Better Offline CES 2025: Day 6 - Epilogue
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Welcome to the final episode of Better Offline's coverage of the Consumer Electronics Show. I love you all. We love you, Sarah. Better Offline. All right. So we've made it, everyone. We're on the final day is Saturday, January 11th. We have all...

We conferenced ourselves out a bit. We had a wonderful positive masculinity day. We went out and got brunch. We went and got massages tonight. We're going to go get dinner. But we're here for kind of an epilogue episode. Because yesterday I thought was going to be less of a close, but it turned out to be a real finale. So really this is just about what we've learned at the CES. So Phil, what have you learned at the CES? What is it? Oddly, it's an ergonomics thing. Okay. Okay.

So we just got massages, and man, I feel so much better than I did. Right. Five days standing on my feet on marble. In my multi-decade career of gambling in this fine city and its many beautiful slot machines we previously discussed, I've gotten to sample a lot of rooms, a lot of decor, and one of the things that I've picked up is the more high-end your room is...

the less carpet you get. So you get a lot of marble to stand on, which is awful on your feet. And I came back and I, earlier today, I went looking at the pit bosses and the dealers and realized they're standing on marble too. I cannot imagine trying to work an entire day standing on that out there. So what was the, what was the lesson you learned though? Ouchy? The richer you are, the more you're going to hurt for style. Yeah.

Yeah. The problem is people keep thinking about rich and hurt a little too much at the moment. And I don't really want to fuel that conversation. So...

The thing is more comfortable shoes, I guess you need. Possibly. Yeah. We need to get you like a little kitchen pad. Actually, I'm saying that facetiously when that actually might be the solution to the problem. Because Phil has been tending bar. If you're for some reason choosing the epilogue episode to start with, you're my kind of freak. By the way, I am joined by, of course, health physicist and bartender, Phil Broaden, who has been, I think you've served, what, at least 100 drinks this week?

Oh, well, based on the stacks of my cups, well more. We're probably in the 200 range.

Yeah, and you've seen most of the tech media. It's been lovely. Phil has been working his ass off, and we're all very grateful. Most of the tech media is grateful. I say that as if some of them wouldn't be, and, well, maybe. They'd get 86 from my bar if they were. Yeah, that's true. I don't think that's the case. We've had, like, an unrelenting horde of very pleasant, lovely people. And talking of that, Mr. Edward Ongueso Jr. joins us for our last day here. Hello, hello. How are you feeling, Ed? I'm fighting the itis.

You got the itis? I mean, I have an unconscionable amount of food in my belly. Yeah, we fed, just to be clear, I fed the boys up. I've been gorged. And we're only doing more of it tonight. This morning. And more to come. Yeah, more to come.

You can do it. Do it, man. Dude, yeah, I woke up with a heartburn and a slightly collapsed lung, and I had to inflate again. But other than that, you know, I'm doing great. Average better offline listener. Yeah. Just one step closer to the end. I just want to be clear, by the way. I feel great, man.

My masseuse told me that my body is actually doing pretty well and that I need to keep doing yoga. So the answer here is that the more you speak on the mic, the better you feel. The more powerful you become. The more power you accumulate over the course of this. But I think it's been...

It's been my favorite CES ever. And Phil, at this point, has been to eight with me. This is the eighth. And I think what was really fun about it, other than the fact that I got to just do a weird radio show for like 13 hours, is that it's given me a lot of hope about the tech media. Not that I was like blackpilled or anything. Not that I was like, oh, this is all bad. But you talk to people, people engage with it.

three people from NKJ or like Max Cherney from Reuters and all of these people who are like so passionate and actually rave they gave a shit and they gave a shit and they were strategic about how they gave a shit and the way they talked about it and I think you as the listeners can kind of agree with me it's really heartening to hear others talk about this because I feel like the bylines that some people are under they kind of rob them of that passion yeah actually some of the best talks talks

interviews for our reporters that came to visit to talk about the things where you, I'm not going to say you crowbarred out of them for, tell me the best thing you saw, the thing that made you happiest when you were on the floor. The thing they saw that invariably made all of them happiest seemed to be when they found a presenter on the floor with a booth who also gave a shit. So it's not,

People do love tech. Yeah. If you have come here and you hate what you're offering, we're going to notice. And we're going to talk about it. And we will talk about it. But we love tech. Yeah. If you're selling it, you need to love tech. Yeah. And I think it's easy to give in to the kind of cynicism at the moment because the people running the tech industry – I know, Ed, you feel this strongly –

It's like the people running it don't give a shit about tech. Mark Zuckerberg doesn't give a shit about Facebook. He's talking about how, oh, yeah, we need more masculine energy. Masculine? Masculine. I'm sure he was pushing masculine down their throats as well. And it's just sad because it's this kind of repressed...

toxic masculinity where it's about dominance even though his platform only dominates by being a monopoly of sorts it's just very sad and i realize we've been very male weighted this week it's like it's been positive masculine experience we've had good friendships here but also just people of all genders who have been here have had a great time because it's been about hanging out and actually talking about the stuff that intrigued or made you happy or made you very angry of course

And I think that it's cool that we got to encapsulate that. It feels like collecting years of CES into one. Yeah. So traditionally, everyone who's come to get a drink, I've always asked them, tell me the thing that scared you. Tell me the thing that you thought was dangerous to see if I needed to call the fire marshal or more likely in the case of this show, drop a line to the FDA. But the thing that I had never asked, and I'm glad you were asking everyone on this

the podcast is what made you excited, what made you happy. Because that's something I never did, and I've realized that may have been not great energy I was bringing to the bar in past years. I think within the, and as the real Ed heads know, the real Zitron Law people, they'll know, but the previous form of this was a PR firm thing. Me, my guy Kevin, we'd come out here, we'd have journos over, wouldn't do any pitching, but we'd have them in and have a good laugh. With this...

It felt like we were actually building something cool. And so, Ed, you had fun, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Did you actually find any... And it's okay if the answer is no. Did you actually find anything that gave you any hope? No. And that's fine. No, but talk to me about that, because there's nothing wrong with that answer. It's just, what was it? I mean, I think, you know, I am not the market demographic for a lot of these things. I have little to no interest in...

Filling my home with Gizmo's gadgets or toys. I'm not really also as a result of that in need of souping up the grid in my home, the appliances. Right. Adding smart layers to them. I'm not too interested in healthcare management. I mean, most of the things that I like and I'm interested in are things that I can make myself hands-on, don't really require...

of smart or algorithmic enabled devices. Wi-Fi, various apps and such. You know...

And so on that front, I'm not too interested. And then there's the other, you know, there's the part of me that though is very interested in tech just to like see what is being developed and offered to other people, especially people who are in need of things, people who are disabled, people who are makers, people who are inventors, right? And are just interested in creating something and offering it to other people. Cool. But, you know, I think CES is also not the place for me to find hope in that because of how much

of the tech either simply does not exist or is in a prototype form that as I talk to more people is synonymous with like perpetual delay. And at times not even like a, not even a release or release in a pared back form. So I feel like it's more so I come here, I didn't come here looking for magic. I am surprised by how much

just did not connect with me. Right. Because you weren't coming in here just as a pure hater. When we talked about this originally, you were like, I don't know. Yeah, I literally didn't know. You know, I was like, okay, is the CS, how much of CS is like, here's an actual product I can pick up, try, and how much of it is like we are selling so that another business can notice and buy it from us?

Or an investor can back us. And so learning that the division and the amount in which many of these tech products fell or the category in which many of these tech products fell was interesting. I mean, the best part was for me just like conversations with people as a chance to both reflect on what we were being seen

seen or what we're being shown and what we saw on the floor and what had been seen by other writers. And also just talking about the tech industry and media coverage in general. I feel like that was the part that actually, I think, analogously gave hope in the sense that it's affirming to hear other people, even if they are excited about things that I'm not, talk about the limitations of, the shortcomings of something that

When I was presented it as an object, it felt like something that was like a staple in the industry that everyone loved and came to and understood had its own integral role that was not to be...

True dice too much? Yeah. You know? It's a weird show as well, I imagine, for the first time, because it's like, when you don't know this format, this place is kind of insane. Just to map this out for the listeners. So we're in the Venetian, so we have one of the best places to be as far as the regular show goes, in that we have a hotel, the Venetian,

that has the connected Sands Expo Center, which is now called the Venetian Expo Center. This is where a chunk of it is. Then to get to the LVCC, you have to either take an Uber and then walk a mile. When your Uber guy goes, I'm not going to wait, man. It's going to be two hours. You then walk probably a quarter of a mile

to a door, and at that point you realize it's the wrong door. So you have to then walk another probably 0.1 miles to the badge person who will then tell you now that you've made it to the other badge person inside. So at this point you spent like an hour and a half getting there. And now you can get your badge from other places. So perhaps you arrived with it. Well, now you can walk through like a...

What's probably about three miles of walking a day, just minimum in the main hall? No, it's three miles of walking just to get to it. And then the hall. Yeah, okay. But I mean like just spending the day in there. And so after this...

You just see like either the largest television or the biggest lie, depending on the room you're in. And it's, I imagine it's kind of strange for me. I think I'm just kind of numb to it at this point. Do you remember the advice I gave you? You asked, you've been, you've done this before, Phil. What should I go look for? And I haven't done this in a while. But just when you see the hall of TVs, unless you really want that,

know that you've, this is nothing but that. Keep moving through to look for something else because a giant TV is a giant TV. And we've talked about a human who exists only to wave behind the transparent one. But the, take us back to ergonomics. The, the,

The thing that Robert Evans said to me at the bar for the best thing about the TV pavilion was not the TVs, but the incredibly cushy floor so that he could actually rest his feet for a moment. The deep pile carpet is pretty sweet. But just to give you an idea, if you have never done this before... A good chunk of it feels like being in a Best Buy on Black Friday. Yes, that's actually it. But no one's shopping, they're just loitering. Yes, yeah, yeah. And...

It's so weird as well, but I wouldn't have done it with anyone else. It's just interesting to see CES bounce off of someone, not because they're not trying, but because they've realized the edifice of CES, which is, hey, check out all the stuff we won't make. I would have driven a Tesla off the bridge if I had to come here myself with a...

With like an outlet. Yeah, you know. Like a real person. Oh my God. Especially because the mode of engagement would be much more different. I mean, here it felt like I got the chance to kind of drift around and each day I felt like I was focusing on a different part of the floor. Right. Based on what I did or didn't get to do, based on conversations I had with people, they're like, oh, I actually was really interested in this. Yeah.

And I think coming in with less preparation than an outlet might have had for me in the sense that like wasn't honed in and hunting for and prepping over how to think about and how to engage with like the FinTech. It was more like I stumbled upon them. Oh, what a pleasant surprise. Oh, they're talking about AI agents. Let's talk for a little bit, you know. Right.

It was, it felt like I got to experience it both as like maybe a consumer might, but

And also a bit as my capacity as someone who's wondering, okay, if the presentation of this is for the consumer, then if you're walking around in it and you happen to know a bit about the industry or various products, what would you think about it? If your intention is not just to report it back to consumers so that they can get a repackaged form of what's being presented here. This is one of the things I was really excited to hear yesterday from Sherilyn. Yeah.

about the process that Engadget does for how they prepare to go to the show, which it's fun with clean eyes to have none of that, just to encounter it face first, smack into the wall. But that process from Engadget, I had no idea and I'm happy I heard it. And I'm happy that the listeners heard it as well because going back to the Blackpill thing, it's very easy to get

cynical about the tech media. And I have been extremely critical of the tech media. But then you look at the people we brought in, we had Carl Chenard from Las Vegas Sun, for example, such a delightful surprise, that guy, young guy, but also getting into the labor stuff, the fact you've got someone who writes about tech, because they're a reporter, not because they're a tech reporter. But then you look at Engadget, a place that people might say, oh, it's just a gadget blog, and they actually really tried. And it's interesting to see that

There's so much personality in the tech media that just we had no – I really – I knew some of these people, but I didn't know how bad. They cook. A lot of them are like – we didn't have one bum guest. Also, in terms of the eight years we've done this, from my point of view, in terms of providing respite to journalists – indeed, it's catching head – journalists getting respite in the suite for a chance to breathe and sit –

For the first time in all these years, I had people once saying, I'm so happy to be back. I'm so happy to get another drink for you. The five years of COVID, I've missed you. And also, Gare just like,

And Gare, I just want to say again, Gare Davis is just insanely talented. I am so happy we got them on so many episodes. I saw, Gare is fairly high energy. You might have noticed from some podcast. I adore it. But I watched Gare just sort of take a breath and slump into a chair for a moment. They could be off. And I think that... It was nice. And I think of...

Bear Offline is such a bizarre podcast. Look at your Matt Asowski. It's like, yeah, it is. My producer, wonderful Matt Asowski. It's funny. This show started off as a joke and then it became something. No, it started off as a thing where I was talking about how pissed off I was about wet brothers like the Winklevosses or the Rot Economy and everything. Right. The Blowjob Brothers. Well, well, well, if it isn't the Winklevoss Brothers. But it's...

It's interesting how it's grown, because I've been thinking about CES quite literally for a year. So Robert, Gare, and I were sitting around at Spago, where we're actually going tonight. Take my boys out. You've got to treat the boys. That's the one thing. I'm lucky enough to have this podcast. I've been treating them, treating everyone. It's lovely. But in all seriousness, I was sitting there with Robert and Gare and just kind of slightly worried, both about the podcast. But I got that done. We don't need to belabor that. I really should stop repeating that, in fact. Anyway...

I sat there and I'm like, "Shit, how am I gonna do CES?" And I spent the year, and Phil and I have talked about this many, many, many times, and the thing that I think that we needed to do, which I think we mostly did, was not just be like, "Hey, here's all the shit that you see at the show, ya hogs," but also try and capture, even though people kind of hate it, try and capture the fact that there is a week-long thing in the tech media where everyone comes to one place, kind of parties together,

Then does journalism ostensible? But like, there's this whole thing that's been virtually uncovered. It's just, this is like Aspen for tech media, except you really, I don't think as many dark thoughts when I think of it. And it's, and I think we successfully got that. And listeners, I would love to hear your feedback. You've been quite generous with it so far. 99% of it loved it. 1% calmed down.

But I think we have successfully captured, Phil, what we have always captured here, which is, hey, here's just one fucking place you can sit down and try and process the things you have been hit with over the last week. Oh, yeah. Also, I just remembered it as I took a sip of black blood and energy courses through me again.

I want to take a moment to give special thanks to someone who almost never gets thanked that has made sure that this suite worked. Mothers. Give it up. Thanks, Mom. But also, 28th floor housekeeping staff at the Venetian. Big up. Particularly, Alice.

Alice, you have made sure that I've been able to keep the filthy pigsty that I keep making of the place and people walking through look nice. I could not have done this without you, Alice. Thank you, Alice. Is that who wrote the note? No, that was – okay, no. There was a note in here that said, they're all dead, Ed, run. And that would be Robert Evans, the –

Like the trickster god that I work for. Mr. Mixie Piddletts. Mr. World. Actually, yes, Robert is Mr. World. Exactly. Like a Crispin Glover figure that shows up to be like, podcast time. No, Alice is the one who gave me the extra ice bucket. Alice gave the welcome note to this room. Okay, because I noticed it.

It said Alice underneath that. That's because I wrote her name down to make sure I did not forget. Right. Please don't kill me, Alice. But in all seriousness, no, the Venetian's been lovely. It's been so weird as well, just like standing up this thing. I don't know if everyone listening to this has looked at my Instagram or my blue sky. I hope you have because I need attention. But also, I want you to know how great this setup has been. We've had this recessed area in the Venetian.

And honestly, it's just been extremely heartening for two reasons. One, having some solidarity in this fucking tech media. It has been such a rough year for so many people. 2024 was an insane year. But also, right now, the tech media feels, and I say this having done a thing where I yelled at them, but...

Lord Almighty, I've never seen less solidarity, but I kind of saw it this week. Everyone seemed happy to see each other. When they got on the mic together, they were generous with their time. They were excited to vibe off of each other. There was no like vacuous...

competitiveness or anything like that. Everyone was so giving with their time, not just with me, but with each other. They were shooting the shit and they were happy to see each other. It was great. And I think that this is a time where as things get a bit rough with big tech and within society, this is the time to pull together. And I'm happy that whatever this week has been, which is insane, by the way, just the entire idea. I hope that that has created that. And I hope that you, the listener, have heard that. And I was about to say appreciated that. I don't mean it like that.

I mean, I hope you've got that vibe.

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I'm Jason Alexander and I'm Peter Tilden and together on the Really No Really podcast our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does

Does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really Not Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That?

It's the opening? Really, no really. Yeah, really. No really. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really, No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So you've talked about the vibe, people together here talking and happy. So effectively, I'm with the bar. I'm running the green room for what you're getting to hear over here. Right.

When people leave here and the next crew rotates in for your listening pleasure, the old crew does not immediately bolt for the door. They actually sat down with each other and enjoyed each other's time. I did notice that. And it's cool when we like cycle out people like Ed, like you go back to have a chat with them. And I realized like you've been like,

somewhat unimpressed with the actual stuff, but you seem to have had a good time with everyone. Oh yeah, I had a great time with everyone. I had a great time with the people. Yeah, and I think that it's about the people, but it kind of is. I'm here to see the doodads, the gizmos, the apps, but no, it's to pull together the tech media, to have a conversation with people and try and actually talk about what happens here. Because as I was kind of getting earlier,

This place, like Vegas is a fascinating place in and of itself. So is CES, even if the stuff is kind of the same as last year. Even capturing that mood is kind of important. And bringing you fresh was, I'm really happy. Yeah, and I'm really happy you brought me in. I mean, this was definitely an imprint experience. It's definitely left its mark on me. Would you have even dreamed coming into the, getting on a plane, coming to Las Vegas, and

That you were about to meet the crit readers for two of your favorite authors. No. Oh, my God. What a crazy... Yeah, that was such a wild turn of events. For listeners who don't know, they are... Father Gabriel and Phil are crit readers for Christopher Ruccasino and Charles Strauss, who are two of my...

Favorite writers right now, Charles Stroust does sci-fi. Christopher Ruccasino is doing like a science fantasy series, Sun Eater, which you should definitely check out if you are interested in Romans in space. Yes, space Romans.

in the deconstruction of Dune and Star Wars and also without the turgid prose of Foundation, the Foundation series. These are the happy surprises that happen when you just sit down and start talking. There was a great moment where Robert Evans and Father Gabriel and Edom Grasso Jr. were sitting around for like 20 straight minutes and they were having the, they were like, oh, but Hegel, and they were naming all these philosophers. And I was just sitting there.

And I think I understand what Babu, my cat, feels like when I'm talking to him. Because I was just looking at it, just like, wow, I know these names. But they're connecting them in ways that clearly involve knowledge. And then after 20 minutes, I just said, fuck, is this what it's like? What's it like being smart? Anyway, that's the experience I bring to the sweep.

But honestly, it's been kind of fun watching everyone just talk. I want this to be... And I want you, the listener, to be pulled into this and to kind of feel this. Because putting aside the very obvious and well-documented side of CES, of the it's full of shit that never goes anywhere and everyone's kind of annoyed that tech is... It's full of people. It is also full of people. Sorry, that's...

Sorry. No, no, no. I'm... Ed is well-drank and well-fed, as we all are. But also, we have had five straight days of just, like, our brains being punished. No, really, I think this might be massage recovery. All the tension that's been holding me together, they removed it, and...

I'm feeling real good. I've been rubbing my stomach for five hours. I was rubbing it for five hours before that. I thought you were just accumulating wealth. I ran to this booth. I mean, I ran to the suite last night because I was going to... No, no. There was a crisis and it had to be addressed. Moving on. We're

We're talking about how nice the solidarity here is. No, no, no, no. There was solidarity there. No. I will not elaborate. I was just about to do a whole thing about how like we've had a bunch of guys in a suite. And I think for the most part, we've done good positive masculinity. Right. Without talking too much about our bowel movements. No one got in his way. And then the beginning with the... I'm being open and vulnerable.

I'm glad that we got Reuters' quotation on the horny check. But also, I'm tired of people on the Reddit asking to, well, for one. But I think for the most part, I hope we've shown a bunch of guys hanging out don't have to be nasty assholes. We've not been tearing each other down. And I want this... Because this industry is very male-dominated. And something we do want to do better next year is I want more women in this, more diverse voices. This thing... And I know some of you brought this up, and it's a fair criticism. We had...

We really only had like three women on there and it's not enough. And so we're going to do a much better job next year. And we've already like making plans for this 2026, uh,

We are going to improve this show on that level, but also I think we are going to try and in as much as we can sync up on coverage with these outlets and actually bring them in. Because the big thing is, is like better offline is pretty big now. I can't even say how big, because I am told not to, but it's big. We have a real audience now. And the thing I think we can do with the show is first of all, show you the wonderful listener what's going on in the tech industry and what's going on in the tech industry is not just the

the thing you see on the page. Even people I've criticized, those people behind the byline are held by these restraints of editorial bullshit. But on top of that, there's only so much you can do if you're like writing about laptop. How much will you know about that person? So I want this show to be...

that now. And when it comes to things like CES, I don't know where else I go. I'm not going to South by. No. Yeah, you will. You got to do it. You got to see how crypto is taking it over. I don't want to. That sounds awful. It is awful. My friends aren't there. It's the people who go. Molly White will go, maybe. Molly White's great, but I would rather just like fly to Boston or whatever. Yeah. But nevertheless...

This show is important to the tech industry. Yeah, it's true. And yet it's completely uncovered what actually happens here. There's a lot of stuff about this robot does this and this vacuum has an arm now, but not the actual vibe, not the actual feel. And it's interesting to finally capture that and put it in a bottle. Yeah, no, that's interesting because when I was trying to look over coverage to get a sense of what to expect, it really was just people talking about past products.

and not like actual morale, energy, enthusiasm, or lack thereof. Impact to larger society and programs. As well. But even then, the tech industry and the tech media, it's full of these weird, wonderful people we've had all week. And I feel like, and if you, the listener, disagree with this, please let me know. But it feels like people have responded really well to just,

Hearing the people behind these bylines and actually talking about this. And that those people got a chance to expand on what they saw and what they felt in a way that

maybe they've been constrained from doing for a while. And not even for malevolent reasons. It's just that if you are writing a gadget blog and you write about gadgets, there's not really much space for editorializing. Someone we didn't get on was Michael Fisher, one of my favorite YouTubers. And he has done a really good job of expanding his YouTube. I sound 100 years old. He's got one of those YouTube channels with the videos now. One of the light boxes captures his form. Yeah.

But he was here, sadly missed him. Going to see him for dinner, I think, next week. Nevertheless, he has done a really good thing of explaining kind of the ephemera around his travel, how travel weighs upon him, how there are emotional contexts to places he goes, the societal parts. He did a great thing where he was in India talking about the smog, for example. You can do more with this medium.

And I think that there's so much more interesting things that we could do even with this show. Cause let's be honest, you've got, I don't actually know how many actual reporters are here because the list includes every single possible person who could ever mention words. But,

But I would say there's at least 100 members of the tech media here, like dyed-in-the-wool actual tech media. And the fact is, there isn't a damn place other than like Twitter and Blue Sky where you're actually able to get to know these people. I want Better Off Line to be that on some level. It's not just going to be that. It's not just the kind of mixer stuff. But I think it's a helpful function of what the show could be in the future. So something I've – well, I don't go to the floor because I'm bartending –

Something that I do get to do at DEF CON and at Photonics West is watching for...

entities that are actually attending the show as well. I mean, it's a tradition at DEF CON to play the game Spot the Narc, which is if you can find the member of a given government agency and they've started playing with it and actually having official booths and saying, can you guess which agency I work for? And if you do, they'll give you a challenge coin or a pin. But conversely, the DEF CON people will give them a shirt for the narc to wear. But...

Our governmental agencies, our regulators are actually, just like me, interested in what's coming that I should be prepared for. Right. I like finding them and seeing what are you looking for. Right. If I could find someone...

willing to represent their agency that want to talk to us. No feds inside here, though. We don't let them in here. I mean, I will not allow. We're not having the government agencies in here. I will not. You can talk to them outside, but if you remember of the feds, please don't come to my show. I don't think that's going to be fun. No.

No, no. If they turn up, I'm going to have a word with them and say, please don't hurt me. Please don't kick me out. Well, actually, the hard part is the ones that are actually doing the things that are of interest, they can't talk. They're constrained by a public affairs office. Perfect. Wonderful. Then they have no reason to be here then. But their interest is actually the public interest. You should listen to the show then. They do. Well –

And are generally happy. Okay, I hope they are. At least the ones I talk to. I really don't want to get put in the gulag. But putting aside the FBI's clearly active interest in me, that's a great phrase to say out loud. I do want this place to be, without the feds...

An actual place where journalists come. And I know that there are some people have reached out to me and they've said they weren't able to make it and such. We're going to move stuff around next year. I want to make sure there's more room for people. And Mr. Ongueso Jr. sounds like he will come back. Yeah, I would love to. And Mr. Roth will as well. If you love me, I will be here. And Phil is stuck with me.

But I think the thing I want to do differently as well is I want to really plan out the groups because, and I must be honest to the listeners, how much of this came together in real time.

But also, I think he'll indulge me because what an insane thing I did here. Like, this has been very crazy. And it worked. I cannot believe how well it worked, and it's thanks to you guys. And of course, our producer, Matt Asowski, who built this whole setup. But it's interesting because something like this could actually be useful for people to understand the mechanisms of power within tech. Because I want people to realize how much of it's bullshit, sure, but how you've got journalists coming out here who are actually trying to...

find a way to cover it within the boundaries of journalism, which can be quite difficult because most people can't come on here and say, yeah, most of the shit I saw was bullshit and that was broken and this is shit. Not necessarily because of the byline, but also how do you write that story? How do you actually put that together? How do you actually say CES was full of dog shit? And please read the rest of my words after this. And I'll tell you the way you don't do that.

Being sponsored by Delta Airlines. I will voice my displeasure about Mr. Nillay. Mr. Nillay Patel. He is... Dirty, dirty man. Some management questions aside, Nillay had a chance to do something interesting at CES and somehow I did the more interesting thing, which is disappointing. But also, if you're being interviewed by the CEO of Delta Vacations...

What are you doing? Like, oh, sorry, you're interviewing them. To what end? To what point? And I feel like the people covering this show have got such a shit deal, but the ones with the largest microphones, other than my own, don't seem to be...

It's just frustrating because people at The Verge, and I'm not attacking the writers there because Victoria's Song was amazing on this. It feels like the people covering this show, some of them have potentially given up a little. The Verge should not have a live show where the summation of it starts with a fucking interview with the CEO of the worst part of the Delta experience. The mini CEO. And I saw people covering the Delta stuff just blandly and it's like...

Did you check out the interview? What was the interview itself? I have not listened to the Verge cast in some time. I'm not sure how you can cover that excitedly. I think that – no, actually, let me check my notes. I did listen. It was – let's see. It was James Ticlette, the CEO of Lockheed Martin, who said that –

I love The Verge. It's my favorite publication. And then they were surprisingly joined by Hanwha chairman Sungyoon Kim, who said how The Verge is the best place to find out about bombs. That is all a joke. I apologize. But nevertheless, it's... I thought you were serious. I've had that written down for a week. It's just frustrating because it's like, Nilay Patel, he can fucking do a better job. And honestly, there could be better things done at CES. The thing we've proven in the last week, not trying to pat myself on the back or anything, but...

I don't even need to say that. The people who've come on have been really interesting. And I think there's more that we can do. I don't even know whether to call myself part of the tech media or on a fucking PR firm during the day. I write a newsletter where I regularly make typos that really shouldn't be there. I just, I don't know, man. But nevertheless, it's like there is more to be done and there's more to be done in the next year. And I think the way everyone needs to go right now is this move towards the question we've been asking all week.

which is why does this have to exist? Who is it for? Why is, why? And I think, Ed, your frustration with this place is that question is so often not answerable somehow. Yeah, deeply so. I feel like, or it is a constructed individual that's not necessarily real as the tech industry is like so fond of. Yeah, they're solving for an imaginary person. Or that search for an investor. Yeah. They're,

the product is them. I mean, I think, you know, the tech industry has gotten better in the years of constructing the sort or constructing the image that there is the person that wants what they are offering. I mean, I think the most recent example of this that was pretty poignant was the construction of the crypto voter as facilitated by Fairshake and their pretty massive lobbying campaign to

punish any candidate that seemed remotely anti-crypto to resounding success. I think like almost like a 90 plus percent hit rate for winning races where they put up ads against anti-crypto or ostensibly anti-crypto or insufficiently pro-crypto candidates. Yeah, that latter one is the really dirty one. You don't love us enough.

Kiss the boot. The imaginary customer. And the imaginary customer there is this idea of a crypto voter, someone who is motivated by desire to have a safe home for their crypto assets. They want it in a bank that they would typically use. They want their dollars to be more easily transferable between or to these things. They want to have more assets that can be –

you know, that they can trade in their dollars or their tokens for. Right. And I think similarly, sometimes when I see, you know, I think about like, especially the global pavilion for crypto, right. Where it's like, these people are sitting here talking about how, you know, for your brand, one way to increase its authenticity is objectified. The company said is to offer a limited edition goods and,

that will add an air of rarity to your brand. Like a non-fungible token of some sort? Yeah, yeah. They're all tokens, right? And, you know, these...

the idea here is when also when you listen to them closely they're not saying like they're not actually saying there's any use value what they're saying is that we realized we have a use case for justifying our service which is that you can make it more your thing more exclusive in partnership with us if you cut us a fee and you generate a useless token right um I

I feel like there is a lot of this where, you know, solution in search of a problem or a business in search of an opportunity to cut, to extract a fee. Rather than solving a need. Someone once asked me if I was willing to do limited NFT work.

coded release labels on Black Blood of the Earth bottles so they could have, someone could have their very own NFT run of Black Blood and that would be an email. That would be so funny. I would take such pleasure in watching you enter the blockchain. That was the point. They wanted blockchain coffee. Block Blood of the Earth.

I hate you. So, Ed, slightly different direction. Do you actually like any technology? I don't mean this in like any thing. You seem to enjoy your phone and such. Like, you enjoy connecting with people? Yeah, I mean, I like my phone, computers, screens, everything.

But most things, I'm just like, I'm not really... Trains are cool. Yeah, trains are cool. I mean, if we're talking about, for example, non-digitally mediated, I mean, of course. Yeah. If we're talking about digitally mediated, I really have to be... Because I'm not interested in productivity hacks or saving time. As a regular person. Yeah. For me, it's like...

The things I'm interested in, software and programs, you know, that have helped me. I'm interested sometimes in, you know, I have a friend who I learned coding with, what is it now, like maybe 10 years ago. You can code? Mm-hmm. What in? Well, I don't talk about it because I don't like...

doing it because I don't really care for much. And because the reason I don't talk about it is because it's always fun when I have, when a tech person gets a little mad at me and it's like, why is this guy who doesn't even code? And I'm like, what about me makes you think I can't code? Please tell me. That's cool though. So, you know, especially with the more advanced

the more recent wave of tools of generative tools for coding supplements. I mean, you know, I've kind of been inspired by like writing from like Brian Eno and you have getting more results to try and create like small applications that help us learn other languages. Cause I've been trying to learn Mandarin for a long time. Right. Um,

You know, and so stuff like this is fun and interesting, like little trinkets, little, you know, short desktop apps, or, you know, small little programs that help me in my daily life, but I'm not really interested in, like, some overhaul. It feels like what you're describing is the purest form of technology, which is why do we use the computer to connect with people or connect with ourselves a bit more? To actually truly love what we want to do more, to enhance ourselves more.

Because the reason I'm asking these questions is because there are some fucking idiots, I'm just going to skip to that part, who would just be like, well, Ed's just a hater. And I've got the same thing as an Ed who is hating. Can I say a terrifying nice thing? Let him finish his point and then we'll get to you. Don't worry. I am a hater in that I think that a lot of times...

The greatest haters love. Anyway, please continue. When someone is talking to me or trying to convince me to integrate some algorithm or digital program into my life, what they're usually talking about is a way to offload some of the cognitive burden and not actually cut through a stupid task or to not come up. For example, me and my friend, we've

Evgeny Morozov is an inspiration for this. What he talks about in one of his essays about how he uses generative tools to try to create a group of language programs so that he'll try to talk in another language or answer questions in another language and then based on the weaknesses, it will generate...

kind of questions and exams and stories that will test what he has shown a deficiency in. You know, this is like elements of how one structure is a sentence maybe. Yeah. Grammar sentence structure, ambiguities of descriptive language. I mean, and this is stuff that, uh, interest us more than, uh,

the way in which we typically have been trying to learn the languages, especially, you know, cause I'm doing, I'm trying to do Swahili as well. So Swahili and Mandarin and, and he's doing Spanish and Pashtun. And so it's like, there are a lot of the apps that off that are offered in a lot of the programs, a lot of the methods are, we simply either don't have the time to do them or the, the,

the gamification that's presented is bullshit. Well, that Duolingo style. You know? So I'm, if you, if you can figure out a way to do it, that is more closer resembling how a human to human interaction, um,

does it without trying to convince me that I need to offload onto some sort of platform, enter some ecosystem. Sure, I'm interested, right? But most of the time, you have to make the case, and it has to be a convincing case for why an algorithm needs to be introduced into something that I'm interested in using. And I think that most of the times, if you actually spend time talking with the people about it and interrogating it, it doesn't pass the sniff test. Right.

This is where solving the language problem and the human interaction level, this is where I have to say the terrifying words, I love Uber. Because it did one thing that they are not proud of, that they do not tout as a thing they can do. In general, Uber is...

to regulated ride environments, it destroys taxi networks. Never mind adoption of technology that taxis should have done to improve service. Uber obliterates that good ecosystem. However, in unregulated markets or ones that are highly corrupt and barter-based where taxis

Such as? Such as Ukraine and most of Eastern Europe. Now, your experience with this was pre-war, though, right? It was pre-war. In Kyiv, I do not speak Ukrainian, although my feeble language skills have... I speak English. I have technical Spanish. I can have commerce Spanish, but don't ask me to talk about poetry. So that's if you make two Spanishes. I was doing a callback to another. Anyway, continue.

But when I got done playing in the Great Patriotic War Museum and it was snowing, the first snow of the season in Kiev, and I did not feel like doing my normal thing of walking all the way across the city just to enjoy and absorb the city. And on international data rates, I downloaded Uber on the principle of I just want to get back to my hotel. Uber...

Yeah, they're negotiating for you. It isn't great. Mm-hmm.

That is a thing they never tout, they are not proud of, but they do everywhere in the world. And with time, I did that in 2016, their language translation on either end of their app has only gotten better. But the problem is that you're completely right, except for the fact that Uber...

Also had a bigger opportunity that it didn't do, which was if they'd have grown sustainably and set real labor rates and demanded benefits, Uber could probably be a $15 trillion company. Oh, you mean actually be profitable? No, I mean beyond that. If Uber had slowly grown and done it,

more than minimum wage and use their scale to actually commit themselves to getting real benefits rates for employees and grown like that. They could have actually grown to be probably the largest employer in the world and actually given people benefits. So they chose the other. And what sucks is that the reason they did what you just described, which is genuinely good,

is so that they could find new people that spoke other languages to extract from. That was the first time I called an Uber of my own. I remember. And it sucks that they didn't do it to make sure that you could do the thing you did. It was just like we had to get that extraction. I know. It fucking sucks. It makes me mad with the simultaneous, you made a human experience I couldn't have otherwise had. But is this not CES? Yes.

A lot of ideas that are made up that could be for ostensibly good reasons, but are really done for the investor, for the theoretical customer. Ultimately, everything we're describing that's good here is about

actually connecting the smart cane as glib as I might have been about it people genuinely will find good in that. I'm legit excited about that. Medical devices these are all good and I mean we've also you know we've talked before about how there are lots of algorithmic things that have nothing to do with the consumer that are helpful you know that are on

on the back end of helping test things or discover or do trials for various compounds, right? As long as you don't put, I'm very skeptical of the generative tools that are being deployed for this, but, you know, more traditionally when they're done for this is, you know, it's something that's interesting. I mean, there's a host of applications that if we wanted to sit down, we could talk about, but, you know, for me, the thing I don't hate, I mean,

I mean, the thing I don't like and the stuff I just like kind of informs my antipathy towards it, my Luddism is like, you know, usually when we have a venture capital firm, a private firm, a well-capitalized individual, a hedge fund, whatever, pushing a certain type of technology innovation...

It's because they're interested in prioritizing the startup form, which itself already closes a lot of doors because you have to adopt a certain product. You have to adopt a certain value structure so that you can pay the software tax or the cloud tax. You have to figure out a way that you're going to...

organized labor so that you can have contractors and employees and all of these limitations, there's more energy being spent on evading all the barriers to maximizing potential valuation and profitability in market share instead of the actual technological innovation itself.

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So we are at the end, I'm afraid. And yesterday you got my kind of teary goodbye to everyone. And to give you an idea of what the room was like yesterday, it was full of people and everyone was yelling and it was very fun. That's where you got the yes chef from. We have had an insanely cool crew of people, of course, led by Matt Salsky, our producer here. But we've...

really gone through a lot of the tech media and the thing i'll say for next year is i'm gonna have more of them we had 20 guests on this damn show including the people in front of me as well i have more liquor to serve indeed he does and it's fun it's also it seems like the listeners and i want this to be an active conversation with you you're on the reddit you email me i loved it please get in touch on blue sky you get in touch on threads i'm i'm not listening

Like I just want to be clear like I look down at you. Instagram DMs? Absolutely. Threads? Not so much. Why? I'm a hypocrite. Anyway, this has been an amazing show and I want to hear from you. But next year we're going to be a bit more structured but also it's probably going to be the same format. We're going to have more diverse voices and we're also going to get into more definitive subjects. I think the one thing I could have done – there are a few things I could have done better –

One thing I could have is subject matter and having subject matter experts. We have people like Max Cherney and Devinder Hardwa who like really knew their chips, for example. We can wrangle that coverage far more specifically. But also, there was something fun about having the slop of the week just kind of wash over us because I wanted all of you listening to kind of get an idea of how obtuse a conference is. And I know some of you go to weird conferences and such, and thus you have this experience. But...

Phil, thank you for being our bartender. Thank you for serving everyone. I really treasure your hard work and let's do nine next year. Oh, yeah. Something I'm very proud of that I started trying to kick in the sixth and seventh time we did this was making sure I had non-alcoholic options available for people. I had more than ever available this year and I

I'm glad I got to give it to people who want it. Because this is not a place where you have to drink. Because most people who don't drink can't drink. Yeah. They usually feel very assed out when they go to events at conventions like this.

And I want people to feel welcome. And you are here. Like, I don't care if you don't have any substances. Maybe you don't even have food. You don't even need gas station mushrooms. Thank you, Robert, for the gas station mushrooms you brought in. I didn't take them because I don't just eat food off the floor. Or gas stations.

I've got to introduce you to some of my friends. Drug freegans, we would call some of them. Okay, that's... That's a new term. That is a series of words that I will be unpacking for some time. I'll elaborate more off the pot. It's been a pleasure. It's been real fun. And this is kind of the...

I was about to say the end of the road, but it's quite the opposite. The beginning of something cool, because Phil and I have been doing this for so long and some of you have got in touch and like asked, it's, this was a suite where we brought our friends in from the tech media and now it's turned into something really cool that I look to grow and turn into something weird and fun every year. If you're a member of the tech media who was not on here listening to this, get in touch.

If you're in New York, for example, we will be doing what you heard this week very regularly. Every other week, I would say, get in touch. Maybe it's not the next episode, but I want a chunk of the tech media on there. The tech media is full of such insanely fun and weird and wonderful voices. Tons of people so good on the mic that you wouldn't know. I want to help with that. I want this to be something.

And if you're coming to the Bay Area for some reason, I'm always happy to give the Phil Broughton tour where I point at Manhattan Project things that aren't there anymore. Oh, you're on the Bay.

Yeah. Wow, we waited how many hours and we just didn't reveal that? Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, I live in the Bay Area and I work at a university that is somewhere in the Bay Area. I'll be there 28th to 31st. Also, if you're in the Bay Area 28th to 31st, you should come to my co-host, Jason Sadowski's book launch at City Lights. Ooh.

Jason Sadowski, of course, the inventor of the Habsburg AI term. Yes. Got the heir apparent of the Habsburg Empire to yell at him and say, this is a stereotype. Man, I am so jealous of him that that happened.

I am so upset that I've not had like a... Hartsburg AI and Potemkin AI, you know. Very nice. Those are my two favorite kinds. Right. But also, Edwin Guaizo Jr., thank you so much. You have battled through this week for your first CES in... I would say the conditions have been chaotic. But I made it. He made it. My stomach made it. He cooked. But also...

You're going to see in the next year exactly how much Mr. Ongueso Jr. does. He is incredible, and we've been so lucky to have him. Thank you. I got to meet one of my favorite writers. Thank you. I've been enjoying your work for so long. I really appreciate that. So it's been awesome. And I will say this, as I say every time when I meet you, man, I also got to have drinks with one of my favorite writers. Thank you so much for your time. It's been fantastic.

A genuine pleasure, I imagine, for the listeners, but selfishly for me. Me too. I wouldn't have done it with anyone else, guys. Hell yeah.

And this is the thing, like, this is being very guy-weighted, but also I want all the fellas to listen to remember that you can love your male friends and talk about how fucking rocking they are and how much they've supported you all week. You don't have to be so fucking self-conscious, you fucking cowards. Compliment each other, man. Also, Ed is like the best-dressed man I've ever fucking seen. Every fucking day. I'm just swearing too much. Ed looks just amazing. I look pretty good, too. Don't say it. I'm jealous of his suit. Yeah, he actually has, like, the most wonderful...

I wish I was this cool, but nevertheless, we've had an incredible crew of people. I want to start by thanking Jared Newman, the freelancer, Henry Casey of CNN and Underscored, Ed Niedermeyer of the Autonomcast, Father Gabriel Mosher, of course, of The Church.

Jesse Ferrara and Michael Hale of Your Kickstarter Sucks. Tom McKay of IT Brew. Of course, David Roth of Defector. Matt Binder of Mashable. Max Cherney of Reuters. Gare Davis and Robert Evans. Of course, if it could happen here. Phil Broughton, who's sitting across from me of what I've just written as miscellaneous. Devendra Hardewa, Carissa Bell, and of course, Sherlyn Lowe of Engadget. Victoria Song of The Verge. Carl Chouinard of The Las Vegas Sun. And of course, Matt Asowski of...

Our incredible goddamn producer. You have been an absolute legend this entire time. We couldn't have done it without you, but we also could not have done it without iHeartRadio's Sophie Lichterman. And of course, Ian Johnson, who has been... He is literally dealing with the wildfires at the moment, and he is...

We didn't hear from him. It's like, oh crap, shit. And actually, I want to do a shout out to Miles Gray of the Daily Zeitgeist, the iHeartRadio show. He literally lost everything. I'll be dropping a link in there. Don't feel obligated to, like many people going through many things, but if you can donate, please do. And thank you for me. This has been a very personal...

podcast a little too personal and I have no idea if it's good or bad I really don't know you seem to be happy but nevertheless this is you've all kind of witnessed my own personal journey with technology and technology has been part of my life since I was 10 I think

And you've all been wonderful. And I think you like this. And I like doing this. I love doing this. We will be back in a year. I'll get to that in a second. We'll also be back next week. We're going to have Better Offline Radio in New York. I get on a plane to New York on Sunday. It's going to be a complete nightmare. No, exciting. It's an adventure. It is. And I just love cooking. I could probably do another hour of podcasting. But you're thinking, please, please, no more. No more. We've had too much. But in all seriousness, we're going to be back immediately.

immediately with Paris Martineau and of course Jeff Jarvis of TWiT and their various associations. But we are going to be back in a year. And I've learned so many ways to do this, but the biggest lesson I've learned, and that's right, it's friendship, is that everyone came together to support this show. Every single goddamn person who walked into this suite walked in here intent on actually discussing what had happened. And everyone was so fucking wonderful.

And I think now, of all times, it's really easy to be kind of cynical and definitely pessimistic about the tech industry and say that there's nothing to redeem it, really, and everything is growth at all costs. But I think that's reductive. I think it's something where you...

can look at the most powerful people and the things being talked about and lose the magic, which is as fucked up as the algorithms are making things, as detached as we might be from whatever social networks, this week has proven at the very least that there are human beings that truly love the computer and love the things that they can do with it and the people it connects with. I hope I've given you something in this week

And that's proof of solidarity with your fellow human being. And seeing that within this extremely boring, arduous show at times where most people are lying to you or thinking about ways they could put you in a position to lie to you more egregiously,

There are people coming in here who are slightly excited or very excited about a smaller laptop because they're able to use the computer in a different place. So they're able to do more with their lives. And as Ed said, the algorithms he could potentially use for more accurate linguistics. He could learn more about a language. There are many wonderful things that technology can do. And I've been quite emotional, and I think you like it, and I fucking love it. But I'm emotional because I'm surrounded by people who really give a shit. Emotional because...

Every single person that's come through this door, the people running it, but even the people visiting have shown that there's not a single half-arser in them. There's not a person that I've spoken to who has not deeply and meaningfully cared about something in technology. And there's nothing wrong with you if you truly love what technology has done for you. Nothing about this podcast is about trying to fracture you from the things that you love about it. If you're pissed off, I'm with you about the way it's being done.

But what I hope I've shown you in the last week is that there are people that care as much as you do, if not more, people that love it as much as you do, and people who share your frustration with the way things have gone. We will be back next week, and we will be back in 2026 for the Consumer Electronics Show. If you listen this long, I do love you all, and I'm so grateful for you listening to Better Offline.

Thank you for listening to Better Offline. The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song is Matt Osowski. You can check out more of his music and audio projects at mattosowski.com. M-A-T-T-O-S-O-W-S-K-I dot com.

You can email me at ez at betteroffline.com or visit betteroffline.com to find more podcast links and, of course, my newsletter. I also really recommend you go to chat.whereisyoured.at to visit the Discord and go to r slash betteroffline to check out our Reddit. Thank you so much for listening. Better Offline is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Do you want to see into the future? Do you want to understand an invisible force that's shaping your life? Do you want to experience the frontiers of what makes us human? On Tech Stuff, we travel from the mines of Congo to the surface of Mars, from conversations with Nobel Prize winners to the depths of TikTok, to ask burning questions about technology, from

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I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallyknowreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really Know Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.