Jobs Data Key to Market Outlook Description:
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This is the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. Catch us live weekdays at 7 a.m. Eastern on Apple CarPlay or Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts or watch us live on YouTube. The world's changed and it's gone in the Neil Dutta direction. Neil Dutta joins us from Ren Mac now with an extended conversation. Neil, you've been talking about the slowdown. Did it begin at 8.15 yesterday?

Come on, Tom. I mean, you know me long enough to know that I wouldn't pin all my hopes on the ADP employment report. Okay, but there it was, moldy. What kind of claims number do I need to see to confirm your disrespected ADP report?

Well, I think the break-even level on claims is probably somewhere around 250,000 to 260,000. So we're getting awfully close. When I say break-even, I basically mean the cutoff point between jobs growth and jobs flat. So we're getting awfully close to some pretty soggy employment reports. And remember, you can use the JOLTS data

to kind of calculate what the break-even level on jobless claims is. And when I run the numbers, it gets me to around 260,000. So initial jobless claims are running about 240 right now. And I would just say that, look, I mean, anecdotally, it's really hard to think that the labor markets are fine.

Just look at the last week, Microsoft, Disney, and Procter & Gamble announcing meaningful layoffs. I mean, if every company is restructuring at the same time, that becomes a macroeconomic issue. So I do think that not only are layoffs going up, but what's more important is that the job finding rate

is really, really weak. And so that means that the well of unemployment will continue to build, you know, at least over the foreseeable future. Hey, Neil, we've now all had about 24 hours to digest that ISM data yesterday. I kind of feel like

Yesterday may prove to be an important day. We had the services index go into a contraction area. We had prices paid surge. We had new orders really, really decline well below 50. How do you put all that together yesterday? Well, I mean, it's true that the ISM does get a lot of weight in the marketplace, but it's also important to remember that, you know, the...

There are multiple ways to kind of skin the cat if you were in business economics, right? So we got a pretty soggy ISM services number, but we got a very strong S&P global services PMI, right? And it's important to kind of look under the hood and see what's driving these indicators, right? So, you know, the ISM services, believe it or not,

has a goods-producing tint to it, right? So it includes things like mining, utilities, construction, agriculture. That's in the ISM services number, right? Those are companies that are surveyed by ISM. The S&P Global is more of a pure services indicator, I would argue, and it has a larger sample size. So it's not immediately clear to me that services are falling off of a cliff in the way that the ISM is doing.

is implying. And you kind of just have to take all of these things sort of on board and put it into your process and just adjust accordingly. You know, the ISM tends to be more volatile. I mean, it's dipped below 50 previously, you know, back in late 2022. So, you know, I just...

Tomorrow is going to be more definitive, right? I mean, whatever happens with the jobs number, that offsets everything else for the week. And so that's sort of how I'm thinking about it. I mean, it's interesting to see some of these data points kind of stacking up in a more negative direction. And I will tell your audience that surprises tend to line up in the same direction, right? So if you get a weak ADP, a weak ISM, that tends to build up sort of towards...

the jobs number, but ultimately the jobs number will settle the score. We continue with Neil Dutta of Renmac, my economist of the year a few years ago, brilliant optimism amid the COVID gloom, a little more cautious maybe here over the last 12 months. We welcome all of you in your commute across America. Good morning on Apple CarPlay. Is that the way you roll in your, in your Bentley?

Sure, absolutely. You've got the Apple CarPlay going. Android Auto out with some new software. Congratulations, Google, on improving Android Auto each and every day on YouTube. Subscribe to Bloomberg Podcast. It's the way Neil Dutta partakes in what we do here each and every day. Claims in 16 minutes. Paul? Neil, the consumer. How's the consumer doing out there? We understand there's kind of a bifurcated consumer. Just how do you kind of

think about the US consumer going forward here? Well, Paul, as you know, I mean, I think the bifurcated consumer is like a constant trope on Wall Street, K-shaped. I mean, the high end's doing well as if that's not always the case. I mean, it's sort of, I think it's kind of senseless to keep talking about it that way. You know, ultimately, the story about the consumer is one of declining real incomes or slowing real incomes and limited savings to cushion

themselves from potential shocks, right? So that's the main story. Last year, you had about, you know, maybe 3% growth, a little over 3% growth in real consumer spending, which is a very strong number. But that was despite real incomes, none of transfers growing at about one and a half percent. So in other words, consumption grew twice as fast of real incomes, excluding transfers.

That means that people drew down their savings to jolt their consumption over the last 12 months. So even if you assume the savings rate is stable, given the ongoing weakness in the labor market, you should expect to see consumption slowing at a minimum towards the growth in incomes, assuming a stable savings rate. So that's what we expect. And that means that consumer spending is probably growing, you know, maybe one and a half percent, probably worse. And

you know, that on a trend basis, and that is consistent with below potential growth. - Scott Martin: So to get away from the Atlanta GDP number, which is a present snapshot, you're migrating, Neil Dutta, from a 3.5%, 4% OMG Atlanta GDP number down to something a lot more tepid, is that right?

Yeah, I mean, I think the Atlanta Fed numbers overstating the health of the economy. I mean, there's a lot of kind of, you know, how much build in is coming from the first quarter. I mean, how is this? I mean, remember, the Atlanta Fed is not a pure GDP bean count, right? Because it includes survey data like ISM services, not manufacturing, for example.

So, you know, that's why I say, I mean, if you focus on the labor markets, it gives you the sort of cleanest picture in terms of what underlying GDP is doing if you just look at total hours worked. So I think...

When you look at it that way, I mean, you're really talking about an economy that's growing below potential, and that'll mean upward pressure on the unemployment rate over time. - One final question. It's just as simple as this. Did the Fed's mandate shift yesterday at 8:15 or at 8:30 this morning, or with a vengeance, will it shift at 8:31 tomorrow?

Well, I definitely think that there is a, you know, the Fed has a modest dovish bias. I mean, if you look at their performance over the last number of years. And so, you know, my sense is that once the labor market begins to crack, they'll sort of stop worrying about inflation and start worrying about growth. And so, you know, given the way they're set up,

He sort of needs to see that before they can kind of pivot. But that's ultimately what I believe. So if you continue to see weaker sort of employment data, the Fed will sort of stop paying attention to what's going on with inflation and kind of capitulate in a way. Thank you, Neil Doughty. Greatly appreciate it. From Redback, thank you.

If this government spending in defense goes towards things like R&D that have dual-use civilian purposes, you could get spillovers that actually end up enhancing productivity in Europe and so have a more long-lasting impact on growth.

To learn more about the intersection of national security and global trade, subscribe to PGM's The Outthinking Investor in your favorite podcast app.

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You're listening to the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from 7 to 10 a.m. Eastern. Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app or watch us live on YouTube. We're going to have an informed conversation here. We could do that with a panache. Vishy Thirapathur joins us now, Chief Fixed Income Strategist at Morgan Stanley. Totally unfair, Vishy. I'm going to ask the first, you know, the first question that matters is a disinformation.

disinflation lower yield vector is it in place still do you do we just have the basic idea of a structural move to a lower rate regime or have you shifted on that so we we think it's it's a complicated picture tom and good morning and thanks for having me on uh i think it's a a little complicated picture we we have a view that the

the inflation in the immediate future, so the third quarter of this year, we will actually see inflation spiking as a consequence of once the effect of tariffs really begins to show up, we expect the core PC inflation to get to 4.5%, 5% by third quarter. And that prevents the ability of the Fed to be able to cut this year.

So unlike what the market is pricing today, market is pricing a little over two cuts in this year. We are expecting no cuts this year. And market is pricing roughly between two and three cuts next year. We think there will be a lot more cuts next year. We are expecting seven rate cuts next year. Wow. So the picture is a bit more complicated. Did you say seven?

Right. So cutting all the way down to 275. So we are our expectation of where the froth rate is lower,

But the timing is quite a bit different than what the market is currently. Tom, no rate cuts this year, seven next year. These Morgan Stanley guys are always stirring up trouble. They are. Anti-consensus calls. Vishy, so what do we do in the backdrop there? I mean, I'm looking at the two-year. We're now well below 4%. I got my 10-year. We're down to 432. How do you play the Treasury market at this point?

So what we are suggesting really is a steeper. So still our preferred trade. We do expect steepening to occur. We think that the maybe the at the moment tactically we would be neutral on duration, but we think

around the, as we go towards the end of the year, the market will begin to price in that the Fed would cut a lot more because the conditions for the Fed to cut in our mind are inflation should not be going higher. Inflation should begin to show signs of slowing, which we expect to happen early part of next year. We also think that the pace of huge off

WE WILL CONTINUE. WE ARE TWO MINUTES AWAY FROM SUDDENLY AN INTERESTING CLAIMS NUMBER, THE TWO SETS, THE ACTUAL CLAIMS NUMBER WITH THE REVISIONS AND THOSE CONTINUING CLAIMS WHICH MADE NEWS LAST WEEK. GIVEN YOUR INTEREST RATE OUTLOOK AND SOME OF THE ECONOMIC UNCERTAINTY THAT IS OUT THERE CERTAINLY AS IT RELATES TO GROWTH AND INFLATION, WE HAD SOME STARTLING DATA YESTERDAY.

Credit risk. Talk to us how you talk to your clients about credit risk. I would say reasonably constructive on credit. In a way, the way I would look at it is that we are calling for a meaningful slowdown in growth, but we are not calling for a, our base case does not call for a recession in the United States.

So we go from two and a half percent growth in 2024 to 1% growth in 25, 120% growth in 26. And if you look at the credit fundamentals, Paul, the credit fundamentals enter this cycle at this point in a pretty healthy stage. So if you look at leverage metrics, you look at interest coverage metrics, they don't look elevated. They don't show signs of excessive credit risk taking. Also,

If you look at the rate of upgrades versus downgrades, it's skewed much more in favor of upgrades.

So you put all these things together. You add some more technical factors, such as the emergence of a total yield-based buyer. You have a reasonably constructive outlook for high-quality credit. Vishy, I look at the 10-year inflation-adjusted yield. I know there's a number of ways to look at it.

But the answer is the real yield is coming in. Is that constructive for the Fed? Or is that the horse before the cart getting out in front of rate cuts?

So I think it is this quite doesn't reflect the effect of higher tariffs showing up in the inflation numbers yet. So when we when we start seeing the numbers, which we expect starting, you know, as soon as in this quarter, next month, numbers should begin to reflect the effect of the tariffs. So tariffs will be a pass through. So we as I said earlier, we expect to get the core PC numbers.

the inflation levels that the Fed cares about to get to 4.5%, 5% on an annualized basis, the three-month numbers annualized basis to 4.5%, 5%, which we expect to happen sometime towards the end of third quarter. And I think some of these, that will prevent the, sort of binds the hands of the Fed for cutting this year.

Vishy, we've got our friends down in Washington, D.C., trying to pass some tax legislation. And I don't know, whatever version you're looking at, it looks like they're penciling in a big increase into the deficits and debt. Does your bond market, does it care anymore?

I think maybe the bond market doesn't care about the projections for the 10-year timeframe because I think the bond market does care what the near term is going to be. So we would have said, say the one year, what happens in 2026? What would be the issuance requirements? What would be the composition of that issuance? Bond market does care about that. But

But I think where we are thinking is that the fiscal impetus coming out of this for the next year, amount of deficit addition is going to be roughly 300 billion. That's the number we are penciling in. I think that is something the market will care about.

Vichy, thank you so much. Really appreciate it. With Morgan Stanley, and as Paul mentioned, the idea of seven cuts in 2026. Stop the show there. Vichy Tirupatir, again, fixed income.

Julia Coronado right now, Macro Policy Perspectives. Julia, I thought we were going to walk through the interview, not

Incredible amount of information off the dual mandate. If labor breaks weaker, but we get some form of tariff inflation is a general statement. Every study I've ever seen is they're going to side on the inflation decision. Are they really going to decide on the labor economy? I don't buy it.

Well, it really depends, as Chair Powell has said, on the magnitude of the miss relative to their mandate. So right now we're starting from a point where we're at their full employment mandate by almost every metric.

And we're still missing. And as Powell said, we've been missing for four years on their inflation mandate. So, yes, in the near term, they are going to lean on the inflation mandate, hold their fire on rate cuts and wait and see as we navigate through this tariff shock.

which, you know, very, very likely will boost inflation at least in the near term, even if it does turn out to be a one-time change in prices. They're going to want to verify that. Trust but verify. So that means that the labor market has to really get a lot weaker and look quite recessionary before they cut rates. Tomorrow's jobs report at 8.30. Is that going to deliver, quote, a lot weaker? Yes.

No, I don't expect so. I mean, we have a 115K on nonfarm payrolls. That's a slowdown, but sort of a gradual one. And Tom, the complicating factor in interpreting payrolls in the next six months is going to be that we are implementing very drastically restrictive immigration policy.

And that, in economic nerd terms, lowers the potential growth rate of the labor market and GDP. We should expect to see less hiring because there is less labor supply. That's a sort of structural feature that it's not up to the Fed to offset with stimulus. So if we choose as a nation to have fewer immigrants, then we will have less GDP growth and less nonfarm payrolls.

that so we're going to have to really look at the unemployment rate as the arbiter of okay we're seeing a slowdown in hiring uh but but are we seeing the unemployment rate rise and i don't expect i have the unemployment rate holding at 4 2 which is still you know quite low by historical standards

Julia, looking back on yesterday's ISM data, I guess the headline was the services index dipped below 50, suggesting that maybe the services economy, again, 70% of the U.S. economy might be contracting. But you also had some data showing, I don't know, new orders plunging, prices paid kind of surging here. And then you look at today's initial jobless claims that came in higher than expected. Are we starting to finally see in the hard data

some of the uncertainty that's been unleashed by some of this tariff discussion yes i think the answer is a decisive yes to that um all of the april data came in soft we saw a decline in core retail sales we saw a decline in core capital goods orders we saw a decline in auto sales in april and may in the trade data that we got this morning the detailed report we are seeing confirmation that

A lot of the demand we saw in Q1 was pull forward ahead of tariffs, which means that we're in for a pothole in final demand in Q2. So, yeah, I think we are seeing confirmation that, number one, people did a lot of buying and spending ahead of tariffs.

So for example, one thing we got in the trade report today was a drop in technology imports. That was something that had really boosted investment in Q1. That will be a decline in Q2. So there's a little bit too much, I think,

built in that data centers can save the economy. And I don't think they can. Just so you understand, they don't have hopium in College Station. No. They have hopium in Austin, just so you understand. So, Julia, this once again, I guess I'll ask it this way. Does this once again raise the specter that this Fed will be too late?

I mean, I think that the Fed is constrained. So too late. You know, when we are making policy choices to kind of make the monetary and fiscal tradeoffs worse. Right. So we are choosing to expand the deficit. We are choosing to restrict immigration. We are choosing to instigate a trade war.

All of this makes monetary trade-offs worse. That's not the Fed's fault. They didn't make these choices. So are they going to be late? Well, they have to make sure. They don't know right now. Will the labor market stay resilient? We certainly have seen that in the last few years. Will we actually see the burst of inflation? They're going to just have to calibrate on the data. There's so many possible scenarios from here. Julia, quick, and you're just perfect for this. We see Canada...

terrible exports to America. And then there's a sentence by CIBC that they made it up with buoyant exports to UK and China. Do you buy the idea all of these troubled nations can find other venues for their exports if we shut the door? - I mean, they're going to have to find other venues.

I don't think that that's going to be a perfect offset because the U.S. has been the driver of the global economy for the last few years. So I think that this trade war is going to dent global growth. But I think most of our trading partners, including Canada and the U.K. and others,

do see this as a structural break. Like the U.S. is not going to return to its ally status that it was since World War II. We are choosing to turn away from allies and choosing to be an unreliable trading partner. And they will have to. I mean, you'd be foolish not to look to diversify your exports. Julia Coronado, thank you so much. Greatly appreciate it.

If this government spending in defense goes towards things like R&D that have dual-use civilian purposes, you could get spillovers that actually end up enhancing productivity in Europe and so have a more long-lasting impact on growth.

To learn more about the intersection of national security and global trade, subscribe to PGM's The Outthinking Investor in your favorite podcast app.

Thrivent can help you plan your finances for the people, causes, and community you love. What makes Thrivent different? Financial services and generosity programs are combined to help you build a financial roadmap for the future while also creating opportunities to give back along the way. Visit Thrivent.com to learn more. Thrivent, where money means more.

This is the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at 7 a.m. Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You can also watch us live every weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg Terminal. It's just a great conversation. Paul Sweeney is going to dive in here and lead it. It's real simple. In 1840, there was a huge famine in Ireland.

Many went to Canada, and many from Canada went to a nascent steel industry in Pittsburgh, including the Rooney family. Yep. And they will celebrate this. You know, the Rooney family, just iconic, Paul. The Steelers will play in Ireland. Ireland.

I know. That's really, really cool. Exactly. And that's important for both sides. Neil Richmond joins us. He's a minister of state for diaspora and international development for Ireland. Neil, thanks so much for joining us here. A lot going on out there on the geopolitical front. I'd just love to get your perspective, the perspective of the Irish government, of how it's

dealing with a lot of trade uncertainty just globally here. What's the perspective of Ireland these days? I suppose I'd like to say two things in that regard. First and foremost,

We are going to every length possible to stress how rich the trade investment relationship is, not just between the EU and the US, but particularly between Ireland and the US. Ireland is the sixth largest investor in the United States. There's more Americans employed by Irish companies in the US than there is Irish people employed by American companies in Ireland. But it's a really strong relationship. The US is our largest trading partner. It's a really strong basis in terms of life sciences sector, in terms of agri-food, in terms of tech.

But in terms of how we respond to this period of instability, to be quite frank, and we welcome any pause in relation to tariffs, is we're working with our European partners to make sure that the European response to any pronouncements or decisions is measured, is reasonable, that protects business, and more importantly, that strengthens, if anything, the trading relationship between the EU and the US. Let me be very, very frank. Tariffs are a bad thing.

They're not good for our economies. They're not good for our companies. But crucially, they're not good for the consumers, either in the United States or in Europe. People shouldn't be having to pay more for their drugs or for medicines or anything else in this regard. So that's the approach of the Irish government. We want to work on a bilateral basis, on a European basis. But crucially, we're also working not just at a federal level, but at a state level, which is why I spent the last couple of days in Pennsylvania and Massachusetts.

So you mentioned, Neil, the pharmaceutical companies' strong presence in Ireland. What are you hearing from the pharmaceutical companies with bases in Ireland at the moment? Yeah, we're very lucky that 14 of the 15 largest pharmaceutical companies in the world have either their European or EMEA head offices in Ireland. And we're working really strongly with them to make sure that they are able to weather any uncertainty that their commitment to the European and American market is strong. But I'll be quite frank, they are worried about

They're worried that the decisions being taken elsewhere might limit their ability to grow their markets. And more importantly, what we're very, very worried from an Irish government point of view is we have a huge pipeline of expansion and modernization of some of the plants that are in Ireland, new drugs coming on stream, new devices coming on stream. But the hesitancy in the American situation means that those bases aren't possible to go forward in the near term.

And Neil, you mentioned the strong relationship between the U.S. and Ireland from a trade perspective. In fact, Ireland's surplus with the U.S. is one of the largest. And I know Secretary Howard Lucknett has singled out Ireland in the past. How will Ireland respond to the extent that Trump really wants to put some pressure on Ireland specifically?

Well, I think one thing is when you take trade and goods and services, it's quite a balanced relationship. We know there's a huge surplus when it comes to goods and goods alone, but services together, it's really a balanced relationship. And our Deputy Prime Minister, our Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade, has met Secretary Lutnick a couple of times and we've spoken with him and we've really laid out that Ireland should not be seen as a rival to the United States. It's a complementary relationship. The vast majority in the area of

of pharmaceutical and life sciences. The vast majority of goods that are produced in Ireland actually are component goods that are finalized in the U.S. and then sold into the U.S. market. Neil, Paul from New York City emails in and he says, can you free up with your massive power with an Irish government

The Marion Hotel from September 24th to September 27th at $1,566 per night. Neil, can you free up a couple rooms there for us for the Steelers Vikings?

I can't even get a cup of coffee in the Marion Hotel. It's such a popular, wonderful venue. But what I will say to Paul from New York, I don't have a spare bedroom in my house. I've got a couple of young kids, but I know lots of wonderful accommodation in my district. There we go. Just in the suburbs of Dublin. Neil, tell me about real estate in Dublin. I look at it. I'm absolutely flabbergasted. Paul's looking at, you know, three, four bedrooms there. And it's like, you know, bono price, bono prices. It is tough. When does Dublin just the, it can't go higher, right, Neil? No.

Well, it can, and we've made a change there, which is really welcome. At the moment, the highest building in Dublin is 17 storeys, but we've just seen what's being constructed at the moment. We have our first building that goes past 20 storeys. So there was changes at a city level which removed the high cap

in Dublin city in the last couple of years. So we're seeing a lot of construction, particularly right in the city center along the river of high rise development, both in terms of office space and indeed commercial. So it is going up, it is becoming more dense and that's really welcome. But our

Our biggest concern from an Irish-going point of view is we need to go higher quicker. Neil Richmond, thank you so much. This is the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at 7 a.m. Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just say, Alexa, play Bloomberg 1130. One of my major faults, one is I don't do enough on municipal bonds, and the other is...

Retirement is a tragedy in America. We all know that. You don't need to be lectured by me on a Thursday morning. She is PensionBee in the United Kingdom and the United States. Rami Savova is CEO at PensionBee and joins us here from London in the studios. On your website, you got $57,912. That's what I got on my 401k. Whatever anybody's age is, I'll pick 42. It's not...

enough what percentage of people have 401ks where you state actuarially it's not enough i would say the vast majority although not enough will also depend on where you want to retire exactly how much you want to spend

But overall, what we see in the numbers is, generally speaking, the median person does not have enough. And enough, the way you do this is to put more aside, and the government is helping out sort of kind of like in that. What's the bogey, pension B, what's the number that I want to get to? Don't tell me it's 700,000. That's not going to get it done for John Tucker on the shore in New Jersey. And I'm not leaving the shore, just to be clear. Yes, John, he's there forever.

Well, it depends on how much you want to spend in retirement. But the median person has around $50,000 to $60,000 in 401k savings, and that will almost certainly not be enough anywhere. A lot of the research we've done shows that around 40% of Americans don't even have enough funds to retire for one year. And so there's no real simple answer. The best thing you can do is

Figure out how do you want to live when you retire? When do you want to retire? And then work backwards from there. And that will tell you how much you need to start putting in. You walk into any Starbucks in the United States and it's filled with people on laptops. I'm not sure what they're doing. I've been told they're part of the gig economy. What do those people do? Because they don't have the matching 401ks that...

a lot of companies offer, what did they do? Well, I think it's a huge issue. It's a huge problem. Studies now indicate that gig economy workers are around 50% and will soon be more than 50% of the entire workforce. Wow.

And they don't get the standard employee benefits that you would get in a big company. And so retirement provision is really left up to them. One thing that a lot of self-employed workers do look into is something called a SEP IRA. SEP IRA. Yeah. And that is something, it's a vehicle that gives you access to the ability to contribute substantially above the normal IRA limit. Definitely.

Denmark just went to age 70. I believe I got this right, folks. If I'm wrong on this, you can stay with me. It's part of the script. Denmark went to 70. Are we not in our retirement? What do you think, John? 72, 76? What do you think we ought to be going to? Here? Here? 80s? Oh, 85. Should we running this out to 80 years old? For some people, that is an economic reality. Yes, exactly.

What do you say to the politicians in Washington or in London about fix this? What's the number one thing they need to do?

Well, for the politicians in the US, the number one thing is to mandate automatic enrollment across the board and to find a way to mandate it for gig economy workers too. Sapphire, you know. Yes, because when we look at the numbers, only around 50% of workers are actually contributing. And the longer you leave it, the greater the shortfall.

This is great. Rami Savoieva, thank you so much. With pension, me, of course, there, all the good work of Peter Orszag, now at Lazard, and I think of Roger Ferguson at TIAA-CREF. This is the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast, available on Apple, Spotify, and anywhere else you get your podcasts.

Listen live each weekday, 7 to 10 a.m. Eastern on Bloomberg.com, the iHeartRadio app, TuneIn, and the Bloomberg Business app. You can also watch us live every weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg Terminal. This is an iHeart Podcast.