TikTok's Ban Upheld By SCOTUS
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And I'm Mike Shepard in Washington. This is Bloomberg Technology. And today's key story. The Supreme Court upholds the law that threatens TikTok shutdown in the United States. We get straight to breaking news coming from CNN reports that Trump will indeed make a decision on TikTok and even the White House saying that the TikTok action falls into the Trump administration, according to Reuters. Bloomberg's Ben Bain. This is all

all perfectly obvious in many ways, and the decision was as expected. But, Ben, take us to the letter of the law here. Ultimately, this cannot be distributed by the likes of the app stores, and it cannot be supported by Oracle and others.

So that's right. And I think in looking at the decision specifically, the court was very clear about the national security interest that Congress laid out in passing this law and President Biden signing it as being more important or the most important thing when considering whether to let this law stand or not.

versus the arguments that from a free speech perspective, TikTok is important. And certainly from a commerce perspective, for the whatever percentage of the 170 million Americans that use this app, they need to rely on it. So essentially, the Supreme Court

went ahead today and said, national security, this argument is justified here. And now it does fall to Donald Trump. And remembering back to his first term, this is a very different posture that he's taking here. He and his administration came out in favor of taking action against TikTok during his first term. And now we're seeing a very different position here. And we're going to see what happens Monday.

So, Ben, your team has been covering the TikTok legal saga for months now, ever since they filed their claim back in May. But the story is not over. Talk a little bit about how the reprieve might work under the law and what the Justice Department perhaps could do to hold back on enforcement, at least at first. Exactly. So effectively, now that this law is on the books, I mean, it was on the books, but now that it's

gonna stay on the books it falls to the executive branch and the president and certainly the Justice Department and Donald Trump's incoming Justice Department Attorney General to enforce it I will we understand is that Donald Trump very much wants to cut this deal he is said that he is in his brief that was a friend friend of the court brief filed a few weeks ago he said he's the person who can cut this deal once he takes office

So I don't think we're going to see any movement necessarily in the next few hours or the next day or two. But Donald Trump, once he comes in, has made clear that he wants to get this done. He wants to figure out a solution. And he thinks he can do it. Like he has expressed the ability and confidence in himself to do many things. This is one of them he thinks he can get done. So the next step is essentially whether a deal is going to get done.

the outgoing Biden administration and the incoming Trump administration have signaled they are not going to enforce this ban immediately. So we're not going to see January 19th, the Biden administration, Justice Department really taking any action. And we're not expecting to see the Trump administration do anything when they take office on Monday as well. Bloomberg's Ben Main, we thank you. But...

What could TikTok and ByteDance decide to do on the 19th? We turn to Bloomberg's Alexandra Levine for that. Alex, they could decide that we can't use it, and indeed the infrastructure might not be there to support it.

Absolutely. So we've seen reports that TikTok is thinking of just shutting the app off, making it go dark on its own. And we heard some references during the Supreme Court hearing last week to TikTok going dark. And it didn't quite make sense because we knew TikTok was never going to go dark immediately because once Apple and Google

and Oracle begin to stop hosting and distributing the platform, we knew that what it would be would be a slow deterioration for people who use the app, not an immediate going dark. What we've heard in reports though more recently is that TikTok may just shut the whole thing off come Sunday and that users who open the app may see some kind of a pop-up that directs them to a website to talk about the ban.

It's a really fascinating strategic move if that does come to pass because I think it would really mobilize 170 million Americans, which is roughly half the country, to be angry about this, to protest it, and then to, of course, demand action from Trump and his new team to do something about it.

Alex, those protests didn't succeed in getting the ban staved off back in March and April when it was going through Congress. Do we think they'll stand a better chance this time around with the incoming Trump administration, those kinds of appeals?

I do think these kinds of appeals could have more luck this time. You know, when TikTok mobilized its very dedicated base to call Congress right when the law was introduced to try to prevent them from passing it, it actually stoked lawmakers' fears even more about the potential for the app to create outrage, to create discord, to really anger lots of Americans. And it actually drove home the point for them that they needed to do something about the app.

In this case, now that Trump has campaigned on the app, he credits the app potentially with him reaching many young voters that he thinks move the needle for him. I think he's going to be a much more willing audience for any kinds of pressure. And we're already seeing creators who, for example, were live streaming outside the Supreme Court last week who are, you know, sending the message. Trump campaigned on promising that he would help us with the app, he would save it, he would resuscitate it. And now we're going to hold him to his word on that.

Bloomberg's Alexandra Levine, thank you so much. Let's bring in Gene Munster now from Deepwater Asset Management. Gene, talk us through what this means for all the competitors out there to TikTok. If you're an investor looking to trade this, it is murky. You have the Supreme Court upholding this ban, and yet you have Donald Trump saying he may give the company a reprieve. What is an investor or trader to do now?

Well, MetaTrader, at Deepwater, we own Meta. And as an owner of Meta, we're expecting that this ban is not going to be upheld. At the end of the day, this--even though despite what's happened with the Supreme Court, I think that writing is clearly on the wall.

TikTok is going to remain. And the big change wasn't about the Supreme Court. It largely doesn't matter. What matters is the tone on the Democratic Party. And I think that that speaks to what is a strong bipartisan support back in April, 82, 87 percent, the House and Senate support. Typically, a bill gets passed around 55 percent. So this is unprecedented

bipartisan support that is now shifting and I think that for an investor from investor standpoint I think that one piece is just for meta that we're expecting kind of a five up to a ten percent tailwind if they would have captured 50 75 percent of that time spent on an

Instagram Reels. And so I think I'll start there, Mike, as I think that that's from investor piece. There's another lesson here for investors that go well beyond what's happening with TikTok. And there's no other app in the world that I can imagine that could cause this kind of uprise. And the reason is it is the power of a strong product, an addictive product,

and the power of, I think, people, in this case, the power of that product influencing political decision. And so what does that mean for broader investing is that companies that have that leverage, and NVIDIA, for example, it's just really hard to displace.

Really interesting considering the pressure Nvidia is putting on the next set of potential laws coming its way to limit its selling abroad. Jean, this about face of lawmakers, this bipartisanship of against TikTok to now suddenly everyone wanting to see it continue, how does that materialize in the next few days? I know it's hard to discern, but Chuck Schumer, of course, minority leader in the Senate, saying we need to find a US buyer. What does that mean for the addiction of the algorithm with a new owner?

Well, first of all, I don't think it's going to, there will be a new owner. I think that ultimately what will happen is this is going to go back to some sort of House and Senate vote. And I think that it actually will, TikTok will be allowed to remain. I think that there's just that much political pressure. What we saw from Biden today was, I think, evidence of how strong that political pressure is. If I'm wrong, and there's ultimately a sale, that algorithm effectively doesn't change. I think the question wasn't whether or not from,

from a logistics standpoint, whether the algorithm would change, it's where does that data ultimately go. And so I don't think that that piece changes. Gene, we saw that Donald Trump spoke today with Chinese President Xi Jinping, whose blessing would be needed ultimately for any sale of the app by ByteDance. Do you see any buyers emerging, perhaps including Elon Musk, whose name has been floated in Chinese circles?

So if I'm wrong, and this does go the route of a sale, Elon's a buyer. I think there can be other constituents. You could see groups, potentially telcos involved with a sale. We've seen them start to venture into things like this. Of course, MegaCap, and maybe they've got some more room with a closer relationship that MegaCap has had with the Trump administration. So something along those lines.

those lines. And so, I mean, something will come up. It's worth probably $50 to $100 billion, somewhere in that range, which for these companies is a very doable ticket. So again, I think that TikTok users should rest easy because they're going to get their product, they're going to get to continue their product, whether it's in the current form or just under some new leadership.

Wow, up to 100 billion. Gene Munster, it's been great to have you from Deepwater Asset Management. Thank you. Coming up, as tech CEOs, they flock to Mar-a-Lago and then to the inauguration. How will industry policy change under the upcoming Trump administration? Jason Oxman is joining us from the Information Technology Industry Council. That's next. Meanwhile, keep a close eye on Intel shares. We digress from TikTok for but a moment. Shares rising after a report from a website called SemiAccurate.

and semi being, of course, about semiconductors. But it said the company will be potentially an acquisition target. This is Bloomberg Technology. 89% of business leaders say AI is a top priority, according to research by Boston Consulting Group. But with AI tools popping up everywhere, how do you separate the helpful from the hype? The right choice is crucial, which is why teams at Fortune 500 companies use Grammarly.

With over 15 years of experience building responsible, secure AI, Grammarly isn't just another AI communication assistant. It's how companies like yours increase productivity while keeping data protected and private.

Designed to fit the needs of business, Grammarly is backed by a user-first privacy policy and industry-leading security credentials. This means you won't have to worry about the safety of your company information. Grammarly also emphasizes responsible AI so your company can avoid harmful bias. See why 70,000 teams and 30 million people trust Grammarly at grammarly.com slash enterprise. That's Grammarly at grammarly.com slash enterprise.

Today, an oligarchy is taking shape in America of extreme wealth, power, and influence that literally threatens our entire democracy, our basic rights, and freedoms.

President Biden speaking from the Oval Office on Wednesday, taking aim at what he calls a tech industrial complex. While he didn't name anyone in particular, several of the biggest names in the industry have donated millions to President Trump's inaugural fund and plan, of course, to attend the ceremony on Monday. Bloomberg's Kayleigh Lyons is in Washington with more. And, well, one key partner of his throughout the campaign in donating millions was Elon Musk, and now many more follow suit. Kayleigh, who will be there on Monday?

Well, it's a laundry list, Caroline. A lot of wealth is going to be not just at the inauguration, but physically on the platform with Donald Trump as he takes the oath of office, seated next to the likes of senior members of Congress, cabinet secretaries, and even former presidents. Elon Musk, of course, who you're referring to there, the world's richest man, but the

Second and third richest men, according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, will also be there. Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos will be in attendance. Tim Cook, the CEO of Apple, also, according to our reporting, is planning to attend. One notable exception, maybe, is the CEO of NVIDIA, Jensen Wang. That's just a travel thing. He's currently in Southeast Asia. But by and large, this is going to be a who's who of big technology. And noteworthy, especially given the news today, the tick

TikTok ban being upheld by the Supreme Court. The CEO of TikTok, Xiuqu will also be at inauguration, though we've been told that he's just attending. He won't actually get one of those prize seats up on the platform. But that platform is going to be stacked with a lot of wealth. Just those three individuals, Musk, Zuckerberg, and Bezos together collectively have a net worth of nearly $1 trillion.

Kayleigh, with Donald Trump taking attendance in a way of making sure that all of these industry allies and billionaires are there in his court, what are they looking for from him in return? Well, you can take, for example, Tim Cook, because we've actually seen this in the first Trump administration. Apple would be highly susceptible to potentially problematic tariffs on things like China that would have drastic impact on the iPhone. So there are

policies in which they are hoping they might be able to avoid negative impact. And the same goes for social media companies. We've already seen Mark Zuckerberg taking action at Meta, reshuffling personnel, reshuffling policy, as well as they've stopped fact-checking or they're going to be pulling back on it. And we heard from President Biden in his Oval Office address there. Yes, he didn't name Mark Zuckerberg directly, but in his warning about

a burgeoning American oligarchy, he specifically referenced social media companies pulling back on fact-checking. So it was only so veiled. So a large part of this is trying to make sure that big tech can see its interests aligning with a president who has not been shy about targeting some of these companies in the past. Right.

Bloomberg's Kayleigh Lyons, thank you so much. Here with more on tech policy under the incoming Trump administration is Jason Oxman, president and CEO of the Information Technology Industry Council. Jason, thank you for joining us today.

Jason, we wanted to talk to you a little bit more about trade and your concerns there. This is something that your group has singled out as an area of priority and of concern. The Biden administration has put a lot of pressure in particular on China, but that has a ripple effect. Talk about that a little bit. What we're really looking for and enthusiastically looking for from the Trump administration is more of a strategy that takes advantage of

opportunities for U.S. companies to succeed internationally. Leadership in technology, that's what the U.S. is known for. And what we've seen in the Biden administration, unfortunately, is a lack of strategy, an inability to match the significant and serious national security interests of

with economic activity that promotes U.S. opportunities internationally. So on trade, our excitement and enthusiasm about the Trump administration is they're very focused on working in partnership to address the China question. And we've seen the president-elect already talk to President Xi about the strategy for dealing with that, about

moving forward, working together. What we want to make sure happens, U.S. technology leadership continues, the economic driver of the U.S. economy is technology, so we can make sure that trade becomes a real opportunity for further growth. Jason, do we not need, though, acts like a potential banning of a significant social media app that touches 170 million users?

to ensure national security. That was bipartisan in nature. And yes, Trump might come in and have a conversation with Xi about it. But ultimately, this was bipartisan in nature because of national security concerns. The TikTok news of the day is, of course, very interesting. And 170 million people are watching the outcome there. I don't have any prediction about what's going to happen on Monday at noon when President-elect Trump takes over. But it does highlight how

really difficult these issues are to address. And the larger question of how we address the China issue, I think is one that requires a real strategy. And what we're looking forward to, what the tech industry is looking forward to in the Trump administration, is he does seem to have more of a focus on making this a strategic approach rather than just a one-off approach.

For example, we saw earlier this week the Biden administration adopted rules around AI diffusion. So these are rules that restrict the ability of US companies to export AI technology, including to allied countries around the world. That's a huge mistake. It wasn't done in consultation with industry. We think the Trump administration will do a better job with that kind of issue.

But that's an example of the need to balance national security with economic interests and make sure that US leadership is not harmed by skewing too far in one direction or the other. That's what we're looking forward to seeing done differently in the Trump administration. And certainly Jensen Huang of NVIDIA's

maybe feel similarly and Nvidia pushed back significantly against that latest announcement. But what is interesting is that perhaps JD Vance has supported, well, some views coming from Lina Khan, for example, about some of the strength and the overall domination, some would say, of certain players in tech. Just listen to what Lina Khan said a little bit about the bipartisan nature of that.

There's no doubt that there is strong bipartisan concern about the economic power of large technology companies and how that can undermine fair competition, undermine people's free speech rights. And so we'll, of course, have to see what the next administration does. But it's certainly been an area of strong bipartisan concern during my tenure.

The FTC chair has some support, as I say, from vice president-elect. Will you see an enthusiasm around future M&A in technology, do you think?

Well, Lina Khan has about 72 hours left on the job and the person that the president-elect has designated to replace her has taken a much more balanced approach and we think a more favorable approach to advancing U.S. innovation. Look, the president himself is a technology innovator. He is surrounding himself by technology innovators who are coming into office, people who will be serving in crucial roles that understand the vital role that the U.S. technology industry plays in economic growth.

as far as trade and export around technology for example we want a three hundred billion dollar surplus in the u_s_ on digital trade that's exports of u_s_ technology around the world so i think as long as we can place regulators as president elect is looking to do who are willing to listen to industry and make sure that balances struck

between national security and economic growth, I think we'll be in a much better place for the next four years to ensure that the technology industry can work in partnership with government to advance economic growth. Jason Oxman, President and CEO of the Information Technology Industry Council, thanks so much for your time today.

We must return to the TikTok decision that came from the Supreme Court earlier today, standing by the law to ban or divest. The latest coming from President-elect Trump on Truth Social. Trump's saying that the TikTok decision will come in the not-too-distant future from him. He says he needs time to review the TikTok situation. Obviously, he's been promising.

to solve it. Bloomberg Intelligence Senior Analyst Mandeep Singh joins us now. And if I'm an Oracle and an infrastructure provider, if I'm Apple and I'm Google, the app providers, what do I do in this situation on the 19th? MANDEEP SINGH: I mean, given the liabilities of keeping the app up, you are going to shut it down, period. So the app will go dark.

The question is, what will President Trump do on day one? And my sense is, given all the tech executives are coming to his inauguration, they'll probably find a way to migrate that TikTok data to the competing platforms, whether it's YouTube or Meta. Because right now,

everyone is scared like they will suddenly lose all their business because all the followers and the content will go away. Well, guess what? If you can migrate that data to a meta or a YouTube, then you can potentially keep your business running. So that data aspect is huge. I think far too much focus has gone on the sale of the U.S. business. In this case, if you can migrate the data, even if there

you keep aside the algorithm. The data is huge because that's what I think everyone cares about when you talk to the creators and the people who consume the content. And I think the migration of data would be a huge factor when it comes to the future of TikTok.

Mandeep, we've seen Donald Trump present himself as the dealmaker, and he really would like to see this problem solved by selling it and finding a buyer. But that is no easy feat. Can you talk about some of the hurdles, including the cost and then who would be able to pay for it and then clear the national security hurdles? Yeah.

Yeah, look, there has been some private equity interest in the past, and obviously, Musk has been mentioned as a potential buyer, given his closeness with President Trump and also with the Chinese authorities. So clearly, there are

number of potential buyers, even the likes of Walmart and Oracle who have been mentioned in the past. So I can see a lot of companies being interested in acquiring an asset like TikTok, and you can see how sticky it is. I mean, all the millions of people who are using it clearly want the platform to stay. And that's where I think given the stickiness of the platform, finding a potential buyer is the most likely option I think President Trump is going to go with.

But at the same time, I think that data migration aspect is huge because that's going to solve probably half of the problem when it comes to the users of the platform. A lot of this, of course, takes ByteDance or indeed China's sign-off. Bloomberg Intelligence Senior Analyst Manneep Singh. And of course, a reminder of some of the investors in ByteDance that might benefit. Welcome back to Bloomberg Technology. I'm Caroline Hyde in New York.

And I'm Mike Shepard in Washington. Quick check on these markets. And Mike, we look at the ramifications of the highly anticipated Supreme Court decision on TikTok. They decide that the law stands, that it has to be banned or divested. And ultimately, it doesn't have much of an effect.

on some of the competitors that were meant to be most implicated by potentially a TikTok ban. Meta platforms up six tenths of a percent. Alphabet currently up 1.8 percent. I'm looking at Snap, though, off by 1.7 percent, which has been one of the most volatile stocks in relationship to TikTok's remaining in the United States. Everyone now waiting with bated breath as to what lawmakers do, what Trump does. He takes to Truth Social, of course, to say a decision is imminent.

Let's get more from Bloomberg's Kurt Wagner because the Supreme Court leaves it up to the lawmakers and there's a lot of them we've got to watch, Kurt.

There are, and there is so much that's going to happen over the next 72 hours, Caroline, because while the Supreme Court did uphold the law, this was something that we all expected, right? Now the ball is essentially in Donald Trump's court. So the ban should kick in Sunday. He said, I'm looking for ways to get around this. Everyone expects that there will be some type of executive order once he takes office to try and delay this, maybe give TikTok more time to find a buyer. But of course, TikTok says they don't want a buyer. So

There are so many sort of unique elements to this thing. I think it'd be a little premature to say anyone knows exactly what's going to happen over the weekend and into the inauguration day. But this was one thing that is at least now off the table, the idea that the Supreme Court could save TikTok. And we can now focus on the other options, which, again, mostly center around Donald Trump.

And those options on Donald Trump, Kurt, really do center, as we were just discussing, on finding a buyer. We did see one, Frank McCourt, the billionaire behind the Project Liberty proposal. Do they have the energy and wherewithal to pull that off? We know that his partner, Kevin O'Leary, was at Mar-a-Lago to talk to Trump about TikTok.

They do have the energy. Certainly they've been out talking about this for a long time. We spoke with Frank McCourt in our Bloomberg offices just a few weeks ago, and he was very optimistic that they could get a deal done. I think the question is, does ByteDance want to play ball, right? I think everyone on sort of the U.S. government side of the fence wants a deal to get done because that is what keeps TikTok around. Certainly President Donald Trump wants a deal to get done. It's really up to will ByteDance and the Chinese government –

you know, say, yes, we are willing to sell to a Frank McCourt or someone else. And I think that's the much larger hurdle that needs to happen here. I don't think it's for lack of interest or energy on the Frank McCourt side. I think it really comes down to does ByteDance see Frank McCourt as a valid acquirer of this asset?

Bloomberg's Kurt Wagner, thank you so much. Now let's bring in Sarah O. Lamb for more. She is a senior fellow at the Tech Policy Institute here in Washington. Sarah, what do we take in terms of the long term from this decision? What kind of a lasting impact on jurisprudence with respect to tech and content can we take from it?

Well, it was really interesting reading the opinion which came out this morning at 10:00 a.m. It was a per curiam opinion, which means it's for the court, with two concurring opinions attached, one by Justice Sotomayor and one by Justice Gorsuch.

They decided the case on the merits, on the First Amendment question, and they found that the ban survives intermediate scrutiny, it's constitutional, and Congress has valid content-neutral reasons for regulating TikTok. So they first go through, is it a First Amendment question properly before us? And they say yes.

And then they go through the First Amendment analysis, finding that the law was facially content-neutral, it was justified by a content-neutral rationale, that TikTok...

a claim, but that under intermediate scrutiny, the law is valid. So this decision will be part of the canon or part of the First Amendment jurisprudence. And Justice Gorsuch even said he feels uncomfortable that the court is making such a big decision based on a handful of days of trial.

deliberation, but that it's narrow enough that they issued a per curiam opinion and they all are in agreement. Sarah, they're in agreement that national security was the key here and that ultimately First Amendment rights stays if you're able to find a different buyer. It's mainly the issue of who owns the parent company of

who owns TikTok and indeed how close ByteDance is to China. So what next? How can you alleviate that national security issue? Would it have to be a U.S. buyer? Is there any way that we cannot see it divested? Right. Well, that's a really good observation. Nothing else has changed. So Congress has made a determination. The president five years ago even raised questions about China being a foreign adversary and having impact on the algorithms.

So even the prediction markets are looking at, well, will the ban be in play in May 2025? So, you know, how much can really change? Will there be changes in their systems, in their ownership structure? That's all still to be determined.

but the concerns are still there. There was strikingly bipartisan support by Congress. No legislator really disputed the national security risks. So those are all still there. - But now they're changing their mind. There seems to be a complete about face. Everyone wants to ensure that on the 19th, poof, we don't suddenly lose TikTok. Sarah, we're also seeing the user base flock to other Chinese run companies. Lemonade is owned by ByteDance. We're seeing RedNote,

becoming a key focus. Is that going to be a concern? Is that a national security issue? Isn't it ironic? I think it's interesting and it is kind

a political, popular culture moment where American policymakers have to make the case to American young people that social media apps that are made here in the U.S. are preferable, but really they're competing on stickiness. The apps are sticky. TikTok is fun to be on. So if

anything, there might be implications for American policymakers to be more sympathetic to American companies building social media apps. Sarah, how does this fit into the broader game between Washington and Beijing when it comes to trade and technology policy? Does this become, if a sale goes through and China approves it, does this become a point of leverage for Xi Jinping and his dealings with Donald Trump? We saw they spoke today.

Yeah. Well, TikTok and the sticky apps, they're definitely a feather in their cap. China's very good at making these apps. And so it would be surprising if they let ByteDance divest. I mean, if I were them, that's a very strong point of leverage. But President Trump is good at negotiating a deal. And so there are private buyers as well.

What could happen is they could buy the TikTok brand and rebuild the whole infrastructure. It would be a different app, a different stack, but it would still have presumably the same social graph that TikTok has, but not the source code that makes it so sticky. It raises the question of where are the American competitors? Like,

Caroline mentioned Snap earlier, Snapchat, threads. Why are these apps not getting all the traffic that might come off of TikTok? So I think it's a good moment for Americans to think about, well, why don't we have a TikTok that's homegrown? Can we have one that's better built? And let's keep Americans happy on American apps. I think

I think that is a presumption that maybe all the scrutiny of social media companies has maybe lost. I mean, there's a balance between, you know, regulating and warning of dangers, but then there's also this competition that's going on. So I think it's an interesting moment.

We're going to have a new competitor, Clapper, Texas-based, joining the network a little bit later. Sarah O'Learn, Senior Fellow at the Tech Policy Institute. Great to have your take today. Thank you. Coming up, shifting gears to SpaceX and Blue Origin, both facing some setbacks during their most recent launches. More on that next. This is Bloomberg Technology.

89% of business leaders say AI is a top priority, according to research by Boston Consulting Group. But with AI tools popping up everywhere, how do you separate the helpful from the hype? The right choice is crucial, which is why teams at Fortune 500 companies use Grammarly.

With over 15 years of experience building responsible, secure AI, Grammarly isn't just another AI communication assistant. It's how companies like yours increase productivity while keeping data protected and private.

Designed to fit the needs of business, Grammarly is backed by a user-first privacy policy and industry-leading security credentials. This means you won't have to worry about the safety of your company information. Grammarly also emphasizes responsible AI so your company can avoid harmful bias. See why 70,000 teams and 30 million people trust Grammarly at grammarly.com slash enterprise. That's Grammarly at grammarly.com slash enterprise.

Grammarly. Enterprise-ready AI. With Amex Business Platinum, your dental clinic can really sparkle. With a flexible spending limit that adapts with your business, that's the powerful backing of American Express. Not all purchases will be approved. Terms apply. Learn more at AmericanExpress.com slash Amex Business. What is this? Oh, it's not! It's crazy! Like, what is this? I don't know what's going on!

Footage taken of SpaceX's Starship rocket exploding in the sky just minutes into its seventh test flight. This didn't worry founder Elon Musk, writing on X, quote, this is barely a bump in the road. For more Bloomberg's Lauren Grush joins us for more. And Lauren, they did make that extraordinary catch of the super heavy booster. So steps being made, not totally up and to the right though.

Yeah, the weird part of this entire test launch is that they actually achieved their secondary objective, which was to make that catch. But then the actual main objective of the flight, which is to test out Starship in space, it got cut quite short, which is unexpected given the steady progress that they've been making on these flights over the last couple of years.

Lauren, we didn't see too much gnashing of teeth from SpaceX or from Elon Musk. They really seem to, as he called it, as just a bump in the road. Talk about their approach toward things like this. When things don't go their way, do they just go back to the drawing board? And there is even no change in their launch schedule.

Yeah, absolutely. This is kind of all about, you know, SpaceX's culture and how they like to test. They like to fly frequently. Sometimes they'll break things while they fly. They learn from those moments and then they go back and they change and make updates and fly again rather quickly. They're a bit of an outlier when it comes to the space industry for doing this. You know, a lot of other companies...

and even NASA are a bit risk averse, but for them they embrace this risk. And so for them it's really a learning experience. It definitely, I would say, was unexpected just given the steady progress that they've been making. This is their shortest test flight, I think, since the first couple that they did a few years back. So we weren't really anticipating an explosion like this. Blue Origin, making steps forward?

Yes. It's speaking of, it's been a wild week on the space beat for us. Space reporters, please have mercy on us. So, uh, the morning of the starship launch, uh,

Blue Origin's New Glenn launched for the very first time on its debut flight. And unlike most rockets, it did achieve orbit on its very first launch attempt, which is a very amazing accomplishment for the company. They did try to land the rocket after the flight. SpaceX has perfected with its Falcon 9. Unfortunately, it did miss the landing on the barge at sea that it was targeting.

But the fact that it made orbit on its first attempt is definitely something that Blue Origin should celebrate. Bloomberg's Lauren Grush, thank you. Turning to defense tech, the sector is also facing major investment as geopolitical and isolationist risks rise. Here's what Anduril founder Palmer Luckey told us yesterday about a potential conflict with China when he announced a new plant in Ohio.

The types of threats the United States is facing, that our allies around the world are facing, the fact that we are predicted to run out of munitions within the first eight days of a potential conflict with China, mean that we need to hyperscale our manufacturing of these types of weapons systems. But why Ohio? Was this the only state that could guarantee that timeline? I think that they were the state that gave us the best shot of hitting that timeline.

For more on the defense tech sector and some of the top names to watch this year, Bloomberg's Lizette Chapman joins us now. Lizette, you've done some really great reporting here, trying to find just a few of the key names to watch. Maybe rattle off a few and then tell us a little bit more about how big this universe of defense tech companies is.

Absolutely. Well, it's just getting started. I mean, talking with Lauren, she mentioned probably the granddaddy of them all, SpaceX, which has proven that companies can and will continue to secure or can secure these contracts, big contracts.

and its market cap is twice that of Lockheed Martin. Palantir also has a market cap now that is bigger than Lockheed Martin and Raytheon. What we have now is a bunch of startups and we just

you know, culled it down to 10 on the list that focus on things that will have an impact on war, like things like hermias, which specializes in hypersonics, the ability to travel five times the speed of sound. You know, we've got epirus, which specializes in high-powered microwaves that can shoot drones out of the sky as many as 100 or more. You know, we've got other ones.

on the list as well that are spanning a lot of different areas that are redefining warfare. What's interesting about this list, though, if you look at it, all of these have been started within the past, say, six, seven, eight years. So these companies are at the size now that maybe a Palantir and a SpaceX were a decade ago. So these are kind of the up-and-comers, and certainly there's some other ones as well. But the timing and route to maturity is something to watch. And real now worth $14 billion.

scale AI that isn't on this particular graphic at the moment, all about AI, the data behind warfare here. It's worth $13.8 billion. What's interesting is the diversification where these companies are being built, Lizette. Can you tell about where there is a home for defense tech or is it really sprawling?

You nailed it right there, Caroline. It is very much sprawling. With Ed's conversation with Palmer yesterday, he asked, why not build Anduril in California? Was that ever on the list? Palmer said there was a 0% chance, and he rattled off a bunch of reasons why. They're not the only ones that are looking at the high cost of

living the high cost of energy, some regulatory issues, etc., that are driving other companies to operate in other areas, including like Hermias is in Atlanta, for example. You've got Rebuild in Massachusetts. They are diverse. There are new hubs developing Firefly, of course, is in Colorado. I see that out there on the screen. It is diverse, and they are looking to create a number of

of new tech hubs that are focused on defense. An amazing 10 to go get our claws into, and there's plenty more out there, as you say, that you continue to report on, as Ed Chapman, on the defense tech you need to know about.

Turning back to TikTok, one of the groups most impacted by the ban or potential ban is creators. For more on this, we're joined by Courtney Spritzer, co-founder and CEO of Social Flights, a marketing agency focused on social media. In particular, you're building and developing strategic partnerships with certain influencers. What's their reaction to a potential going dark on Sunday?

Yes, there is a lot of anxiety around this. There are tons of creators who really rely on TikTok for partnerships with brands, for affiliate marketing, for selling their own merchandise on TikTok shop. So I think a lot of creators are on the edge of their seat waiting to see what's going to happen on Sunday.

and they're also making a lot of preparations for what they're going to do if there is a ban. Yeah, they've been diversifying, pointing users onto new forms of social media or indeed older ones such as Reels, for example, and Instagram. I'm interested though, the advertisers, the marketers you talk to, what do they do? They've spent money, they've committed to be putting their brand on this particular platform. If they can't access them, do they get money back? What's their risk analysis right now?

Yes, all marketers and advertisers are definitely planning for what will happen after Sunday. So essentially what will happen is they may shift those advertising dollars to other platforms. I think a lot of people are taking a wait-and-see approach. The news keeps changing constantly.

day over day. So we're really going to have to see what happens on Sunday. But everything that we're talking to, all of our clients, we're all making preparations. We're just hearing and seeing here how potentially Instagram-based spending boosted the most. Facebook does well. YouTube.

I'm interested about some of these Chinese competitors we're all now hearing of. Red Note is colloquially known here in the United States. Lemonade, of course, is also owned by ByteDance, so an issue. But any advertisers, any marketers looking at spending there? Yeah, it's possible. I think as marketers, we're always looking to see all of the channels that are available and where our audiences are spending their time. So we're definitely considering it. But those platforms, too, will likely face the same challenges that we're facing.

now with TikTok. So I think everyone is being very cautious, making their backup plans, and we're having constant conversations with our clients so that we're keeping them up to date minute by minute on what's going on. Brands have seen TikTok in such a different light, the way in which that you can become a trend overnight without even really planning to or indeed starting to plan to and being strategic through companies such as your own. How

How are they going to navigate the changing nature of trending and ensuring their brands get to the right people at the right time? Yes. So that is the nature of the business that we're in. These social media platforms are constantly evolving. And we always advise creators and influencers to not put all of their eggs in one basket and to...

rely on certain social media platforms for their incomes. So what a lot of creators are doing outside of signing petitions to make sure that TikTok stays intact is diversifying and going to other social media networks. They're also building up their own owned platforms. So that would be making their own websites, building their email list so that they can reach their followers and

outside of specific platforms, which is really, really important to always have a diversified approach, especially when it comes to relying on platforms that you just don't own. And is that the lesson here? Look, we're always shifting, we're always moving, we're always finding the latest, greatest thing.

Yes, that is the major lesson here is that the reality is if you are building your business or you're following on a specific platform that you do not personally own, you're always going to have this risk. We see this happen a lot. Sometimes these...

Platforms face outages and you don't have access to post at certain specific times. So it's always really important to own your audience. And you can do that by collecting emails, diversifying your channel base and figuring out ways to reach your customers and your audiences on other platforms. Socialfly co-founder and CEO Courtney Spritzer, busy day for you. Thanks for joining us out of Miami. Now that does it.

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