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There's a reason the Sleep Number smart bed is the number one best bed for couples. It's because you can each choose what's right for you whenever you like. Firmer or softer on either side, Sleep Number does that. One side cooler and the other side warmer, Sleep Number does that too. You have to feel it to believe it. Sleep better together. And now save 50% on the new Sleep Number limited edition smart bed. Limited time. Exclusively at a Sleep Number store near you.
See store or sleepnumber.com for details. Welcome to Chasing Life. You know, we're finally settling into the new year. But I have to tell you, as winter drags on, I've been feeling a little stuck lately. It's hard to describe, but just harder and harder for me to find the motivation. I'm increasingly content to just sort of lie around the house as opposed to getting up and doing things. And I got to tell you, in times like these...
A little boost, just a little boost of something I find can go a long way. And that's what I wanted to talk about today on the podcast. Something known as a Dopa Menu. It's kind of a creative project meets sort of list of strategies to use. You know, it's in some ways it's like a portion of a self-care plan.
That's Eric Tivers, ADHD coach, host of the podcast, ADHD Rewired, and yes, creator of something known as the Dopa Menu. Now, it's exactly what it sounds like. It is a menu of stimulating or healthy activities that are designed to boost your dopamine. That's
That's the brain chemical that drives motivation and reward. So we have everything from like our appetizers, which is like the little things, you know, going for a quick walk or having a snack or, you know, putting some music on or lighting a candle. Little things like that are pretty low effort. The idea is pretty simple.
that it can help brains like Tiver's stay engaged. Now he was diagnosed with ADHD at age 19, right as he was on the brink of flunking out of college. But with that diagnosis came a major shift in his life and a new understanding of how his brain works. A neurotypical brain is kind of like a soundboard or a mixer, right? You can adjust the different channels up and down to get more volume on what you want, less on what you don't. Neurotypical brains do this automatically.
An ADHD brain, everything's just turned up. So nowadays, he's dedicated to helping others find ways to work with their brains instead of working against it. People with ADHD have an interest-based nervous system, where most people have an importance-based nervous system. You know the thing is important, so prioritize that and get that thing done.
For people with ADHD and other neurodivergent people, because we have this interest-based nervous system, it is super hard to actually do the boring thing. Now, I want to tell you right off the bat, this is not just for people with ADHD. It's like the people with ADHD, we need to use these strategies. But these are often really great strategies for everybody.
We're going to help you create your own Dopa menu today, and we're going to break down how it works, why it matters, and how very simple shifts can boost your motivation and also bring more joy to your day. I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN's chief medical correspondent, and this is Chasing Life. I was always kind of a very eh student, like not great, not awful, but not great.
And when I started getting really good grades, it kind of was like a drug. I was like, ooh, I got like all A's and a B this month. I need this again. Like in grad school, I finished with a 4.0. And at the time that was like, I looked at it as a huge accomplishment.
In retrospect, when I think about, well, what did it actually take me to be able to do that? I was sleeping two hours a night, maybe. It was so unhealthy. And I realized that I had kind of done that in my adult life as well. And I just got to this point where the work that I do to me is so important. If I do ADHD coaching and I do a lot of group stuff, my primary way of marketing is through my podcast, ADHD Rewired.
And during COVID, like everyone and their mother started an ADHD podcast. So suddenly the stuff that like I had built and scaled and was going wonderfully. Now, all of a sudden there was like the marketplace for ADHD coaching got very crowded and the ADHD podcast basket got very crowded. And so I was having to put in all this extra work and I wasn't getting the same results from it. It was a very inconvenient time to be burnt out.
And you ignore that long enough. And it's like, life's going to kind of tell you to stop. And so I went through that and was burning out really, really bad. And I know if I were to try to continue this way, even for another year, that'll be it. I'll be done. And now I'm like, how about let's focus on the excitement of energy sustainability, which doesn't sound as sexy, but like.
The go, go, go, the hustle culture. It's so toxic. I feel like I'm getting a chance to just sort of sit inside your mind a little bit here. Right. And hear how you sort of, you know, reckoned with many of these things that have gone on. Can you give me an idea, like, where did this idea of a dopamine menu come from? So it kind of came out organically. I was having a conversation with Jessica McCabe from How To ADHD. And...
that we were talking about like ways that we combat boredom all right and i've always been kind of into wordplay and really bad dad jokes and it kind of just came out like it was basically i was doing some wordplay um and she's like oh that's really good and she really liked it and so that's kind of it was the origin of the idea of the dopamine you because this idea of you know it's like we don't want to go to the grocery store hungry
Right. So it's sort of this idea of, yeah, like when we're bored, like that's not the time to think about what we want to do. Like,
Because otherwise, we're just going to grab our phones and scroll for way longer than we meant to. So what is it? Is it an actual menu? Yeah, yeah. So it's kind of a creative project meets sort of list of strategies to use. You know, in some ways, it's like a portion of a self-care plan. So we have everything from like our...
Our appetizers, which is like the little things, you know, the going for a quick walk or having a snack or, you know, putting some music on or lighting a candle. Like little things like that that are pretty low effort but still can be helpful. Or adding things. So, all right, so you're doing the dishes, you're cooking, but on a podcast, right?
Right. Or, you know, things like that, but just add a little bit more stimulation for the brain. And how, how different is this person to person? Has everyone come up with their own dopamine menu? Absolutely. Absolutely. It's actually cool. I was doing some searches online and I just put in, I don't know, dopamine menu and then an image search. And I actually came up, there's a lot of people who have posted their own dopamine menus. And I've seen some really, really cool versions of this. And then it,
One of the things that I've done on my own dope menu is I'll also put in like seasonality. I'll put in like how much sort of dopamine that particular activity tends to deliver for me.
Right. So I typically will rate it between one to five. So it's like you'll see it like an Alka menu. Right. It's like it's priced by how much you think I even have on their desserts, which are kind of like the anti-dopamine. I mean, it's like grabbing your phone to just scroll on social media, you know, drinking, drugging, those kinds of things.
The things that are not healthy, right? Like watching another episode of whatever show you have on Netflix, right? Like we're trying to stimulate our brain, but like there's a net loss. You know what I think that's also an important thing to consider when we're taking like a break from work, right? So we're stressed, whatever, we've been at it for a while. So let's say we hop on to whatever our social media channel of choice is.
And sure, maybe that gives us a sort of a plus one on our dopamine, except transitioning and stopping, which are executive functions, costs you two. That's interesting. Right. It's kind of thinking about like, oh, wait, yeah, that is actually not worth it. Like, that's really the time. Because when I first read about this, I thought to myself, look, we have a pretty good idea of what makes us feel good.
Comfort foods, you know, desserts, doom scrolling. Maybe that doesn't make us feel good. But, you know, cluster watching television or binge watching television, whatever. But at the same time, you take it the extra step to say, okay, we realize that may give you a plus one, but what is the cost of that as well? That has to fit into the menu. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm actually pulling mine up. So for my appetizers, I have eat lunch away from the desk.
I have play a fish jam. I'm a big fan of the band fish. I've seen them like listen to a podcast listen to a TED talk go outside watch YouTube videos on motorcycles and I put a time limit on there as well for 10 to 15 minutes and
guided meditation. Then I have for my entrees, which then I have underneath that says bigger and more satisfying. Pick a ball, go for a bike ride, go for a walk on a nice day, playing piano and guitar, listening to great music, play ping pong, motorcycle ride, listen to an audio book, engage in a new hobby, journaling, drawing, doing something fun with my son Gibson, getting a massage. And on that, I have a little calendar icon and a dollar icon because some things cost money. Tidying up,
which fluctuates for me. Sometimes that is an aversive task. Sometimes it feels good. So it just kind of depends. Searching for concerts to go see, playing with my cats, learning any song on piano, reviewing my bucket list, reviewing long-term goals, reviewing my current mission. I think it's important to remind yourself of
the why often when you have ADHD, otherwise you're just like doing a task list. And if you don't feel connected to it, like it's super hard to get really engaged in that. And then I have my desserts. As I mentioned, I have a scrolling video games, sugary treats, staying up late. So those are the things that like aren't great yet. I tend to, you know, those are things that I will go to.
And then I have my specials, concerts, vacations, buying something new, going to a movie, date night, going to a good restaurant, going dancing. And so those are kind of the core parts of my built menu. You know, and even when it comes to the desserts, the idea, again, that there are things that you...
You enjoy in the moment, even though you know you may pay a price later on, too much sugar or whatever it might be. Same sort of thing with dopamine. Right. And I always say, you know, this idea of like everything in moderation, including moderation, right? It's like, yeah, know the cost. You know, if I'm going to be up all night or be up really late and know I'm going to impact my sleep, which can probably affect me for a day or two afterwards, right? I better be doing something that was worth it and not something that I'm just mindlessly on online. You know, I want to be it.
going to a concert or something where it's like, oh, that's going to, I'm going to be feeling that and riding that wave for quite some time. Otherwise, it's not worth it. I just want to make sure I understand that
And people often associate dopamine with a feeling of happiness, of joy even. Was that lacking in someone with ADHD that you needed more dopamine? Our brains are under-aroused in its natural state. That's what I'm getting. So that's a new term. It's more challenging to arouse your brain if you have ADHD. Yeah.
Yes. I hadn't heard it put like that before. It's interesting to say, I think in 2012, there was this really cool study that looked at, it was a group composite image of, there were hundreds of adults with ADHD that they put under fMRI scans and had them do kind of basic, you know, cognitive, boring types of tasks. And they, in the control group were people without ADHD. And often people with ADHD have been called lazy.
And we think about lazy is effort. So this image compared the ADHD brain to the non-ADHD brain and the rewarded ADHD brain to the non-rewarded ADHD brain. And what it showed is that the ADHD brain is working profoundly harder, putting in more effort to do basic cognitive tasks that are boring.
And sort of the one-two punch, we need more sort of like that reward. And we're also less responsive to it. Like it doesn't stick as well, right? There's this idea I've heard before about like, you know, if you're talking with kids, if a kid's struggling in school, say, hey, if you can get your grades up to this, we'll buy you the new, you know, whatever gaming system. Or if you get your homework in this week, you can choose where we go for dinner, right?
they're all going to choose the gaming system and like none of them are going to get it because that's way too long of a period of time to do it. And our brain needs frequency of reinforcement to learn. Was dopamine you sort of initially a strategy for your ADHD? I mean, or is this something that
could be more widely used. Oh, it could absolutely be widely... You know the concept of universal design? Not sure. Tell me. So I think it can probably best explain that this is kind of this little short parable. It's snowing really hard, and there's kids who are trying to get into the school, and the maintenance crew, they're busy trying to clear off the steps so the kids can get into school, and there's a kid in a wheelchair, and he says to the maintenance guy, can you please do the ramp? Yeah.
And the maintenance guy says to the kid, look, we have all these other kids. Like, you're just going to have to wait. And then the kid says back to the maintenance guy, well, if you do the ramp, everyone can get into the school, including me.
Right? That's the universal design. Right? And I think that when we look at the strategies for managing ADHD, it's kind of a universal design for life. It's like the people with ADHD, we need to use these strategies. But these are often really great strategies for everybody. I love that, Eric. Thank you for sharing that. The idea that, again, in this case, everyone can walk up the ramp. The dopamine you could have benefits for everybody, not just those with ADHD. Yeah.
The idea of writing it down as you did, you have your starters, your appetizers, your entrees, your desserts. How important is it to do that? I think it's real important. Otherwise, it is just kind of good intentions. And anything that we're planning that has any sort of depth to it, you know, it's sort of like if you look at a map through a straw.
That's how much you can have access to if you don't write it down. Write it down. You could see the whole map and view what you want to when you want to. Spend that time coming up with the ideas because you don't want to figure out where you want to go eat when you're already hungry or going to the grocery store and you're already hungry. You want to have a plan of what you're going to be doing. And when that need kicks in, you have something you can just refer to. Oh, this is what I said I was going to do.
All right, after the break, we're going to tell you how to create your very own DOPA menu. We're going to do it together. This podcast is supported by Sleep Number.
There's a reason the Sleep Number smart bed is the number one bed for couples. It's because you can each choose what's right for you whenever you like. Firmer or softer on either side, Sleep Number does that. One side cooler and the other side warmer, Sleep Number does that too. You have to feel it to believe it. Only Sleep Number smart beds let you choose your ideal comfort and support, your Sleep Number setting. Sleep Number smart beds learn how you sleep and provide personalized insights to help you sleep better.
The new Sleep Number Climate Cool smart bed lets you adjust up to 15 degrees cooler on either side. It's perfect for couples who struggle with sleeping too hot. Sleep better together. And now save 50% on the new Sleep Number Limited Edition smart bed. Limited time. Exclusively at a Sleep Number store near you. See store or sleepnumber.com for details.
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These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. How long did it take you to put together? I mean, if someone is hearing this and they're saying, I want to make my own dopamine menu, my dopamine menu. I've done it with one of my online coaching communities. We did it together in about an hour. So it involves, I imagine, you really taking stock of your life and being really sort of diligent about figuring out what did give you that blast of dopamine. Yeah.
How would you quantify it in some way? How long did it last? What price did you pay to get that sort of blast of dopamine? Am I on the right track? Yeah, and it's also... It's not just like the big things that can be the blast of dopamine. It's kind of like...
What are the things that give you that regular sort of dopamine drip, right? The slow release, but regular release of dopamine to kind of just increase that just a little bit, you know, to help with the activation, to help with motivation, to help with learning even. I mean, that's really what dopamine does. Do you find that your menu changes? Oh, yeah. What may be more beneficial may become less or even more later on in life?
Yeah. I mean, it's, and it's funny too, because when I was reviewing mine the other day and I see you talking to see and seeing friends, I was like, I'm
I'm a big introvert and I love my like my alone time like this past summer I did two three night runs at fish one was in Wisconsin the other one was in Indiana and when I did in Indiana I rode my motorcycle up by myself and it was like I loved it like just having that like I don't have to respond to anyone like I can just do what I want to do what I want to do like to me like I love that and that
energizes me. Right. So it's sort of like understanding, Oh, like I really need a lot of that alone time to recharge myself. Right.
So when I saw that on my menu, I was like, sometimes I like that. Other times, not so much. So you've got to create the menu. You've got to allow the menu to be in a little bit of a state of flux. It's got to be able to change. Well, I think that it's a tool. It's just like our calendar and our to-do list. Just because we captured it and put it in the calendar or the to-do list doesn't mean we have to do it. We can change our minds. Yeah. I think it's interesting because I think anyone listening, myself included, listening to you,
reflects on what are those things that would fall into their own starter appetizer, their own entree, their own dessert, the big things that would be on their Dopa menu. And it's a really interesting exercise because it makes you sort of put a name and put a write down things that have actually given you that value in your life. You kind of maybe instinctively know what
But to actually put it down and to be able to read it and then go get it from time to time, order off the menu, I think is a really interesting exercise. And I think especially when sometimes when we feel things in the extreme, it's almost easier to develop strategies around. Right. It's like because we need it. Right. It's like, you know, life's hitting us over the head and saying, hey, pay attention to this because something's not working for you. But when it's a little bit like just below the threshold.
It's almost easy to miss what's happening and then wonder why we feel just in this state of like just not feeling well. Right. And, you know, whether it's feeling bored or unsatisfied or low-grade depression, that's almost harder in some ways to then actually proactively address because it's not hitting you over the face with it.
And I think if you know your tendencies and the patterns around that, you can then say, okay, during this time of year, if you know you have a history of seasonal affective disorder, you can then kind of sprinkle little things throughout your day and your week that just add little bits of dopamine. Even just like adding some spice to your food can be a nice dopamine hit, right? Because spicy food can actually increase dopamine. Yeah.
Yeah, I love that. I think just being intentional about this. I almost describe it as a little bit of a state of fog, but I imagine people have their own adjectives for it. But these last couple of weeks in particular, I think it's been just kids have not gone to school for a couple of days because of snow days. And it's just which I love having my kids around. Don't get me wrong, but I'm just saying everything feels a little unsettled. It's just a little foggy. And the idea is
That you could add a little spice to your food, that I could do what I did before doing this interview with you, go outside and just stick my face in the sun for a bit and breathe in nature for a while. I wouldn't have been as intentional about that in the past. I know that it feels good, but like, you know, you have to eat. So you order off the menu. That's the thing you have to do. You can't not eat.
The idea that you need dopamine and that you should be able to order your dopamine off a menu in the way that you've sort of laid it out, I think it's a really interesting exercise, something that I'm going to do. Because I think especially when, you know, as someone with ADHD,
There's definitely this tendency to overvalue our now self and discount our future self, what neuropsychologists would call temporal discounting. And so many of the strategies that I put into place are really designed to be considerate of my future self.
And that's what the Dope Meat menu does for you. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Can you just spend a couple minutes talking us through it? Like, how would I start? Sure. So I use Canva, which is a pretty user-friendly graphic design thing, but you can use paper and pens and pencils, whatever kind of speaks to you from a creation standpoint. And so I have, you know, break it up like a regular menu. Appetizers, entrees, desserts, specials. So you want to sort of decide, like, the format that you want to actually use. So I
I would say put as much on the menu as you want to and as you can. Also recognize that not all items are going to be available. You want to have it highly flexible. You want it to be easy to engage with.
One of the things I think is really important is to have it easily accessible, whether it's like posted on your fridge or you have it like you laminate it and put it on your desk or even like save it as the lock screen or your wallpaper on your computer. So you're regularly seeing this. But make it your own. I've seen so many different sort of variations of this.
I've seen where people added like spice levels as you know you see that on many of some times as You know and that could mean whatever you wanted to mean that could mean like how? Easy or challenging it might be it could be how rewarding So writing it down, but then also this this how what the objective value is or how rewarding it might be I
Yeah, yeah. So let's say, I'm sure there's lots of people listening who, you know, they have that guitar at home that's just collecting dust and they regularly think about, I wish I was playing more guitar. Okay, well, what if you put the guitar right next to the couch where you normally just turn the TV on?
What if you actually put the remotes to the TV where the guitar usually is? So you actually put in efforts to go turn the TV on, and it's actually just easier to play the guitar. Things like that. So set up your space. If you want to do more journaling, because that's good. You find dopamine in that.
make sure your journal is easily accessible. If you have pens that you like to use, make it visually appealing. Even putting in reminders in your calendar, say, "Hey, have you looked at your dopamine in a while?" It's a very common thing with ADHD is we have these tools or strategies and then we forget to use the tools or strategies. So I'll put in questions in my calendar all the time and it says,
Hey, are you still doing this? Right. Right. Right. Because it's I've learned that, oh, I've discovered a strategy. It's working great. And then I'm like, I have no idea when I stopped doing that. Right. So it's like I have these sort of safety nets that I create for my future self. You on the podcast, you share a lot of stories of people who overcome challenges.
Are there particular ones that really jump out at you and that may offer some insights for people, especially right now during a cold, dark season? It's like...
you know i have 500 and i think 40 some episodes i was like i saw that i've been doing this for a while you know it's funny when i first started the podcast it was like i didn't have a grand master plan for this podcast i didn't think that i was going to actually start a whole side business which became my coaching business because of it and so when i started my podcast it was just it was a solo show i was just sharing sort of tips and strategies and
Then I got an email from a listener who sent this really, really long email saying that they were basically like homeless in their car, struggling with alcoholism. And they stumbled upon my podcast somehow and forgot that they were diagnosed with ADHD when they were younger. And as a result of like remembering that they had ADHD, they chucked themselves into rehab and like died.
basically changed their life as a result. So I got this email and it was just like, oh, this is why I'm doing what I'm doing. And I'm like, oh, it would be really good to have like a check-in with this person. And so I emailed him like, hey, can we get a check-in just to like put this on the tail end of the episode? This turned that into an hour-long conversation, which turned into my first interview. And after that, I was like,
oh, interviews are absolutely the way to go. Like, I just realized I was struggling with every week to plan and outline of what I was going to talk about. And I'm like, oh, I'm way better at being responsive versus like planning. And I think I'm a good interviewer and I'm a curious person. So like that was one that was really impactful for me.
I got to say, that was super interesting. And I've already created my own dopamine menu, my dopa menu. I hope you'll do the same. That was, of course, Eric Tivers. He's host of ADHD Rewired and creator of the dopa menu.
Chasing Life is a production of CNN Audio. Our podcast is produced by Aaron Mathewson, Jennifer Lai, Grace Walker, Lori Gallaretta, Jesse Remedios, Sophia Sanchez, and Kira Dering. Andrea Kane is our medical writer. Our senior producer is Dan Bloom. Amanda Seeley is our showrunner. Dan DeZula is our technical director. And the executive producer of CNN Audio is Steve Liktai.
With support from Jameis Andrest, John D'Onora, Haley Thomas, Alex Manassari, Robert Mathers, Laini Steinhardt, Nicole Pesaru, and Lisa Namarou. Special thanks to Ben Tinker and Nadia Kanang of CNN Health and Katie Hinman.
There's a reason the Sleep Number smart bed is the number one best bed for couples. It's because you can each choose what's right for you whenever you like. Firmer or softer on either side, Sleep Number does that. One side cooler and the other side warmer, Sleep Number does that too. You have to feel it to believe it. Sleep better together. And now save 50% on the new Sleep Number limited edition smart bed. Limited time. Exclusively at a Sleep Number store near you.
See store or sleepnumber.com for details.