'Dune: Prophecy' Episode 4, and the 'Severance' Season 2 Trailer
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The Sisterhood would like to elevate House Harkonnen by offering you the services of a truth-sayer. After decades standing idly by while your own house claws its way out of the shit, now you choose to appear? Perhaps we should confer. The Sisterhood acknowledges its oversight. You abandoned us. Strange, I seem to remember it the other way around. Welcome to House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson. That's Mallory Rubin. We're here today to talk to you about a couple different things. Mm-hmm.

Not only the coughing, wheezing, gagging of yet another Harkonnen, but Dune Prophecy, Episode 4. And there's a new trailer for Severance Season 2. That's right. So we thought we would just sort of like dip our toe into both.

and sort of run speed run, uh, some, some items of content. Is that what we're calling art these days? Items of content here on this Monday for you. Um, and then we'll be back later, uh, this week with a more traditional deep dive into, uh, skeleton crew episode three.

So what's happening on the feed right now? Listen, we're doing this. We're doing Skeleton Crew later this week, as we mentioned. Next week, however, there will be no Doom Prophecy podcast because the cinematic event of the year. Dare I say decade. Dare we say century. Kraven the Hunter is coming out later this week. Amalia and I will be back next week to give our

deepest of heartiest of most heartfelt dives into it as well as War of the Rookerum the Lord of the Rings animated prequel sort of film that's also coming out so that is something we're doing next week

We'll be back with Skeleton Crew next week. And then we will do a twofer. We'll do a Dune Prophecy episodes five and six together to sort of wrap up the season. So we're not abandoning Dune. We'll be back for the finale. But next week, I'm so sorry. Aaron Taylor-Johnson's abs are a call-in and who are we to refuse the call? Righteous but not pure. That's us. That's us every day. That's what I say. We're on the ring of our midnight boys. Are doing something called Naughty Nice Gotta Think Twice.

And frankly, I don't know what that is, but I can guess and I'm excited to find out for sure. Also from Button Mash, Ben and Arjuna and Jomie are covering Indiana Jones and the Great Circle. Mallory, have you ever played an Indiana Jones video game? No, and as I understand it, there's a long history of the indie games being quite bad, but people actually like this one. Oh. So that's exciting. Okay. Well, then I won't share that as a child. I played an Indiana Jones game on like a PC. Wow.

Where you had to go around the catacombs. And as a child, I thought it ruled. You loved it. I did love it. Will you be playing the new one? No. The Midnight Boys will also be continuing their coverage of Skeleton Crew. And honestly, Mallory, I don't know how you feel about this, but it says Craven the Hunter instant reactions question mark in the calendar. Will you...

Will you abandon our boys if they don't give Craven the Hunter its cinematic due over on their feed? No. I'll never abandon the boys. I just hope that everybody treats themselves to the splendor that awaits. To be clear, I have not seen this film and can't comment on the quality, but that does nothing to dampen my enthusiasm. I had a great moment last night home on my couch when a...

frankly miraculous television trailer for the film aired. And Adam said, do you and Joe have plans? Are you eating dinner before or after the movie? And I turned to him, I said, Joanna's not actually going to be seeing the movie with me. And he said, what do you mean? You guys have been talking about it nonstop on the pod. I thought you were serious. And I had to reveal and share that, in fact, I would not be seeing this with you. But

In spirit. The offer stands if you change your mind. Also, yeah, sure, in spirit. But the offer stands if you change your mind. And you know what? No matter what, we're going to have the privilege of potting about it together. I will send you a couple more photos of any – Please do.

larger-than-life-size marketing material that I am fortunate enough to happen across over my cinematic goings over the next few days. Can't wait to see this movie. Can't wait to see Rohirrim. Just a holiday bounty indeed. I would just like Adam to know for the record that if we were to go see Kraven the Hunter in a private theater with dinner beforehand, he's invited.

According to me, Adam's invited. It's not up to you. It's up to me. Adam's invited if he wants to come do that. Also, do you think it's a missed opportunity? They didn't do a special popcorn bucket for Craven, right? Do you think it's a missed opportunity for it not to just be like sort of a flat service with a bunch of ridges in it for you to like a little ab-shaped ridges? Yeah, the popcorn kind of nestles in those ab notes. Yeah, nestle in the ridges and then you just like pour the oil on top so that it makes sure it's all like, you know, screen accurate. Um...

So somewhere in there, I said what we're doing on various podcasts. So Mallory, how can people keep track of what we're up to here at the end of the year when things are a little loose? Indeed. Thanks for asking. Here's what I would recommend. Follow the pods. Brilliant.

Follow House of R, follow The Ringerverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Guess what? You can watch full video episodes of House of R and Midnight Boys, pew, pew, on Spotify. Fucking amazing. Incredible. Also- Technology. Technology. Hit that subscribe button on The Ringerverse YouTube channel, where you can also find full video pods. And while you're at it, you're at your computer, your phone's in your hand.

Couple more things for you. One, follow the ringer verse on the social media platform of your choosing. What is that today? That's up to you. Also.

Send us an email. The inbox is open. It's piping hot. Hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com. I was with Jo in person last week multiple times. It was just a sensational visit. It was like thrilling, wonderful. Filled me with warmth and joy and purpose. And she did mention in the time that we had together that not a lot of bad babies had sent photos inside of the Nosferatu coffin yet. So you still have time. No, but we did.

And you thought that I had done this myself, but it does exist. A bad baby photoshopped Cobb Vanth in the Bacta tank on top of the Nosferatu coffin sarcophagus. So listen, our brands are strong and I love that for us.

So today, spoiler warning, up through Dune Prophecy Episode 4, we've got a few morsels from listeners here and there that will dip into Dune Messiah, the source material for the third Denis Villeneuve movie. And I'll give you guys a warning. Nothing major, just in case you want to stay as pure as the driven spice. We will let you sort of skip past that if you want to. So we're going to do six-ish Dune Prophecy questions with Mallory Rubin, plus...

A quick check-in on the Severance trailer. I don't know why I always say Severance as if it's French. It's not. Okay. I hope it's also six dude prophecy questions with Joanna Robinson. Nope. Just me asking you questions. Let's start with Severance. Shall we not? Grab your outies and your innies. It's Severance trailer time. All right. So this trailer dropped, I don't know, 48 hours ago, something like that.

Is this a SpawnCon? It's not. But it did just occur to me that where will we be covering Severance? We will probably not be covering it on this feed. Rob Mahoney and I are planning to cover it over on the Prestige TV podcast feed, which is where we covered season one over on the Prestige feed. The Prestige podcast feed is...

This very week will be available in video form because we are launching a ringer TV, YouTube channel. So, uh, and, and Chris, uh, CR and Rob and I launched like filmed a little holiday treat for you guys to launch that channel, uh, with some recommendations. So the watch Mallory's favorite podcast. Yeah. Do you, do you share with public how you listen to the watch?

Uh, I think it has come up. I believe Chris actually revealed it once on an episode of The Watch, shared it, that I do enjoy listening to The Watch while taking a relaxing bath. Okay. So while you're soaking in the tub, will you now be watching The Watch as you soak in the tub? As I told Chris last week, I have to like assess my personal habits now because that feels like

I've known Chris and Andy for a really long time, but that feels like just a might intimate. Yeah, a bridge too far. Okay. We'll see, though. Honestly, I'm open to trying. If you guys want to listen and watch Chris and Andy while you're in the bath,

That will be available to you on the new Ringer TV YouTube channel. We'll have all kinds of fun TV coverage up there. Plenty of Prestige TV episodes will be up there. C.R. and I are cooking a very special treat, hopefully, for you guys on that feed as well. So stay tuned. Mel and I... I'm thrilled. We got some plans for the Prestige feed next year. Yeah.

Headed to somewhere warmer and sunnier, perhaps? Also somewhere much, much colder? Those are my two hints. Okay. Speaking of Severance, having watched this trailer that came out a couple days ago, Mallory, over the weekend, was there anything that grabbed your attention off the top? What are you most excited about?

My answer to did anything grab my attention is every single frame. This was the... Like, I just fucking love this show. I can't believe it's been... You know, when it returns for season two on January 17th, it will be nearly three years since the sensational season one finale. And so about three years since season one began. And as you know, as we discussed together on the Prestige TV podcast, what a great podcast, the season one finale was...

That was the only episode I had the privilege of potting about, and I thought it was one of the best finales in recent memory. It really was. The entire season was wonderful. I cannot wait to rewatch season one in full. Honestly, just for the sheer pleasure of it. Just doing it for me. I loved it. And so the little brief teaser we got

Yeah. Which was more like vibes than anything else. Hey, welcome back to the world. Welcome back to the world of Lumen, the world of Indies and Audis. That was exciting. But this footage, story beats, when the fucking score hits, the level of detail of like the, even just the Apple branding and the word marks going from Audi to Indie and back. Yeah, yeah. Like every single detail is so precise that it just-

It filled me with such euphoria that we're going to be back in the world because the show was so expert in season one. I have nothing but high hopes that it will be exceptional again in season two. And this was the kind of trailer that...

theory-brained people like us love, that podcasters like us love. So just the whole thing, like this is the kind of trailer that you could just soak up the vibes for two minutes and 48 seconds and it's great, or you can go frame by frame, time after time after time, and try to actually look for clues. I, much as was the case at the end of season one, my heart kind of

Like, I felt my heart contracting and surging the most whenever Irv was on screen. I just love him so much. Same, really, honestly, when I saw Dylan. I think I'm most like, fuck what's going to happen here with Helly. Some very fascinating Helly glimpses in the trailer that make me really excited but also really nervous. And, yeah, so honestly, just, like, everything. I'm also just, I think, at the biggest level, like, oh, okay.

They're really making it clear that they're returning down to Lumen, to their severed job, to their any life, retaining the knowledge of what transpired and what they did in the finale, which was kind of a surprise. But even then, there are aspects of the trailer where you're like, wait, for how long? Why is Mark with another crew, et cetera? So the whole thing I just thought was great. Awesome trailer. Yeah.

I mean, I had Severance at number one on my recent winter hype meter episode that we just did. I'm like looking forward to this so much. And it took the hype that was already really high for me and honestly elevated it further. So that's a long way of saying just literally everything. How about you? What got you most hyped? What stood out most to you? I do need to check in with Rob because they did violate his number one no rule, which is that they did like a slightly slowed down creepy version of a...

of an old of an old hit the four tops reach out I'll be there but like I think in a slightly a different way than the one that usually bugs Rob but I I loved it I loved the use of music there I thought it was great

I do want to shout out the new cast members we saw in this trailer. We saw Bob Balaban. We saw Ali Shaqat. We saw Gwendolyn Christie. Have yet to set eyes on Merritt Weaver, I believe, or John Noble. So I've got my eyeballs peeled for those two. It seems like, to your point, it seems like Mark gets a new team, perhaps. And there's that ominous moment in the trailer of...

the where they where he goes goodbye Mark S and it's like he has this desperate like are you going to erase me sort of moment and blank slate me but I think to your point so all this stuff happens at the end of season one in a sort of almost like premise breaking way yeah um

How are you going to have them go back down in like how are you going to have them live their in reality lives after they've discovered everything they've discovered at the end of the season? One way is to wipe their memories. That would be so enormously dissatisfying for the audience. Just feel like you hit a reset button on them. But it seems like they're trying to thread a needle and I'm really excited to find out how they do it by convincing them.

the, our heroes, our main core heroes, that they did make a difference. Um, but there are hints inside of this, uh, trailer that it's all propaganda bullshit. Lumen, you, you scamps. Um, they're called the face of severance reform. Uh, and, and sort of the big, I have Milchick says that it must be true. It must be true. He, the man knows how to dance and he knows how to say things that are true. Um, and,

He hands Mark a heavily redacted newspaper. So funny. That Reddit was just like, oh, a meal just for me? Thank you ever so much. There's a grainy black and white photo of our core four. Yeah.

in a parade, in a victory parade. And it's just a poorly Photoshopped version of their team photo inserted into an actual historical photo of Eisenhower in Brazil. Reddit has already cracked it. They're like, we know what this is a Photoshop of. It's just...

Aizen Ike in Brazil. That's what we're doing here. So like, and they've already been pouring over the non-redacted words in the article and all of that. And it's just like, it's very fascinating. I did want to mention a few things that are seen in this newspaper article really quickly.

So a quote, a benediction was delivered by Dr. Rickon Hale, end quote, sidebar Joanna. Rickon is Mark's brother-in-law. And this is why we're worried. Continue the quotation. Quote, author of such hits as The You You Are and These Values Nine, How I Let Keir In, end quote. So Rickon, our guy, we love him.

He wrote a book called These Values Nine, How I Let Keir In. Keir, if you might remember, because it's been three years. Shocking to hear. It's the spooky-ooky head of the founder of all of this. And we do not want the idea of letting Keir in to be something we support. So we're a little worried about that.

And then I just want to end with this last sentence. This is for you, Mallory. In the wake of last week's revelation, Lumen has begun implementing global reforms to ensure happiness and safety of innies. Redacted. Top of the line recreational facilities. Sexual liberations. Improved. Cut off by frame. Okay. So Mallory. Indeed.

When can we have Spotify promise us top of the line recreational facilities and sexual liberation? I can't comment on behalf of the company. In terms of Lumen, though, do you think, you know, Dylan fled right at the waffle party?

As the sex dance was unfolding, right? Go sit on the bed, put on the mask, watch these partially nude, also masked figures dance for you. There's like the toys around. So...

What do we think? I mean, is this like, okay, that's a waffle party. What's like a pancake party? I mean, what do we think this means? What level of breakfast reward do you need to reach in order to be able to partake in something that represents a change over what was previously on offer? What about your visage carved into a watermelon? Uh...

I am a huge watermelon fan. So, and I have to say they captured, I thought, Irv's likeness remarkably. So I am disturbed, but also I was intrigued. And the snacks, like, what do we know? We know like the egg bar. Remember, Joe, egg bar coveted?

I mean, a melon bar. I'm sure this is like a wonderful moment for someone. I'm upset by how many details you do remember about Severance. I have to say, it feels very faint in my mind. Like, very, very faint. But talking about it, some of it, it's coming back a little bit. I remembered the waffle party, but I would fully admit I had forgotten about the egg bar. I love a deviled egg, so it left an impression. I love a deviled egg also.

I was like, wow, this seems amazing. A cocktail and a deviled egg in the middle of the workday. How wonderful. Actually, the workday was winding down. So on the Rick in front, a couple things, actually. Let me say quickly that the newspaper stretch of the trailer led to, I will just say, my favorite moment of the trailer. I'm going to give it a little impromptu award here, which was, you know, Dylan's like, okay, so we're not in trouble. And Mark says, I don't think so. Miltrick said we're famous. And then Dylan says, all of us equally? Yeah.

one of us is like the star. Yeah.

That just killed me. Because, like, this show is so intellectually and philosophically provocative. It's, like, very gut-wrenching. It's moving. It's poignant. It's profound. But it's also, like, whip-smart funny. It's very funny. And that's... I believe that that is, like, Ben Stiller's influence, that this, like, show exists and Ben Stiller's, like, what if we make it funny? And there's, like... Great stuff. Even in the intensity, like, there's...

sequence in this trailer where Mark is running to try to get into an office to get on the intercom to talk to is it the committee? Is that what it is? The board. The board. There you go. The board. And Milchick is like, you know, right behind him and sort of like yanks the court out and it's just like it's scary and there's physical comedy involved at the same time. It's great stuff. Yes. Absolutely sensational. So Ricken, your guy.

Your favorite author. You've been to a reading. You've taken your seven minutes for reflection. I'm disturbed. I'm disturbed.

I'm disturbed. I really like this guy. I'm disturbed. There is this, there was this theory in season one about this idea of completely severed individuals, people who had just sort of been completely, there's no innie and outie. We are forever innies. And that Rickon might be one of those severed individuals. And that would be like such a wallop if that's revealed because he was so judgmental about like the choice Mark made. So that feels like very potent earth to mine.

In the finale, when Inimark reveals everything in the limited time that he has to his sister, Devin is like, Rickon knows a lot of journalists. You know, let's go to the journalists instead of the police. So Rickon,

early theory corner here. Like, do you think that Rickon in trying to help genuinely trying to help maybe then is like his, his desire for fame, for notoriety, for influence is like weaponized to bring him under somebody else's thrall. Is that what's going to happen? I love a thrall as you know, vampire or no. Um,

It's a great theory. I love it. And on the Dylan front, in terms of who's the most famous out of the famous four, there's a behind-the-scenes shot. This is in Vanity Fair. There's a behind-the-scenes shot of Ben Stiller directing on set, and behind him is this propaganda poster of Dylan holding...

like that, that sort of spread Eagle pose that we loved from the finale, uh, holding down the switches. And so, um, incredible love, love to see it. Dylan, you are famous at least in poster form and propaganda poster form. Um, also we want to mention this, this is sort of the juiciest meat I find two feet upon, which is, um, I love a love triangle. This might be more of like a love, I don't know, decadence or something like that, because like,

Mark and his wife, Gemma, who is also Miss Casey in her innie world. And again, this might be another completely severed individual, his wife. We hear, Mark, there will be no honeymoon ending for you.

Quite. We get golden sun drenched what I call dead dog wife flashbacks, presumably of his previous happy marriage to his wife Gemma. But then we also have what's going on with Mark and Helly and Helena. Yes.

which we get Hallie and Mark like making out on surveillance footage and Helena, Helena, who is the Audi version of Hallie, the evil Audi version watching, watching and smirking. Yes. And so this idea of like a triangle of,

Like if you want to call that a triangle, which it is and it isn't or whatever. At least it's a dynamic with three people, two of which are the same person, which is fascinating. And then we also definitely have what I would consider, I'm sorry, what is the technical company term? Sexual liberations with Mark and Helly under some red light in this trailer. So, you know.

Okay. You ready for another theory? I love this. This is occurring to me in real time. You've come prepared. No, this is genuinely inspired right now by this rundown here. So...

Helena. I also keep wanting to say Helena. It's Helena, right? Helena Egan. I think I have my House of the Dragon. Yes, this is happening to me as well. So Aerys, you know, of the Egan clan, sent herself in to be severed, right? This is one of the astonishing moments of the reveals at the end of the season. And...

part of the incredible tension in the season one finale is because of the way the episode, much like the sensational film draft day is set against. And yes, I will use that comp every time I mentioned a clock in a story, no one will stop me, uh, is the tension of like, will she get up to make her, her speech in the state? Yeah. And so you're watching and you think it's going to be like, Oh, just in time, Milchick, not in time for us, but in time for Lumen, Milchick reaches Dylan and, uh,

And Helena is able to give the speech she wants, but that's not what happens. Heli says all these things out loud. I think the assumption is that it's that much more than anything that happens with Mark. That forces their hand. Or that forces their hand because it was in plain view of so many people at this banquet. Okay. So I think based on what we see elsewhere in this trailer, right?

It seems clear that Mark is going to go back down and share with his fellows what he learned about Gemma. That's clear. That's in the trailer. Okay. I think that the attraction, and he knows it's Miss Casey, so he's like, I have to rescue her. That's also in the trailer. Okay. We watch Milchik send her down to that scary hallway in the season one finale. On the one hand, the spark between Hallie and Mark S. was real, genuine. Mm-hmm.

That kiss at the elevator in the finale, like all of that was – the spark was there. The flirtation was prevalent. Now that he knows his wife, his Audi's wife, thought dead is here, it's difficult for me to imagine that any Mark is going to embark on any sort of romantic escapade with Helly because he's going to be set on finding Miss Casey, which means –

I think that that scene is an Audi Mark. Yes. I wouldn't say no. I genuinely wouldn't say no. Will she pursue him deliberately because she's watched this footage and knows that on some level she's attracted to him? Yeah. There is footage of Audi Mark in a bar and way in the background you can see someone that looks like she has red hair. So, you know.

Love that. Love that for you. Though, I mean, like, what does any Mark owe Audi Mark's wife on the fidelity front? You know what I mean? I mean, this is one of the great philosophical, like, questions of the show. Correct. It's like, are you one person or are you truly living two lives? And that's part of what makes it such a rich and interesting text. Fascinating.

fascinated by this show. Anything else you want to say? There's like a spooky painting. We love a spooky painting. Oh, man. That makes me think of Burt, of course, the optics and design department. So, yeah, I'm eager to learn more about that. A lot of people seem to think so. It's like four figures buried, probably naked, buried up to their shoulders. Yeah.

And then I think it's supposed to be Kier with a sword over them. And so a lot of people are like, oh, these are the four, our four heroes. But one of them is definitely not Heli. It's definitely four... I'm not going to gender all of them, but I'm going to say...

They all look like male figures to me, personally. And I could find a Dylan and a Mark and an Irv, but then there's a fourth person that I would not say looks like Kelly to me. So what's going on there? What's all this then? I'm on a similar journey. I don't know, and I cannot wait to find out. Claymation Irv. Claymation Irv with his head exploding. Is this another prize you can pick if you refine your data? No.

It's not my choice, personally. How would you choose? Would you choose Claymation Mallory or would you choose Watermelon Head Mallory? For sure, Watermelon Head Mallory, without hesitation. Yeah. Though I think you know I'm going for the waffle party. I think I'm... Come on. Come on. HR. HR.

I would definitely go Claymation. Whatever this is, I want to be a part of it. Great. I support you fully. What else? What else stood out from the trailer? A lot of Gemma. The back half of the trailer basically is like a Gemma mystery. Search for Gemma. Yeah. A missing sign. Xeroxing the missing posters. So question, is the reveal... I don't even know if this would count as like a big reveal because it feels like almost...

clearly where we're heading, though maybe not. That she chose. Well, that Helly will end up being the one behind this because of her role in the company. Like, that Mark will have to, and we will learn that Helly is the one who's, like, responsible for keeping Gemma as Miss Casey. And then relatedly, like, was this more a matter of convenience, right? This car accident actually happened. Mm-hmm. And then they took her and they kept her down there to try this thing. Yeah.

Or was this always the mission to test this couple in this way? Because there's that scene in season one where Cobell and Milchick are watching the wellness session. And Milchick's like, it's good that they don't remember. It means the chips are working and other moments like that. So I don't know, were they targeted? There's also the speedometer shot in the trailer of something going up above 160. I'm like...

Maybe, but on the other hand, I don't think it's that interesting that Helena, who we already know is evil and sucks, would be behind this. I think it's more upsetting if Gemma chose this for some reason. For sure. And then Mark has to face that. And that was another thing that really compelled me in the trailer, because

You know, who knows how many of these little snippets that are apparently sequential are actually from totally different scenes. It certainly seems like some of the Devin Mark moments that seem to be together are different locations just based on lighting. Yeah. But there's that moment where Mark is like, this is obscene. Yeah. And Devin says, I just want to be sure. So I really, like, I'm compelled by the idea that... Exhuming. Well, that just that, yeah, any of it, right? But just in general, that Mark's outie is like, I've like...

And getting to this point took everything I had. And I don't want to open this wound again. And then another version of Mark is the one who sparked all this. That's very delicious. I mean, it is fun, but it's also like, I don't think Audi Mark has processed. Certainly not. Gemma. So I would say that like went into a severed state. The obscene is like a

a literal exhuming of her body. Let's check to see if her body's there and that could tell us one way or another. And he's like, that's fucking obscene, you know? Guess what, guys? Severance. What a weird show. And if you don't remember it, that's because it's been three years. So why don't you do a rewatch over the holidays and join us in the new year as we cover Severance season two. Anything else you want to say before we...

We head to a galaxy far, far away. That's a different franchise, but you know what I mean. They both involve sand dunes. It's fine. No, I just say I enjoyed chatting about this trailer. Great idea. Love the show. Can't wait for it to be back. Excellent. That means it's time for our Dune Prophecy opening snapshot. Dune Prophecy

Season one, episode four, Twice Born. Directed by Richard Lewis, written by Kevin Lau and Suzanne Rubel. Let's hope that's how you pronounce her beautiful name. Season one, episode four, only two more episodes left. Wild. Staggering. Frankly astonishing.

Baffling. Mallory Rubin, we have not checked in with you since episode two. Yeah. How are you feeling about this spicy, doony, eye-gouging, throat-slitty kind of show? So much throat-slitting. On a scale of one to ten, how mad are you that Ben and I did not speak more in depth about whale fur?

Unless except. So would you like to rectify that in this very moment? I think you two did exactly what I would have if I had been here, which is just to allude to the striking similarity aside from the temperature of the planet and the sun level between that sequence and Obi-Wan chopping up space whale meat in the television series Obi-Wan Kenobi. Yeah.

I missed you. I missed you last week. Thanks for holding down the fort. Now and always, you're a legend. Thanks to Ben and Van for joining. We were launching the new Ringer website. TheRinger.com. Ringer.com, what a great website. Check it out. Check it out. And I was sad to miss that pod, particularly, I'm even sadder now because it strikes me as possible that I've missed the chance to talk about

The best episode of the season. Best episode of the season, episode three, which I did enjoy quite a bit. Me too. I really, really, really liked episode three, and I left episode three on a real high, even though I was still a little bit perplexed by how this story could be told in six total episodes, feeling like, okay, maybe we've cracked something about what is working here, and we'll go into the back half strong. I think episode four was my

least favorite of the season and really was like an inversion of three in many crucial respects in terms of just like the timeline, the character sets, the type of thing we're focusing on. Um,

You know, overall, I remain, I think, in a similar spot to you, like quite mixed on the show. There are things about it that I'm enjoying week to week and then a lot that is like perplexing me. I think that this week was, even though it was my least favorite episode of the season, this was fun on the like Dune nerd canon front just because, you know, there's like a

canly mention. We get face dancers. There's like a lot of fun lore that was brought into the story in some capacity this week. So that's interesting and exciting. But just in terms of like how all of these plot threads are going to come together and also just like the still kind of

I don't know, essence of the show. It feels a little lifeless to me. I think that's the only way I can sum it up. It's just not quite clicking for me, even though there's some stuff here that I'm enjoying. How about you? How'd you feel about four, and how are you four-sixths of the way through the season? It's two-thirds, because we can simplify that fraction. Indeed. No math! Oh, yeah. It, um...

having a tough time with this show. There are sequences I find very stunning. Like in this episode, we've got the, like the, you know, the, all the acolytes and their dream drawings. I thought that was incredibly cool and spooky. Maybe you want to get a sketchbook. Charcoal. Yeah. Do you have some charcoal or are you a, no. Okay. I might actually, one of my, one of my college roommates who was a, a very gifted artist, I think I believe left some,

If you don't, Hanukkah is mere days away. And I can make this happen for you. And then also, I think the literal whisper, like watching the Bene Gesserit sisters in the various palaces where they're posted, you know, work their machinations. That was quite fun. It was like an episode of West Wing. Like, I had a really good time with that. And so more of that would be great and less of some of the other things that we had to deal with in this episode.

You know, you and I were both excited and anticipating Mark Addy being on the show. We got to hear him cough and wheeze and gasp his way through the opening clip in this episode. Great work by you there. I have no notes on the soundbite selection. As soon as I heard it, I was like, this is it. Every gurgle is going in. Overall, not that interesting at the end of the day, unfortunately. So we're going to do...

Six questions, six-ish R's. I don't know how the caption, I don't know if John Richter, a learning man that he is, will vibe with what I did in the notes. So I don't know if it's going to show up in the caption this way. But I came up with six questions that I'll begin with the letter R in sort of like text speak. Why? Because I love you. Okay. So this is six-ish R's for House of R with Mal and Joanna.

First one is this. Are you ready for a horny check-in with Mallory Rubin? Mallory Rubin, you missed so much sex. Are you sad that Constantine is... Story of my life. Are you sad that Constantine is so hot but so weak? And before I throw over to you to ISO on the horny mic, which is what you do best, let's be clear, our listener Rio...

wrote in to say, I am also shocked this is six episodes. I didn't realize, considering how little has been accomplished midway, this is after episode three, midway, and considering how much space coke-fueled sex I have been subjected to, I feel incredibly frustrated. So Mallory, you can ping off anything there you want. Incredibly frustrated, hot but so weak, space coke-fueled sex, horny.

horny check-in. How is the horny level of the show for you? Is this what we want from HBO Sunday night? Or is something missing? What do you think? So, you know, I think I fell probably

more in your camp than maybe you would have anticipated in the chat that you and Ben had last week about the sex position, but not because I mind a sex position scene. As a longtime Thrones viewer. Dare I say connoisseur? It's a passion. It's a passion of both mine and Peter Baelish's. Uh-huh. Um...

That Constantine scene in episode two, while I thought quite amusing and certainly sexy, was just so clunky in terms of its purpose and its function in the episode and in the story. Overall with Constantine, he remains clunky.

Quite hot. That's a thing that I still believe is true. Absolutely. And, you know, I think the weakness is something that ultimately I want to find winning about him, actually. Like, the fact that he is this...

incredibly good-looking prince of the Imperium who, despite being illegitimate, has a place at his father's side. And when his father sees him ahead of the Great Council meeting, he calls him over and

expresses his gratitude to see him and then this poor fucker can't find the fortitude to like honor his word to his sister and actually see it through and just has to like wilt and walk away. There's something about that that's interesting to me. But it's definitely not

actually working all that well i don't i don't think it's that interesting i want to find it interesting but i just feel like it's it's the same note we saw play earlier in the episode you know that his sister's like i'm leaving this breakfast table because i think it's not cool that we've murdered a kid and i think it's not cool that we're letting this creepy weirdo we don't know anything about except he's got absolutely batshit insane eyes and can bird people

hang out with us at our seaside brunch table. She's like, I'm leaving. And he gets up and his dad's like, sit the fuck down. And he does. So pathetic and sad.

And tragic. I guess in a like clunky six episode season, we're going to hope that he makes after watching him fail to take a stand, he will take some kind of stand in episode five or six that that's where this is headed. But we had even very different tone. But we had like in the first episode when he went to Wallach nine on Inez's behalf, that moment where he tried to push with Valia for private quarters. And it's just like, you know,

Sexy smirk. Never mind. Well, I had to try. And so in different contexts and different ways, we've seen him make some sort of effort and then...

shrink uh pretty quickly whether it's in charming fashion or in sort of sad boy fashion so yeah i think it feels like we're building toward either that really having some sort of consequence right like resulting in the death of somebody in his who's close to him or something um or that he will actually stand his ground and then that will be a i mean surprise but yeah i i

This connects to a larger issue I'm having with the show, which is just like, I'm curious if you felt the same way. In the Thinking Machine drone sequence in the throne room, everybody is assembled, the great council's, right? The great council of Lansrad. And Harrow is prepared to make his big speech. Kieran is waiting by the gate. Desmond is about to...

monologue for a while in menacing fashion. And I found myself, Valia's waiting, you know, knife in hand to make her move. Inez is going to come in and finish Harrow's sentence for him and stand against her father. Many of the consequential players in the show are in this room, in theory, about to achieve something and shift something seismic or die.

And I did not care at all what happened to any of them. Not to a single one of them. Yeah. Like, the tension is supposed to be so supreme. And I found myself really, like, awed by how little investment I had in the fates of any of the people in that room. Which is, I think, objectively not a good sign for the show. Yeah. I mean, I find that. Two-thirds of the way through. Or four-sixths of the way through. Whichever you prefer. I find myself at this point caring, like, almost exclusively about, like, Tula. Yeah.

Easily my favorite. And Lila, I guess. But not anything that was happening in that room at all. And not a single character in that room at all. And that's not what you want from a show. I'm just going to go out on a limb and say that's not what you want from a show. And I have to say, I think it's like, I don't want to keep piling on or whatever. I've been thinking a lot about Westworld Season 4. Oh?

Same showrunner as this one. Genuinely a very lovely woman, but I think her storytelling instincts are just serving something that I'm not that interested in, where she's just interested in layer upon layer of complicated lore. This is the thing that Westworld got accused of, and it did eventually go there, but when it started, Westworld was...

lore mystery but character as well and so you were emotionally invested in the twists and turns of the mystery because you cared about almost all of these characters and um and then in its final season it just the the the table just completely turned and it was just like a bunch of gibberish nonsense lore stuff without that emotional connection that you want like characters were just killed without it just like really even feeling characters you've been with for seasons right

were killed without it feeling like it even mattered. And also there was something that I worry about. I don't know that I'm not worried about it, but is there going to be a second season of this show that people don't seem to really like that much? I don't know exactly what the instincts are at HBO Warner Brothers right now when it comes to their IP and how to milk it, but...

It feels like of all the things we're setting up, like we get this, you know, not to skip ahead that far, but we get this like face dancer reveal inside this episode at the end of the episode, which confused a lot of people and set them, you know, said the SEO articles climbing the chart, I'm sure on Sunday night. But like we get that reveal. We have two more episodes with a, you know, in order to execute that.

storytelling card in a way that will feel surprising or interesting. I don't know how they plan to do that. So I worry, as with the final season, what wound up being the final season of Westworld, that they're setting up a lot of stuff for a season that will never come. They're getting a lot of setup for a potential second season that we may never get. Let's go back. Before we get to the face dancing, which we'll get to, let's go back to Desmond Hart. Are we prepared for

To definitively call Desmond Hart a gola inside of this. And I will get this email from Jeff out of the way. Our listener Jeff said, just like the show has answered one question that might interest a fan, where did the voice originate? I suspect that where the Desmond Hart story is headed is to answer the question, why did the Sisterhoods decide it needed a quixote? So... Listen. We're doing our best. Sensational.

Um, beautiful. So this idea of Desmond Hart is a goal, which is something we floated in the very first episode. Yeah. This idea that the real Desmond Hart died and there's, this is a manufactured clone, uh, version of him. Yeah. The glowing eyes, the glowing blue eyes, all that sort of stuff. Um, where are you on that idea? And can you tie that idea into this, uh,

that we're seeing the origins of... And this is another thing that I'm worried about in terms of the show. We see the origin of the voice. We see the origin of the bed of Jezreel to a certain degree. We see perhaps the first ever face dancer is a question that we have at the end of this episode. Did we just watch the first ever guild navigator get invented? That's a slightly more out there theory than a theory. So how many sort of origin stories of...

key kinds of characters or key kinds of things inside of this world is a one six episode season of television trying to give to us. So anyway, let's take it back to the Gola. Do you think Desmond Hart is a manufactured clone of a guy who died in Arrakis? Do you think that explains the accent where they're like, how do humans talk? I'm not sure. Oh, man. Um,

I do. So like you said, this was something we talked about as early as the premiere. We talked about in general with the eyes and the holding of the side of the head and the similarity between his eyes, which obviously there's the spice impact of Arrakis, but also these two pinpricks of blue light that everybody's seeing in their visions, which obviously are central here. And so when we kind of go into Desmond's head in this episode and then those two pinpricks converge and we go back out of his eye, there's the direct...

an even more direct link than already seemed apparent. You know, I think that given what we hear Desmond say throughout this episode, like the very unflinching anti-thinking machine dogma, which was interesting to me more broadly because he, at the beginning of the series, seemed so... And obviously we've seen him, you know, oppose...

Valia, he is opposing the Bene Gesserit, but he was kind of in the early part of the show almost saying this was a thing and we broke free of it only to find ourselves controlled by another body, meaning the Bene Gesserit. And now he's focused more on the

And I'm like, does he know that they're using? Does he know that the Bene Gesserit are using thinking machines? Like, I can't, I honestly can't tell how much of this is just like the parallel for like dramatic moments.

oomph and how much is like that he actually cares about both or that they feel entwined from his perspective or the perspective of whoever's guiding him. Anyway, whatever machine is in him or whatever reconstituted clone parts are in him, he's not a real person. He did not survive being eaten by a sandworm and he has been forged for somebody's

And I've been thinking, you've had your eye on the Empress since the beginning. Mm-hmm. And she's been in your crosshairs. And you have been monitoring her closely. Mm-hmm. Now, she is, uh...

quite taken with Desmond and everything that he can do for her, for their house, for their mission. Yeah. And their standing in the Imperium. And it was interesting to me that she provided these surveillance cards because, of course, that was how Haviko first watched the thing that happened. Haviko. Haviko. First watched the thing that happened to Desmond when we were like, who left that card there? Yeah, who left that? Yeah. So did Desmond

Did Talia leave it there? Like, how does she have all of this? Still this question of if she's the one guiding and hoping or if someone else or some other body, which we'll get to, has deployed Desmond and she is the happy recipient of the weapon that has fallen into her lap in the palace. So, yeah, it seems like this is what's happening here. Yeah.

You know, we got a nice touch of seeping back blood and a little comment about the pain leading him to the emperor. But what else led him there, Jo? Yeah, what did lead him there? We should note that in the images of the various prophecies that we saw in the first two episodes,

We kept seeing this, like, red crimson dress, the blood trailing behind it and stuff like that. And we should note that Natalia's back in red. And, like, she's standing in soft focus behind him as he's burning people inside of this episode, dressed in crimson in close proximity to the throne. So...

At this point, I'm a little worried that they're pushing it like a little too much that I'm like, oh, no, now I'm not sure that this is right because. Yeah. But it's only a six episode season, so we don't have a lot of time to shilly or shally. But I did have some questions, you know, because she has direct conversations with him in a way that makes it seem like she doesn't.

know him. But like, I don't know. I'm less enamored of that theory that I was so into earlier, but I'm not ready to give it up. I did enjoy when she was like, all this talk of shows of strength and yet you're here behind a desk. Just like, everyone's got work to do. Okay? Listen, speaking of work to do, Valia did collect some blood

So CSI Wallach 9 is something to look forward to. And if he is indeed a Gola, a clone of some kind, hopefully their tech back in Wallach 9 will reveal that, reveal what he is. I mean, that's the other thing that made it seem like that was where we were heading. Because, like, what else will the...

He's my son! What else will cross-indexing that, right, against the breeding index reveal other than a potential tie to one of those people? But it feels like that's still the strand that's open for Lila in terms of like, okay, well, we know Dorotea was her grandmother, but who's the mother? Like, we still have to find that out, right? That's still like a mystery. That's an open question, again, with two episodes remaining in the show. So it's certainly possible that Desmond could be

a sister's child and that they will learn that but it feels more likely that they're going to say oh we got some like someone grew this tissue in a petri dish and then in a tank alright next question are you telling me Theo

is a faceless man, aka, actually, I mean a face dancer. And in this case, listen, I know you guys were a little shirty about how often we compared this show to Game of Thrones. And that's fine. You can feel that way. In this case, I'll say, George definitely stole this from Dune. So... Faceless men? Face dancers? Frank Herbert did it first. Okay. Yes. Theo Theodosia is a face dancer. It was confirmed via interviews with the actress. Yeah.

And I want to recommend that folks check out Megan O'Keefe's coverage of this show over on Decider because she basically interviewed all the guys. It's just like rolling out these mini interview articles throughout the season, doing a great job as Megan always does. But Megan in her write-up about this pointed out that we've got, if Theo, a face dancer...

has been recruited into the Bene Gesserit. It's quite the coalition building because we have a Fremen woman inside of the Bene Gesserit spying for them and also a Sukh Doctor who we saw in last week's episode. So we all are welcome at the Bene Gesserit to spy for us across the galaxy. Here's what we know. In season one, episode one, we heard

From Valia about Theodosia, we took her in when she had nowhere else to turn. And then in episode two, when Valia's like, Theo, you're with me. Theo says, you're aware of my circumstances. And then Valia says, I wouldn't ask if the situation weren't dire. So I guess the circumstances are...

Face dancing and that she never wants to do it again. Like this isn't something she wants to do. We don't know exactly why, but she doesn't want to do it again. And she does it nonetheless for Valia at the end of this episode. Here's some,

some intel. In case you guys saw this on Sunday, we're confused and waited until Tuesday for us to explain it to you, just in case. Here we go. In the book, space dances are genetically engineered humans made by an organization called the Benny Ployleks.

which Ben Lindbergh valiantly attempted to pronounce last week, and that is my interpretation. Do you want to give it a try? Well, so on the little inside the episode at the end, Jordan Goldberg said, Theo is an experiment, an early day experiment by the, and he said, Taloxin. Taloxin.

So I'm just going to go with that. Well, that's what they were before they were the Bene Tleilax. Yes, yes, yes, yes. They were the Tleilax. Oh, okay. Never mind. So I'm just going to go with Tleilax until we have no choice but to try the other association. Tleilax. Yeah. Don't force. They're not quite, they haven't given themselves the Bene, nor has the Bene Gesserit. They are the sisterhood, you know? You know what? This is a great, this is a great thing for us to consult an audio book on. Tleilax. I've heard, I've listened to,

That's right. Dune Messiah. Yeah, Dune Messiah on audiobook. Where they definitely say this, and every time they said it, I was like, well, that sounds like a hard word to say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Harder than Severance? Quits. Okay.

The Tlaxa are something of a male counterpart to the Benetezerite. And as with our discussion of the Gola question and Desmond, we have to acknowledge that the face dancers don't exist yet at this point in the book, according to Brian Herbert. But I kind of think the show is like, yeah.

For sure. We do what we like. Yes. Definitely. To your point of the Inside the Episode interview, this is like an early, it was like maybe the first face dancer. Perhaps.

And another thing to know is their skill goes beyond physical transformation. And this is a quote from the actress in that Decider interview. She says, quote, she knows how to read a room. She knows how to read people. She understands people. Being a face dancer, it's like being able to know and understand someone so much that you can then shapeshift into them. So she understands in every moment, in every scene with whoever she's talking to, what they need to say, what she needs to say in order to get what she wants or to get to that.

which is interesting. Yeah. But I would argue the show has not given me a lot of opportunity to like understand Theo on that level or, you know,

anticipate Theo in that way. You know, like that seems like an interesting concept that's being thinly used inside of the show. You know, this is like, I really agree. This is like high on my list of things that I think would really be gripping me if we had more time with the characters and for all of the acolytes, because, you know, we have this, we have this body, we have this organization, the Bene Gesserit that we come to the series with,

understanding and knowing the impact that this plan will have, right? Plan 10,000 years in the making. And so we hear refrains like sisterhood above all, but then we see not only the faction, the two early factions that are presented in the premiere, you've got your, your, your zealots and your non zealots. We have every single individual person's,

particular history and beliefs and so like this idea of the one that you were putting above the one the the benny jess right the thing that you're supposed to put above yourself maybe an individual person another acolyte or whomever that you bonded with your own sister perhaps your literal sister your blood sister or your sister you find and forge a relationship with um like what

What does it mean that Jen is the only one who didn't have the dream? That's fascinating. But we don't explore that at all. And Jen is like...

weirdly my favorite, even though we've spent like the least amount of time with her. I'm so intrigued. Yeah. I want to know more. And like these little kernels. To remind everyone, we got these little like snippets. Again, I think I called it like reading the Pokemon card of these acolytes, right? And it was like, Lila, a true empath, Tula's favorite. Theodosia, an acolyte, Valia's favorite with a sort of secret personality.

background. So we understand Lila and Theodosia. We understand sort of what they were getting out there. Emmeline, too pious. Okay. We saw that in this episode. She's ready to take up the Dorotea sort of, let's get out our, let's have Bible study in the middle of the day. And then Jen, an acolyte and too independent a thinker. I don't, what does that mean? Right. And like, so does that mean that she's

not susceptible to something that everyone else is susceptible to. Like, even in this episode, we hear Valia say, like, I had the same dream that Kasha had. It's like, that's a big fucking deal. It's impacting Valia? Yeah. But not Jen? And I was getting such when Sister of the Mother of Vila. Do you think Jen is actually a sandworm?

It's entirely possible. I mean, is Jen actually the pomegranate? It could be anything. It could be anything. When Avila and Tula are, they've kind of like done a role reversal, right, in the middle of the episode and gone like, the person in the duo who's like,

Don't spread fear. Keep it in house has swapped inside of their dynamic and everything that they were breaking down about the visions, the sketches, the fact that each of these on page one started from a more personal place before like the images all converged. Yeah. Um,

I was getting such, like, oh, the litany against fear is coming into play here, right? Vibes from all of that. Like, this idea that fear is the threat, that they have to fend off the fear, et cetera. It feels like that's going to be a part of it. I would, like, be surprised at this point if that's not a big focus in the next episode. If we don't end...

The season with them, like, chanting fears of my killers. Something like that, yeah. That's, like, yeah, not a part of the penultimate or the finale. So I'm, like, interested in all of that, and I am interested in, on a human level, like, what this feels like to, for Theo, because of the resistance that she expressed. And then I will say, like, one of the scenes in this episode that actually really did work for me was when she has taken Griffin's form and walks in, and Valia...

who earlier in the episode snapped a communication card of a message she was sending to her own sister, basically saying like, I need you. Like didn't want to, didn't want to show anyone any vulnerability. Yeah. Runs over and embraces like she knows that's Theo. Right. And so like the fact that then the conversation that, that unfolds works on two levels where we could, um,

We delude ourselves into thinking that Valia is actually reliving a moment of an actual conversation that transpired, right? I understand now what it took for you to come back here. And if you're willing to make the sacrifice, so will I. Because that's basically the conversation they had in the third episode. I'll do whatever it is you need me to do. Did I push you too far? Everyone makes their own choices, including me. And then when we realize that Thea was a face dancer and that's actually her, like, that was impactful, I thought, to see, like, what that tells us about

how she thinks, how they both think about sacrifice and how, like the stock that she puts in her relationship or maybe with or adoration of sacrifice

Valia. But we just haven't had, like... And that's part of why the third episode worked so well, because it's so rooted in young Valia, young Tula, and the choices that they have made about this order and their family and the place they came from before and the place they've decided to be, and what parts of that they carry still with them, even though, in theory, you're supposed to leave all that behind. And, like, even when the gasping, wheezing opening clips seem, like...

when Valia's like, I will not apologize for what I did. I will not apologize for my strength. And then builds towards saying, if you'd had the courage to follow me like Tula did, it wouldn't be the sisterhood that now towers in the Imperium. It would be House Harkonnen. It is just akin to outright saying, fuck sisterhood above all. That's not what this is for me. That's all so interesting. We just haven't gotten to languish in it all that much. Well, it's sisterhood above all. It's not the sisterhood. It's

The Harkonnen sisters, above all. Right. Which I like. Another, I don't think it's one of the emails that I collected today, but in terms of are we seeing the origin of XYZ, all this stuff, someone did ask if we thought the poison was

that we see Tula use in episode three, if that's like the origin of the Gom Jabbar poison. And if we're going to see like a, because the finale is called the high handed enemy, which is a Gom Jabbar reference. So it's just like, on the one hand, I like it. On the other hand, it's like, I was saying the origin of Face Dance, the origin of this, the origin of Gom Jabbar, you know, like all of that sort of stuff. So like, I don't, I don't know. Um,

Let's talk about Lila really quickly. She's got the good old... I do always get a kick out of it whenever they say put your hand in the box, though. Just every time.

But it's best when Leia seduces it, right? That's the best version. Are you scared of what Lila has become? She's got the old eyes of Vibad. Yeah. And our listener Dan says, Lila is currently immersed after episode three, right? So she was immersed in a tank of spice gas. If I remember correctly, Dan says, that's pretty much how you bake a guild's navigator. Do we think

There are already Navigators at the time of the show. Will Lila be the first? So Legends of Dune, which is a book by Brian Herbert, has a different origin story for the Guild Navigators. But I'm not sure that would stop this show. And the foundation of the Guild is a plot point in the loose source material that is Sisterhood of Dune. They can fold space. That's quite fun. So is this the origin of Guild Navigation inside of...

don't at me don't email me i know that there's different stuff in the books but inside the show is this how they're deciding to do that or leaving out the guild navigation part of it is it just this is what happens when you uh marinate in a spice bacta uh you know you just get

the guild navigation levels of Prussians sort of thing. I don't know if I'm ready for the bathing in the spice tank, but those, like, spice chips that they all got, do you think you can, like, order those with some gummies? I mean, those seem very intriguing to me. It's like, oh. Not until you get your charcoals, and then we'll see what you do. And then we'll see what I'm ready to draw. I...

Interesting. It had not occurred to me. I'm going to say no. I think that... Is it because we're on episode four of a six-episode season? In part for that reason. I think also just like, you know, the name of the episode being Twice Born and this question, this idea, the desperation with which Tula, the...

um implores lila to return to her and of course we have their personal affection and bond which was one of the conversations that i found uh quite moving and also completely harrowing when we realized that tula despite saying all of these very true things as in the prior episodes um

Was just outright manipulating Lila into making this choice. Like, holy fuck. But, you know, you think back to, like, the first episode. Go ahead. Well, my question is, whose word do we have? We have only Dorotea's word on at least an aspect of the manipulation, right? And do we think that Dorotea would tell the truth? So, in other words, it's possible that Tula actually thinks her mom is dead and waiting for her. Yeah. Yeah.

I suppose that is possible. You're right. I'm going to say she doesn't. I'm not saying it's probable. I'm just saying. Yeah, you're right. What's our source here? You know, consider yourself. Yeah, like agony ghoul. Great note. Yeah.

That's a great note, honestly. We're not truth-sayers, so I don't know. My new life goal, to become an agony ghoul. And just haunt those who have wronged me. It seems like a tough existence. I also, like you, found that the whole time.

Like so disturbing, but riveting. I like a dark, cool room. And that, that place looks kind of like a dark, cool, you know what I mean? Maybe soothing. No. Yeah. I'd crack a window if it were me, but you know, needs must. It's must. So, you know, when Desmond was describing his, uh,

Germany, the extent of which he is actually aware of, we don't really know, right? I felt reborn. That was how he described it, right? Different. I was no longer afraid. And so it feels to me like the thing that has happened to Lila is that

and Lila are two versions, perhaps crafted in different form, perhaps crafted in similar ways of this twice reborn force and power, and that they will be positioned to challenge each other by the people who are pulling their strings. And

And whether that's the endgame or leads toward then examination of, okay, we'll wait, like we've been talking about since the very beginning. This is a near-term reckoning. What else waits in the future? That's what I more think it is. Yeah, yeah. I mean, same. Same.

Same. I think it's that Tula thinks the twice-born means one thing, Valia thinks it means another, and actually it means something in the far future that neither of them will live to see. So, I mean, we have hopefully...

seen the Bene Gesserit train in their fighting for a reason. Like, are, you know, because you were like, oh, send Lila up against Desmond. I'm like, to be turned into ribbons? But, you know, they're trained, so. I don't know, just like poke him on the oozing back once and you can probably take him down. He's vulnerable. Yeah.

Oh my God. Also looks like he was working through a real migraine. You know? It did not. It did not. I was like, get the man a cool, dank, dark room. That's what he needed. Sit with the agony ghouls for a while. Oh man. But yeah, like it feels like we have like, you know, this, again, just this question of how all these different time periods connect and like the self-fulfilling prophecy, the reckoning here, the reckoning then, like the idea that

we're ushering in the story that's yet to come in an effort to thwart whatever awaits here feels just like kind of the mission of the show. I don't really know how to wrap my mind around that if it's supposed to be a multi-season thing, though. Because then the question of how far they get in the next two episodes and what is actually cemented for us versus just left open for us to noodle on, I'm not really sure. There's just not that much time left.

I mean, I assume we have to get another sex scene or two. One can only hope that in the episode. I did love the Tula Ori sex scene. Seb from Rivals. Great to see him. That whole sequence was wonderful. Yeah, really good. The whole Atreides in the woods thing was great. All right.

Oh, Albert, Oscar Tully canonically confirmed as Kieran's dad, right? In this episode, as you theorized. Yes. Yeah. So it is your fault, Tula. Yeah. Tula, did you think of me when the bull showed up and you were like, the white stag in the woods? Cool. Okay. I actually genuinely did. I know you did. I know. Okay. Two.

Two more questions to go. Are you enjoying the Palace Intrigue? We talked about this a little bit in terms of the Whisper Network, but also I just want to make sure that folks at home, again, once again, if you've been waiting a couple days for your lore download from us, know that it's significant that an Ixian was here in the...

assassination plot, the Ixion being a people who are like, Jihad says who? You'll pry my gadgets and gizmos aplenty out of my cold, dead hands. And something to think about when it comes to Dune Messiah, I'll say this without trying to give away any major plot from Dune Messiah, that book opens with

a gathering of people, only one of which we already know from the previous Dune novel. And there's a face dancer and there's an X and there's a guild navigator. Like all the things that we might be seeing the origins of are in that sort of meeting of people, an important sort of cabal that exists in Dune Messiah. And so I don't know what the

IP mandate is, you know, we talked about this a little bit when we talked about Penguin. Like, what did the Penguin show owe to the next Batman movie? And, you know, what can it do and what can't it do? And what does the Dune show owe to Dune Messiah? I don't think Denis Villeneuve is the kind of guy who's like, um,

hello, I demand you set up, you know, guild navigators and face dancers and this, that, and the other thing. Like, I don't, I know, sorry to, uh, Kepa Kwa everywhere, but like, um, I don't, I don't think that Denis is the kind of artist that would ask that, but I can, I can see Warner Brothers being the kind of company that would say like, let's do some lore homework for people inside of this TV show, you know? Yeah, for sure. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um,

The palace intrigue is my least favorite part of the show by a comfortable margin, and that's a bummer because it's the reason I was like – one of the reasons I was most excited for the show because like that's not one of the things there's been room for in the Villeneuve films, which as you know, I fucking love. Yes. I love those movies. I think they're astonishing. But –

the particular calibration, the scale, the scope, the spectacle. Like, there's, we don't get the great, like, have everybody over for dinner sequence when Leto and Jessica and Paul have first arrived on, like, Arrakis. We don't get scenes like that in those movies. Right.

And so that template Nelson got entirely cut out. Yeah. Yeah. Having that be like the, the focus of this, in addition to a prophecy driven show, asking questions about self-fulfilling prophecies, like was like catnip for, for me when I was like looking forward to the show. Yeah.

I think Deep House intrigue is just frankly not intriguing enough. And like some of it connects to what we were talking about earlier with the investment or lack thereof that we have in the stakeholders. If you don't care what happens to the participants, then how can you possibly be invested in the particular outcome of a plot or a scheme or a scheme or a plot if the reason that schemes and plots matter is because something happens to people as a result of them? So I saw someone try to compare

what happened with the Lanserad to like Cersei and the Sept of Baelor. And I was just like, with love and respect. Absolutely not. Not even remotely on the same level in like a million different ways. And one small way.

And, you know, I call this out on Rings of Power and I think it's important to do it. Like, I understand budgets. I understand all sorts of stuff. But like that room was so small. Like this is this is the meeting of the Imperium in like a. Yeah. A tiny little council chamber. You know what I mean? It didn't seem grand in any kind of way. Like someone would hear Kieran like.

Pull the grade out. Yeah, absolutely. It's basically a conference room. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's a great point. I think – so you said that you liked watching the Whisper Network with the sisters. You know, I weirdly, like, didn't. And I'm trying to – I think the reason –

I think the reason is because it was, it felt very much like we're like, oh, okay, this is a moment that we are supposed to feel like we've built toward, right? We've heard, this was something we lamented in the first pod we did, we've heard, right, the old, like, show don't tell. Well, we had been told a lot about the way that the Bene Gesserit was puppeteering and controlling and guiding affairs across the Imperium.

To actually get to see... And we had some moments where we saw that, like watching Kasha and the House for Chase truth-sayer engage in their little hand signals and in real time kind of figure out how to manipulate their two lords was, like, I thought, interesting. This tipped a little too far to me into, like, okay, we're supposed to feel like, ah, we finally get to see it in action. But the thing that I kept thinking was, like,

I can't accept that everybody's that easily worked. You know, like I'm waiting for any one of those lords to be like, why do you care this much? Why are you guiding me this hard toward this one recommendation? I think that's fair. It just felt a little – I feel like I need to believe for the Bene Gesserit to achieve what it's going to achieve, that they're a little bit subtler as operators. This felt very, like, obvious to me.

I mean, I don't know. I mean, early days, right? I suppose they can only get better at their craft. I don't disagree with you on some of that. I didn't feel any sort of like anticipatory, like, ah, this is what I've been waiting for. I didn't feel like it was like built up that much. So maybe the stakes were lower for me. But I think that like, I think you're right that it would have benefited the plot to see...

one person be like, no, you know, like I'm not going to do that. I was thinking of how many times somebody on the other end of like a Littlefinger or Varys maneuver is like, what are you angling for? Yeah. But I think also...

on the other side of that, I'm like, Valia can't be this bad at everything, but she's constantly bailing. Sure. So, yeah, it's a conundrum. All right, last but not least. Okay. Are you dreaming? I don't know. We already mentioned the dream a bit, but I just thought it was worth talking about. Yeah. Arrakis, you see Shai Halud, my pal Shai Halud is here. Yep. The dream

The best. The glowy and blue dots of light. Okay, so a very popular theory, and I will say this without saying what this means for fear of spoiling future Dune things for people, is that they think that the glowy blue eyes are related to, I'll just say the words, God Emperor. Yeah. But I think that the...

I think the smarter theory is that...

These are either literally Desmond's eyes or something else because we've seen the blue light again and again and again associated with the AI, the thinking machines. We see it in the codex at the Bene Gesserit compound. We see it inside the little toy that got a kid barbecued. We see it inside the little assassination drone. Yeah.

Short unhappy run for Sam Spruill, by the way, inside of this show. What a waste. I know. What a waste. We barely knew you. What? A waste of Sam Spruill. But so I think that blue, it just looks blue and electronic and we hear sort of like electronic sounds. Yeah. When we see it. Just like that. Can you do it again?

yep yep there it is oh there's a very like grinding of a gear so i think the matter theory here is that you know what what we're seeing here uh is the oncoming storm that is desmond heart rather than um the god emperor but you know i'm willing to be wrong i often am um anything else you want to say about the dream sequence we already talked about it a bit um

HBO, if you want to do the funniest thing, you can send Mallory some spice chips for Hanukkah. And we'll thank you for it. Anything else you want to say about this episode, this show? Could it win you back with the final two episodes? Not only could it, I hope it does. I hope Springs Eternal. I want to love the show. That's my desire because I remain...

very high on the promise of what a Dune expanded universe in the streaming era could be. Yeah. And so, yeah, I hope it's a strong finish.

I hope it's either a strong finish that leads to the continuation of the story, or if it's not going to continue on and we end on a whimper, okay. I think the worst outcome actually, weirdly, would be a strong finish and then that's it. And you're like, ah, we had just enough to know that there was some promise and then no more. If Ben were here, he'd invoke the acolyte. Yeah.

Remember Man of Jacinto and the Acolyte? Vividly. Wow. Okay. Fondly. That does it for our coverage of the Sufferance trailer and also Dune Prophecy, a show that we will wrap up in time for the finale. That episode will probably drop right on that Sunday night, if all goes according to plan. You can expect no waiting, just an immediate finale reaction from us that Sunday night. We have a lot of things planned upcoming, but we also...

I don't know if you heard, but Mallory helped build an entire new website this year. So she gets an actual holiday vacation. So if, if our offering is okay, well, she at least doesn't have to talk to me for a week. Uh, at the end of the, that's the joy of my life. Um, but, uh, yeah, but we'll be around. We'll, we'll have, we'll have some treats for you before the end of the year. We've got some like year end traditions to do, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah.

But that's it for Craven us today. It's Craven, your favorite film of the year. Thank you to everyone. Thank you to Molly Rubin. I love you. You're the best. You're the best. Will I see you tomorrow for Craven? Only tell Adam I'll meet you for dinner. And we'll be back for Skeleton Crew later on this week where, I mean,

I've seen the episode. You haven't. There's just a lot more. There's just a lot more Jude Law. And that's all I'll say about that. Oh, my God. I can't wait. Thanks to Carlos Chiriboga, who is filling in for our guy, Steve Allman, and all of our love and love, love, love to Steve Allman. I love you, Steve. I love you, Steve. I love you, Carlos. I love you, Carlos. For sure. What a squad. To John Richter and Cameron Dinwiddie for the work on video. Torjano Ramgopal.

My absolute beloved Arjuna, who made sure when I was in town recording, every recording he was also there, he brought me a crisp, cold Cranras. No, Friats. Cranras beverage of my choice. You can decide at home what that was. There was always one waiting for me. Thank you, Arjuna. Always. I felt like the only person I've ever seen that happen for is Robert Downey Jr., who always has like

the the precise like gum and drink and water that he wants placed in front of whatever table he's about to sit down and i've seen that happen i felt like i felt like downy in the moment did you say i am iron man when you cracked one open i think it was implied um and last but never the least joe me a dinner on our guy joe me um we're back later this week we love you all bye