'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
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And welcome to House of R, a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. It is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only back to our favorite Freeport, Red Hook, but also back into the House of R. Joining me today, reminding me that there's nothing in this world a good cup of coffee can't fix, it's my favorite punisher, Joanna Robinson. Hi, I'm Joanna Robinson, and she didn't say it, but that's Mallory Rubin. You didn't

name for the first time ever. Hello. So tired. It's a very special day. It's a very special day. We're here to crunch. Okay, here's a quick question for you. Yeah. As Frank Castle is crunching on some, I don't know, pain relievers, one assumes. Yeah. I don't like chewing pills, as you know, from our White Lotus conversations. Worrying about

Tim Ratliff and his dry pill swallowing. I was indeed. I was like, I retract every negative thing I said about Tim Ratliff because at least he was swallowing and not fucking crunching a pill. Anyway, is this what people come for on a Daredevil pod? Good question. Who's to say? I don't stand with Frank Castle on the pill chewing, but I do stand with him on the deep and abiding love for a good cup of coffee. That's true. We are here, in case you can't tell, to talk about the finale of Daredevil Born Again Season 1. But...

Before we try to figure out whether they are, in fact, calling Matt Nightgown Man now, some quick programming reminders. Going to do these in two little buckets because we're heading into a big stretch where we've got Last of Us and Andor happening at the same time. Yes. Here's the slate. Going to run through it very quickly. House of R deep dives for The Last of Us, Mondays. Mondays, baby. Midnight boys, pew, pew. We'll be potting in instant reaction fashion to The Last of Us on Monday.

Sunday night, Monday, we'll see. Early in the week, top of the week. Nice. The Watch, we'll be checking in on Mondays.

On the Prestige TV podcast, Joe and Rob will be checking in on Wednesday nights, Pacific time, Thursday mornings if you're on the East Coast. And Button Mash, Ben and Daniel will be checking in with a gamer's guide on Thursdays. We will have coverage across the ringer.com. What a great website. It is a full court press. We love The Last of Us. We can't wait to cover the rest of the season. Check out our episode one pods if you haven't yet. Those are all waiting for you already on the Fates.

So good. I'm so pleased that we're back in The Last of Us territory. And I had such a good time recording The Last of Us episode one with you. Same. The best. I'm like despondent. We only have six left. I know. But also thrilled we have six more to talk about. And then at the same time, we will.

at long last, be diving back into Andor because season two of Andor starts next week. Three episodes of Andor are going to be airing every week and we will be there to cover them. Here at the House of R, we will be doing our Andor deep dives and they will be deep. I mean, they will be deep. How deep? Who can say? But Tony Gilroy knows. Tony Gilroy knows.

On Thursday evenings, most likely, is when those will be hitting your feeds. And the Midnight Boys, pew pew, will be checking in on Andor on Wednesdays. Obviously, Chris and Andy will be talking about their favorite piece of Star Wars over on The Watch as well. What a great time to be us. Jo, we're also only two weeks away from Thunderbolts. Thrilling. The most important film of the year, Thunderbolts? Exactly. Cool. Just so. Cool story. Just so.

Let me ask you a quick question. How can the people follow along? Oh my God. What a fantastic question. First of all, you can watch us by the way, on YouTube, uh, on the regular channel. You can watch us on Spotify inside of the Spotify app. You just pull up the podcast and there's our little faces talking about content. It's great time. Uh, so in order to do that, it would be a good idea. Follow, follow the pod on Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts, subscribe to the YouTube channel. Love that. Uh,

Follow us on social. That's a good idea. Jomie does a great job, as always, on all the social channels. You can see some unhinged, out-of-contact clips of us talking about mushrooms or whatever the case may be. So that's all great. Also, you can always email us, hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com. We have some fun Daredevil emails this week. We also are getting a lot of The Last of Us emails from you. Thank you so much. But get ready to talk to us about Andor as well. What a time for us on this feed. So, yeah, there you go.

delightful stuff. Here's the other thing. It's the Friendly Neighborhood spoiler warning. We're talking about the finale. We're talking about the entire season of Daredevil Born Again. If it happened in the Netflix Daredevilverse, it could come up today. If it's ever happened in the MCU, it could come up today. If it's ever happened in a comic, it could come up today. That's the Friendly Neighborhood spoiler warning. Yeah, it is. But you know what? We need one more thing. I need you to pass the oat milk. I've never felt more seen. That was great.

Just a great moment. I love it. It me and 95% of Los Angeles drinking oat milk only. Love it. Great stuff. All right, Joe, it is time to pod. And we are going to begin as always with our opening snapshot. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Apple Card is a no fee credit card that gives you daily cash back every day. That's 3% back at Apple and 2% back on every purchase made with Apple Card using Apple Pay. Apply for Apple Card, the wallet app on your iPhone today.

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Episode 9. Straight to hell. I feel like you should say it in your Fisk Vanessa voice. I feel like that's the only way you can say it. Episode 9. Straight to hell. There it is. There it is. Vanessa. Vanessa. Directed, once again, by Aaron Moorhead and Justin Benson. Written by Heather Belson and Dario Scardapane. Runtime?

59 minutes. This checked in at a full chunky hour. Chunky. Robust. Robust. Joe, before we dive in, we're going to be going broadly chronologically through the finale today. Give us your quick thoughts, little table setters here, amuse-bouche of takes on three things. The finale itself. Yeah. The season overall. Yeah. And your feelings, anticipation level, relationship to the impending 2026 release of Daredevil Born Again Season 2. Yeah.

Based on how season one concluded. Yeah, great question. Thank you so much for asking me. Hey, you bet. First and foremost. Straight to hell. Straight to hell. First and foremost. I hate to get ahead of ourselves. This is really the Last of Us thing, but do you remember how when we recorded the Last of Us episode...

two weeks or nine years ago, whatever that was. I was talking about how in the video game, instead of a bear outside of the market, Ellie and Dina see a moose. And I was like, yeah, but you can't really, can you really make a good food pun with moose? Yeah. And a bunch of our listeners wrote in and wrote in with a moose boosh, boosh, a moose boosh. So see, this is why, I mean, there are a lot of reasons why the bad babies are the best.

But that's why. That's why the bad made me do the best. You just said a moose boosh. I was like, I can't wait. I can't wait to share with you a moose boosh. Even though we won't be together again in mere days. I couldn't wait. To talk about Last Dress. I love it. Okay. I love it. Guess what? What? I liked this finale. Yeah, it was great. I liked it. I didn't, like, I think a lot of people liked the last two episodes. I've heard a lot of, I guess-

We're back, baby. I wasn't here last week for the penultimate. Thank you so much to Ben Lindberg and Daniel Chin for filling in. But like, I heard a lot of we're back. Great. This is the era of the new showrunners. These last two episodes, blah, blah. I didn't I wasn't as high on us, despite an excellent turn for my guy, Dex. I wasn't. I've heard.

That you can fix him. I know I can. And now he has a tooth that also needs fixing. And that door that he was standing behind needs fixing. Step one, the dentist. Step two, a window guy. Yeah, a pain guy. I got a glass guy. I bet you do. I believe that. I do. Anyway, so I thought the penultimate was fine, good. I thought this was really good. And I had a great time with it. It doesn't change my...

feeling about the season overall necessarily. I still feel like it was a quite patchy season and if anything it kind of underlines a lot of the problems of the previous episodes because when you have Frank and Karen, your favorite character Karen, show up She might be. And

I know, honestly. All of a sudden there's like actual depth of emotion and connection between the characters. You're like, ah, this is the stuff, Lionel. You know? And so it's like, it just makes, with love and respect to Cherry and Kirsten, it just like makes it feel even more of a failure. And Heather, certainly, that it like never really felt this way with any of those characters. But I really loved that.

the Karen, Frank, and Matt stuff. Give me a love triangle. I'm all about it. I thought the Fisk stuff was good too. And it doesn't change my feelings about season one, but it does make me more excited for season two. So I'm feeling pretty good about it. Before I take it back to you in the studio, Mallory Rubin, can I read... Oh, bug setting? Yeah.

I just love when I see her enter. She's here to claw at my foot for attention. Oh, bug. Sweet bug.

If you see me cringe and flinch, it's because she sunk her little needle nails into me. Okay, so can I read two emails quickly before I get to your take on it? Give us the double car, Steve. We got several emails from people being like, hey, I want to talk about why this season has been working for me. We got a bunch of those at the end of the season. Great stuff. Our listener Ashton wrote in to say,

I think part of why I found the show more enjoyable than some folks is that the first seven episodes kind of felt like working through some of the tougher Daredevil comic arcs. I can never fully forgive Kevin Smith and his Antichrist baby run.

Even when the story didn't make full sense or we had to deal with characters we didn't like, Heather Glenn wasn't all that great in the comics either. It felt like such a gift to be back in Daredevil's world and having scenes like the Frank and Matt conversation gave me glimmers of hope for the future. It doesn't hurt that Charlie Cox positively oozes charm regardless of the quality of writing. So Ashton was pointing out that like in conjunction with this return to Daredevil on TV, Ashton was sort of reading through all the comics again and was just sort of like, you know,

even apache daredevil comic is like a daredevil comic um so i thought that was interesting and then katie katie brought in with like a little bit of a of a critique i do think without question the frank stuff enhanced um this last episode without question yeah um

Did it at time feel like Dario, who, to remind everyone, was the Punisher showrunner, was a little more interested in Frank than he was in Matt in this final episode? Yeah. Maybe. And so Katie says, some moments made this episode not feel like a Daredevil show. I loved all the castle content, but not if it means we're spending too much time away from Matt, which also leads into my final point that this episode felt like a great mid-season episode.

but not a finale. It was like we were brought right to the inflection point of the conflict and then we were given a wall. We're missing a major showdown between Daredevil and Kingpin, but I guess that's more illuminating of the fact that the original creators intended this to be an 18-episode season. So that's a good way to think about season two, this being sort of like

Not in the cynical, Netflix is going to cut Squid Game in half for whatever reasons, but for creative reasons, trying to fix the flow of the season, we do wind up with kind of a half of a season, which is not the end of the world, but you can kind of feel it inside of this episode. So, Mallory, what do you think about any of that? Or what do you think about this episode or this season as a whole? Yeah, I...

I really loved the finale. I liked episode eight quite a bit, and I thought this was even stronger and just a wonderful way to propel us forward into a season two that will be crafted in full by the folks who gave us a strong end to this season. So that's really exciting. You know, they pulled me back in. I'm quite looking forward to it.

Quite looking forward to season two and to the Punisher special. I think to the point in Katie's email, which is totally valid, that it all worked for me so well, I think, because I'm such a sucker for the John Barenthal, Frank Castle performance in general and just will take, like, literally any of it that I can get. But also because, like, we weren't with...

Frank on his own. I mean, frankly, it's an area where I think a lot of the valid critiques of the season, which is just, we never spent time with anybody away from Matt or away from Fisk really. Um,

in this sense because the return of Frank was really oriented through his relationship with Red and through Matt's point of view of Frank and Frank's point of view of Matt. I loved the Frank stuff in this episode. I can't wait to talk about the Frank, Karen, Matt scenes. I just thought it was absolute magic and it gave me that feeling in my chest and my heart that I just absolutely love. I thought it was great. I just was like so happy to carry

I can hear your heartbeat. Yeah. I mean, it's just adrenaline, maybe? Yeah, maybe. Show a deep-rooted love? Who can say? Maybe both. So I loved all of that. I thought that the Fisk stuff in the finale was...

So disturbing in our current world that, you know, you can't help but toast how effective it was. And in general, just really liked the finale and I'm looking forward to season two. I'm with you. I think that the fact that the end of the season was so strong made me more frustrated with the parts of the season that weren't. I do not run Marvel or any studio.

Don't run Disney. So who am I to comment? But the fact that they knew what they were doing originally wasn't working and knew they needed to reset and then found something successful in the reset, but still kind of put out the Frankensteinian cobbled together. We'll save what we can and we'll introduce what we can. You know, I guess there are bottom line reasons to do that. You do sort of wish that.

In a world where reality didn't factor in and certain decisions didn't have to ultimately be made that we could have just really started over and done this a certain way from scratch. But anyway, fun finale. Can't wait to talk about it. Should we dive right in? Let's just do it. Joanna, I would like you to travel through time with me to one year ago. Okay. When Vanessa... Vanessa. Vanessa.

You're a guy. Benjamin Dex Poindexter. Bullseye. We see it. We see Vanessa visit Dex at the psych ward. He is... Boy, he is in a state. He is there serving his time. He is pilled to the gills. He is a shell. Yeah. He is a shell. And, you know, she... This is part of her pitch to him. Like, you can get your mind back. You can get your sense of self back. And she says it with genuine tenderness and empathy in her voice, but she is...

without doubt, there for a mission of her own and a purpose of her own, and Dex is a means. We hear that, just we get this little, like, tossed away line about, you know, the FBI corruption to deem all that. This is

Shout out Agent Nadine. Agent Nadine. Shout out season three of Daredevil. Shout out season three of Daredevil. The source of the Wilson Fisk acquittal and how that could be a pathway to Dex and his freedom as well. One little wrinkle. He's got to agree to kill dumb Benny and foggy for Vanessa. That's the way out. That's the way out. The way he's like, it was so, I mean, I,

Obviously pill addled. Yes. But also just sort of like his sad resignation of like, you want me to kill someone? Like I'm just a killing. That's who I am now. I'm just like a killing machine. I used to have promise. Also, I'm sorry. I just I need to pause and just say.

The tooth escape last week was so good. Like, incredible stuff from my favorite person to ever have existed on television. You love an innovative thinker? He's like a MacGyver. He's like someone who can adapt on the fly? Yeah.

What's he doing with his tooth? Killing people. Great stuff. I mean, he's literally bullseye, so it makes sense. But I'm still astonished by the philosophy he was able to get with that tooth spit. Really astonishing stuff. I agree. It was really affecting to see the sorrow. The way that he said, because when she invokes Foggy's name, he of course remembers. And the way that he said, it's

escape the past, do we? Like this whole fallacy of the idea dating all the way back to his therapy when he was a kid that you could ever really move beyond any sort of perilous or damaging circumstance. That was just so deeply upsetting. And then, of course, you know, we remember season three of Daredevil and the way that

Fisk manipulated Dex in order to bring him under his thrall and into his employ. And the way that Dex then rebelled against Fisk in the, you know, multi-showdown, everybody including Vanessa just sort of standing there in the same room at the end, a climactic brawl like turned on Fisk because of Julie and what he had learned.

While keeping her frozen corpse in the passenger seat of his car, Joe can fix him. It's fine. We all have things to work through. We all have sentimental keepsakes, okay? Indeed, yeah. You collect posters. Dex keeps frozen corpses around. It's fine. You love a Funko Pop. He loves a frozen corpse. I do. The way that he invoked Fisk, like,

Is he a part of this? And Vanessa saying, it's not about him. We're not in touch right now. He's off in another show. You probably haven't watched it. But it's not about him. It's about me. It's about what I need. And the way that Dex said, rightly, like, he's always a part of this, that looming specter of the kingpin. It was a good tonal note to open the episode on.

And I don't want to veer too far from your excellent point that you just made there, but you don't think that they're streaming Echo in the psych ward? It's entirely possible. They're not like, let's make it a binge watch weekend with Echo in the psych ward? No? You know how many streamers do they have? Maybe they got the bundle. Yeah, the Hulu Disney Plus bundle so they can also watch Hawkeye. Some ESPN. Yeah. Great. I was thinking about doing some Hawkeye revisitation, you know, get a little Yelena update in my life. Oh, I love that. We're near Thunderbolts.

That's only like, what, two episodes of Hawkeye? Three? Yeah. Yeah. Mac and cheese based, mostly. Exactly. I'm really just hungry. I want some sriracha on my mac and cheese. Joanna, I'd like you to now travel back through time with me to the present, and I'd like you to join me at Metro General, where Matt Murdock has awoken, as expected, from his gunshot wound. And Heather and Kirsten are there.

the toughest thing ever is about to happen when Heather sees her boyfriend, Matt Murdock, wake. And she goes over and she reaches out and Matt Murdock, who can smell what people have eaten days before. A little honey cake. Honey cake. Who can see them wreathed in fire, who can hear their heartbeats, who knows later in this episode that Buck Cashman is coming for him based on the pattern of his footwear, does not understand

recognize his own girlfriend who he has been having passionate shower sex with for months on end and instead says with the gentlest little yearning, tendril voice, it's the drugs. It's the drugs. Don't worry about it. It's the drugs. It's the drugs, Heather. It's fine.

It's tough. I mean, things weren't going very tremendously well between Heather and Matt anyway, but like, yeah, this is a real tough beat. It was probably over in episode eight when she was like, yeah, you know, Fisk is going to just point out to everyone that vigilantes are dangerous. He's got my vote. I mean, it's definitely over later when she joins his administration, but this probably didn't help. Probably didn't help. Do you think Dr. Heather Glenn will have a large role to play in season two?

Or will she just be like background and cabinet meeting sort of thing? That's a great question. I mean, the rise of Daniel Blake and Buck Cashman as an enforcing duo is

We're not really going to spend much time today talking about that intimidation scene in the middle of the night with the council, but the way that they work with each other. I mean, that could be season two. When we do this closing montage and everyone's in their, like, I don't know, character poster poses or whatever, the golden light bathing your guy, Daniel Blake, was just truly astounding. Really astonishing stuff. He went from...

enthusiastic dipshit who tells his boss he was high on ketamine and accidentally let spilled city secrets to genuinely intimidating mini boss with a quickness. That being said, I liked the BB development in last week's episode. Great to know that. Overdue. Yeah. Good to know. Glad it happened. Overdue. Thanks, journalism.

Matt gets a little sip of water and then he's immediately ready to dive into detective mode. Kirsten and Heather both have strong reactions to this, but there is a distinction, right? When Matt is running through his questions, is Dex still at large? Okay, Vanessa ordered the hit. Foggy knew he had to win. Oh, Melvinese. Kirsten mentions the motion to dismiss. Kirsten is like, Matt, I'm worried. Later she'll say, I'm really glad you're okay, but we got to have a major talk when you get through this.

but she at least engages. She gives him some information. Heather's response to this is just, she's beside herself. She goes to the chair in the corner. She puts her face in her hand. She's sighing deeply. She is not aligned with Matt and she is clocking that now in a way that is no longer something either of them can ignore. And I guess to their credit, they both just say it pretty plainly to each other. Matt tells her like, I'm sorry that you don't believe me,

But this is true. And then she appears to just quiet quit her relationship with Matt Murdock. She's like, maybe... She's like, I'll see you later. I'll see you later. I'm going to go join the mayor's administration. My hope for Heather... Yes. Who sucks and has sucked and, like, whatever. My hopes aren't high. But my hope had been last week when she, like, collapsed to the ground next to Matt. Yeah. And saw Fisk just...

I fucking tail it out of there. No one gave a shit about Matt Murdock and no one gave a shit about her. Yeah. That she would be like, huh?

I wonder who the hero in this scenario is. Is it the guy who dove in front of a bullet for someone? Or is it the guy who just ran like shrieking from the room? But no, Heather, Heather likes power. It seems to me. I don't know. And I'm interested. I mean, you know what? I am a little interested in Heather's villain era. So if that's, that's what Heather wants to lean into in season two, I'm here for it. Okay.

A pro Heather take at the end of the season. I mean, great stuff. Well, we were talking about this. Okay. Yeah. You mentioned, you mentioned earlier this, this, the stuff with Fisk at the end throughout really is, is, has been such a, a,

era reflective story. And it's funny because on the Prestige pod, Rob and I were covering Your Friends and Neighbors and Jon Hamm is out there trying to say that Your Friends and Neighbors is like the show for the time. And I'm like, I don't know about that. I was like, but you know, like Daredevil

The Last of Us and or like the genre shows are really coming through and like a show for our times storytelling. The the ringer verse content, the house of our content is really like a mirror reflective time. So, yeah. Upsetting given the text of all of those shows that we just mentioned. It's fine. Everything's fine. You know. Anyway. Okay. So.

Fisk and Vanessa. They're back, baby. They're back. Can I read this great email we got from Brandon? I'd love it. Who says, I do like how another rabbit in a snowstorm was made with Matt's blood all over Wilson and his white suit. Yeah. Any thoughts or feelings about that? I think that was why I was totally content to see the white suit return, you know, and it's a black tie ball. You're hoping one and done.

Yes, I am dismayed, as you surely anticipated I would be, that we are back in full two. Of course, comics accurate.

Kingpin in the white suit era. Same. I am an enthusiast of the charcoal suit Kingpin television persona and always have been. So that is upsetting. But yes, the symbolic resonance of that was certainly delightful. We have a lot of ties to the past with Wilson and Vanessa. Vanessa. In the season overall and in these last couple episodes because this moment, you know, their version of like the hospital debrief is...

Vanessa taking a drink to steady herself, saying she's shaken, trying to muster the courage to tell Wilson after they had this breakthrough, we've kind of said it all to each other. Oh, I kept one more thing from you. And that thing is I violated your season three finale pledge where you told Matt Murdock you'd never harm Foggy Nelson or Karen Page. And then you went to the diner with him this season and said, I kept my promise. It wasn't me. Uh,

Fisk is like, the only thing I care about is that you're okay. And by the way, we're a long way from where we were a few episodes ago when we were distancing ourselves for that. Fisk is like- We had to. Tried to. We're kingpin and we're queenpin again. Let's own it. Fisk is like, I read all your journals, Shauna. I know what you did. And it's fine. I love you anyway.

sure, you only told me 10% of the truth. It's fine. How do you feel about this Red Hook payoff? You know, all season they've been seeding this, you know, we were clocking the Red Hook mentions from the jump. How do you feel like this revelation that Red Hook is this

you know, legal haven, tax haven, whatever, for Vanessa to run her money laundering, her art laundering schemes through. So it's interesting in terms of like, you know, thinking back to our double premiere pod where we observed all of the art around her. And it's not just like, oh, you are and always have been a gallery curator, an art enthusiast. A patron. No, you are actually, this is tactical. Yeah.

It was nice to see how all of those little strands of Red Hook fit together here. This is my Daredevil born-again version of me saying repeatedly, as we talked about DNA on Yellow Jackets, I am not a scientist. I'm not a legal expert. So I guess my question on this was like, wait, it's not like, wait, does nobody know this? I guess I'm confused by that. This idea that foggy revealing that Red Hook is a Freeport

would she the way that vanessa explains it to dex is like cast an unwanted light on her business right so clearly she thinks this is not something that she wants brought to the fore but my i guess my question is like who is this a secret from maybe other crime lords but like presumably governments and legal bodies but it feels like it feels like it was lost a time similar to like

Like Sam stumbling upon lore in a dusty library somewhere. Just sort of like, yeah, in an obscure document, here's this Freeport information that Vanessa also stumbled across. But so did Foggy. The other question is, and I don't know that I know the answer to this, and maybe they said it in the season and I forgot, but like the Benny and the truck robbery, like was that more directly related to the crime? So it's like, it's not just...

oh, this is a free port, that knowledge, but that knowledge is directly related to a case that is connected to Vanessa's criminal doings. Yeah, I think so, given that we then later saw the other truck jacking and that connected to the families all under this, yeah, the umbrella of crime that they're seeking to control. Be interested to see how, you know, I liked the way Matt declared it when he and Heather, when he, I just did the opposite thing, when he and Karen are piecing it all together at the end, like they're trying to

the Fisks are trying to build and control their own city state. Um, and the way that Fisk says it here, it's like, you've been moving millions. We can move billions. Like I'm the mayor now. And you know, he put it, he put it to Vanessa. He said, I ran to save the city, but opportunities present themselves like this idea of justifying his descent back into his true self. Uh,

I also love the diner scene at the beginning of the season, and so many of those ideas came back for both Matt and Fisk here, right? Yeah.

Yeah, sorry. I was just really good and quickly say that I always love to note, drilled into me by my English teacher in high school, when people use passive voice. Yes. For him to say opportunities present themselves removes his own agency from this. It's just sort of like. I can't help but act. This just comes to me. I'm just here in a suit. I don't know, you know, and then the opportunities present themselves. So, yeah. Sheila just brought me this tape about Gallo. I definitely didn't want to be committing her into it. I know. It's a tough one. Sheila.

Sheila. It's a tough one. She's like crying and looking guilt. I'm like, spare me your fucking tears, Sheila. If you're going to sell out, sell out. Oh my God. I know. Yeah. It's a, it's very, very painful. That whole, that whole plot line and sequence is just incredibly dismaying. When, when Fisk said to Matt at the beginning of the season,

Let's say I followed a road less traveled and at its end I found a new man. And then when he's talking to Matt about himself, like, I love a man who rises above his nature. Good luck with that, Murdoch. You know, we always love talking about whether it's Frank and Matt or Fisk and Matt, like how these characters relate to each other or differ from each other in those dark mirrors. Like this idea that not only...

Was this obviously always going to prove to be a lie and just a delaying of the rise of the inevitable true self and true nature that Fisk has always simultaneously feared that I'm not a monster moment from season one with Fisk and Vanessa that we love, but that he was always going to use these holes of power to...

channel and heighten his present tendencies. I think him saying to Vanessa, I ran to save the city is just like the most self-delusional thing ever. I love New York. It was never about that for you, ever. And...

you can tell yourself a pretty lie and Matt, you know, Matt tells himself pretty lies all the time. So, you know, that's fine. But like, it was always about power and it's also always about like your father's shadow, your father's thoughts and feelings around what it meant to truly be in power is to be in government, all of that sort of stuff. So,

Yeah, at least there's a little bit more self-awareness inside of Fisk here at the end when he's like descended to hell with me and cheers with me over a plate of, you know, pasta, etc. Like that's this. I am a carb guy. I want to be a carb guy. And I support that for you, Wilson Fisk.

What did you think? He's unfolding this Safer Streets initiative, you know, first in a smaller room with his trusted advisors and the not-so-trusted advisors that he is attempting to smoke out and sauce out, and then eventually, of course, to the city at large. The performance, like, in this scene, it...

It was hysterical, not in a ha-ha funny, but in a uncontrollable mania. Fervor. Yes. As she's talking about no body cams, no due process, no warrant, lethal force. I encourage it once the bridge is closed, the tunnel's closed. He's going to bring in a con ed guy to force a blackout of the city that he will then pretend was someone else's sabotage.

He is relishing putting the city that, to your point from a minute ago, he is claiming to try to protect and save and nurture into an active state of harm so that he can then fix the problem that he caused. And this is, again, a textbook and a playbook that in our current moment in time, this is just so upsetting to watch. And I thought with everything, with both Sheila and Gala, you have these two different people

like versions of somebody who seemed to be an opponent inside, right? Sheila is more like a tribe. I tried to say all these things to you. I tried to point these things out the way that she says to him later when she briefly thinks he's walking it back. Like, well, that's totally fair. Oh, sometimes our response can be like a worse sin than the original offense itself.

but then succumbs and perpetuates the corruption and rot. Very human, and I'm really glad that it's represented here, that we have not just the Bucks and the Daniels, but the Sheilas who compromise. Self-preservation. Like the member of the task force, Luke, who later says to Gallo, like, I'm just trying to survive. And like, you know, thinking about, I know this is not a political podcast, but like,

Going back to last week's episode, in the kitchens of the gala, when a guy gets his hand put in the hot oil of the fryer and gallo, it's so disturbing now and in fiction to see people just barrel through the...

the reprehensible behavior without, while even someone is shouting to them, these are the consequences. And they're like, what fucking consequences? And that's like, that's how I feel every single time I open another like New York Times headlines and they're like, the Trump administration has decided to defy the courts. It's like, just like what consequences? Like, and how can you stop me? How can you stop me if I don't believe in the

rules we've established as a society. And this is what this Fisk administration is just sort of like, what rules? Right. What consequences? You know? Yeah. And like, it's, I mean, we hear from Matt at the end of this episode, you know, the Matt Murdock daredevil, the man without fear invoking that kind of language for the city, the city without fear. Right. Well, the oppositional force of the Fisk administration as a tyrant without fear. Right.

An administration without fear. Totally. They're not fearing that any challenge will ultimately do anything but crumble, either because of the desire to survive, self-preservation, like what we see from Sheila, or because Fisk believes that he will prove stronger, that he will either be able to use sheer force or cunning or money or any other lever of power to remove an obstacle from his way. So...

But saying to Sheila, like using Sheila to eliminate Gallo, these two obstacles in different forms is like from his perspective, from Fisk's perspective, just perfect poetic justice in all respects. Like to say to her, well, you know, in business there's always a tipping point. And he's like theoretically talking about the city and the state of play right now. But he's, of course, saying to her, like, this is a tipping point for you. Here's the test. Are you going to pass or are you going to fail? Yeah.

Put your ear to the ground. Are you going into a cage? Or are you going to put someone else in a cage? Or not even a cage for me to smash their head like Gallagher smashes a watermelon. Were you ever expecting to go full Red Viper on Disney Plus?

No, though I will say the popping of the head, of course, is disturbing and distressing and upsetting and all that sort of stuff. But there were also moments in Frank's violent rampages. There's like one giant gout of blood that comes out of someone's groin region that I was just like, what?

Yeah. Disney. Okay. Some real like waterfalls of blood from neck and head areas as well. Star-struck stuff. Very, very, very, very, very violent. But it was like the groin geyser that I was like, wow, wow, wow. Here we are. Okay. Yeah. Groin geyser. I didn't do it. Frank did it. Not me. I just named it. You just named it. You just described it. You're just podcasting.

Opportunities present themselves. What can I say? Oh, God. Joe. Yeah. It's not just Gallo. It's not just Sheila in the stretches, but Cashman. Fisk is like, listen, I don't agree. I don't think that it's optically challenging that Matt Murdock saved me. I think it's great news because a dead hero

The lawyer of Hell's Kitchen. How dare he invoke Hell's Kitchen here in this finale when we have spent nary a second there. Frankly outrageous. Better than a live vigilante. He's sending Buck gift bag, teddy bear. Syringe. Syringe.

Did you think of our beloved Misty Quigley, 00 Quigley? I mean, anytime we see somebody wielding a potentially lethal syringe, I now find it impossible in a yellow jacket to not think of Misty. I thought he uncapped that syringe way too early. In the hallway? Yeah. Not even in the room? Okay. Yeah, I agree. It would have been so easy. I mean, Matt, you know, spends much of his life

processing not wanting to kill people, including in this episode. So he would not have done this. But, you know, if it had been like Frank Castle at the end of that door, you walk in and open the door, you're getting into the neck, man. Yellow Jacket season two. Okay. So listen, our listener Patrick wrote in to say, can we talk about how over the course of nine episodes, no one in New York, a city notoriously not lacking for asshole citizens, love and respect New York, just spend a great week there. I didn't write this. Patrick did. Okay.

Called out or questioned that a posh British man is walking around calling himself Buck. There's no world in which this man has fellow Britons calling him Buck. It's such a weird adaptive choice to turn the comics character into a British dandy. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. All right, Patrick, welcome to a segment I'm calling Let's Rename Buck Cashman. And I would like to float to you, Mal and Ruben, a few options. Okay, you ready? Yeah. I mean, we're keeping Cashman even though the Brits don't really even say Cash, but that's okay. Okay.

Quidman? Quid Cashman. Mm-hmm. No. Pound Cashman. Okay. Farthing Cashman. Farthing Cashman's good, yeah. Hapenny Cashman. Tenor Cashman. Yeah. Tenor I like. Sixpence Cashman. Yeah. And if you want to go a little antiquated and make it sound like a more normal name, you could go Bob Cashman. Yeah. I don't mind that. I like...

Pound. You like Pound Cashman. I like Pound Cashman. Because it sounds like an adult entertainment. Because it transitions us nicely in positions as well for Daredevil Born Again After Dark, which is really what I'm hoping season two will be. Steve has suggested Cash Poundman. Cash Poundman is also very good and fits in our new spinoff. Cash Poundman.

Okay. With love and respect to Farthing Cashman, who lives in my heart forever, it's going to have to be Cash Poundman going forward. And I'm for it. Cash Poundman it is. Thanks, Patrick. All right. Wow. Great stuff. Great stuff. Chicka Cherry Cola didn't really last, but Cash Poundman might. Joanna, it's time for the Punisher to return. Again. Matt.

Here in Pound Cashman's little pitter-patter in the halls. Cash Poundman. Cash Poundman escapes the hospital, makes his way, hospital gown still on, this will become important, back to his apartment where he senses that Frank Castle is waiting for him. And they share just a vintage little exchange, high comedy, love the repartee between these two always. Frank says...

You know you're a wall-to-wall asshole. Power goes out. You got nothing to make a goddamn pot of coffee in this house. To which Matt replies, well, not everyone lives in a fallout shelter, Frank. Is that a new costume? What do they call you now? Nightgown man? What about you? After shaving a haircut? That all for me? No, it's not, Matt. It's for Karen. Karen! Cut the beard and the long hair. He doesn't know. He doesn't know what it does to people. Okay. Okay.

Someone who goes by at Radar Senses on Twitter with an excellent screen grab of Matt walking down the hallway in his Oswald gown.

wrote, do we think Matt walked or parkoured all the way home from the hostel with his ass hanging out? And then someone who goes by at even Derek said, that's Hell's Kitchen's ass. And I just want to applaud that's Hell's Kitchen's ass from Evan, probably even Derek on Twitter. When Matt got up to suit up later and Frank said, you're not going to do it with your ass hanging out and Matt gave him the finger in the running for my favorite moment of the season. Just sensational. Yeah.

How do you think Matt got home? It's a great question. It's a great question. I mean, grab a robe. Don't they have robes like thin blue robes at the hospital? Something like that. You know, maybe just like title or not. There's a blackout. Everybody's in a panic. The looting's about to begin. Yeah. Scrubs would have been good. Steal some scrubs from Dr. Whitaker over on the

pit. He's always going through scrubs. That's a pit reference. Okay. I can't wait to watch the pit. I still haven't started. I'm really excited to dive in. Because then you can listen to your favorite podcast to watch and their incredible interview with Noah Wiley. Oh my God. What a get. He was at the office. Can't believe I missed it.

I mean, speaking of a beard and some hair. No. Noah Wiley. Okay. My goodness. Robbie. Dr. Robbie. Bad baby. Right? Dr. Robbie Rabinovich. You're going to really love him. Mallory Rabinovich. Wow. I know. That was his last name. It's Rabinovich. Oh, my goodness. Okay. That's... I'll be amending my weekend plans. Great. Fuck you, Andor Rewatch. I would never say that. No. No, no, no. Of course not.

Joe, Matt says to Franklin, I thought this wasn't your fight, right? That's where we left it when we last gathered in your fallout shelter and you threw a mug of water at me. In that weird scene that they... Where do you think that scene would have gone? If they originally shot it to show up elsewhere, where was it showing up? That's a great question. Like in last week's episode? Yeah.

Maybe. Maybe? I don't know. Maybe, yeah. Or like the one before. Yeah. So give Frank an episode to shave and get a haircut. Slap on some episodes. So that he's ready for Karen. Yeah. Frank's still not sure, right? Even inside of this episode, he's going to go on a little journey with this with what his decisions and steps are going to be.

But he says, I made a promise. I made a promise that I'd get you out alive. That's because of Karen, as we will soon find out. Absolutely wonderful stuff. And then it's time for that really horrifying battle that we described. All of the blood, all of the violence. Frank's like, fan full of shitbags if they come up here.

I'm not playing patty cake with these fanboys. And this is, as always, the eternal debate between Frank and Matt. Frank has one approach, and it's a lethal approach, and Matt does not want that and implores him multiple times in this conflict. Can I say? Not to do it. How much I hate when this happens. So, like,

We have the fight. Yeah. I don't mean to yada yada you through this. We can go blow by blow. But like Cole is hanging out pin wrist pin to the wall. They find the bullet the casing with the Punisher. He's the one who killed Hector.

but Matt's like, we're not killing him. That's not who I am. It's not happening. There's like nine other dead bodies in the room. And I really hate it when like a bunch of people have died and we're like, no, but Matt's like, I'm holding the line at the one who we identify as being the worst. He's the one I'm going to make sure we don't kill. I really hate that. I mean, it kind of makes the same point, right? When he like turns to the other guy and fires, it's like, what about him? Yeah. God. Um,

I have a question. Yeah. And you're much more of a Frank Castle connoisseur than I am. Did he always grunt like that in his fight scenes in other appearances? I think he's been a gravelly grunter at his core for some time. I will say he was taking a lot of close range. I mean, later with the task force, they say non-lethals. But still, he's taking kind of concussive level force off of his...

torso and you know he gets a pretty gnarly neck wound in this stretch but um almost exerting himself cash powman territory the like the grunt sounds that were coming out of this is the american gigolo great i mean shout out showtime shout out the show that literally only you and bill watched but we did but two people watched it and it was awesome

And it was us. Anything else about the Cole-Hector reveal or the arguing between Matt and Frank or the violence of this exchange before the grenade comes in to blow up our least favorite apartment? Here's to new love.

See you never. Matt Murdock in season two. Bye, Heather. Bye, apartment. Let's go back to Hell's Kitchen. You know what did make me sad? What? Thinking about this, though? The little foggy card. Don't worry. He had it in his daredevil costume pocket. Was it in the hospital gown? Was it in the crack of his ass? He grabbed it. He grabbed it on his way up to the crack. Okay. He grabbed it on his way up to the roof.

Always so many places to keep it. I don't know.

Oh, God. Our listener Dave says, long time listener, big fan. Thanks, Dave. He says, I was watching the Daredevil finale and saw a great subtitle while Frank was doing what Frank does. Disney Plus gave us, quote, flesh squelching and immediately made me think of your recurring Netflix subtitles. But Dave was demanding we bring back the Netflix subtitle segment back. I do miss those. Those are fun. The Last of Us is a great time to bring it back. So it's a great call, Dave. Yes.

Perhaps you will hear it soon from us. But yes, flesh squelching. Squelching. Whatly, let's say. The Frank Castle special. Oh, God. Let's hear it. Molly, let's hear it for your favorite character on television. Let me just be very, very real with you. Yeah. They jump off the balcony. They escape the grenade.

They have a cute little, like, you're an asshole, I know moment. And then a car pulls up. The headlights bathe our screen. And out steps Karen Page. Yeah. They both look at her. And then Matt, as we will later understand, hearing Frank's heartbeat, turns and looks at Frank. And I felt...

So alive and happy and understood watching this. Yeah. Not only because of what you said at the beginning, like I love a love triangle. And there were, when we get to the next, like the next scene at Frank's shelter at his lair, the way that in various moments, Matt and Frank both eat, they each feel like the third wheel. They each feel like the interloper and something very private and like- It's so good. Real with the other two. It's-

But, like, beyond that, which is very charged and powerful and important, everything that happened with Frank and Karen and Matt in this episode took us back to a place of, like, they understand why the characters are important to each other and to us. And it just felt like we were watching the show that we thought we were going to get to watch. And it felt right and good. Yeah. I was so happy. Absolutely. The way that, like...

Karen holds Matt's history. And I understand that like the idea of born again, the idea of Matt pretending to be someone else pretending to be foggy inside of the season conceptually is interesting. Like conceptually is interesting in practice surrounding him with cherry who kind of pretends to know him, you know, and Kirsten, like, yeah, again, I, I hate to like keep drumming this. It just like never worked. Yeah.

The way that just like a look from Karen works. And, you know, a look from Frank works. And so the three of them together, and then to put this love triangle, which is existed and not existed from previous content, you know, like Karen and Frank have this like... There's always been a vibe. A vibe, but it was never like Frank has been yearning for Karen. That's not really, you know, a thing. And then like Matt and Karen were flirting at the beginning of the season, but also like...

famously he didn't go up. Yeah, I mean, like Matt and Karen has been like a, you know, there was Elektra, there was this, that, the other thing. So it's not like they're like the OTP. But to put this dynamic together, to put Frank and Matt, because the Frank and Karen stuff in season two of Daredevil

leaving aside the Punisher show in season two of Daredevil was largely Matt was absent fucking around with Electra. So like, we didn't really get the three of them together to view this, this dynamic. And so the Frank and Matt dark mirror aspect, and then Karen feeling a pull from both of them is great storytelling. And, um,

A love triangle always works. Jesus. Great stuff. Love it. I hope this is very present in season two. It should be the story of season two. Agreed. While we also punch a bunch. This and Dex apartment shopping. Dex apartment. Okay. Your three priorities. Yeah. Number one, love triangle. More I heard your hearts. Number two, Dex love triangle.

My window guy will be there momentarily. She's got a ping guy. She said it. And number three, let's go to church. Let's get ourselves, get our ass to church. We have to. Just hearing Matt at the end of this episode invoke like God and when he thought God was punishing him and then what he thought his purpose was, was like, okay.

okay, it's a nugget. Yeah, and Karen's like, I'll play Father Lantham if you need me to. I'll do it. Karen's like, what can't I do here at the end of the show as it turns out? Yeah, it's incredible. Okay, we do have to expand that list, though. Three's not enough. We have to go, I think, at least to four and probably to five because we have to make room for, come on. I mean, we have to make room for Buck and Blake. Sorry, Pound Cash. Cash Poundman. Struggling with it.

lock into place for me the way I wanted it to. Obviously, we need time for our beautiful, brutal boys there. Not to be confused with the broost boys. You just looped Sean Bennessy in with Pound, Cash Poundman, and Daniel Blake. Born again. And then, you know, we'll want, we'll certainly want some Vanessa and Fisk, of course. But that sounds like a great season two to me. Yeah.

Heather, you're not invited. Sorry. Foggy back from the dead? Do you think that's going to happen? Do you want that to happen? Part of me doesn't. Part of me doesn't. I think on the one hand, it is such cheap storytelling if they say, psych, he's not dead. Yeah. When he was killed for such shock value and all this other stuff like that. On the other hand, it will be a better show if he's in it. So, you know. It's tough.

It's tough. Hopefully we can get him in some form. Oh, flashbacks for sure. I mean, I think they've said that he is in the second season. So, like, flashbacks at the very least. Great. We love a Foggy Matt flashback. Yeah, I mean, Eldon Henson, like...

I love you. I want you to be employed. If they have to, you know I hate a resurrection and a fake out death. I hate it. This is one case where I'm like, it would be better for the show in the end. We'd make our peace. Yeah, you know. Before we can make our way toward everybody really declaring that they need an army. Yeah. We got to clean up.

We got to clean up. We got to stitch up. It means we're going to Frank's bunker. So the first dynamic that we get is Frank over watching Matt and Karen in a mirror. I mean, come on. Stitching up his wind. And this moment between Matt and Karen, just tell me everything that you thought and felt watching this show because it's the first time. As we understand this, the first time they've seen each other or interacted, spoken since that moment of parting.

of Karen passing over the devil horn from ant to finger at Dex's sentencing. Like, they're back together, and how did it feel? Electric, honestly. Electric here, enhanced by, as always, a shirtless Charlie Cox being stitched up by someone. Like, it's a tried and true formula. It will always work. It's like the one real note on the episode that when he said, how's it look? And she said, well, you've been prettier. It's like, no, he hasn't.

But also, not to skip... We won't go there, but the shot of the two of them... Yeah.

sitting in the bar, like, backlit by the light, like, sitting so close and sort of hunched forward at each other. That was also incredibly electric. That was great. Yeah. I loved this. I loved all of this. And I loved the grimy setting of Frank's bunker, the, like, fucking bat shit yarn wall that he's got there. There was a lot of stuff on there. Yeah.

He was using every square inch. I don't know if they, you know, have Michaels in New York City, but I think they're all at a red yard. I think he's got it all covered. So yeah, the griminess of the setting. Again, I think we're getting closer and closer to the grime and the grit and the darkness of the original series that I like. And I felt that in this

in this setup here. Yeah. The blackout was like nice cover to just make the entire episode actually quite dark. When the lights went on the next morning, I was like, fuck. Yeah. Yeah. Let's, let's, okay. Let's say that was intentional. All season we've been in the day and I'm like, where's my Daredevil set at night? And then at the end we get the blackout and then it's like Daredevil set at night again. Great. I love that. That's what it should be. No,

No, I loved this. I thought it was amazing. And then Frank crunches some pills and I got so disturbed by it. Karen kind of moves over to him because he gets up and she's like, how are you doing? Can I take a look? That's when we get the great, nothing in the world like a cup of coffee can't fix. And then he will offer Matt the cup and Mac will say, God, oat milk, just iconic all around wonderful stuff.

But then Matt, like the way the camera looks at Matt in this moment and he's in the background and he's sitting and he's watching them and he'll mention to, he'll bring up to Karen later their heartbeats and what he can clearly feel and sense between them. I thought that look on Karen's face, just that, that the expression as she looked at Frank and smiled was like so charged and powerful. I just loved absolutely every part of this. And then as is often the case with these characters, we move from the state of

real connection and depth of history and affection and longing and active lust into, let me tell you why I'm disappointed in you. And that's like really the great magic of these dynamics. You know, like Matt and Karen start game planning right away. Matt's filling Karen in on what happened. Vanessa, the hit, motion to dismiss. She's like, dude, files and storage. Let me be your eyes. Oh, Karen. Will you be my eyes?

Karen's like, guess what I know my way around? A file box. Guess where I spent 85% of my time in the original Daredevil series? In a file room. So I got this. Great stuff. Absolutely wonderful. But Frank's not going to go with, right? He says the Inspector Gadget bullshit isn't for him.

And Karen just says flat out, I don't believe you. I don't believe that you don't care. And the reply that he makes is specifically about her. I do care, right? You called me, you asked me a favor, and I did it. I thought that was like the closest he had come to just admitting how he feels. She's like, yeah, he's like, hey, Karen, I love you. She's like, yeah, I know you do.

And then she walks out and then he says, be safe. I know, after the door shut. In a way that she can't hear. But Matt Murdock can. I'm just saying. Matt certainly heard that. Love these guys. Love them. So good. Freeport reveal. We already talked about a lot of this. Blake and the council and then the storage locker. On the heart, right? Yeah. Okay.

Matt says, what? Karen says, you sound like you're jealous. Matt says, you know, back at his place, I heard your heartbeats. And she says, God, that's really not fair. You heard his too? His was beating fast too? Was it beating fast for me? Oh, yeah. She's like, it's just a gentleman, I'm sure. You hear mine when I saw you? Yeah? Yeah.

Yeah. Adrenaline, I'm sure. Right? Like, great. Absolutely perfect. Great shit. Yeah. Our listener Molly wrote in with something that I can just assure Molly and anyone listening was already in my notes. Molly wrote, after years of mostly silence, the Karen and Frank shippers on Tumblr were nothing short of jubilant that the other night this image made me cackle. Had to share with you guys due to the Lestat crossover. And it's a screen grab. It's this like, um...

says something, something, something, and Matt, and it's just an image of Lestat from Interview with the Vampire going, Put your hearts dancing! I love that reference! I know!

I got so excited to share with you, but I 100% wrote in my notes, I heard your hearts dancing. This is a real, surrealist at moment for Matt Murdock. Two characters I didn't think had much in common, but here we are. Well, here we are. This is truly a Joe moment. My goodness. This is the crossover you deserve. It is.

Truly. And then we get the avocados at law sign. I found this almost unbearable. It moved me so deeply. It was so beautiful. I liked this moment. It was a little, it was ever so slightly clunky because I feel like it was like, let's explain this for people who didn't watch the original series. Yeah, Karen being like, I never really got it. Never. What? Asked about avocados at law. No, Karen. But yeah.

You know that Nelson v. Murdoch is one of my favorite episodes of the show, and I just got really emotional about it. Just the look on Matt's face. Just the... I don't know, like a moment for him to just...

not be subsumed by his grief, but to smile in reflection and remembrance, like to like know a moment of joy and thinking back on his friend. It felt like maybe the first time in a long time since he had been able to do that. Just think about like the way Karen took his hand and like a little bridge. The like, you know, the card that he's had is like this just really funny,

thin connection or trying to explain who Foggy was to Heather. It's just not the same as being with Karen, who loved Foggy as much as he did. And yeah, it's beautiful. Like you said, they actually know each other. And they had plenty of moments where they didn't know something about each other, and that was the source of great tension. But there are people who have worked through a lot of that and have just such a depth of history and shared experience. It's like it's just...

You know, we talk, I think what you said earlier, I agree with, and we talked about this a lot, obviously at the beginning of the season, I, I, I am still interested in like new relationships and what it means as you go through your life to have to try to build something new with someone else.

But if you're trying to put it in place of this other thing that we cherished, like, it's really a sin, I think. So it was just to have the authentic article here. Boy, did it feel right and good. You know, a little thing that I really loved in this exchange, we think back to that conversation between them on the bench at Dex's sentencing. And the way he can hear Matt's like, I can't believe I didn't look. I didn't, you know, and Karen...

let's move off the hook. She's like, we were all hurting. And, you know, the way that that idea back at the beginning of the season was kind of like,

A cudgel to wield against him. A condemnation. Yeah. I was in pain too and you weren't there for me. Like you weren't the only one who was going through something. But here she reminds him of their shared hurt as a balm. Like a way to say it's okay. We don't all have to be perfect all the time. I thought that really showed the progress of where they were. Yeah. It feels so right to me that like a year. Yeah. It's been a year, right? Like a year of space and silence. You can find...

You know, just empathy. You can just like let go of the resentments and find empathy for the other person. It feels really right to me. And also just like something happens that tests your own.

conviction right like yeah matt was in peril and karen knew she wanted to make sure he was okay like period right and sometimes you need those moments of clarity not that she ever would have not wanted matt to be okay but it's like that was just the driving force i will call frank yeah i will send him to matt and meanwhile heather's like matt's in peril i'm kind of done here

He said the wrong name. Kind of done here. Moment of clarity for Heather as well, you know? Oh, boy. Great stuff. They piece together everything about the Freeport and Red Hook and start to plot their next steps. Meanwhile, Frank is plotting his next steps too because he didn't just say, stay safe and then have a cup of coffee and go about his day. He listened to the walkie-talkie that he stole and heard them talk about the blonde, about Karen, and then he's like, time to go. Time to act. Frank!

And he seeks out the task force, Joe, the fanboys. He heard them talk about the location of where they were going to meet, Rendezvous 1. And he goes, the way that they responded to his appearance, oh, shit, it's actually him, Frank Castle. It's the Punisher. And then we get another just unbelievably violent sequence of Frank killing a ton of people. This is where the real –

groin geyser happen. I just want to make it clear in case people go back and scrub through the footage and they're like, where was it? It was here. Coming up a ramp. Yes. It was come up a ramp. The fanboy was coming down the ramp and then groin geyser. It's a lot. We got an ax to the face here. Did you think of Lottie? I'm always thinking about Lottie. I think you know that.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. So this whole interaction with Powell, I think this is, I think Powell has been a good use. I feel like I understand Powell better than Sherry. Like it's just been a weird season of television. But Powell as this sort of B-string villain and his interaction with Frank makes sense.

It really works for me. Like, it really, really works. This whole thing. This was great. This whole entire ACAB, fuck the cops who, you know, think Punisher, the Punisher logo exemplifies what they do and whatever. You know, it's great for the show to interact with that. Yeah. I totally agree. I thought this scene... So this is like this Powell-Punisher stretch and the...

Fisk and Gallo stretch are intercut with each other. I mean, they were both...

Disturbing in different ways, but I agree. I thought the Powell Punisher scene was really riveting. And the way, like the emotion in Frank's voice as he's saying to them, like, you don't understand the thing that you have co-opted at all. Admire me. You think you know my pain. You think you know my loss. Like, I got to chill from that. It's just, it's fantastic. And then...

He just went into full Sue from Survivor Season 1 final. I do know this reference. I won't fucking piss on you if you were on fire. You got that? That's for you. Interview with vampires for me. Survivor is for you. It's all here. And that's why we're a dream team. So true. Gallo Fisk...

We're just having the mountain and the viper here in a Daredevil episode. What do you want to say about this? The second that Gala was brought to a space covered him. Oh, the second he got in a car. It's a bad sign. The second he got in a car and it wasn't his usual driver. No. The second he said I'm going to Albany tomorrow. I'm like, go now is what I would say to you, my friend. Yeah, exactly. Tough.

My question for you is, how did you read the reaction of people in the room? Yeah. The people who are watching this happen. How did that read to you? So I was eager to discuss this with you as well because I'm curious what...

I'm curious about the logic, like the play from Fisk here, because he's obviously trying to prove a point to everyone, like to Gallo in the final moments. It's you were never a man of the people. You never cared about the rank and file. Up in the high rise drinking your orange wine. Exactly. Oh, my God. Yeah.

Daniel Blake, I was thinking multiple times in this episode, he's got so many, like, Oscob vibes to me. Like, he really belongs in Penguin. I hope he makes his way to Penguin Season 2 somehow. Um...

It seems to me like even though Fisk is trying to show this new personal army, hey, I'm – not only do I care about you, I'm right there literally with you. I want to get my hands as dirty as anyone in order to do this thing, to protect this thing, to build this thing, to tell myself and you that I'm doing all of that. Yeah.

I thought that they seemed very disturbed by what they were witnessing, and, like, perhaps this was a miscalculation on his part. I also think that this is just kind of stupid. Like, it—

There's so many witnesses to this. Yeah, exactly. Like a ritual that's meant to maybe solidify and cement allegiance ends up leaving you vulnerable, and that feels foolish to me. But I guess he's just banking on the fact that the threat – it's not only show them what you're made of, it's – and imply what will happen if they stray, and he's banking on that. I guess so.

This was a very gross television scene. It was disgusting. I got to say, before even the squashing of the head, the sounds, like of the compressing bones. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Same thing happened. It's a no for me. Same thing happened with The Mountain and the Viper. There's a lot of, like, screaming and struggling before the pop, you know? Oh, boy. Oh, boy. Matt and Karen. Yeah. Forging a plan. They go to Red Hook.

crawling with task force. And Karen just implores Matt not to do it. Don't be foolish. It'll be Josie's all over again. I love the way she put this. Like, you'll either die or you will kill. It's not just about the mortal peril you would be in. It's about the thing you might be moved to do to someone else that you don't want to do. I love that they rock up here and, like, for all we, like, joke about the fact that, like, Matt

Heels faster than he should. He literally like just got shot and he like they roll up there and they're like, he's like, it's a lot of pressure on the old shoulder. He's like, she's like, maybe not today. Like you're hurt.

Um, whenever anyone is on a slightly sort of rocky advantage looking and there's like a bunch of troops. Yeah. It's always a Wizard of Oz moment for me. Um, so I was thinking about that, but yeah, it's, um. Did you think that Karen should have said like, we have the high ground and just gone forward or no? Did you think this was the right call? It's over task force. We have the high ground. Yeah.

You underestimate our power. But I liked this invocation. You know, like we get a couple invocations inside of this episode of and similar to like last week's episode when Gallo and Bebe had that conversation about her uncle. This is like a question we had had. We're like, does the show even know that Bebe's uncle was killed by Fisk? And like in these last two episodes, they're answering a lot of these questions of like,

Does the show even know about Agent Nadim? Like all this sort of stuff like that. And so Karen invoking the Thousand Suns, which is such an impactful Daredevil moment. Again, it's just like really tying the tapestry together between the two shows in a way that I really value. So, yeah. I totally agree. And I think this scene also, obviously, in addition to forging that thread to the past, opened a door to the future because Matt's like, you're right.

I'm not going to act for Ashley, but I do believe that we can beat him. I do believe that we can win. We need an army of our own. I felt pretty sure as a trained viewer of the MCU that we would then be seeing any number of characters, but like specifically Luke Cage and or Jessica Jones in the stinger of this episode. And that did not happen. Instead, we got Kirsten.

Well, Anthony, but we got Kirsten and Cherry and Josie and that one cop lady from the bank episode and some other cop, like two other cop ladies. And that's our army right now. And I'm saying like, oh,

Where's Jessica Jones? It's not looking great. Where's Luke Cage? Just still figuring out the details before season two? We're in the paperwork era? Yeah, we're working on the contracts. That's what it felt like, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. Oh, man. Good stuff. Kristen Ritter's like, fuck you, baby, okay? Okay.

I'm not getting back into the leather and knitwear for nothing. I mean, pay me. Totally fair. I am obviously thrilled by what this what this promises, though, which is exactly that, that Luke Cage and Jessica Jones will be back. Will you take Danny Rand?

That is a more complex one. Not you, Danny. All right. That is a more complex one. Joe, we end the episode on these like dueling declarations of intent. We have the Fisk pledge. The lights have gone back on in the morning. He has invited Heather to be his commissioner of mental health. She accepts gladly. Disturbing stuff. Very disappointed in Heather. Yeah.

And then Fisk addresses the- Before he does. Yeah. And she'll say- I rewound it like five times to watch Sheila go, sir, sir. And Daniel physically pushes her back. Sir, sir, excuse me. Do you think she was just going to be like, you should be sitting down rather than standing and leering and leaning? Or was she going to be like, by the way, are we sure this is the right thing to do? She has not had a shower. And so she's like-

Because, sorry, correct me if I'm wrong, she wasn't at the Gallo head popping, right? Mm-mm. Yeah. So when he says, Gallo has left the city, she gets this look on her face like, oh, fuck. So I feel like her excuse me, sir, was going to be like, how did that Gallo thing wrap up? Sir, one moment of your time. I meant to ask. Gallo? Did we send him to the Caymans? How's he doing? Oh, my God. Sheila. Sheila.

Fisk just, you know, we've been talking about it all season. He goes fully into the devil's reign. Like, vigilanteism is outlawed. Institutes martial law. Curfew at 8. Lies about everything that happened the night before, right? Uses the attempt on his life to say the sabotaging of the grid. Gallo abandoned you in your moment of need. All of that. By the way, he claims to love New York City, but curfew at 8 means no more theater in New York. No more nights at the bar? Or shuddering Broadway at 8?

You've gone too far, Wilson Fisk. Good thing for you. You just got that trip in. You came for literally everyone's rights and I said nothing. But then you came for musicals. And you took a stand at last. And it was too late. Oh, my God. Here we go. I love New York. I love New York. Disturbing stuff, obviously. Matt's Pledge.

He's doing what we've really wanted all season, which is like processing what he's been going through. And of course, he's doing it with Karen. Talking about God. Talking about his feelings. Talking about his insecurities and the things he fears about himself. And he's doing it with Karen, a person who knows him, a person he trusts, a person he loves, a person who's not been afraid over the years to call him out on his bullshit. And it was beautiful. It was wonderful. Yeah.

I was like, the only thing that's missing from the scene is him being like, and I probably shouldn't have just pulled out the white tiger mask without talking to Hector about it first. Otherwise, it was perfect. 9.9 out of 10. Point one notes. Karen, have you ever talked with Foggy? Did you ever talk about with Foggy that I'm really a shitty lawyer? Dude. That would have been great. Oh, my God. I'm glad you said that. That's really what I wanted to do the entire pod with you about, which is like how this entire plot ended up hinging on the fact that Foggy's just a really good lawyer and that's a bad one. My son says that.

It's like, wow, Foggy found out about this whole thing because he's a great lawyer. Oh, Foggy. Good legacy. So, little Maddie Murdoch. Recast as he had to be because original OG little Maddie is like 90 now. Probably 40 now. But little Maddie Murdoch staring out the stained glass window talking about faith is like the closest we get to going to church, right? Needed it. Needed it. I just need to read this email we got from our listener, Lally. Ah!

praying for fisting gloves in prayer and service to the divine in season two. Looking forward to all your thoughts, feelings, and reactions to this episode. Lolly, thank you so much for understanding what House of R is about. We're like, let's get ourselves to church, but let's put on the fisting gloves before we go. And that's, uh,

Not the first mention of fisting gloves on this season of coverage. That's why Holly wrote that in the email. It's just a continuing conversation week after week. It's a callback to our previous fisting gloves combo. How many people do you think learned something important in that moment? In the episode four through seven superlatives conversation? Muse was meaningful after all. Muse did matter. Muse mattered. He taught us all so much. Okay. Um,

The way that Matt moves from reflecting about his youth into like this more present circumstance, the darkness. He says, my mistake was thinking I was immune to the darkness and I let it creep inside me. I let the dark power me. I threw Poindexter off that roof. Karen, I wanted to kill him. Like the way that he said that, Karen, I wanted to kill him. And, you know,

It made me think of a couple things from the beginning of the season, but also just the beginning of the show. Like we talked about in our Top Moments episode when Father Lantum and Matt in season one of the original Daredevil series were talking about like the idea of the devil and do you believe in the devil? And to Matt, it was of course in theory about Fisk, but like also it was about the thing inside of himself and the –

symbol that he would end up adopting. So it's always been there with Matt. And to have that resurface here as active text was very satisfying. And then, of course, in that diner conversation with Fisk and Matt at the beginning of the season, the way that Matt talked about the thing that he feared in himself and how it had surfaced, a line was crossed. I felt that I lost the privilege. And despite the good that I was doing, I was causing damage. So for Karen to like

hear this and then use Foggy, whose loss caused this, to say, like, Foggy knew who you were, every part of you, right? And he loved it all. Whatever you want to call yourself, whatever's behind the mask, behind your eyes, that's wrath. That's mercy. That's the dark and the light. He knew all of it, all of it. He knew you. I do too. Like, this

Who needs clips when we can have Mallory Rubin's voice roughened with emotion reading it for us? Oh my God. That's wrath. That's mercy. So good. The specific use of these biblical words. Again, Karen is not someone who like...

we would expect to be in sort of this like father Lantham sister, Maggie Grace, like sort of role, but like, it's sorry. I said sister Maggie Grace. That's not what the sister Maggie, Maggie Grace is an actress from lost. Okay. Anyway, but that's wrath. That's mercy. I got, I got like chills. That's wrath. That's mercy. That's the dark and light. He knew all of it. All of it. He read your journal, Shauna. He knew you. I do too. Like it's,

It's great. I do. And, like, she's got her hands clasped around his neck. Like, heads bowed towards each other. And it's, like, there is, like, romantic sexual tension between these two. But even, like, that moment that, like, you rarely clasp your hands around someone's neck unless you're going to try to, like, make out with them or something like that. In my personal experience. But, like...

But like, that's not what that felt like to me. That just felt like a let me like, let's hold each other close and, and no space between us. Like this. I see you. I know you. Yeah. And you have a kiss on the forehead. Yeah. And people have not known you all season. Yes. You've been around these fuckers who don't know you. I know you. It's really good. I thought this was beautiful. I love everything you just said. The, the, the,

The wrath and mercy idea, like that's the duality. It's not just like a mission statement for this episode or this arc. It's like the Matt Murdock experience, as we've been talking about back from our preview pod and why we love the character. My favorite prog rock band, the Matthew Murdock experience. But yeah.

Oh, God. You know what Fisk said to Matt at the beginning of the season? Like, it's hard to come to terms with the violent nature. That's the Matt Murdock story is him grappling with that. And he needs help. He needs to be able to sit on the bench outside of the church and talk it through. He needs to have Karen wrap her hands around him and bring him back into the light. Like, that's part of why the character is so meaningful and impactful. Like, he's so solitary often and feels that he has to be. But like,

really at the end of the day, he needs the people he loves to help him through. And it's just like, it was very important to see that here. I really loved it. And then like a lot of, they walk out into the room full of a very odd mix of people, as you know, and Matt basically does a ADR voiceover to the audience instead of talking to the people in the room. Um,

Resist. Rebel. Rebuild. Yeah. It was like Andor season two. Resist, rebel, rebuild. Yeah. Great stuff. When he said rebel, I got really excited for Andor. Me too. Me too. It was like Pavlovian. I literally couldn't help but think about Star Wars. And Radiohead is like, what a great few weeks for Radiohead needle drop. We got it for Vans, exit from Yellow Jackets. Everyone's paying Tom York. Tom York's just raking it in and I love that for him.

What else about the end of the episode? We already talked about Fisk and Vanessa going through their pen of prisoners. The prisoners. So Jack's, Jack Duquesne is down there in a cage. Frank Castle's down there in a cage. We think that Artemis's husband, Arthur, is down there in the cage. Do you know where he is? When Leela, in the previous episode, again, Nurse Dana from the pit, can't wait for you to meet Nurse Dana. But like, yeah, in a previous episode, she's like, have you seen my, she's like, oh,

not to offend King. I don't know. Everything's fine. My sassy mouth from a few episodes ago is gone along with my husband. I don't know where he is. Is he in the Caymans? I don't know. No, he's in a cage underground with Jack. Jack, by the way, looking great. He was making it work. Ever so slightly rumpled in his finery, but the hair looks great. Looking great. I would love a lot more Jack Duquesne in season two. Thank you so much.

And Frank Castle's there, but not for long. Because the dumbest guy to ever live, Anthony, Anthony, Anthony from Jersey is like, sure, Mr. Frank Castle, sir, I'll shake your fucking hand.

I loved this performance from Bernthal. I will say this. And I don't want to yuck your yum. I think there were a few Frank Castle live deliveries earlier in the episode that felt like dialed up to 15. That's why I love it. I agree. I was just like, okay. I agree. But here when he was trying to be a little smoothie in his cage and using his chains to hoist himself up and stuff like that, I was like, this is great. Yeah, the chain hoist was honestly magical. This is great.

And that's it, Joe. On to season two of Daredevil Born Again. On to the Punisher special. Who would you rather foolishly approach in a cage? Frank Castle or Jamie Lannister? I guess, I mean...

It's not going to go well in either circumstance, but I would probably rather just be strangled and dead. No. Yeah. I just want it to be over. I don't want the mangled arm and the screaming and, you know, everyone in all the pens is watching. So much drama. And then also then probably just still my neck is snapped after that anyway. Why not just cut right to the point? Okay. You know, you're pro Lannister, team Lannister. Okay. Always. Always. Um,

I love more than anything else. I love that my guy Dex made the final montage. That was great. It made me so happy for season two. That was great. You know, it's... I want more Dex.

We're Dex. We got most of the kind of like, you know, the faces we would expect to see, right? Buck, obviously like the toast and the smiles for Vanessa and Bisk. Cash Poundman, Daniel Blake, Sheila, really still going through it. Your beautiful, beloved Dex. We see Angela. Hector's niece is here. So more white tiger action to come in season two. When he says...

The words he says are like, he was like, blah, blah, blah. It's our city. Right. And he says the weak and it's on to Angela. And then he says the strong. Yeah. The strong is over Angela's face. Yes. That was interesting. Yeah. Yeah. All of us. Heather. Heather, Kirsten, Frank, Karen. We see some of the task force members who were shooting looters and then.

Pulling their hats down to pretend they had been masked vigilantes. Great stuff. Good God. And that's it. So we're heading on to season two. We're going to get the Defenders back together, get the band back together. Is that what you think is certainly going to happen? Definitely going to happen? Yeah. Is there any way in which we get Kamala? I need that, like, promise of a dinner in Jersey City to happen.

Okay. To bear fruit. Yeah. Now, obviously, she's got other things going on. She's in California. Young Avengers things. Young Avengers champions. Yeah. But a little bit of a, oh, I came home and you guys have put a street-level team of vigilantes together in the face of Fisk's martial law. She'd do a Yelena Belova swing-by. A Yelena Belova swing-by. Exactly. Come in, team up, help out. Oh, my God. And then go make a Young Avengers movie. Can you imagine how cute...

Charlie Cox's Matt Murdock in Kamala would be Kamala would be. It was so cute. Absolutely wonderful to think about. I hope we get that in season two. I'm excited. I'm excited. I'll probably make the mistake of picking it really high in the hype draft.

I'm glad to have gone through the experience. I'm glad to have revisited Daredevil on Netflix. Me too. And be reminded how much I loved it. Same. I'm glad that it feels like it's a step in the right direction. A step in the right direction makes us hopeful for things like Thunderbolts and Fantastic Four. Like, if we are pivoting towards the light, then I will be excited. I'm...

Pet Avengers one. Thunderbolts. Come on. I'm so excited. We'll see. Two weeks. Two weeks away. Wow. Two weeks. Great stuff. We did it. We covered another season of television. We did do it. I guess if we amend our list of season two demands, we had five. We make it a list of six.

Go back to Hell's Kitchen. That's the last thing. I mean, they're there right now. Stay there. Stay at Josie's. Come on. Rent a flat above Josie's. Hopefully it's got great windows and that's all we ask for. I do. I mean, some stuff went down in the stairwell there. Yeah. It sounds to me like there's some openings in the building. I don't know.

a bit of a triggering place for that to live. Doesn't it seem like not all of those people made it out of that stairwell fight alive and so their apartments might be open? Maybe just like half a block away. It's good to get outside and stretch your legs or so I hear. All right, Jo. There's nothing in this world a good cup of coffee can't fix and there's nothing in this world potting with you can't fix. You're the best. I love you. Darling, I feel the same way. Thank you. It's time to thank everyone. Thank you to today and this season Steve Ullman for producing this podcast.

John Richter for all of his work on the video aspect of this podcast. Thank you today to Oscar De La Luz for helping us out with the video production as well. And of course, as always, to Arjun Aram Kapal for his production supervision and Jomia Deneron for his work on the socials. Until next time. Yeah. We love New York. The fungus loves too.