegal, as they call them, illegals. And you've come to this country illegally. They would say that they have every right to deport them. Immigration has...

been unchecked. And that's they believe that's one of the huge issues with the US at the moment. And that is something that we I heard on the campaign trail, you know, it was it is something that a lot of Americans are concerned about is the spike in immigration. So yeah, it's a very thorny issue. I was just speaking to a to a writer based in LA. And he talked about a certain sense that

We're Los Angeles, we've always been quite volatile. Maybe the White House knew this was going to happen, that there's an urge to provoke a confrontation, perhaps because it is what is called a sanctuary city, perhaps because of, you know, the conflicts between Newsom and Trump. What do you make of that? Is that something you're hearing, that kind of debate?

Yes, definitely. I'm hearing that, you know, this is what they want. Trump wants things to spill over into even more violence and unrest so he can

the Insurrection Act and embolden the powers of the federal agents over here. It adds justification, some might argue, to the necessity for these raids and, you know, they're under attack and ICE agents being targeted and things like that. It adds arsenal to his arguments about

why this is necessary and, you know, the threat to America from these players. Just tell us about the Insurrection Act. What is it and what would it mean if it was invoked?

The Insurrection Act would permit the president to use military forces to end an insurrection or rebellion. So it would give right now, as I mentioned, the Marines, the National Guard are very limited in what they're able to do in terms of, you know, they can de-escalate, they can detain people, I believe, for a short amount of time, but they can't arrest or actually enforce people.

It's still in the hands of the LAPD and local enforcement, but this would give power to federal agents on the ground here in Los Angeles in a way that they just do not have at the moment. At the moment, it seems like it's, you know, National Guard are standing there and

showing off their shields, their fatigues and some great picture opportunities and guarding federal buildings, but they're not actually doing anything on the ground in terms of dealing with the crowd or de-escalation from what I've seen. One thing that's been suggested to me over the course of this week is that in a sense, this is a

a testing of the waters, maybe a rehearsal, whatever you want to say. But it was an attempt to see how far this can go. How far can the president exercise these authorities? Is there a sense of that? And if so, what might Donald Trump be preparing for in future? People might argue that this is a rehearsal, that Trump is seeing how far, you know, California is a blue state, pushes back against some of his policies.

in the same way that New York and other blue states, although New York is slightly different in terms of the relation between the mayor and Trump at the moment. But, you know, the governor is still at loggerheads with Trump and doesn't agree with his policies. I mean, it's a test case of what happens if these blue states do refuse to allow unsurcalled sanctuary cities in.

do push back against his policies and what he's trying to achieve here and his ICE agents and federal powers? What can he do to bring things under his control? How far can he go? And what does the roadmap look like? Suzy, thank you for this. You've been in LA for several days now. Where do things go from here? Is there any upcoming decision point?

that we should be waiting for or looking out for to tell us what happens next.

Where do we go from here? I mean, it all depends on what happens on the ground. I mean, as you mentioned, it's spreading to other US cities. So how big are those protests going to get? Is Trump going to declare sending the National Guard to New York, for example, or another state? In terms of what's going to happen in Los Angeles? I don't know. I mean,

One police officer I spoke to said he thinks that something's going to happen that will escalate things very quickly. He suggested that maybe someone will try to shoot an ICE agent or something along those lines. Obviously, that's complete speculation. I think people will continue to be protesting. At some point, things might boil over and Trump might declare the Insurrection Act and then things will get really... You know, if the Marines and National Guard and people are able to come out onto the streets and...

carry out law enforcement and orders of the president, you know, the Marines being deployed would be under his command, things will get much more intense. But you know, if this just continues, as is happening, and things don't escalate further, I think we'll be in this situation for quite some time. Susie Cohen there reporting from Los Angeles.

After the break, how does today's unrest compare to the 1992 Los Angeles riots? And what is it about that city that makes it such a lightning rod for fault lines in American society?

Did you know that foreign investors are quietly funding lawsuits in American courts through a practice called third-party litigation funding? Shadowy overseas funders are paying to sue American companies in our courts, and they don't pay a dime in U.S. taxes if there is an award or settlement. They profit tax-free from our legal system, while U.S. companies are tied up in court and American families pay the price to the tune of $5,000 a year. But

But there is a solution. A new proposal before Congress would close this loophole and ensure these foreign investors pay taxes, just like the actual plaintiffs have to. It's a common sense move that discourages frivolous and abusive lawsuits and redirects resources back into American jobs,

innovation, and growth. Only President Trump and congressional Republicans can deliver this win for America and hold these foreign investors accountable. Contact your lawmakers today and demand they take a stand to end foreign-funded litigation abuse.

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Welcome back. LA is one of those cities that many of us feel we know just because we've seen so much of it in the movies. That's not the same as living there, however. But the writer Ryan Gattis does just that. He has in fact been called one of the most penetrating and clear-eyed commentators on contemporary Los Angeles. His 2015 book, All Involved, follows 17 narrators through the riots that tore the city apart in 1992, a defining moment in LA's recent history.

Earlier this week, I spoke to Ryan from his home in southern Los Angeles about how the current unrest compares to 1992, how Los Angeles has changed in the decades between these two outbreaks of violence, and what it is about this extraordinary, sprawling city that makes it a lightning rod for national tensions. I started by asking him to describe what he's seen of this week's trouble. It's been a strange time, I think, to say the absolute least.

I was out at an art opening on Saturday evening in Echo Park. We went across the street with some friends to have dinner. At one point, everyone's phones started blowing up and multiple people

Emergency vehicles started speeding past us on Sunset Boulevard there toward the downtown area. I have to admit, even just sitting there on the street and seeing several emergency vehicles going by with multiple law enforcement members actually just hanging on to the sides and the back.

I just thought, wow, this is probably kicking off. When I came home and had an opportunity to sift a bit more through the news, it really doesn't seem to be as large as it was made out to be at least initially, Friday, Saturday. And as far as where we are now, there seems to be a disconnect, I think, between what's actually going on and the scale and the scope. I mean, you mentioned 1992. Yeah, we're nowhere. And I mean nowhere.

nowhere near that in terms of scope and scale. And I could get into the numbers or anything you'd like to help make that obvious. But that is not to say that we aren't in a very difficult moment where the federal government perhaps

is very much looking for conflagration, you know, difficulty in order to justify increasingly larger means. In fact, I just saw photos of Marines arriving in Los Angeles this morning, which is, I think, very worrying indeed. I wanted to ask if there's something specific about LA that makes this the place where this confrontation and this conflagration has kicked off, because I suppose it could have been

Anywhere in America, really, that we've been seeing these ice raids on immigrant communities across the country. Is there something peculiar about Los Angeles that made it particularly febrile here? Well, the short answer is absolutely everything. Could this have happened at another sanctuary city in the United States? Sure.

I don't think so. I think the LA spirit has always been one of wanting to stand up, to protect your own, to...

be open to and even willing to using violence as a language or as a means to communicate if tensions or anger have risen to a level where words simply aren't enough, whether we're talking about 92 or 1965. This is something that has happened in Los Angeles again and again. Even in All Involved, which you mentioned earlier, there's even a character who says, oh, don't worry, this is going to happen again at some point. It's just what we do. It's one of the cycles of Los Angeles.

Now, I mentioned sanctuary cities, and I think it's important to perhaps make it clear to the listeners what that is. And essentially what that is, is that the city limits its cooperation with federal immigration authorities, which means local law enforcement, if you're ever in need of help, they're not going to ask you.

what's your citizenship status before they help you. They're just going to help you. Further, they're not necessarily going to help these federal agencies target schools, workplaces, or even neighborhoods. It's a low-grade resistance, but I think it's one that ultimately tries to keep in mind the practical understanding of economics. Like it or not, California has a tremendous amount

of immigrants who do incredibly important jobs. Agriculture is an enormous part of that. How America gets its food is mainly through braceros and, you know, people who have been, you know, helping pick fruit, veg in America for decades.

Really a very long time. I mean, there have been patterns of migration long before California even joined the United States. So in a way, I suppose it was meant to be, I think, also because Los Angeles is...

A city, of course, 500 square miles, but it's also a county of almost 4,000 square miles, roughly the size of Jamaica. We are an enormous place. Policing an area like this at the best of times is not easy. But what has always historically generally been the case is that the mayor gets to decide, the governor gets to decide if there's a need for more resources. And in this case, that's not what happened.

The federal government decided to send in the National Guard without being asked for help. I think that's really grating at this point in time, and that's really inflaming tensions and making things difficult and is certainly opening up the conversation about just how political is this? Does anyone really care about safety or is this just an opportunity for point scoring and for...

opportunities to see things on television that will inflame or inspire one's base and push from there. You mentioned seeing Marines on the streets. I've just been going through the archives. Marines, I think, were deployed in 1992 as well. And I know you began earlier on saying that we're nowhere near 1992. And yet the comparison just, I just think, I think we should talk about it because the way this has been reported over the past week

is about this huge scale of of conflagration almost in the same kind of terms and i have seen i think it was a an lapd officer speaking to a i think a bbc journalist or someone saying that i haven't seen anything like this since 92 even if it's not the same scale tell us about 92 and tell us where in your view the comparison stands and where it completely falls down

I think the first thing to do is potentially ground ourselves in the facts as best we can of what happened in 1992. And the fact is that the riots lasted six days. I think they finally ended on Monday, May 4th, 1992. 10,904 arrests had been made.

Over 2,383 people had been injured, 11,113 fires had burned, and more than $1 billion worth of property damage was sustained. And that's in $92, not in $20, $25, which is significantly higher, I assure you. Now, in addition, 60 deaths were attributed to the rioting, but this number is

Yeah.

as many law enforcement agencies as possible in LA County and truly unable to keep a lid on what was happening. I think where we find ourselves now is this is relatively localized to the downtown area. We've also had issues in Paramount and a few other places where raids were responded to, I think perhaps initially on social media and that brought protesters out

Tensions potentially escalated from there. The interesting thing is this. I wonder if this is actually...

Right about the scale of what happened when the Dodgers won the World Series, which is the local baseball team recently. I mean, buses were set on fire and people were in the streets. And I think so far, there were certainly more injuries reported at that time, which again, is not to say that the groundwork that has already been laid, especially with troops coming in mainly around the federal building in downtown, cannot become more difficult and

worrying. But I think we are where we are now and understanding that so much of Los Angeles burned in 92. And that's just not the case. It's not where we are now.

Do you feel that some of the coverage has been a bit too apocalyptic in that case? I think it's Los Angeles and we can't help it. The coverage is almost always apocalyptic, isn't it? I mean, there's a wish to show that. And if anything, perhaps it's safe to say that the most recent wildfires were far more worrying, far more damaging in terms of whether the palisades are up in Altadena, Pasadena area. I mean, the amount of folks displaced,

And I think we're still reeling from that, to be honest. I think it's safe to say that people are exhausted and struggling. And so for this to come along at this time, perhaps, you know, in a way that helps tap into, you know, any number of angers or desperations or difficulties that have already been here. The 1992 riots were famously, infamously sparked by the beating of a black man, Rodney King, by white police officers. There was this big racial element, this issue about

White police black violence there was going around there. No, there are other issues around it Which I'm sure you'd be able to tell us about if we if we have time How would you compare that to the fact this is about law enforcement raids on on a mainly Hispanic? immigrant community and how does that reflect the

I suppose the kind of demographic changes that Los Angeles has undergone in the past 30 years. Well, I think what we can say about 1992 is there absolutely has been a demographic shift primarily of African-Americans leaving Los Angeles, primarily to the east, to Riverside County,

And there has been a larger influx of Latinos into these areas, specifically South Central, Paramount, where one of these, you know, first issues happened a few days ago. So, you know, it's really interesting because it's not the easiest thing to get our arms around. I don't think it's as simple as, you know, A to B here. It really isn't. And nothing really ever is in Los Angeles, to be honest.

I think what we're dealing with more broadly now is our issues of safety, our issues of separating families, our issues of primarily law-abiding citizens who work, as opposed to what everyone saw in 1991 when it was captured on camera was the beating of Rodney King.

That was actually three white police officers and one Latino police officer. A jury acquitted Briseño and Wind, as well as Kuhn of excessive force. They failed to reach a verdict on Lawrence Powell. Although those are the facts, what was more important, at least at that time, was the feeling that what America had seen and what Los Angeles had seen with their own eyes on that videotape made them feel as if a miscarriage of justice had occurred.

America and Los Angeles at large did not get to sit in that courtroom and hear everything as far as the testimony, as far as mitigating circumstances, as far as anything else surrounding it.

The feeling was that, look, this trial took place in Simi Valley, which was a majority white area. It was moved on purpose. It was moved away from the city of Los Angeles to ostensibly have a fair trial, but that was just not the perception. Perception did not match what people felt, and specifically what people felt was anger and seeing that. Someone defenseless being beaten by multiple people with batons. I think ultimately that became was a symbol. Yeah.

So when I was doing a lot of research for All Involved, what I heard, especially in these neighborhoods, whether I was in Linwood or Downey or Paramount or anywhere else, I was genuinely hearing, oh, every neighborhood had a Rodney King. Everyone is aware of this. This is something that happens. So again, when I say symbol, I mean it was taken as a

symptom of a larger whole, broader unfairness, unlawfulness, disappointment, pain. That's ultimately, I think, what led to 92 was just an absolute outpouring of anger. I think I'm most familiar with Paramount, which is a bit closer to the area that I've spent so much time researching, which is

just north of Linwood. It's one thing for this current administration to say, we're targeting the criminals and that's exactly what we're doing here. The vast majority of folks in the United States would say, okay, we're not necessarily on board with

criminals who understand what you're doing, and we hope you can be targeted about it. But I think what they were already showing when they went to a Home Depot and targeted day laborers, and a local council person saw this and was able to get the news out to followers and people in the local area who genuinely cared about these men and women and their families, that created a very different situation. There's a lot of clashes going on here. I mean, there's obviously, you know, there's literal clashes between

law enforcement and protesters, protesters, I suppose, if you support them, rioters, if you, on the other side of the political spectrum, there's the clash between the federal center and the states in this state, you know, the White House and the state of California. There's the more general clash, right? That is playing out throughout America between MAGA and those opposed. Could you lay out how those fault lines come together in Los Angeles? Is the city as a riven

as the country at large, or is it a city that feels more? I mean, it's so huge. It's difficult to get your head around sometimes when you're an outsider talking about it. Is it a city generally unified on these, on these questions, or is it as divided as Riven? Do you think as America at large? It's a great question. And I don't think there is an easy answer, you know, as much as I would love to be able to give one and you would love to be able to hear one. I think

It's safe to say that my sense of things in LA is that we are not as riven as the country at large, although there does seem to be, as you put it, a larger MAGA presence here than Trump's previous presidential term. Because you're right, it's clash on top of clash on top of clash on top of clash. What you may have is...

federal government versus state of California. You've got mayor versus governor. You've got the governor coming down here and saying he's willing to be arrested, which could set up any number of extremely difficult scenarios and could potentially be something unlike we've ever seen in the United States before. The Marines have arrived this morning. They aren't

precisely trained in de-escalation, which might be quite useful, at least at this point in time. And I think, Roland, you put your finger on something here, which is that language is important too. What one side will say and what another side will say, how things will be cast according to

who may believe with you ideologically, is really a big deal at this point. But interestingly, I think it was a big deal in 92 as well, because you had some people calling it the riots, and you have others even to this day. And I think it's now even the position of the Los Angeles Times to call it the uprising, which is a fascinating use of language and perhaps even a growth in our understanding and

our lens on how we view that time. But I would also say what's fascinating is everything about this feels like a trap, if I may say so. I mean, it's almost as if you know Los Angeles is a little bit volatile, you know we have the spirit in Los Angeles to stand up for ourselves, don't like being bullied, don't ever wish to be bullied. It's really got all the makings of

of a very real political clash, but also potentially a class down the streets, which obviously serves some folks in their worldview abundantly well, depending on what those images might be and how they can be framed accordingly. I was just actually reading, I think on Monday, Gustavo Arellano was saying in the LA Times that uprisings

have a time and a place. And I think he also referred to it as a trap, but not when it's a trap that you willingly run into. Because I think it's safe to say that that's probably where we are now might very well be what Los Angeles is dealing with for

weeks, months, and even years with this particular administration if they indeed dig in and wish to make an example of Los Angeles. And I would say the broader context here is that as Los Angeles goes, so goes America. In some cases, that's really great in terms of arts or culture or music or food or anything else. But it's also true of the bad things, the negative things, or things that simply need addressing that can't be addressed in, I'm sad to say, but a peaceful manner.

I think that's also the context for why I say it's potentially such a worrying time, because I think, look, they will come for...

Los Angeles now, but I think the Los Angeles Times was even reporting this morning that raids will be widening in California and will be targeting agricultural communities, which once again, that points back to the economic question that we discussed and food scarcity and potential food shortages and rising cost of food. It's one thing to shout that this is about immigration and immigration only, but it's another thing to just step back slightly and realize, wait a second, there's a whole

ecosystem here that absolutely uses immigration as a way of providing labor, specifically low-cost labor, in order to either deliver goods to market or provide services. What we're dealing with, I think,

is a broader problem on the ground here, but also spreading to California that will potentially spread to the United States at large and in various potentially more targeted ways. I think it's safe to say that whatever they learn here, they will potentially apply elsewhere all over the United States. Los Angeles has always been volatile. It has always been a rollout, the old hackneyed term, melting pot. There has been massive demographic change there. You have seen, you know,

the huge numbers of Hispanics moving in, blacks leaving. I think California or LA at least has some relatively recently became majority non-white. The reason I'm harping on this is because it seems to me that this is a driving theme of the entire kind of current division in the United States. And the anxiety about immigration clearly is something that Donald Trump appeals to and that MAGA voters vote along those lines.

Is there sympathy for that concern in LA? Amongst people who've seen vast amounts of immigration, even more immigration than they have previously, is there a way of, I don't know, sitting in LA, are you able to say, yeah, I can see why people have anxieties about this? I think that's a fascinating and important question and certainly not an easy one. Personally, and again, I am only speaking for myself, I am speaking for absolutely no one else, I view it as...

an abject, unapologetic, amazing good. I don't know that I spend a tremendous amount of time with folks who may view a demographic shift as a bad thing, as difficult, as worrying, as something that needs to be fought against, and I don't at all. I play football on the weekends with folks probably from 13, 14, 15 different countries and

The thing that's so fascinating about Los Angeles is it's never just about that first wave of immigration. It's the second generation. It's the third generation. It's the fourth generation. It's what people are able to bring with them from a familial and cultural point of view that just adds to the tapestry of what Los Angeles is. And I think what Los Angeles ultimately is

at least at this point in my very narrow understanding,

is just a titan of hybridism, you know, in terms of culture and being able to see connections, meld things, bring them together. And, you know, that crosses every line, whether cultural, you know, economic, food, music. I mean, it's truly stunning to be in Los Angeles and have North African tacos and then go to, you know, a performance of Rufus

Russian ballet and then go to the cinema and see something from France and then spend your evening in a cocktail bar in Little Tokyo. We are the world. Los Angeles is a condensed...

incredible world unto itself. And yet I think it's also a celebration of humanity, what we're good at, what we're wonderful at doing. And a lot of that is communication and collaboration. What about the dark side of that? It's the city that gave the world, I mean, NWA and the riots. And so a friend of mine, a relative of mine, drove cabs in LA in the 80s and 90s. He was driving during the riots and he tells these stories

really hair-raising stories about kind of you know the crack epidemic all of that kind of thing and and the other thing he often says to me about about america writ large but los angeles in particular because it's where he lived is about how you know you can you can be anything but if you fall through the cracks it's it's 10 times worse than what will happen to you anywhere else are there other things going in la that that feed into you know a sense of

or social breakdown at the moment? Well, at the risk of being, you know, kind of shockingly and worryingly self-promotional, I would say, look, if you're curious at all about some of the darkness in LA and what happens when people fall through cracks and how systems work, whether law enforcement or otherwise, my books are probably not a terrible place to start, you know, as far as getting a sense of that. Because a big part of what

I did and have done for my research is talk to people, not unlike your friend who drove cabs. And I've heard hundreds of hair-raising stories that span decades. But that being said, I think you also referenced NWA, which is art, which is music, which is culture, which influences the world and also reflects culture.

the world that they're living in, and tries to make it known, make it clear, and ideally, potentially, hopefully, and I think it's safe to say they did, create change. Now, I hear what you're saying as far as what are the broader, more difficult things or the things that might be under the surface that might create broader tensions or worries or fears. That's always been the case in LA. We have budget issues.

We have a homelessness crisis that's unlike anything I've ever seen. And it somehow keeps getting worse, even though almost every couple of years, the voters will vote for measures to help provide for folks who are on the streets or who need help. And yet nothing so far seems to help. But generally speaking, I think Los Angeles likes to keep its own house. Generally speaking, we might not always be great at it, but we want to be the ones doing it.

So when the federal government comes in and says, you know, we think it's this, this, and this, and you shouldn't be doing this and shouldn't be doing that. I think that's what ultimately gets people's backs up and gets them really angry and upset when look all the anger and upset in America. I think as if, as if I can somehow speak to it, look, there are so many things that aren't working economically, you know, and, and, and we have a, we have a chunk of the electorate who can remember when, um,

Families in America could live on one income. That's definitely not the case anymore. Certainly not the case in Los Angeles for all kinds of reasons, whether rising real estate or difficulty finding work or anything else. Things have changed. Economics, generally speaking, do not benefit a large enough portion of America and of the electorate, and people are angry on both sides.

Where I think we fundamentally disagree, potentially, is the ways and means with which to potentially address that. Attacking immigration, attacking folks with the least protections is not necessarily the way to do it, especially when it is an underpinning of an economic system that is here whether we like it or not at this point. On the one hand, this has been wildly blown out of proportion.

The recent fires were much, much worse. It's not that different to the Dodgers winning the World Series. When did they win the World Series, by the way? Last year. Last year, okay. And the exuberance that followed that. And it's certainly nowhere near the scale of 1992.

And yet, on the other hand, you say, look, yes, this is LA. This is a place that kicks off from time to time. We've always done it. We always will do it. And we can see this thing going on. And there seems to be a certain worry in your voice about where this could lead. How worried are you about how deep or how serious of a confrontation this could become? Is there a point at which this could happen?

become even more violent. I think there's absolutely a point at which it could become more violent. What that flashpoint is, I don't know. But if this becomes an increasingly drawn-out occupation, which it seems to show signs of becoming, and the political will, at least from a federal point of view, is to dig in, then the longer that happens, on a long enough timeline,

Things could get bad. Perhaps you'll forgive me for not giving you the world's greatest quote about where we could end up, because I live here. I would rather not think about every possible permutation, but I just can't see an occupational force, whether National Guard or ICE or even Marines, which I doubt will last very long, especially when the mayor and the governor are against it. You're right, the lines are drawn.

There is absolutely a fundamental difference in how they see LA and how it needs to be handled. And when those two things are present, and you've got a bunch of folks who have guns, and you have folks who are willing to throw concrete, it absolutely can kick off. And I pray it doesn't. The longer it drags on, the harder it is for, I think, Los Angeles at large to

to be thoughtful and determined and patient. And it just becomes tougher and tougher. The writer Ryan Gattis there, speaking to us from Los Angeles. That's all for Battlelines this week. My co-host, Venetia Rainey, will be back in a chair on Monday with a special dispatch from NATO exercises on the Baltic island of Gotland. Until then, that was Battlelines. Goodbye.

Battle Lines is an original podcast from The Telegraph, created by David Knowles and hosted by me, Roland Oliphant and Venetia Rainey. If you appreciated this podcast, please consider following Battle Lines on your preferred podcast app.

And if you have a moment, leave a review, as it helps others to find the show. To stay on top of all our news, subscribe to The Telegraph, sign up to our Dispatches newsletter, or listen to our sister podcast, Ukraine The Latest. You can also get in touch directly by emailing battlelines at telegraph.co.uk or contact us on X. You can find our handles in the show notes. The producer is Peter Sheflin, and the executive producer is Louisa Wells.

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