Combat time anxiety, with Chris Guillebeau
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You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Hey, listeners. I am all about simple beauty routines. That's why I love Merit. Their products make looking put together effortless. For example, there's Flush Balm, which is a sheer, buildable cream blush that blends in seamlessly for a healthy, natural glow. And let's not forget The Minimalist, which is a two-in-one foundation and concealer that's perfect for those days when you need quick, natural coverage.

So if you're looking to streamline your beauty routine too, head to MeritBeauty.com. You'll get their signature makeup bag free with your first order. Simplify your routine and feel beautiful with Merit. Hey, listeners. I need to tell you about Hill House Home. I love this brand. They invented the viral nap dress. And let me tell you, it is so flattering and comfortable with their signature smocking. I'm not the only one who loves Hill House dresses. So if you're looking to streamline your beauty routine too,

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Again, that's code BREAKFAST15 for 15% off your order at hillhousehome.com. Some stands for so others mighty, and I am a grateful beneficiary. That's how I started my journey of recovery. Fifteen years later, I'm gainfully employed. I've moved from homelessness to a safe and secure place to owning my own home today.

If these walls could talk, they would say safety. JPMorgan Chase Community Development Banking understands that the buildings we invest in are more than just four walls. They are you. They are us. They are Washington, D.C. Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good morning. This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast.

Today's episode is going to be a longer one, part of the series where I interview fascinating people about how they take their days from great to awesome and any advice they might have for the rest of us.

So today I am excited to welcome Chris Guillebeau to the show. Chris is the author of a brand new book called Time Anxiety. You might also know him from Side Hustle School or The Art of Nonconformity. So Chris, welcome to the show. Thank you so much, Laura. It's a huge honor to be here. I'm a big fan of you, as you know, reading your blog for many years. So this is very exciting. I'm excited to have you. So why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?

Sure. A little about myself. Well, I was born at a young age. It's always like a dangerous question, right? So what is pertinent? You know, in my early 20s, I spent a few years as an aid worker in West Africa. That was like a very transformative time for me, led to me traveling to a bunch of other places and just getting interested in like cross-cultural things. I'd always kind of worked for myself. I was like this classic unemployable

you know, archetype. Like I really like to work on things I'm excited about. It's very ADHD. But if I'm not excited about it, then I don't want to work on it at all. So you have to kind of work for yourself. So did lots of little entrepreneurial projects, had a project of going to every country in the world, which I started in 2008 and wrote a blog about it called The Art of Nonconformity. That's kind of how I started writing and sharing online.

Been doing some version of that ever since. Started writing books, started this podcast that I've been doing every day for 2,800 days now. And I hosted an event called the World Domination Summit, which you were a keynote speaker at, an opening keynote speaker one year, which was really fun.

and I have a really wonderful community. So I'm writing a little bit more about neurodivergence and mental health and related topics these days, but I try to work on things I'm excited about. Yeah, and you actually made it to all of the countries, correct? I did, yes. Including the ones that we are...

not supposed to go to anymore, I take it. Yes, that's right. Yeah, it was actually easier a few years ago than it is now. Yeah, okay. People are still doing this quest, but I think it was a little bit easier, yeah, back in the early 2010s. Back in the early 2000s before there were fewer restrictions. Yeah, it is an amazing thing to contemplate doing. But, yeah,

to talk a little bit about what time anxiety is. So what is this concept of time anxiety? I'm curious, I mean, not to derail, because I'll answer directly. But when I first started doing like the research for this book, I had this phrase, and I started just asking people about it. I'd be curious what the concept time anxiety means to you, Laura, without even any context of the book and such. But I started just

checking with people and like, people are like, what are you working on? I was like, I'm exploring this concept. Um, and I, I come to it honest. I don't come to it as like a academic or a researcher. Like I, I actually felt like my life was kind of governed by this sense of like, I feel like I'm running out of time. There's not enough time to do what I want. And I mean, you've written about this extensively, you know, from your own perspective and such. Um,

And how do I decide what to do next in the face of so many options and such? So I started asking people or I started telling them I'm working on this concept called time anxiety. And almost everyone would have a really strong opinion about it. They would have an experience with it. They would say, I have this thing. I talk about this with my friends all the time, but we didn't have a name for it. You know, like, I feel like this is like the greatest problem of my life. You know, some people would even say, yeah.

So for me, I think it's, you know, there are two types of it. It's one is this existential type of time is running out in my life, right? And or maybe there's something I should be doing, but I don't quite know what it is. And I have the sense or maybe I have some regret over things I have done or not done in the past and feel like I can't change that now. And then the second type is just the day to day routine of how do I, you know, kind of triage and sequence

my work and my life and my relationships and my hobbies and all the, you know, how do I make these choices in this world of knowledge work? Even if you have like a somewhat defined job, you know, for a lot of people doing knowledge work, there's like an infinite array of, you know, the tasks that you work on and how you

you know, approach and schedule them. And so it can be really overwhelming. And so that's the second part. I think you had talked a little bit about it being like the sense that you're always behind in some way or another. Sure. Yeah. Always behind and not sure how to course correct or, you know, like if you ask people like what they really want, a lot of people say, I want to catch up.

You know, I want like if I had an extra day, you know, how would I spend how would you spend it? And you expect that they would say, like, I, you know, would have like a vacation or something. But it's like I would catch up on my email. That's my greatest aspiration is I would catch up. And I kind of felt like this way myself for a long time. And so I felt like it was really troubling. And like, what do we what do we do about it? But yeah, it's curious. I mean, the idea of catching up or being behind implies that there's some objective standard of where everyone is supposed to be, which I guess I've never figured out where that standard was.

was kept or who decided that. We're all suffering from our time anxiety. In the book, I wanted to talk, you know, you have a lot of different tips and hacks of things to try, which I loved about the book. It's very practical. But I want to talk about one specific issue you mentioned, time blindness. So now what is time blindness and how can people address this? Yeah.

So it's kind of a neurodivergent e-concept. So for anybody with ADHD or autism or anybody who identifies with any conditions like that, but not exclusively, a lot of people can have time blindness, which is basically like where we kind of chronically identify

underestimate, underestimate or overestimate how much time something takes. And this leads to us kind of always feeling rushed, like always feeling rushed or always being behind. So if you were the kind of person who's always late, you probably don't like that about yourself. You know, it's not like, oh, this is just...

But your friends have kind of like gotten used to it, like so and so is always late to things. But it's in this case, it's probably because you are not estimating, you know, the amount of time that's required for transitions and such. And people will also go the other way and like overestimate time too. But yeah.

A really simple thing to do, and this is not like mind blowing, but it can actually change your life is simply to allow like 10 or 15 more minutes than you think you need, you know, for transitions. And it's going to be the coolest thing because now you are like five minutes early to things. And what's interesting is when I've shared that with people, some people really are worried about like.

well, what will I do with the five extra minutes? You know, and like, this is not a problem. This is a good thing to have, take a book with you, right. Or do something, you know, like it's a good thing to have extra padding, like to have buffer and margin in your life is actually, it provides relief, I think. And I think what a lot of people are looking for more than organization. And again, I'd be curious what you think about it, but like more than organization or hyper optimization, what they're looking for is relief, a sense of like, help me feel better.

Yeah. Well, and the thing is, honestly, people who are chronically late, adding in 10 to 15 minutes is not going to make them early. They will probably be there right on time. So, you know, it's really one of those funny things. And yeah, people are always like, but what? I could have emptied the dishwasher before I left. But we just need to nip that thought right there. Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and then I will be back with more from Chris Guillebeau.

Hey listeners, I am all about simple beauty routines. That's why I love Merit. Their products make looking put together effortless. For example, there's Flush Balm, which is a sheer, buildable cream blush that blends in seamlessly for a healthy natural glow. And let's not forget The Minimalist, which is a two-in-one foundation and concealer that's perfect for those days when you need quick, natural coverage.

So if you're looking to streamline your beauty routine too, head to MeritBeauty.com. You'll get their signature makeup bag free with your first order. Simplify your routine and feel beautiful with Merit. Hey, listeners. Have you heard about Hill House Home? I absolutely love them. They created the viral nap dress, and it is the most flattering and comfy fit ever with their signature smocking. Celebrities like Taylor Swift and Mindy Kaling are fans too.

What I adore about Hill House dresses is their versatility. Wear one for errands by day and parties by night.

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For 15% off. Some stands for So Others Mighty, and I am a grateful beneficiary. That's how I started my journey of recovery. 15 years later, I'm gainfully employed. I've moved from homelessness to a safe and secure place to owning my own home today.

If these walls could talk, they would say safety. JPMorgan Chase Community Development Banking understands that the buildings we invest in are more than just four walls. They are you. They are us. They are Washington, D.C. Well, I am back with Chris Guillebeau, who is the author of the brand new book, Time Anxiety. We've been talking about time blindness. If you find yourself always late, how you can just add 10 to 15 minutes and you will

Probably beyond time. You may find yourself early, but that would be a happy thing that you could celebrate if that happens. So you mentioned people feeling like they would spend their extra time getting caught up on email. I know from the book Time Anxiety that you find email particularly stressful in case anyone listening to this also suffers from that anxiety. I wonder if there's anything you've done to help yourself there.

Yeah. I mean, this kind of ruled my life in a negative way for many years. And I felt really bad about it. Like I was very bad about getting back to people and getting back to people that I cared about. You probably wrote me at some point. I wrote you back three months later. And I would begin almost every email with the same sentence, which is like, I'm so sorry for the delay in reply. And so I have this whole chapter about the inbox of shame. And I honestly felt like I'm just always letting people down. And

It wasn't just a matter of like, oh, I need to schedule 20 minutes into my, I need to like, sometimes I would have time and I would have this great resistance to like, there's this block over, there's something I'm dreading and I can't like force myself to do it. I think this is also like a neurodivergent kind of thing.

and understanding that sometimes really small things can be difficult to do. And so I think there's a process of it. Like I wrote a little bit about radical acceptance. Some of it is you just accept like there are some things that you are going to be better at than others.

You can try to, and you write about this, like minimizing some of your communication and closing off some inboxes so that you don't have, you know, the ability to get a direct message on every single platform and such. Ultimately, I think you just, you do what you can, like you try to do what you can. You try to prioritize like the important relationships.

and not worry as much about everything else. I also do things like the inbox bankruptcy, where I'm just like, okay, I've had all these messages there forever and I'm not doing anything about it. This is probably going to stress you out, right? You would never do this. But some of your listeners are probably more like me. And they've just had all these things there for so long. And so the whole point is, if you just archive or delete and move on, then...

Yes, you may feel a little bit bad about some of that stuff, but you've been feeling bad about it and not doing anything about it. And now you're going to do a better job moving forward with things. So that helps me from time to time. Yeah. No, honestly, I mean, I don't respond to everything instantly or anything like that. But I do an email triage is what I call it every like two to three days and try to get myself to current. And sometimes that involves deciding that I'm not going to respond to something, which, you know. And you have your Friday list, you know, which I know. The world has not stopped spinning yet.

So it seems to be okay at this point. So Chris, what is a reverse bucket list? I love this idea of a reverse bucket list. A reverse bucket list is about celebrating what you've actually already done, what you've already accomplished. So obviously listeners know that the bucket list is like, oh, here's all the things that I want to do. I want to go to Paris and I want to go bungee jumping and, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And I'm very future minded. I tend to be very goal oriented. Yeah.

But always being future minded means sometimes that I don't appreciate the present or actually reflect on, oh, I've been able to do some cool things. I have been to Paris. I don't actually care about bungee jumping. So the reverse bucket list is like, this is a list of things I have done, you know, and it can be any, it can be bucket list like items. It can be accomplishments of any kind. It can be

relationships that you are proud of or times that you've made good choices in relationships, times that you've showed up for yourself. I mean, it's your list, right? So it's a good, it's a way of like, look, I actually have done, you know, a lot. And so I think, so there's the big picture bucket list, reverse bucket list kind of thing. But I also think even at the end of the day, just a short little, because we have a to-do list, you know, we always have like our running stuff that we got to do and then we check it off and it's gone. I think it can also be helpful like at the end of the day, for example, or a week to be like,

what are three things I actually did today, not just the three things I need to do going forward. Because I tend to just finish stuff and move on, finish stuff and move on. And I think it's really helpful to decide what's enough, and then I can celebrate that. Yeah. Well, I'm a big fan of daily celebrations. We should have more celebrations in general. I mean, I've added stuff to my to-do list that I've done just to cross it off. So I like giving that little gold star. Yeah.

So you mentioned that when you ask people what they do with an extra day of the week, many people suggest that they get caught up on their email. But you suggest that people actually do an exercise of thinking what they would do on an extra day of the week. And I presume you don't want them to do email. So maybe talk a little bit about that exercise and why it's helpful. Yeah, I had to take catching up off the list of options. So the idea is instead of thinking about your one single ideal perfect day, which is kind of another thought exercise,

And that can be helpful, but it also is like pressure inducing. Like it's like one day it's got to be perfect. You know, what if you had an extra day every week? And so it's the eighth day of the week. You got seven days a week, but now there's an extra day. And on this day, not only can you not use it to catch up, you know, presumably you have other responsibilities and obligations and such on the other days. But on this day, nobody is asking you for anything. Right. So it's your day. And the key point is it repeats. So, you know, you get 52 of them a year.

So what would you do on that day? And if you think of it in that context, I think it's more helpful than just thinking about like, what do I want to do with my life or what's that single day?

Because sequentially, you can do a lot, right? And Laura, you're the model of this, right? With like, War and Peace and the Bach and everything else that you do. So it's like, you know, people can write a book in a year, you know, using this framework, they can learn a language, they can learn something else, they can practice something. So I think it just kind of helps you get in tune with what you really want. And I think,

A lot of people don't think very deeply about that. What is it that I really want to get out of life? And what is it that I want now? And what do I want in the future? And how can I be kind to my future self? What are the choices I need to make now so that my future self will be able to do, you know, whatever that thing is? And maybe just to give it, make it even more simple.

just a really practical thing is like as you're going through the day, like maybe you're doing the trademark Laura Vanderkam time tracking system, which I love and respect and have talked about many times. But you can also just intuitively maybe just notice and ask yourself, like, what do I want more of and what do I want less of? And I think when people do that,

They tend to just like moving forward, kind of interact differently with the world. Once you know, oh, I want more of this or I want less of this. I don't actually want to talk to this person all the time. Maybe I have to talk to them some of the time, but, you know, I want to lessen those interactions. And I'm actually really enjoying, you know, these puzzles that I'm working or something else. And like, be cool if I spend more time doing that.

Yeah, yeah. On the eighth day of the week, we would not be talking to that person. Exactly. Yeah. Well, I think the idea is most people don't. We don't really think about what we'd like to spend a lot more time doing because people assume they have no time. So what would be the point of asking what you want to do more time? But if you think about it, then hopefully we can start to build that into the 168 hours we have in the week without actually getting 192 hour week. Right, right, right. Very good. Yeah, exactly. I think you could do it strategically or you do it intuitively and like both.

Both ways are going to help. Ultimately, you're going to be better off. Excellent. Well, we are going to take one more quick ad break and I will be back with Chris. Hey, listeners, I am all about simple beauty routines. That's why I love Merit. Their products make looking put together effortless. For example, there's Flush Balm, which is a sheer, buildable cream blush that blends in seamlessly for a healthy, natural glow.

And let's not forget the Minimalist, which is a two-in-one foundation and concealer that's perfect for those days when you need quick, natural coverage.

So if you're looking to streamline your beauty routine too, head to MeritBeauty.com. You'll get their signature makeup bag free with your first order. Simplify your routine and feel beautiful with Merit. Hey, listeners. I need to tell you about Hill House Home. I love this brand. They invented the viral nap dress. And let me tell you, it is so flattering and comfortable with their signature smocking. I'm not the only one who loves Hill House dresses. So if you're looking to streamline your beauty routine too,

Celebrities like Taylor Swift, Olivia Rodrigo, Anne Hathaway, and Mindy Kaling have all been spotted in the Hill House nap dress. One of my favorite things about Hill House dresses is how versatile they are. I can wear the same dress during the day and then head out for dinner at night without missing a beat. Hill House Homes' commitment to comfort and style doesn't stop at their dresses. They started with bedding back in 2016, and their prints are just gorgeous.

Their bathrobes and pajamas are so soft because guess what? The PJs are made with the same cotton fabric as their baby onesies. So when I wear them, I literally sleep like a baby. Hill House is perfect for all ages. They have the cutest baby and kids items like tiny robes, onesies, and PJs you can monogram. All just adorable.

So get 15% off your order of $100 or more at hillhousehome.com with code BREAKFAST15.

Again, that's code BREAKFAST15 for 15% off your order at hillhousehome.com. Some stands for so others mighty, and I am a grateful beneficiary. That's how I started my journey of recovery. Fifteen years later, I'm gainfully employed. I've moved from homelessness to a safe and secure place to owning my own home today.

If these walls could talk, they would say safety. JPMorgan Chase Community Development Banking understands that the buildings we invest in are more than just four walls. They are you. They are us. They are Washington, D.C. Well, I am back interviewing Chris Guillebeau, who's the author of the brand new book, Time Anxiety. He's also the author of the book, The Art of Nonconformity, and telling us all about his amazing projects, like visiting all of the countries in the world back in the day. So, Chris, thank you so much for being here.

Among the happy tips in your book is to think about death once a day. Yeah. Isn't that great? Why should we have this memento mori every day? What's in that for us? It's so interesting. I was talking with Ryan Holiday about this recently because he has a similar take. Yeah.

I think not everybody has the same awareness of mortality. Everyone has an intellectual awareness of mortality, which is like everyone dies. We know this, but to have a more personal awareness is like someday I will die. And when I was doing the country quest, I wrote a book about other people doing quests of all kinds and such. And one of the commonalities I found among them is that they often had this more personal awareness of mortality. Maybe they had had

something that happened to them, a close call of their own, or they had lost someone close to them, or maybe not. But they had this more personal understanding of it. And instead of being pressure-inducing or a sad and scary thing, well, maybe it is a sad and scary thing, but it could also be a purpose-inducing thing. And it kind of makes you think, well, okay, life is short. We know that

intellectually, but what does it look like to live each day with that understanding? And maybe I will make different choices if I just remember, okay, I won't get this day back. Time is precious, right? You write about this a lot. So for me, thinking about death is not meant to be an overly negative thing. It's meant to be like,

I want to do more. You know, I don't actually want to be a minimalist. I don't want to like less is not the answer. You know, I want, there's some things I want to do less of. Um, but actually I like, I love my life and I want to do more stuff that's exciting. And I, I want to set goals and I want to get closer to people that I care about and like,

try to have as much impact as possible. And part of the reason that I want that and other people want that is because we realize that time is limited, right? What is it that you say? What's the classic phrase that we borrowed, I think at WDS one year,

You know it better than me. It's the Laura Vanderkam phrase. - Uh-oh, I don't know. - Yes. - I don't have time means it's not a priority? No, no. - No, it's about the choose well. - Expectations are infinite. Time is finite. - Right. - You are always choosing. - Right, choose well. - Choose well. - All right, there you go. Choose well, yes. - There you go, perfect. - All right, we're gonna choose well. Well, one of the things you want us to choose, Chris, though, making this a little lighter now, is a granny hobby.

So why are we choosing a granny hobby? And what is yours? Sure. Oh, yeah. Wow. Okay. I wasn't prepared for the second part. You're telling other people they need a granny hobby. It's true. It's true. So a granny hobby, and some people might prefer the term cozy hobby, but granny hobby is not meant to be disrespectful in any way. Granny hobby, thinking of something like crafting or knitting or crochet or baking or gardening. You know, we think about like some of the things that our grandmothers or grandfathers, you know,

might traditionally do. And like, I grew up like gardening with my grandma and it was like this really special time. So there's actually a lot of research. It's not just like, oh, this is a fun thing to do. There's a lot of research that a tactile, something that is tactile and sensory and low stakes is,

um, can actually like increase our cognitive, uh, you know, attention, our focus, as well as reducing our anxiety. So the low stakes is key, right? It's like, it's relatively easy to learn to do the basics of a lot of these kinds of crafts, and then you can get better at them over time. Um, but it's not that hard. And if you mess up, it's okay, right? If you, if you, if the cake gets burned in the oven, then you can bake another cake the next day. You haven't

like sent the email, you know, like CC the entire office on the wrong email or something. Right. So low stakes, it's tactile. It reduces anxiety. And it's also like, I think the person that I borrowed this idea from Anu, I mentioned her in the book. She also calls it like hands-on thumbs down. So you technically, you're still using your thumb, but you're not scrolling on a device. So it's a device free. So what I actually don't know if I have at the moment, a good granny or cozy hobby. Yeah.

Yeah, I like some board games, but I'm not actively like playing them right now. So maybe I need to work on that after the book launch and tour. Yeah, find my my granny hubby. You're gonna find your granny hubby. Thank you for the challenge. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, are there any particular you mentioned? I mean, among the many things you do, you know, your daily podcast for 2800 days. I mean, that's a that's a pretty long time. I'm curious about your daily routines. If there are any routines you have that you feel make you more productive?

I love this thing about how we all have like two to three hours a day of like, you know, productive energy of like this cognitive focus. And the more and more I have thought about it, the more I understand how true it is for me. And I've tried to be really protective of that time. I think that's the biggest thing. I mean, I do exercise every day, I run every morning. And so I like to have that. And then I like to not schedule myself a lot in the morning. Typically, I like to have that time.

just for creative work that I can structure however I see fit. I do like these repetitive kinds of projects. I find a lot of comfort in making the podcast every day. You'll understand this perfectly. It is easier for me to make it every day than it would be to make it three days a week. And that's something that not everybody understands. They're just, "Oh, seven days a week for seven years." I'm like, "No, no, that's the secret." It would have been harder if it was weekly.

So I tend to like a lot of those kinds of like building blocks, milestones of things. And so I think the trick is to make sure you're doing the right things because I also want to say, and I try to be very like candid in the book. Like it sounds like I have all this expertise and I've done all this stuff, but I actually really had like a mental breakdown and really, really struggled and felt like I was getting, I was so into the productivity, like industrial complex that,

that I was getting good at doing the wrong things. Like I was getting really, really efficient at being ineffective. And so I think it's, you know, I think it's just important to mention that, that it was a little bit of a journey that I've been on. Yeah. Well, we've all been on our journeys. And I guess one last thing about a journey here, Chris. I mean, normally I ask people that I interview what they've done recently to take a day from great to awesome.

Um, but I'm not going to let you choose because I want you to talk about the time you walked 20 miles to dinner. Okay. This was so fun. Um, and I had never done this before. Um, yeah, I just had this idea maybe three or four days in advance. Um, so it wasn't like, uh, completely spontaneous, but it wasn't super planned. Um, there was a restaurant 20 miles, uh, from me in San Diego. And, um,

I was like, I should walk there. And I was like, okay, was there a good route for that? And how much time would that... I mean, I do run every day. So I am somewhat used to those kinds of things. I've done marathons, but I've never actually walked for hours and hours and hours.

And so I just had this idea and it wouldn't leave me alone. And I thought, well, it could be like a really dumb thing, but it's also low stakes again. Like if I don't like it, okay. And so I did that. Like I left it around lunchtime and I got to the restaurant at like right after 7 p.m. I made a 7 p.m. reservation and I showed up like right after 10 minutes after lunch.

Um, and I, it was so much fun there. I, I ordered this like large pan of cornbread that's supposed to be like a shared appetizer and obviously I ate the whole thing myself. Um, and then afterwards I took an Uber back, which took like 25 minutes, you know, and I'm passing like all the ways that I had, um, all the things that I had passed on my course. It's funny. Cause I thought when I went on this long walk that I was going to be productive, you know, it's just how I think.

I was like, I'm going to make some phone calls. I'm going to do some stuff. But then like my phone battery, like charged down, like within the first couple of hours, cause you're using GPS. And I was like, oh, oh, okay. So I really do just have to, I can't even listen to music for most of that walk. And so it's just a, it's a small, small thing that is now a core memory of mine. And it wasn't that hard to do. And so the reason I did it, I probably should have said this first is I just, I found myself too much in the routine and

And I wanted to disrupt it a little bit. And so I have a chapter in the book about practice having fun. And how do you actually practice having fun? And for me, that's that is a little bit of a journey because I like to work. So it was good for me. It was good. All right. Well, people can try that if they wish or, you know, maybe just do something else. That's a little adventure for you. Well, Chris, where can people find you?

Oh, thank you, Laura. So the new book is Time Anxiety, timeanxiety.com. There's some information about the book. I'm doing a tour across North America. And then I write a weekly newsletter, yearofmentalhealth.com. You can read it there. And then I'm on social media at Chris Guillebeau, which nobody can spell. But if you type in something close to that, you'll get to me.

That sounds good. Well, Chris, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, everyone, for listening. If you have feedback on this or any other episode, you can reach me at Laura at LauraVanderkam.com. In the meantime, this is Laura. Thanks for listening. And here's to making the most of our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach me at Laura at LauraVanderkam.com.

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