Karan Deep Singh and Carlos Martinez on India's COVID Crisis and Protests in Cuba
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Welcome to Broken Potholes with your hosts Sam Stone and Chuck Warren. Fantastic and packed show for you today. Our first guest from the New York Times, and thank you so much for being here, Karan Deep Singh, reporter for the New York Times, talking about COVID, the wave that is going through India right now. Very underreported here in the U.S. He's been doing some of the best work on this subject.

and really an unbelievable human tragedy that's been unfolding. Chuck, I know you want to jump in with some questions, so take it away. Thank you for joining us, Karan. Question. So the Center for Global Development, Washington, D.C. research think tank, estimates now that there's an excess of 3 million deaths in India due to COVID. A, do you believe these numbers? And B, does India have a plan to get better at this?

Well, India's official numbers have been called into question repeatedly. And this has happened over and over again. Experts have said that India itself is not reporting the true pandemic toll. They say that the numbers don't really add up because

the tragedy that's unfolding in India when you have 400,000 cases. They've been saying that according to the numbers that they have calculated for India, its population,

And for a virus circulating, especially with the highly transmissible variants that India has been seeing lately, they expect many more deaths. And this is something my colleagues and I have been reporting pretty much since the pandemic began.

at the very height of the second wave in India, we were seeing all kinds of reports of states calculating much less deaths than were actually occurring. The funeral homes were full of dead bodies and yet many funeral officials had to report

only a certain number of deaths every day. And they would sort of mention the rest of the deaths as they would just say illness, or they would say somebody died of a heart attack, but not mention that they died because of COVID. And this is at a time when thousands of people are dying of COVID. So experts say, well, all of these other deaths that have probably taken place, they've happened because of COVID.

Right. India. So India has about a 7% vaccination rate. Is that correct? Less than 7%. Less than 7%. So how does India expect to hit their goal of immunization of 900 million people by the end of the year? I mean, we're almost in August.

Well, it's going to be very difficult for the government because of not just how many people are lining up each day for vaccinations, but also because they're only vaccines that India has. And even with the world's largest vaccine made at its disposal,

India has not been able to vaccinate people at the speed and scale it was really hoping to do. And that's because India sort of miscalculated initially in the pandemic how many vaccine doses it really needed. Unlike the US and Britain, and these are of course much more wealthier countries than India,

They signed advanced purchase agreements of millions of doses. But India waited until January to really place some of its initial orders for vaccines. But also because there was a phase in India, like early this year in February,

cases were plateauing and the government felt that India had really had the pandemic under control. They didn't need as many vaccines. So they actually went out and they started giving out vaccines sort of as a gesture of goodwill.

And it was really aimed at diplomacy and enhancing India's stand in the global community as a global partner in the vaccine effort. But quickly that fell through because India had a steep rise in cases in March, and then

India's government had to stop exports of vaccines. But even after they've stopped the vaccine exports, there's not been as much vaccination because there are only as many doses at this time. So real quick, I want to ask one follow up to that and then go back to the previous point about maybe the undercount and what's going on there. But is there help on the horizon from the international community? Is there any kind of brewing international effort to

to get more of the vaccines, to perhaps get health care workers who can administer them and those types of resources to India. Have you heard of anything like that? Yes.

Yes, India has been getting help from a lot of countries. Initially, when the COVID second wave hit, India was getting not just vaccines, but all kinds of help in terms of oxygen generators, oxygen cylinders, oxygen plants. Countries were really sending all kinds of aid. And

And lately, yes, there have been more vaccines that have come through international agreements, and some of that has been donated by countries.

But the struggle that India sort of finds itself in is that it's even with all of that help, it's sort of a drop in the ocean. And especially because of the population. But also because in India, there was this phase in between when people felt that there was

you know, that the pandemic was sort of over. Let down phase. Yes. And the government gave that impression. Prime Minister Modi himself said in late January in Davos that India had saved humanity from a big disaster by containing the pandemic.

India's former health minister, who stepped down earlier this month amid anger over the government's COVID response, had assured the public in March that the country had really reached the pandemic's end game. But all of those statements were quickly brought and checked by the second wave that really devastated the country

And hundreds of thousands of people were, you know, turning a positive each day. Thousands of people were dying. Some people were dying outside hospitals without any care. They were really just gasping for air on the streets. And there was no help. There was no oxygen that they could get.

Well, I think most of our listeners don't know. I think most people don't know, period, is that, you know, there's a central and state governments in India and they're squabbling. How is this holding up efforts to do immunizations, caregiving for hospitals? How much is there really squabbling going on between the central government and the states?

Well, initially during the pandemic, the government of India was the sole buyer of all vaccines that India was administering. But quickly that sort of had a reality check because there were not as many vaccines available and there was just so much need because of the second wave that everyone needed vaccines.

a vaccine. And India quickly realized that there was that was not going to be possible, that every other country in the world requires vaccines and India is no different. So there was only

as much vaccine that India could really get its hands on. So there was a time in between when the state governments were asking the central government for more vaccines and the central government really didn't have as many vaccines. So they

they asked states that if you want to go and source your vaccines, you're free to do that. And that was sort of a surprising move. It's unheard of for vaccine manufacturers to deal with separate states.

in a country. So a lot of vaccine makers said, well, we won't deal with you. We would deal with the central government. The states reported back to the central government and said, look, we're not able to get the doses. So this led to heavy criticism of the government's vaccine strategy. And over time,

Prime Minister Modi's government had to really come back to its original plan of securing all vaccines on its own. We've only got two minutes left here, but I wanted to ask one more question. India obviously does not have the medical infrastructure that people are familiar with here in the United States or in much of Europe.

And with these vaccines, the storage, the transport, all these things logistically are very difficult. And I think people around the world here in the United States, everywhere else, have sort of overlooked that element of the vaccine rollout that it –

Just manufacturing all these vaccines is a Herculean task, but then all the distribution network, everything else. How much is that hampering India right now, and how much of a concern is that for other countries with less developed medical systems?

There was a big concern early on in the pandemic and even now that India was not really using all of its resources to give out vaccines, you know, even for a country of 1.4 billion people.

India has a system of immunization that it has used over time and it has really used it well. It has immunized people against a lot of other diseases that a lot of Western countries haven't been able to do. I apologize. We're going to have to go to break and I have to cut you off here. I want to thank you so much for being on the show with us today. It is a pleasure to have you on here.

And for those who are not following Kanaan Deep Singh in the New York Times, please do, because this is really important information you're not getting anywhere else. Broken Potholes, coming back.

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Visit GoDaddy today to kick off your 2022 campaign right. Welcome back to Broken Potholes. I'm your host, Sam Stone. Chuck Warren, my co-host in the studio with me today. On the line, a reporter we are very excited to talk to, Carlos Martinez of the Miami Herald. He has been covering what's going on in Cuba. This is really interesting.

pretty historic what's happening right now. It's very different than perhaps past protests. And I don't think most of the American public is really even aware of it. So, Carlos, thank you for being on the show, first of all. And then tell us what happened. What started this? What's happening?

Okay guys, well thank you for having me here. It's been a pleasure. So, an overview of what is happening right now in Cuba. On July 11, unprecedented protests took place in Cuba. Finally, thousands of people took the streets and began to shout for freedom and call for a change of system. The protests started in the area of the western part of the island called San Antonio de los Baños, and from there they began to spread throughout the island.

People were protesting peacefully until the president, Miguel Villas-Canel, gave the order to fight the protesters. At that moment, the violence began. Military, paramilitary, paramilitary are these people who dress in civilian clothes and defend their region. They took the streets to live with mittens, bolts, rocks, and fire weapons, the people that were protesting peacefully.

Because in Cuba, the people, they don't have arms, they don't have weapons. So according to what the people from Cuba have told me so far, some videos can be seen on the Internet, the regime forced young people of 16, 17, 18 years old, which is considered in Cuba like the military age, to take the street and fight against the protesters.

Wow. When you're arrested, do you just plain disappear in Cuba?

That's right. When you are arrested in Cuba, we have read various stories... Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. I came when I was 17 years old. I was going to start a journalism in Cuba, but I came in that specific moment. Okay. So right now, Cuba's doing arrest. They're taking these protesters. Explain to our audience, what happens once you are arrested in Cuba for protesting? What happens? Oh.

Well, the people right now are getting beaten. And inside those police departments, they're getting naked. People start telling them bad words. They arrest them sexually. You don't have the right to defend yourself. You don't have the right to have a lawyer. You don't have the right to talk to your family. That is happening right now in Cuba when you get in jail.

And right now there are people who their families haven't known from them in two weeks. This is just amazing to me because Cuba should be, without this totalitarian regime in control of it, Cuba should be one of the most wonderful places on the planet, one of the most economically successful places on the planet. And this regime has really, really...

just oppressed its own people for generations now. And they're rising up. They have no guns. It's like you said, they don't have any weapons. They don't have anything to really fight back with. And they know that this stuff you just talked about is happening to them and they're doing it anyway. That's just amazing. And I think it speaks to the character of the Cuban people as

Because, you know, you see this around the world. People are not willing to take that step and put themselves at risk. It's incredibly admirable, but it's incredibly sad. How is this for all the Cuban families living in Florida, knowing that many of their relatives may be at risk in this? They're not able to communicate with them. It's a really heartbreaking situation for everyone.

Yeah, well, in that case, for that reason, the QAnon exile is asking Joe Biden to first free the Internet for the people, right? Because in Cuba, the people, the Internet is owned by the government, right? So they can cut off the Internet like that. So you can be without communication with your family because the government of Cuba wants that.

So that's the first thing they're asking to Joe Biden. Second thing they're asking is to judge and sanction the Cuban regime, what he's doing to the people in front of the world. And the third, that's specifically the Cuban people on the exile. And some people also from Cuba that are being asked for it is a humanitarian intervention, which is

As I said, Cuban people, they don't have weapons, so they don't have a way to fight back. They're shooting at the people with a weapon. So they're asking for a humanitarian intervention right now. Or, in another case, there is a law, it's called 68-67, that doesn't allow Cuban boats from Florida to go to Cuba.

So we can fight for our people. That's the point what people are asking for right now here in South Florida. Has the Cuban government stopped remittance from family and friends in the United States to Cuba? How is that being affected right now? Well, they haven't. Right now, Joe Biden, he's trying to find a way so people can send more remittance to Cuba.

Also, without the government being in the middle of that negotiation with the Cuban people. But what is happening right now, the people of Cuba, they are not asking for anything. They were asking for freedom. And congresswomen, congressmen like Marco Rubio, Mario Villasalazar, Díaz-Balart, they have said that a million times.

They'll be asking for freedom, not for renaissance. Because they are tired of getting renaissance for another country. They just want to develop by themselves. Do you think, and obviously this is a difficult thing to say, but do you think it is time for the U.S., the U.N., to go in and send in U.N. peacekeepers? Well, to go in, I cannot tell you that, because that would be my opinion. But that's what the people are asking for.

The people they're asking for. And I can't tell you how much I appreciate you telling us what they're asking for rather than your opinion. You're obviously a very, very good journalist. So, you know, that is something I think.

I think it's time for us to consider that, Chuck. I think it's time for us to look at doing something. I was listening to an NPR podcast this morning, and the folks in Miami are just plain asking for military action. I mean, that's not true. Let me ask you this, Carlos. Is that a widespread opinion and desire that the United States take military action with the folks protesting in Miami, Miami-Dade area?

Well, right now, Francis Suarez, he gave his opinion about this topic, and he said that Biden needs to consider intervening in Cuba. So that's a fact. I mean, people want it. Yeah. Well, this is really an unprecedented situation because there have been uprisings before, but nothing at this level. And frankly, I think if you took communism or the sort of left ideology out of it,

I think we'd be intervening if this was a so-called fascist right-wing regime. Wouldn't we be there right now? It would be interesting. We're going to take a quick break. We're with Carlos Martinez from Miami Herald talking about the Cuba situation. We'll be back right after this quick break. 2020 sure was a fun political year, wasn't it?

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Welcome back to Broken Potholes with your host Sam Stone and Chuck Warren on the line with us. Carlos Martinez of the Miami Herald. We're talking about Cuba, some really historic happenings there. And Chuck, you were asking a question right before we went to break. How is this different than past protests or?

Well, every time there is a popular discount in Cuba, the Cuban government chooses to open borders and let those who disagree with the government to live.

the i think it was in the 80s yeah in the 80s there was a great popular discount in cuba but the people did not take this truth right now that time was called like the mario that's the way he was called they they got up the country gay people people who didn't believe in the system uh people who didn't work

They get also assassins from the jail that send it to the U.S. And in the 90s, which is considered the time of the special period in Cuba after the socialists came of the Soviet Union fell, hundreds of people took the street in 1994 in Havana, which is known as Demale Conazo. But what protested, those protests did not last that long. Fidel was alive at that time, and his military forces arrived.

And they could manage to calm down the situation in that moment. We're with Carlos Martinez, reporter, Miami Herald, who's been covering the Cuba protest and what's going on down there and in South Florida. Carlos, how has the Internet changed?

embolden people, allow them to grow their protests. I understand reading basically your articles too that the Cuban government shut down the Internet, but I'd imagine the Cuban government needs the Internet as well to do business somewhat. What's going on with that? What role has that played, and how long can the government continue to shut down the Internet? Well, in 2016, the people in Cuba began to have more access to the Internet.

At that time, there began some influencers on social media like Otaola, Yisrabila. Those people are very popular in the Cuban-American community. And they've been working and asking the people from Cuba to take out the streets and fight for their freedom. So that's the only way you can unmatch that again, because until July 11, there were people who still believed that Cuba is heaven on earth.

So what happened when you cut up the Ethernet? Well, the government in Cuba has the power of that. There's only one platform where you can get the Ethernet. It's called a fax app. It's the only one. It's not here that you have AT&T, T-Mobile, and you can get whatever you want. In Cuba, you have only one. And when stuff like this happens, they just cut it up.

And what happens when you have a country without it? You cannot know what's happening there. You don't know if people are getting killed. You don't know if people are getting beaten. So they did that. They disconnected Cuba from the world. That's a big problem. That's a huge problem. Carlos, could you explain to our audience, tell us what daily life is like in Cuba for an average family? What's it like?

It was like, well, I mean, in case of regular Cuban family, well, you don't have milk in the breakfast, as usual. People, students, they go to school sometimes without having breakfast because they don't have the possibility to have that. Just something as simple as milk, it's done.

That's one thing. People like me, journalists, we don't have the right to write whatever we want. We cannot be independent. If you do that, you go to jail for that simple reason. Also happening in Cuba, you have to make big lines to get some chicken. I mean, lines are like two blocks of lines.

You get some chicken. There are some stores in Cuba that the only way you can buy stuff in there is with dollars, like dollars from here, from the U.S. And how people can get that. These people in Cuba don't get paid with the U.S. bill. So they have those stores in Cuba where they have a lot of food, a lot of everything, and people don't have the ability to get that food.

And the national stores, they don't have anything. They have lack of food, water, and everything. So there's nothing in Cuba. And what about the medical situation regarding COVID? You know, that's initially what the Cuban officials said. This is because of COVID. Other people who were giving tacit endorsement of Cuban government were saying the same thing. What is the situation with COVID in Cuba?

Well, the US, I think they offer Cuba the program that is called COVAX. That program was supposed to get vaccines in countries like Cuba, and they denied it because they were working their vaccine, which are not vaccines already. They are used like a, it's not a regular vaccine. It's all like working on it. And what is happening right now, they have like a spike on the COVID cases.

They don't have enough, like, personnel in the hospitals because probably most of the time they're out of the country working in other countries. Carlos, I apologize. I have to cut you off. We are about to go to break right here. But I want to thank you so much for being on the program. Carlos Martinez of the Miami Herald talking Cuba. Broken Potholes coming right back.

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Welcome back to Broken Potholes, airing Saturday, 3 p.m., 960 KKNT, The Patriot in Phoenix. You can catch us on Substack. You can catch us on Spotify. You can catch us on Apple Podcasts. On the line with us, Carlos Martinez of the Miami Herald. Carlos, before we let you go today, and thank you so much for being on the show, telling our audience what is going on in Cuba today.

What is your message that you see that needs to get out there right now to the American public? Well, guys, I just want to thank you first. And then I want to share the message with you. Please, every time you see something regarding Cuba, please share that message because there are people dying right now in Cuba. There are people dying because they don't have food, they don't have vaccines. The first thing that we need in Cuba is freedom.

So please share our message. You have a hashtag, it's called SOS Cuba. Please help us to share this message. Thank you. Thank you so much. Carlos Martinez of the Miami Herald, fantastic to have you on the program today. And it's just a really sad time for the people of Cuba. Carlos, we hope you'll join us again here next month, and hopefully things have gotten better or there's been some movement, but we appreciate your time today. Okay. Well, I appreciate it. Thank you, Carlos. Appreciate it.

Well, some heavy, heavy stuff on the program today. The thing about is, you know, a lot of people in America just like to moan and groan about America. They just really don't know what's going on. No. I mean, you know, I mean, so we're talking about Cuba. That's not only dealing with COVID. It's probably it's like India. It's been underreported. Let's be blunt about it. They're not being honest about it. No, absolutely. You have a government that doesn't want to take help from people that can actually give it help. Right. Right. You know, if Venezuela was.

anything it was 10 years ago, they'd probably be in there, but they're a mess. It's certainly putting a lie to a lot of the stuff that you hear about how great Cuba's medical system... Oh, yeah, because that's what you... I mean, look, everybody, you know, Michael Moore, Sean Penn, they had the best...

healthcare system in the world. They had the best education system in the world. You know, the thing I'm always told about socialism is you get food, good healthcare, and good education, and they have struck out. And that's probably an analogy they love in Cuba is they love baseball. They are striking out, you know? So we have that. And then we have all our yahoos here moaning and groaning about America. And in India, they probably have got three and a half million people who have died of COVID. That number,

when we have our guests back on in September, it's probably going to be 4 million plus. At least. Probably 5 million by December. Folks, stop moaning and groaning about America. Yes. Stop moaning and groaning about your state. If you have a complaint, get involved. Get your vaccine. But whenever I hear people complain about America, I'm like, yeah, you haven't traveled much, have you? No. No, that's absolutely true. Because what's going on in Cuba is absolutely astounding. And folks...

I think I mentioned on the program, I've really come to love YouTube reactions. I love seeing people's first reaction to stuff. And I really encourage you to go out, look up Cuban reacts to Costco. First visit to Costco. This channel, Yoel and Mari, he is Cuban. She's American. Managed, I assume, to basically smuggle him over here. I'm not sure exactly how he got here, but she's been taking him around and introducing him to America.

And it's really heartwarming, but it's heartbreaking because he goes in there and the first time he goes into a grocery store, this guy's literally in tears because he knows what his family, his mother, is dealing with with no food and no access to any of this stuff.

And, you know, this is Disneyland. Average U.S. supermarket is Disneyland to a Cuban. Well, not only Cuban, but probably at least 50% of the world. Right. At a minimum. So we're with our great associate producers, Jamie and the irrepressible Kip today. And so Sam called me this morning. I was busy and I didn't pay a lot of attention. But Sam had a gripe.

this morning and we're going to sort of open this time for Sam's Phoenix gripe. We need a hashtag for that. Hashtag Phoenix gripe. Can we get that in the future? Hashtag Phoenix gripe. Sam, what were you grumpy about this morning? You know, so yesterday I got a call from somebody and I'm going to leave their name out of it because they were already taking some flack. Good. But we got a call about some camping activity in the canals.

where, you know, Phoenix has spent a ton of money, folks, like almost every city. We've spent literally hundreds of millions of dollars trying to upgrade our recreational opportunities. And so we put in these multi-use paths for walking, biking, running, and all this kind of stuff along all our canals. And, you know, it's a really great opportunity to get a little bit out of the city while you're still inside of it, to be able to enjoy these things. But the fact is, a lot of our residents are

are not comfortable using them for that purpose. In fact, what we've done is spend hundreds of millions of dollars creating really lousy camping areas for our homeless population. And we're basically throwing that investment away. We're getting calls, you know, pretty regularly in our offices about incidents around these canals where you've got a woman jogging down the thing and a guy comes out of the bushes, you know. How often do you get reports like that?

Pretty regularly. They happen every week. Well, I mean, others get more of them. And a lot of them I know could just go unreported because. Would you let your significant other or your daughter or your sister run those canals? Not alone. Not alone. Absolutely not. And for years, for years, we have been told at the city of Phoenix that there's absolutely nothing we can do about that. That's federal land and camping is allowed on federal land. And so we can't take any steps.

What I learned was that, no, that's a lie. I'm not even going to sugarcoat it. This is a lie that City of Phoenix staff has told us because basically all they have to do is fill out some paperwork with the Bureau of Reclamation to designate that as a no camping area.

And by the way, we are spending tens of millions of dollars right now on expanding our homeless services, like, you know, our homeless service campus. We're putting up hotels to put them in. We're doing all sorts of stuff. If there's ever a time we don't want to just wipe this problem under the rug, it's right now. And yet that's what city staff was doing. They didn't even come to council and tell us this. And they've hidden all the problems.

throughout this thing. They're not even telling us. I mean, the only reason we know is we get calls from our constituents. They're not telling us about this. They knew. They knew about the solution and they refused to bring it up. Now, this is a purely political decision. I know for a fact that council offices were not informed. I do not know if the mayor was aware or not. Frankly, I think that's a good question. But at the end of the day, folks, this homelessness problem is out of control.

And we continue. There is this liberal philosophy in government that says we just need to leave them alone and let them do their thing. But that is inhumane. So what can the citizens of Phoenix do to stop this immediately? Well, the citizens of Phoenix need to get on the horn and start calling their council members and tell them to fix this now. All we have to do is sign a letter to the Bureau of Reclamation saying,

And we can designate these no camping areas. We can clean them up. We can get them out of the canals and look around. Phoenix last night got the first really heavy monsoon rain we've had in a couple of years. So I think we're all like the dog coming out of the pond today, shaking the water off, happy as can be, right? But what else you're going to see is a massive explosion in homelessness all across the valley or what appears to be a massive explosion in homelessness. And the reason is really simple.

We hide the problem in our canals and irrigation ways almost all the time. And then when something like this happens, obviously the water starts flowing. They have to get out of there. People are going to drown. Yeah. But you also, I mean, talk about the environmental damage because you have all sorts of camps. You have feces. You have urine. You have all sorts of.

I mean, you know, chemical stuff. They're bringing, you know, oil cans down in there. I mean, there's all sorts of stuff. So what the citizens of Phoenix need to do to clean this up, to not only make it safe, but also when you have monsoon season, this is a dangerous place for these homeless folks to be. It's incredibly dangerous. We get flash floods. Well, and you're having it all weekend. I mean, so this will not be surprising sometime by Sunday night. We have somebody who's been swept away by the water or so forth. Right.

So what they need to do is contact their council people. We'll have Jamie, let's put that on Broken Potholes website and social media, contact them and tell them to send this letter. You know, for all the angst the former president caused, I am sure there's something, a letter been sent to his Bureau of Reclamation that this probably would have been taken care of rather quickly. It would have been taken care of instantaneously without any question. And I mean, look, folks, this goes to the approach. It's time.

We are doing a lot for our homeless population, but a lot of what we're doing is enabling. We're allowing them to continue to use drugs and have their uncompensated mental illness and live on the street. And frankly, here in Phoenix, that is inhumane. It's 100 plus degrees all the time. The weather, you know, it's not the environment for that.

You have to stand up. This is the time. You have to stand up to these policies that have said, let's just let them be. Because right now they have the homeless populations having a massive, massive impact on the broader population. So, Sam, in case people don't know, what are the tactics, the strategy that the city of Phoenix, the money they're spending on the homeless to try to

You know, a lot of these folks need help. Right. It is what it is. Right. So let's we're not going to be callous about it. No, we also need to keep people safe. We also need to put them on a trajectory where they're successful. Yes. Where they feel purpose.

What are some of the things the city of Phoenix is doing for the homeless population of Phoenix that most people don't realize? Well, for one thing, we are massively expanding our shelter capacity. We're adding in a no barrier shelter. We have supported a number of outside organizations across the valley to increase their capacity. We are coordinating with other valley cities.

to get them in the fight for the first time. And so there are a lot of resources being poured into this. There's resources for mental health. There's resources for drug addiction treatment. We're doing everything but the one thing we need to be doing, which is enforcing the law. And when the homeless population violates that law, you give them a choice to go into treatment or face the criminal justice system.

And that's what we need to be doing. That is the solution. And by the way, the countries in Europe that deal with homelessness, well, that's what they do.

Let's talk about our guests a little bit today. I really liked both of them. I thought they were actual journalists. They are. Both of them are actual journalists. Carlos Martinez has obviously lived this. Yes. We were not able to get into the fact that I am sure he has a handful or two of relatives still over there. He said he came here at 17. Was that correct? Yeah. 17. I would like to have both of them on for a full program because I think it would be very interesting to dive into this further. Well, it's funny. When Kip was arranging them, they were both –

they both undersold what they wanted to say, you know? Um, and you know, it's funny, they're, they're both very knowledgeable. I don't think,

And we want knowledge here. But I thought it was really interesting. And again, we need more journalism like that. Yes. And we need more people reading journalism like that instead of going to these alternative left and right blogs all the time. I mean, there's some real, you know, as much as I give, as much as the New York Times has become, especially on the opinion page, a liberal wag, right?

their international reporting is excellent. And folks, take the time to read it. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I really appreciate them coming on. And particularly, you know, look, for a reporter from The New York Times, you're coming on a program with two guys who are pretty conservative in our own personal beliefs. But if you look at our guests, we have had a really broad array of guests from, you know, The New York Times today, obviously Washington Post, a lot of other outlets that would be considered on the left.

as well as ones on the right. And I think that's really brought better conversations here than you're getting in many other places. And I think it's the big thing that's missing in our media landscape. Balance. Balance is important. Who is the best reporter covering Phoenix City Council meetings? Is there one?

No. No, they're pretty terrible. Christina Estes of the KJZZ, the local PBS station, is probably the best just because she's been on it for the longest. She knows where all the bodies are. But she has to cover a million other things, too. The Arizona Republic just keeps assigning us kids who don't know anything. You know, the best reporter in town, literally the best reporter in town, I think, is Ray Stern with the Phoenix New Times, which is the most left paper here on

He's an old school journalist and he tries to stick to the facts and he's fair. Well, who do we have on our show next week? Next week, we got Ben Leshner from the Phoenix Police Lieutenant Sergeants and Lieutenants Association, PPSLA, and a lady named Rachel Lastman, who founded a program called Coins for Cops. We're going all in for law enforcement next week.

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