Shownotes Transcript
First Person is produced in cooperation with the Far East Broadcasting Company, who rejoice in the stories of changed lives through the power of Jesus Christ. Learn more at febc.org. So I'm just thankful for God's consistency through what's been a really difficult journey and the joy that He's given me because I have so much to be thankful for. I have a wonderful family and I'm just so grateful for the love that He's got for me and so thankful too for all that He's done in my life.
He started listening to first person from his home in Australia. Now, Stuart Vogel finds himself as a guest on this program. Welcome, I'm Wayne Shepherd, and you're about to meet Stuart and hear his heart for the Lord, despite all the difficult experiences in his life.
Like today's guests, we have listeners everywhere who tune in to hear the stories of people who've overcome life's obstacles and devoted their lives to Christ and His kingdom purposes. We've told hundreds of these stories through the years, and they're all available for listening at your convenience. You'll find them archived at FirstPersonInterview.com.
Well, Stuart Bogle is an author and experienced Christian leader from Adelaide, South Australia. His book is titled Learning to Dance in the Darkness, Wrestling with God in the Darkest of Times. He's also a podcaster who likes to bring people's stories of faith to light. And on a trip through Chicago, he stopped by for a visit.
We had a great time of conversation and sharing stories, and I asked him how it was that he found this program. Well, I was starting my podcast a few months ago and then starting to look who was out there and doing the same things. And I loved your heart for telling stories, short-form stories. And I think that's what I've been doing for a long time.
and really honoring God in that process. So I reached out to you, and you responded, so here I am. And you reached out all the way from Australia. All the way from Australia. That's amazing to me. Thank you for doing that. So let's talk about your story. You are the founder of Resilient Souls, and talk about that ministry. What is that? Well, Resilient Souls is really, it came out of a term that somebody said to me one day when I was talking about my kids. We were going through a fair bit of trauma as a family, and
And they said to me, how are you doing? And I said, I'm doing fine. I'm just concerned about the kids. And this person said, don't worry about the kids. They've got muscular souls. And I loved that term, muscular souls, because it made me think about how you've got to exercise a muscle. And it began to resonate with me. So I was going to start something called Muscular Souls, and I thought it sounded a bit too much like a new age gym for guys or something. So the idea was around resilience of faith.
So I thought about that, and I thought, I'm going to start something where I don't just tell my story, but where I amplify the voices of others and hear their stories, so that
Resilience in faith is a really important thing, and when people face tough times, they often turn to God for comfort or they turn away from Him disappointed. So we want to help encourage people to build a resilience. You've written a book, which we'll mention in our program notes. Our listeners will find the link to the book there, along with your ministry, Resilient Souls. But tell me your story. Let's get into your own personal story. You've had a lot of experience, and you've
and a lot of ups and downs as well. I was saved from a non-Christian family at 18. And from that point on, I decided I was going to save the world all on my own, but it didn't quite work out that way. So the Lord was doing a work in me and preparing me for what I thought was going to be this grand future. So I had written all these plans down and was dreaming of how I could serve God and do good in this world.
And things didn't quite go to plan. And so the first thing was, as a young man with a beautiful wife and three young kids, we moved to a Bible college to help lead that ministry. And that was very exciting. Until the moment my wife walked through the door and I saw a look on her face that told me our world was going to change forever. She'd been battling with a lump in her breast with our little baby. But the doctor had just simply said it was a blocked milk duct and that would clear and she'd be fine. And so we went back twice.
kept being told it was nothing. And the third time, it turned out to be late-stage metastatic breast cancer. And so we had the battle for the next few years. And we prayed, we assembled a vast army of people, and we trusted that God could do this, could step in, could fix her, and everything would be okay. And we'd return to those dreams and that future we'd been planning. But it didn't work out that way. And so she passed away, and I was left on my own with three kids.
And then that was the beginning of a number of very difficult challenges. I can only imagine for many people that would set them back on their heels. And some don't recover faith-wise from an experience like that. How do you account for how the Lord...
And you stayed together during this time. Well, I often ask people I'm interviewing on the podcast, how do they keep their eyes on God? I said, is it personality? Is it theology? Is it experience? What is it? And it's often a combination for people. And for me, it was pretty straightforward. At 18, I'd made a decision to give my life to Jesus and said, do with it what you want. Now, I didn't suspect that he was going to allow certain things to happen to me, but I'd made a commitment to him. And I was going to trust him no matter what.
So I kept turning to him and then hoping for the blue skies to come out and everything to work out, but they didn't. But we'd sort of, so it sort of became a habit that I was going to follow him and trust him no matter what came. But there was a lot of no matter what's in the next few years. Mm-hmm.
So what happened after your wife's passing? You left with three children, and I'm sure you felt a bit lost, right? You had to. I did. I had to step down from my role as a school principal. I'd already come back from the Bible college because that needed to be with family and closer to hospitals.
So I was a bit lost, and I spent a lot of time looking after my kids, helping them navigate their own grief journey. And then I'd find myself at nighttime under the stars by myself and saying, well, what's next, Lord? And that wasn't so clear. But yeah, it was a very tricky journey to know because a lot of, I believe, a lot of guys particularly have their identity in who they are and in their work that they're doing and their leadership roles. And when those things are stripped...
it's very difficult to work out what your identity is all about. And that's what I had to wrestle with God is, who am I?
What are your plans for me, and how do I accept that this is a different path that I'm on? Did someone come along to help you, a mentor, a spiritual advisor, anyone? I had some great people in my life. I think I was a bit proud, though. I thought I'd sort this out on my own a lot of the time. So as much as I wanted and I needed help, I tried to sort a lot of this out on my own. But there were people that would sit with me and guide me. But mostly the people who helped me just were the ones that sat and listened and didn't try to tell me what God was doing or why he was doing it. Mm-hmm.
What part did God's Word play in your life at this point? Well, I was a preacher already and a speaker at a Bible school. And so I'd learned to study God's Word so I could teach others. And here I was no longer doing any teaching and no longer doing any preaching. And so I was starting to have to work out what does it mean for me? That's a bit embarrassing to say that because you think that's actually core. But sometimes we are the voice, the mouthpiece for God, but we don't sit at His feet enough. So I was sitting at His feet.
and I was opening his word, and I was starting to wrestle with those scriptures. In fact, that's where the book came from, is somebody had written to me and said, just heard about your wife being diagnosed, and you just preached at our church. They said it was a really good sermon, but it's going to be interesting to see whether you can live that out. Now, it sounds a bit harsh, but it actually was instrumental in me looking up every scripture in the Bible about rejoicing in the Lord and joy and seeing what that meant, because
In my mind, it couldn't be happiness because I wasn't happy at all. We were deeply sad at the loss and the subsequent traumas that we went through. So it had to be something more. So I studied the scriptures and I came away with a deep conviction that rejoicing in joy is a deep inner disposition of the soul and it's not dependent on circumstances as happiness is. And so God's word's always been important to me. It became precious to me after that. Okay.
Again, I can only imagine the depth of the really kind of despair for you of losing your wife like that and being left with those children to care for.
And I'm glad to know that, you know, you talked about the plans that you made. I think of Proverbs 16, 9 that says, a man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps. I mean, you're the living embodiment of that, aren't you? Well, I was really fortunate. I had Stuart Briscoe in my life. Oh, really? An amazing leader and friend. And as a young leader, he spent some time with me and really invested in me. One of the things he said, which I'll never forget, he said, it's good to make plans, but make sure you write them in pencil. Okay.
And that's true. I think that so many times we've got plans, and when those plans get thwarted, that can lead to great disappointment and discouragement in our faith, in our trust of God. But actually recognizing that God is going to direct our paths, that's the important thing, and to trust Him for that. Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned Stuart because we need people like that in our life, don't we? Mm-hmm.
Somebody who's been there, who can guide us, who can be a spiritual mentor. That's absolutely critical because one of the things I'm discovering, not only through my own experience but now the experience of others,
is people do isolate themselves when they, particularly leaders, can isolate themselves because they don't want to admit what they're going through. But we need to open ourselves up and we need to find people that are trusted people that we can sit with and we can do life with and we can walk the valley together with. Sometimes I think people come along and they want to give advice and they want to fix things. And that can be the most difficult thing of all because you can't fix a lot of these things. Yeah.
Yeah, and we want instant solutions. What you've just described to me, I'm sure didn't happen overnight, did it? No, it didn't. It took many years with my wife, with her illness, and that hope deferred makes the heart sick. You know that scripture? We had many hopes deferred. And so when she passed away, it was reimagining life and a future.
And then, as I explained before, there's been so many things that happened after that. There was another relationship breakdown when I remarried and had all these hopes and plans, but very serious emotional health issues put that at risk.
I had my son, he was arrested for a bushfire that he accidentally lit when he was trying to romance his girlfriend on Valentine's Day. And they just changed the laws which said, you start a bushfire, you're going to jail. So we spent a year facing that prospect until the judge wrote this off and said, this is not what the law was for and released him. Another trial in your life. Another trial. Then I was going through some more things and was diagnosed myself with cancer.
And so I had that battle with cancer and then had the surgery and they said, we've got it. It's all clear. And a few months later, I went back for a checkup and they said, we were wrong. It's spread. And now we've got a life threatening situation.
I had a bike accident where I was riding my bicycle one day and I was just out enjoying this beautiful sunny day and a lady came out of nowhere and hit me and drove me headfirst into a tree. And then a year later, my head was still not recovered and the specialist told me I needed to take a whole month out. He said, don't do anything. Don't just relax. Well, the last day of that month, I went back to see him quite distressed saying I'm not better. And he said, it'll be fine. He
He said, it just means that you've got a permanent injury. You just need to change your lifestyle and de-stress. And the next day, there was an electrical fault in the ceiling and the house burnt down. And as I stood there, surrounded by a house that had burnt down, kids that were distressed, I went, you've got to be kidding. It was just pretty relentless. And that's where I learned that phrase, the title of the book.
learning to dance in the darkness. We're meeting a new friend today from Australia, Stuart Bogle, and we'll continue the conversation coming up on First Person. Here's Ed Cannon on the Vision for FEBC's weekly podcast. The primary purpose of Until All Have Heard, of course, is to share the experience that FEBC has because we have staff on the ground in so many oppressive places. But in addition to that, we're trying to speak to you in a way that
only the kind of testimonies you'll hear from around the globe can do. Discover how the gospel is making a difference around the world. Search for Until All Have Heard on your favorite podcast platform or hear it online at febc.org.
My guest is Stuart Vogel. Stuart is from Australia, as you might suspect, listening to his wonderful accent. And he's also an author. He's a podcast host. His organization is called Resilient Souls. The title of the book is? Learning to Dance in the Darkness. Learning to Dance in the Darkness. And we'll put a link to Stuart's book in our program notes at FirstPersonInterview.com. Take me back to the accident, the breakdown.
the brain injury, this was another setback for you. It's a huge setback, yes. Yes, spiritually, what was going on at that particular time?
Well, this is going to sound like I'm being a little bit triumphal or proud, but I'd had so many things happen that I'd made it the habit of just continuing to turn to God, not blame Him, not question Him all the time, but just turn to Him. And so this was a big setback. This was very difficult because it changed my capacity, and that's ongoing. And so that's been a challenge. I've just
I've just learned not to blame God. It doesn't get me anywhere. God's fine with me wrestling with him. In fact, that's the subtitle of the book, Wrestling with God in the Darkest of Times. I think it's very important that we learn to wrestle with God and say, I don't know what you're doing, God. I'm struggling with this. And that was particularly hard because it was weeks and then months of just not feeling myself and really battling. And everybody could see I was fine on the outside, but it was the brain stuff that was going, the brain fog, the fatigue,
the nausea and that's been a big challenge so and that's ongoing isn't it that's ongoing and if I find myself stressed or pushing too hard those symptoms come back and so I really only work part time at the moment which is hard when you've got a full time brain wanting to go hard but I've had to adjust and that's just been a thing of saying Lord I'm not sure what you're doing or why you're allowing these things
But I'm going to trust you and keep walking with you, so show me what's next. And this has been a wonderful season this last year, doing the podcast and meeting incredible people and helping to amplify their stories and learning from them as well. I just love the lessons we can learn from others. Yeah, let me pursue that for a moment because what you've been through makes you tenderhearted towards people who are going through this.
so many different difficulties in life and I like the name of the organization, Resilient Souls. I like that a lot. What were you going to call it at first? Muscular Souls. Muscular Souls. Yeah, I agree that you made the right choice there.
but you love to facilitate other people telling their stories of faith in tough times. Well, I think that's what drew me to you, is that curiosity about other people's stories. And so I thought, well, my book is one thing, but it's my perspective, my theology, my personality, and it may help some people, but I want to help a lot of people. So I began to reach out to people I knew, and then others began to recommend people to say, this person's got a story that's worth telling.
And so I interview, I ask stories, I'm curious. I find myself sometimes in the middle of an interview and I've moved from being the host to just being a curious person wanting to know more about them. But they've been so gracious and so generous with their stories. It's been very, very special. And I keep asking them, I said, how did you keep your eyes on God? How did you not turn away? Have you got any tips for people? What helped? What didn't help? It's been an incredible journey. Yeah.
Of course, your podcast is available online for anyone wherever they live in the world, and we'll put a link to that. But talk to me about one of your favorite interviews of late and what you've learned from it. Well, I interviewed a guy actually from here in the States, from California, and he was an amazing guy, pastor, preacher, had a child. And I just heard about him from another guest who'd reached out and said, look, you should interview this guy. So he agreed to come on. And he was remarkable in the story that he told of how he had experienced
being diagnosed with this life-threatening illness. And he was doing everything right, married with a child, preaching, leading, and he just decided he was not going to turn away from God, but he was going to do something very different. So he felt very called to respond to his illness by taking on a monumental task. He became an Iron Man.
And he'd never done it before. He decided to train for it. And it seems really strange, but when I asked him why he did that... You say he became an iron man. So this is a physical... Oh, a physical challenge. Someone undergoing life-threatening illness and chemo, and he decides to run...
miles and miles, swim miles and miles, cycle miles and miles in something that would just be such a challenge for anyone. Which is something you probably identify with as well, given your background, biking and all that sort of thing. Yes, I was so impressed by him. But when I asked him why, he said, because I have a four-year-old
And, you know, unless God does a miracle, she's going to go through some very difficult things in life. And I wanted to show her that when you face difficult things, you can overcome. So when I crossed the finish line, I dropped to my knees, put my arms on her shoulders, and I said, sweetie, you're going to face some very difficult times, but I want you to remember what your dad's done today. And that's just so inspiring. He could have just turned to alcohol or anger or bitterness. He could have blamed God and raged at the world, but he didn't.
And he wants to leave a legacy for his daughter, and he wants to leave a legacy for the world. Now, we're praying for healing, of course, and we know God can heal. God just doesn't always do the things that we want him to do, but he's always present. Yeah. It's therapeutic, isn't it, to share these stories with each other?
And to learn from others. I'm sure it helps you a great deal. Well, it does. Actually, one, getting out and sharing stories and not putting behind closed doors, but two, actually meeting the society of the secret society of the hurting. And it shouldn't be a secret society, but there is so much collective wisdom that can be gained by conversations and openness and vulnerability, but
But the goal is not just to have a community that share their stories. It's actually how do we help people to walk through their story, to keep their eyes on God, to not turn away, not lose their faith or themselves. And so that's what we're trying to do is to not just find that therapeutic value in sharing our stories, but actually helping others so they can continue and navigate the storms that they're in. Yeah, I'm so glad you're doing what you're doing. There's room for us and a whole lot more people to tell these stories, isn't there? There is. I think there's so much out there.
One of the things I'm confident about is when I speak. This is not something I have to convince people is important. Everybody is going through a storm, has been through a storm, or knows someone going through a storm, and they know what I'm talking about. And so this is a very common experience, but it's some collective wisdom to try to say, how do we get through and how do we keep trusting God? Even the most successful, outwardly successful people that we meet say,
There's something underneath. There's something secret. There's something on the inside that really is a struggle for them. True. I'm sure it's the same for you, but people say to me, where do you get your guests from? Where do you find them? I said, I could go to any coffee shop in any part of the world, give me five minutes chatting to someone. Beneath the surface is a story that needs to be told.
There's things that are hurting them. There's things that are confusing them. There's things that are breaking down in their lives and they need to know they're not alone and that there is a way through. And that's what we want to do is to make sure that people know that they're not alone because too many people do. And as I said earlier, they isolate, they don't want to be open and vulnerable. And that creates a whole lot of issues for them if they don't find a safe place to open and share. And we provide some of that through the podcast. Yeah.
I understand you're working on another book as well, aimed at parenting. Yes, it is. Okay. Talk about that. Very excited about that. I realize that many of my interviews is talking about parents and their struggle with their kids. How do you help your kids navigate the darkest of times too? Because when trauma strikes or loss strikes, it has a ripple effect on many people around you. And primarily I'm interested in the impact on children.
So I've always had a heart for children and a heart for parents, but I was praying about this recently and something came to me about, I've had this privileged position of experiencing parenting from many different perspectives.
I was a school teacher that looked at parents and thought, before I had kids, I looked at them and thought, this can't be that hard, guys. Come on. And then I had kids and I went, it is that hard. And then I looked at single parents or parents that had marriages that had broken up and I'd say, the kids would turn up late or they'd forget things or one of the parents would forget to pick them up afterwards. And I'd go, come on, guys. You've got to do better than that. It can't be that hard. Then I became a single parent and my empathy grew. So I went through so many different stages of
that I decided to write something I'm going to call Parenting from All the Angles. I'm going to cross out the word all and write most of because I don't obviously pretend to understand it all. But Supporting Parents in Navigating Life is
navigating their children in many stages and stages they may not expect to be in with so many marriages breaking down so many mental health issues so many people struggling often parents are finding themselves in situations where they go this wasn't part of the plan and I don't know what to do so I really want to draw on the collective wisdom of many of the guests many of my years of experience as a parent but also observing others when I was a teacher and
to put that together in what I hope will be a really practical book for people. Well, keep us posted about that, would you please? Will do. Given all that you've been through, and all the trials, all the physical injuries, the emotional ups and downs that you've had in life, can you give thanks to God for all of it? Absolutely. Why? How? Well, because God has been present with me through it all. He's done amazing things. He's provided in incredible ways for
But I also am really grateful for the fact that he's not a fairy tale God, that I just go, if you do this, then I'll be really happy and support you and love you and follow you. He's been faithful throughout, but God never said to me that he was going to make it all work out, that if I just faithfully supported him, faithfully served him, then he would just give me riches and wealth.
great health and wellbeing. So I'm just thankful for God's consistency through what's been a really difficult journey and the joy that he's given me because I have so much to be thankful for. I have a wonderful family and,
I'm so glad that Stuart Bogle came to the studio on his brief visit to Chicago from Australia
If you'd like additional information about him and the book he's written titled Learning to Dance in the Darkness, Wrestling with God in the Darkest of Times, please visit FirstPersonInterview.com where you'll find helpful links. You'll also find his podcast with the links found at FirstPersonInterview.com.
I'm grateful for the support of the Far East Broadcasting Company in bringing these weekly interviews to you. FEBC's broadcasts are reaching a far-flung audience of people, many of whom are hearing God's love and offer of salvation for the first time. Others have been equipped with God's Word through radio, along with Internet apps and social media channels. Find out more about this incredibly effective ministry when you visit febc.org. And listen for the podcast until all have heard.
Now, with thanks to my friend and producer, Joe Carlson, I'm Wayne Shepherd. Thanks for listening to First Person.