gayer than ever with Tiana
44:54 Share

Today's episode is brought to you by Angie. Angie has made it easier than ever to connect with skilled professionals to get all your jobs and projects done well. Let me tell you, there's the version of it where you try to do something at home and then there's a version of it where you have someone help you, you watch them do it the right way and you go, thank God I didn't try to do that myself.

I have fully done things around the home that I think look good and then a bang in the night and I wake up to a shelf collapsing, a painting falling off the wall. Like it, I've seen it all go south. I own a home and I can tell you, I know how much work it can take. Whether it's everyday maintenance and repairs or making dream projects a reality, it can be hard just to know where to start. But now all you need to do is Angie that.

and find a skilled local pro who will deliver the quality and expertise you need. Whatever your home project, big or small, indoor or outdoor, you can Angie that and connect with skilled professionals to get the project done well. Right now, one of my wishlists is I want a bike for my condo in Milwaukee, and I would love...

to rig it up on a pulley in the ceiling because I have one of those like lofted ceilings, but I'm so scared to try that on my own. Angie has 20 years of home experience and they've combined it with new tools to simplify the whole process. Bring them your project online or with the Angie app. Answer a few questions and Angie can handle the rest from start to finish or help you compare quotes from multiple pros and connect instantly, which means you can take care of any home project in just a few taps.

This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Whether you're selling a little or a lot...

Shopify helps you do your thing, however you cha-ching. From the launch your online shop stage, all the way to the we just hit a million orders stage. No matter what stage you're in, Shopify's there to help you grow. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.com slash special offer, all lowercase. That's shopify.com slash special offer.

Ew, I'm nervous. I'm nervous. I'm actually really nervous. Okay, hi guys. My name is Shannon Beveridge. I am the host of X's and O's, a podcast where we talk about queer relationships and sex. 🎵

Today, I'm so excited. A very special episode. My friend Tiana is here. She is a senior producer at Variety. She has interviewed lots of A-list celebrities. Maybe recently you may have seen a viral interview she did with Billie Eilish on the red carpet. Today, we're going to talk all things...

coming out, sexuality, the importance of coming out in 2023, what it means, what is proper, and yeah, it should be interesting. Thank you for having me on, Shannon. I'm really excited to chat with you. I'm so excited. I feel like the vibes are right. The vibes are good. The vibes are good. Do you feel nervous to be interviewed as a usual interviewer? I think maybe this is the first time I've actually been interviewed. Really? Like ever? Yeah.

Yeah, I think so, actually. Okay, no pressure for me. I just put that together. As you said, I'm usually the one doing the interviewing. So it's a different dynamic. I don't mind it, though. Very different. And also, I'm intimidated. No, you don't. You are like, this is your full-blown job. I guess now it's kind of my job, too. Well, it's definitely your job, too, in a podcast. So you got it. She's got it. Got it. Got it.

Early days for me. So anyway, give me grace as we navigate this interview. You are totally fine. She's doing great. Do people like know that you're queer? Is that like something that you're super open about with variety and like when you're doing interviews, does it come out a lot, like come up a lot? I'm pretty open about my queerness. I think like I always have been once I realized that I was queer. I don't think it's anything shameful. So I'm very open at work. I enjoy having queer conversations with my friends. I think visibly...

depending on the day, I maybe am not the queerest looking person, but then I know I got some tattoos and stuff. There's some queer flagging, I guess. We can see it. I mean, the queers would know you're queer. Yes. And if they don't, I would tell them. You're married. I'm married. Yes. I have a beautiful wife. I can't like she's the best person. And I think

together as well like even you asking about queerness a lot of you know we get mistaken as the friends and that whole thing so we're kind of always coming out and telling people hey this is my wife interesting you and your wife don't look alike though right we do not look like the sister thing

We have gotten sisters and I kind of always throw it back like, do you think we look alike when people ask that? You guys are, you're Italian and she's Irish? Yeah, she's like from Ireland accent. Yeah. You know, like. How could you be related? I don't know. She has an accent, has blue eyes and blonde hair and. Doesn't matter though. People will still mistake us for sisters. It's anything but a couple. Yeah, anything but that. Once we got on our honeymoon, once we got mother daughter. No. No.

Take that back. Yeah. Who was the mother and who was the daughter? That's the question. Who was which one? That is the tea. What's your age difference? Like, the same if... She's a year older than me. Yeah, okay. Like, if you have long hair to people, that alone equates to straight. Straight presenting, yeah. Straight until proven gay, at least. Yeah. I mean...

You can always cut your hair short because I've had to come out a lot less recently. Okay. Well, I don't look good with short hair. Okay. I love it on you. I just... I can't pull it off. Yeah. No, if anything, now I'm also getting like misgendered for the first time. I'm like... I know that I'm androgynous a little, but it keeps happening to me. And it keeps happening to me on airplanes especially. And I'm like... Oh, okay. A lot of sirs. I'm like, okay. I was joking about this in a TikTok recently, but...

You know, like straight men who people are always like, you're a little gay, you're a little gay. And they're like so confident in their sexuality that they don't even care if people think they're gay. Yeah. That's how I feel about people thinking I'm a boy. I'm like, I'm so comfortable in my gender expression. Yes. And I'm like...

not triggering to me. I'm just like whatever yeah. I'm a girl. That's like beautiful that you can handle it that way. Thank you so much. Thank you. I could not be more excited that the first sponsor of X's and O's is a queer founded and queer owned business Tomboy X. Nothing, nothing, nothing makes me happier than promoting queer owned companies. Finding underwear that makes me feel both confident and comfortable has always been a struggle for me and

With Tomboy X, I finally am able to marry both of those things together. The styles Tomboy X carry genuinely make me feel hot, sexy,

So, so hot. As someone who's been shopping in the boys section for a long time, the one area that usually falls short for me is the underwear because they just don't fit right. But Tomboy X has solved that problem for me and I will be living in their boy shorts forever now. If you want to pick up a pair of your own or shop their other styles, please go to www.tomboyx.com slash shannonforever.

We're 20% off the entire website. How is your coming out story? We're never done coming out. That's the thing. No. That's something they don't tell you. You're never done. I come out in a new environment, new friends, new job. I come out every time I say spouse and someone thinks I'm talking about a husband. That, I kind of feel like it's always changing and evolving. But my initial first coming out story, I guess, was I really tried to normalize

I just had told my mom like, hey, I'm dating women now. We had a conversation about it and it was very positive and supportive. And then we kind of just, I updated her as I went along. That's so nice. Yeah. And then obviously like there's as well the coming out to the rest of your family. And that maybe didn't even actually properly happen until I met my wife and

We started getting a little bit more serious. We moved in together and I tried to normalize it as best as possible. Just being like, hey, like, this is somebody I love and we're living together. And I'm very of the mind that if people are going to be homophobic, those are not people I want to associate myself with. So I just kind of owned my truth in that. And so fair. But everyone was really receptive. And I know not everyone has that experience. Do you want to?

Explain to us what happened in your interviewing process recently and the attention that you've gotten from that, etc. Yeah, I mean, for those who don't know, so my job is basically to interview people. I interview a lot of celebrities. I do a lot of cover stories for video specifically. In this situation, Billie Eilish had done a cover story, a print cover story with Variety.

in which she expressed her same-sex attractions. She said she was attracted to women, she was physically attracted to them. I did a separate cover video to go along with the story, you know, we rolled for 40 minutes, talked entirely about her music and her lyrics. Even in that video, she had mentioned a little bit of her attraction to women. It was more obvious and blatant in the print story, so that, you know, story came out and outlets were picking it up and saying, you know, she's expressed her attraction to women, she's come out, and

It was kind of like this beautiful moment. And it was also something that she had offered up unprovoked. And then I was the reporter on our Hitmakers event, a red carpet event. And I had an interview with her. And my first question I had asked her about the cover story, nothing related to sexuality. And it was more about just how she had felt about women being

Coming to support her, right? Yeah. It was about... She had expressed both in the video and in the print story that she always felt like women didn't really like her. And I had asked her about that because I was like, has your mind changed? Because after that story, people were going to be like her. People were stoked. Yeah. As a viewer, just someone watching all that come out, the reception seemed so positive to everything that happened. So positive. So I had mentioned that question and then...

she willingly kind of brought it up and said in her response, I think women are pretty, but I'm still scared of them. So I thought, oh, okay, like this is the conversation we're having. We're going there. So I kind of asked about the comments made in that story and she was very open about it. It felt like just a beautiful queer conversation. I had asserted that I was queer as well, which I think she may have already had known from our previous conversations, you know, the video we had done.

I was kind of left feeling, oh, that was a really positive conversation for the community. And then as soon as she expressed, she was nervous. I changed the subject and I asked her about her upcoming album, you know, in 2024. And that was kind of it. She gave me a big hug, walked off, and I thought everything was fine. There was a lot of LGBTQ plus people celebrating it online after.

Yeah. It was like a really big moment to see that like representation and just that, hey, like two queer women had a very normalized conversation. Like back to what we said, very casual. Yeah. Just very casual, sweet little... Yeah. Diddle. Yeah. And then I think...

I, along with a lot of other people, were absolutely shocked when she posted what she did saying that, you know, she had accused myself and Variety of outing her on the carpet. And I thought that was just such an irresponsible word to use for something that didn't happen. You know, I did not out Billie Eilish. Variety did not out Billie Eilish. So seeing that, I just, I felt...

sad for the LGBTQ plus community thinking that they got representation and you know a proud advocate but instead they got mixed messages so that was definitely the heartbreaking part for me yeah I would say mixed messages it definitely because it it started so casual and then that the word outed is pretty intense language I would say and it went from oh this casual sweet it's very chill to like

No, it's not chill. If I was someone reading or watching and seeing that, I would definitely, I don't know, it could affect me as a little queer person just thinking like, wait, are we stoked about this or we hate this? Are we supposed to be happy for you or we're not supposed to be happy? Like, what is it? The biggest thing is people keep asking me, what do you think happened? And obviously I don't know. Yeah, like what changed? What changed? And I think for me, it's more, you know, yeah, we have to ask ourselves what happened in the 24 hours after that happened.

change somebody's mind like that or you know somebody maybe shamed her about the comments she made and I understand like talking about sexuality can be uncomfortable and you might get nervous about it and that's okay but it was willingly brought up not by me so I think that's where I was confused the confusion comes from yeah the words and are like words hold so much meaning and especially to the queer community so hearing the word outed when that's not the case hearing that it

These conversations don't matter. Like I promise they matter. They matter so much to me. That's why I do what I do. Like,

as a queer journalist, like we have conversations that matter and can be difficult and it's your whole job. Yeah. And I would never ever do that to somebody. So if I had gotten even the inclination that that wasn't okay, I would have stopped even the expression of, Oh, I'm nervous. I was like, okay, I'll change the subject. Let's talk about your album. So yeah, it was quite shocking to me. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Shopify, whether you're selling a little or a lot.

Shopify helps you do your thing, however you cha-ching. From the launch your online shop stage all the way to the we just hit a million orders stage. No matter what stage you're in, Shopify's there to help you grow. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.com slash special offer, all lowercase. That's shopify.com slash special offer. And as like a queer person,

How did it make you feel reading that language? Yeah, I felt like that post definitely silenced queer conversations. I think it made people think that,

We can't be having these conversations and why does it matter? And sexuality should not be a topic. And I disagree. I think the way to normalize it is to have those conversations. And I also felt personally as somebody who is a reporter and a journalist and I'd like to have these conversations. It's made me second guess wanting to have them even when other people bring it up first. Because it's sensitive. It's so sensitive. And I...

I feel, I wonder too, like I know we mentioned shame, but I wonder too if there was like a feeling of fear just from your own internal, like I'll speak personally. Yeah. As someone who was coming out, there would be these high highs of feeling truly on top of the world after I would come out to someone and being like, wow, I feel so good. And then...

the next day like coming out to my dad when I fully actually came out and chose to chose I wrote him a letter and I was so excited I was like this is perfect he's going on a work trip I left the letter for him to go to the work trip I'm like this is he'll get to process all that on his own and I

And I'll never forget, he woke up in the morning. He came into my room after he read it. He laid with me in my bed and he was like, I could never love anyone more than I love you. And I could never love you any less. And I was like, this is so perfect. I feel great. And then he's like, can you drive me to the airport?

And then we had a 30 minute uncomfortable ride where I was on this high and then immediately felt like naked in front of like a crowd, that kind of vibe, you know, where you're like, when you're in the closet, you do a little bit feel like you have a protection, like a layer of protection over you. And then when you come out of it, you're like, oh my God, you can see me. And what if you don't like what you see? So as well as shame, I'm curious if there was any kind of like

That's a, it's very vulnerable and she has a huge audience. So to be vulnerable in front of a hundred million people, um,

Yeah. Versus just, you know, your dad. Yeah. I can't, I can't imagine how that must have felt. And I imagine it was maybe hard. Yeah. I have no doubt that it was difficult to be talking about your sexuality on that kind of scale. I completely understand that. I think it was the terms used that were the problematic part of it because it's okay. I think

to feel a little bit scared to talk about sexuality. But also, if you want to, it is okay. Like, I think that's a big message people should take away from, I guess, the situation. If you want to talk about it and you feel comfortable and ready, it might be a little bit scary. But if you want to, it is okay if you feel safe to do it, you know? Okay, so when everything happened, did you fear, like, that you may lose your job where people...

worried for you and your job? I feel like that's comments I saw. Yeah. And did you think that was going to happen? Were you scared or are you okay? What's going on? Yeah, a lot of people were very concerned and supportive and just...

I hope she's okay in her job. And, you know, Variety has been unequivocal in their support for me. They've been fantastic. We are, you know, a journalistic publication. So they were very much like we stand by you and we stand by our reporting in the cover story and on the carpet. So they were great. And I got a lot of really sweet messages from other journalists and reporters at our publication.

And they were like, hey, like, don't worry about it. And I think the common phrase a lot of people said to me was you did nothing wrong. And that was something important to learn for myself, too, and really hear those words and believe them. So, yeah, they've been great. Was there a moment of feeling like, did I do something wrong? It's funny because not initially. And then when I saw that post...

I really thought to myself, did I miss something? Did I misjudge the situation? But I think I had to, you know, assert to myself that no, I did nothing wrong. It's not a bad thing to talk about queer conversations when someone else especially brings it up. So yeah, there was a slight moment at the back of my head thinking that and then

Honestly, part of being a reporter and interviewing people is sometimes having difficult conversations. Yeah. Speaking of outing and what an intense word it is, it is interesting because I myself was outed. Being outed is, I mean, for some people like life or death, which is, it's just so such an intense, intense term. And I was outed when I was in high school because I fell in love with this girl. And if you've been a listener of mine for a while, you know the story, but

Her parents put a baby monitor in the room, overheard us talking, just talking. It was sweet, innocent, us talking about like having feelings for each other, whatever.

And then her parents pulled her out of the room. I sat in the room for two hours by myself wondering what they were talking about, what was going on. By hour, like, one, I'm like, oh, my gosh, they must, it has to be. They must have found out. They must know. Didn't know how they knew, but I was like, there's no way it's something else. And then her parents come back into the room. They're like, you have to leave. You're not allowed to have sleepovers anymore. Oh, my gosh.

And we're calling your parents. Oh, we also weren't even allowed to hang out at all. And they were like, and we're calling your parents. That's very traumatic. Yeah. And I'm sorry that happened. Like that is very traumatic. Yeah. It was a lot. And then I convinced them only to tell my mom. My parents were divorced at the time. So they called my mom. They told her. I come home and my mom's like, you're not gay, are you? And I was like, no. But...

I'm like, I have a boyfriend. What are you talking about? Oh, no. Yeah, just like brushed under the rug. But bringing it back to life or death and not to be so –

drama and intense but it is a serious topic the truth but I was like borderline suicidal after that happened like I had a lot of suicidal thoughts mostly much less suicidal tendencies but it was like a thought in my head it was like kind of like okay I can't if I can't figure this out that's always an option which is a terrible place to be as a person but so yeah

Then I texted this girl weeks and weeks later and essentially was like, if I'm gay, I'm going to have to kill myself, which is...

you don't need to do and that's not the answer no definitely not but her parents read her phone while she was in the shower and then called my dad so I got outed again and this time in such a way more intense way where it was like it's also just very non-consensual like everything about it oh it was horrible and that's what outing is like it's non-consensual like almost like

a secret that is being told that you have never disclosed and you're not ready. And you didn't offer any, any inkling of it. It's like nothing. Yeah. So as someone who's been outed, the word outing is very, very triggering to me. And like, it really is a life or death for some people. And depending on where you are in the world too, like it's jail or not jail for some people. Like it's very intense. Yeah.

And I think it's a word that people should be careful with using. It's irresponsible to throw the term around. So I, my heart was more so broken for the community. I am for the community, you know, like, so that's where my mind went immediately. And of course, just, you know, general safety after seeing the post, I was like, am I going to be okay? Yeah. Like, how have you felt just from

from like a social media presence vibe? What, what did you, what have you done to protect yourself in that way? I think like I had seen it pretty soon after it was posted. So I immediately limited my DMS and everything. I just, I didn't want to see anything. That's not the kind of, I'm just non-confrontational. So I just, I don't want to see anything. I don't want to read anything. I told my wife to do the same cause I'm wanting to look out for her. Um, she had seen it with me. She was with me when I saw the post and I think, yeah, it was confusion at first. I was like,

That is not what I took away from our conversation. Okay. Just processing that. And then...

It was hard because a lot of people were celebrating, like I said, the conversation before. It was so positive. It was so positive. It was really positive. I know there's been some conversation about how, I guess, potentially there were followers lost. Yeah, and also like, yeah, there was media reporting on, oh, 100,000 followers were lost. And it's kind of like, well, you weeded out homophobic people. That's a good thing. Yeah, do you want those 100,000? That's great.

100 million. What is that percentage? Yeah, I can't. I'm not doing the math. I'm not a math girl, but... I'm gay, so I'm not doing that math. But that's very, very few people. And also, like, yeah. Who cares? Yeah, truly. That was... The fact that that was, like, one of the biggest consequences...

That people were talking about at least. And obviously there will always be consequences to coming out. Yes. And there will always be consequences to owning your truth. Especially in 2023 when, yeah, some brands don't want to align with queer people. And those are not people that I want to align with.

personally. No, no. And the more people that come out, the more brands will be forced to let, yeah, let standards like that go. Yeah. That's why representation matters. Totally. You know what I mean? It's like, again, normalizing that conversation and feeling like, um, Oh, I can relate to this. And there's people normalizing it and there's brands wanting to work with queer people. And totally. Yeah. I remember I did a brand deal once with Hollister and

One of the biggest reasons I wanted to do the brand deal is because Hollister to me was like the cool girl. Like when I was in high school, that's what the cool girls wore. That's what everyone was like. So when they hit me up to do a brand deal with me, I was like, this is so sick. I would have never thought when I was 16 that a queer girl would be wearing like Hollister. Obviously it's

No, it's amazing. But it's just like the way it felt so full circle to me. Well, you are a representation for a lot of people. So, you know, you've been doing this a long time. You've been out here a long time. Yeah. Out and out.

out here. Yeah. And I think it makes a lot of people feel good about themselves to see somebody so authentically them. So yeah. Thank you, Shannon. Thank you for being you. Thank you so much. Thank you for saying that. From my vantage point, it's so clear how important representation is because of

the DMs I get and the comments I get and the way that I've been getting those comments and DMs for 10 years now. I'm get, I'm literally get messages every day about just how like seeing me, it's not even, people are excited now cause I'm talking again. Yeah. But even for the years that I kind of retracted myself a little bit from the internet, just people seeing me living a life that was full and had queer friends and queer relationships and, um,

my family in my life and just like, just literally being a person. It's painting queerness in a positive light as well. Yeah. It's just crazy that that alone, that representation alone, and I'm just me. When you're someone much bigger than me, how important that is to so many people and how many, how, what a, what an opportunity you have to

Change lives. And just show support for a community. And no one should have to feel like they are the only spokesperson for a community or they have to speak on it. It doesn't have to become your whole brand. Yeah, I know. Just mentioning your queerness or mentioning...

who you like or whatever, it doesn't mean that that needs to be all that you ever talk about. Totally. I think you bringing it up on the red carpet also was topical because you had just done that other interview. We had just talked about it. And I think two weeks prior to that interview, we just talked about it. So I thought it was...

you know, relevant. She had brought it up first. So I thought, okay, we're going there, you know? So I really didn't think that it was going to end up how it did. My intentions were only good. And as a queer reporter, I kind of feel like, you know, if someone brings up the conversation, oh, it's okay to have it, you know? I think, and you mentioned, you know, what did you do like social media wise? I kind of, you know, yes, the social media safety was one thing, but as well, I had to look within myself and just kind of

work through, am I going to be okay to have these types of conversations in the future? I'm interviewing, you know, for my job a lot and I don't want to shy away from the conversation. I'm not ashamed of those types of conversations. So I kind of feel like it is in a way my, my duty to have those conversations when it's appropriate and when they come up. It's not shameful. And it's not scandalous to talk about sexuality. Totally. Like the fact that

anything queer in some way is inherently sexual. Yes. Is so frustrating. And I know that...

it's sexuality but it's not about sex people go there immediately immediately even with like my wife if we're out together and somebody you know assumes her friends we're like no this is my wife it's like it is the classic prove it or this or I don't believe you and it's true people act this way towards like LGBTQ issues all the time yeah well because we still are like other yeah it's othered

We are othering because we're not fitting a status quo and that's because the status quo still exists. Yeah. So it's like, that's why we have to keep coming out. That's why we have to keep having these conversations. Why it's important because we're not there. And...

To diminish that and to think that that conversation is not important is, I think, kind of the saddest takeaway from this situation and just the quote in general from the caption being like, it doesn't matter. It's like, it really matters. It really matters. And the words you use matter too. And I think that's part of the biggest thing as well. I'm not mad at her. I think it's just a sad situation.

and that it turned out that way. I totally agree. It almost feels like in this scenario, we kind of took two steps forward and then, or sorry, one step forward

Two steps forward, one step back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It feels like in this scenario, we took two steps forward and one step back. Definitely. Because the reaction was so positive, everyone's so stoked, and then it's like, but we shouldn't have talked about that. Or like, but you shouldn't have brought that up. It's like, wait, I thought you were... I thought it was casual. Yeah. I thought it was chill. I thought we were chilling. It was such an innocent conversation. So, yeah, I agree. I think it was definitely a two steps forward, one step back scenario. And I think a lot of queer people felt that. So...

The ripple effect of what happens when anything queer conversation like this happens is so much bigger than you realize. That's a good point. Which I feel like maybe too is a lot of why maybe that is, maybe that impacted, I would say that it would impact someone because then you have like, you might feel responsible to a community that,

Maybe you don't, you're not ready to feel responsible for. Maybe don't say that it doesn't matter to have the conversation because for some people it matters a lot. It does. I've seen that even in my reporting. I've had a lot of queer conversations and people want to talk about it. You know, there's a lot of people that are ready to talk about it and feel comfortable

um, that they have something to say on the matter. And I think it's okay to give them that platform, which is kind of what I was trying to do of giving a platform of like, okay, like here it is to talk about it. Yeah. We can talk about it. Totally. And that's why I even had asserted that, you know, I'm gay, like you're safe kind of thing to be like,

I'm not just a straight reporter quizzing you about sexuality. Like that's not what we're doing here. So yeah. We're just trying to get like a story out of you. Kind of like we're a community. Yeah. As a queer person talking to other queer people immediately, I feel a level of comfort and openness that you don't have with every person, you know? And I think,

just if you're someone who's out and like living that way it's so hard not to feel that like when the second you start having a conversation with like I love talking to gay people yeah I would only talk to gay people yeah yeah it feels so much better and then you just feel like walls come down yeah and maybe that is also what happened because it didn't seem like a wall came down but it also feels like a wall came a little bit back up would you say do you feel because you've been a reporter for

interviewer for a while. Yeah. Yeah. Would you say you can personally feel a shift towards more open conversations like around queerness?

Yeah, I think I'm trying not to be biased because I am queer and that I feel comfortable having the conversation if someone brings it up. But I do feel it. I feel even in the last year, for a couple years as well, I've like produced our pride issue for video and I can kind of feel a shift to it being more light and fun, which is great. People want to have some fun talking about, you know, queerness. So that's been really amazing to see the change.

But still, there is always the need for that serious conversation if someone wants to come in and really talk about LGBTQ plus issues. And rights. Yeah. And rights. In 2023, this year sucked. Definitely. This year sucked for gay people. Yeah. And it is always kind of like a two steps forward, one step back with the community. You feel people being more open about it, but then you start to see...

legislation being passed or you start to feel unsafe like in your own city or country or town so yeah it kind of obviously just depends on the person it definitely depends on the person even thinking back to youtube it's

in 2010, 2011 and the videos that Google or like I remember Pixar and Google had these videos for Pride that were It Gets Better. Yeah, the sad story. And they were so intense. Yes. It's like the music in the background is like violins. Very like queer stories are sad.

And also like really trying to pull on your heartstrings. But I was just thinking about that when you said you feel like they've gotten lighter. I feel the same way. And it's way more like there's so much more silliness. There's so much more joy. It's not so much like...

I came out and I lost my whole family. It's just like, this is my husband named Bob and I love him and we're good. Like, vibes have shifted so much in such a positive way. And thankfully. It makes me so, like, hopeful for the future. And I do feel like we will eventually get to a point where it is less important to talk about in ways. But when I say, I think that'll happen in like 500 years. Yeah. Yes. We're certainly not there. I would love to not have to...

correct people when I say spouse or judge a situation. Is it safe to say wife here? I would love to get there. It's the same conversation about coming out. You know, there's also been a lot of discourse of how Gen Z is very like progressive and that's so amazing. Like they're definitely going to be a generation that also changes it. But I'm not that far off from a Gen Z and I still feel that representation

representation is important and talking about queerness is important and we can normalize that we're not saying it doesn't need to be normalized but yeah I think it's important still to have a conversation totally thinking back to when I was like 18 19 and I just don't want to sound like an old bitter lesbian you know okay because I'm 31 now I don't want to be an old bitter lesbian but it is ironic and

With Gen Z and how, how like flippant it's become in some ways. Like they're like, why do we have to come out? Everyone's gay. Everyone's a little gay. It's like,

Oh my God, I'm obsessed. I love it. I'm obsessed with them. And at the same time, I'm like, but that's not everyone. And that's not everywhere. It's a very privileged take. It is definitely a privilege. That that is everyone's reality. Yeah. Even in, even in bubbles like Los Angeles, there are still communities of people who are not as progressive and there is still fear and uncertainty and like, like,

lack of safety to come out. So I love, I love how casual Gen Z talks about things. And I think it really helps. It does help push us forward, but I think you can't,

think that way and not take into account that that's not every person's reality. Yeah. You know, until we're all equal like that and it's not an issue anywhere and it's not illegal to be gay somewhere, we can't say that. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. Like words have meaning. Yeah. Words have a lot of, yes, a lot of meaning. Yeah. As someone who was outed and then my experience with my family was

honestly amazing. But seeing it from the girl I was in love with's perspective and seeing her family's reaction while I was simultaneously having a positive reaction, her having such a negative reaction,

Even that made me scared. It pushed me further into the closet. It's the reason I went to college in Oklahoma, joined a sorority. I was like, oh my gosh, even though my family will love me, knowing that families like this exist and will hate me, I don't want to be this way. Yeah, I can't always be met with this hate. Yeah, forever. To see it firsthand, to see it, to know that her...

her dad looked at her and said, you're disgusting. That impacted me for years after. And like, obviously still, I'm still working through internalized homophobia that I had from all the way back then. Well, I think we all carry around a little bit of internalized homophobia. We all try and work at it. I know I do, but it creeps up just because that's how society is. So it's impossible to escape. I think we can work at it. I've worked really hard at not letting that affect me. But

It's embedded in society, so it's very hard to avoid. So I understand working through that still from the past. I feel like even Gen Z will see and probably does see that they will have internalized homophobia as well. Just as long as the world is heteronormative.

you're going to be processing that. Yeah. Even just, you can't escape it just from the media we consume, from what we're fed, from the love stories you get. We're like starved for queer representation. We're starved. We are celebrating any little bit of like normalization and representation that we have. So the smallest thing is important. If I see a commercial for the holidays and I can tell one of the couples is queer, I'm like tears. Yeah. I'm like,

Thank you. Yes. We needed that. We didn't have that. No. We didn't have that at all. Even when you can't exactly tell they're queer, like they could be sisters, honestly. Sometimes in like that old Navy commercial, are they sisters or are they lesbians? Yeah. I want to say lesbians. You're taking it as queer. It's queer. We're going to say representation. For me, it's queer. For someone, some grandma in Nebraska, they're sisters. But

But for me, queer. Period. Right? That's funny. But I'll take whatever I can get. And I think that's just the case for so many queer people. We will take whatever we can get. And when it goes well, it's so, so it's so nice. It's so healing. It's so healing. And that's what I thought it was. And when it goes even a little south, you're

You're like, damn, that kind of opens the floodgates for so much negativity. Yeah, and homophobia. And homophobia. And to be like, yeah, you guys are disgusting or something so silly. Like, some of the discourse and comments I was seeing, I was like, wow, we were really looking for any excuse to be homophobic as a society. Yeah. It was bad. Yeah. So before we end this episode, I want to do a couple questions.

from y'all. I asked on Instagram what you think about coming out in 2023, the importance of it. It's crazy to keep saying 2023 because it's almost 2024. I know it's about to be 2024. I feel like 2023 was like a split second. A split second. Okay. So someone said, do you think labels do more harm than good?

What do you think about that? That's such an interesting question. My wife and I talk about this a lot, actually. Again, would love to get to the point where we don't have to label ourselves. I think whatever works for you, whether you want to label or don't want to label, that's the way to go. And a lot of people find empowerment in a label. I know even for me getting to the point where I'm saying,

I'm gay is like huge. Yeah. I don't know. I think labels can change too and that's all right. I think it goes back to language being so important. And I think language within labeling in the queer community, I think brings...

people peace sometimes, but I do think it also brings people a lot of stress because they feel like they have to be in a set category. I think for me, I love label. I love the labels I've found for myself, but it took a long time to find them. Like I, I love that I'm a lesbian and yes, I also love to call myself a chapstick lesbian. I think it's fun and cute and like,

gives a category that then other people can be like, oh, I'm kind of like Shannon. So maybe I'm a chapstick lesbian. They identify with you. Yeah. But I also do think, and I, one really great positive thing about Gen Z is fluidity. Yeah. And I think we're finally getting to a point where we're able to be more fluid. I think,

A few years ago, if you were identifying as a lesbian and then woke up the next day and fell in love with a man, that would be kind of... You could get some backlash, especially from the lesbian community. Today, there's a lot more understanding that things aren't so black and white. What would you tell your younger self about coming out? Honestly, that...

it's all gonna work itself out it's all gonna be okay you're gonna marry a beautiful person inside and out and coming out will be the best thing that ever happened to you because you allowed yourself to find that person and find happiness because of that so that's what i would tell myself what about you okay tears that was true we get it you have a wife no

I just can't stop talking about her. Some of us are single out here and you're out here with a whole wife. Just me as like an ad. You too can find a wife. Where is she? Haven't found her. Okay. I think what I would tell my younger self about coming out is that you will. I think just that alone, I never believed I would. I thought I would live...

I thought I would find some boy and marry him and everything would, I would be probably not happy, but I would. Everything would be not okay. Everything would be bad, but I would be safe. And yeah, I think, yeah, if I could talk to my younger self, I'd just be like, you will do it. You will find something.

the courage and it will happen and it will be the best decision you ever made in your whole life. And now you will be a spokesperson for queer people. You will become so gay and so out. Just wait. Yeah, just wait. I really said, I'm coming out. Yeah, I actually feel that. Like, you will be gayer than you ever thought possible. Literally. And you get gayer every year. Good job, Shannon. Yeah, yeah. I'm so proud of you. You're the best, Shannon. You're the best. No, stop. And I'm so proud of you for...

talking about things that queer people want to hear about. Yeah, I hope. Yeah, it makes my queer heart happy. And I hope that we get back on a track where the conversations can stay super positive, super casual, super light. The lightness is so needed. And I think that is going to be the thing that really pushes the needle for everyone so much more is when the conversations can just be so relaxed and the language can be

only positive yes and more positive language yeah no 100% and I agree and thank you so much for being open to having the conversation and thank you for coming and talking to me yeah no it was a very vulnerable moment so yeah we love how are you feeling now better yeah no I feel good I'm you scared no I think I've I'm a pretty calm person in general so I think um

Yeah, I feel good about it. It's going to be great. I hope that the gays know that I'm for them. That's all. We are definitely for the gays. We are for the gays. And I hope people are receptive to the conversation. And I hope people know that neither of us are here to talk badly about anyone or to make light of a situation that maybe was heavy for someone. Yes, definitely. But just saying in general how important these conversations are and how stoked and amazing it is that like,

They're happening more. Yeah. Even this happening, it still opens the door for this conversation. Yeah. Which, again, if we could, as a community, if we continue to

share and bring light and talk about these things like it's just creating more representation so yeah we're taking a lemon and we're making lemonade yeah no we're definitely giving a spotlight to queer conversations and that's what's important you know that's what's so key so important please talk about queerness yes talk about it and don't feel ashamed if you want to talk about it it's okay thank you so much