Data Vampires with Paris Marx
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Hey everyone, this is Jimmy o. Brian from job boy media, I want to quickly ly tell you about my podcast. It's called Jimmy's three things episodes come out every tuesday and for thirty minutes I dive into three stories in majority baseball that I want to talk about, or I do a stat deep dive.

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Caul media. I welcome to Better off line. I'm your host and the single most punished man alive, ezra, on.

Everyone hates me, but the people don't hate the man whose joining me today i've got paris Marks. The host of tech won't save us. The writer of the disconnect blog and the actual host of the brand new series is about, tell us about date of camp irs paris. Thank you for joining me.

Absolutely so fun to beyond show.

So tell me about the new show. I'm excited.

Yeah, it's a you. I think everyone has kind of been paying attention a bit more to like the energy use of data center is egypt al currency in all this kinds stuff and um you know especially what powers generate A A I and know what's been kind of feeling the hype for the past two years. And so in this series, I wanted to go into why we're actually building so many data centers, what is behind these things, how much energy are the using, and on the one hand, like the commercial impulses to do this, but also like the kind of weird ideological reasons that these people want to build these massive AI systems in the first place, relating back to all these, like things about agi and, you know, trying to make computers with human level intelligence and all this kind of stuff where they eventually want to merge their brains with machines. So IT IT goes into like the wide range of all these sorts of things over .

over four episodes. So talk to me about the scale of this. How many of these data sentence that they building? Like give the audience some idea because IT, from what I know, it's not great.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's quite a lot right, especially when you see its scale up over the past number of years. So we've seen this like really significant escalation over the past five years, in particular in the construction of these data center.

So there were something like five hundred or so about five years ago, and now we're looking at more like a thousand that we're completed by the end of or in the early part of twenty four. We have many more than that now. And we know that microsoft, amazon and google in particular are making these huge investment to increase the number of data centres that they're building and build the more quickly.

Um and so you know the thing is some people might listen to this and say, okay, yeah, the data centers have been around for a long time and I think that this is an important distinction to make right? Data centers as we knew them were like a floor in an office building that a company was using for their own purposes or you know maybe even a specific room in the basement or something. But what we're talking about, in particular with amazon biker soft in google and this move to the cloud in this kind of centralized computation is the hyper scale data centers that exist on the scale that is so much greater than what we're used to have before the cloud and how we've really seen that escalate over the past few years in particular. So so that is a specific problem, right? It's not that we have computation and it's not that there is some degree of computation is the scale that these infrastructures exist that and then the question of why we actually building all these .

in the first place. So why are we building them? Like what are they actually putting in there?

Yeah and it's an essential point, right? And I I think there are a few different ways to look at that, right? Some computation is always going to be necessary for the types of things that we're doing online.

There's there's no question about that, right? I think it's fair to say that we want some degree of netflix. We want to have easy access to our email. You know, we want to be able to socialize with one another on these various platforms that we use. And I think that, that is totally legitimate and that we should be able to do those sorts of things, right. But then you ask, okay, but what is really driving this significant growth that we have been seeing over the past while and we see on the one hand, certainly that is generate of A I. The cypher currencies are a little bit separate from that because generally that stuff is not being wrong and say like the amazon, microsoft.

google servers are specific. I let exactly right.

So these are specific infrastructure being set up by like crypto miners and things like that. So it's a little bit different. We can still kind of look at the amount of energy use that's being put into those sorts of use cases. But the other piece that I think that we tend to, you know, not think about so much, especially when we talk so much about general A I, is this sort of foundation that we have built the internet on over the past number of decades.

And for a lot of these companies, the business model is collect as much data as possible so that then we can target ads and and we can target product recommendations on all this sort of stuff to you in that like surveilLance, peace and storage of massive amounts of data on all of us. And everything that we do online is also a big component of IT as well that I think it's unconsidered. And and so my provocation is like, do we really need to be collecting all that data in the first place that requires so much computation, but also storage, which is driving the the creation in the building of so many of these hydrae data res?

And are they building them just with generative? Or is generate A I just kind of an excuse?

Yeah, I I certainly see that as an excuse.

You know if you're really digg into IT, IT is a bit of both, right? On the one hand, these companies are trying to build a ton of data centers in order to power generate to AI because we both know how computationally intensive, not just the training of those models is, but also then using those products as these companies are trying to roll them out into so much of what we do, so many of the services that we use, right? But then the other piece of IT is that even before the generate AI moment, like I was talking about over the past five years, we can already see that there was the scale up in the number of hyper scale data centers being built in particular.

Um and so in that way, I see general AI as an excuse to continue building these things that they were already building in the first place. And this is like the foundational point of right is that if you think about a company like amazon, microsoft and google that has this massive cloud business and especially microsoft and amazon where they're getting so many um know whether profits from those businesses are so important to to their wider business model and and being able to expand in the so many different areas of business, you there is an inherent intent of them and know we know how capital m works. These businesses always need to grow.

They need to be making more profits in order to keep share. How is happy? So if your business is you know providing centralized computation at scale, you need the amount of computation that we all collectively use to continue growing year on year and they wanted to be growing very quickly. And that means you're not just going to need more hyper scale data centers, but you need to sell people on more computation to make the things that we use more computationally intensive to justify. Um you know this this kind of business incentive that that driving .

you so IT almost kind of sounds like they have just been trying to find computationally expensive or intensive even things so that they could build more ways to compute and justify these expensive. It's kind of sickening pieces I think about that people say to me, you're angry. why? I don't know why other people aren't angry.

I feel like you and I are about is angry little .

nicer than I am perhaps.

Thank you.

It's it's just frustrating because I was just on a podcast actually just before this and I was talking to them, they were talking about the the promise of ai. But when you get past the promise, it's really just kind of shit like it's mediocre and they're building all of this infrastructure for nothing. And one theory I have is that it's not being used. I don't know if you've seen anything that suggests that or what I mean, you've likely working off with public documents and guessing, but what if this is for nothing? What if they're just built a bunch of data centres for no reason?

Yeah and that is something that i've talked to a number of people about, right? Because i'm trying to understand that question as well. And and I think that there's two potential past that this takes. So one of them is that maybe they don't end up using some of these data centers that currently building or they scale back some of the projects that, that they're currently planning to build, right.

And so you know my kind of example to point to for that being a potential pathway is um you know remember in the early kind of probably year or or eighteen months of the pandemic, there is a lot of people who are using like amazon to get more things delivered. And as a result, amazon kind of created this plan to build a tone more warehouses than they were actually going to need. And just like you know, people went back to kind of shopping a bit more Normally um as you know the the threat or or as the lockdowns ended in things like that.

Um what you saw is the demand for amazon O R or the demand that amazon had projected decrease until they cancelled a bunch of warehouse projects and expansion across the united states in their wider warehouse network because they felt that they weren't actually going to need all of that capacity that they thought they were going to. So so that one potential path, but I think you know because of what we were saying and because of what was I what I was explaining about, you know, this need to grow the amount of computation that we are like collectively using, I think that IT is less the chance with data enters that, that is the pathway that we see. And instead, I think that the amount, the number of data centers that these companies are creating, if generate A A, I falls off, which I think we both think is going to happen ultimately, that there is going to be this this collapse, this crash. I think they will ultimately try to find some other use case to justify um building out that computation because I think that that is like the inherent project that they want to realize on the one hand, on the commercial side. But also because the people who are running these companies really believe that everything that we do in our society needs to have computation like inserted in there somehow um and this is the way that we build like the future, right?

Kind of makes me think of peloton. sure. If you remember the twenty twenty one stories, that palette, what is like possibly the next trillion dollar company? Everyone was furiously excited about paton.

And then the moment people got allowed outside again, IT started to kind of fall apart. Well, okay, I get my dates wrong because twenty, twenty one was when I started fall off. And never less. I have to wonder if that could happen here.

Because while you say they'll come up with a reason, what is IT and how does that lead to money? I just had said for a teach out on we were talking about this, it's like what if there is no plan? What if they don't other than bigger? Because IT, based on what I what the the series you're doing is about IT seems like they are committed to this, at least like this, is they need to do this to prove that they are cool rather than aren't know researching or developing things IT almost feels as if they think this is inevitable.

That's that's what I feel right. And and part of that comes not just from the commercial imperative, but also like these broader ideological things that i'm sure that you've discussed on your show and that i've been discussing with people as well. But when you hear people like, say, sam, alt men or every mid or elan must talk about how a eyes are going to become so intelligent and know same, almost specifically saying that he wants to make sure that we like all merge our brains with machines and and all these sorts of things like I I think that suggests also like the direction that these people want to go.

Not because you know, not just because of commercial reasons, not just because they think they're going to make more profits or or try to realize some kind of world that they want to realize this way, but because they think that if this is the direction that we don't take as a society, then you know the future that they think is the one that we need to realize in order to have this wonderful, glorious future where humanity exists forever and we colonize all these planets and all this kind of stuff. If we don't take this direction, if we don't develop these incredibly powerful AI, then in their mind this isn't going to happen. So IT feels like, yes, there's the commercial element of this, right? They're trying to drive investment with this A I boom by promising so much about IT, but like ideologically in in their kind of mind ds and world views, they think that this the direction that we have to go or we're basically all doomed, even though in the process they're .

kind of dooming us by destroying the environment to we don't do ourselves. That's the every thing.

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So let's talk costs yet. What is being put into this because I have ball park numbers, but maybe you have some Better ideas. How much is actually going into this?

yes. So so it's hundreds of hundreds of billions. Let me get that right. Um if not trillions of dollars right? And I can't remember the exact figures off the off of my head.

But over the past uh years, say from june of twenty twenty three to july twenty twenty four, microsoft has been allowing hundreds of billions of dollars into data center expansions around the world. Amazon committee, I believe that was one point five trillion dollars earlier this year, last year to data expansion, with about five hundred billion of that going out in the short term. So these are like massive numbers.

We know that microsoft, open a eye, have talked about building a one hundred billion dollar data center complex that would need uh, nuclear energy in order to power up because of so energy intense that we have right? exactly. Um so so like these are the kinds of numbers that we're talking about and and I feel like these are the types of numbers that we often hear, like governments talk about when they're making like massive investment projects or something. Not like private companies but because these private companies are so huge um it's like they can build out these infrastructures that have you know such a huge impact that they have impacts not just in communities but like nationwide globally because they are so significant.

Almost feels like a kind of authority m feels like they're building out a new governmental system that they control, that they meet around, which includes a pampering element to IT as well where they control the power of amErica even though power is theoretically civic good, like a civic utility. Well, I definitely feels that way.

especially when you look at like the politics that they're embracing two right um where you have so many of these influential people in silicon valley not just embracing like Donald trump but embracing this form of far right politics that is you know gaining steam in a number of countries around the world that is explicitly anti democratic. You know ella musk is talking a lot a lot about that these days and saying that he thinks the democrats are going to end democracy.

Meanwhile, lc Donald trumping, quite explicit, that, you know, he wants to a pin, john, democratic, right? right? And these people have no problem like working with anti democratic leaders around the world, as long as they see IT as the way to like advance not only their um kind of personal interest and and to make sure their companies do well, but also again, to try to realize this like type of future that they think is desirable.

I was just recently talking to Julia black as a reporter at the information about this and he did a profile on courtesy van who was like this guy ah this guy who like calls himself a dark elf but that was one of the cofounder ers of the dark enlightenment this like know this like political movement that wants to see a monarchy established in the united states that structured more like the o of a corporation to have the united states run as an authoritarian state. We know that Peter deal, american rison and a ton of these guys like support these ideas. So, you know, like you can see that with the data centers, you can see this like concerning power grab as these infrastructures expand and the the the hands of these major tech companies. But even when you look at like the leaders of these companies themselves, you can see that they very much want to make sure that you know the power of the people through retails so that they can do whatever they want.

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like really, like .

definitely .

a .

bottle poppa when he he pops his clogs, there will all be celebrating. So has there been any push back against these data centers you've seen either from governments or people?

Yeah, absolutely. And and that's part of the reason that I wanted to make the series and also like why I came much more on my radar because I started hearing these stories of push back happening really around the world, right? IT and IT started with just hearing like the story of the doll in oregon where these people are trying to find out the amount of water that google's data centres were using.

And then google um or sorry, then you know there was actually a lawsuit because google wouldn't share that information and IT took a year for them to share IT with the organum, which is the local newspaper and they found that over the past few years, google's water use I think he was over the past five years, google's water use had tripled just in that city alone yeah so so these are really significant developments, right? But then I started to hear about how, say, in phoenix or another Virginia or many other parts of the united states, there were also growing concerns about data centers. And then I started to learn about in ireland how now twenty one percent of all electricity goes to data centers.

And that's causing concerns about the ability of the power grid to keep up um you know but also about whether you know that makes sense to be allowing this many data interest to be built. You know concerns in spain about the amount of water usage in areas that are increasingly facing drought um you concerns in in france and the netherlands but also in parts of asia in south amErica where communities in cha we're saying like if you build this massive google data center, will we still have running water into our homes and google not being able say like yeah definitely we can make sure that will happen and so then they campaign to try to stop IT like around the world. You're seeing the opposition to these things grow.

And I would say part of the reason for that going back to what I was saying earlier, is that it's not just the scale of these infrastructures, but it's because these companies are trying to build out so many more of them around the world. And when they get located in these communities, once one is established, they usually try to build more around IT to cluster them right because they're usually beneficial reasons why they've located when they are in the first place. Um and so then you have these these increasingly um you know greater demands being placed on the power grids and in the water infrastructure of these communities and eventually IT reaches the point where where many of them start to break and start to say like wait, this doesn't make sense anymore.

You're threatening our own access to electricity or to water or whatever. Um and and so you know that is why I I you know i've been paying so much more attention to this issue because I think it's something that we are all going to be hearing much more about. And I think that the earlier that we do start to take notice of these problems and start to push back on them, you know the hopefully the earlier we can start to curtail these effects and make sure that, you know these companies can just get away with doing whatever they want.

Have we seen any situations where they have actually stopped people accusing power of water?

Yeah um so in a few places we have seen like the grades actually be written. So for example, in ireland now um the great Operator in the winter often has to issue these Amber alerts to basically say to people like um reduce your energy consumption or we're going to start doing roling blackouts um there were concerns is a story that Karen how wrote in the atlantic about what was going on in phoenix um and and one of the biggest concerns areas of course is phoenix s has a lot of desert yeah the next experiences drought a lot.

And so as more and more data centers of being built there because the energy tends to be cheaper and tends to be have a higher kind of tage of renewable in there is my understanding um that they're going they are regardless of the water impacts. And so they are growing concerns about people's ability to know access water when these data enters need so much despite the drought conditions that so many people are facing and how we know that, you know, governments tend to turn off water to the populations before the businesses that that design on the times of things. Yeah.

I truly awful. Like that is why every time I think of stuff like that, I start getting a bit crazy because it's just like you think that they would say, well, actually what we want to do is turn off for the business. No, no, no. We must make sure the businesses can keep generating A I, R fields if we don't have got fired with nak forty seven. Well, what uses being a while drink water exactly.

One of the wild things to that I was learning about in um in ireland in particular is that so you know like I was saying, there's twenty one percent of all the electricity now in that country going to data centers is projected to be about a third by twenty thirty.

And so for a while the government there, or at least in certain jurisdictions of the country, kind of stop connecting data centers to the grid, stop making new grid connections because you know they were like there's not enough power to supply these infrastructures. And so what these data centers started doing instead was to build local um mEthane gas generation facilities to bring in the gas themselves to they empower the data center because they couldn't connect directly to the grid. And then of course, you you can imagine all the additional emissions that that creates with this kind of like local gas generation infrastructure.

And that's one of the things that's contributing to ireland not know being able to meet its climate targets or that not really being in reach. One of the local td or or members of parliament who I spoke to there basically told me that like there is renewable energy being added to the grid in ireland. But the problem that we faces that because the energy demand is increasing so rapidly that, you know, the renewable just go to powering the data centers and we can't turn the fossil fuels off, was seeing a ton of stories about that in the united states as well where, yes, renewables are being added to the grid, but the fossil fuels are not being turned off next to IT in in some cases, fossil fuel infrastructures is actually being reactivated. Or there was a story, and I can't remember what was bloomberg, the financial times recently, that basically said the united states is investing in new fossil fuel infrastructure and the fastest rated has in in years, which is .

northern india. The that's a very depressing thing. I want to die. My question is, why don't we? I know this is perhaps a little bit.

Force, but why we not making them pay to upgrade the infrastructure? why? Why is the government not just being like, you want this shit going? Build IT for us, give us the money, will do IT. Is that happy? I know we have this nuclear power plants.

but in some places that is happening actually um so in the dolls, for example, in organ you where I think maybe most people probably heard the story of that because google was trying to hold back its water use um data and what on and eventually had to share IT um but in that case, they have made an agreement with the local council in order to upgrade their water infrastructure so that they should have more um water available. Again, that doesn't mean that that the community isn't still concerned about water.

What's to happen there is not the related amount of that more infrastructure isn't .

gonna if we run out of IT. Yeah the tree how .

do you feel about the nuclear power side? Because i'm kind of fifty, fifty I like nuclear power, I think I would say back but IT seems like it's IT seems like they're privatizing IT, which is not solving the problem.

yeah. I I would say i'm probably more on the skeptical side of nuclear power and that's for a few reasons um where nuclear power exists. I think IT doesn't make any sense to turn that off right, because that's going to be far Better than any kind of fossil fuel generation that we're doing.

And that should be kind of one of the last things that we actually target for replacement with renewable or what not like. I don't totally agree with germany turning off its nuclear energy and going back to coal. I think that that is a mistake um but i'm more skeptical of investing in nuclear at this point and treating IT as like climate response because we know that nuclear energy is not only very expensive but takes so much time to like set up a new nuclear plant. And IT feels like at this point when we've seen the cost of installing solar and and wind energy declined so much in recent years that IT feels much more kind of not just cost effective but much more rapid to just invested in building out large scale .

renewable instead though that renewables don't generate power quite as fast because you can .

set up the battery storage facilities and things like that, the store things for the times when it's not generating. Yeah that's kind of the way that that I see you.

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cast hey everyone, jake story only here from john boy media I want to tell you about my podcast wake and jake it's you're go to spot for anything and everything sports, baseball, football, basketball, hockey, goal, college, whatever thought street we're talking about IT on wake and jake. So if you're a die hard fan or looking for the latest buzz we've got you covered no matter your favorite sport. We're breaking IT down with the passion that i'll make you feel like you in the stands with us plus i've got a bunch of guess foolish Bailey jia, Chris rose and more mogra rankings, whatever you want, it's the sports world and come on and join our friends in the wake and jake family you will not regret IT. So new episodes monday and wednesday, you can watch along on the wake and jake youtube channel or listen awake and jack on the eye art radio APP apple podcast or whatever you get your podcast.

It's so funny. I think something is just come to me with this as well that really pisses me off, which is, I know, unusual for me the sense that you just mentioned battery storage. What if they put all the money into investing in staff like that?

What if all of this money could go into? That would be a mom casey brought this up recently, like one of the very clear places money could go, that would be very good. Like if we had massive battery stories for power. This would solve many problems and actually probably create new things we could do especially, and we could be genuinely do amazing things, the world even describing IT. Now I feel more excited about this than generative A I, but it's almost feels like the kind of lazy that they don't want to solve the actual problems to get to the point that they just want to build more and keep doing the bullshit they ve been doing for years.

I feel like part of IT is profitability as well, right? Like when you think about investing in like so called tech or or generate A I, what have you? Whenever we have investors thinking about tech businesses, we're thinking about these kind of really rapid take off in the amount of money that they are going to make, the the chance for these like really significant pay offices, the money if the the company really works.

And so you often have these companies trading at multiples that are far above, say, what a traditional company would trade up when IT goes public, right? Whereas if you think of like a more traditional type of company, the possibility of the chances that you're going to get this massive pay off or far lower. And so there's less of an incentive to put your into that type of place when um says some sort of tech business is going to have um you this much greater chances of having this huge pay off.

And so I think that that is a like one place where, you know obviously, we live in a capital system where incentives are kind of missile and and is one of the things that I find quite silly where like the united states is having this big food with china now and very concerned about the the ability for chinese tech companies are White, not to compete with U. S. Companies on the global stage.

Auto makers and things as well. But one of the reasons that solar energy is so cheap, and one of the reasons that we've had this like significant expansion in evs we often point to to elon mosque, for example, is like the one who deserves all the credit for that. But the chinese have really been successful in bringing down the cost of those types of technology, solar and batteries, ies and things like that in particular. Um and you you know I I think that we should be trying to like build on that rather than just trying to like exclude the jeepers stuff. Our our markets more .

fundamental disagree paris because I don't want chinese companies in like stealing my data tracking americans uh, using that to monetize them somehow in manipulating them using that. That's for american businesses. We keep our surveilLance capitalism in the U S.

Of a it's just pieces me off as well because I look down ogling into geopolitics. But IT feels like some of this A I bom is even driven by a synaptic bia. This is if we don't build IT that the chinese will build their A I on their god.

Fields will be even busier than us. And it's just frustrating because I don't know about working. We're the chinese are not going to get into that.

But also IT feels like a dumb, stupid, well, what we have another country that's building things fast, probably in ways that we might not want to do. Labor wise, I don't know. But nevertheless, IT feels like we're actually not all of this rapid expansion, all of this shit we're supposedly building doesn't actually seem to be innovation. IT just is capital.

Yes, I definite agree, right? IT feels like silica. I left the innovation behind quite a while ago. Like I think that you can very genuinely say that in the early days of the internet there was innovation going on, right? Um whether I was in a software development but also in hardware development too, right?

Know the the emergence of the mobile phone and um we can even say the ipad and in those sorts of things. But IT feels like now know those types of developments. Those innovations have matured and IT does feel like the industry is kind of sort of trying to grope for whatever might come next, but really fAiling in doing that because their profits and and their whole businesses are tied up in what is currently successful at the moment.

And I think a lot of them don't want to disrupt what is working for them and want to protect these what are now basically legacy businesses that they they have built up and that they are now kind of soaking for cash, right? Um and so I don't think that we should be looking to the google are apples are amazons of the world for innovation and for the path forward for for what is going to come next. And I think that even like if you think back to like the internet era and things that came before, often what a lot of people have observed, you know, mary animals okata has this great book call.

I think it's the entrepreneur state that goes into this as well. How a lot of the things that these companies were able to launch and and able to make so much money from, we're ultimately things that we're being developed like in the public sector and that they were able to privatize and and make a lot of money off of, right? Obviously, the internet was a public innovation before IT was private zed and all these companies could use IT and and commercialized that.

I was not right, and I feel like something has broken down there as well where so much public research seems to be focused on a on a very early stage. And like what is the commercialized potential of this rather than just saying forget about commercialization for a while and let's just like work on these things and see if IT goes anywhere 啊。 And IT just feels like in general, like you, our deep commitment to capitalism in our society has broken down. Where's before like IT used to be measured a bit um because there needed to be like certain deliverables for people in a different kind of an expectation. But at this point, we just going so full tilt on like whatever makes profit is what we need to do that we've lost the things that ultimately contribute to that in the long term, rather than always on short term.

IT makes me think about like giving things time to build, because generate of a as an idea. You have to wonder if they left IT alone for another five to ten years without doing this, whether IT might have actually been good, if there was potential for this cause. I think with long gun, with large language bottles on device stuff, I think is cool. But nevertheless were not talk about that. But it's kind of we instead of investing in public things or nonprofits that actually build the building blocks that make innovation happen, we've allowed companies like welcome to vacuum up various codex and standards to the point the most of the world by one company.

And then we pile or we don't really have anyone in power anymore, so who understands what the fox going on? So we pile all that cash into something that kind of looks like the future because I think about the iphone as they took someone about jim cavell in the generate V I paper from golbin earlier, and he was saying how one of the big things that made the smart phone revolution happened. One of the things that they knew when this happened would bring in was small G, P S, was the ability to have device level G, P.

S, and of course, the chips to support. And then someone would need to build the software there, which is where apple came in. And then I enjoys some exam.

And we don't have that building blocks like we have one thing, we have generative AI, we have transformer based models, and we're gonna put all the money in that in the hopes. The no one's even thinking of what the next devices might look. I can't stop thinking about batteries now because that really is IT.

It's if we had a battery, that good power I have. No, i'm being a bit winky here, a city. actually.

I'm not being one key. This is less winky than what sammon says every day that feels like. Or incredibly small batteries, which are powerful, that would enable all sorts of things.

A J. I is exciting. They've been working on been around ten years. None of the people empower seeing to actually be aware of how good things are built, which I guess explains the data center expansion.

Because if you think of IT like a dumb fog, if you like, huh? How do we make money? We got those data center right? If we be more of them, yeah, what if they're really big, then the money will come out them.

And just what are you worried? I'm a bit worried about the entire ted economy at this point. It's not the environment.

But like i'm worried about at all, you know I am less worried about the tech economy in the sense of like will they be profile enough? Will they make their money? Like I don't really care about that. That's not like yeah something that's important to me and I know that's the same for you. It's like I do worry about where it's going because they are broader, like societal impacts to everything that they do, right on the one hand, because of like the expectation that we need to adopt so many of these things, but also because our government so much are supporting and and willing to push out and and not regulate effectively whatever is that that they do until it's too late. And I feel like you know what you're talking about with general eye, even i'm not going to claim to be like you the the most knowledgeable person in the world about the technical angle of that.

But when you look at what, say, OpenAI was trying to do and what all these other companies have kind of chaste after, is they were trying to build, like, the general foundation model that could do virtually everything, right? And you speak to A I researchers, know I ve spoken to some A I researchers who say, like, yes, that is very energy intensive, that is going to take a lot of power, energy data in order to make IT work. But you can like train very tailored, much smaller models that are not nearly as computationally or or energy intensive as the direction that these companies have chosen to go in.

But we are not doing that now. And I think for a few reasons, mainly because on the one hand, there is like the expectation of scale or the desire of scale that comes with these general foundation models. I think that there is the other side of IT where. It's very beneficial to the tech companies that exists, you know, the cloud giants because if you're competing on this scale of general foundation models that needs so much computation in order to train, that is very difficult for smaller companies to like compete on that level.

But then I think IT also plays into that ideological angle of IT that I was talking about earlier, where you have these people who are leading the tech industry who fundamentally believe that we need to build, like, you know, A I with human intelligence and eventually merge our brains with machines. And so we were not building these massive general models that were not getting closer in their minds to achieving this, which I I think is ultimately something and that's never going to get built because I don't think that makes sense actually. I think it's just such fiction, but I think that is like part of what's driving .

these people too. So to finish yourself, so you've got two episodes out right now. What we got to look forward to with the rest of the series even .

yeah absolutely. You know the first one looked into like what these data centers are, whether y're coming from. The second one looked into what this community opposition that we're seeing looks like.

The third one that will come out soon looks at the climate impacts of generate vi in the way that generate A. A. I is helping to fuel this further construction of hyper scale data enters. And then the fourth one looks into the broader impacts of this, whether we can think about a different way of approaching this problem and these ideological issues and previous positions and and you know, things that these tech billionaire are wound up with, that they are trying to push on the rest of the world, and how that relates to this anti democratic politics that so many of them are adopting.

Well, paris, it's been such a pleasure of you on where can people find you? absolutely.

They can find the podcast tech won't save us on any pogis APP where they like to listen. I'm on the most of the social media, the text base at least where you can find me at paris Marks.

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Hey everyone, jack story early here from john boy media I want to tell you about my podcast wake and jake. I've been a sports not my whole life, and there's nothing I love more than talking about IT. If you're sports fan, wake and jake is the place for you covering all the hot topics from the sports s world, lot of baseball, a lot of posts and coverage, mock draps awards, guess interviews, all of bit new episodes every monday and wednesday. Come watch along on the wake and jake youtube channel or listen on the I heart radio APP apple podcast .

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Three things episodes come out every tuesday, and for thirty minutes I dive into three stories in majority baseball that I want to talk about. Or I do a stat deep dive. Sometimes I create my own stats.

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