Budget 2025 help for larger families is neither reward nor incentive: Indranee Rajah
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You're listening to a CNA Podcast. Hey guys, it's Stephen and Crispina with you. Thanks for joining us again on Deep Dive. And this time we're talking about the budget because the announcement came out and I called it a Goodyear budget because it was like so good and there's even more stuff being given out throughout the year. Yeah, aside from the goodies though, there's a lot of serious work that happens between now and the end of March. The budget kicks off a series of plans and changes that each ministry will start to implement. So they have to have it approved

That's right. And we want to find out what's going on. So in fact, we're going to speak to many of the folks who work behind the scenes, many of the politicians there.

We're going to kick things off today with someone who really needs no introduction. She's Miss Indrani Raja, Second Minister of Finance. Hello and welcome. Thank you. Thanks for having me. So you must be quite tired doing back-to-back budget interviews. There have been quite a few, yeah. Let's kick things off. We had a look through our social media and there were some mixed reactions to budget. People are always grateful. I speak for everyone when I say we love the CDC vouchers, for sure, and the top-ups and the rebates. But, you know,

there was a sense some people were saying maybe this is kind of short-term solution, right? There might be some longer-term infrastructural costs which are baked in like transportation, utilities, slow wage growth. I'm sure you get those questions too about...

we still feel that stuff is expensive how do you guys normally respond you have to ask yourself what is the budget and the budget is a strategic plan it is our financial plan for the singapore family yes right and when you're thinking about family the most important thing is first immediate needs and so there's this whole section on tackling the cost pressures so your cdc vouchers come under that your utilities come under that and all the various forms of help and that's

in the immediate and shorter term because that's where people feel the pain. But if you look carefully at the budget, you can see that it also positions us for the future. So immediately after that, Prime Minister talked about advancing our growth frontier. And there were three strategies to that, right? There was the digital and innovation strategy.

There was growing the enterprise ecosystem and then investing in our infrastructure. And some of that is like really, really long-term, including the coastal resilience and securing our future energy needs like nuclear, for example. After that, there was the whole social part.

where you're talking about seniors, long-term care, helping the vulnerable, helping those with disabilities. Then there was the whole part about sustainability and how we have to develop the infrastructure for the nation, like transportation and so on, but at the same time have green living conditions.

And then, of course, you talked about fiscal position and how we should have unity. So you can see that the budget has different components. But most people will look at the part that's relevant to them. Of course. That's right. And I guess it is important because the day-to-day needs...

have risen. Cost of living is going up. People feel it the most, right? Yes. So addressing the immediate needs is important. You've touched on many issues, but one that is most pronounced, of course, has to do with families. Yes. We are encouraging more families. You would know this very well, being in charge of, we've talked to you about this before, our population, we're struggling to have more kids. So now there is a push for larger families. Do you think this sort of monetary push is the way to go? Because many families have said, yes, the money is nice, but

I want more support in other ways, in other areas, like time, more childcare leave, things like that. So you're absolutely right. This year's budget adds in something new to actually a whole raft of new measures that we have put in in the last few years. And every budget builds on the previous one. We really embarked on this journey in late 2020, early 2021, having conversations with Singaporean parents.

And we realised very quickly that top of mind concerns for them were obviously costs of raising children. Time is a currency, the shortage there. Preschool, childcare and the work-life balance part. So if you look at what we've done in the previous budgets, we enhanced the baby bonus cash gift. Then we enhanced the child development account.

Then we gave a little signal by saying that paternity leave, we're going to increase, but voluntarily first, additional two weeks, but soon to become mandatory. And then we also extended the unpaid infant care leave. Then the big piece came last year when we said that we're going to make...

the additional two weeks of government-paid paternity leave mandatory. And on top of that, the shared parental leave. Shared parental leave is the big one in terms of giving parents more time with newborns. So it's 10 weeks of government-paid shared parental leave, six weeks this year, and then additional four weeks next year, so 10 weeks. And when you add it up together with maternity leave, paternity leave, that would be about 30 weeks leave in total. Okay.

Then we turned our attention to the large families because having dealt with all of those, just even trying to get them to have the first and the second one, the feedback that came to us was that, well, having children is expensive. And then when you add on the third child, the fourth child, it's not just, you know, one child, exactly same amount of cost. Actually, the cost can expand. So we were trying to work out how to do that. And that's why this year's budget has the large family scheme.

Yeah, that was interesting to us. I mean, we talked about this before. Because the average household size in Singapore is quite small. It's 3.1, right? Which is basically like two parents, a child. Most of the people we speak to say that's their threshold. So,

You think these incentives for larger families more like a reward for those who think, or really incentive? No, it's neither. It's not meant to be an incentive, nor is it meant to be a reward. Because you can't look at it that way. If incentive is like, oh, I give you money, then out pops a kid. It cannot work like that, you know? Well, if you give enough money, maybe. No, I don't think so. No, there's never enough money. Are you kidding? And reward also seems to be the wrong kind of signal. It's really...

Okay. Meaning that if you would like to have a third kid, government's here to help. And we've got your back and we're giving you extra help. Right. And it's designed such that the third kid is the charm, right? Yes.

The third kid comes along, the third kid unlocks that additional CDA for Step Grant. Like the game, your next level. Then you can level up to four. And it's not just to be used only for that child, but for the other children as well. Because CDA can be used for your siblings. Because otherwise it would be very odd, right? The third child comes along and says, I get $10,000. The rest of you just, you're the $5,000 group. Cannot.

so the idea was the $10,000 is for everyone then the $5,000 additional Medisave grant the mother can use that for pregnancy etc and then for each kid that's the third child and above they each get the $1,000 LifeSG credits but

that benefits the whole family because you can use it for the family. But why only third kid and beyond? Why couldn't we have started with second kid, for instance? Because most families are one to two children. What we're trying to do is trying to get people over that next hurdle. But we already don't have enough to replace ourselves to some extent. So if we were willing to, yeah, more support. Because again, as we all know, having a child in this day and age is important.

And then the cost, also because maybe it's our own expectations as parents. You always want the best for your kids, right? Yeah, I think so. Because when we were growing up, you know, it was different. We had a lot more cousins and our uncles and aunties didn't seem to mind having more children. That's right. And our cousins turned out generally okay. Some of them. Okay.

Okay, coming back to this idea of what's in it for me, right? I know that's a very natural kind of thing and some parents were hoping for more childcare leave, right? Because they were saying that, okay, each parent has six days and then if you have more kids, you know, they fall sick, etc. But...

But help us understand, okay, so adjusting this lever cannot be easy because you're now talking about workplaces, right? You're talking about employers. You're not just talking about the parent with leave. Maybe you can share a little bit more about people who are expecting more leave, for example. I fully understand that. But don't forget, we've just made a very major move with the shared parental leave of 10 weeks. PM announced that last year at NDR, right? And for the employers, that's like, huh?

Huge step for them. They need time to recover. They need time, not just to recover, but obviously to put in place the processes to adjust. Because if somebody is out of the workplace for, let's say, even three weeks, four weeks, five weeks, and if one parent takes the full six weeks this year, or one parent takes the full 10 weeks, the company is stuck. They need to find somebody to replace and to cover. So the employers told us, I mean, we had extensive discussions with Singapore Business Federation as well as SNEF.

and they said that the employers would really appreciate a bit of lead time. So after taking on board their feedback, we split it into six and four rather than putting it full ten as we wanted to. Having done that, if you're going to load them up with additional childcare on top of that, then they'll be like, but

who's in the office left to work, right? So we're like, okay, one step at a time. So I'm not ruling out additional childcare, but I think we have to think quite carefully about that. Because I'm not sure whether you've noticed, but there's something else happening right now in the workplace where there's a pushback in other countries to the whole work from home thing, everybody back in the office. So you get this sort of pendulum swing. It's almost in other countries as though it's reached one end of the swing and it's

Coming back. And in Singapore, we try to avoid these wild pendulum swings. For us, rather than work from home, we're saying flexible work arrangements, which can accommodate other types of work arrangements, not just working from home. Yeah, flexibility really is key, I think, for many families. If you can manage the way you work, you can manage your family so much better. But you need to take into account the employer's viewpoint. Yeah, it really depends on...

that whole relationship with your employer, the type of job you do. Some jobs we know clearly you can't be a nurse and work from home, right? In a sense. Yes. Although what has happened is they have managed, I think it was Tan Tok Singh that managed to implement flexible work arrangements for the nurses. So I think they work certain shifts and then they're able to take time off.

off. So you can do it provided you have good HR, good job redesign. That's something that requires a lot of investment in terms of planning and deciding that we are going to go this way. I mean, is that something where, again, the government could step in to say, get more organisations thinking about this route of flexibility? Because right now, for some, it's either you do or you don't. Yeah, that's why Ministry of Manpower worked together with NTUC and the employers to have the tripartite guidelines.

So the tripartite guidelines came out last year and it's really sort of guidelines helping the employers to think about how to implement flexible work arrangements and also requiring them to consider any requests. I mean, they can still say no, but you must have a good reason for saying no. Yeah, it's very hard. I mean, I have friends who ask for flexible work arrangements regularly.

And then the whole process of getting them there is still work in progress, right? Yeah. So we've got to figure out how to be able to be productive at work, productive at home, and make sure that companies have enough buffer. Because if somebody's taking time out, somebody has to cover, unless that person is really efficient from working from home. Yeah. That's the tough part. So just finishing up the conversation on family, people always make fun of our low TFR. Yep.

I wanted to ask you, of all the tough cases you had as a lawyer when you were practising, this must be your toughest case. The unsolved case. Other cases are a lot easier because you can say, this is the rule, you haven't complied, here's the penalty, right? But this is different. This is like encouraging, nudging, exhorting, being supportive. But I think that if as a country and as a society, we...

we're much more supportive of families and understanding and the parents who are employees also work things out with the employers it would be so much better and what government can do is start with the policies that signal that hence the shared parental leave hence large family scheme etc because you're really telling society at large families are important and actually you're

think about it, they are. Put the money aside, families are the ones we love. They're our biggest cheerleaders when we have problems and when we have difficulties, we go to them. And they're also the ones that make it all worthwhile. That's right. Yeah. And it begins at home because if you don't have a happy home, a happy family, then so many other aspects of your life suffer as well. So let's talk more about work because that is often a concern, especially for older workers or those who are saying, great, I've got skills future, there's all this money there. But sometimes it's

It doesn't seem to be the right choice. I'm not sure what I should be taking on. I'm not sure what are the jobs of the future. And I'm not sure if I learn this now, whether two years from now, it'll be irrelevant. Is there a way to better support people who are in this position? Yes, that's one of the reasons why we're looking also at better career guidance.

Because the idea behind career guidance is to empower people to take charge of their career choices. I mean, you don't know what you don't know, right? So one day you may lose your job and then you want a new job, but you don't know with your current skill sets what may be relevant. It always helps to talk to somebody, whether it's a HR professional, whether it's somebody from NTUC or whatever, just to get a sense of what's out there. And once you know what's out there, then the next thing is...

what amongst that do I like? Then if I like this, do I have the skills? And if I don't have the skills, how can I go and acquire the skills? So you need to go through that thought process and work out what suits for you.

I notice a lot of emphasis on the Singaporean worker in this budget and rightfully so. As a government, you have to care for the lower wage workers, the middle guys and also the people who are professionals, PMETs, and then finding that there are new shifts now that they maybe cannot cope with. What is the government seeing about job displacement, for instance, or skills gaps that's making this quite urgent for us to be invested in?

It's really the pace of change. In the last decade, it was digitalisation. Now it's innovation and AI. Things are changing so quickly and the world's not going to stop for us just because we're Singaporean. What we want to do is make sure that Singaporeans are equipped to be able to deal with this fast-changing dynamic world. So that would be the broad group of workers involved.

Okay.

want to talk about pivoting it's one of the things that we talk a lot about in our work podcast which we try to get people to understand that okay maybe you can pivot to be employable for a longer time

In reality though, there's some friction on the ground. So I'll give you an example. I have a friend who was an educator and decided to do counselling. So she went and did a degree. She really struggled because she had to hold on a full-time job and then study. So the interesting thing is now that she's ready...

The jobs that she has to apply for are entry-level kind of pay scale. This is the system, right? I mean, this is an economy. That's how people would pay. You don't have the experience even though you're in your late 40s. So the trying to pivot is tough. Do you see this, you know... Because she had to take a big pay cut as well. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I think that that's a fair point because...

It really depends on whether you have a progressive and enlightened employer. If just because you've now got this new qualification, if the employer treats you as a completely new entrant to the job market, discounting the experience that you have from your previous job, that's probably not very fair as well. But on the other hand, the employer may not be able to give you the same pay that it would somebody who's been at this for five, six years. That's right. That's why I think good HR is very important. Right.

where you design and you look at your HR structure and you place people just right, taking into account not just their paper qualifications, but their experience. Because some skills are portable. Some people are very experienced and they're good at dealing with people beyond just paper qualifications. Yeah, that's right. I mean, or you could just start first.

and then hopefully move on. When you have your meet the people sessions, for example, when you speak to your residents and all that, what are some of the common areas of concern when it comes to jobs for them? Well, I did have a case just the other night. Guy was 38 years old and hadn't been working for some time because he was caring for his mum. But he was at the point where he felt that he needed to start getting a job and he wasn't sure how to start.

At all. So I was glad I was able to tell him there was such a thing as SkillsFuture. I asked him what was his previous qualification. He said a NITEC, which means that he has quite a lot of options because he can go back to a higher NITEC or depending on what type of NITEC he had, he may be able to go on to poly or he can do some of the SkillsFuture courses. I wrote to WSG for him to see how they can assist him.

But for somebody like that, actually having skills future programs is so important. Because otherwise, where would he even begin? And also for people who, you know, suddenly find themselves retrenched, right? I'm hearing quite a lot of that, you know, in their 40s and 50s. And then they're like...

okay, where do I go? So actually, there's a lot of support to go to. It's just that temporarily, it sounds like quite a blow after having worked so long. Actually, for the group who has just lost their job involuntarily, that means not by choice, don't forget that this is the year that the JobSeeker Support Scheme kicks in. So PM announced that last year, but

this year's budget will obviously support that. That is, I think, $6,000 for the first six months with, I think, $1,500 paid out in the first month to give the person some breathing space so that they can go for training and they can also tap

obviously, on the Skills Future and other courses. Yeah. There's a place where they can go, where they can say, okay, these are my skills, this is what I can offer, and then somebody will help them. That's right. At least open some doors, I don't know. At the start. But the other thing that's good, I think there's also the, for the skills upgrading, there's now, the funding is open to part-time courses as well. So I think that's important because

If you can start planning in a way for our retirement, you know, like our second careers, I don't know. I mean, most of us are not thinking about it, but it would be good if we could. Me, yeah. I love to eat Hokkien Mee and Char Kway Teow. So I've been trying to sign up for a course to learn how to do it. But I haven't got around to it yet. I think you better do apprenticeship.

Yeah, hands-on. They won't even let me in the kitchen there first. I don't think I'll buy from you. Yeah, thanks, thanks. You never know. But for the part-time one, don't forget that there's some who may want to do the courses part-time just simply to be able to equip themselves better for their current job. Ah. Because they're stacking up skills, right? Yeah, so exactly. So there were two types, right? Some people think that, oh, okay, I can use my credits to do things I really want. Yeah.

all the fun things that I want to do. And then the others really think about jobs. Like, okay, social media skills is going to be really important. I want to do that. What would you use yours for, Crispy? Social media skills. Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. Aminista, what about you? Second life, second career, if you could start? Maybe graphic design because I like design. Okay. Can you draw? Yeah.

I can draw a certain amount but I'm not never mind now there's no technology she must have been good at art that's okay one last question and I want to touch on ageing because your mum is she's 101 wow her birthday is next month oh wow happy birthday no I've seen her pictures she looks incredible fabulous so having to care for her seeing how long her life was

What do you think is your own, when you think about it, like in your mind, is an ideal plan for aging? Well, I think you have to stay healthy both physically and mentally. And this is why MOHs push for

going beyond treating illness to building health is very important. They introduce Grow Well SG that's for children and then they've got Healthier SG to sort of help you in that journey through life and Age Well SG as you get older. So,

what you eat, what you do, whether you have enough sleep, how you cope with stress. All of that has an impact on how you're going to be when you reach a certain age. And do you think the way we have it now in terms of the support in caring for our elderly folks, our seniors, is that another area? I mean, I know there's more being given again for caregiving and home caregivers and things like that.

We know we are an ageing population and this is going to be a bigger concern. Yes, it's going to be an increasing and a growing concern. We've started that journey, but I think it's going to be coming on us quite quickly. So this budget basically shores up support for that. It increases the subsidy and the coverage for the residential care for the long term. Care at home and the community increases the caregiver grant.

Because you're not going to be able to put everybody in a nursing home and not everybody needs that. Or wants to. Or wants that. HDB has been looking at community care apartments where they can live alone independently but tap in the community. HDB is exploring other kinds of community living models. But at the same time, for those who want to age in place, then obviously you need to have more support for the caregiver at home. And

In the HDB estate or if you're living in private property, your amenities nearby, there must be stuff that you can do, whether it's exercise equipment or for walking or whatever, so that you basically can enable yourself to have a healthy lifestyle. Yeah, I would like to stay in a place with fellow old pals.

Yeah, okay. I'll see you in how many years? I don't know whether you remember that series, Golden Girls. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was fabulous. Yeah, but they didn't seem old, right? And they didn't seem like they needed money too. Although, I thought to myself, I would be scared to be in that home with them, you know. So, they just looked... Yeah, never mind. Another story for another day. The grandmother was the cutest. She's the best. She's the best. Okay, and

Do you have any last things you want to say about the budget? I mean, you know, having seen through so many budgets now. Well, I think this budget, what makes it extra special is that many of the measures were designed with input from Singaporeans. This was part of the Forward SG exercise.

And Budget 2025 gives voice to Singaporeans' aspirations. And it also positions us to the future because, as PM said, we actually are in a new paradigm. The geopolitical situation is changing. The world economy, innovation, AI, that's changing the face of how you do business today.

And with this kind of changing backdrop, you have to make sure that we are well positioned to go into the future. And that's what this budget does. It positions us for that. So giving hope, giving inspiration and just telling Singaporeans, it's okay, don't worry, we've got your back.

Thanks so much for coming in and speaking with us and sharing your thoughts on this. For those of you listening in, if you have any thoughts to share, any feedback, please jump online and let us know as well. We would do love to hear from you. Yeah. Thanks, folks, for listening. We'll be back soon. The team behind Deep Dive is Stephanie Ang, Junaini Johari, Sayer Winn, Joanne Chan, and Hanida Amin. We'll see you next week. Bye for now. Bye. Bye.