Oliver Stone | Club Random with Bill Maher
02:07:38 Share

My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big ROAS man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friend's still laughing me to this day. Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn, you'll be able to reach people who do. Get $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to linkedin.com slash results to claim your credit. That's linkedin.com slash results. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn.

LinkedIn, the place to be, to be. Well, they wanted Nicholson and they wanted Warren Beatty and... Wrong, wrong. I know. There's a way to do... It was harder to get actors. It was harder to get the financing. I could drink Tritium. We could drink... It's got the radioactivity of a banana. I think you have been drinking it. I'm going to. I'm going to bring it to you. Club Random.

It's great to see you. Are we on now? And by the way, you're looking fantastic. Paul, give me a break. What? Are we on? You're older than... Yes, we're always on. Okay. That's what I'm telling you. No, I want to say thank you. It's nice to see you again. It's been a long time. I know, I know. We've had some great moments. Yeah, we have. It's been many years. From Politically Incorrect?

You remember that sign? Yeah, when you were on that show? I enjoyed that. I was... Oh, my God. I have some memories of you on that show. You were on once. Stop me if you... You were like... It just showed me what a master of the visual arts you are. You... This was probably early 90s. And you were... I don't think you'd slept the night before. I think you told me that. You're probably up all night working on one of your brilliant scripts. I mean, it was the 90s.

And you looked like shit, but you had like a handkerchief and like you were sweating, but then you'd like, and when the camera was on you, you looked perfect and you sounded brilliant. You were really flattering me. It's so true. You probably hadn't been to bed that night because it was, again, that's what we did back then. I think we were talking about which one, JFK or maybe it was Born on the Fourth. I don't remember.

You had me on several times. Oh, yeah. And you had me on with the panel, too. A couple, I don't know. Well, that show was all panel. Yeah, but I was a single guest on one of them. Okay, yes, we did some one-on-ones. That's true. And then I was on again recently, and then I think you were pissed at me because I gave you some shit. I have never been pissed at you. Sweetheart, if I had to make a list of, like,

that my hundred favorite movies there'd be like only a few directors that had like 10 of theirs on the list you would be one of them really well i mean i'm not going to go through i'll accept that compliment no i you know that um i mean there was never a question i mean your politics in mind don't always meet or mesh who knows what yours are well i say it every week on television everybody knows i love your new rules but you make up new rules when you want

Okay, you don't know what I do. You don't watch my show. You're talking out. I used to. You used to. There you go. I used to. Already, I caught you talking out of your ass. I'm sorry. I'm being honest. I shouldn't do that. Yes. I made you be honest. It's fine. I'd rather have honesty. By the way, I saw Bobby, Bobby Kennedy. I liked the show. It was pretty straight. Bobby Kennedy on real time? No.

No, he was on this. RFK Jr. Yes, he was on the podcast. I saw that and I saw the one with Woody, which was hilarious. Yes. But a little sloppy. Well, I hope.

If we did it right. I mean, you know, Woody and me. I was curious. We're not making a movie here, Oliver. You have to be a perfectionist. When you're on with Woody, it seemed like at times you had to coax him forward. He was being Woody, you know, and he was just... No one was coaxing or thinking or doing anything. That's the beauty of this show. We just start. We don't think, we don't plan. That's the question. You're always thinking, though. You always have a little camera in your brain. You do. You do.

Yeah, we both do, I guess. No, just you. That's why you're a director. But I'm not, and I don't want to be. I mean, that's too much mental energy going. I love it that I can do anything where I'm in the moment. I'm totally in the moment here in a way I can't quite be on real time. You're doing...

Your hangout routine. Yes. I'm doing what I do if I wasn't. This is a hangout. Yeah, this is definitely a hangout. So this is going to be the most-- And the best part of it is that I get to hang out with you and all these great people who, like, if we weren't working, we wouldn't probably hang out. Although we've had dinner. But, you know, we just each have our own lives. I'm just glad that something that forces somebody like you, who I admire so much, to sit down, you know. Yeah.

But your purpose of this club random show is not-- I guess what I'm trying to say is you know that this business is kind of a business. -It's a show business. -Yeah. So at a certain point, you always know it's show business. So, you know, are you really in your living room

doing the Mike, Edward R. Murrow routine. You're relaxed and all that. Right. Well, no, because he had a cameraman over there, and so people were, this is trying to fool you a little more. Now, you are not someone I can fool, unfortunately. I've had some very embarrassing moments in TV, because the stuff I do is,

It's raw, and sometimes it gets people going, and they get really upset with me. Some people hate me before they even see me. People hate me, too. Fuck them. What was embarrassing? You said embarrassing. I've had some bad shows, yeah. Like what? Embarrassing? I was on that guy, Colbert. Colbert. Because he hadn't bothered to fucking see the...

four-hour documentary that I'd done and worked on for almost a year. And he hadn't even bothered to see it. All he did was want to criticize my subject matter. You're not talking about the untold history of the United States. No, not the untold history. It was the Putin interviews. He hadn't even bothered with it. So he was like, he hated Putin for whatever. This was a few years ago. He hated him. Well, I did see your documentary, and I still hate Putin.

I mean, it didn't convince me. Sorry. No, I'm not trying to convince you because you are who you are. Well, that's kind of a backhanded... You are who you are, a person of limited intelligence who couldn't possibly understand this. That's really the implication there. Well, you should listen to him. He's got many, many points. But that's not the place to start.

Listen, this is your show. I'm starting to control it. No, no, it's no show. There's no starting or ending. It's just, if we were at dinner, would we, like, be planning this and go, oh, let's not start with Putin? He came up in conversation. I'm sure he'll come up again. I'm just saying that was uncomfortable on that show because his audience loves him, and they're cheering every fucking thing the guy says and, you know, hissing practically at anything I say. I mean, it wasn't even a reasonable, legitimate debate. It was just like...

Do you know that I have something? Haven't seen the film and blah, blah. Oh, no, that's unpardonable. I agree. But especially your films, especially with what you have earned. That means a lot in show business. If it was your second movie, okay. But you've earned that respect of like, watch that guy. You don't do that to Oliver Stone. Thank you. Yes. And I will say this about Putin. He and I have something in common. Can you guess what it is? I'll solve it for you. We both get up late.

Yeah. Do you know that he's a late riser? Yeah. You did know that, of course you know. Well, I never saw him early in the morning. No, but because he doesn't get up. Nor did I ever see Castro that early. Putin has a t-shirt that says, don't talk to me until I've poisoned someone's coffee. Oh, you don't, he doesn't poison people? Come on, man. Let's not start there. Okay. I think there's a lot of

things, accusations that get thrown out, you know, and I think you have to weigh that against Western media and what they say. You mean all those people fall out of windows? I mean, you really, you can't. We're starting in the wrong place. No, we're not. Okay. We'll come back to this. Okay. So you're not scared of COVID. That's good. Why would I be scared? No, not that I have it. No, but, but, you know, well, because we have created a whole generation of germaphobes.

Who are in the why? Because of COVID, because they were. Well, I mean, if you raise kids as hothouse plants anyway, which we were doing for the last 15, 20, God knows how many years. But if you coddle them and overprotect them and helicopter parent and bulldoze parent them and try to keep everything dangerous and everything is about safety and God, don't go out of the house because there's germs and.

Okay, if then you introduce something that really is somewhat frightening, somewhat frightening. You know, whenever I see someone with a mask outside walking alone, they're always like 22 years old.

the people the least likely to be felled by this. And they're the ones who were paranoid about it. I mean, if something's going around, I understand. It was a very bad period. I didn't enjoy it. I traveled a lot. Who enjoyed it? I was doing a lot of work abroad in Russia. During the pandemic? Yeah. Wow.

It was, what, two, three years of it, you know? No, we were traveling freely. And I actually got my first shot. I'm the typical, I'm confused about COVID, completely. No, no, no, I didn't, that wasn't, I was confused because my first shot I got in Russia, it was a vaccine, and it was based on the, they dealt with the previous, what was it,

or something like that. They had a vaccine. Yeah, they had a vaccine right away for us. And I got it. And it was working. It was fine. I came back to the West. They wouldn't let me back into the EU without getting a vaccine.

Another one? A pharmaceutical one from the U.S. Because they thought the Russian one was no good? Yeah, exactly. Insulting as usual. So I took the... Well, I mean, that's not... Come on, Russia is not a big boy country in a lot of ways like that. I mean... They have very good medicines when it comes to stuff like this. They're very advanced. They look like a bunch of gangsters in tracksuits. Oh, God. You're acting like Colbert now.

But Stephen Colbert and I probably agree on Russia and Putin. I mean, you're the outlier. Yeah, okay. I'm the outlier. And, you know, anyone could be. Anyway, I got my first shot there. It worked perfectly.

no nonsense, and they have a beautiful clinic there that does a lot of work, and they're very good, and they're very efficient. They came up with the first vaccine, actually, before us. And then I got... I had to get the... one of the Moderna or something like that, the Pfizer, to get into the EU. And then...

I got COVID somewhere along the line, and that's, you know, it came... After you were vaccinated. Yeah, after. Me too. It came and went. It wasn't, for me, a big deal. For some people, it is. And I know some people who really suffered, so it doesn't make any sense to me. I don't know what the fuck happened. Then I had to get another booster. But what I'm trying to say is that

They never figured it out. They don't know what... It's a jerk-off. And the whole way they dealt with it, this mass sterilization, this mass fear, is typical of what I feared the most in this world is...

the world is kind of becoming more and more rigid, like you said. See, we agree on that. On that, we totally agree. Yeah. It's just fashionable. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you do agree that some vaccines are necessary. Yeah, right. It's a case by case. And also it should be according to the individual. And especially after we found out that it didn't stop transmission or getting it,

Then there was no excuse for the, well, do it for other people. It's not doing anything for other people. So you don't have any argument now.

And then I met people who don't have it, and that was fine, who never had a vaccine, and they were functioning. So it's very confusing. Well, many people got it and never knew they had it because, like any... Nobody knows what it was. No, it's because people with very strong immune systems, something like that comes along, and maybe one day they felt...

kind of down or not quite themselves or, you know, really dragging their ass or maybe I feel like maybe I have a cold coming on, but they quickly got over it. So they felt like they never got it. And then on the other end of the scale, many people are not in good metabolic health. And so something like that comes along and they're either killed by it or have a very rough time with it. You know, that's what I mean by individuals. We're all at different stages here.

That's-- it's a mystery. It's a mystery also, you know, what happened in China. Was it a lab leak or was it a genuine natural market flu that came up? You know, I don't know. Would you make a movie about this subject?

I feel like it's good. I'm not chasing the news, you know? And it's very-- you're going to-- I'm going to have a-- Yeah. It's a lot of sensitivities there. Yeah, that's true. A lot of people suffered greatly. So you have to be-- you know, that's a very touchy subject. But do you think it was a lab leak? I believe it was, but I don't have any proof. Well, what I said from the very beginning is it should not even be a political question. It's a scientific question. What was the origin? Was it eating bats, which I think is way more racist?

Or was it a lab leak, which the woke idiots called, that's the... Why is that racist? That in their high-tech lab, it could have happened anywhere. It was a dumb idea to do gain-of-function research, which is what they were doing, which was suggested by Fauci and other people. And that's a legitimate medical debate to have. Also shouldn't be political. Should we do gain-of-function research? To me...

It's like, I know you're big on nuclear and we're pretty much in agreement on that, that we need nuclear power, but or nuclear weapons. You know, if we have treaties about these things, if these things are so dangerous that we even can't use them like nuclear power, certainly gain of function research is in that same realm.

You know, we don't have the logic with not having nuclear plants is, yeah, they're way better than regular energy, except if something goes horribly wrong, which is a valid argument. And that's the same argument with gain of function research. Yeah, probably would be good if we knew what the virus is going to do. But it's not really worth the risk of if it gets out, which it did. And it could have been worse. And it might be next time. Right? Yeah.

Yeah, there could be other epidemics. But, you know, I had polio. I had shots, all that. I didn't, like you, you were born the same year. Yes. You know, it went along all the whole way, got all the vaccines. Right. And I'm sure, but then I started to meet people who were actually fucked up by those vaccines, like the polio. Yeah. Including Bobby Kennedy brings a lot of focus on this in his book.

and Tony Lyons published the book. Tony's daughter...

got a shot for smallpox, I believe it was, and her mind was affected since she was about 14. But that's not to say that the smallpox vaccine wasn't a vaccine we needed, and if smallpox was going around again, I'd be the first one online to get it. That's the kind of thing that proves that... But you should talk to him first before you do that. I've talked to him about it. I just have a different opinion.

Smallpox, no. Every medical decision to me is just playing the odds because they don't fucking know anything. No, they know some things. The problem is they know a lot more than they used to know. So they think, oh, well, look at those idiots back then. Yeah, but it's what we don't know that we're going to know in 20 years that's going to make you go in 20 years, oh, Jesus, what a bunch of idiots we were. Sugar. We didn't know anything about sugar when we were growing up. Yeah. Yeah.

We didn't know much about auto safety, safety belts. We're at the infancy of understanding the human body and how it works. So be humble about that. Yeah. That's all I'm saying. But smallpox? No, I don't want to get... Smallpox could kill you. That was a really nasty one. That was not COVID. COVID's a pimp. Yeah. Yeah.

It was Barzini all along. Well, did you read Bobby's book about Fauci? I mean, a lot of what he said makes sense. It goes back to the AIDS vaccine that he resisted. There was all these homegrown cures, as it was with COVID. COVID people came up with ideas, including ivermectin and all those other things. And they were working for certain people. So it worked. I've taken it.

I did too. And they really said, no, you can't take ivermectin or whatever and the other things. So it's the law, the concept of authoritarian government that is really bothering me. And I think it bothers you. Authoritarian, yes, of course. Biden saying, you know, we can take the vaccine, you know. Yes, that's one form of it. I would say the form that Trump is threatening us with is even worse. Which is what?

Well, I mean, he doesn't concede elections. You know, the elections only count if we win theory of government.

Well, come on, you know Trump. He still has not conceded the election. He has not conceded. He does not honor the... Okay, I mean, do you know for a fact that he lost? I'm just curious. Okay. You're going to make me... I just don't know all the facts because... Well, I do. Is there a conspiracy theory you don't believe? Oh, come on, Bill. But, Oliver... You know I'm intelligent. Intelligent? Of course you are. But...

Look, look, I've had many people sit here and I've said the same thing to them. Like the key to getting along in America is not getting into these tribal things. It's understanding that you can have somebody in your life who you go for A, B, C and D. We are so aligned and the person is so smart and they really get it. And then E, each of you thinks the other one's crazy. And there's a couple of those with us.

But we got A, B, C, and D. And so we just... We'll start with that. Yes. That's got to be enough. You can't make people agree with you on these things. And you're right. Well, I'm just asking you. I'm not an expert on the election. I don't go... I'm not a political junkie. You are. And you follow it very closely. Okay. All right. Then I'll give you the thumbnail sketch. They tried it in like 60 courts.

It was laughed out of every court, including by Republican judges. The people who saved this democracy were Republicans, good Republicans in states where Trump pressured them like the one he's on trial for in Georgia. Find me 11,000 votes. It's on tape. It

a guy like that saying to him, sir, we just don't do that here. I voted for you. I'm a Republican, but we just don't do that. That's what saved us. And they were Republicans. So you don't take their word for it. I mean, it would. I don't know. I mean, you went through the 2000 election. That was horrifying to me.

what happened when the Supreme Court closed that down. You know, what happened there? I mean, you know the popular vote was won by... So what, should we just keep counting votes forever? I mean, should we still be counting the 20? No, count them correctly. Let's just get rid of the electoral college. Let's do a popular vote. The people who have testified that this was a fair and well-run election, it's a who's who of people like Bill Barr,

Mitch McConnell. You're talking about Liz Cheney. You're talking about dyed-in-the-wool, serious conservative Republicans who went with Trump really further out than a lot of us thought they would go with a guy like McCain's not a war hero. Okay, we'll forgive you. Lots of shit.

that he did agreeing with Putin at Helsinki against our intelligence agencies, but I know we don't want to talk about Putin. But they... You would. It's like, what will they... We found the thing that was their safe word, the thing that made them go, no, that's too far. And it was, we have elections in this country. If we don't transfer power peacefully, if somebody doesn't just be an adult and say, okay, you can't win them all. We lost that one.

Good luck, sir. When Obama became president, George Bush stood with him and he said, we want you to succeed. They don't do that anymore. Not that I love George Bush, but what a great moment. So what do you think happened in 2000 in Florida? 2000? Well, they stopped the vote. Well, first of all, the governor's the candidate's brother was the governor.

And the lady counting the votes, remember Cruella DeVille? Catherine Harris. I remembered the name wrong. Cruella DeVille, but you're right, Catherine Harris. I mean, could there have been shenanigans? Look, there were shenanigans in the Nixon-Kennedy election on the side of the Democrats. Yeah, always. I mean, plainly, Joe Kennedy, right, brought that election for his son? I reserve judgment because there was...

It was the Illinois part more than the West Virginia part. And that was Daley, and he was the boss there. And Daley did his own policing and this. But actually, I think Kennedy won the election. I really don't... That one is tight. The one that's the easiest to get on board with, you're like, no, I need all the facts on this. Well, I don't know the facts, and I think I would trust the accountants more than the politicians.

And I'd like to know what the accountants say, the guys who vote, who know the most about votes, who do the electoral commissions. You know, it just I can't take Biden's word for it on anything.

It's not his word. It's the Electoral Commission. It's Trump's own election security guy who said this was the most fair, well-run election that we've had ever. Really? Yes. I don't know about that. Okay. I don't know about that. Well, I mean, if there's nothing that can be said or argued that would convince you. I think what shocked people was that Trump won so many votes.

got so many votes, you know. That was what was shocking, that he did so well compared to what he was expected to do. Right. Because we believed all the East Coast. Why don't you believe he could have lost? We believed all the East Coast, the media elite, that he was going to fail, and boom. Yes. They were wrong. We love to see them being wrong, don't we? The media elite.

Because they really hated... Well, they wronged a lot, yeah. They went too far in hating, in dumping on Trump. And people don't like that in America. You're right. They don't like dumping on... You're right. And they did it too much. Well, yes. I was...

actually having this discussion about the CNN network recently. And I want there to be a CNN in the world, something that I used to be able to count on them. And I still do some-- What a joke. --some of it to just give it to me straight, Doc. Just give me the news. And they had this town hall with Trump.

about six months ago, and it was, they kind of, they took a lot of flak for it. But he was adored by the audience who were Republicans, I guess, and Independents, I think they said both. But whoever it was, they fucking loved him.

And then the panel comes on after, and they do nothing but shit on Trump and what a liar he is. And as a viewer, I'm thinking, you know what? I fucking hate Trump. I know he's a liar, but this is boring. First of all, we know it. And you're not trying to get at what I think would get a better audience for you, which is putting forward just the notion, why? Why do these people...

this entire audience of people? Why do they like him so much? What are you doing that is so off-putting, even if they don't like him that much, that they prefer him to you? If Cracker Jacks

peanuts and dog in it you know you don't know why the dog is you know getting half the action i think a lot of people liked him because he got dumped on so so much it's like pete rose you know yeah a lot of people started to resent the media for the dumping on pete rose

And he was probably crooked in that way with the gambling. No question. Well, we know exactly where. I mean, when they finally got it out of him, yes, it was wrong. But he, you know, first of all, he's the all-time hits leader. Yeah. All-time. Right. You know, hits. Hits is a very big part of the game of baseball. Yes. And he's top dog. Right.

He should not, you should not bet. I get it that they're like super, oh, we gotta, yeah, you don't want betting in baseball. He bet, my defense if I was his lawyer is, yes, he's wrong. Mercy of the court, but not life sentence because he bet on his own team. It's not like he, there's a certain, there is a difference between betting on your own team and betting against yourself. That's really kind of Benedict Arnold.

But to bet on your own team is just, let's just say he was enthusiastically confident and optimistic about his own fortunes. Okay. Would you make a movie about him? Well, you can see Trump was enthusiastic about his own fortunes, too. You did a sports movie. What? You did a sports movie. Yeah, I did a sports movie. Love, a great movie. And I still follow sports. See, that's it. You know, you've done so many great historical ones that I love because I'm a history nut.

Untold History is my favorite. Yes, I've told you this before, but there's never been a documentary before like that. The amount of footage that you fit in there, the density of it, plus the radical message, you know. You know what you said. About America. Before I came here, I just. And look, I'm not against you that America was overtaken by a vast right-wing conspiracy. You know, I get that.

In 2000 with Scalia. Well, before that. I mean, they've all been out there. They used to call them birchers. And then they were birthers, birchers, birchers, whatever you want to call it. It's the same one third. During the Reagan era, that's when they achieved a majority position. But Scalia was a betrayal of it. But they were, I mean, the birchers, I mean, look who I'm talking to, Mr. JFK. I mean, wasn't that ilk...

That right-wing, very far right-wing ilk, that was who really took out JFK, right? Yeah, all the people who didn't want the changes he was bringing. Right. And they were right-wing. At that time, you could say that they were conventional liberals because they were supporting the Cold War as it existed against Russia.

Yes, you can. Because they wanted to keep the... The expenses were going, the military, industrial, the money was huge. There was a lot of reasons to keep the whole system going as it was. So it wasn't just the right wing. It was also, unfortunately, the so-called liberal center. You know what scene...

It's just priceless. Finally, a book with the guts to challenge the accepted narrative of recent American history. Read it and realize that in America, there is what actually happened and a parallel universe of myth and conventional wisdom. This is the Washington... This is the Washington didn't really chop down the...

cherry tree book for our last hundred years. Yeah. That was what you wrote. I like that. It's... I've never seen anything like that. A documentary that, like, had me, like, just frame by frame. I mean...

The hours you must have put into that. Yeah, it was really a lot of work. But the scene in Nixon with Larry Hagman. Yeah. I love Larry Hagman. I met him a few times. He was awesome. Lovely man. Taught me how to make-- he said he starts every breakfast-- every day his breakfast was he would fry up like a biscuit filled with pot and eat that for breakfast.

you gotta love larry hagman yeah we're gonna smoke um but when nixon is he's like this oil some rich oil yeah big contributor and nixon's down there and you know we put you in the white house dick and i got the epa up my ass and yeah nixon goes uh well uh well ron no if you think it's bad having the epa up your ass try the irs yeah and that was like just

Yeah, your movies about government. But even when you made ones that like U-turn, I don't know what the point of that one was, but just wildly entertaining. And the football one. You know, I was like, I was surprised. Like Oliver Stone's making a movie about football? But again, it was, you know, had a lot of comments about society and...

And again, wildly entertaining. Well, everybody was rotten in it. It was really a film noir. Yeah. In the true sense of the word, in the film noir in the old days, everybody was bad. Right. And we've lost touch of that. So I wanted to do an homage to that. And the guy... Oh, okay. I get that. Sean Penn is a great hero in the sense, anti-hero. Oh. He's such a weasel. Yeah.

But in real life, such a great guy. Are you-- I hope you're still friends with him. Yeah, we talk. Oh, good. Although we're on different sides of certain points.

like you and I, and that's okay. It's okay. Oh, Sean's a big vaccine, you know. He's a big what? Vaccine. I mean, he's the one who vaccinated half. I got my vaccine from him in the parking lot at Dodger Stadium. And of course, at that moment, when a lot of people needed the vaccine, he did a great thing. How do you know it worked, though? How do you know it worked? I believe that

I totally believe that if you were in bad health, the vaccine saved your life in many cases.

I took the vaccine, I got the COVID. That's different. And you lived through it. And you may have not had a bad time with COVID because you had the vaccine, even though you got it. These are questions we don't know. And again, they're not political. What if it was a lab leak? What if the United States was developing these pathogens to kill for military reasons? It's at least 50-50 that it was a lab leak. But I feel like as time goes by, it's tipping more and more.

There's coming to the one of those points where there's a consensus. Maybe we'll never get there, but I feel like it's tipping toward lab leak and not bats. It's worse than that, I think. What are the labs in Ukraine? What is that about? The American labs over there, as if we're dumping in Ukraine all the things that we're- What are you talking about, American labs? The labs that we have in Ukraine. Four? Four.

For development of research. Of what? All kinds of research, agricultural. We have labs in Ukraine? We had. Had? Well, I don't know. They kind of buried it. Do you remember she admitted it? Nuland admitted it? Admitted what? She said we had labs there. Why was that controversial? Were we making anthrax? Maybe. Maybe.

Maybe there were new versions of it. I mean, we don't know. That's the point, Bill. It was buried. Come on. I'm surprised that you... I'm sorry. I don't know that. You're right. We all have gaps in our knowledge. Everything we make in this country for food reasons is bizarre. I mean, cargo, whatever, the way we process beef, the way we make food, it's bizarre.

It's horrible. That's what's going to cause the next pandemic is the way we treat animals. It was one of my first commentaries when this happened because we thought it was the Wuhan wet market and it could be. And if we continue to torture animals as we raise them, I mean, this is not saying you can't have animals.

uh, animal food. I don't think we're ever going to stamp that out. I'm not sure we should. I'm not sure that it's scientific that we absolutely all people don't need some animal protein, but you don't have to torture them and put them in these conditions that,

horrible for them and causes disease. When you stress out animals like that, they're sentient creatures. Yeah, I understand what you're saying. They become sick. And then they put antibiotics in the feed because you've made this sick animal. Now we're getting their sickness and the antibiotics.

Yeah, not just the animals, but I'm worried about the people who are doing the experiments and the way they get the go-aheads from these companies, which is what, in a sense, Bobby Kennedy was talking about, Jr., when he wrote the book, when he was saying the resistance to AIDS until it became a huge problem.

A pharmaceutical giant, that drug that they ended up selling to the marketplace. AZT? Yeah. It was far more expensive than the original home antidotes invented by the homosexual community in San Francisco and various places in Los Angeles. Home antidotes? What? Home antidotes? Home, home, home. They made their own. Like, out of what?

out of their own intuitions about drugs. Oh. And a lot of that was effective. You read the book. It was effective? Yes. Wow. A lot of people didn't die. Well, I mean, AIDS... And Bobby wrote about it. Listen, Bobby is not anti-vaccine. I'm not saying that. I understand. Well, I talked to him for hours about it, so I understand exactly where he is on that.

He's cautious. He's cautious. I agree. Look, if Fauci's here and Bobby Kennedy's here, I am closer to Bobby Kennedy. Good. But that last 20 yards, I'm sorry, you and he go to places I don't go. And that's okay. We're just in different places. Well, maybe we'll get you 10 yards closer. I don't want to be 10 yards closer. Why not? Because I think I know. Look, my mind's always open. I hope so. It is.

But, you know, it has to make sense to me. You've got to check out Ukraine Labs after this. I will. And you have to check out the AZT debate. Okay, I'll do that if you just tell me about the dude who started the rebellion. I remember I was at the beach that night watching it on the TV, the Progozin, the Wagner Group.

Started the rebellion. Okay. So it looked like there was going to be a revolution. I'm like, oh, great. Then maybe Warren Beatty will make another Reds movie about this revolution. Nope. They go home. And then like,

Three months later, dude, his plane crashes. I mean, what are the odds? And somebody said to me, there was like nine people on the plane, and somebody said to me, well, you know, yeah, maybe it was planned, but maybe the other people were also enemies of the state. And I was like, even the stewardess? I mean, you can't really think that that happened.

It's a coincidence. Well, you want to go back to the beginning? Do you think that's a coincidence? Back in 2000, it could have been. It could have been because I've flown some of those private planes in Russia, and some of them are not the best. It could have been, but... Listen, I don't know the answer to that one, and I don't see the motive. He was... Would you say he's a person of interest, Putin? In 2000...

In that era when Putin first came into office, you know, there was that famous poisoning of the... What's his name? The guy from the ex-KGB agent who'd been out of the KGB for 10 years, correct, in London?

You know, you have to look at... You've got to look at the London intelligence agencies, the English ones, MI5 and MI6. You've got to think about what they did in this affair, because this is a dirty story. The guy was working for Brzezinski. The...

I'm sorry, not Brzezinski. Brzezinski was our national security advisor under Carter. I know who you're talking about. Okay, very rich. He employed his own intelligence people. Right. And inside that world of London, when you examined it and you got into it, there was a lot of infighting. People were selling information to each other. There was a factionalism. All kinds of rich men were playing games. And

This guy who was supposedly poisoned by the KGB or Putin, there was no motive because he'd been out of business for 10 years. He was worthless as an agent. He wasn't, had nothing significant. They said revenge because he'd betrayed his country. That's bullshit. Because a lot of Russians at that point were betraying their country, including KGB agents. You think killers need a great reason to kill? Why do you go out and antagonize the world on a case where the wife is going to go around screaming that you did it?

You don't do that. Why? All the time these poisonings occurred, it was always at a key moment when the West was, when there was a rapprochement in the dealings between East and West. And each time it was a setback. It was almost planned.

And I'm convinced that much of this stuff was done to hurt the U.S.-Russia relationship. And that's the key to this whole thing that you and I disagree with, because you've got to get into the reasons. Why has the United States been so suspicious and so destructive and hateful of Russia?

It's almost like racism here. It's like, I'm sorry, it's almost like, hey, the Russians are... Klingons. What? Klingons. Like in Star Trek? Klingons? Whatever. Uh...

I'm not familiar with Star Trek. You don't know who the Klingons are? Even I know that. I don't know. Yeah, I didn't sit around. No, you were in Vietnam. You couldn't watch Star Trek. No, I wasn't. It's true. No, you were. What year did you go? I had a girlfriend once who told me she couldn't see me because she had to see Star Trek. And every time I went over there, I'd try to get a kiss or something. She'd be watching the show. She was so devoted to that show. Wow. Couldn't stand it. Listen.

You have to examine, and I mean really, you're smart enough to go back. I'll send you some books. Just look at the whole, why has the West been obsessed with Russia since, call it the period when Yeltsin was, you know, we almost had Russia. We had Russia from 96. Here's where we probably have some common ground. I, not just I, but I...

I think Strobe Talbert, I think George Keenan, some very big thinkers. George Kennan, yes. Kennan said... Strobe Talbert, no. Okay, you don't know what I'm going to say, which maybe you do, that it was a big mistake to...

Roll NATO up to his doorway. Why have NATO? NATO was there to combat the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union, I've said this many times, the Soviet Union fell, so why are we still having the alliance against you? Of course it's going to get your back up. Now maybe Russia would have become what it was anyway, even if we didn't do that. Because the wounds from living under communism, I think, the psychic wounds,

they do not disappear in a generation. I mean, communism and living in that way were...

You know, the old joke, nobody works, nobody gets paid. I mean, everybody. I was there. I was there in 83. I saw the worst of it because it was falling apart. And people informing on each other. It was horrible. No question about communism was decadent at that point. So it was a horrible place. It didn't work and it fell apart. I got to know Gorbachev very well here in the States and also in Russia. Love him. I feel like he. I spent time with him.

And you like him. I loved him. He was the transition. He was the transition. There are two people in that era, him and de Klerk in South Africa, who managed basically bloodless revolutions, which I got to think is one of the hardest things. Yes, there was no violence. One of the hardest things to pull off is a bloodless revolution. Unbelievable. Revolution, sure. Any idiot can do it. But a bloodless one? It was unbelievable. And Gorbachev hated his own country.

He was wonderful. And he even got, he was tolerant with Reagan. And as you know, Reagan finally came around and Nancy played a role here or the astrologer played a role. We don't really know. But at some point, Reagan really kind of let, and he liked Gorbachev. Gorbachev was a likable man. He was a great presence socially. He was a force. I got to, I knew him right up to the moment he died, actually. I mean, he was there several times.

And I knew Putin. So I was going across town and I talked to Putin did not like Gorbachev because he had the almost stereotypical Russian dislike of Gorbachev because they'd lost Russia. They lost their sovereignty under under him. They think that's what they thought. And Yeltsin was a direct result of Gorbachev.

Well, this weakness. I mean, actually, Yeltsin took advantage of the situation, put himself in with the federal government there and took over. And he was the boss, the new boss. During the Yeltsin period, we have Madeleine Albright. We have all these people who are still talking about supremacy and about democracy.

NATO and how it must continue, the Kagan's are there. All these neo, what do you call, neo-conservatives, don't forget the project for the new American century, the people who sent us into Iraq, they were all very, very anti-Soviet. And many of them still thought it was a Soviet Union. They didn't think that they changed. And Francis Fukuyama, they're not going to change. They're not changing. They're still Russians and they're still communists. And that mentality

carried over. I, as a naive American, went over there. I got to know Putin pretty well.

for an American. And I choose to believe that there is a new path in his thinking. And he exhibited that to me on several occasions, constantly saying that he was not at all a communist. He didn't like communism. He served under it. He saw its evils. He really-- he was intelligent, very intelligent. No, I agree he's intelligent. I'm trying to bring you along into understanding what he felt. Look, first of all, I get it. You know him well.

Well, I'm saying understand him, that he was really working towards integrating Russia into the Western model of this economic growth and prosperity for his people. He's got a funny way of doing that. He did very well. Are you kidding? Are you kidding? He's the opposite. He's like the opposite of Peter the Great, who wanted a window on the West, right? That's why he founded Russia.

St. Petersburg, right? He wanted a window on the West. It's on the Baltic. So he dredged a city out of a swamp. Yes. That's kind of things people did back then. Man, when they wanted to get some shit done, try to get that through Congress. Club Random is brought to you by the audio marketing gurus at Radioactive Media. Okay, if you're in charge of a nationwide company, it's time for you to fess up and tell me, have your recent marketing campaigns been real turkeys?

Keep doing the same thing and your competitors are going to eat you up and serve you as yesterday's leftovers. Time to try something new, different, and groundbreaking that will get noticed by utilizing new platforms to acquire customers and partner with shows like mine. You can enjoy lower CPMs, elevating your brand in a space away from your competitors. Generate up to nine times more leads by combining the power of audio and video channels

with text messaging and generate an ROI as high as 5, 6, or 7 to 1.

The team at Radioactive Media creates campaigns airing nationally on podcasts, terrestrial, satellite, and streaming radio. Club Random has been partnering with Radioactive Media since the beginning with clients such as Signal Wire, heat holders, wine enthusiasts, and more, and they can create a customizable campaign for your company's needs. Radioactive believes so much in the power of audio marketing, they put their money where their mouths are by using it themselves, right here, right now.

For a limited time, get it on their Black Friday Cyber Month deal and receive a pair of tickets to see me live in person when you lock in your first campaign.

Whether you have a great business to business product or service or incredible consumer product, these guys will take your business to astronomical heights. Go to RadioactiveMedia.com or text the word random to 511-511. Discover how audio marketing can surpass your current strategies with new and innovative ways that sound better.

Go to RadioactiveMedia.com or text RANDOM to 511-511. Text RANDOM to 511-511 today. Terms, conditions, message, and data rates may apply. There's nothing more annoying than finding the right thing to wear for the right occasion. Isn't it amazing how it's a huge pain in the ass to find clothes to put over your ass? And if you're doing something in the day and need to transition to night, you start the process all over again.

That's where Roan comes in. Roan removes the hassle. Men's closets were due for a radical reinvention, and Roan stepped up to the challenge. Roan's commuter collection is the most comfortable, breathable, and flexible set of products known to man. And here's why. Roan's comfortable four-way stretch fabric provides breathability and flexibility that leaves you free to enjoy what life throws your way from your commute

to work to your 18 holes of golf. With Roan's wrinkle release technology, wrinkles disappear as you stretch and wear the products. It's that easy. With Gold Fusion anti-odor technology, you'll be smelling fresh and clean all day long. And on top of that, Roan is 100% machine washable so you can ditch the dry cleaner altogether. The commuter collection can get you through any workday and straight into whatever comes next.

Head to roan.com slash random and use promo code random to save 20% off your entire order. That's 20% off your entire order when you head to r-h-o-n-e-e dot com slash random. It's time to find your corner office comfort.

Did you know that around 46 million turkeys are eaten on Thanksgiving each year in the U.S.? Think about all of the people involved in getting that turkey from the farm to your table. The turkey farm laborers, food safety inspectors, food production workers, and more. The good news is that after eating all that turkey, that uncle who keeps insisting the election was stolen might finally pass out.

It's not easy to find people with the specific skills required for these jobs. But if you need to hire for these jobs or any other jobs, there's only one place to go, ZipRecruiter. And right now, you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com slash random.

So how does it all work? ZipRecruiter sends your job to 100 plus job sites so you reach more of the right people. ZipRecruiter's powerful technology does the work for you. It scans thousands of resumes to find great matches for your job. ZipRecruiter lets you invite the most qualified people to apply to your job to help you stand out amongst the competition.

So if you're hiring, discover what ZipRecruiter brings to the table. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Just go to this exclusive web address right now to try ZipRecruiter for free. ZipRecruiter.com slash random. Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com slash random. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire.

Okay, so Putin brought a lot. Putin is the kind of, I mean, just going into Ukraine was sort of like, oh, come on, we're jumping way ahead. Let's go back to that period when he came into office. Yeltsin left the country a disaster. He hates the West. He's not trying to jump into a conclusion again. I saw no evidence of that. I saw respect for the West, admiration for the West.

Where he's at now may be a different place. He says the West is decadent. It's funny. That's what he said since the fallout, since the big fallout. There are some things he says that, like, are not that far afield from things that people over here, including myself, say, like talking about, like, some things in our society are decadent.

You know, when he talks about, but he, of course, goes too far and he doesn't really understand it because he lives in Russia. But they see the West as decadent. Yes. And they see, I think the Republicans, the Trump people, the Fox News people who are always sucking Russia's dick. I feel like they like Russia because it's the last white place on earth.

It's the one, and that's far-fetched because so many Republicans have expressed a hatred for Russia and desire to... Not the new batch. Mike McConnell, all those people, they're not Russian. Mike McFowell, all these people and the Republicans, they're so anti-Russian still. Nothing has changed. The point was I was trying to make... Trump wasn't anti-Russian. The point I was trying to make to you was that

Russia was broke. It was finished. The people were dying 10 years. Men were dying 10 years earlier. Women were dying seven years earlier. The age expectancy, it was a horrible joy when...

Putin put it back on its feet. He took a lot of people out of poverty. He gave its dignity back, its respect from 2000 to 2000 now. And now they but you have to allow for the growth of that. And when that started to happen by 2007, when we went to the Munich conference, when the West started to really think about Putin and really think.

See, you know, this is not our goal. We don't want to have Russia back on its feet. We don't want a sovereign Russia. We don't want an independent Russia. We want to strip them of their sovereignty so that we can do what? So that we can move into the Eurasian continent, which is rich, rich, rich, and Russia is to thousands of natural resources, so many. If we can get Russia...

either under Yeltsin or somebody else, get them in our pocket, we'll own Russia. Wall Street will own Russia. That was really the motivation to keep moving and why they turned on Putin.

I mean, I wouldn't put it past Wall Street for wanting to own Russia or anything. Yes. I mean, that's what they do. They want to own things. You know, anytime there's a vacuum like there is after the Soviet Union fell, I mean, all sorts of vultures are going to fly in. Well, your hero Gorbachev, I talked to him about this, and he said exactly that. You know, at the beginning, he didn't like Putin because he thought he was dark and, you know, whatever. Putin? Dark? Oh, come on. No.

Those lifeless doll eyes. I had fun with them. Anyway, but listen. When he's at dinner, does he ever send poison over to another table? Yeah, he asks me. It's from the gentleman. And he waves. I can't get to you. You're a comedian still. You have to. OK. OK.

But I'm saying Gorbachev said I saw I saw him. I saw him about two years before he died again. And he said, this is wrong. What we're doing in Ukraine with the coup d'etat that we America pushed in Ukraine in 2016. That was a big mistake and really set off this whole new problem that we that has resulted in this crisis.

ridiculous unnecessary war it's horrible it's unnecessary it's it they put it off Newland and your neoconservatives and those people who plotted from the beginning I believe from the beginning to get Ukraine here is a divided country we have East and West it's so it I mean people when the war started and there was some talk about Battlefield nukes about what Battlefield nukes nukes

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, you know, which are still nukes. It's not like... Okay, and there was a lot... And some people are still worried this could trigger World War III because it's a proxy war between America and Russia. But it's really World War I. It's just this senseless... It's so depressing that here in 2023 we can still fight a war like that. Yes, it is. It's very dangerous. It's so depressing. And also just on a humanitarian level that...

People can't do better than slogging their way over inches of land. They're fighting over... Caveman time. Caveman. They've destroyed whatever they're fighting over.

So they're fighting over wastelands. But I think you understand that Russia felt threatened and its security was at stake, that NATO scared the shit out of it. And you've accepted that. I agree. And here they are at the doorstep of Russia. There was no need at that moment. It should have been the olive. There were moments for the olive branch and there were moments for the sword. And they miscalculated. Who's they?

The people in power at the time. The neoconservatives. Well, whoever it was. Was it George Bush I? Yes. Well, he was one of them, but... But I think it was bipartisan. Under Obama, it continued. Yeah. I didn't know this. I voted for Biden. I...

i thought he would be as an older man a wiser man but i didn't realize how much he hated the soviet the old soviet union well the soviet union was a hateable place yes but not not the people he was to an extreme he voted in in many ways

Is it your personal encounters with Russian people that is the providence of your great loyalty to Russia, do you think? Where does it come from? No, I'm trying to... But where does it come from? You know I'm a dramatist and I'm trying to tell the truth. But why Russia? Of all the countries in the world... Because it's the most important. Because we have... The United States has chosen... Did you feel that way always? No, no. Always since I...

I went to Russia in '83 because I was curious. I wrote a beautiful script about the dissident movement. I was on the side of the dissidents. A lot of them were Jewish. A lot of them, as you know, suffered greatly in psychological institutions. They were given Thorazine. I met quite a few of those people. And I hated the Soviet...

regime at that point. Then Gorbachev came along, and you begin to see that there's another side to this thing. Then I meet him, I go to Russia again, and I meet Putin several times. Actually, I went there for Snowden. It was my movie I did in 2016. Yes, loved it. 2016, and Snowden was a, he's a character, but he lives in Moscow. Do you communicate with him? I can, but I... He's in Moscow. Yeah, he's in Moscow. He's become a family man. I mean, you talk about

Standing up for what you believe in. And this is also something I told this to Bobby Kennedy when he was here. Like, I don't agree with everything you said. And I said to him, you know, your father, I don't think, would agree with everything you say. But he'd be very proud of you.

Because you talk about sticking by your gun. Yes. But Edward Snowden, willing to, I mean, live in Russia, give up your country. That is a sacrifice. You might not agree with everything, but in general. What about Julian Assange, too? I mean, these people stand for something. They mean something. They have the most integrity, far more than any American political leader that we have. We have no leadership that way. We don't have anybody who stands for it. John Kennedy spoke about

peace. That's what I'd like to see American leaders talking about, peace. Where is Julian Assange now? Julian's in London still at that Belmarsh prison. He

He's in a prison in London. Yeah, horrible. He was in a Ecuadorian. Yeah, that was, yeah, before. Right, I remember. And they were taping him, as you know, through the Spanish intelligence firm. They were even planning to kill him. I'm not sure about this, but there was a plan to kill him. Well, Pamela Anderson used to visit him there for sex, so I hope they taped that.

We could get him. Who visited him? Pam Anderson. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I met his wife, and I got to know her a little bit. Sarah, she's a beautiful woman, and he has two children with her. I met Julian before that when he was a bit more cocky, and he was a little, I'd say he was arrogant. Yeah, so what? So Snowden. Well, to do things on that level, to be up that high on that high a tightrope,

Of course you have to be a little cocky. Well, he was taking on the empire, and that was a huge risk. Oh, I mean... And he didn't... I don't know he saw this coming. No, I... They hounded him to the... They're hounding him still...

They got Snowden because Snowden was in a tough position in Hong Kong because the extradition was going to, the Chinese were, they didn't know how the Chinese would play it, if they were going to extradite him from Hong Kong or not. They have a separate system there. So Snowden has to flee. Julian arranges for him to go to Ecuador, first of all, and then he, I think it was Ecuador, and he doesn't get there because the plane goes through Moscow and ends up,

The plane goes from Moscow to Cuba and from Cuba to Ecuador and so forth. So he ends up in Moscow, but the United States knows he's in the air, so they take away his passport. Now he's no longer a citizen of any country in the world, so he's stranded in the Moscow airport for, I forgot, two, three weeks? Two weeks, at least. Two weeks he sleeps in that hotel in the Moscow airport. And then, of course, he wasn't very happy about it, but Putin did give him...

and said, "Here you're a free man. You can do what you want." Does Snowden have a decent life in Russia? Does he, like, have a girlfriend? Now he does. He has a citizenship, I believe. You can have a dual citizenship. Is he, like, married? Oh, yeah. Didn't you follow all this stuff? I'm trying to remember. He had a beautiful girlfriend. In America, the pole dancer.

Sheila... I didn't know her. Shailene Woodley played her. Oh, Shailene Woodley played her in a movie? Oh, in your movie. She was an amateur pole dancer. Well, okay, but that was the eye-catching part of it. No, she was a woman who tried to... Okay, so did she go with him to Russia? Yes. Oh, so they're still together. She went there after he was barred from the U.S. I mean, he can't go...

He can't even go, if you remember when the United States brought down the plane of Evo Morales, the Bolivian president, and he flew out of Moscow, they brought down that plane in Vienna. Well, that one they brought down. But the other dude. Snowden can't go anywhere because the United States has its claws everywhere. You know, sovereignty, you can't go to Egypt. So here he is in Moscow.

He took his medicine. He got used to the place. He's probably learning Russian, and it's hard to learn. Right. And he's made his way for the last-- since the movie in 2016 was-- I'd say in the last eight years, he's become much friendlier and understanding. Do you think there'll be a day when he can come home?

I don't think so. He's got his girl. And his wife, his girlfriend. Do they have kids? I think they have certainly one child. I think they have a second child. She was the only chick who spoke English. I mean, what's he going to do? No, I'm kidding. No, a lot of people in Russia speak English. They do? Yes. Wow. Especially in Moscow. Come on.

Moscow's wild, I hear. Moscow's a great city. As far as like a party? Of course not. It's like New York. It's like a party, like a giant party town. It's a sophisticated city. Right. And great parties, by the way. That's what I'm saying. The Russians do party. Oh, I remember when you partied. Remember when we were out a lot?

Like, what the fuck were we doing? You're talking about the 70s. No, no, I'm talking about the 90s when we would be here. Like, I don't know. I just used to go out way more. Do you go out now? Well, I was on my third wife. Oh, my second wife. So by the 2000s, I got my third wife. So it's a different situation when you have wives. I plotted this. So in between the wives, I had a lot of fun. And do you feel like you finally got it right, the wife thing? Yeah, I did. I found a Korean woman and I just...

Oh, she's Korean. Perfect for me. Perfect for me. And do you say it like Korean has something to do with why she's perfect for you? I think so. Is it a cultural? I do have a fondness for the Korean genes. Always. It's funny. When I was a little boy... Do they get jealous of the Russians? Oh, come on. Who do you like better? No cheap jokes here. In the 50s... It's all cheap jokes. In the 50s, somebody gave me a...

for some reason under the Christmas tree, was a Korean doll.

A little Korean doll with, you know, the chopped hair and all that. Oh, yeah, sure. Peasant blood. And I loved that doll for some reason. I don't know why. You know, boys were not supposed to play. That's your rosebud. That was my rosebud. And it ended up being the girl, the woman. Okay, so that explains the Korean rosebud. What's the Russian rosebud? Gorbachev, probably because I began to understand through his...

He was a compassionate man. Right. You know, he was very generous. It's amazing what he pulled. I mean, I'm going to put in that category Obama getting elected the first black president. Like, there are certain things that are like... No, Obama prosecuted Assange. You know, come on, you can't say he didn't.

Obama was a preacher of the warfare state. That's not even what I said. What I said was getting elected. Yeah, I liked him then, but something happened between November and January. You know that.

Obama was a hard ass on national security issues. I mean, he was not afraid to also drone a wedding. He totally was not shy about, you know, and it's not funny, but I was scared. I think he was scared of assassination. I think he was doing his job as he thought it was done best. And I've heard from many people, if you've got elected president,

They take you in a little room and they tell you some things that would fucking curl your toes. Yes, exactly. And so you tend to like err on the side of... Caution. And killing, quite frankly. Well, that's not good. I mean, you know what... They shouldn't be able to take you in a room and twist your mind. Of course not. That's like brainwashing. That's not good. You know Stalin's famous line, no person, no problem, right? As a way of handling problems. What happens to our presidents when they get elected? They just...

Carter, the same thing. You know, Brzezinski turned him around. Carter had a much more humane approach to the world than what happened. Brzezinski, who's Polish, turned him around completely on Russia. And what did he do? And if you remember, Carter's the guy who said when Russia invaded so-called Afghanistan, he said this is the biggest threat since World War II. Yes. That was a little exaggerated.

why would he say that well well mitt romney turned out to be so we ended up supporting all the mujahideen all the radicals every all the islamics that are radical were put in place and supported by america oh we don't let's not forget that i don't think that came back to haunt us on 2000. i don't i don't forget that and that's and that's you know

probably the thing in the untold history of the United States that would catch people the most is your prosecution of that thesis, which is totally true. But of course, people in decades past, centuries past, they were just more brutal about everything. And we were. We were like, we're the big swinging dick. I remember. I was there, remember? Yeah. It was cruel.

Oh, well, every war is cruel, of course. But, you know, cruel you expect in war, it's especially galling when it's pointless, when the war is pointless. They all are, in a sense. World War I was pointless. World War I is especially pointless. I mean, about fucking... Without World War I, we don't have World War II, so... Yes, you're right.

Right. That was another point in the book. Yeah. And we don't have the Cold War because the Cold War is also a fiction. I mean... And that came in after 1944. You've seen, like, the chart of, like, the players in the countries that got involved in World War I were all, like...

Kings and cousins. Yeah, you're right. They all knew each other. Like Russia, the Russian dude and the Austrian dude and the English dude. And the Russian and English. It was about cousinly squabbles between these people. It was also economic pressure.

You know, the Germans scared the British. The British were, wanted to be, the British have a huge responsibility for the mess this world is in. You know, you've got to look at the British Empire as a,

as a member here, as a member, still existed in its own ghost-like way. See, I would... I mean, I understand the great Russian soul and all that, and I think the Russian people are probably soul-to-the-earth people, although, like any abused child, they're rather cynical now, which can be dangerous. But I would have to go, if I had to pick between the British and the Russians, I think I would go with the British. Of course, because you speak English and because you're Anglophile. Well, no, also because of...

Yes, culture, that's true. And I like the British culture. There's much good things in it. But there's also an empire aspect. I mean, Russia has still not gotten democracy. They went from czar. What do you mean?

I mean, this is the biggest American litmus test is you're not a democracy like we are. This is nonsense. We expect everybody to be the same. We're supposed to be Americans? Come on. This is so arrogant of Americans. We're falling off the edge with democracy, I agree, mostly because of the right. No, mostly because of our inbuilt arrogance. But we still have it. Whereas they went from czars to commissars.

to now Putin. They went from one basic dictatorship to another. Now this is the third one in a row. It's not a democracy. Bill, you're wrong. And you can't say anything. You're wrong. If Putin was not, there is a form of

There is a form of consent and people don't understand that he would not be the boss in Russia. Let's say number one, and he can't control everything. He would not even be the boss if the people turned on him. It would be it's it's changed. I mean, it's not Stalin time. You can't kill people the way you do in the or send them to gulags. It doesn't work that way.

It has a legal structure, and it may not be always enforced and all that, but it does work in its own way. So if he doesn't have the consent of the people, he wouldn't last. That's my point. He wouldn't last two months. So I'm saying in Ukraine war, whatever you think, he does have the consent of his culture. When they blew up that bridge, the Crimean Bridge. Yeah. They didn't blow it up. They damaged it.

They damaged it. They tried to set off the bomb in the middle of the bridge, right? And that bridge is like 13 miles long. I mean, it connects Russia. It's the only thing that connects Russia physically to this other country besides the front lines. So what, like you think the guy who had to tell Putin that wasn't scared? Which guy?

Whatever guy had to go in and say, Excellency, I have some news that... Oh, you're thinking that. No, he's much more modern than that. They don't bow down. He walks into a room. He's businesslike, put it that way. And he gets it. You create the czar effect around him.

I didn't ever sense that. I sensed he was a very practical man and wanted to get down, a truth teller in the sense that he'd get to business. Let's get to the essence of this situation. What is your problem with me? What's my problem with you? Then the United States has not been willing to talk to him.

This is true. You don't give this... At 2007 in Munich, he made the point very clearly. And do you remember I showed that in the documentary? McCain was sneering at him during the... All the Americans in the audience were...

This Russian, he's telling us that the world is not working the way it should. You know, he's telling us the Russian viewpoint. It was so arrogant an attitude to Putin as if he's just another Russian. What is it about Russians? Is it Slavic? I can't figure out why the hate. It's his actions. It's because he's Slavic. Because we have overwhelming evidence of things that he has done. Like what?

Like killing journalists. No, I disagree. Okay. Why kill a journalist? The woman who was killed... Why kill a journalist? Because they write... Because you don't like the review. The woman who was killed, and we know this if you really follow the story, was killed by Chechens. And that was at a time of that civil war. Oh, he couldn't have a... Anna. You think Putin couldn't have a Chechen henchman?

The motive is the motive. You don't want to. No, you don't. You don't kill a journalist. It doesn't make sense. Don't kill lawyers. It makes perfect sense if you don't want them to write shit about you. You're buying into the Magnitsky Act. Do you remember Magnitsky? It doesn't make perfect sense. Do you remember the guy in London who's always making those accusations that they killed my lawyer, Magnitsky?

in the prison thing, and they passed the Magnitsky Act in Congress. It was one of the first hostile actions. That, to me, was completely staged by the guy. Bill Browder was his name. He's still alive, a multi-billionaire. He stole a lot of money in Russia, and he got away with it.

and he's but mikhail kordakovsky didn't get away with it and he probably didn't do it they put he was in jail yeah but he did a lot of too you know all those guys how do you know they were very proud and very arrogant they stole a lot of money from the government and they go and putin put it back together the best he could okay all right so i mean

you're saying that all the evidence i'd like to see the evidence and discuss it let's discuss it let's go with mi5 and have a discussion let's let's let's really examine these murders so to speak really because i think putin has given up there's no point in projecting and protesting he's given up on the way people he's given up on the world done that and that's so good we should stay

Gorbachev was, as you say, is willing to make a deal. He was a wonderful negotiator. So Putin is too. He's a great negotiator. Give him a chance.

But nothing can happen until the war ends. But why does Biden, not even, why does Biden, before he gets elected, call him a thug and all these kind of names, before he's elected? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard for a presidential candidate. Why don't you keep your options open? It's about the bodies on the sidewalk. The bodies on the sidewalk are not proven. You haven't proven it to me, goddammit. Can I take a leak now? Yes.

You mean Putin was like, we have got to do something about this problem of people fooling out windows. I think the floors are too slippery by the window. That is what we must work on. The Club Random merch line is up and ready to go. Get your Club Random T-shirts, hats, hoodies and glassware at Club Random dot com.

You admire Gorbachev. I think you have to understand that Gorbachev changed his mind about Putin and came around and he wrote about it. But no one in the West would listen. He said, Russia has got to, has a major problem with NATO. And what they're doing is betraying the deal I made with Baker back in 1990, what was it, six or seven? James Baker. That's very important. But

What's happening now is really, really dangerous to me, and it should be to all of us. All Americans are not aware. Biden has set a policy of supporting Ukraine with its constantly rising demands for more and more weapons, of course, the Ukrainians, or whatever you want to think about their government. There are a lot of problems in that government and a lot of bad people, a lot of bad apples, a lot of, frankly, Nazis. And

The problem is that Biden's- Nazis. Yes, the Nazis. Nazis. I've heard that before. I've met quite a few of them, actually, because I've been... Ukrainians are all over London. They're all over New York. Wow, that's full Putin. What? Nazis?

OK, call them sympathizers, call them what you want. But Ukraine was a Nazi sympathizer nation, the Western Ukraine. Completely so. I think Croatia more than Ukraine. Galicia, come on. No, there were definitely pockets of people all through Europe who were thrilled that someone was trying to kill all the Jews. They attacked Poland. They killed Jews constantly. They killed Polish people. And they killed Russians. Everybody did it.

Everybody is always killing the Jewish people. But this was an organized, it was organized. Come on, Stephen Bandera, who they respect and they have statues in Ukraine. They put medals out in his name. Was it pure out and out? What I'm trying to say is Biden is on the wrong path because his strategy, and it's been asked of him, what the strategy is, why are we supporting Ukraine? He doesn't come up with a reasonable answer. The best answer he's come up with is,

We can Russia. That's what we want to do. We want to weaken Russia. And that's what the defense is. His answer is stand up for democracy and draw a line that we don't in the 21st century democracy in Ukraine invade other sovereign nations. What democracy? I know the guys who were thrown in jail by Zelensky. Give me a break.

Zelensky was, okay, this thing is a fraud. The whole thing is a fraud. It's not a fraud. It's not even hard to understand. Here's what it, you know what, let me go through the history because I'm sure you know it. But Kiev, I've said this on my show, people don't like to hear it. Kiev was the first part of Russia. Kiev and Russia. Like, I think it was founded in like 889 or something like that. Okay.

That was the first. Then, history, lots of people trod on different lands. That's the problem in the Middle East, that they're both on the same land. Over the years, Kievan Russia, it passed to, like, the Lithuanians, the Mongolians, attacked the Mongols. Yeah, it's a bastardized country. And then it was after, like, in the 17th century, the Tsar, and then it was...

its own country until the Soviet Union incorporated, but it was always in that orbit. If they want to live as their own country, which they do, and they want to look West in a way Putin does not, or at least that's their perception, shouldn't they be able to? I don't think Putin has a problem with that. The problem was that in the Maidan coup d'etat, the government that came into power was no longer neutral. It was

fervently anti-Russian, fervently, and went after Russians. The language treated them like inferiors, and in Donetsk and Luhansk,

killed what they called separatists, who were in fact people who wanted to preserve the Russian culture. I mean, this is the issue that comes up so often. It's a huge issue. In European history, it certainly was the run-up to World War II, is that in one country will be a minority population

From another country. He's not a minority in this case. No. He knows provinces. Russians living in Ukraine is a minority in the whole country, but not in those regions. Yes. That always gives somebody a pretext to go in and say, well, I just want to be with my bros who are really us. Oh, come on, Bill. No, that's it. And we want to, they should be protected. The separatists asked Putin to take over. Wait, I forgot who the separatists were. In 2000s.

They were the ones who resisted the Zelensky, the Zelensky-Poroshenko regime. They didn't want to be. First of all, there was a coup d'etat. That's not democratic, Bill. They got rid of a guy. Yeah, Ukraine is a hugely corrupted country. Absolutely. All of a sudden it's more corrupt under Yanukovych than it is under Zelensky. No.

Poroshenko, they're all bad. We do have issues with the Ukrainian. I mean, they always ranked in the world like rankings of corruption. 156. You know, very, you know, I don't think they took home the gold, but they were always in the conversation. You know what I mean? They were. So, no, that has not gone away. The Maidan referendum thing.

The students, I'm all for them. They were protesting against the repression, the corruption of the government. There was a lot of built up... But what happened... You mean the Orange Revolution? That was back in 2000. Is that what you're talking about? No, that was back in 2002. And by the way, that happened and...

Putin was okay with it. They wanted to do that. You know, he accepted that. But what happened in 2016 was that that coup was definitely pointed at Russia. And the...

If you remember correctly, Yanukovych, who was the president of Ukraine, was negotiating with the European Union for a better deal than he was getting from Russia. That was the whole point. And at the end of the day, at the end of the day, the EU cut him off. They didn't give him what he wanted. So he came back to Ukraine and he said, let's give it a halt. We're not going to rush into the EU deal because it's not a good deal. Who was the leader? Can you listen? I'm listening.

But I got to get the players right. Yeah. Yanukovych, he was the president. Was he the one with the fucked up face? No, that was a similar name, but no, he was back earlier. That's who he was running against. A super fucked up face because he was poisoned by certainly not Putin. Why not Ukrainians? Why not? I mean, let's be honest. There's a lot of infighting in Ukraine. You know that. I mean, we'll never know. You automatically assume that

Putin is responsible for everybody. He's like a James Bond film. Dr. No does this, he does that. It's exactly like a James Bond film. But he's not. He's exactly like a Bond villain. He should be stroking a cat every time you see him. Exactly. He's exactly a Bond villain. You see, that's where your problem is. He has a billion dollar... It's easier for you to call him a cliché like that, characterize him like that. It's easy.

But Gorbachev came around, and he was, you admit, that was a man who was closer to your own liking. Unbelievable. I'm telling you, de Klerk, Obama, and what?

Okay, go back to... I'm just talking about as political skill to thread those needles. I should write a book if I was that kind of person, which I'm not, and somebody else should. That'd be a great book. De Klerk, Obama, and Gorbachev. The people who like... What about Mandela?

Well, yes. But I mean, what the clerk did was different. I'm talking about a sort of Mandela assumed them. Yeah. I mean, you could broaden this out to lots of people. But the harder thing I think to do was to get that transition from, OK, we're this bad ass, horrible apartheid country. And now we're just going to give that up. Yeah.

that's a pretty hard sell. Can you imagine if you tried to do something like that to the right wing in our country? Yeah. I don't know what you're talking about exactly. You're talking about...

what de Klerk was able to do, to have a bloodless revolution, where he somehow convinced-- - And Gorbachev had one, and we accept that. And also I'd like to point out to you that when Donetsk and Luhansk asked for Russian, they wanted their own sovereignty. They wanted to be autonomous, not sovereign.

autonomous and that's all they wanted but they were there people were being killed left and right in those provinces because they were considered terrorists and separatists at that point they asked Putin to protect them and they would go under a Russian protection

Putin refused. You have to remember, Putin refused. He didn't want it. He said, look, we'll try to help you, but you've got to help yourselves first. And that's what they did. They fought like dog and cat for the next six years. And they were killed. They say 7,000, maybe 8,000 people were killed in those provinces by the Ukrainians. And those were dirty assassinations, most of them. Let me ask you this.

What? Okay. Do you think there's too many countries in the world or not enough? Like, when you hear about places like this that want to be autonomous, Scotland wants to be autonomous, the Basque... If they're willing to die for it, yes. So you think there should be more countries? There's too many times we smush people together. The people who are willing to die for it. Like Belgium. They fucking don't want to be together. The Flemish and the Walloon. Well, I don't know about that. You have to go there. No, I know it.

You spend a lot of time eating-- No, but I'm telling-- Okay. No, it's waffles, french fries, and waffles.

The Crimean people, it's an interesting story. You should see my documentary, Ukraine on Fire, because there's footage of the Crimean reaction to all this. Is this the new one? No, that was 2016 I did that. Okay. 17. So what's the one you have now? The nuclear now. The nuclear now. Let's get to it. I want to finish this story. Okay, go ahead. So Crimea...

saw the Maidan thing happening and also it wasn't democratic. They were just being all of a sudden dictated to by anti-Russian people in Ukraine. They didn't want anything partisan to do with that. There was not one drop of violence. Russia was there by treaty. They had 17,000 troops in Crimea. They were there by treaty and they

inherited in a sense the situation because crimean is russian and at the end of the day it's not really part of ukraine it was given to ukraine as a birthday gift by a drunk crew no he won it in a poker game okay a drunk cruise chef uh you you're admitting half this story so the truth is okay crimea had the bloodless revolution that was a big deal and we showed all that

how the Ukrainian troops were marching towards Crimea. These are conscripts. They were in Crimea. They stayed in the barracks. They didn't come out to enforce the Ukrainian point of view on the Crimeans. The Crimeans then had a referendum, which the West mocked. They have my utmost admiration.

I just want to finish. Boy, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Okay, I'll just wrap it all up quickly. The point is, where is this leading? Where are we now? Ukraine is getting its ass kicked. So many Ukrainians have died. So many have moved out of the country. And Zelensky continues with this hollow government and continuing the charade of Western arms, Western arms. Give me everything you have.

It's not going to end well. It is kind of an open salad bar with us. It's a sewer. It's a sewer. And Biden has got no policy except weaken Russia. That's not going to work. The point is, Russia is not interested in gaining Ukraine. It's...

interested in securing the autonomy of those provinces in the East. So if I say, okay, I agree with you on everything, can we move on? So there's no... Just tell me what the safe word is. They keep saying Russia invades Ukraine. I agree. They don't want Ukraine. So true. Who wants Ukraine? It's a fucking mess. It's a sewer. As I've always said. Anyway, the point is, it's not going anywhere. So what's the risk? Is that Biden takes it...

Biden, who's, I don't know what he is anymore, but what if he takes it too seriously and he wants to go further and further and further and it becomes a world war situation? Then it becomes very serious. He's not taking it anywhere. He just gave bigger missiles to Ukraine. Okay, but they're fighting a defensive war.

They're not taking it anywhere. It was an offensive war because they went into Ukraine with this plan. The neocon used Ukraine as a proxy, as a proxy situation to beat Russia down. And in order to defeat Russia, take its resources, bring...

bring to Wall Street the riches that exist in Eurasia. This is a huge move. I think you should make a whodunit. And it sets the tone for their Chinese. Our next step would be the Chinese. I want to see you make a whodunit. So we go after Russia, then we take China, and then we take the world. A whodunit movie. What? A whodunit movie. It's a whodunit. No, I want to see you make one. And at the end, when we find out whodunit, it makes no sense. Very funny. Here you go, here you go.

That's pretty good. Wow, he's a hard judge there. I got a pretty good out of him. I'm thrilled. You just made my night, Oliver. Bill, Bill, Bill. Hey. Nuclear energy, okay. Yes. And again, it's one of those that it shouldn't be political. We should make a dispassionate

logical decision on this. And where I have fallen is close to where you are, I think, which is, yes, when it goes bad, it goes very, very bad.

We just can have to find a way so that it never goes very, very bad. There must be a way to do both. I don't agree with that. Oh, I thought that's where you were. No, no. That's the rap on nuclear. When it goes bad, it goes very, very bad. No, the worst that we've ever... Yeah, because that's what's happened. The very worst that happened was Chernobyl. And that was highly over-exaggerated considering the damage to the casualties. Nothing lives there.

It's actually a very rich nature has come back, and it's full. I could get you an apartment.

So cheap. No, look, Chernobyl is over-exaggerated. And it was used by the environmentalists to kill off, and the oil business was used to kill off any development in Western Europe as well as America. They closed, they didn't build anything, basically, after Chernobyl. And then, of course, they lied about Three Mile Island. It was not at the disaster that was pictured at all. Nobody got hurt. It was the containment structure worked.

And then in Fukushima, it's a joke, no one died. It was all the tsunami killed 18,000 people and they blamed it on nuclear. It's a nuclear disaster. This bullshit. It was all the Japanese built. The structure was not as it should have been with a wall next to the ocean and so forth and so on. Meanwhile,

Fukushima is okay. Japan closed down its reactors stupidly, and now they're back in business gradually. Unfortunately, Japan took a big step back. I guess this is what would define us if we did a show is,

me playing the part of the centrist. Because like, I don't see the problem with acknowledging that when a nuclear power does have an accident, it is bad. What about your, I just, What about carbon, the carbon, Why, why,

the apology... Union Carbide in India. Why the... 20,000 people died in India from the Union Carbide gas accident. All so bad. What about Exxon? What about all the things that happened with oil, gas, coal? They have nothing to do with the question I'm asking. How many people die every year from coal? I mean, probably estimated 15,000, 20,000. That's completely irrelevant. We're talking about whether it's... Far more dangerous. We're talking about a fundamental question, whether we should

include nuclear in our energy portfolio? Absolutely. In France's energy portfolio, it's 90%. Yes. Okay, so that's, I would say, the far end of it, where we could go as a country, or we could do what we basically have been doing for a couple of decades now, which is

saying, no, this is too dangerous. We've seen the accidents. It's just, yes, it's great unless something goes wrong. Another fear story. Another fear story. But why can't we acknowledge the part that is just, again, true? It is bad if it goes bad. But not very bad. Well, that's, I think, very bad. I

I think nuclear waste in the ocean is very bad. And that's what we're getting with Fukushima. No, no. Yes, they are. Japan said they're releasing it. I could drink tritium. It's got the radioactivity of a banana. I think you have been drinking it. I'm going to. I'm going to bring it to you. You know, it's as dangerous as your scotch. No, seriously. Tritium has been over, another one, overhyped, as has radioactive waste.

All these stories. That's what this film is about, knocking out the fear.

coming down to facing what happened, what's the reality. And once we accept that, we've blown, we blew something major. America would be nuclearized. I'll be the spokesman here for, I think we should be using nuclear power, but I'm not going to lie to the people I'm trying to get to sign up for the program and say, folks, even if it goes bad, it's a big nothing. Nuclear waste, I don't know what you've heard about it, but I had some for lunch.

You know, I'm just not going there. So just admit. Well, I wish you'd seen a movie. I will see the movie.

We talk about nuclear waste, we go into the details, and we go into the specifics. Again, specifics, specifics. And the truth is, radioactive waste is one of the best features of nuclear energy. How much nuclear waste after 60, 70 years in America do we have? We could fit into a Walmart. It's not a lot. Can I ask you a personal question? It's a concentrated medium. It's an energy that's very concentrated.

I love waste as much as the next guy. Compared to gas, coal, oil. I can talk about it all night. But, like, why don't you make...

I mean, for us fans, you know, I'm just the young man in the 22nd row, okay? For us fans, you spend all this time making documentaries. Why don't you make what you do so well? Make a movie that's a great entertainment, always about something. That's why your movies are great. They're not just pointless. Yeah.

But you make it entertaining, which I feel like that's what Hollywood forgot to do in the last decade or so. You have a good point. They make things that are just ponderous, and it's all about, look what good people we are. It used to be, look what good product we make. Well, I'll tell you why I didn't. It was harder to get actors. It was harder to get the financing for those kind of movies. Right.

I'm sorry, they killed me. You're right. They killed me. I made a film called Nixon. I really broke my soul. So awesome, Nixon. I really was a big film, and it was three hours and ten minutes, and they treated it like... Every minute is awesome. It was tough. It was very tough, the reaction to that. Also, the casting of Anthony Hopkins. It's hard to make those movies. Brilliant. It's hard to make those movies. Anthony Hopkins, right? So what I'm saying... No one would have thought of that. And Snowden didn't do that well. He wasn't even American.

Yeah. Why don't you ever take a compliment? Why don't you ever like, you never want to talk about your triumphs? Oh, I love Nixon. I love it. It's really one of my favorite movies. And Anthony Hopkins? I love him. Right. I'm guessing that was your idea. Yes.

Okay, I'm saying, most people wouldn't have thought of him for that. Well, they wanted Nicholson, and they wanted Warren Beatty. Wrong, wrong. I know. Right. And I went to them both, because obedient servant that I am to Hollywood, I ended up waiting for them and waiting. No. It didn't work. I mean...

And I was losing Anthony, so studio wouldn't do it, and I changed studios. They only see the surface, but what you saw was that Anthony Hopkins, as we then saw with Hannibal Lecter, has this malevolence right underneath the surface. I think he's probably a lovely guy, but there's a little part of him that might be burying little boys in his backyard or something, and that comes through, and that's what you needed for a guy like Nixon, right?

He was seething, seething with inner worms. I mean, that whole thing about, like, he used to drive Pat around when she was on dates with other guys. Yeah, that's amazing. That a guy could... He had an inferiority complex. I mean, that's like Ted Cruz land, you know? That's, like, just...

No, it was at that time it was harder to get a date, you know. And it was, and you have to understand it was an impression. Or you could see it very romantically in saying, you know, he thought Pat was the girl for him and he was willing to do anything, you know. Yeah, but he never made her happy in the end. That's what's sad about the story. I'm going by the way she projected. I bet everybody has a good first year, right? Yeah.

He was a driven, possessed man and sort of

That's what was interesting about the character. Right. When I made the Bush movie, which I loved too. Yeah, I loved that too. I knew I was going to a lower dimension because Bush does not have the intelligence of Nixon. No, no. With Bush, you're watching a satire about how dumb this guy is. Right. And he says the stupidest things in the movie, and they're all from real life. Right. And it's really sad because that was nepotism in the sense that he becomes president because of his father. Yeah.

and to avenge his father's cowardice, I suppose. But what I'm saying is that the power of our country is sad that it had bad -- not since John Kennedy,

The leadership in this country has really gone down the hill, down the tubes. And we need good men in office. We don't get them. And women. And women. And trans. Yay. Okay. Every race, we need. Good leadership. That's what we need. But, you know, as many people have pointed out, the leadership is always a reflection of the people. So when you say we need good leadership like... Or the system.

The system sucks, yes. The system to get elected is not democratic. It's based on, you know, power. It's based on money and power. And you get elected because you do the right moves at the right time. I mean, governing is power. Governing is exercising power. Remember those guys in school? But you can't take power out of the equation or else you can't govern. You need some power, right? Do you remember, what school did you go to in New Jersey? I went to...

- Pascak Hills High School. - Elementary school. - Holdrum School in Rivervale, New Jersey. - Do you remember the guys in the class in the fifth, sixth grade, seventh grade who wanted to be student council president? - Yes. - And how they would lobby? - Brown nosing, smarmy. - And they'd get something. In my case, they would give money.

Yeah. They'd lend money to people. Grade grubbers like fucking, they'd become Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley and all these fucking Harvard educated. Hated those people. Oh, you went to Harvard, right? I went to Yale. Yale. Same thing. I was in Bush's class. Right. 68. I mean. Not that I knew him, but.

I know the type. He's entitled. When they ran the campaign against John Kerry and they turned John Kerry, a legitimate war hero, into the... Somehow they... That was such a chilling moment because they took the guy's best attribute and threw media and...

the stupidity of the people, convinced that the guy who avoided going to Vietnam because of his father's strings was the war hero and the other guy was the schmuck. That was amazing. Amazing. And it echoed George McGovern campaign. McGovern was a genuine war hero and a pilot who dropped bombs over Germany. Yeah.

really saw the action, saw the shit. Yeah. And George McGovern, I don't know if you met him, but he was a loveliest of men. I'm sure, yeah. He actually supported Nixon in the movie. He wrote a whole editorial about it in the New York papers or something. He was really a lovely man. Gentle, kind, saw the world. He was ridiculed. You thought if you believed the campaign, you would have thought he was a wimp, some kind of weakling. He wasn't. He was a man of principle.

Lincoln couldn't get elected in this fucking world. No. Oh, of course not. So who do you pal around with? Who are your friends? I would pal around with George McGovern. I'd pal around with John Kerry. He's dead, but who do you? John Kerry is, you know, I admire him. Do you have friends in politics that you talk to? Do I have friends? Not really. You don't have friends with politicians. You know that. That's so interesting. Do you have any friends in politics? You're kind of right. I mean...

Yeah, because it's just too risky. They were always politically correct. And I guess they're friends with each other. Bill Clinton invited me to the White House, but I had to go in the back door. That's not being a friend. I had to go in the back door unofficially. Yeah. Why? Because he didn't want me on the agenda. Because you're so toxic? Yes, at that time. From what? 1996.

Five or so. From what movie? I was trying to get his cooperation on Nixon. Oh, okay. And he gave it to me, actually. Right. But quietly. Oh. Yeah. You know, people, I really feel like they're born with a certain chip in them. And, like, they then just become that. Like agents. Like a William Morris agent.

They're out of business. WME. Okay, but I'm just saying you can spot one a mile away. I'm not saying this disrespectfully. I'm just like, oh, yeah. Do you have an agent? Of course. And he looks just like yours. You really think? No, I think agents are human. They're human. I'm not saying they're not like you. You always go to the extreme. Of course they're human. I'm not claiming that they're androids. They just look like them.

I think that's cruel. Your agent's listening to this and may see it. You've heard his feelings. Trust me, that was funny. Agents like it when you're funny because funny is money. I've heard that talk said a million times. Money is funny. No. Funny is money. Funny is money.

No, I feel agents have a soul. And I think if you... I really do. This is not a controversy. You're making... I think you're revealing yourself so much with this. Look at you making a controversy out of this. Yes, agents have a soul. I give... You know that joke that's... You have to treat all people as if...

Is individuals. Yes, but there's two agents. They're standing on the sidewalk in Beverly Hills and a beautiful woman walks by and one of them says, boy, I'd like to fuck her. And the other one says, yeah, out of what? Okay. Man.

All right. So does your wife make you laugh? She's hilarious. She's hilarious? She doesn't speak English. I like her pigeon English. Oh, after all these years? How long has she... She's a special... I love her. She's a...

When she puts her clothes on or whatever, she's just my dream. As I said, that doll under the Christmas tree, right? In 1950s, that doll came to be, right? Came to you? Came to be in my life. Came to be, yes. It's an amazing...

You think you-- Rosebud, or whatever you want to call it. You think you manifested that? Yeah, I do. And so-- You think that's a possible-- It's bizarre. I mean-- That you can manifest. --whoever gets a doll for Christmas, and whoever remembers it. Right. And it happened in 1955, or-- strange, strange story. But do you think people can manifest things like if they think about-- I do, in some strange way. I'm superstitious in some ways, sure. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, the older I get, the more I'm like, anything is possible. I would say that's true. Even though I don't really think that because it sort of gets close to that book, The Secret. It was a very popular book. It was just this idea that you basically, you know, if you just like think how much you really want something, it'll come to you. I'm sure they would say I'm...

exaggerating or somehow well that's nice to believe I'd like to believe that yeah everything it'd be nice to get ice cream in the mail but you know I was ice cream in the mail now I'm not saying she was a doll because she's got who she's feisty and she's got her own whole life she's got a soul you know she's not a doll or an agent but that's I mean it's don't misunderstand anyway you were talking about Hamas earlier

Yes! I want to hear your diatribe about Hamas. Diatribe about Hamas? Like, you could not be hard enough on Hamas right now. Or ever, but right now. Like in Iraq. Remember when they said the story, George Bush repeated the story? You

You remember the story in Iraq, we went into Iraq because they were cruel to the Kuwaitis. Well, they went to the hospitals in Kuwait and took the babies out of these incubators. Yeah, incubators. Incubators and threw them on the floor, bashed their brains out. That was told to the American public. They went crazy. That was another motivation to go and fight the Iraqis in Kuwait. Turned out to be not true. The person who told the story was the daughter of the ambassador of Kuwait to the United Nations.

She got on television and lied completely, made up this ridiculous story to excite the people, made up by Hill and Knowlton, the public relations firm. What was the method in your envisioning of it that how Hamas gently killed these 1,400 people?

I wasn't there. I don't know the details. I haven't followed it as closely as you have. But when you start saying that stuff repeatedly and you have Americans like Biden saying it, then you know something is off. Because it was off. The government lies. Bush lied about that. Bush lied about it. You know an attack happened.

So that's not a lie. They did break through the walls of Gaza, come into Israel, and murder civilians in Israel. They just went house to house. Yes. Pent up anger release, whatever you want to call it. You seem to want to get to the second issue, so let's do it your way. Okay. Well, I've been to Israel several times, and they've been very kind to me. And they just recently gave me a...

Life Achievement Award at the festival in Jerusalem. Really? And you didn't get the one from Mecca? No, not yet. Yeah, because they would never show your movies there. No, they have. Because women show their arms. No, they have. In Saudi Arabia? Yeah, I met him, the chief there. The chief.

These are chiefs. You're right. You think like an American. You're really dumb. It's Chief MBS. Actually, MBS was a brilliant man. He knew more about nuclear energy at that point because I was talking to him about that. You know what I said to him? The de facto leader of Saudi Arabia? Yeah, you know what I said to him? I was very bold. I was in the room with my producer. I said, you know, if you support this documentary,

You're really going to get a name as a man who's not always about oil. Nuclear energy is better than oil. It's a better form of energy. Sell your oil to other countries if you have to, but support nuclear energy. And he said, I know a lot about nuclear energy. We built four reactors in UAE, the United Arab Emirates. He built four. He financed four reactors in the Emirates.

That's how forward-thinking he was, and he knew a lot about the science of it. So totally supporter of energy. And it's ironic that he's got this oil corruption kingdom, but as you know, that's the way you talk. You talk to them like Gorbachev did, so you get him to think about these things. And then he thinks about, okay, I'll do a nuclear sideline, and then I, you know... Do you think he killed that reporter? No. No.

We have to do a show called Let Me Guess. Do you remember Henry II? Let Me Guess with Bill Maher and Oliver Stone. Do you think Henry II, when he... Henry II, now we're going back. I know exactly who Henry II is. Beckett. Yeah, among other things. But what a great play, Beckett. Can we agree on that? He said, well, someone...

"This guy's a pain in the ass, he's breaking my balls. Who's gonna get rid of him?" We gotta get rid of him. But that's like Hillary Clinton said, "Who's gonna kill fucking Assange?" It's the same fucking rap. And they did go out and tried to kill Assange. But it doesn't matter. I mean, leaders sometimes speak out of hand. They sometimes say, "They're emotional like we are too." So I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. Even if he had,

I still talk to the guy and murder is murder like Trump said people murder people it's the modern world it's the old world it's not the modern world it's always happened since the beginning of time so let's not be hypocritical and moralistic about it America doesn't kill people we kill so many fucking people

Right, that's true. And that's what Trump said when Bill O'Reilly asked him that question. And if a Democrat had said it, they would have thrown him out of town. But somehow Republicans have this sort of patriotic... You really hate Republicans, don't you? I hate them more still, yes. But, I mean, they are more hateful. But, boy, you know, I'm an honest broker about the other side, unlike so many people these days. Well, how do you like Netanyahu?

You know what? Netanyahu fucked up so bad. He had, talk about like fucking up your one big thing, which was I'm Mr. Security, I will keep you safe. And in Israel, the toughest neighborhood in the world, that's a pretty good calling card. I mean, they've had four elections, like in two years, he squeaks through.

They don't like him, but it's like, okay, we don't like you, but you're going to do the one fundamental job that we need done in Israel, which is security. When you fuck that up to the level that thing was fucked up, yes, if they weren't in the crisis right at this moment where they can't change leaders, they would kick him out tomorrow, and they will as soon as it dies down.

And I always liked him. But this is a fuck up, you know, it's like. Why did you like him? Why did I like him? Because I thought he, although he was maligned a lot, I thought when you live in Israel, you understand it isn't, they throw around that word existential a lot in this country. Now, somebody really fucked up when they taught a lot of people that word. What does it mean? It means there is a threat to your very existence. Right.

Israel lives in an existential state. We do not. Because as George Bush said, we got oceans to protect us. And we can go shopping. We have a very privileged life. Yes. Okay.

But that is not the case for Israel. They live in an existential state. And so I wasn't unhappy about having a president of Israel who was on the security, you know, conservative, I'm a badass, but I will keep the shit to shoe level kind of guy. I think it was called for there. Marshall Dillon and Gunsmoke, right? Well, yeah, because it is a Western town.

But this thing with the courts, you know, I mean, a lot of people really feel like he went too far there. And maybe he did. I mean, that's something. Yeah, I gather he has a defense minister who was the interior minister. Yeah, he's got a lot of extremists and he's got a lot of training at all. Yeah, he's got the hard right in his, you know.

Same as Trump did. You know, I interviewed him in 2002 to my documentary called Persona Non Grata, which maybe you'll get a kick out of if you see it, because it's a very funny. It ends with Arafat. We get to Arafat and it's a very, as you know, it was right. And then we get kicked out of the country because Ramallah is happening the day we we get there and we have to we have to escape from Ramallah. Otherwise, we'll get.

We'll get caught in that siege, which would have been 30, 40 days. So anyway, I interviewed Netanyahu. And in the middle of the interview, he was talking about the Palestinian terrorists. In the middle of the interview, there was a bomb goes off outside. We're in the building, fourth, 14th floor, and we hear this bomb.

And he's, ah, that's it. And he runs to the window, and it's in the film. He runs to the window, he says, you hear them? You see them? That's what they're doing. They're blowing up that grocery store or whatever it was. And he really had a hard-on for

for uh terrorists he that was his main thing oh yeah i mean in a sense he talking you talked earlier about projection you know it's he he projected and it was happening in the middle of the interview ah you see here's proof and it was like that was not the exact situation was going on it was true it was happening there was terrorist actions but

The vast part of the Palestinian population was accommodating to integration with the Israelis. It's a shame that the terrorists, in a sense, have brought the extremist positions. But it hasn't been helped by Netanyahu's extremities, too. He answers them the same way that they answer. But, you know, I was watching this movie the other day. It was, what was it called? I think something like...

Oh, it's the day where they pick players in the NFL draft. Draft day, I guess. So, you know, and it just reminded me that people make bargains, and then sometimes that bargain isn't on the table the very next day because he gets on the phone with the other general managers they do in football, and he's like, okay, I'll give you our quarterback for two first-round picks.

and they don't do anything that day, and he calls back the next day. Okay, let's do it. No, that was yesterday's deal. Things have changed. Now I want your punt or two. And I've had it happen with real estate. That was last week. You didn't buy it. Israel's the only place where they had the deal on the table in 1947. Let's split up the country. The Jews were like, okay, we'll do that. We'll take half. Israel was very small the way it was originally drawn up.

They said, no, we'll attack you and try to kill you and take it all. They failed. Then they attacked again in 56 and 67 and 73, and they are still attacking. They could have peace so easily. Just stop attacking. Do you really think after all this time, from the river to the sea, really? You're going to get rid of Israel? They're going to just disappear? What a deluded way to look at the world, even if you believed in it. Like, Israel is not going anywhere.

Let's deal with that reality. There's no river to the sea. You're not going to get from the river to the sea. This is the fundamental problem. They don't ever make a deal. What does that mean, river to the sea? That's what they chant all the time. It's a way to say Israel is no more, from the river, the Jordan River, to the Mediterranean Sea. In other words, we will...

We will have all that land, which you never had because, well. Well, it goes back to the Indian problem. What do you think about our taking Indian land? Well, the Jews are the Indians of that land. They were there 1,500 years before Muhammad was born. That's the way the Palestinians feel. This is factual. Jerusalem was the capital, King David's capital, in 1,000 B.C.,

Muhammad is born in 570 A.D.? Yes. Okay. There was a continuous Jewish population in Jerusalem. Yes. Okay, it was their capital. But there were Canaanites and Palestinians there. Well, there were cavemen before that. How do you know? Well, I'm sure weren't there cavemen everywhere before they were humans? I think you're a little discriminating there. What about the crusaders in 1099? What?

1099. Yeah, it's a big deal. Why not just charge $11? What? No. Yes, I know, the taking of Jerusalem. Yeah, it was slaughtered, everything. Right. That was the second crusade? First. First crusade.

Right. Pope Innocent? Is that who proclaimed it? I forgot the name. I think it was. Pope Innocent, that's a great name. It's such a great name for that, yes. But since then, every crusade failed, and this is another crusade. Now, I admit to you that this crusade is a very complicated story, but the guilt that Germany faces is ironic that Germany ends up

attacking the Hamas and saying, "You're driving out..." Netanyahu's saying, "Look,

2.5 million people better get out of town now and fast. And it's never been done. The Germans wouldn't have done that in their worst day, in their worst nightmare. This is why Netanyahu is fucking too much. He's crazy that way. And I spent a lot of time with what you meant, Shimon Peres. So I know the other side of the Israeli peaceful.

party. Right. Although a lot of people distrusted Shimon too. I mean, the Palestinians could have had their own country a number of times. Most recently, 2000, the Oslo Accords, 97% of the West Bank was the deal-perfect

No, no deal ever is. But if they had taken that deal and then shown the Israelis that, OK, we can live side by side without importing fucking rockets from Iran and shooting them at you and we can police our own militants, then maybe we can grow into more like normal neighbors. But Israel is going to have to keep a little eye on you because you do nothing but try to attack them and make them cease to exist. Is that not reasonable?

Yeah, in 2008, Hamas won the election in that West Bank. Well, they won their first election, and then there was no more elections. Yeah, because the Israelis didn't want it. They pulled out. Hamas was the legitimate political faction in that area, and the Israelis would not accept that. They made Hamas into a terrorist organization. Well, that's the thing. Every single point you mention is counterpoint. But when people say, well, you know, it's just...

Islamic world, you're in a horrible Islamophobe bill. No, I'm just talking about what the reality is. The reality is that very often when you give people, Muslim populations in lots of different countries, this has happened, the choice, they will elect, in Egypt it was the Muslim Brotherhood,

Gaza, it was... And they were thrown out by a dictator. By a dictator, right. Gaza, it was, you know, Hamas. Algeria, it happened. I remember there was, let's let the people have a say. And then the army has to go, you know what, the people kind of fucked up. And we don't want this very Islamic, you know, faith-based government. And they take over and, you know...

Yeah, that's the problem. That's the problem with the two-state solution. Because the truth is it will never work. That two-state solution is bullshit. But I'm also saying governments are a reflection of the people here as well as there. The U.S. government, too, has been backing Israel too much and giving it way too much credibility and saying we're supporting you no matter what. And we're making so many enemies throughout the world. Biden is...

flying in there like some Superman, and he's going to find out the truth. So you'll never vote for Biden again? Never. Never? Never, never, never. No matter who runs again? Well, he'll be dead by the time I vote again. Well, but we wish him well, Oliver. We wish him well. So even Trump, you'd vote? You know, I think Biden has got some psychopathic problem with Russia. I really do. You think he does? Yes, I do. I do. You say he? Yes. Biden. Biden.

Okay, so, but you would vote for Trump over Biden? In the Russia matter, yes, but not necessarily. Well, that's not on the ballot. I would vote for Bobby Kennedy, and I have come out for him. But he's not going to be on the ballot. How do you know? That attitude is terrible, but I understand why. It's better to vote. Throw away your vote. I voted for Jill Stein in 16 because I could not stand Hillary Clinton, who you probably love.

We're just very different people. I don't love her, but I don't hate her at all. I think in general, do I have her favorability rating? I do. I think Hillary Clinton is a sincere person.

policy wonk, smart, hard worker who just wants to fix problems. And she has paid the price of being a woman or a Clinton. I don't know. But they just make her into a witch that she is not. She is that is she it's if she has any flaw, it's that she's boring.

The fact that they make her, it just says more about the people who hate her. You forgot what she did as Secretary of State. She lied about being under sniper fire in Bosnia. She did. Well, she did. She was antagonistic. She created problems with Russia. She created huge problems in Libya. She got rid of a guy who was working in Libya. And Libya, since its destabilization. Let's not forget Benghazi.

I mean, she should have been on the phone to every- Well, fuck Benghazi. That's nothing compared to knocking down Libya. That's a major fucking problem. It still goes on and on and on. Africa's at stake, too. The Africans don't like her. You have to understand, America is making enemies everywhere. Biden is, too. When you're home with your wife, is this what you talk about? Never! None of this. She's lovely.

I assume that means I'm not. You're actually fun. I like you. You are too. I like you. But look, if I never get to see you again, I just never know, not because we're old, although partly, but also because our lives go in different directions and I never get to see you again.

For what you did for the country, a rich kid who fucking went to Vietnam. We got to that with George Bush and then we got off the subject. And then all the entertainment you've given me. All the movies that were just exactly hit that thing that I need in my life. And untold history. And untold history, yes. But the movies that were like...

you know entertaining as but also you know nutritious and about something and yeah thank you so you know i hope you go back to making some of those because i still think i still think you got it in you tell some of your studio friends to help me yeah i know it's a fucking fucked up world isn't it that not i mean our world not the world but also our world of like these strikes

and the unhappiness and AI coming in. Well, we'll see what happens. You know, I was told today that there is such a thing called AI porn. And I watch porn, so I'm not trying to like my friends. I watch plenty of porn. I've never seen this, where they put, and they say, it does not look fake. Any actress...

you can put in and put their face on and make it so that it looks like Reese Witherspoon is getting railed, you know, in a porn movie and her voice. Yeah, but then she'd sue, right?

I asked that exact same question in the meeting today when I heard this. I'm like, how did they... And they said, well, this is coming. Much like that porn star who's fucking Reese Witherspoon. No, yeah, it's just amazing what they're... I mean, the actors, they are not wrong to be paranoid about this AI because... And they kind of like did it to themselves because you saw...

In The Irishman, did you see that? Yes. Okay. De-aging. De-aging, which doesn't really work because their face is young, but they... Yeah, there's something wrong with it. Exactly. The spirit. The spirit. The spirit's out of sync. You know, it's... And also, it's so funny. You can't, like, have...

Someone who's not Asian, well, Asian, that wouldn't work for this. Someone who's not gay, play a gay person, you know, that kind of thing where you have to be the exact thing, you know, a trans person has to play a trans person. And yet we're putting out of work young actors so we can hire 80-year-olds and de-aging them. You'd think that would be a bigger issue with them. Like, can we just have a law that, you know, if someone's roughly 35, they can't be played by De Niro? No.

No, am I really off base here? I can't comment on it because I don't know enough about it. You know, I really don't know all the issues. And when it comes to a negotiation, have you ever read all the paragraphs? It's just mind-boggling. Right. It's just difficult. All right. Legal shit. Well, I'll root for you to make me another movie because I would love it, whatever you do. Oh, wish me luck. Thank you. All right.