Dingbats with Chainsaws (with Amy Walter)
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Hey, pull up a chair. It's Hacks on Tap with David Axelrod, Robert Gibbs, and Mike Murphy. My name is Katie Britt, and I have the honor of serving the great people of Alabama. But tonight, I'll be auditioning for the part of Scary Mom. And I'll be performing an original monologue called This Country is Hell.

You see, I'm not just a senator. I'm a wife, a mother, and the craziest bitch in the Target parking lot. So there you have it, Mike Murphy, the great Scarlett Johansson, by the way, an alum of Junior High School 104, where I also attended several centuries earlier in New York City, sending up...

Katie Britt, why does anybody, Mike, do these? I know it's the worst gig in politics. Marco Rubio, I think, sent Senator Britt a water bottle, too, so to pass the Scarlet water bottle. I worked on one of them for Christine Todd Whitman, and she did okay. We didn't do a lot of acting, but...

like Senator Britt did, but it's a no-win deal. Yeah, she was. Now we have with us the great, the immortal Amy Walter. Immortal. Yeah, and she's going to do a little acting for us here. Yes, immortal. She was on the VP list, Amy. Yeah, I'm sure she still is on the VP list. That was a Trump...

message, the performance, obviously not well received, but the messaging was pretty much what you would hear from Donald Trump, right? The border is a mess. You're not safe. Women shouldn't be worried. Trump said something similar the next day, right? Something about in his rally about women who are

In their homes are going to be attacked by. In their kitchens where they like to be. You say she was delivering Trump's message. There's no doubt she was delivering Trump's message. But he's like a casting director. Yes, yes.

Yeah, Christine Noem right now is getting her witchcraft book out to put a curse on Katie because there's a new brunette in town. The whole thing, you know the sad part? She used to be chief of staff to Dick Shelby, who was a big player in the Senate, old cigar and martini Paul.

And somehow she's gone to the Trump Lombotomy Academy and turned into this. Because people who know her knew her in politics, she's not an idiot. Yet now she plays one on TV. Maybe she thought that's what it takes to get in the mix with him. But I would think the reaction to it probably is problematical for her. Oh, yeah.

This is the big story today. And Murphy, you said when we were texting earlier that it's a big Washington nothing burger. And I think you may be right. But is this her hearing? Amy, have you been monitoring this? Robert Herr, the special counsel who who said this.

Biden was too much of an old doddering man to prosecute. You've been following the hearing today? I have not been watching the hearing today, but I had many other things on my plate, but I did check in on the— You had some paint to dry. You had to keep an eye on it. Yeah, exactly. I have this other job that I have, but—

It seems to me... Which is, by the way, is publisher of the Cook Report with Amy Walter. Yes. We should have mentioned at the beginning. If we planned this stuff out, we would have mentioned this at the beginning, but that's not how we roll here. The dispensable Cook Report. But yes, this is the big story today, that now we have the transcript of what was paraphrased and then kind of re-paraphrased as Biden having mental competency stumbles. And you actually read the transcript, which I've read about half of and I fell asleep.

Not so bad. It's 125 pages. I doubt that anybody else will read it. But isn't this the issue, though, you guys, is any day that we are talking about Joe Biden and Joe Biden's deficiencies, whether it is his age, whether it is the crisis on the border, whether it is a spike in inflation, it's another day that the Biden campaign isn't talking about Donald Trump and Donald Trump's not in the spotlight. And that to me,

All of these things are not helpful if you're the Biden campaign. It can't be about him. I couldn't agree with you more that he needs this thing to be hard on Trump. And we'll get to that in a second, because that was obviously on his mind when he gave the State of the Union speech and everything he's done after. But watching that hearing, half of it was about that and half of it was about Trump and why his thing was different and Democrats...

wailing on that indictment and reminding people of all the stuff that he did. So my feeling at the end of it is that everybody will end up who listens and people who listen are probably not the average voter and certainly not the swing voter, but they'll end up hearing what they want to hear and getting the social media clips that they want to get.

And for that reason, I agree with Brother Murphy, big Washington nothing burger. Well, it's guys in suits yelling at each other when all the minds are made up. I mean, if you were fair-minded and looking at the facts, which...

is a very small fraction of the electorate these days. The transcript's kind of good for Biden. But I think, you know, it'll be just lost in the morass. I think the State of the Union, though... You're in Hollywood. Why don't you make a whole film out of the transcript? Yeah, that'll be a big winner. Yeah, it'll make Oppenheimer seem fast. I saw you grumbling about the Academy Awards. You could be up there on the platform next year. You set me up. Why can't they get In Memoriam right?

They literally had like the ice capades going on in the foreground. We want to see and respect the people who've passed for their contribution. I want to see Alan Arkin. I don't want to see somebody in a purple suit in the foreground with 300 dancers. They ruined it. Not for the first time. How hard is it? And another thing. There you go. That's my rant. The older you get, the more you pay attention to In Memoriam. And I can't help but draw the connection here. I love In Memoriam because I'm a nut for...

actors and Hollywood people, but I couldn't see it. Did you say it? Was it the Grammys? The Grammys did it super well. They did it really well. AMC did it okay. I tweeted that at at Murphy Mike, so you can see what a good one looks like. Oh, wait a second. This is hacks on tap. I forgot.

We better get back to what's going on in politics. Politics, politics, where the real acting is. Amy's like, what the hell am I doing here? I don't remember that part of the intro. But let's get to the State of the Union. Speaking of acting, because I want to give Biden some props. I mean, on one hand,

It was horrible that the State of the Union had now become, he's doing a union hall speech. We got bozos like, you know, throwing spit. I mean, it just was disgusting if you step back and think about what it ought to be. But Biden didn't create that world. Trump did. And Biden's caught in it. And he decided, all right, time to engage. And he did what I think we've been talking about here for a long time. I'm going to give him props. Biden was Biden.

And he engaged and he slapped back a little bit and he was on offense. And I think he dramatically exceeded expectations.

So I'm going to give him a good grade. He's finally listening to the podcast. We keep urging him. Amy, you know, to me, I don't know. You know, none of these State of the Union speeches have like lasting impact and they and they often don't have any impact on the overall numbers. But the one thing that Biden managed to do was quiet the panic, quiet.

quell the pack as witnessed by the fact that our friend Ezra Klein, who was calling for an open convention a week ago, wrote a tribute to Biden on Sunday. So after the State of the Union speech or mostly a tribute. But it's it's active. You know who it was as much aimed as the Ezra at the Ezra Klein's of the world as the

The county, the Dem County. Right. Blah, blah, blah. County. Right. Yes. Yes. Every day gets asked by his friends and family. What's going on with that Biden? Isn't he too old? Is Trump going to win? And then he says, hey, look at this.

But then this guy is fighting. He's going to fight back. So that's, I think, the donor class, obviously the elite class, yes, but also that rank and file local elected who has to get out there and stump for him. And that's step one to turning it around. They need something to grab onto. You know, I've joked a lot about Biden performance anxiety, which is he performs and everybody who's rooting for him gets anxious.

But in this case, one thing he certainly didn't have is performance anxiety. He is. And this is something people miss about this. There isn't a place in the world where Joe Biden isn't more comfortable than in that building where he spent 36 years jousting with Republicans on the Senate floor. So, you know, he is comfortable there. The second thing that I think goes unnoticed.

remarked on or went on to remark that and maybe this just happened and it wasn't planned. But if it was planned, it was genius. You know, one of the problems for Biden is that he just he has spinal issues. And so he walks in a very stiff gait that makes him look older. He came into the he had the longest entry in the history of any

State of the Union speech, but no one saw him walking. You didn't see him walking in. You didn't see him walking out because he was stopping and talking to people along the way. Now, maybe that was just by accident, but it underscored something, which is you don't show him walking. It really helps. Yeah, no, totally. Yeah, yeah, I agree. I wish they did that on the border, put him in a Jeep or something, or in that horrible walk. I was only disappointed on the walk-in incident.

when Marjorie Taylor Greene lunged at him, and I was hoping she'd get tasered. That would have made my night. I don't know where the Secret Service was. More likely that she was carrying a taser than anybody else. You guys saw, too. I'm sure, David, you were on set and watching the feed, but they basically...

turned the lights out and he was still there. No, there was a guy turning the chairs upside down, sweeping up the floor and he was still there. Yeah, he wouldn't leave. They're looking at their watches. They finally said, sir, we really need to close. Well, he felt like, you know, it's all about squelching the internal trouble. And so he

I think he felt like he had some lucky moments there. And I will give him one to merit. I think he also likes it, Mike. I think he actually enjoys that. He is a garrulous old pal. He loves schmoozing with people. And it feels authentic and that helps him. And even though he's the malaprop king, I mean, Norm Crosby could take lessons from him on the mispronunciation. You could tell the brain was working just fine.

But I'm going to give them a demerit, and I think you're going to agree. Well, don't put me in a corner here. I'm not agreeing to anything up front, okay? All right, all right. Yeah, watch this. I'm Treskin here. He's now going to agree. Watch this. They made the mistake they keep making. They went to the economy. I know where you're going. Now I'm Treskin. Listen, America, you're wrong. I'm right. The economy's great. Got it?

That's the way it is. Malarkey. And they overplay that hand and it's like, it's bad, bad, bad. And they did it again. Let's play the new ad that they put out, which I thought was generally good, but we can, we can, we can continue this discussion after the ad. Look, I'm not a young guy.

That's no secret. But here's the deal. I understand how to get things done for the American people. I led the country through the COVID crisis. Today, we have the strongest economy in the world. I passed a law that lowers prescription drug prices. Caps insulin are $35 a month for seniors.

For four years, Donald Trump tried to pass an infrastructure law, and he failed. I got it done. Now we're rebuilding America. I passed the biggest law in history to combat climate change because our future depends on it. Donald Trump took away the freedom of women to choose. I'm determined to make Roe v. Wade the law of the land again.

Donald Trump believes the job of the president is to take care of Donald Trump. I believe the job of the president is to fight for you, the American people. And that's what I'm doing. I'm Joe Biden, and I approve this message. Can we do one more take? Look, I'm very young, energetic, and handsome. What the hell am I doing this for?

Not bad. All over the place, all the usual things, but not bad. First of all, they acknowledge the age as an issue, and I think they did it well. I agree with you completely, and Amy, I'm interested in your cut on this. I've said, how many times have we said, you can't jawbone people into feeling what they don't feel. This may well be the best economy in the world if you look at the statistics, but

because the whole world's dealt with inflation and we're making a soft landing and all of that stuff after the pandemic. But people are very, very...

very much impacted by prices and costs. Yeah. And it doesn't matter that they have. Right. And so the normal metrics that we use, job creation, GDP, those sorts of things sound great in economic terms, but if you're bringing in more money and not able to spend it on the stuff you want to spend it on, because you,

Your rent costs more than it did two years ago. Or your groceries. And your groceries cost too much. The grocery line, same stuff, more dough. It's the same idea of, you know, look,

And this is where I think the very big challenge going forward for the Biden campaign is, to your point, you can't convince people of something that they don't feel. And that infrastructure and green, whatever the green climate stuff that was in the Inflation Reduction Act, that's just...

not impacting people's lives in the same way that inflation is. To me, the most important line he had was the one at the end, where I think that we'll hear that all the time. He's fighting for himself. I'm fighting for you. That was the key line. We've been talking about that here, motive. I was very happy to hear it. Yes. Yeah. The best ads are the ones that people look at and say, yeah, well, that's true.

And I think that's what people believe. That's what they're troubling. I mean, we've said, Amy, for a long time here that Biden, you know, both these guys are old. They don't have much of a future, either of them.

But the question is, who's fighting for your future and who's fighting for himself? And that, I think, is an equation that Biden can win. I agree with both you guys. The strongest part of the State of the Union and the one that I am certain resonated most with people who are watching were the sort of cost of living problems.

populist economic dimensions of that speech, fighting for lower drug costs, fighting for, you know, to deal with high housing costs, which is the other big, big issue that people are dealing with. But it will be more effective if he acknowledges the journey that we've been on. And this is a lingering problem that we have to conquer. And by the way, inflation went up today.

So it doesn't look like it's sort of... First of all, it's a mistake to just assume that where it is today is the whole story because it's cumulative and people are dealing... It's where it lands in October in perception, what they're feeling. But also, they're dealing with the accumulation of inflation over several years, so prices are much higher than they were a few years ago. Right, right, right. They can't let them do that. I wanted them to merge the two, which was...

We were making progress, but we got a lot more work to do. We've done the hard work coming out of it. The question is, who do you want doing the work? Me on your side or Trump on Trump's side? You know, it's it's it's interesting because I was talking with somebody who's doing a lot of work with Latino voters. And this was on the progressive side and said, you know, what we're hearing now is.

is these voters, especially women, who are saying, look, I still think Republicans are the party of the rich. I still think that Joe Biden cares more about me, but Trump can deliver. And to me, it's kind of looking at that idea of he's looking out for himself, I'm looking out for you. The voters already actually have baked that in, right? Yeah, he's looking out for himself, but

Somehow it could work for me. Yeah. And that's what you have to peel off. That's why the comparative is really important. Going after Trump on these things is really important. You know, it has to be done right because people actually give Trump a lot more props than

I mean, it's incredible because when you, you know, the guy left the country in shambles, but people sort of give him a pass, I guess, because of the pandemic. Well, they remember a better economy. You know, it's pretty simple to them. How was I doing? I was doing better. That's why even though they don't like Trump, he beats Biden on running the economy by 10, 15 points. But let me ask you. But the reality is they weren't, except for inflation, which is a big issue.

Right. They really weren't doing better. But anyway, go ahead. Then you're back to telling them you're wrong, you know, which is losing. But weren't they also getting they're getting a lot of stimulus checks.

in 2020 and early 2021. There was money coming into people's bank accounts. So that's the other thing that's different on top of the inflation. Riddle me this, wise guests here and Brother Axelrod. They got a pretty good reset in the State of the Union. They squelched the panic on their side. They show Biden vigorous and on the offense and comfortable.

Why the stupid budget with the tax increases? Because in the new world, it is the suburban high-earning people who have become Democrats and the white working-class people who become Trump Republicans. So why are they – if you make $400,000 a year, which I know sounds like a lot of money, but you're in the suburbs of a major city, you're leading Biden.

And wham, now you get a tax increase. I don't know why he gives that hammer to the rip-ups. I don't get this budget. I will tell you that they've been working on this speech since November. And I think that they have tested every aspect of this. And the feeling that wealthy Americans...

And corporations get away with too much and got away with too much under Trump. That tax cut of Trump's is the most potent argument against him, the most potent argument. And so, I mean, I think they're playing to that.

It bleeds into this cost of living argument. And I think that they're going to get those. I think they feel they're going to get those voters you're talking about on a number of other grounds. Yeah. Like, look at all these suburban folks have been willing to shoulder the

progressive policies on spending for a long time now, spending in taxes for a long time, whether you're in suburban Chicago or suburban Philly or you're in suburban D.C. So I don't know that it has the same

sort of impact than it once did. And, you know, I mean, for the last how many years has it been that Democrats have been calling for tax increases on the wealthiest and the wealthiest counties in America keep voting for Democrats? Yeah, no, that is true. But I don't know. I smell a mistake. I just say it.

You're going back to that old Republican Party mindset again. You don't get Republicans in the suburb by starting tax increase wars. We got them, brother. They're becoming Democrats and independents. Yeah, because of Trump. I don't know. I think it's a mistake. I'll just say it. I disagree. We'll see. The other thing that I think was missing a little from the State of the Union, missing from that spot, I keep feeling, I think I've said it here before,

He is most effective when he is Joe from Scranton, not Joe from Washington. And I think a little bit more of a sense of connection with people, like if he had described what people have gone through to what we've gone through together in the last year and when he and talk about how people back in where he's from are dealing with the things they're dealing with. I mean, so this is a big conflict for Biden. This is the sort of psychological conflict for him.

because he desperately wants a credit. He thinks he deserves it. He thinks he's earned it. He thinks he's done a good job. I don't disagree with him, but the fact is it is what it is. It is what it is. And when you try and grasp for credit, it can really diminish your argument. Right, and somebody's got to straighten them out because they've been trying this horse shit for nine months. Well, at least they removed the word Bidenomics. Right.

Well, yeah, that's their big finish in October and bring it back. Okay, then let's take a break right here and we'll be right back.

But I agree with Amy. I thought the whole end of the speech was very strong. And I didn't pull clips because everybody, we're days after the thing now. But I thought that his close of that spot and the close of the speech was strong in which he talked about fighting for their future and not fighting and not, you know, Trump fighting for himself.

Um, and I think that's a meta theme, uh, that they, that they need to, uh, that they need to develop. They're also, you know, they sent him out on the road. I want to talk about sort of, uh, the techniques of using him moving forward. They sent him out on the road as they should after the state of the union, they released a budget that amplified a lot of the themes, uh,

of the speech. These speeches that he's making are like 20 minutes long. Uh, you know, he's not doing multiple events a day. Someone reminded me that when, uh,

In 2000, George W. Bush, and you'll remember this, Mike, because you were involved in that campaign. You know, they didn't do a whole lot of events. And they went out and he had a stump speech. And then he'd do a little insert to create news. And it worked for him. You don't have to kill the candidate road with multiple speeches. You just increase your odds of trouble. Yes. Just feed the news cycle pictures and a message. And in this case, look, he is old.

And he's going to make more mistakes if you overdo trying to prove that he can do it.

Just go out there. And the big bear trap is out there waiting for a mistake. Aha! You can't remember what day it is. Yeah, by the way, we should just play. This is the ad that the Trump campaign. Yeah, this is the video was Biden falling down the stairs to Air Force One. And the end is when you hear a cackling, that's the vice president. So let's listen to that. It was a stage villain in the ad. Whatever the hell they want. I am a hero.

I guess I should clear my mind here a little bit. We can all see Joe Biden's weakness. If Biden wins, can he even survive till 2029? The real question is, can we make America Great Again Inc. as responsible for the content of this advertising?

So subtle. It's subtle. Yeah, it's not as subtle as Trump's hairstyle. But I'll tell you, don't think of an elephant. You see Biden stumbling and appearing to be lost cognitively at the beginning, and then you see him fall down the stairs. It'll have an impact. It's grim stuff. The question is, it aired before and after the State of the Union did the State of the Union help in that regard? And if they use him properly, can he...

give people a level of confidence that makes... Right. That's the billion-dollar question. What do you think, Amy? I mean, do you think more of the Biden we saw in the State of the Union can counteract the greatest hits you're seeing paid advertising of bad Biden moments? My inclination is it will. But what do you think? Maybe. I don't know. I mean, I think...

What counters it is this idea of weakness versus strength is the message that you're going to hear throughout. That's the core of the Republican message.

And nothing is really making that much sense. Nobody seems to be listening to Biden. And more importantly, he hasn't had a win in a long time. Right. I mean, he's talking about infrastructure, rebuilding cities, climate change. All of this happened in his first year in office, first year and a half in office or even COVID. Right.

versus here's what I've been able to do today or the idea of being able to show that strength. It doesn't have to be that I can sprint up the stairs or play around a golf. The strength is, and I think that's the message, is the strength of my conviction, the strength that I will be working on

what I can do for you versus the strength of doing something mostly for yourself and your donors. I agree with almost everything you said there. I mean, the Republican message is the world's out of control. Biden's not in command. And, you know, I do, and I've said it before, you know, I'm mindful of Bill Clinton's old strong and wrong beats weak and right. And so you have to, you have to be, you have to, you know, pass the bar and,

On strength, you don't want to necessarily make that the decision-making point, but you have to pass the bar on it. And, you know, making your fight, their fight, your fight, and their fight is largely economic right now, is, I think, is his mission. And, by the way, it also means going after Trump relentlessly.

and not playing off defense, but playing offense. They did jump. Trump did an interview with CNBC yesterday, and the Biden campaign was pretty quick to jump on it on this particular comment. Have you changed your outlook on how to handle entitlement, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid? Mr. President, it seems like something has to be done or else we're going to be stuck at 120 percent of debt to GDP forever.

So, first of all, there is a lot you can do in terms of entitlements, in terms of cutting, and in terms of also the theft and the bad management of entitlements. Tremendous bad management of entitlements. There's tremendous amounts of things and numbers of things you can do. So, I don't necessarily agree with the statement. Tremendous. They went after him right away. They went up with digital ads.

And this is what they have to do. I mean, I think they have to stay on Trump's ass and particularly around some of these economic issues that go to the well-being of, you know, working folks who he has rallied around largely around cultural issues, in a sense, as you say, of drift.

Amy, that the Republicans have exploited. I think there's hay to make, too. You can't let him have strength for free. You can't let him have a winner who delivers. Because the truth is, his career, his life has been a story of failure. His whole success gospel thing is a complete creation.

And so I'd like to hear more about that. I'd like to hear about Trump, the failure, failure after failure after failure after failure. Because I think you've got to you can't let him own that for free. And I think it's vulnerable. Yeah, I don't know. You know, again, I think so many things have been tested.

I do think that populist economics versus Trump economics is the most potent. Speaking of Trump, his folks moved into the RNC like a conquering army. Yeah, there won't be a single Xerox machine or computer that doesn't go out the back door. It's going to be like a mob blowout thing where you owe them money and they come in and just pull everything out of there.

They've already done it with the legal fees. His daughter-in-law, Lara Trump, is now the vice chair of the party. And here's what she said on being appointed to that position. I can guarantee you that over the next eight months, you are going to see things happen at the Republican National Committee unlike you have ever seen before, because this is a must-win election. So I guarantee you that she's right.

that a Republican National Committee run by Trump is going to do things that we've never seen before. No, you're going to have dingbats with chainsaws running around. The data people all quit, by the way. Chris LaCivita, who ran the Trump campaign through this to this point, is now the chief executive, Amy, of the RNC. He's not a

He's not a crazy dude. He is a very strategic, very smart, very competent. Exactly. It comes from the this is the most competent Trump team that has been put together since he first came down the escalator in 2015. And I guess that's the question. I mean, it's for you all. Yeah.

been on campaigns where presidential campaigns curious your take on the role of the big committee, the RNC or the DNC. It just seems to me in this day and age that it's advocacy. It's importance is less critical than ever. And, you know, if,

It would be hard if you're the lower down on the ballot, the more you need. It's a fundraising vehicle. It's a fundraising vehicle. But it's not like, yeah, it's not like, oh, my gosh, the RNC is in shambles. I guess Trump can't win. Well, but there are two things that can go very wrong and very wrong.

Well, might one is the high dollar fundraising is in shambles. They're not raising the major dollar donors one because Trump is radioactive. And two, there's no faith that the building won't steal or use it all for legal fees. So the power of the money machine is diminished. Second, the Trump folks, including La Cevita, said,

are not data wizards. And the competent people who run the master data file and a lot of the important infrastructure there have now been thrown out the window. So the things that the RNC can do well, it is likely it will do less well and it'll raise less money. Now, that...

determine the outcome of the presidential race? No, but it's a material loss. Let me suggest the counter to those two things. One is I think that their whole objective here is to ring every last dollar they can out of the Republican National Committee for for the campaign, perhaps for Trump's legal needs. Lara Trump hasn't have hasn't

denied that and uh you know it does give people a place people who might be a little uncomfortable big donors gives them a place to put their money without donating directly i think they fired a whole bunch of people and maybe the purge was motivated by uh you know maybe it was a loyalty purge i think a lot of it had to do with money and they just want they want the money as to data

I actually think the Trump campaign has been pretty damn good at that. That's the one thing they have been good at is using data to slice and dice and reach their people. Well, in the primary electorate.

To them, every campaign is a Republican primary, including in the general. So I think that's an open question. The other thing is I guarantee you the funniest finance story after the election in November will be the four or five million they're going to spend on private aircraft, hair and makeup, flying Larry Trump around to be a celebrity.

because it'll be a plaything to them and they will just raid the party to pay for that kind of ridiculous ego stuff. Okay, let's take a break right here for a word from our sponsor. We'll be right back. Speaking about parties, Trump had one on Friday for Viktor Orban.

Yes. That was quite the transition. That was actually an impressive transition. Yeah, Putin didn't want to show up. He wanted a bigger ice sculpture, so they had to go with Orban. Yeah, I mean, I know Orban is very popular with the Tucker Carlson wing of the Republican Party, but they're in a general election now.

Does this really benefit them to be hanging with Viktor Orban, who is a Putin acolyte? Well, they think fascism is the new Obamacare, David. It's the secret. They're going to hang everything on it, and nobody's better than Orban.

It's sick. But I'm serious. It is that. But it is also just as a strategic issue. What is the thinking there? Either of you guys. I mean, I'm trying to figure out what or is this is is this is is this the analog to Biden needing credit? Does Trump just.

Does he sow Jones for autocrats that he just wants to be with them? This is where I question the old Trump crack machine. There are more capable people there, but this is Trump scratching an itch.

And ultimately, the tougher the campaign gets, the more Trump will ignore these folks. He doesn't give a damn what La Cevita thinks of his own instinct is I got to do something else. So this is Trump. Yeah, everything in Trump world is ultimately Trump. That's exactly right. That to me is a million dollar question, right? Is what?

when the spotlight comes on, when the pressure comes on, when the campaign is on, he's doing the things that are only pushing away those winnable voters, those swing voters. Now, look, do I think a bunch of people are sitting around right now going, you know,

you know what? Yeah. The cost of my rent went up, but I really want to talk about Victor Orban. No, no, no, that's true. But, but, but it does lead to the bigger question of is, you know, where is he getting his information and who is he speaking to? And yes, everybody in Tucker world in that eco chat and that echo chamber, uh,

That is somebody now that is part of our team. If you're part of our team, then I will make you, you know, do whatever you need to be happy. But the team is worried that it's expanding beyond that core team. You know, I'm sure for La Cevita and Susie Wiles and the people who have been running the campaign, there's always a fear that the back door swings open and the bar scene from Star Wars opens.

rolls in and they start doing stuff like this. President Trump, by the way, and people don't like it when you but Trump, but he was president could be again. He promised overnight that if he was, if he is, that his foot one among his first day actions will be to pardon the January 6th hostages. Right, right.

Right. Patriots all. I don't think that plays that well in a general election either. I don't think so. So, you know, to your point, Amy and Mike, I really I think that there this is going to be a slugfest from start to finish. I can't tell you how it's going to end. But I do think this I think as people do focus on Trump.

that it's not going to help him. He's getting all the upside and none of the downside of his sort of craziness. I want to believe that, and I do as a voter, but I'm just haunted by 1980 with Carter. Well, nobody's going to vote for a crazy movie actor. They wanted to fire Carter, and they did. And they want to fire Biden. So for all the focus on Trump, which I agree with,

They got to fix Biden at least somewhat. And Biden's got to fix Biden. And I see green shoots from the State of the Union. So I'm kind of feeling a little better about that. But I don't know if Trump alone will be enough unless...

Biden can do himself some good. All I'm saying is I don't think because of the primary campaign and because people actually have lives to live that they've been focused very much on the actual race. And that's true. The Trump clown show will grow and it'll be more in the center frame. That's a good point. But I will say this. The grip he has on the Republican Party right now is really something to behold.

And one guy who's harnessed it really well is Steve Daines, the head of the Republican Senate committee, who has become a Trump whisperer. It also makes me wonder, does he have a play here on leadership stuff? But he is a Trump whisperer, and he has gotten Trump to endorse, rather than 2022 when Trump endorsed all these things,

Cranks. Right. Cranks is a good word. And ended up saddling the Republican Party with losing candidates. Daines has gotten them to endorse candidates they think can win. And it happened again in Michigan this week. Right. Rogers. Yeah. Rogers gets endorsed. Longtime Republican congressman, former chair of the House of Representatives.

Homeland Security Committee, former FBI agent. Uh, now, you know, the problem for all of these candidates is once Trump gives, Trump takes, and it's, it becomes harder to separate yourself out from him. I mean, Rogers is out there, uh, having to, who, who was a hawk in the house is having to endorse Trump's thinking on NATO and, uh,

If you follow Mike Rogers, he's right there at the Katie Britt booth, cashing in what used to be a pretty respectable set of beliefs. And so is this person. This was something. We've got to get to the mail, but before we do, I just have to play some of this tape from the weekend when Nancy Mace, the congresswoman from South Carolina, who, by the way, after January 6th,

She attacked Trump for putting all our lives at risk and said he had no future in the GOP. Here she is with George Stephanopoulos in what was a pretty remarkable exchange. You've endorsed Donald Trump for president. Judges and two separate juries have found him liable for rape and for defaming the victim of that rape. How do you square your endorsement of Donald Trump with the testimony we just saw?

Well, I will tell you, I was raped at the age of 16. And any rape victim will tell you I've lived for 30 years with an incredible amount of shame over being raped. I didn't come forward because of that judgment and shame that I felt.

It's a shame that you will never feel, George. And I'm not going to sit here on your show and be asked a question meant to shame me about another potential rape victim. I'm not going to do that. It's actually not about shaming you. It's a question about Donald Trump. No, you are shaming me. You've endorsed Donald Trump for president. Donald Trump has been found liable for rape by a jury.

Donald Trump has been found liable for defaming the victim of that rape by a jury. It's been affirmed by a judge. It was not a criminal court case, number one. Number two...

I live with shame. And you're asking me a question about my political choices, trying to shame me as a rape victim. And I find it disgusting. So, Amy, I mean, where to begin? Yeah. Funhouse mirror. Well, we're at the time now where as long as you are, well, the enemy of my enemies, my friend, a sort of situation. And as long as you are seen as being on the right side of the

You're on the right team. You're on the right tribe. These sorts of things then become less important to voters. But, you know, here's Nancy Mace, who's made her—she was a rape victim, and she has made that a central part of her story and her politics—

And I'm not criticizing that at all. I think it's important for these issues to be out front and confronted. But she dismisses this judgment because she says it was a civil case and not a criminal case. It wasn't a criminal case because like her.

The woman who was assaulted waited for a long time to go public with it because perhaps she felt shamed.

And it's just like it was it was so. But this is this is what Trump demands. And what you all you have to surrender to be part of it is your your dignity and integrity. And, you know, Mace is also in a unique category of her own.

where, you know, she has been all over the map for the last, what has this been, four years or so since she's been in Congress. She seems to, more than anything, enjoy being in the limelight. And

There's whether it's making statements against Trump, as she did early on after the January 6th events, or whether it's now defending him. So, you know, some of this is there are people, you know, Nancy Mace, I think, is in her own unique category because of who she is and what she's been willing to do. But to your point, I take your point, David, that.

If you are going to be on the ballot in 2024 as a Republican, you cannot distance yourself from Trump. The ones who tried to do it in 2016 all failed. The ones who tried to do it in 2020 failed. You can either get on board or get off the ballot. But this is the Trump party is your party.

Yeah. No, he's the presidential nominee. That'll define things. That's why Murphy's sitting here with us. It is a thin gruel, and she believes in absolutely nothing. Well, she also, like many of them, feared primaries, and that's when she, I mean, he reeled her in pretty quick after she... Oh, it was incredible. She did a bit. Anyway, she is the atomic clock of not believing in anything. Okay, then let's take a break right here, and we'll be right back. Listener!

If you have for us, the hacks, a question, you can email us at hacksontap at gmail.com, hacksontap at gmail.com, or you can get all 20th century on us and leave us a voicemail at our cool number that nobody can remember. What is that number? 773-389-4471. I'll repeat it because who can remember that? 773-389-4471.

And we ought to thank the Hacks on Tap AI unit for that depiction of your voice. It's uncanny. It sounded just like you. When you leave that message for us, by the way, remember, leave your name so we can make fun of you. And second, no speeches. We do the bloviating around here. So please keep it to about 20, 25 seconds. And if it's a great question and we have time, we'll play it on the air and we'll even try to answer it. Our first question from Omar, and this is going to go to Amy.

Hi, guys. This is Omar from Chicago. The battleground states that they're focusing on this time, last time it was North Carolina. It was Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Arizona, Georgia. Is that list pretty much going to be the same this time around? Should Democrats or the Republicans be focusing on any other pickups? Should they be slicing any states from that list? Thanks so much. I'm a huge fan. Omar, thank you for the question. You know, like any good sequel,

This has not just the same main characters, but it also has the same background. And what we know right now is that those, yes, indeed, those same six states that were determinative of the 2016 election are

And the 2020 election are going to be at the center of the battleground map this time around. So I put in Nevada, Arizona, Georgia, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin. Now, North Carolina, I put on the out a little bit on the outside of that. But of those six states, every single one of them has been decided by Congress.

Three points or less for these last two elections. And our friend Ron Brownstein has another good stat when looking at the Electoral College. But since 2008, so the last four presidential elections, all but 10 states voted.

have gone the same way in every single presidential election. We've never seen that before in sort of modern history. So look, yes, you say if you're Democrats, you go, look, we got to expand some app a little bit. Let's do North Carolina.

Okay. If you're Republicans, they say maybe, maybe New Hampshire. I still think New Hampshire or Minnesota. That's the other Republican dream. They always like to do Minnesota. You mentioned a state though, that I think is going to be really, really tough this year, which is, uh, Nevada. You know, I, I think you spoke to, you speak to anybody in the democratic party and they're concerned about Nevada. Uh,

large number of Hispanic voters. Hispanic voters who went two-thirds for Biden last time are running about even at best right now. That state is a concern, and they feel better about North Carolina than they do about Georgia, and partly because of the governor's race last week in Super Tuesday. You now have a race between a

kind of center left, very, you know, kind of normal lieutenant governor versus a I'm sorry, attorney general who's running for governor Stein, Josh Stein versus Mark Robinson, the lieutenant governor, who is very much like in the, you know, in the image of the kind of Trumpy candidate who lost in 2022, very extreme on issues like choice,

You know, lots of anti-Semitic comments in his background. Stein, the other candidate, is Jewish. They feel that's going to create a lot of ferment at the grassroots that will help Biden in a state that's been close. Obama carried it.

states that have been close in the last couple, in the last few cycles. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. If you look at the makeup of those two states, Nevada and North Carolina, those were the kinds of states that Obama put on the board in 2008 and 2012, in part because of this theory that the growing American electorate, right? Younger voters, especially younger voters of color were the future of the, of the democratic party. Republicans could never win them over and,

And Georgia got onto the map most recently because of how energized and, uh,

the black vote was during the 2020 election and even going into 2022 for Warnock, who's obviously not on the ballot. And the infrastructure there that was the Stacey Abrams machine doesn't seem to be running on all cylinders this time around. I'm not sure it ever did. Yeah. All the great overrated things. No, it did. It turned out. But can you win North Carolina? Let me ask you this, David. If, if,

Biden is struggling with African-American voters, especially younger African-American voters, enough so that he can't win Georgia, how does he win North Carolina? First of all, you have to correct that problem. I mean, if Biden, if he's giving up 20 to 25 percent of the African-American vote as he is in polling right now, this is maybe an academic discussion and not just about North Carolina. So you have to find ways to address that problem. But you do also have these booming sort of

college towns and suburban areas there. And that has made the state more attractive. It helped Obama. But yes, you identify the right problem. We got to keep moving. Just quickly, I can't resist tagging one thing, though. Michigan and Georgia, also by far the biggest states for EV investment and manufacturing jobs. It's

If Biden can turn that into a plus, it'll make a huge deal there. And Michigan is the state more than any other I'm watching. There's so many things going on. Do we have to call this an ad, though? I mean. Well, no, we did the Nevada governor's ad. So I thought I'd come over and do this one. Here's my final word on this. I think that we're going back to the future and that Biden needs Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan. Yep.

And I think the thing that's going for him there, he's trailing in all those states now. The thing that's going for him there, he's got three very he's got three Democratic governors, three party organizations that are on the upswing. Wisconsin's is the best in the country. Whitmer has a great organization. Shapiro is very savvy.

But that's going to be, to me, where the main battles are going to be. He'll still need, even if he wins those states, one more electoral vote. Could get it out of Nebraska, too, because they split their electoral votes. But those states are the ones to watch. Hey, Murphy, a guy named Marty is just champing at the bit to ask you a question. Hey, Haps, Martin from Los Angeles. My question is,

Seeing as these exit polls show that around 30% of Haley voters say they won't vote for Trump and the general election polls are Trump up, is it possible that most of these guys are pulling the lever on the polls, the general election polls, for a third-party candidate? Thanks in advance. Love the show. Oh, thank you, Marty. Thanks for listening. Well, so the exit polls on the Haley thing are...

misleading a little because those Haley voters are not all Republicans. People are kind of like, ah, they're all Republicans. They're not going to vote for Trump. It's done. There are a lot of, uh, anti-Trump independents and some Democrats who crossed over to vote for Haley to have the joy of voting against Trump a little early. Um,

So you got to be careful. There is a segment of the Republican Party that is hostile to Trump. The question is, how big is it really? And is it material? And in the end, particularly when Biden's done trying to raise taxes with his budget, will they hold their nose and go to Trump? Will they hold their nose and go to Biden? Or to your point, will they go waste their vote in one of these ridiculous third party things, which is a nightmare for Biden?

Because Biden needs a lot of voters who can't stand him voting for him. He has to win the I hate both these guys election, which he did last time. Well, and the Wall Street Journal poll that was published last Sunday had Biden leading among double doubters or double haters, whatever you want to call them. People who had an unfavorable view of both he and Trump where he was winning by 10 points overall.

uh among those voters i think the third party thing is going to have a little spike over the summer like they often do because everybody's disgusted and it's fun and the media over reported but in the end i think it'll melt so i'm it could be really catalytic could be on the progressive left you got cornell west there are a lot of loose ends there but in the end i think it might not be quite as big of a factor as people are speculating it could be but that's a guess i'm gonna amy i'm gonna i'm gonna

I'm going to homogenize this with the last question we were going to take from a guy named Joe.

who said that it's is it rather arrogant to dismiss the third party candidates as if voters were beholden to the Republicans and Democrats. It is fair to say, and I think you would, that there is not going to be a third party or independent president of the United States in in January of 2025. So the role of these candidates is.

will be to tip this thing one way or another. Yep. And that is what every voter is ultimately saying by voting for a third party candidate, which is they have absolutely every right to say, I don't like either one of this. This is not a fair system. This doesn't seem to be a system that's working for people. And yet it is the system that we have. And most

my big question actually thinking through this third party is its impact not just on the presidential but how is it going to filter down to like the senate races and the house races with these folks are they going to come back in right they may go third party will they come back for a senate race or house race because those things are going to be determined by equally narrow margins but uh

Because these third parties are going to have to fill out a slate, presumably, in their states. They're not going to just have a presidential candidate, but they'll have other candidates.

They may. Some will. Some will. Some will not. Like, is RFK going to have a slate? Well, he's not a party. He's an independent candidate. That's right. So, no, I don't think he will. But they might get independent ballot lines in a few places. You know, there will be some cranks sprinkled through it all. The No Labels Party, they're plowing ahead, they said. Don't have a candidate yet. I wonder what will finally happen with them.

They keep claiming they're going to do it, but everybody says no. Maybe we should run. I think it might be time for hack leadership here. It is. It's a unity ticket. Look at you two. Yeah, that'd be nice. Former foes, now friends. It's a great story. We're running on the no shame ticket. That's our, that's our, we're bringing them back. Amy Walter, uh,

My only regret is that we don't have a longer show because. Oh, thank you. We have a lot to talk about. I agree. I agree. It's always great to have you. And we'll see you soon. And you too, Murphy. Yeah. And check out Amy's work at Cook Political Report. Indispensable. Thank you. Excellent. You want to know what's going on? Read Cook. Yeah.

political report with Amy Walter. Thank you. That was such a great plug. I'm going to make one more quick plug. We have an app now where you can see our ratings called InBrief. It is free. You can go to the app store InBrief. And I'm bringing back the podcast, so you guys need to come on to the On Years so we can have this conversation.

I mean, I'm no Axelrod interviewer, but I'll try to get some tears. We're like poor relations. We go wherever we're invited. So we will see you there. It's like the old director joke. Can we get them? Only if we ask. There we go. All right, guys. All right, guys. Take care. See you, David. Thanks, Amy. Bye. Bye. Bye.