Main Character Energy (with Steve Israel)
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Hey, pull up a chair. It's Hacks on Tap with David Axelrod, Robert Gibbs, and Mike Murphy.

I know I've said this before.

You're such a dick. Now, I didn't realize...

Really, truly, right? Again, I didn't realize America's homeless problem is caused entirely by easy access to grocery cartons. All right, there you have it. Jon Stewart is back, raising hell, taking down Tucker Carlson for being a useful idiot for Putin just days before the assassination of Navalny. Mike Murphy, I guess you weren't, you're not surprised by Tucker's

But this was quite something. Yeah, I knew. I mean, it's so he used to be a friend of mine. I go way back with Tucker before he hit his head or decided to become a cheap carnival act. And now he used to use the old Russian phrase. And I've lost a lot of my Russian, so I'm going to mangle it.

But Polizhnaya Iziot, which is useful idiot in the words of your personal hero, Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, it's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. Why doesn't he just go around the corner to Lubyanka and check out the cells while he's there? Yeah, well, I want to talk about the other useful idiots who are involved in American politics right now. No shortage. Yeah, but here is a guy who is no one's idiot. Yeah.

Former Congressman Steve Israel, good to see you, my friend. Now the director of the Brooks Institute of Politics and Global Affairs at Cornell University and

the proprietor of Theodore's Bookstore in Oyster Bay, New York, named for Teddy Roosevelt, whose photo is right behind me on the wall, you guys, from when he was parading through the streets of Chicago in 1912 after he walked out of the Republican convention and formed the progressive Bull Moose Party. That's right.

Complete with horses in the convention floor with disgruntled rough riders. It was quite the convention. Now we just have madness. But back then we had cavalry. We did. Steve, good to see you. It's great to be with you. You know, I am doing this from Oyster Bay, Long Island, where I have my bookstore. Adjacent to my home is where Theodore Roosevelt is buried.

And when I walk past it, I think I can hear him turning in his grave. What is happening to the Republican Party right now? Well, I mean, I think that's where I want to start because it was striking the sequence of events, you know, the...

Donald Trump handcuffing Republicans in Congress and preventing them from passing a bill that would have toughened enforcement at the border, but also given Ukraine what it needs to fight back money for Israel as well, including humanitarian aid for Gaza. He stopped that, said it would be bad for Republicans and good for Biden, so they shouldn't act. And then in quick order, we had the

the murder of Navalny. We had Ukraine having to retreat for the first time in a year in that war. And we had Trump off selling sneakers at Sneaker Con in Pennsylvania. Literally, a Sneaker Con. Yeah, exactly. He is the Sneaker Con. And yet,

And yet, Murphy, the runaway frontrunner for the Republican nomination, probably the frontrunner for president right now. Yeah, I don't know. I think the president thing is such a train wreck with two candidates the country doesn't want. I'll call that a fair fight for now. Oh, it is definitely a fair fight. That's why I said probably. I'm not sure either. But the frontrunner for the nomination, and we'll get to Nikki's last stand, where she's creeping up a little. But, you know, who cares? Instead of losing by 30, she loses by 22.

Yeah, I do have a theory, and I want to go to Steve for this, because not only is he an expert bookseller and former esteemed Democratic Paul. Let's call it like it is. He's a savant. A savant, yes. Yeah, exactly. The Oracle of Oyster Bay. I mean, we can keep going. But I want to talk about New York Three for a minute, where the Democrats had a tough race in a very cranky Nassau County that had been punishing Democrats for a while. So I thought there was a solid chance.

in a close race, the ours could win. But they racked up in your old district or parts of it. They keep redistricting it. But I think you had most of the North Shore there. I did in Congress.

I'd love your analysis, and I'll throw out one idea. I think some of Trump's last-minute crazy NATO-Russia stuff put a little bit of squelch in the close of that race and didn't hurt her. I don't think it's the main reason, but I don't think it helped. And Nikki's picking up a little, irrelevantly, for delegates. But I don't know. I think Trump is in a bit of a decline now, which is good for Biden. Not.

Not in the primary. This is the decline. It's finally coming. Murphy's been predicting Trump's decline for a year and a half. He's earned it with his actions. Hope springs eternal. That's what we're going to rename the podcast. But let's let Steve go. I want to hear from the next person. Well, first, thanks for having me on. This is a highlight for me. Look, I want to say two things. One is I've just returned from Germany with former president.

Republican Congressman Tom Davis. Tom, as you know, he chaired the National Republican Campaign Committee. I chaired the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee. We were like two opposing football coaches glaring at each other from opposite ends of the field. My job was to defeat his guys. Now you're like Hope and Crosby. You're traveling the world. Right. Or Abbott and Costello. Performing. Yeah. One of the two. Yeah. And so to the point that you're making...

We did eight city tour talking about the presidential elections, talking about American politics, the transatlantic alliance. Everywhere we went, the fear of a Trump administration and the election of Donald Trump was thick and palpable. I mean, these audiences believe that Donald Trump is going to abandon NATO, is going to cut a deal with Putin where the tanks roll through Kiev and then Warsaw, and then

And then maybe Germany. Sounds about right. Yeah, it's not exactly far-fetched. I mean, he's sort of foreshadowing that, isn't he? So they absolutely believe it. Now, as to whether that affected the special, I could see some of it on the margins, but let me...

share with you what I think the key takeaways are. First of all, special elections are instructive, but not entirely predictive. You know, there are a lot of people who were looking at the special saying, oh my God, it bodes well for the Democrats. Look, I'd rather win than lose. But as you guys know, special elections capture mood, not outcome. When I chaired DCCC, I won special elections and it had no bearing on the final results in November. And I lost special elections that had no bearing.

But the fact of the matter is that this is not just a special election. This is part of a very favorable trend for Democrats. Despite all of our bedwetting and hand-wringing, the fact is we're killing it in the suburbs. We keep on winning special elections. We keep on winning referenda in moderate suburban battlegrounds, whether it's on choice or other issues alike.

We're racking up the victories. Why in New York three? What happened in New York three? Number one, candidate quality matters. Our candidate, Tom Suozzi, pitch perfect, has run, knows what he's doing, was all over the place. Former member. Former member. Their candidate was in the witness protection program. They tried to hide her. They feared attention to her.

Number two, and this is a really important lesson for Democrats. So the last lesson is pick your opponent well. Pick your opponent as well as you can. That's right. Well, with Republicans, you often win that lottery these days. Crazy times demand a crazy party. And, you know, we're not stepping back from that. Stepping up.

Second thing that Swazi teaches Democrats is stop avoiding tough issues like immigration, which is salient in New York City. We tend to either avoid them or layer in our 42-point plan. Swazi just charged right in. I mean, he flipped the script on the Republicans saying, I will protect our borders.

And number three, and finally, he did something that's really important and special. He not only retained his base, but he attracted persuadables. And so we talked about abortion and he talked about democracy, those two issues that are important to retain the base or turn out the base. But then he also talked about crime and immigration.

which satisfied more moderate voters. You put it together, and that was the recipe to win a very important special election. So you talk about flipping the script. You know, it seems to me that Democrats have had that opportunity since the moment that Trump killed the immigration bill

uh, in the, in the, uh, Senate. And I'm wondering, Steve, why haven't, why hasn't there been a full court press on this from the moment that happened? Why haven't the, why haven't Democrats been out there every day? Why haven't the, why hasn't Biden in some form or fashion been out there every day on this? It seems to me when you're handed an opportunity like that, you ought to

And that probably did influence the special. I believe it very much did. I couldn't have a worse headline in a moderate suburban district that wants solutions than Donald Trump wants to kill this compromise. And that and Swazi exploited it. So you've got to, you know, you've got to know how to exploit opportunities. And Swazi exploited it. He made that the issue.

Not that, you know, the Democrats may not be as strong on the border as Republicans, but that the Republicans killed a common-sense, bipartisan solution. What I'm saying is, Swazi did. Why hasn't the whole party done that? Why hasn't this been a mantra? Why hasn't the zone been flooded on this issue? Because I think my party likes to see proof of concept.

And Swazi was the proof of concept. I would imagine, and I'm hearing from my former colleagues, that the Swazi blueprint now instructs them to go out and flip the script. He did it. Now they believe they can as well.

Yeah, but Murphy, what about the lead man? What about the president? Why is that campaign not, why have they not done more to exploit what I think was a terrible mistake and now the Ukraine issue is another opportunity? Shouldn't this just be like a beat down? Yeah, my instinct is, I'm a little torn because you've been selling this for a while and I fundamentally agree with you.

But I think it is the 2000 playbook to say, where's the reasonable compromise when we have such a polarized place? In a district like New York 3, though, one of the wealthiest, most thoughtful in the country, fine choice of bookstores there, there's a little more traction for this kind of thing.

But the Republicans see it as we're killing on immigration. The country hates Biden. Keep the issue. It's deeply cynical. I mean, it's heartbreaking. They undercut their own reasonable people who want to actually govern in the Senate like Lankford and Romney. So, yeah. But the question is, will it have the grip? Clearly.

If I were the Biden guys, I'd run the play big. I'd totally flood the zone. I'd go in full offense. But something's holding them back. And I don't know if it's Biden or they don't think it'll work. First chance in three years, you guys, that they had a chance to flip the script.

Right. And they punch it.

We live near New York City and people are waking up to a message environment and headlines in the New York media market almost every week about a new busload of migrants coming into New York City. Yeah, well, we have that in Chicago as well. And you have it in Chicago. But, you know, don't necessarily have the same salience in other competitive districts. So, you know, to your point, David, you exploit the hell out of it where it works, you know, and you talk about other things where it might be a little softer. Yeah, I just I'm of the mind that this immigration issue is a huge problem.

vulnerability that needs to be addressed. And I expect that in the State of the Union, maybe before, that he will do that and that he's going to toughen up on this and really go on the offense on him. Yeah, he'd be crazy not to. I mean, the State of the Union is a shot at it. But let me add one more point to this.

I, I think the Biden folks and we give a lot of armchair quarterback Biden advice here. They they used to listen to it three times a week. Now we barely get them through half the show.

And I get it. They're in a tough situation. But boy, oh, boy, they want to talk about, you know, democracy is at stake. But if you pull on it, it's not a big cutting issue. It ought to be, but it's not. If they were on full offense about the do nothing Republicans who sank the immigration compromise, deliver nothing, you know, boom, boom, boom.

And make it more meat and potatoes in this abstract thing of I say your party's against democracy. I think they get better traction. But something's holding them down. I think it might be the POTUS. I think he might have a real thing to want to put on a three-cornered hat and go out there and declare himself George Washington and democracy. But it's pretty clear it's not the magic formula. It's ancillary. It can help. But it's not the core argument. And they haven't found that yet, at least in my view.

Well, it also may be hesitance because there's reluctance and elements of the base to a really, really tough immigration policy. Listen, on the democracy issue, I do believe, and all you have to do is watch the events of the last few weeks to understand.

I do believe democracy is on the ballot, but I think for people who are just trying to get by day to day, that's not a kitchen table issue. If you live in Oyster Bay, you probably have the luxury not to in any way impugn Oyster Bay, but you probably have the luxury to sit around your kitchen table talking about the future of democracy. If you live most other places, you're probably talking about the price of eggs. Yeah, the future of your truck payment next month.

That's exactly right. And on that, David, I think you're so right. Look, for the Democratic base, democracy is a really important issue. For the Republican base, it is too, only they believe that democracy is defined by, you know, stopping these socialists from taking over the country. What matters are the people in the middle. 40% of the electorate locked into Trump, in my view. 40% locked into Biden. 20% in the middle

They're not debating democracy. And they tend to engage in electoral politics very late, probably in the fall. David, you and Murph, you know this better than I do. They kind of wake up to the fact that there's an election several months before. You know what they're talking about at their kitchen tables? The price of eggs, inflation, whether they're going to be able to afford a vacation, whatever.

I saw on this point some really fascinating data that changed my mind on the impact of January 6th. I thought it was over for the Republicans after that. I thought it was done. I mean, could you have a more vivid and disgusting display of attacks on our security and our democracy? And I saw a poll that said that for independents and moderates, their view of January 6th is it was a horrible attack on the Capitol. Cops were hurt.

The people who did it are being punished. They're being prosecuted. They're in jail. Now talk about issues that matter to me and my family. Right. The system worked. Moving on. Yes, exactly. And honestly, you know, what should be an asset for Biden as not fully, you

in part because they took the side trip on Bidenomics last fall that was ill-timed and probably tone deaf. But he is, you know, when he is at his best, Biden is the guy from Scranton, not from Washington, who is very much in touch with Biden

The hopes and dreams and concerns of people in working class communities. And, you know, I think that they're getting around to that when you look at some of the advertising and some of the social media that they're doing, you know, stressing things like the prescription drug.

uh, stuff he's, he's done and, and things that go to the day-to-day experience of working class, uh, people. But yeah, I, I think there's a lot of work to be done here, but listen, we got a little sidetracked there because I did, I wanted to just close out this discussion on Republicans and Trump and this situation, uh, in Ukraine. Uh, and, uh,

You know, here's Tim Scott on Sunday being asked about the fact that for three days, Donald Trump said nothing about Navalny. When he finally did Murphy, it was basically to compare himself to Navalny. Right. He's been persecuted by the deep state, just like poor Navalny. But listen to Tim Scott, who's campaigning for vice president, when he was asked about Trump's language on this.

Well, Donald Trump hasn't said a word yet about the death of Navalny or about Putin's culpability. Alexei Navalny was poisoned and sentenced to 19 years in prison while Trump was president. Do you want Trump to say something and why do you think he hasn't yet?

Well, Jake, I think a better question really is let's look at the middle. Let's look at the middle of the challenges that we face today across the globe. The middle of the challenge you see front and center is the failure of Joe Biden. And when President Trump was our president, there was no incursion in Ukraine like there was under President Obama. When Trump left office, there was an actual all out war.

war in Ukraine. And so when you ask the question about keeping Putin in check, you look at the actions and the administration of Donald Trump and you come to one clear conclusion that without question, Ukraine was safer, the world was safer, and America was certainly safer. Well, Navalny wasn't safer. He was poisoned, likely by Putin or the Kremlin.

I mean, Mike, the contortions of these, you know, Lindsey Graham skipped the Munich concert

security conference. That would be like me missing my bar mitzvah. Okay. I mean, he, every year, I know, I know. He used to lead the karaoke in the, in the bar afterward because he ended up voting against aid to Ukraine. I'm shocked. I'm shocked that Lindsay folded like a cheap table. I mean, he's just emblematic of a whole party. No, no. I mean, what can I say? It's awful. It's awful. They've all given up. I mean, Tim Scott's a good example.

I had some enthusiasm for it at the beginning because I know him to be an optimistic conservative. But he cashed that thing in in a New York minute and joined the epidemic we have in politics in general. It's easy for Democrats to wear a halo because their party's not in crisis. But still, the Repubs are on the line.

And they've joined this virus of gamism, which is how do I play the game to get vice president? What I say, what I do doesn't matter. So the most risk adverse chicken compass abandoning move possible is the right one. Giggle, giggle. And that's why Tim Scott is a mediocre hack and no longer boss.

belongs to be in office. I mean, look, I couldn't think less of him. You just probably secured his nomination as vice president. Yeah, no, no, there you go. That's worth five points in the modern Republican Party. But Steve, is there any price to be paid for them walking away on these issues? I mean, I presume at some point there are going to be senior former military officials and others who are going to stand up and say what you said, which is,

Donald Trump as president, again, is a national security disaster. Yes. Does that have an impact on the 20% that you're talking about? I think it has an impact absolutely on that 20%. Again, 40%, no matter what, you know, they're going to suck up to Donald Trump and 40% are voting for Joe Biden, no matter what. That 20%, national security, supporting our troops, keeping them safe.

is really an important issue. It's central to them, as long as their economy is doing well. And I never thought, never thought that the Republican Party would open itself up to attacks as being weak on defense, which they are now, unwilling to fund Israel.

Which they are unwilling to fund right now without all sorts of... We're talking about the country. We're not talking about you. Okay, so let's... Yes, let's make that distinction. That's a very important distinction. Yes. Unwilling to support our allies. Tolerant of a former president saying that he would incite...

to attack our allies. That does not play well with those independent voters, and it reflects a Republican Party that has just absolutely lost its bearing on national security. They have gone from the grand old party to a party of suck-ups,

who are willing to compromise our national security in order to keep Donald Trump happy with them. Call the Los Angeles Fire Department because I see smoke coming out of Murphy's ears. No, I don't disagree with it. It breaks my heart. No, I know you don't. I know you don't. But I think you guys are missing the, what should I say, the Jurassic factor in the room here because that's all true. On the other hand, Biden carries a lot of negative weight on the Republican side of the aisle for pulling out of Afghanistan.

So Biden was not perceived as like the king of world politics. I do think, which is why I asked about New York three, that Trump has hurt himself by doubling down even more in this crazy stuff. And he has Nikki out chipping at him won't affect the Republican nomination, but that message is in the national news every day, a credible Republican with a foreign policy story, calling him an appeaser. So I think some of that's hurting him, but the, the Jurassic issue is, uh,

I think people, those independents have a low opinion of Trump.

But they want to fire Joe Biden because they think Trump is in their economic interest right now. That's the perception. And they think, let me finish, and they think he's too damn old because he looks old, acts old, sounds old. And until the campaign can get a message to move the old thing at least to the side of the spotlight, out of the center, and make it about something else, I think just carpeting about Trump could lead to it will be Carter Reagan again. We won't have a crazy old movie actor. No, we want to fire you, Jimmy.

And in the end, the president in the chair is the referendum. So that's what worries me is somebody wants Biden to win. Okay, then let's take a break right here and we'll be right back.

There's another element of this that I think we have to honor here in this discussion, which is there are a lot of Americans, and this is a hangover from the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan, who just don't, who legit, you know, have... Foreign wars, yeah. They don't want any money. They don't want to spend money over there. I've told this story before here, Steve, about my... I have a neighbor. I have a house in rural Michigan, and one of my neighbors, a farmer, said to me, I don't have anything against...

those Ukraine people, he said. But he said, you know, look at all the money we're spending over there and what we could do over here. My crop insurance has gone through the roof. It covers less. It's, you know, and he went on and on about all the needs we have back here. I would not. I think that is an element of the Republican Party right now. I think this America first thing

Yeah, I think you're right. You see it all over the primary. Of course, it's ironic that a good Republican farmer in West Michigan wants to abandon freedom and let Russia run wild to better fund the welfare state, more crop subsidies. But I'll put that aside for a minute. It's true. It is a problem. You've got 40 percent of the Republican electorate. I'll give you his name. You can call him. I will. We'll straighten him out.

We're sending Fred Upton over there to talk some sense. You're right, Mike, that Nikki Haley has been hammering away at this. I am, you know, it's curious because she was Trump's ambassador at the U.N. And, you know, he was not exactly hard on Trump.

Putin then, and she was a little more muted about it. Oh, yeah, totally complicit, but we take converts now. We're desperate. But here was an interesting exchange from Sunday because John Carl, our friend John Carl, who was recently with us, was pressing her on...

on whether she still said that she would support, you remember she raised her hand and said she would support Trump even if he were convicted of a felony.

And he was pressing her to see if she still felt that way. And it was sort of interesting. I'm not thinking about who I'm going to support in an election. But you've already said it. We are going to have a we are going to have a female president of the United States. It will either be me or it will be Kamala Harris. And if Donald Trump is the nominee.

of the in for the Republican Party. He will not win. Every poll shows that he will not win. And we will have a president Kamala Harris. I'm not going to allow that to happen. I'm not stopping. I'm not going anywhere. We're going to do this for the long haul and we're going to finish it. Does that mean you will not support him if he's the Republican nominee? That means I'm going to run and I'm going to win. And y'all can talk about support later. Right now, you can ask him if he's going to support me when I'm the nominee. Do you think he would?

Do you think he would? I highly doubt it. She wasn't ready for that one. You know, they ran the drill, make it about Kamala. Okay, I got it. She should just say, I've said I'll support the Republican nominee, but every day shows the country that he shouldn't be the Republican nominee. Wouldn't any lose to Kamala?

You know, she always makes things too complicated with the pure wedding, which is hurting her. It has from the beginning. I wish she started where she wound up after she lost the nomination race. She's going to get mamboed in her own state. Yeah. On Saturday. It was 30 points. I think she's going to lose by 20. Best case, 18. Worst case, 25. Does she keep going? I think that is a pretty big squelch. They put out a statement this morning saying she's in through four.

Super Tuesday. Steve, you're a historian among many other things of politics. What was the last candidate who got

beaten soundly in every primary and was the nominee of their party. I'm trying to think. I can't remember. It's a brain twister. I did not know there was going to be a pop quiz. I would have done my homework. Yeah, yeah. Get out on a limb. I'm interested to see what she does after next Saturday, because the only rationale if she doesn't win is to hang around hoping that something happens to Trump.

But then the party's not going to turn to her. Well, the problem is the delegates, even if they're instructed to vote for her because she starts miraculously winning all these primaries, are mostly, not all, but mostly Trump people. You know, so if you have an open convention, it's like zombie night. Now, maybe if he's in jail or a coma, God forbid-ish, something will, no, I wish him nothing but health and retirement starting tomorrow, I hope.

Point is, the old open convention where somebody gives a speech and they all flock to her, when the bodies were hardcore Trump chosen in local caucuses to pick the body who are instructed by the primary, not all, many places, is tough. Our old worry back in the dole days to really go back to, you know, Jurassic. Jurassic, yes. Yeah, we had a lot of Pat Robertson people who were dole delegates. So if we ever didn't get the number and opened it up,

all of a sudden there would have been a weird sci-fi soundtrack and they all would have turned like zombies and marched over to Pat. So anyway, the whole convention fantasy is a lot

a lot harder to do. It's not unlike the Biden retires fantasy because then the DNC picks and, you know, you get AOC. No, well, you could go. So let's, let's switch over to Biden, Steve, because Ezra Klein stirred the pot again last weekend in the New York times and said that Biden should step aside. I've touched the third rail. And I'm still, and I'm still doing your podcast, by the way. I know. I appreciate it. You're a brave man.

There goes that ambassador to Slovenia in the next term. Israel needs to be the ambassador to Israel. Israel would be perfect. Who could be better? I'm not sure that's a job anyone wants right now. No, not these days. Yeah, but, and Ezra's point was, you know, look, I said last November that I thought Biden should think about whether this was the best thing for him in the country, and that my concern was that the age issue was...

dominant, was increasingly dominant. And that, you know, the nature of things is that that doesn't likely happen.

get better. But I also said, if Joe Biden wants to be the nominee of the Democratic Party, he's going to be the nominee of the Democratic Party, and only he can make that decision. This idea, Steve, that a delegation of people led by Steve Israel are going to go up to the White House and persuade him for the good of the party to step aside and then turn the thing over to an open convention,

Give me your commentary on that. Oh, I love this question, David, because I've been putting my Cornell students through this exercise. And particularly important because you just stumped me on some political history. So let me counter with some political history on my own. The last time a Democratic incumbent president

decided not to run was... Harry Truman. LBJ. No, LBJ. He was sort of forced out, yeah, yes. This should be close to your heart, man, because this is Chicago. 68, LBJ says, you know what? I'm not going to do it. I'll step aside, right? And it goes to a convention, and the convention becomes literally a bloody mess. It becomes mayhem. It becomes chaos. It becomes crisis.

The factions can't agree on somebody. That mayhem spills out into the streets of Chicago where all the television footage is protesters beating up cops and cops beating up protesters. And Richard Nixon takes a look at this. At the time, the polls showed that he didn't have a convincing path to win the general. And he focuses on law and order. Look at them. They're beating up cops. I'm about law and order. Democratic Party emerges from that convention weak.

And they lose. Now, let's apply that historic lesson to now. By a point. But here's the lesson. Let's say that Joe Biden, you know, I'm such a big believer in the indispensable question of politics, then what? Let's say Biden says, okay, I'm done. Then what? Well, Kamala Harris dies.

And when I talk about this, people say, no, no, no, she can't be the one. You know, she can't be the one. Well, then we take the first African-American woman vice president in history and cast her aside or say, you've got to go into an open convention.

then what? What does that do for us? I just think the 1968 experience with political history taught Democrats not to repeat that experience. Well, let me just say, first of all, my main thought here is that however that convention would come out, I know Joe Biden pretty well. And

he ain't going anywhere. And unless he thinks that he can't control, intervene, he's not going anywhere. Because he can't. To me, it's an academic question. I do think the 68, and now you say that the chaos within the convention spilled out onto the street. That's actually wrong. The chaos in the streets spilled into the convention. Fair point. So, I mean, the convention actually, you know, party bosses,

were still active at that time. Primaries were not. It was only 1972 when primaries started becoming primary and there was still quite a bit of sway there too. And ultimately they decided to nominate Humphrey. But really the war, the civil rights movement, everything that was out on the street

was so difficult for the Democratic Party in 1968. That all said, I've been clear, I share some of Ezra's concerns. I think that Biden, and I share his analysis more than Murphy, I think he has been

That Biden has been a more than competent president and he's accomplished some really significant things. No, no. I actually think for left winger, he's done pretty well. I give him high ratings and he's done stuff I believe in and he's not Trump. But let me do one more historical point because we got so many nerds who listen to this podcast real quick. You guys remember this is a real historian question and I had to check it on Google here.

In 1956, the Democrats opened the vice presidential thing to the convention as a trick to create ratings for this new idea television. Hefoffer versus Kennedy. Right. Jack Kennedy's first attempt at national office, also running Mayor Wagner of New York, Hubert Humphrey, and the great Senator Al Gore. Al's dead. There's a great book about this out of print.

It'll have to be in the used corner at Theodore's called Ballots and Bandwagons by Ralph Martin, who was a Kennedy Flack kind of like former ink-stained wretch who wrote a very good tic-tac of them running to the suites and the whole mad thing. I highly recommend it. You can find it used. Anyways, I'm sorry to derail us, but I thought we'd add a little extra nerd food this week. Okay, let's take a break right here for a word from our sponsor, and we'll be right back. ♪

There was a really interesting interview that I didn't, that, that, uh, with, with Charlemagne, the God on, on this week, this week, I thought he was a dead King. Who's Charlemagne. I don't, I don't share Charlemagne. The God is, is the big African-American radio host of the breakfast club, which is a, as Steve knows in the New York market and around the country, a very, very, uh, sort of a, it's now become a, a, a required, uh,

stop for Democratic politicians. But it was interesting to hear his analysis because I think he was actually quite astute. And I wanted Steve to hear this and comment on it. We watched an attempted coup of this country happen.

on January 6th and everybody's acting like it was just a bunch of people, you know, while in that spring break, you know, down in Florida. Like we literally watched, you know, people try to overthrow the government because they didn't like the results of an election led by a former, you know, president.

If that doesn't cause a sense of urgency in people, I don't know what will. I mean, Biden does make that an issue over and over again. I mean, he constantly talks about that. Why is it not resonating? Well, he's just an uninspiring candidate. Like, you know, there's nothing about, you know, Joe Biden that makes you want to listen to him.

Do we put Charlemagne the God down as undecided? I don't think so. Charlemagne, I meant to run more of that clip, but he said Biden doesn't have main character energy.

and that his fear was that Biden would not lose to Trump, but he would lose to the couch. That is a fairly astute. We got a book, Charlemagne. I got to say, I remember hearing this in 2020. I go on MSNBC and occasionally on CNN during those tough primaries before South Carolina and hear the same stuff about Joe Biden, that he couldn't win the primary and get almost mocked by some of my fellow pundits.

And he won. Look, is he now the most inspiring candidate? Yes. Guess what? If this is a referendum on whether Joe Biden is inspiring, we lose. If this is a referendum on Donald Trump, we win.

And I think it's going to come down to those independent voters and what they're talking about at their kitchen tables six weeks before the election. I guess the question, Steve, is, and look, as I said, you know, I don't think it's a close call here, but Biden, we saw what happened in the last couple of weeks and people get pissed at me. I know we got a lot of mail and stuff about this that people complain when I talk about this because, you know, if you talk about the fact that Biden's

Biden is old, then people might think it. You know, it's like, come on, guys. The problem is every single goddamn poll you see, every focus group, it is a major concern. So, Steve, turning a thing into a choice and not a referendum requires clearing out, at least in some way, a concern that is a complete block.

It prevents people from giving Biden credit for what he's done because they can't imagine that he's driven stuff. And it it it prevents and it encourages them to to blame him for everything that goes wrong. So I appreciate the, you know, reference that you.

Uh, 2020, he did a hell of a job for us in 2008 and 12 as well. Uh, you know, he, he ran some game races for the U S Senate in the seventies, eighties, nineties. Uh, but the, I'm just talking about right now and the problem we have now, and I'm just trying to, uh, to,

I'm asking you and everybody to be clear eyed about it and say, what do we do about that? Build a time machine. David, I agree with you completely. And so this is elegant in its choreography because we go back to how did Tom Suozzi win a special election on an issue that would have plagued him? You lean into it.

You've got to acknowledge this is just good messaging 101. Yes. You can't ignore. You acknowledge. So they need to flip the script. They need to acknowledge that this is an issue and then pivot to what's really at stake and acknowledge those realities. Yes. I just wanted to say one thing next time the media is shouting questions at him. You're right. I'm old. He's old, too. But he's crazy. And keep moving. It is time to scratch and fight a little bit like Trump does.

And they're trying this regal White House president thing with the blue curtain. They also, and I've said this a hundred times, one more time, surround them with the young dynamic cabinet. They think it makes them look old. They've lost the old thing. The old thing is done. And they've got to let the energy out of it and run with it and run team v. team because the Trump

team is not a team of rivals. It's a team of dregs. Yeah. No, all of that I think is good advice. By the way, guys, I had Bill Bradley who has a new...

uh film out on max that's really kind of interesting it's like a one-man show where he talks about his life and career which is a quite quite an interesting story and the lessons that he learned from it but bradley i asked him about biden and he was very very much uh in his corner obviously old colleague of his but he told the story about a trip they made to uh the old uh

Soviet Union when Kosygin was in charge over there with Brezhnev and they met with Kosygin and he said they were going back and forth and it was a very sort of it was a very testy kind of meeting. And finally, Biden slammed his hand down on the table and said, come on, Alexei, don't shit a shitter.

And I'm thinking you need a little more of that. A lot more of that. It also shows he's alive. You know, I think that would help in terms of energy and that would help in terms of switching the kind of flipping the script here. A couple of things I just wanted to touch on here. We got to get to...

questions, I know. And gold sneakers, too. We need to do a flyby on that just for a minute. I think we have time. We do. We do. And by the way, I bought you a pair. It's on the way. Oh, excellent. Yes, I know. Trump said this thing in Michigan.

And as soon as I heard it, and Murphy, you will recognize this as both you guys will. I thought this may be the stupidest thing among many, many stupid things. But this is the stupidest thing that he could ever say. I could only imagine how this landed over at his campaign headquarters. Mail-in voting is totally corrupt. Get that through your head. It has to be.

The votes, I mean, it has to be. Yeah, thanks, Donald. We invented mail-in voting at the California Republican Party and used it to win some elections in the 80s because our suburbanites don't like to wait in line. So now he's suppressing his own. He's so stupid. It's so dumb. Steve, talk about the third district race.

I love this because in New York three, the Republicans were desperate to increase the number of people who were voting early. They could not let Swazi stake out too big a lead. And so they're playing constantly. They're emailing and calling and phone banking and knocking on doors saying you've got to vote early. You've got to mail in early. You've got to do, you know, send in your absentee ballots. And then you have the leader of their party saying it's corrupt. It just absolutely pulls the rug out from under Swazi.

campaign operatives and political operatives around the country. Yeah, there was a lot of email bopping around on that one, but he's done it before, you know, and also the RNC has turned into... No, I know, but you'd think he would have learned. Yeah, no, he won't learn because he is still...

He believes all the crazy stuff. One, he's crazy, and two, he always has. And by the way, just a little sidebar in Michigan. The reason he's there is after South Carolina Saturday, we have the Michigan primary next week, where if you want to be amused, go to the MIGOP.com website, because the Michigan party is having a Banana Republic party.

fight where they have a renegade nutcase election denier chairwoman, Christina Caramo, who they threw out the central committee to put in kind of a, she won't go away. She won't go away. And she still controls the website and the Twitter feed.

So she's doing bunker broadcasts. And to make it even worse, another issue for Haley after Saturday. Remember, when we lost South Carolina in 2000 with McCain, three days later we bounced into Michigan and won. The Michigan thing is fixed. There's going to be a meaningless primary in a week. And then a few days later on March 2nd they do a caucus, just like Nevada did, which will all be Trump. So anyway, it is...

It is right down the looking glass, but check out that website. You'll learn all about fluoridated water and how Beyonce is controlled by Satan. So you mentioned the sneaker thing in the midst, and I mentioned it earlier, in the midst of...

in Ukraine and the murder of Navalny. Trump went to the sneaker con in Philly to sell shoes. And the crowd hated him, which was great. I love you too. Wow. A lot of emotion. There's a lot of emotion in this. Thank you. Thank you. So the really nice thing is we have lines and I want to thank Chase and I want to thank Alan.

We have lines going all around the block. They're going all around this block. They've never seen anything like this one. You know, somebody ought to tell him those sneakers are not prison spec. He won't even be able to wear them. They're LeMay. They're to put on and run and escape when you think the...

The G is coming. It's really unbelievable. But there you have it, Steve. He's the frontrunner. I would have loved to be the staffer, like, you know, when he says, you know, let's do the sneaker thing. That's going to go well. I took $800,000 and I need it. Yeah. All right, we're going to take a minute to pay the bills, and we'll be right back. It's Listener Made.

Okay, hackaroos, if you have a question for us, you've got two ways now. We're modernizing. Two ways to send it in. One, of course, our Gmail address, hacksontap at gmail.com, hacksontap at gmail.com. Or we have an impossible-to-remember phone line, and you can leave us a voicemail. And if it's a good question, we're going to play it on the air. Just remember the rule. We are the windbags around here, so please keep it to like 25 seconds.

And make sure you give us your name so we can introduce you properly. Now, because nobody can remember the phone number, including me, here it is. 773-389-4471. I'll repeat it because who can remember that? 773-389-4471.

Murphy, Tyler has been sitting home anxiously, hoping that you will answer his question. And now his dreams have come true. Yeah.

Hey Axe, Tyler from Stratton, PA here. This might be the political idealist to me rather than a realistic possibility, but would it be an effective strategy for Joe Biden to reach across the aisle to some centrist GOP members such as Mitt Romney to be Secretary of State and to fill other cabinet positions such as to oversee the border crisis? Love the show. Thanks, guys. Well, thank you, Tyler. Thank you for listening. And I wouldn't be surprised

It's a time-honored tradition that Republicans, particularly those who might be a little out of favor with the dogma of the party at a given moment, are asked to join the president's cabinet in a not-so-political job like sex state or something like that. Remember Chuck Hagel was secretary of defense. But that's all second-term stuff. Biden's got a really tough political choice to make.

When he got elected and they were cowed by their left ideologically into a bunch of stuff, many of the suburban Republicans who supported him over Trump felt alienated ideologically.

So now what do you do in the Biden reelect? Do you try to tilt center again where Biden is pretty comfortable and try to attract the voters that way? Or how do you put out the fire you've got on the left, on the campuses? Some of the independent candidates might run who could be a threat to him. So it's hard to do both. It's hard to both attract the more centrist suburban Republicans who are falling off Trump and get them to like Biden enough not to hold their nose and go waste their vote in some ridiculous third-party thing.

Or what do you do about the kids on campus who are at least in the data? Young voters not showing a lot of interest in Biden, though I think he has a path to get them back without too much pandering. So that's it. It's going to be what Joe Biden do we get as we close the election here.

In the end, Trump's toxicity will do a lot of that work. But Biden's got to, I think, send some pretty clear ideological signals to those Republicans to peel them off. It's not about being endorsed by a single candidate or something like that. So, Steve, you being a not just a historian, but a bookseller, I think you're

You are the perfect person to answer Nathan's question when he asks, what person in history or fiction reminds you of Trump more than anyone else? Oh, this is a no-brainer. This is a no-brainer. It's both a character, both in fiction and nonfiction, would have to be Willie Stark.

who is in Robert Penn Warren's 1946 classic, All the King's Men. Yeah. Willie Stark based on Huey Long. Yes. For sale at TheodoresBooks.com, if I can get that shameless plug in. TheodoresBooks.com. No, that's great. I'll go international and just quickly throw in Juan Peron.

Look it up, kids. All right. Now we have a question for Mr. Axelrod here, also by voicemail. So congratulations, Jake, on your ability to write down a complicated number. Let's hear it. Hey, Hacks. I absolutely love your show. And Mike Murphy, I think you're one of the funniest people in podcasting. My question is this. Could you explain the disconnect between the overperformance of Democrats in special elections versus Biden's poll numbers?

It seems to me Biden would be dragging his folks down. Thanks a lot, guys. Bye. What a great question. This guy's a genius, Jake. Thank you for your kind words. Luckily, you haven't listened to a lot of podcasts because there are a lot of really funny people. But thank you. That's very sweet. All right. This is a great question. Speaking of over performances. But anyway, let me entertain Jake's question.

Well, I mean, some of it is a function of who participates in special elections and off-year elections. And it tends to be groups that favor Democrats, more educated, highly educated voters and so on who pay more attention.

attention to, uh, those races, but that doesn't explain what has been a virtual sweep by Democrats across the country, uh, over the last year or two, you know, going back to the midterm elections when Democrats overperformed. And I do think the problem in Mike Murphy is not just funny, but wise. And he has suggested, uh, throughout, uh, that the Republican party, uh,

is plagued by primaryitis, that they play to the base, they play to the extremes. And when they get to general elections, including special elections, those swing voters who do participate are repulsed by what they see as a move to the far right by the Republican Party.

Biden's poll numbers are, as Steve suggests right now, a referendum.

Uh, very few presidents can win, uh, referendums and, uh, Biden surely can't given the environment and given the mood of the country and so on. And as all, all of us have suggested in this podcast, he has to throw this into a very comparative realm. And I do think some of the elements that have helped Democrats win in special elections, uh, over the last year, uh,

are going to be at play in the presidential race because I do think Americans do not want an extreme government. And I further think, and just if I can close on this, this really is going to be a question of what kind of country do we want to be

And do we want and what kind of future do we want to build? Biden may be old, but he's been working on a project of building a better future, not just for some people, but for all people. And he's done some things that will have lasting impact. Trump is consumed by his own past. And.

And has taken this hodgepodge of crazy quilt positions that would take us back and not forward. And I think they've got to get this in that comparative frame and stay there relentlessly and seize every opportunity they can to keep it there. And I do think some of the effect that you're seeing in these races is going to spill over into both the presidential race and the congressional races next year. I don't know if you guys have any thoughts.

quotas on that. No, I'm typing out an invoice to the DNC. That was well said. We can get a spot. But no, I agree totally. If it's the referendum race he loses, they got to take the burrs off him a little bit. There's work to do there, or I don't think they can hoist it off referendum, but they've got to push it to a comparative thing with Biden

Clear contrast. Motive to whose side? Trump's on Trump's side. There is an absolute lane for Biden. Again, putting aside the hand rigging, when you when you when you really dig into an analysis in these battleground states, the shift of several thousand undecided voters to Biden in those media markets in those states is.

is favorable to him. He wins those states if he can shift those voters. And if they're talking about that the economy seems to be a little better and they don't want a nutcase repeating presidency that was so chaotic, Biden will win. If they are talking about Biden's age and they don't feel the economy, then Biden loses. All right. Well,

Before we go, guys, I just wanted to play something that we don't normally play clips in other languages here. But I want to play a clip that Alexei Navalny made

uh, recorded, uh, as part of a documentary Navalny, I think it won an Academy award that was been repeated on max and I highly recommend it. But the interviewer asked him if he were to be killed, what message would he leave for Russians? Which was a tough question. And one that he had first, uh, uh, shied away from, uh, but he, uh, but, but then he did, uh,

All that is needed to celebrate evil is the inaction of good people.

What he said, Murphy, you speak Russian. We're talking many years ago. So I got a little of it, but you better do the translation or I'll do the gorilla dances at midnight or something and screw it up. But it basically was the classic quote, all it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.

And he said, do not be inactive. It was at the end of a really inspiring piece in which he said, if I am killed, it means that we are powerful. It means that they are scared and that you need to pick up the cudgel. I said, everyone who listens to this podcast, that that's a lesson that applies to all of us, that democracy is not a gift. It's a project. Yeah. Politics is about choosing.

You know, we're not asking some of these politicians to land on Anzio Beach, by the way. Think about your choices. Look what he did. Right now, by the way, they're on like Miami Beach instead of in Congress dealing with Ukraine, which is something the Speaker of the House should explain. But that's for another program. But anyway, our thoughts are with the Navalny family, his valiant wife.

has picked up the torch and is uh in her grief promising to lead the movement for democracy in russia forward and uh our our prayers are with her and her family and uh

You guys, it's always great to be with you. Steve, you're a great hack. You're one of the great hacks. My mother would be so proud. Thank you for coming on. We always love it when you straighten us out. All right, X, see you later. Okay, thanks, everybody. Bye.