Christmas with Rene Girard Roundtable (THINGS HIDDEN 212)
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I know there's kind of a lot of overlap between people who maybe read a Jordan Peterson and read Rene Girard because it's basically book people, right? Smart, young book people, read them both. But they are so different from one another because Peterson is a re-mythologizer and Girard is a demythologizer. ♪

I love you and I really don't know what to do.

Well, we're back with another special roundtable for Christmas. We always like to do these, and I always book that. Everybody gets really weird, in America at least, where for four weeks before Christmas and four weeks after Christmas, everybody loses their mind. You don't know where anybody is. Nobody does anything. The whole world stops, and everybody's running around. And I always make the mistake of waiting to the very last second, sometimes recording on Christmas Eve.

these podcasts, but I'm glad that I was able to do this the day before Christmas Eve. But we have a great panel discussion with friends of mine, friends of the show. You, if you watch my program or listen to my show, you're familiar with the folks here. If you're listening, I'll go ahead and introduce to my left, I have Jim Fitzgerald, Pastor Jim Fitzgerald, who is a pastor, trains theologians all over the Middle East,

with Equipping Pastors International, where he's been doing that for what, 15 years, Jim? Yes. Or more, maybe. And then we have Jerry Boyer to my right, who is the editor of many outlets. And he can give you the list because I know he's got a big group of them that he does. But he's always someone who gives us great insights with our roundtable discussion. And I consider this like a family gathering where you never know who's going to show up. But the one thing we like to do is kind of do a little bit something different with Christmas and

You might hear the traditional readings of the Nativity story in most shows that are interested in theology like we are, but we like to do a little anthropology too, so that's what we're going to do. We have Surat Desgupta with us, who joins our show many times for various topics, exploring art and culture and various things like that. And then we also have...

And Jerry, excuse me, Jason Jones of the Vulnerable People Project. And he is someone who goes abroad and helping folks in vulnerable situations, usually wars that we've had an involvement with. And then we have Shannon Braswell, who's the editor of BrightNews.com. All of these gentlemen are big fans and students of Renee Girard. So we're going to use some of that as the basis. So I wanted to first start off kind of asking each of you, what is your vision?

Christmas wish. Let's start with you, Jim. What do you have a Christmas wish for this season that you'd like to share with us? Yeah, I think that's the second time today I've been asked that question. I sure do. I guess, you know, on front and center of my wish list would be, you know, to stop the war in Gaza and the West Bank and

All the wars, really. I don't want to sound like I'm on a Miss America pageant, but, you know, world peace would be great. And, you know, I think, you know, yesterday in church, you know, just about every song or hymn we sang, you know, had the word Bethlehem in it, you know. And I was just trying to figure out, like, you know, how many Christians here of about a thousand people gathered together are actually conscious of what's going on in Bethlehem right now, Bethlehem, Judea.

where, you know, both Muslims and Christians are being persecuted, they're being displaced, and they're being killed. And it's really hard for me to get past that, you know, during this Christmas season, because, and that's happening, obviously, in multiple places around the world. It's not by accident, it's by design. And somehow, we've got to find a way to end that.

Jim, you've been to Egypt many times. I think you're heading back that region soon. What's Christmas like for them right now? What are they thinking? What's the temperature over there? Well, Christmas, they sort of celebrate two Christmases there. You know, the evangelicals will celebrate the same day we do, the 25th, and then they'll re-celebrate on January 7th because we operate on two different calendars. They operate on the Julian calendar. We're on the Gregorian calendar.

And, yeah, I mean, you know, one thing about, you know, Egypt, Christians are free to celebrate, they're free to worship. There are thousands of churches throughout Egypt. It's, you know, probably the largest Christian community in the North African and Middle East region.

And so it's a very celebratory time. Even President Sisi will go on January 7th or January 6th to the Coptic Cathedral and greet all the Christians there. So it's a legal time. And it's you know, so there's nothing against the celebration of the birth of Christ there.

And it's, you know, you'll even see Christmas decorations on the street and Christmas trees for sale and things like that. Very good. Jerry Boyer, do you have any thoughts or Christmas wish you have? Well, I guess what I think about a lot is I wish and pray that we don't have a nuclear war.

before the change of power here in the United States through reckless expansion of the Ukrainian conflict. It just seems like the present administration just is gonna try to shove as much weaponry and money as it can. So you've got, we're closely aligned with Ukraine, advisors and who knows what else is going on there. And at that point, we're up against two nuclear powers, Russia and now North Korea.

Now, I'm not saying that's going to happen, but it's an existentially destructive event. So a one in a thousand possibility or even I say one in a hundred possibility of something that would wipe out billions is something to be concerned about. So I'm pretty concerned about that. I'm kind of happy that in some sense, it's almost like Trump is president already. He's functioning like a president.

And although I wouldn't wish dementia on anyone, the paralysis of dementia from Biden, you know, might slow things down there. So in essence, we really just we only have one president at a time and it's the president elect and he would be into de-escalation. I would I suppose.

I don't know what wishes are exactly. I mean, there's prayers and then there's actions and plans. So wish, I don't really have a category in my head for wish, but one of the things I'm hoping for is I really love the vibe shift that's going on in the country right now where a preference cascade, where people can kind of speak what they want to speak, use the pronouns they want to use. I'm grateful that we went through a time of suppression so we could figure out who really was who, because when it was painful and difficult and costly to speak,

Many people didn't right now it isn't. And so a lot of people are going to come out and say, well, I was with you all along. So I'm glad that we went through that period of suppression. But I'm glad also now that there is a preference cascade going on where we can question everything that comes down from the ruling class. I guess the other thing I really want is that we don't fall into mindless populist opposition.

the ruling class told a lot of lies and it did a lot of things incompetently that does not mean that everything that anyone who's ever said as part of that class has ever said is therefore wrong so we could get into mindless opposition

whatever the CDC says is wrong, whatever the WHO, whatever the Fed, maybe the Fed's always wrong, but whatever the people in Washington say, just believe the opposite. And then all of a sudden, we don't really have a critical thinking process. We just have one set of lies and then another set of lies, which are the opposite. And I'm really hoping and more like praying for the emergence of institutions that are truth-oriented.

Not just the narrative of the Omniparty or the counter-narrative, but a truth-focused narrative. Very good. Surat, what do you hope for for Christmas? Pretty much hope what you all have said before.

so far and on top of that like i agree with jerry about the mindless opposition thing it's you can especially see it in these track circles that's emerging out of everywhere you know like yeah there is a growth in the churches and all of that but as well at the same time you know you also see these uh

heavy trad-based reactive element and like they're proposing blasphemy laws you know non-christians to be kicked out of government and all of that it's just totally insane insane it's like it's it's like this you know david's laughing but i you know like this dive into christianity but as well as you know clamoring for you know paganism a return of paganism of some sort

So I wish that would all go away and you know like in this place we would find a non-violent element of Christ's teaching making a big comeback, his understanding of his anthropology and that influencing you know many of our top guys you know like

uh jd vance is uh heavily influenced by gerard and you know many other people as well jay bhattacharya who is rumored to be uh among top uh trump's pick uh he's a follower of gerard so like we have a big opportunity of gerard's ideas impacting uh the ruling elites and like that that could be a very big thing and i hope like it influences it like

spreads a kind of anthropological understanding of Christianity and nonviolence that comes out of it. We understand the story of Christmas much better if we do that. Jason, what about you? Yeah, like Jim said, I don't want to sound like I'm running for Miss America, but I think that's where we are right now. And I appreciate what everyone said, peace. This could be the last Christmas with Christians alive.

in Gaza, in Bethlehem, in Damascus since the first Christmas, since Pentecost, really. So I pray for peace. I pray for an end to the war in Ukraine. And just as importantly, you know, my Christmas wish would be that these virulent, hateful ideological enthusiasms like Christian Zionism that have swept through the church and the English-speaking world are swept into the dustbin of history.

And I think we're close to that happening. And I'm grateful for that. So I would say that is my wish. And I just also really appreciate what Sarit said about the trad community. It's so interesting to see the trad community drifting so trad that they're heading towards paganism and promoting like,

Julius Evola. I think they're so trad. They're pagans now. It's a very strange migration that's frightening. Gerard is very helpful in correcting that, and that's good. That's why you've got to understand. I think he helps with that. But, Shannon, what do you think? Dave, I do apologize. My office is actually in an MMA gym. The gym is closed, but since we started, guys came in, and they're free-rolling. That's okay. Can you hear the music? No. No, we don't hear anything. Okay.

Santa, go ahead. My turn? Okay. Yeah. Yeah, don't really... I'd probably say something really cheeky and sort of simple, like I hope everyone has a blessed Christmas. Things are very confusing right now, I think, just politically and socially. We all kind of

you know, uh, probably winding down from the election and the, you know, the, the, the excitement from all of that. Um, and I do pray that the transition that we're, uh, headed in, uh, you know, or towards is, um, you know, a, a, a pleasant one and not, um, you know, there, there won't be any, um, out

outbursts, you know, or, you know, writing or anything like that. Probably me just saying that probably triggered something, but yeah, I mean, that's what I hope for is like, you know, we just have a smooth, thank you, a smooth transition, you know, of power and things don't turn out to be, you know, as chaotic as maybe everyone thought, you know, and that next year, you know, is a little brighter.

Yeah, that'd be great. Shannon, hey, you talked to Jean-Michel Ogolian, who is one of the pillars of the mimetic theory. How's he doing? You just talked to him a few weeks ago. How's he doing? He's good. Yeah, I talked to him. You know, he's doing well. Yeah, he's good. You know, he wrote a book a couple of years back, not too long ago, called Alterity.

So I've just been reading a little bit about that. Is that in English yet? Is that in English? It is. Yes, it is in English. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, he's doing he's doing great. Very good.

Yeah. And I talked to Mr. Gil Bailey, another pillar of the memetic theory project just yesterday, and he's doing fine. So, you know, it's always great to check in on some of these folks who really built something so great that we're going to build upon through the years. I want to ask you guys, you know, and you got, we can do free for all where you just jump in whatever you want, but I do want to, I want to position something that I think is important that ties everything together. And, you know, one of the important reasons why it's, it's good to have an anthropology group,

of the gospel stories, particularly the birth narrative, is it really concretizes what we're talking about here in a really practical way. When I interviewed Jordan Peterson many years ago, actually it was in December, so it would be about...

Six years ago to this around this time, I interviewed him in New York City and I confronted him with mimetic theory and Rene Girard. And he was really not interested in getting into the political concrete implications of the gospel. He wanted to keep it kind of in a more broader context.

psychological sense about chasing the dragon and stuff like that. And that's fine, but because he was deriving his stuff from Carl Jung. But to this day, a lot of folks like Peterson and so forth, sometimes and again, I'm not saying this against him personally, but when we I see this move that I'm concerned with of people getting more excited about archetypes, about Christianity than the actual concrete behavior that Christ actually exemplified on Earth. And I think Rene Girard helps us

to have a real focus on imitating the historic Christ. And when we do that, and I think incarnation is so important here,

Right. Because whenever we whenever we find a way to do to create a Gnostic Christ, we will always have room for the next war. We will always have room for the next proxy war. We will always have room for the next starvation campaign as a sacrificial excuse. There will always be endless excuses to kill human beings or starve them and still call yourself a Christian so long as you keep believing

Christ in the world of ethereal archetypes and psychology or even theology without an anthropology. I think the anthropology really provides the nuts and bolts. What does Christ do here? Right. And he says, do not resist even with violence. He says, God desires mercy, not sacrifice. And I think the reason why right now Christians are being killed by Christian tax dollars right now all over this world.

It's because we don't take seriously the anthropology of Christ that's revealed in the incarnation story. That Christ comes in the flesh and that flesh matters.

Human flesh matters. It is not expendable, okay? Because anybody that comes to you and says, well, I was a victim, therefore I can burn someone on a subway, or I'm a victim, therefore I can do this or that, is someone who is trying to reject the incarnational observations that the gospel reveals in all over the text.

Anybody want to chime in on that? I think that's what Gerard helps me see, is that this is not another theology game. When you get to anthropology, you're understanding the sausage-making of human culture and our actions in it. I think it's very interesting that the issue that we Christians have with Jordan Peterson is almost the same issue that

that is shared with the left, right? And when Jordan Peterson first broke into the scene, he was heavily criticized by the left for, you know, focusing too much on the individual, like cleaning your room and all of that. The left, when they criticized him, they said, okay, but you can only do that to an extent. At some point, you have to

branch out into human relations, like our dynamic between human beings on a societal level. And this does not mean that Christians are woke or anything. It just means the opposite. It just means the left is haunted by Christ. It just goes to show how a Christian society is thoroughly Christ-haunted.

and any attempt to, you know, psychologize these things is going to be ineffective. And the significance of the Christian story is that, you know, in Orthodox and Catholic circles, Mary is known as the greatest of all saints. She exemplifies what is proper human reaction towards God should be and how God approaches us.

And God approaches us not in a might-makes-right kind of way, but in a persuasive way. And Mary accepts that, and at the same time, she humbles herself. And therefore, to borrow from Jordan Peterson, she becomes an archetype of how human beings should be.

going forward. She exemplifies what the true human being has to be, you know, by accepting God's proposal. It's a symphony of human and God, human beings and God working together into creating a peaceful world. So that element is missing from Jordan Peterson's discourse.

And it's not just unique to Peterson, it's also in mainstream Christianity, you know, like Christians also do this. Christians also psychologize and they also heavily individualize the faith and make it all about becoming a better human being and whatnot.

But as René Girard said, we are individuals, we're not just an atomic individual, we're just individuals. What that means is that because of our mimetic nature, all of us are influencing one another. As Dostoevsky said, I am responsible for the whole world.

and that's what Christians are there. We are carrying the cross, not just in a figurative sense, but in a literal sense. Our actions, everything influences other people and as a result they bear huge significance on the world. So this is too much. I guess it's like it could be too much for you, but just that's just off the top of my head what I think

Yul Bailey says, the incarnation is the most radical gesture in the history of the world, for in it God enters human history not as a dominator but as a servant. That's in Violence Unveiled. Yeah. Renee says, in things hidden since the foundation of the world, the Gospels represent the first decisive breach in mankind's age-old complicity with violence.

You know, I think, you know, I know there's kind of a lot of overlap between people who maybe read a Jordan Peterson and read Rene Girard because it's basically book people, right? Smart, young book people, you know, read them both. But they are so different from one another because Peterson is a re-mythologizer and Girard is a demythologizer.

So, I mean, what Gerard points out is that basically until the Bible, there's no other ancient literature that's history other than the Bible. Peter Thiel said that recently, you know, that the book of Daniel is much more historical than Thucydides or Herodotus because they're all looking for timeless lessons and they kind of, you know, get over the details. You know, they don't really have to get the historical details right because the historical details aren't the point.

Some abstract principle is the point, right? And so then with Jesus, you have the first instance of a human sacrifice to build a social order, a politically oriented human sacrifice, where you get to see the sausage being made. You get behind there and you see Caiaphas basically, hey, we're going to lose our job. We're going to run out of money. We can't have this. The Romans are going to come take away everything we've got. It's better to sacrifice this.

So it's revealing the true political nature of what's going on. And therefore, it's the first human sacrifice story that's not mythological. What Peterson does is comes along and turns the actual history of the Bible into mythology.

So that he can fit it into the mythological framework of Carl Jung where everything is abstract archetypes, rather than real life history. And Jung was, you know, basically Jungians were easy prey for the fascists. Right. And so were Heidegger and the abstract metaphysicians, they had no defense against fascism. Because

Because of their, as you point out, David, their abstract philosophy. So, I mean, we really, I admire Jordan Peterson. Interesting guys, had some good influence on some people in my life. But frankly, young conservative men need to wake up from Jordan Peterson and his mythologizing tendency and go back. And once you do that, then you see the anthropology and the politics and the gospels and you're allowed to see them. And the other thing is, and I think Girardians need to struggle to do this, is

and leave behind the catacomb. We don't need the old pagan order anymore. And I see sometimes in Girardian circles, I was arguing with a Girardian socialist, and I said, well, that socialism is violence. He said, yeah, but we're not fully evolved enough. So we need that violence. You know, that's like the catacomb. We still need that. And I hear conservatives talk that way, too. We need that violence. We need a little paganism. Yeah.

Because if we really embrace the kingdom of God, then there's nothing to hold the social order together. And the New Testament very strongly emphasizes not the strength of the catechon, but the weakness. When they confront Jesus and he talks about Satan casting out Satan, he doesn't say, "And that's a good plan and that works."

He said, well, Satan casts out Satan, the house is divided and will surely fall. And then Paul later in the controversies when they're going back to the catacomb with the Galatians, he calls them weak and beggardly and elementary people.

Once Jesus comes along, there's no going back. And these trad, you know, trad cats, trad Orthodox, trad Calvinists, trad everything that Sarit talked about. They're all trying. And it's interesting. I mean, but for a slight difference in who they had read on the Internet, they could have been fiercely anti-Catholic.

They could have been Calvinists who say the Pope is the Antichrist, but they read a little something else and know the Pope must be obeyed and everybody else is going to hell, or maybe it's Eastern Orthodox. But I mean, they really say- They come from the same factory. They're just- Or the Pope must be obeyed and he is the Antichrist. Yes, exactly. Right, or the set of insincerity, well, there isn't a Pope, you know.

but sociologically, these guys are really all the same, and they're repaganizing. So it's resourcement and reformed thought, so we need to go back to the magisterial Protestants, which means we need to persecute Catholics. Or no, we need to go back to the Tridentine and the Council of Trent, which means we need to prosecute Protestants. And in the Mortera case, the church was right to kidnap a Jewish kid. Or maybe it's the Eastern Orthodox, and we need...

And they feel like they're so different. Gerard is so right about that. They are so alike. And the more they fight with one another, the more alike they are. And they're all paganizing. They're all going back to the catacomb. They're all thinking in archetypes and cool ideas. And they've got ostentatious beards or whatever is the fashion of the day to demonstrate that. But none of them are embracing the kingdom of God. They're moving backward from the kingdom of God. But you can't move backward from the kingdom of God.

It just doesn't work. It's like if you're on a road, you're driving on a highway and you go from mile marker one to five, that's okay. But if you go from mile marker five to one, you put it in reverse, you're

Death and destruction. You can't go backwards. And all of these attempts to go backwards are going to end in death and destruction. Yeah, that reminds me, sir. And I were laughing to ourselves recently because it's become fashionable among these young guys online and the Christian trad world to get scared about because of all the picks that Trump is making, uh,

to be terrified of the Hindus. The Hindus are coming. Uh-oh, the globalists have decided it's the new thing that will rule over America is these Hindus that will be the new managerial class. And this is a spirit of demons behind the Hindus. That's like,

And these guys have no conception of redemptive history and they have no anthropology. There's no going anywhere with their theology. They're counting Jews, too. I'm seeing lists online of count the Jews. And isn't that so woke?

Yeah. Right. That you're you're just saying too many of a certain demographic or race. They're so alike. One of the anti woke right and the woke left are so similar to one another and they can't see it. They're blind to it. Yeah, I think Jordan Peterson, he's just another version of the monomyth. And, you know, Gerard just takes that apart and obliterates it following Jesus.

who not only exposed the myth, but was indeed the antidote to the myth. And so, you know, that's a one-track, that's a one-way street. You know, it's one track. There's no going back from that. Yeah, you know, it is interesting to, you know, Jordan Peterson has that whole The Gospels thing now. He's got the panel with, I think, Jonathan Pujol is on there.

And a couple other intellectuals. Jonathan's been on the show a few times too, yeah. Yeah. And I'm not saying nothing bad. But you do see kind of like their conversations. Jordan Peterson will sort of steer away. He doesn't mention Gerard.

you know, in any, just about any of his conversations, you won't see that come up. But, you know, Jonathan Pujol and some of the people around Bishop Barrett, you know, are very aware of the, you know, mimesis and the scapegoating and all of that. But you don't see that conversation coming up. And so that's, I think that's interesting. I've noticed it's, it's,

It's striking the way they don't mention him. Yeah. It's as if they fear him. Yeah, yeah. And they, you know, not to beat up on Jordan Peterson. I feel he's young. He's younger than his years. And he was, even though he's an older man, but he was thrust into the limelight. He didn't go seeking it.

And I think this has maybe retarded his ability to authentically approach Christ. I call him the opiate of the manosphere. He's the opiate of the manosphere. And, you know, and I find him, he's very boring to me. And I, I was a young Randian. I was young atheist, Ayn Rand objectivist. And, and I think what I have been attracted to this, if, if instead of growing up in the early, in the mid nineties as a Randian, if I was growing up today, I,

I would probably become Muslim, to be honest. I don't, I think if I would have approached Christianity through the lens of Jordan Peterson or Bishop Barron, I was really intrigued in Islam, even as a young boy in the nineties. But to your, I want to read this from Chesterton. It made me, when you were talking about how David, when he was on your show, he didn't want to bring Christ to reality. And,

How did you put it? It's the monomyth, you know? Yeah, he wanted to mythologize it. He wanted to mythologize everything. I wanted to get political, ethical implications of Christ rooted out and worked out with him, but he didn't want to go there, you know? So I thought of this poem from Chesterton. It's the song of a strange aesthetic. And here's one stanza. If I had been a heathen, I'd have crowned Nerea's curls and filled my life with love affairs, my house with dancing girls.

but Higgins is a heathen and to lecture rooms he's forced, whereas aunts who are not married demanded to be divorced. Okay. If I was to approach Christ through Jordan Peterson, I'm not making my bed. I'm going to have women in my bed, thank you, and tequila bottles by the side, and you bore me. It's not enough, right? It's just not enough in the end. And I pray that we see...

Jordan move. But now it's become very serious because he's an apologist for a genocide. And when I see Bishop Barron avoid to address what's happening before our very eyes, the first live stream genocide of the most powerless people on earth, the Palestinians, the most dehumanized people on earth. And you have an apologist for the genocide in Jordan Peterson.

And Bishop Fulton Sheen knows very well that to stand with the scapegoat is to become as vulnerable as the scapegoat, and his ambitions will be washed away. Fulton Sheen? You don't mean Fulton Sheen. No, I said Bishop Barron. Did I say Fulton Sheen? Yeah. No, Bishop Barron, because I wanted to compare him. You want him to be Fulton Sheen, right? No, Bishop Barron would be swept away. Now, Fulton Sheen, I was thinking because I wanted to compare him to this. Yeah.

Fulton Sheen, on the other hand, in the 20s and 30s, every time he wrote on anything, he was going after fascism, Nazism, and totalitarian socialism. And then from the 40s on, whether it was my favorite book of his, The World's First Love, he's gunning after totalitarian socialism. So that Bishop Barron could go this long without addressing the decimation of the oldest Christian community in the world, to me, is startling.

And I think it's connected, Shannon, to their fear of Gerard, which is a fear of a proper understanding of the gospel. Yeah, yeah. Go ahead. No, I'm just saying that it really highlights how important it is for Christians to understand the anthropology of

of the Bible rather than just, you know, engage in these theological debates, which are, you know, just mental games, you know, like gymnastics or whatever they're talking about, who is the hypostasis or filioque, all of this, which really bears very little in our real lives. But, you know, the anthropology, you

which the Bible is all about. The Bible talks about the Gospels, especially talk about the story and the human relations, the dynamics and all of that far more than it talks about theology or doctrine or anything to that effect. And I think that really needs to be highlighted. I just can't, you know,

emphasize this enough, so important. I think that I want to nudge a little bit on this in that I think that hypostasis incarnation homoousius homoousius that those are anthropology and have political implications. And so in their time, it was extremely important to understand that Jesus was in fact truly God, not God, God ish.

or half God, or a mixing together of God and man, because that would have been paganism. Although, Sarit, I'm fully on board with the idea that these have become shibboleths that people shred one another over. And the filioque is tragic, split the church in two, when it could have been a good discussion, right? There could have been a real debate, and maybe the East would have said, you know, you're right. Or maybe the West would have said, hmm,

Oh, maybe it's not procession. Maybe it's something else. And they could have come to some conclusion. Instead, they decided to fight. But in that, I don't want to throw those out because, in fact, paganism had half God, half man, had demigods. It was important that we understand that the person who came into Bethlehem with that message, who himself became a scapegoat, was God himself.

In any way that a person could be God, he was God. And I think what's happened is those theological categories have become so abstracted from reality that they no longer have anthropological significance to us, not because they no longer have anthropological significance, but because we don't see their anthropological significance. We see them as denominational warfare armories.

I agree with you completely. Luke 1, 52 through 53, Mary says, He has brought down rulers from their thrones, but has lifted up the humble. He has filled the hungry with good things, but has sent the rich away empty. Now, Jerry, you would probably say that wasn't really rich people. That was corporatists, right? I would say that it's the Judean ruling class. Yeah. Rich. Why? Because 30 years later,

Her son quotes that in Judea using second person plural pronoun to the Judean elite. So what did Mary mean? The best interpreter of Mary is Jesus. I think we can all agree with that, right? I mean, she's important because he's important. So he learns at her feet.

She teaches him. There's a lot of evidence. We had a homeschool culture in lower Galilee. So she learns at his feet. She tells that beautiful kind of philosophy, theology, political poem song. And then he quotes it later in his first major speech in the capital region. He goes down and goes down to D.C. and gives a speech.

to the bankers from New York and to the people in Washington. But it was Tyre Sidon, that was the bankers, and it was Jerusalem, that was the ruling class. And he quotes her and he says, woe unto you. But he doesn't say anything like that in Galilee where you had an entrepreneurial culture. In fact, she didn't say it in Galilee. She waits until she leaves Galilee to go into the hill country of Judea. And she says it in the presence of her cousin who actually was part of the ruling class, but who had just submitted to her.

So, so just think about this. She, she, she's told that she's going to conceive. She doesn't say anything like this. She's just told. Then she leaves her hometown or entrepreneurial frontier town, goes to her, her wealthier, more status, higher status cousin or sister. And the sister says, you're coming to me?

that the mother of my Lord should come to me. So she's reversing. Elizabeth is going along with the reversal of the social order. And in response to that, Mary sings a song about the reversal of the social order. 30 years later, Elizabeth's son is visited by Mary's son in the Jordan. And he does exactly the same thing. You're coming to me. I'm not fit to loosen your sandals, which means that's what you do when someone comes into your home.

So John is saying, just like his mother said to Jesus's mother, I'm not worthy that you should come to my house. This is all social reversal stuff, but it's focused on the Judean elite. Not everybody anywhere in the history of the world who made an honest living, you know, being a tin merchant or, uh, you know, being really good at growing sesame oil. Yeah. I think, I think that's an interesting thing there because I was thinking about, um, some of the, uh, you think about the Greek myths, you know, the Greco Roman myths of like, uh,

Well, just just for to make it simple, you know, Zeus, right? Like he's the he comes down and every time he has some kind of relationship with a with a with a female, you know, with a human woman, it's like a violent, you know, like, yeah, I'm going to.

Yeah. Can you hear me? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's a, you know, it's a, it's a violent thing. You know, it's, it's a, you know, he takes Europa, like he's in the form of a bull. He snatches Europa, you know, from Phoenicia, you know, across the Mediterranean, you know, and, you know, so we're talking about the,

you know, like sort of inverting the story there. You know, if you look at the gospels, it's like, okay, God is, you know, not forcing himself on, you know, the blessed mother, but he's approaching her with, you know, kind with love and kindness or, you know, a gentle gentleness, you know? And so I think that's a,

It's intentional, you know, that the Gospels are trying to point that out, that, you know, God is not a God of violence or subjectation, you know, but that he's wanting man to sort of engage freely and, you know, with a sense of, you know, of freedom.

of willingness and acceptance, you know, not like, oh, I'm going to be punished if I if I say no, you know, I'm going to be killed or something, you know. So, yeah, I think that's it. It's

it's sort of important yeah it's a certain refutation of the monomyth uh thing right like people like to people like to point out the similarities between the birth account in the gospels and the virgin birth accounts in all the other religions like even hinduism there is one

But that's the main differentiation, Shannon, that you pointed out is the absence, complete absence of violence in the gospel account. And in the ancient pagan accounts, they don't point out the violence explicitly, but they mythologize it. You know, it's like covering up the crime scene kind of thing, you know, with symbols and all of that.

Yeah, very, very fascinating. Yeah, Marshall McLuhan famously said, the medium is the message. So the medium of which God comes to man and shows up in our history is the message of what he expects us to be like as well. Yeah, a baby in a, you know, what do you call it? No, but God, the way you just said it, God coming nonviolently. And that's the way we're to act, right? If we want justice in the world,

If we've been aggrieved, we have to look for ways in which we can have nonviolent solutions to these problems. That's the medium of them. That's the message of the Christian. That's one of the messages, but it's pretty much the biggest message. The only violence in the story is the ruling class's response to nonviolent coming.

The slaughter of the innocents. That rivalry starts immediately. You know, the wise men come and they say, you know, where is the king that has been born? And Herod is troubled. And immediately that rivalry between the kings begins. The king of kings against the little king there, which is Herod.

And you can trace that all the way even through his descendants. You know, it goes all the way through the Gospels. That rivalry just continues. And then, you know, he goes from there. Then you have the slaughter of the innocents. Then you have...

Jesus confronting, you know, the arch enemy of Satan and, you know, Matthew chapter four, go to Caesarea Philippi, you know, named after Caesar and Philip, you know, you know, the center of the political conflict there. And then, you know, the gates of hell, you know, right there. So, you know, you trace that, you know, that rivalry that starts there.

And then you have that whole, you know, scandal that comes on, you know, throughout the whole region that's just tearing itself apart. And, you know, Christ is the only one that resolves that. Well, Jerry, I think you've got to go, right? So any last thought?

Well, yeah. I mean, Christmas ties together with Easter, right? Because the virgin birth is God's response. So a virgin is barren. The only thing more barren than a virgin is a tomb. So Jesus goes into a tomb and shocks. It's even more shocking.

for a human being to come out of a tomb than it is, and in this case, it's after the violence. So there's a kind of a chiasm here. God comes into the world non-violently. The ruling class violently tries to kill him. Eventually, the ruling class does violently kill him. God renders his verdict by raising him from the dead, which is his verdict against all mimetic rivalry and against all violence and against death itself. Amen, Jerry. Thank you. Thank you.

Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas, Jerry. Okay, and everybody else needs to drop out. That's fine, too. We'll just keep this Christmas conversation going until it's just me talking to myself again. I've done that a lot over the years.

It's okay. We all do that. You know how it is at the Christmas gathering when the one cup you wait for that one guy to leave and then everybody starts leaving at the same time mimetically? That's a mimetic phenomenon. There you go. You got tired of hearing David's jokes and you've watched the football game long enough and you wait for that one uncle to leave and then you get on the train and you all start fleeing out. I get it.

And there's that one uncle that won't shut up about Gaza. That's me. Can everyone watch Facebook, Instagram reels? Uncle Jason, you've been drinking the punch too much, huh? Uh-oh. Aunt Betty, look at this. Aunt Betty. Yeah. I don't know. You know, I think it's interesting that, like, around this time,

Christmas is supposed to be this thing of joy and family and loved ones getting together, but it is strange how

how that's the one time where everybody's like, man, I sure don't want to see so-and-so. You know, I sure don't want to talk to so-and-so. You know, it's like, how am I going to get through this day? You know what I mean? So, you know, you hear all the songs and everybody's in glee and joyful and everything. But, you know, then you're reminded of, like, we still live in a fallen, violent world.

chaotic world. And I think the thing about the nativity story and everything is that our redemption has come. And that being reminded of that every year is sort of, it is uplifting, even though the things that we're dealing with right now in the world is very

It's very disheartening. We've all talked about various things that have gone on and are still going on throughout the world in our own country. But I think that everyone, even if you're not a Christian,

There's something about the Christmas story. You know, there's something about the gospels and the coming of Christ that I think it captures everybody, you know, whether it's their imagination or their, you know, they have a sincere, they want to have a sincere walk with Christ. It's, you know, like what David, you know, you say we're swimming in the fishbowl of

Of Christ or something like that, you know, it's unavoidable, you know, and, you know, for some people, it's surface level. You know, it's just like, hey, I just want to eat the cookies and put up the Christmas tree and drink some eggnog or whatever, you know, some spice punch or something. And for others, I think, you know, say within within this group here that, you know, talking like, you know, really thinking about what is the gospel? What are the gospels mean?

And this is the beginning stage of sort of that walk we're all going to have, you know, once we get closer towards Lent and, you know, everything. And so this is the beginning of that. And I think it's important to sort of, I think it's good to, you know, to contemplate and to think about that. You know, like, you know, Christ was born in a very chaotic world.

You know, in the time in which he lived, I mean, there was a lot going on, you know. And so, you know, if nothing else, I guess I could say, well, you know, if it was if it was chaotic for him, then, you know, maybe I shouldn't complain so much about the little bit of chaos that I got going on in my life. You know, you know. Yeah.

Well, I'm interested in the fact that you mentioned, you know, Lenten there, because I think it's helpful to keep the whole ecclesiastical calendar in mind. When you want to think about anthropology and liturgical worship, there's nothing more anthropological than liturgical worship. The entire body is involved. There's fasting and feasting during these seasons.

And, you know, sometimes we jump right into Christmas and we leave Advent out, which we're still in the season of Advent. This was just past Sunday was last Sunday of Advent. And and I think, you know, those those are important bodily movements that.

Jamie Smith says, you know, these are, you know, these are micro actions that have macro consequences. So, you know, worship is an external thing we do. It's not just this Gnostic spiritual thing that we do. And when you think about, you know, fasting before the feast, you know, we have, you know, Advent is in the Orthodox tradition, David, you would know that, you know, that's the minor fast. Lent is the major fast. But,

But we jump right into the, you know, to Christmas and Easter, jump right over those times when, and that sort of disembodies the whole thing. And, you know, when you think about, even when we talk about New Year, you know, we think of New Year after Christmas, but actually the Christian New Year, right, is the beginning of Advent. You know, that's when it starts. The Christian New Year was four weeks ago. And the last Sunday of the year is Christ the King Sunday, right?

And then we're waiting. Then we go right into Advent. We're waiting for the arrival of the king, right? And then in Christmas, the incarnation, the king comes, you know? And then, you know, so then we go from there to Epiphany and, you know, Trinity Sunday and then into Pentecost and so forth, Easter and Pentecost. But what happens is that we jump all over these things.

important times right into the celebratory time and we actually miss you know the sort of the most you know bodily thing about our creaturehood uh that you know makes this an anthropological thing in in and of itself yeah yeah that's a very uh i just want to highlight something that i picked up from that

It's very interesting, Pastor, that you mentioned the liturgical thing, the fasting and the slow progression towards the feast. In ancient times, people would often deal with pent-up aggression by scapegoating or sacrificing a single victim.

And by observing these things in our times, the liturgical calendar and all of the ecclesial calendar and all of that, you can see how God has our, you know, the stress thing in mind. Yeah, that's right. Because, yeah, David probably can explain this better than I, but, you know,

it's like the even if you are like even if you're not following the calendar you know like christians we normally work on weekdays you know stress ourselves out but on sunday it's like uh or you know depending on if you believe the saturday is the sabbath or whatever you know if the on particular day is kept aside for you know a day of as a day of rest and the the feasting thing is uh

Again, we are gathering during Christmas time, we are gathering around the sacrifice, but it's a bloodless sacrifice.

It's a sacrifice of Christ. And, you know, this is how God turns the paganism of olden times upside down, you know, like inverse it into something that is completely void of violence. Yeah. And to add to that point, the Christmas time is usually around the time of the darkest day of the year. It's like December 23rd or 2nd. I think it was yesterday. I don't know. But, you know, that would be physiologically, if you get into the biology, which God is king of all things.

And that's not for the secularists that just because they come up with the word explains a molecule doesn't mean it's their domain. And then we do the stuff about Jesus. No, it's all God's. And the biology aspect of this is that we're at our most stressed in the darkest period of the time. Nighttime is stressful for the human body. That's why we sleep.

We sleep through the nighttime because literally, physiologically, what goes on in your body, you're in a stress state, which is the parasympathetic system. This is what Dr. Ray Peet used to teach us about on our show. And that's where we put all things under headship of Christ, not FDA or anything like that. But, you know, that's the point is that, you know, isn't it nice that...

regardless of what the literal date of Christmas, Jesus's birthday was, it's nice that we get to celebrate the coming of Christ at the most stressful period of the year. And isn't it interesting also what Sir had said about how, you know, you do have that rituals and pagans of getting out your pent up aggression. We still have pent up aggression with our uncles and aunts. We just fight it over the Turkey. Who's getting the last wing or not. That's a lot better than it used to be. You do human sacrifice before. Yeah.

But you know, this was also built into, you know, culture in many different ways. You know, this was in the middle ages, you know, the reason for the circus, the Mardi Gras, you know, all these things were, these were the safety valves that released all the pent up aggression, you know, because it's, it's, it's, it's, it's embedded in what it means to be a human being that has to take place or it's going to result in violence. Right.

And human beings have devised all different kinds of ways to expel all that pent up aggression. To your point, look at the old legends, Frosty, the snowman, human sacrificial vestige. Yeah. Melts. Yeah. Gingerbread man. He eaten. He is eaten. Look at that. A little, little, little token creature. And then you eat it. Next you're going to tell me watching football makes you want to eat. Yeah.

I think it mimetically gives you a little bit of concussion. I think, you know, your mirror neurons get a little bit of head trauma every time they take a big one on the head. Bam, bam, bam. Watch that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jason, what do we need to know about what we can do? I know, you know, with what you've got going on, you know, with the Vulnerable People Project, what are we doing with that situation? What can people know about this right now during Christmas? I can't help but vacillate between the joy of Christmas, but the sorrow that, you know, how is it that the Mary's Magnificat

It's so explicitly political, and yet the last thing people talk about in Sunday services about Christmas is the political aspect. I mean, Lord, 2,000 years, we're still not talking about it? No matter what church you go to, really, you don't really hear about that. I mean, it's like literally on the page. It's forbidden. It's not just that it's not there. It's actually forbidden. Why? Yeah, well, I think, David, for me personally, just with the nature of my work at the Vulnerable People Project,

My number one challenge is, Shannon, what was the word you used? Disheartened? You used a word that really struck me. It might have been disheartened or disenchanted. Disenchanted. I mean, I'm definitely disheartened. I'm disenchanted. I struggle with not being a sanctimonious jackass judging everyone because I care more about what's happening in Gaza than

You know, I was just at my daughter's Christmas recital and they sang Oh Little Town of Bethlehem in front of the Israeli flag. And all I kept seeing was streaming images in my brain. I actually made a video of it afterwards of children covered in rubble. And I'm looking around at everybody just angry. And my wife looked at me and she's like, what is wrong with you? I'm like, what? She's like, you look so angry. You know, what's going on?

And so for me, yeah, I recognize that these people should be allowed to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ with music and food and be happy. And so for me, that's a personal struggle that I'm wrestling with. And I struggle with being despondent. I'm working on an article now called The Banality of Good. I think that there's not much of a difference between me and Eichmann. Eichmann just took people to concentration camps. I try to take them away from death camps.

But at the end of the day, I think I just wake up and do my job. What's going to make my board happy, my donors happy? What did I say I was going to do? How am I going to do it? I don't think there's very little virtue anymore left in what I do. And if anything, I think I'm tempted to all sorts of, you know, at least on my mind, cruelty, you know, anger, being sanctimonious. So that's my like little spiritual exercise of this Christmas season. And the work that we're doing is we...

We're bringing trucks into Gaza with a partnership with another organization. They paid for the rice and we delivered 22 tons of rice into northern Gaza. And with Pastor Munther, we are now giving them a $50,000 grant for a job program to keep young people in the West Bank or Nazareth so they're not ethnically cleansed. This is the work that we're doing.

And just trying to humanize Palestinians. And, you know, I'm a conservative. You know, I've worked in and around the Republican Party and the conservative movement since I was 17 years old. So I think it's a great privilege for me to speak into the conservative movement on the dignity of Palestinians. But I recognize it comes with a lot of personal peril, the nature of my work. And I don't want to be a judgmental, sanctimonious jackass anymore.

And I want to celebrate Christmas with joy. And I don't want to be a black hole that sucks all the light out of my home for my five children and grandchildren and wife and in-laws that come into the house. So that's really the great struggle for me. But I think the one thing that we can all do, and it's just, I think all of us often feel alone. We're not alone, but we can feel lonely to see that we're kind of all on the same page.

It's really comforting. I didn't expect that, actually. And so for me, that's that's comforting. I think the one thing we can do is let, you know, Palestinians know that they're loved, that they have dignity, that they're not Amalekites, that they're not worthy of ethnic cleansing, that they're beautiful people, that the Christians are.

I know you have, Pastor Fitzgerald, know Palestinian Christians. The only thing that explains Palestinian Christians is what families look like that have clung to the gospel of Jesus Christ for 2,000 years. There's a unique dignity and kindness about them. Yeah, so I think that's my Christmas challenge, is let's pray for the persecuted church. Fulton Sheen, Bishop Fulton Sheen said, the foundation of solidarity in the world is

is care for Christians for one another across the world. That's the foundation. It's not the end. But if we can't love Christians in Bethlehem, how are we going to love a Yazidi or a Muslim in a Chinese concentration camp? This is impossible. So I think that we have to let these people know they're loved, especially those of us who are seen as conservative or look like this. You know, I walk around, I'm always virtue signaling with my Palestinian flag hat.

um because i i i think it's kind of striking i'll wear a palestinian shirt and this hat with a deep country boy ben i went to a concert recently and people are just looking at me like what what's wrong with that guy but i think it's important that we do that yeah amen i agree and i've worked with the yazidi population as well up in iraq uh kurdistan um similar situations uh but

What's dawned on me recently is because I hear people continually saying, you know, pray for the Christians, pray for the Christians. And I think if we approach this from an anthropological point of view, we should be praying for Muslims too and Christians together. They are created human beings just like everybody else. And that's the bottom line bedrock basis for

for our humanity and to kill, you know, and to try to destroy an entire population. And let's face it, these Muslims were something else before there were Muslims, because that didn't happen until the 7th century. And so they were either Christians and converted or they were Jewish and converted. But they are the original indigenous people there, at least since the Ottoman Empire.

And so we should pray for everyone. You know, I mean, I look at it, you know, as Paul said, you know, do good to all people, especially the household of God. And we should pray and do good for everyone and especially the household of God. But, you know, I think what I see happening is among a lot of evangelicals, especially is.

This sort of, you know, we are sort of on the same page as Israel is dehumanizing the Muslims that happen to be Palestinian too. And yet still trying to humanize the Christians that happen to be Palestinians too. And I think we have to broaden that, you know, considerably and remember that

you know, look, these, you know, these are, these are people that were something else before they were Muslims and, you know, Christianity precedes Islam. And that these people, you know, have been there since the beginning. And, and I think, you know, they, they are all in a special class and the way that I view that. And, and, you know, this is, this is one of the

most horrendous things that I've seen in as much as it's taken place so fast, you know, killing so many people over such a short amount of time, creating the destruction. And, you know, I've met with Palestinians coming out of the Rafah Gate and, you know, as they come into Cairo and

And it's heartbreaking. And these are all Muslims. I don't know that I've ever met a Christian yet that has immigrated out. I'm sure they're there. And so let's pray for all people and especially the household of God. And Pastor, I want you to know I'm not...

undermine the dignity of the Muslims. In fact, most of the people we serve in Gaza are Muslim, and we evacuated a lot of Muslim women and children and wounded people. Amen. Amen. But I do, as a tactic, we're not going to tell people, but I do try to use as a tactic to capture and confuse Christian Zionists. You know you're killing Christians, too. Right. So many times they don't even know there are Palestinian Christians, which is so...

They're like, or when did they get converted? Oh, when they met Jesus. What? Yeah. When a white guy from England showed up. What do you mean? Yeah. I think this is part of the Palestinians problem. I've been thinking about this. We care about black African Christians. Yeah.

Why don't we care about the apostolic churches across the Middle East? Right. Because they're not our children. We're their children. Yeah. And it's some kind of pride. Yeah. Yeah. So we can go to Africa and feel like, oh, we brought the gospel here in the 19th century, da-da-da-da-da. But when it comes to a people that brought the gospel to us, it's very uncomfortable. Yeah. It's a form of supremacy, you know. You know, there's a lot of...

supremacy within the church. You know, we have all the answers. You know, our violence is good violence. Their violence is bad violence. And, you know, I just think there's too much superiority in the way that we do it. I appreciate what you do, Jason. And I know that's what you meant. So I wasn't confused about that at all. We need to listen to Miriam's Magnificat this Christmas, not Daily Wire when it comes to learning human life.

That's what it's about, folks. There's a reason why Jordan Peterson is promoted on that program, because that's the mythologization that we're fighting against. If you're a Christian, you stand against that, and you recognize the human personhood of all human beings, no matter what their ethnicity is. And let me be clear here, Christ is the master of history.

And every time you slaughter an innocent, you are sowing the rapid destruction of your power and legitimacy that Christ's kingdom represents. It's just inevitable. It's like telling you the sun's going to rise up tomorrow. It's part of the way God's universal mandate for the kingdom of heaven operates.

The first shall be last. The last shall be first. And that's why, no matter what the conflict is, they always have to play by the rules that Jesus established. No, my group is the most victimized. That's why I can kill their kid. No, my group is the most victimized. That's why I can kill their kid. And Christ says, you don't kill anybody's kid. You don't do that. Right. And we're not mythologizing this as a way to clean up your room. No, this is stop killing the kids. Amen. Okay. Amen.

Well, we sure did go in on Jordan Friederson. Poor Jordan. We made a scapegoat on Jordan. The purpose of the gospel, though, you boil it down, David, is when you wake up, make your bed. That was the whole point. Make your bed. Yeah, that's real convenient when you got to keep that subscription going and kids are being killed in America's money. Yeah, that's what you do. You make up your bed.

Here's the good news. In five years, Jordan Peterson will be making a video on the genocide in Gaza and why Christians were silent. Right. It's not still going on. Goodness gracious. Five years from now, who will be left? No, it'll be history. They'll talk about the past. Yeah, why didn't we do something? You know what, Gerard, has helped me, guys? I don't know if it's with you, but

When I was a young conservative Republican and opposed the invasion of Iraq, it was scary. You know, I had ambitions and hopes and aspirations. I wanted to be useful. But I realized or I felt that I was destroying my utility. You know, and I was I wasn't going to shut up. But I I felt like I was on a suicide mission. But what I've learned is.

The crucifixions and resurrections happen very quickly now. So I know that I wouldn't have the courage right now to be silent on Gaza because those of us who accept, you know, I've had a major network say they're not going to have me back on until after Gaza.

And I said, well, then you're going to have me on 10 times more because you'll be so proud to have me on, won't you? So we just, Gerard has helped me not fear crucifixion. Praise the Lord. Because I know the resurrection is right around the corner. One way or the other. Very good. Jim, where can we find out about Equipping Pastors International? I know you guys are doing great work over there too. EquippingPastorsInternational.com. You can go there and find out about it.

The work we do in the Middle East and North Africa is not in detail there. It just mentions that that's where I serve. We have missionaries all over the world serving.

By the way, I just want to let you know, John 17 says, Jesus says, one of the most important prayers, he says, I wish above all else that they were one, as you and I are one, so that the whole world would know that you sent me. Right now we have people from Orthodoxy, Catholicism, and Protestantism all agreeing in agreement that we have to follow Christ and do a better job ourselves. So let's use this as a starting point, okay? If you can use a manger...

How much more so, you know, look, we've got a podcast. Let's get a little lowly little podcast and let it trickle mimetically through the ages, right? And do our little part.

Dave, what I love about you is the way you broke in with, hey, I just want to let you know, I really thought you were about to sell Relief Factor. Then you came in with the gospel. I'm like, okay. I was like, what's he selling? Oh, the gospel. Just want to let you know the show's brought to you by Relief Factor. I thought it was that greens they do. Those greens. Vita greens. It's like old stale kale. I don't know. Yeah.

But anyways, you know, it's always the same three ads, you know? Goodness. Yeah. All right, guys. Thanks and Merry Christmas to all of you and whatever your calendar is. It's okay. Jesus is still king. Don't worry about your calendar so much. I mean, everything is so fixated on the dumb stuff, you know? It's about, you know...

Dave, when's the show going up? Because I have a Christmas shopping tip for everyone. Okay, go ahead. It's going to come up Christmas Eve. All right, listen, it's Christmas Eve. You're probably too late, but here's how you beat the Christmas rush. Not me. Go to the nail salon. Get gift certificates for a mani-pedi. There is no line. No line at the nail salon. Right, right, man. That's what I do. Tomorrow, nail salon. Yeah.

You're welcome. Bye. Thank you. Take me later.