Real Wives of Dictators | Börte, wife of Genghis Khan
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I am here, you are here, and we are all ready to proceed with the show. But before we can do that, I have to tell you, this is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way, covering a range of adult subjects, and you should be an adult too. Do you feel safer? I'm glad you feel safer. I certainly feel safer. Right, on with the show! They say that behind every great man, there's a great woman.

I've never really believed that. But what about evil men? Are there crap and evil women behind them too? And whilst it's the men in these horror stories that seem to get the most attention, in this brand new miniseries, we are exploring the lives of four of the wives of some of history's most bloody and notorious dictators.

Were they victims? She was certainly young at the beginning. She was drawn to the flame. Absolutely. Or were they enablers? She famously defied the judges, calling them fascists. And she said, I was Mao's dog. I bit who he told me to bite. She's aware of the anti-Semitism. It's not that she looks the other way. She doesn't think it's a problem. She doesn't need to look the other way. What was that?

was their life like behind closed doors? She's grown up in a revolutionary family and she married a revolutionary. So you can assume that she's on the revolutionary side. And were any of these women thirsty for power themselves? The rest of the leadership was dead set against it. They sensed her ambition. They had an instinct about her. I'm Kate Lister and these are The Real Wives of Dictators.

Episode one, Bote Ugin, a.k.a. Mrs. Genghis Khan. What do you look for in a man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning it up and pushing it. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, I feel so done. Goodness has nothing to do with it, do you?

Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. 12th century Mongolia was quite a tough environment and they didn't get much tougher than in the world of the Khans. That is Genghis Khan and the focus of today's episode is his wife, Borte. Did she share his ideology and ambition for creating a united Mongol empire or was she just along for the ride?

happened when she was kidnapped in the first years of their marriage and what influence did she exert, especially when it came to the other women in Genghis's life. Joining me today is Marie Favaro, author of The Horde, How the Mongols Changed the World, and she is going to help us get to know Borte a little bit better. So without further ado, let's crack on. Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Marie Favaro. How are you doing? I'm

Hello, Kate. I'm doing very well. Still in Bishkek, you know, in the heart of Central Asia. So Kyrgyzstan. Now the weather is better. It's not minus 10. It's more minus 5. And with some snow, it's okay. It's not so bad. Yeah.

Well, thank you so much for joining us again because you were here previously to tell us about the man behind the myth of Genghis Khan, not Genghis Khan, as we all learnt in that episode. It's supposed to be pronounced Genghis, despite what we learnt in Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. But you are back to tell us about Mrs Genghis Khan, somebody that we very rarely has made friends

the impact on the public consciousness the way that Genghis did. In fact, when you think of him, you tend not to think of him having a wife. You tend to think of him with a sort of a harem. So, like...

Let's start with the most basic question. Who was Mrs. Genghis Khan? Well, Mrs. Genghis Khan, her name is Berthe. And in the sources, she's even named Berthe Uchin, which means Lady Berthe. She's not any Berthe. She's Lady Berthe.

And she's the primary wife, the chief wife, the first wife. She's the most important wife of Genghis Khan. And without her, it's clear they would not ever have been a Mongol empire. All these big conquests, Genghis led up to Korea, one side, Europe on the other side. Never, ever anything would have happened without Berthe. She's a very, very important character. And she was...

acknowledged as such, even by the people of the time, 13th century Mongol people, who really respected her very, very much, Berthe Uchin, so Jingyi's wife. All right. So she sounds like, well, quite a badass in her own right, but paint me a bit of a picture of

they grew up, where they came from. This is Mongolia in the 12th and 13th century. What was this like? Because when I think of this, I'm afraid I think of the Dothraki from Game of Thrones. I don't know if that's right. Yeah.

That's zero historical accuracy. But that's kind of what I see when I think of the Mongols in Mongolia. Please disabuse me of that and tell me what these people were like. Yeah, so this space is more or less what is Mongolia today. Step areas with some forest and mountains, not just think about like, you know, grass,

But really also mountains and rivers and forests are very important. Very cold in winter, probably rather hot in summer, a little bit like today. That's what we think. And also all these peoples, sometimes we call them tribes. But, you know, this word tribe is a bit strange because in sources it's

Those peoples have names. So there are groups of peoples, you know, in this area. Some are called Mongols. Some are called differently. So Berthe's people is called Kongirat, people Kongirat. And they are very important in Mongolia. They are very much in the east of Mongolia.

far away from where Genghis Khan was born, several weeks probably on horseback from his place. So, you know, they are from different areas in Mongolia. What we know about her people is that they were quite wealthy and peaceful people. They have this reputation in the old sources. So we are now in the end of 12th century Mongolia.

And these groups and peoples in Mongolia, Mongols, others we'll name later, probably like Tatar, maybe Merkits also, all those peoples,

tend to fight and lie depending on circumstances but there's not one big empire there's not just one umbrella power you know they are fragmented but they respect one another and they also have common traditions especially it's very important when you look for a wife or when you look for a husband to go far away from your family because you want to avoid you know blood

You want to know that you're exactly incest. You want to be sure that also it's going to be a very like sound alliance for your family. So it's better to go far away from, from your own land and your own family. And that's what happened. Actually, Genghis Khan, young boy would go with his father to look for a bride for him far away from his place, from some term, they go East. Ah,

up to, and they will end up into Bertie's family, right? So several weeks of travel. So that's the early beginning of their relations, and it's end of 12th century, and that's basically what we know. It's vague, but it's enough information to know it happened. It's not like a mystical legend, whatever. We know this happened.

And they were nomadic people, weren't they? So they were moving around all the time and they live in yurts, is that right? Is that where they live? In Mongolia, we call them ger. So these are round tents for six to eight people usually.

nomadic means they move, but they don't move all the time. They move with seasons and they move also according to the weather. So if weather conditions, even if it's springtime, weather condition are bad, there's wind, they might move, right? But if the weather condition are

Good herds are doing well. They stay. It's very important to understand that they live in the town and also that they are herders, all of them. Cengiz family, Bertie's family. So they have horses, they have camels, they might have goats and sheep as well. It's their everyday life. So everyday life, they can understand each other.

They can communicate. They know if they are herders. But probably Bertie's family is richer, wealthier than Genghis, right? In the beginning. Oh, okay. He's punching above his weight. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Genghis' first name, Genghis is the title, Genghis Khan. His first name is Temujin. This young boy, Temujin, is around... We think, yeah, Temujin is nine years old.

He's nine. And he met her, his future wife. She's 10. She's one year older than him. I like that. They're so little. Yeah. She's a bit older. I think it's interesting because she's going to be like his...

in many ways later in his life. You know, she's going to be so important. And I think this one year difference, of course, when you grow up, it means nothing. But when you're young, it's a big thing. You know, nine and ten, especially girls and boys, you know, nine and ten. The difference is huge. So, yeah, they met around his age, nine and ten.

What sources do you use to research this history? Did they write things down? Have they left us stories? How do we know this stuff? How do we know when Timmy and Bertie met?

Well, I would say the main source is called The Secret History of the Mongols. This source was written, we think, yeah, it was written in the mid-13th century, just after Genghis Khan died, probably under one of his son's successors.

But we think that the story, it's like a biography of Genghis Khan, official biography. So we have to sort of, you know, read in between lines, you know, against the grain, I think we say, but against the grain. Still, it's very much about a family. It's very much about the love and the meeting of this couple, Genghis and Berthe. They

There are key characters in what's going to be a lineage, like imperial lineage of the Mongol Empire. So they are so important. So I would say like the problem for us historians is it's official. So it means some details might have been changed and erased.

But at the same time, it's coming from Mongolia from inside. It's a Mongolian source, 100%. And very interesting, this source focused very much on women, not only on Bertie, on other women in Jing's family and his mother also, and some of his daughters are mentioned as well. But we know that in this source, for Mongolian people, mid-13th century women were

are in charge also. They are very important persons, political terms, economically speaking as well. So that's also why this source is so rich and interesting if you want to think about who was this birthday woman, who know what kind of person she was and what role she played

in the beginning of the Mongol Empire. So I'm assuming then that this would have been an arranged marriage, that it wouldn't have been the case for a nine and a 10 year old to start dating. This would have been set up by the families, but did they love each other? Like what, how did they get along? Do the sources tell us anything like that?

Yeah, this is a very important question, Gates. Actually, so yes, it's arranged in a sense that Cengiz's father, Yusuf Gates, takes his son, so Cengiz, to find a bride, to find someone. There's a political alliance behind their things. But he doesn't know who...

you know, it goes to some families who have good relationship with his own lineage but it's not decided in advance who's going to be the bride. It's said in the secret history of the Mongol that there's some sort of

between the two fathers, so Jinky's father and Bertie's father, and they sort of connect. Bertie's father had a dream and he dreamed about this family coming to him and this potential alliance. But then when Jinky

Jing is met with a birthday. It doesn't know yet, you know, she's one among others, although she's one of the daughters of the chief. But yeah, it could have been another girl. This one, it said she's not only fair, beautiful girl, but she's also has some fire in her eyes and she has really something. Which means she was probably, she looked intelligent and fierce and strong. Yeah.

And somehow it's part of the information that sort of helped Jane Geese to fall in love with her or in any case to build up a very strong couple relationship with her. Because of course, love, who knows?

we are not in their mind of the time, right? But clearly this couple, it's going to be a strong couple that's going to work very well. So they connected. And I like the fact that it's a source that said she had fire in her eyes. It's also said that Jing is in

himself as a boy, he had something in his eyes that they were special, both of them. And they are intelligent, both of them. And they sort of connect through their eyes. And I really like this idea. I love that.

You touched just briefly there on what it was like to be a woman in this culture. If I'm thinking about 12th century Europe, it's deeply patriarchal and women weren't as confined to the domestic as you'd like to think, but it certainly wasn't. They weren't having a riot. The menfolk were very much in charge. What was it like in Mongolia? Yeah.

Yes, it's very different in Mongolia. It's different because herders, they work together. There's a lot of work in the camp. So you have to take care of the animals. You have a lot of work to do. They can't be pissing around, staying at home when you've got stuff to do, can you? Yeah.

Exactly. Women are in charge of many tasks and they work a lot. But they also, we know they need to move freely. Because you asked me about sources and I mentioned a text of the secret history of the Mongols. But we have also to mention archaeology and textiles and we have burials and we have a little idea of how women would have lived.

been dressed, for instance, you know, and they're closed. And we know that they would be like men a little bit. They would have the same type of shoes as the same type of coat. They would ride horses. We know this from also miniatures for later, later period, but still we know with description. So they are very free that the body of the woman is very free to move because they need to work. Even if they are from high society, they

They are active women and they show themselves and show their face. They don't have veiled faces. It gives us a little bit of an idea of what, you know, Berthe could have been, you know, even, you know, her clothes, her way of doing everyday life. We know she knows how to ride a horse like a man. We know she's very strong physically, like she does a lot of work and she's the daughter of the chief. So it gives us some idea, right? And also we

We have some clues about the religion of the Mongols of the time. They know about Christian religions and they know about Islam and they know about Buddhists, but they are different. They have their own ways of being connected to the nature, to spirits of the nature, spirit of the rivers, of the mountain, of the hills, the spirit of the ancestors. But we know that in their religion and belief, there's nothing that would sort of

Don't play the role of woman. It's very important. I think that women, they participate in rituals like men.

They are not like sent away because there are some rituals. So I think also that might be when you look at Middle Ages as a historian, the influence of religion is very important. So here we see something much more open where men and women are more on equal basis. Although they have different tasks to do, there are things women do and things men do. So

differentiation, gender differentiation is there, but still it doesn't mean there's not equal respect in this society for men and women. So that's very special. And we know through the eyes of Western travelers or Muslim travelers or Chinese travelers to Mongol area that

women are really free and they are showing themselves as strong public characters and all those witnesses from other parts of the world are super shocked that, whoa, in this part, women are so different. And they even say, okay, you, like, imagine you're a traveler, you're coming from the West, you need to bring some gift for the Mongol chief, but you have to bring some gift for his wife, for the Mongol woman as well.

That is really said in our sources and texts. They have to be considered just like men in terms of quality.

political influence, this is something that is super different from the rest of the world, as far as we know. That makes perfect sense, actually. When you think about it, if you've got a group of people that are nomadic, which involves packing up an entire home, moving it, moving with the animals, re-establishing it, putting it up, there's no space there for women to go, oh, I'm too delicate. There's no stay at home if home is constantly being moved. So that makes perfect sense, that there isn't

space for this sort of confinement of women and this weakening of women that you see in the West of like, they're very delicate. If you have to ride around on a horse all day, no, no, you're not. I'll be back with Marie and Borte after this short break.

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All right, so Bertie...

And Tim and Jen have got married and they've got married very, very little. What on earth would that have been like to be married as a 10-year-old? Was anyone expecting them to be proper man and wife at this point? When do babies start to arrive? Are they playing house? What is going on here?

Okay. So first, when they are nine and 10, they get engaged, but they don't really marry. That makes more sense. Okay. Very important. Yeah. They really respect like the cycle of life. So you don't, you get engaged, but you don't marry before a certain period of time. Right. And actually we know that they get married probably seven, eight years after that. So late teenagers, probably...

we can imagine Temujin is 16 and she, Bertie, is 17. Not sure about dates, you know, but that's what we see. Something like rather rational, right? They get married and very soon after, so there are a lot of political issues and troubles with enemies, right?

At that time, Genghis, in between, lost his father, killed by enemies. And when he married Berthe, very soon after he married her, something terrible happened to them. Enemies came. So it's people called Melkits people. They live a little bit more in the north. They are more like forest people. They have to take revenge from the Mongols for some personal reason.

So they come back to the Mongols. They found the camp of Genghis and his wife, and they captured Berthet. Oh!

And at that moment, Bertie and Jamie Gina are just married since less than a year, just a few months, right? So that's a very tragic moment. It's described as such in The Secret History of the Mongol. It was that common practice as a revenge tactic. We're just going to go and kidnap the wife of an opposing tribe. And dare I ask,

What happened then? Like they're taken back to their... Oh God, like what did this mean, Marie? Yes, it seems that it happens. So it's probably common. You take the wife and you marry them. So it's not just you take the wife and kill them or it's not... Imagine at that time...

People value life, okay? But they, what they want. So if another chief comes to you, want to take revenge about something, it will take your family, your wife, your children, not to kill them, but to integrate them in these home people, to make these home people larger. Wow. That's small.

That's more the way we have to think about it. It's not about killing each other. It's more about integrating more people. So, of course, you can imagine they are prisoners, but it's more complex than that because probably Bertie was kind of married to one of the market chiefs, to the enemies. So the idea is not to get rid of her. It's not to use her. She has potential. She's coming from a wealthy family.

And also it's like you show how victorious you were on your enemy if you take wife, family, animals, everything from your enemy, right? So that's the idea behind. So she was captured and married to some American prince probably. Shit.

Yes. And the tragic aspect also of the story is that it is said in the official source that Genghis just left her. When the market came, he just ran away to hide himself. Genghis. And he left her behind. Yes. He ran away. Genghis Khan ran away. Yes. And it's said in an official sources, Mongol sources. So the idea is to show that he was not able to defend his wife.

And he just ran for his life. But in some ways, you can see it's rational because he needs to protect himself before. If he's not alive, how can he protect his family, right? So he needs to just hide and protect himself. But then after that, it's said that how bad he felt about it. And then he's going to work on getting his wife back. It's like never, ever forgetting her. He knows everything.

She is the one and he wants her back and will do everything to get her back. And this is also part of the story. It's the official source, which I think is, we don't know. Honestly, we're not in the end of 12th century. We don't know exactly what happened, but it's super interesting that it's presented as such in the official text. The fact that the chief is,

had this failure, leaving his wife behind to some enemies. So that's a really big thing. That's a big thing. But also that he felt pain and sorry and guilt about it. It's interesting he's there in the text and also how he's going to bring her back. So that's a whole story like...

How he's going to build up a new army, make a new alliance, sort of convince his friends to sort of join him, to sort of do some expedition to get her back because he wants his wife back. And that's what happened. After probably something like seven, eight months, he's able to get her back. Long time. Yeah, it's a long time. And it's seven, eight months. And when he get her back, she's pregnant, almost two.

about to have delivered a baby. So some people believe the baby is not from Genghis, it's from the American prince and the husband she was forced to marry when she was in captivity. And that's possible, of course. But I think it's special that in this text, it's not said that we know. Because imagine at that time, no DNA research, not like today. Today you know.

But at that time, there's no way you can know. So it might be Genghis, but it might be the American prince who's the father of the first baby she's going to have. That's a big issue in some ways, because after that, it's going to come back into sources. Oh, maybe this firstborn son is not really from Genghis. He's from another father, you know? So the firstborn son has a name.

Zöchi. Zöchi means guests. It's interesting. That's an interesting choice. The meaning. Exactly. So we have two options. One is because the baby is born unexpectedly. So after he got his wife back,

On the road, the baby came. So guests, you know, he arrived. We didn't know it would be the time and the moment. So that's one explanation. The other explanation is a guest in the center is a guest in a family. He's a guest because he's not from Genghis Khan.

bloodline but he's from America's chief bloodline. But Genghis recognized him as his son though didn't he? Exactly that's what is beautiful in this story. I didn't expect that. Yeah Genghis recognized his son as his first born and he would always give him everything. When you look at the first period of Genghis conquest when he gives some responsibilities and just you know

peoples and armies to his son, he would always favor his firstborn until some point. They would have some, you know, issues at some point, something that could happen between father and son, I think, in general. But we know he would always say, this is my son. There's no question about it. And it doesn't allow anyone to question the fact that this boy is his son. And Berkeley, of course, the same. She would always support her son and treat him as family.

the others and never show anything. Or at least that's what we have in our sources, in the text. There's nothing that would say at some point that they love him less for any reasons. Also interesting when you think about the notion of adoption, because Berthe, she's amazing. So she had his first foreign son, okay? Then she would have three more sons with Genghis.

These ones are like, you know, we know for sure they are coming from, you know, it's, they are Jenkins' grandfather, but then she's going to have five daughters as well. So it's quite a lot of kids, right? Nine. Yeah. And look, she's going to also adopt. She's going to adopt kids as well, at least three or four more kids. And adoption is something very important at that time in this world. I mean,

I mean, life is harsh. There's war often. There's no regulation about, you know, orphans and anything. And Genghis' mother, Soberti, she would adopt kids and she would treat these adopted kids as her own kids as well. And she would be really respectful with them. And Genghis would give the adopted kids also a lot of functions, roles, cash, respect, everything as well.

I think it's very beautiful as well. So it shows a couple working hard, you know, to create a huge family with adopted kids, biological kids, maybe up to 15, you know, at the end, right? And loving them, loving them. Yeah. I'll be back with Marie and Borte after this short break.

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So the marriage, I mean, they must have loved each other. Genghis must have loved her to have gone to all that trouble to get her back. And, you know, they seem to have, right, we're here together and we're going to grow our family. And at some point, he also decides to unite the Mongol Empire, which is impressive. Along the way, Bertie has found herself wife to the first Mongol emperor, which I don't know if she saw that coming. But what's...

What were her powers within that? Because Genghis is very powerful and he was sort of the number one guy. What was her role within that? Was she a quiet power behind the throne? Well, not quite, but power certainly. I mean, not even behind, next to him. Wow. When you look at her advice, so she advised him. We know at least on socials,

three directions. One is keep the family united, like respect your brothers, also treat your sons kindly. They have daughters, Genghis was, he was in love with his daughters, so he treated them super kindly, but he was harsh with his sons, not the first one, specifically all of them. So she was always behind saying no.

You really have to be generous with your sons as well and just be also understand them. They are young and everything. So that's one direction, family. The other direction is she was super intelligent and astute when it comes to alliance. And she was one of the first who saw that he had a problem with one of his first allies. It's a guy named Jamuhai. He's also a Mongolian.

They allied together when Genghis was young. But then at some point, it seemed clear that this guy was also a competitor. He was a challenger for Genghis. Genghis really had to split. You know, something has to be done. And she's there. In the text, you see she's there. And she said, no, you have to interpret what's happening. You have to be careful of Jamukha. And you have to split and protect yourself. And she's there saying this to her husband. And he listens to her.

So that's also nice. You know, you see, it's just, yeah. This is like a power couple, isn't it? Yeah. Very powerful. Yeah. And powerful also because she's also the brain. Not only like the mother was giving, you know, building up the lineage and the family, she's also a brain and very intelligent in political terms. And finally, regarding religion, she's one of the first who said to Genghis, okay, I'm

There's this powerful shaman. This guy is called Ted Tengri in the sources. So he's a powerful shaman and he's like a priest, you know, and he helps and supports Genghis, but it's super, it's becoming powerful, like too powerful. Right. And she says to her husband, you have to get rid of him. He's also becoming some sort of competitor for you. He's not helping anymore. Get rid of him. So, um,

And he follows one more time her advice. And that, I think, is a very important political decision at the level of the empire. So, yeah. So these are just examples, but you can see how she was also acknowledged by the people of the time as a political advisor for her husband and also somebody like a real brain, you know, in the situation. And sometimes Genghis get nuts and get, you know, fiery and upset about this.

songs about this and that. And she's not necessarily calm because she can speak harsh, but she says what she has to say. And she's very like...

and frank also. So she's depicted as such loyal to her husband, but also telling him like, you're making a mistake here, you know, and he listens to her. I just had this image of like Bertie in a nightgown with her hair in rollers first thing in the morning, just saying to Jango, oh God, he's off again, attacking the hordes. Get back here. What time are you going to be back? Don't be late.

That's really tickling me. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I think she's... When Genghis goes on campaign and leave the house and leave the camp, she has also her own world to rule and she's in charge. So when he leaves, he goes Central Asia, he goes China, she's in charge. And when he will die, actually, she's going to be in charge of a huge part of his hordes. So his warriors...

And she will also take care of his assets in many ways. So I don't know what was her feeling. I guess she's in love. She must be sad if he leaves, right? But at the same time, she's in charge, so she has work to do. I think she would be very active then. Clearly, she would stay a lot in Mongolia.

We have to add to this story that Genghis had other wives after her. I was just going to ask you about them. Yeah. Because one of the things that we looked at in the last episode was Genghis's reputation for sexual savagery and debauchery. And you were swift to point out there is no evidence, there's no mention of that in the sources, or at least there's no reason to suspect it was any worse than anywhere else. But he definitely had other wives. And how did Bertie deal with that? Yeah.

Yeah. And younger wives, probably. Well, I mean, there are different explanations. One is anyway, he has to make, at that time you make alliance. And when you make alliance, you sort of seal up marriage, new marriage. So it can be just a political decision. And this for sure would not affect the date. But

One of his younger wives, we think Genghis was, I mean, probably had some feelings for her. Took her with him when he was older during his campaign, probably in the early 1220s. At this point, we don't know about their marriage exactly, but we know that Berthe is a chief wife. So she's in charge with the other wives. She's in charge of all the other wives. She keeps many statues.

Our statues remain high. She's the only one we can give real hairs to the throne. So when Genghis is going to die, only a son from her and him is going to get the throne. It's not going to be a son from another wife. So I think it's sort of repair maybe what the, I don't know if she's hurt or anything. We have no idea, you know, her real feelings, you know. Maybe she had feelings for some other man. We have absolutely

No idea. We have to be honest with that. You know, we have just the official portrait, but it's clear she, there are statues women high until the end. And she would be in charge with the secondary wives.

The other thing is when Genghis died in 1227, she was in charge with a huge part of his, you know, as I said, his wires. We call them hordes. So his wires is some of his buildings, some of his, you know, treasuries, whatever. She's still there, you know, as a person.

but we have less sources, you know, and we don't even know when she died. I think it's important to say that we don't know when exactly, and we don't know where she has been buried. Maybe with him, but we don't know where he's buried. If you remember the discussion about Genghis, so there's a bit of a mystery also about Brutus, you know, at the end of her life, you know, where she went, what she did, where

Where she's buried, we don't know. But in the Mongol official cults, official sources, rituals, in 13th, 14th century, even up to today, she's a very respected character. She's a key person, you know. And there's no Mongol Empire without her. It's like Genghis and Berkut. It's not Genghis himself. Genghis himself, what? He would not have been able to build a lineage and...

and a family, right? So, and this is really clear. So, but we don't have portraits of Bertie. We don't know her face. You can imagine the, you know, fire in her eyes and, you know, a beautiful complexion. She was probably very energetic woman and something, but yeah, we don't have her portraits. Oh,

Marie, you've been wonderful to talk to. Again, thank you so much for dropping by to tell us a bit more about Bertie Kahn. That was amazing. If people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you? Oh, I think they can find...

and documentaries where I participated. And then I've been in Mongolia and trying to, you know, find more information about Genghis Khan and his family and birthday. So I think people can find me on the Smithsonian channel. I've been part of a documentary on Genghis Khan's Mongolia. And yes, of course, my book, The Horde, How the Mongols Changed the World, in which I say whatever I know about Mongolia,

Bertie and a woman in Gingy's family because they were so important. Thank you so much. You have been marvellous. Thank you. Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Marie for joining me. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like, review and follow along whatever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hi, then you can email us at betwixt at historyhit.com.

Coming up, we've got episodes on the darker side of Alice in Wonderland and the second episode in this limited series, which is about Eva Braun, the wife and confidant of none other than Mr. Shithead Hitler. All coming your way. This podcast was edited by Tom DeLarge and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer is Charlotte Long. Join me again betwixt the sheets, the history of sex, scandal and society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.

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