IFH 780: Unforgettable Storytelling: Phillip Andrew on Creativity, Leadership, and Resilience
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You are listening to the IFH Podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifhpodcastnetwork.com. Welcome to the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, episode number 780. Cinema should make you forget you're sitting in a theater. Roman Polanski.

Broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood, it's the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, where we show you how to survive and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of the film biz. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Hustle Podcast. I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Today's show is sponsored by Rise of the Filmtrepreneur, how to turn your independent film into a profitable business.

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Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis. On this week's episode of the podcast, we have a guest from LA. Where else? Again, we met through the power of Twitter. And this guest and I are going to be talking all about what an education really means. We talk about college education. We talk about moving out to LA, the ups, the downs.

You know, pretty brutal, honest interview, as my guest shares a lot of his downs and, you know, how he actually networked. And it wasn't the traditional ways and just finding through all of this sort of maze of things. And the whole concept of this interview is going to be unforgettable storytelling as we kind of talk a lot about the different methods of storytelling and, you know,

directly and indirectly a lot of the other things that go on here. And what ideas stick, what ideas don't stick, unreliable narrators, all that good stuff. So without further ado, with guest, Philip Andrew. Oh man, you got to be careful who you meet on the interwebs, man. You know, isn't it crazy that...

Years ago, it was weird to go online dating. You were told to never take rides with strangers. Now our entire world is based around Uber and Lyft and jumping in the cars with strangers. That's completely okay. Nobody even knows how to meet each other in person anymore. You've got to swipe right, swipe left to meet anyone. Things have changed so quickly. It's insane.

Yeah, I mean you're encouraged now to trust strangers. Like put all your faith and your bodily harm in strangers. It's kind of crazy. Oh, man. I remember I went to – so I'm here. I'm out here in Los Angeles, and I remember going to a party.

And we go to this party and it's kind of like at the base of like the Hollywood Hills. It's like a nice house but nothing too insane. And we go to this house and we're like kind of like, yo, what is this party for? Like who is it? Someone's birthday? What is it? And they're like, oh, no, it's this like new startup app. And we're like, what the hell is that? And they're like, oh, well, it's like here. And they handed me a pen. Like the only party gifts were like a pen with the logo on it. Like you would get at some – you know, at like a trade show. And I look at it and I'm like, wow.

lift. I go, what the hell is lift? And they go, oh yeah, man, it's like this app where you can, you know, you can get rides from people that are already going the way that you're going. And I was like, so you get in a car with a stranger and they're like, uh, yeah. And I was like, this is the dumbest idea ever. It'll never work. And

And then years later, I'm the guy who has to sit here and be like, oh, I guess I'm not that much of an innovator. I'm surprised they actually gave away pens because an idea for me, if you're going to do a launch like that, you'd give away –

like a service. So you would say, Hey, this is the service. This is Lyft. And you would kind of demonstrate it. You know what I mean? Cause pens, I think pens are kind of, I mean, don't get me wrong. I still use pens every day, but, but pens, I just don't know if they really have the same marketing branding powers they once had. You know what I mean? Yeah. You know what I mean? It's just like, I don't think people look at that and go, Oh man, I got to use Lyft now that I'm using their pen. Come on.

Right. Yeah, it's kind of it's kind of crazy. So but yeah, it was I always try to remember that anytime that I want to anytime my first immediate reaction is to want to like rip something apart, you know, then I'm like, wait a minute.

Think in a different world where maybe this could work. How would it work? Why would people – and it just forces me. I think in life you always have those examples of things that happen when you were completely and utterly wrong. And so it's like it reminds me to be like, all right, don't try to crush this dream or don't try to – don't veto this idea. Really give it a little bit of time. Think it through and see if there is something there rather than just giving snap judgments on stuff.

So I try to use it as like a life lesson, I guess. Yeah, right. So and, you know, when you saw these new apps come out now, you kind of wonder how it all ties in together because, you know, with all these apps coming out, you go, my God, there's so many out there and there's so many different social media channels. It's like, you know, what catches on, what doesn't. And that's why there's so many books now written about this stuff, about business and about, you know, ideas that catch. There's actually a book called Sticky and it's actually about what ideas stick and what doesn't and why that is.

Oh, no way. I'm reading a book right now called Sticky Marketing. Oh, Sticky Marketing. I don't know if it's the same one. Yeah. But it could be. I did see that. Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, like, I know they've had tons of studies come out with, like, what makes something memorable? What, how do you, you know, how do you help things add to your memory? What makes something emotional? What is the best, you know, for us as storytellers, it's like always trying to figure out exactly, like, what is going to resonate with people?

with that target audience what's gonna stick with them what is it that they like

You know, what is it that they remember? You know, even we talk about it, you know, from speaking standpoints when, you know, so often people will go in and they could go to a conference and have a great time. And then you'd be like, oh, what did the speaker talk about or who is the speaker? And they'll go, oh, I don't know. But he told this story about blah, blah, blah. And it's like that's people don't remember the names necessarily. They don't even remember where the information came from. They remember these powerful stories.

And I think that's really important for us to realize, like, anytime that, anytime you're, whether you're in marketing or advertising or, you know, for us in TV or wherever, like, it's important to tell great stories that people want to hear.

repeat. Even before we had things to write down and before we had TV way back in the day, that's how things got told. That's how we taught people how to behave. What was the proper way to handle certain situations? How do you stay motivated? It was all through story. It was all through generational storytelling. I think it's important that we don't ever allow ourselves to get so caught up in the technology that we forget that

Wow.

At the core, at the root of it, the most important thing is still storytelling and telling a great, captivating, memorable story. And if you don't have that, it doesn't matter how cool the footage is. It doesn't matter how great the audio is. If you're not saying something that is worth people wanting to hear and wanting to repeat, then what the hell are we doing?

Yeah, it's sort of like the story behind, you know, even the story you tell within the company, right? So there's a story that, you know, the managers and directors and all that, they have to tell everybody. It's like being on a film set, you know, because we're, you know, we're both in the same industry. So if you're the director, you want to be able to sort of, you must create that, I guess, zeitgeist is the right word I'm looking for, right? We want to create that sort of, you know, feeling on set. Totally.

And it's almost like the story you're telling them. You know, there's a quick anecdote I want to tell. A friend of mine was working on a film with Spike Lee. And Spike Lee actually got in front of everybody the day that they started filming. And he actually, he goes, this was like a whole different Spike. And he was like, hey, you know what? If we all work together and do all this together, we're going to make a damn good film.

And he was like, man, because this spike is awesome because it's like, you know, he's up there telling a story about how we're all going to work together and we're all just going to make this amazing thing. And it was and it's going to be fantastic. And that really stuck with all the crew after that, after Spike did that.

I think that's, I think it's key, right? It's like, and I think there's, you know, we, we, you study, I've studied a lot. I like the great, uh, you know, battle, you know, war, war, like generals and people that led people into massive wars. And, you know, people don't want to fight for someone when, from the comfort of their own home. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show.

You know, like they want to they want to feel like their leader is out in front, like their leader is there and is willing to go through the battle with them, you know, and I think that's so important. I think that was great that that Spike did that. I had a moment. I remember I had a director, you know, executive producer, showrunner that I was working with on a project. His name was Phil Lott.

And Phil was an amazing guy. And one of the first things I ever saw Phil do, and I still can picture this to this day, we're running around the craziness of getting the first day and getting the shots set up.

And I remember in all the craziness, for some reason, I look over and I see Phil, and there was a plug for a light that needed to get plugged in, and it was underneath a table. And Phil has been in the industry for 20, 25 years. He's won tons of awards, very, very talented people.

And he doesn't, he's got his walkie. He easily could have said, you know, Hey, you know, Phil for an available PA, I need somebody to, you know, come plug this light in. And it would have been normal. It would have been fine. It would have, no one would have thought anything of it.

But I sat there and watched the showrunner of the project get down on his hands and knees, crawl underneath a table, plug this light in, and then crawl back from underneath the table and started adjusting the light. And I remember it was young in my career. I was probably only 24, 25. And I remember just seeing that. And it had... I mean, here it is. I'm still telling the story. It had a profound impact on me because I knew...

Man, I'm working for a guy that's willing to do the work too. You know, he's not just some guy up here shouting orders He's not just some guy that wants to sit back and give his coffee and make everyone else do it He's willing to go he's willing to do the work too And it made me that much more excited to want to work with him and learn from him because I understood man that's the type of guy he is and that's the type of guy that I want to help see win and

And I think that was so it's great that Spike did that. I mean, I like I said, I think that's really important that people, you know, the stories that we tell ourselves and also like the way that we show up to other people and and how we how we are perceived and what we do. We we want to make people want to win with us.

You know, and I think when you can do that, when you can have everybody on a team that is working towards one common goal, I think it's a really powerful thing and you can achieve a lot of really great stuff. Yeah. You have to lead by example and not be one of those guys just barking on orders. You know, I mean, and we've all been on those film sets, too, where, you know, maybe a student film I see a lot in. You know, I used to work with a lot of student filmmakers and it's the kind of.

I guess maybe they kind of feel like they kind of need to micromanage and they kind of use that as a way of directing or they, and professionals do that too. I mean, how, you know what I mean? So it's one of those things where you want to lead, you want to let people know that you're kind of there. You kind of have to be the mother and the father, so to speak. You know what I mean? You kind of have to say, hey, we're a team, we're going to do this right. And also you got to be the father and be like, all right, let's pull up our sleeves and kind of get this done.

Definitely. I think that's why, with him, with Spike, doing that at the beginning of shooting, I think setting the tone is so very, very important. So yesterday, I'm producing a new project for a large digital media platform, and I

It was our first day on set and I scheduled a 30-minute meeting that probably only needed to be 10. But it was the first day of filming and I scheduled this 30-minute meeting and I went over everything with everyone. We went over safety. I went over expectations, made sure everyone was introduced, everyone knew who was leading what departments, and really just set expectations so that people knew if you have a problem, where to go, etc.

I walked people through creative, which a lot of times, especially in what we do, not everyone needs to know all of the creative points or exactly the schedule for every little thing. But I really wanted, especially on day one, I wanted everyone to be on the same page, to know what we were doing, interact.

to feel that level of comfort and teamwork because I've been on shows before where you come in day one and it's like they expect, hey, it's the first day of filming. We're going to do an hour of ESU equipment setup and then we're going to be filming. And it's like I don't even know who in the heck to ask for anything. I didn't meet anyone. I don't know. I walk up to somebody and ask if they know where the coffee is and it's the director. So it's one of those things where it

It's really important, I think, to set that tone early on. And then when you do that, I think it gives you a little bit more leeway. Like I have a tendency to be a little bit more high energy. You know, I get nervous sometimes. I get, you know, sometimes I get my emotions. My emotions start to kind of take over at times before I check, put them in check. And I always let people know. I go, hey, look, I want you to know.

Any bit of me that is micromanaging is not coming out of a place of not feeling like you can do your job. It's just that I have a bad memory sometimes. And as soon as things pop in my brain and I want to know if it's happening, I'll ask you. And please never take offense to that. It's not coming from a – and I always let people know. If I actually am having an issue where I'm –

Maybe I'm feeling like things could be stepped up. I will come to you and I will tell you. I will be 100% honest and open at every point with that stuff. And I think people appreciate that because at least they know – like there's no – I don't want to be the person that they don't know where I stand. Where they're like, oh, I don't know how he feels about me. Like I want people to know that I have their back. I'm there to support them.

If there's a way that we can be doing it better, let's figure it out together. But if it's just me being crazy, like that's just kind of part of my personality and I will do my best to diminish it and be respectful or, you know, I and just I'll do my best to diminish it and not seem like a crazy person. But, you know, we all have our moments. And I think coming from the beginning and just setting the tone of all of that on set is so important so that everybody knows where they stand and what's going on.

So just with taking all that, Philip, what was the worst Onset experience that you've ever had?

The worst on set experience. Like and you don't have to get like too much into details, but maybe I'm not looking for you like name drop or anything. Sometimes when people hear stuff like that, they're like, oh, man, I can't tell the story. I'm like, no, no, just I want to hear more about the situation rather than the person, you know, and how do you how do you resolve stuff like that? Because whether it be like, you know, an issue with a person on set or a location falling through any of that stuff, you know what I mean?

Oh, yeah, man. Oh, dude, locations. Locations falling through happen so much that we can't... I can't even...

You know it's not even a big deal anymore I remember hearing I worked this is this is actually a cool fun story that that I'll tell and then I'll get back to mine But like I worked on a project a few years ago with Wes Craven there we go name-drop But no what he was such a he was such a great dude, and he's so talented and so caring But I remember we were on set and we were shooting this project that was kind of like a horror horror film directors competing against one another and

And I remember they were having an argument on set. Like one of the teams were trying to fire their director and replace it with another one, and they were all arguing and fighting. And I remember one of the directors stood up and was like, you know, this is BS. I don't want to be a part of this anymore. Like I don't even – like this isn't – it's not going as planned. And Wes immediately said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Who told you it was going to ever go as planned?

And he took it and he had a moment where he was like – he took a coachable moment and was like, look, when we were filming Scream, like I guess the story goes like a few days before they got ready to film. Like they're like 72 hours out from filming. And if anybody knows this, and I'm telling the wrong story, please correct me, but this is my way of – this is my understanding of how it went down. About 72 hours, 36, 72 hours before they started filming Scream.

The high school that had signed off on everything that they were going to film at, someone from the school board finally read the script. Like they had approved it, but no one read the script. And then they read it and they're like, whoa, no way. We are not allowing this to be filmed at our high school. And they pulled out the high school, the location pulled out like 36, 72 hours before they were supposed to film.

And they had to scramble and find a whole new – that's not an easy ask. That's not like, oh, we need another coffee shop down the street. That's a massive – anyone that's ever booked locations knows how – the bigger the location, those are difficult things. There's a lot of people that have to sign off on that.

And so a lot of work went into it, and then all of a sudden it just – that's how quickly things can change. And if you sit around and if you get worried, if you just – if you focus on problems, you're done. If that's all that you focus on, if you are a person that only sees problems, you're going to get crushed.

If you can be the person that sees solutions everywhere, opportunities everywhere, possibilities, now you're adding to the winning success. Now you can get into a thing where you're doing well. And I think that that's something that you have to do. I tell this story a lot. One of my first bosses is an amazing executive producer. His name is Eli Holzman, and I love the guy. He's amazing.

We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. And I told the story earlier and it's funny that I'm telling it again. But, you know, I asked him when I was early in my career, I was probably 23 years old. And I asked him, hey, man, what is you know, is there something of advice that you can give me? And he said, you know, just always be always bring solutions. Don't bring problems. You know, if the car breaks down, don't come to me and say the car broke down.

Come to me and say, hey, man, the car broke down, but we have option A, and we can either pay $400 to get another car out here. Option C is pay – or option B is $600 to have somebody come out and fix it, and it's going to take two hours. Or option C is we just drive it into the LA River, and then we never – we act as if it never happened, right? Like he always talked about solutions, solutions, solutions, solutions.

And just that, I mean, that, that lesson has been monumental for me because yeah, the first instinct is when something goes bad is to want to shut down and get sad and angry and kick, kick things. And, and, you know, you want to blame someone like it's just human nature. Like we're all these little kids that now have grown up pants on. And so we want to get mad. But, you know, now I think that's the biggest thing for me is just always knowing, like, no matter how bad it gets, there's a way to get through it.

And you have to be able to find the solution instead of focusing on the problem. Yeah, it's the art of problem solving as I've been saying on the podcast before is how do you solve a problem without creating an equal or greater problem than the one you're trying to solve?

And, uh, and being a problem solver rather than a problem spotter, you know, I mean, you get those people on set, man, where, where they, you hire them as crew and they come up to you and they would say, Hey, Philip, uh, you know, this, this location fell through, uh, the car got a flat tire. What should we do? And you're like, well, you're supposed to be here helping me. Yeah. I mean, come on. Yeah. It's always a little frustrating at times because, um,

You know, I try to really let people, you know, you really empower, you want to empower people. You know, you want to let people know that, you know, you act as if, I remember I had somebody tell me when I was young in my career, he's like, yo, you got to act as if, like, if you don't do this, it's not going to get done. So what would you do? You know, and really, like, I think most of us, when we don't take that action, it's either, you know,

we just don't care right like we don't care about it and we're super you know degap about it we just don't care anymore or we're afraid and we're afraid we'll make the wrong decision and we want somebody to back us up and we're you know or so it's like almost you know i remember with somebody uh i read it in a book once uh brendan bouchard had this quote and it was like when action is required and a person doesn't act at best they're lazy and at the worst they're a coward

And it's like, man, like I could use that for any life, but to, to make that to, how do we relate that to set? It's like, there are those times where it's like, if you're not willing to make a decision, you know, you're being lazy or you're being a coward. And I've had to do that with myself many times. And especially in as much as I try not to be the guy that like hangs on money or finances and things like that. But there are times where I I've stopped and been like, yo dude,

They're paying you a decent amount of money to make these decisions. Like, do it. Like, figure it out. Like, this is on you. Like, you can't just, you know, like for me, it's like you're not a PA anymore. You don't get to just, you know, sit there and, yeah, and do exactly what you're told. Like, as a PA, that's what it is. Being a PA, production assistant, is all about that.

Be quiet, be friendly, smile, do everything that's asked of you, and kind of stay out of the way but be there and help as much as – you're an extra set of hands. When you start producing projects and directing projects and taking on greater responsibility and the money is there and you're getting paid, you have to be able to make a decision. And it's like by sitting by and doing nothing –

Or only, like you said, being the person that only brings up problems. You're not going to be the person that gets hired back or that gets a reputation of being the guy who can fix problems. And it's like if you can be someone that fixes problems or sees problems and fixes them before they even happen, you know, like every firefighter would love to be there moments before the fire gets set.

You know, because once it gets out of hand, then it's a lot of work. It's like if you can be the person that notices and knows how to fix things early on before it becomes this raging, you know, fire, then you're going to keep getting work. And that's what it comes out. You're going to keep getting work and you're going to make projects more fun and enjoyable to work on. Yeah.

Yeah, I think, yeah, your point was great. And then I decided to talk for 15 minutes. So no, no, it's all good. It's all good, Philip. And I want to ask you, too, about how, you know, how you got started in all this, because, you know, you mentioned Wes Craven. You mentioned working with Phil a lot. So I wanted to ask, you know, you grew up in Michigan and you moved out to L.A. You know, so so at what age did you decide to move out to L.A.?

Yeah, so I was about nine. You know, I'm that kid, dude. I grew up 10 minutes from downtown Detroit, just outside of southwest Detroit. And I've always been that Midwest kid, just in love with everything movies, everything California. You know, I joke that I wanted to be – I wanted to live the movie clueless. Like I legit wanted to be like –

That guy, I grew up watching that movie with my sister and I just loved it. I wrote a paper when I was 13 about moving to California. So I think that dream has always been there. But for me, I got media productions and creating. I did a little bit of theater when I was younger.

And so I was just always around creating entertainment. And so when I went, I went to Michigan State University after I graduated from high school and, you know, went out, started, you know, did the business thing for a while because obviously I was terrified of putting all my eggs in one basket of entertainment. But I moved. I,

I ended up messing up my GPA pretty bad. I joined a fraternity, started drinking and partying, and that became a whole other story for a different podcast.

But, you know, things kind of ended up where I screwed my GPA up so much at Michigan State that it was going to take me a few more semesters to get into the business school. So I said, you know what? I had already started taking my film classes, my film and TV and radio, and I loved that stuff. And that was where I felt like I really came alive and really enjoyed it.

I was like, I'm going to go after this and see what I can do. And, you know, I was lucky enough to be able to do a couple of internships and really get some things finished. And I was able to finish college a semester early at State and was getting ready to move out to L.A.,

excuse me, I was getting ready to move out to Los Angeles and 11 days before I moved to LA, I got popped for a DUI and it drastically affected my ability to move to California. So it took me a year to kind of get everything squared away with the courts and kind of my path with alcohol abuse and all that stuff. That's a whole nother story. But so I ended up going to, I stayed in Michigan for a little while. I worked at a radio station and

And then when I was 23, I was 23 is when I moved out to Los Angeles. I had never been West of Wisconsin. I didn't really know anyone. There were a couple of kids that went from my high school that were, you know, five or six years older. So I did have one or two people that I could at least kind of ask some sort of advice on, but I really didn't know anything. I didn't know what I was doing. Didn't really even know if I wanted to do film TV. I was still in the mindset that

You know, 20 people got in a room and came up with an idea and then they worked into, you know, made it like I didn't understand the industry at all. I did not understand how segmented things were. I didn't know how different it was to work in TV versus, you know, TV versus commercial versus movies. I didn't even know reality. Like, I didn't even really know what reality TV was. You know, I'd seen the real world and some of that stuff.

But I didn't even realize how different and segmented a lot of the industry was.

So I get to California and I move out. I don't know what in the hell I'm doing. I get a job working at Vitamin Shop. I get a job working at PacSun. I was doing extra work. I was doing – I've been a DJ since I was 17, so I was DJing. And I'm just doing all this stuff. I'm doing clerical work in office buildings and just trying anything to just make rent and make it work. And I'm sitting here one day. I remember calling my dad and I'm like –

I've got a four-year degree from a Big Ten university, and I'm sitting here folding little kids' board shorts and selling old women Metamucil. What is going on in my life? I'm never going to get hired. And this was right in 2009, right in the middle of the writer's strike out here in Los Angeles. So work was tough.

And I remember going, I would just go door to door at places and I would go door to door at production companies trying to meet them. I'd go to work, I'd go to the gym, I'd go play basketball and then I would rinse and repeat. And that was my cycle of what I would do. And I wish I could tell you that one of those production companies called and wanted to hire me. I wish I could say that one of my job interviews went well. I met a guy playing basketball and I was having a really good game and I was pissing him off because I kept scoring.

We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. So we were battling back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. The game ends. We start talking. He ends up being a Midwest kid. We start talking a little bit. He's getting ready to get promoted as soon as he found somebody to take his assistant job. And he brings me in the interview. I get the interview and I start talking.

And that was my very first job was from a guy working or playing basketball at the park. And that guy, his name is Kevin Bartell. He's a great friend of mine still. He runs a production company now here in Los Angeles. And, you know, he's he's such a rock star. He's amazing. And like we met playing basketball there.

And like, that's how it was for me. And I started, I got that first job and the job was me taking the assistant job for the guy, Eli, that I spoke about earlier. And, you know, the first show we were doing when I started, they were, they had just finished post on the first episode, the first season of a show called Undercover Boss on CBS.

And which was a massive show that at the time no one had heard of. So I was like working at a production company no one had heard of on a show no one had ever heard of. And then it blew up and it was like that was my first job. I just got, you know, but the thing I always tell kids, like I'll try to mentor kids from Michigan State and I go, hey, look, I can't tell you to go play basketball every day. That's where it's going to be. But what I can say is.

If it wouldn't have been Kevin, if I wouldn't have met Kevin on the basketball court, I would have met somebody at the gym. Or I would have met someone at an alumni event. Or one of those production companies I would have went in would have eventually worked out. It's like you don't always know what path is going to open. You don't know what door is going to open forever.

But that's why you just bang on a ton of doors and you just – I always tell people the best thing you can do is just let people know what you want to do. Let them know that you're just hungry and ready and you don't know. Yeah, hey, I don't have a ton of experience, but I'm excited to learn. I'm ready to get into it. How do we make this whole thing happen? I'm in.

And I think that the attitude, I don't know, when I hire PAs, I hire on attitudes more than I hire on your experience. You know, like, what's your resume going to tell me?

What, that you are really good at getting water? Or that you're going to get coffee? Or you can lift 50 pounds over your head? It's more about your personality and how you... What do I see out of you? Are you hungry? Do you want to learn? Are you ready to really get in this thing? Or are you just like...

I'm in LA, whatever. Like, you know, my buddy, my buddy works on the show. So I guess I can work here. Like I want people that are excited, you know, cause I know how I was when I was starting out.

I know how eager and excited I was. So yeah, maybe selfishly, like I want to hire that. I want to hire, you know, uh, you know, people that are excited to be around this because I love it. You know, I love it so much. I want to be around other people that love it. And it's like, there's so many people that do care and want to make entertainment and they're passionate about it that like, I don't want to hire people that are just there looking at it as a paycheck, you know?

Yeah, you can teach somebody how to do a job, but you can't teach them how to be a good person.

Totally. Yeah, which is something I've learned too because I made the mistake one time, Phil. Should I call you Phil or Phillip? Which do you prefer? Hey, whatever feels right, man. I jump back into it. You know what? People ask me that all the time and I joke like when I hit 30, I was like, I guess I'm Phillip now. Or somebody told me the other day on set, they were like, well, once somebody – like once someone is your superior, you call them Phillip. And I go, I don't know how this is going. Right.

Or I'll say if you're from the UK, you have to call me Philip because it just sounds better in that accent. But no, man, Phil, Philip, whatever is easiest, whatever works, man. It's all good. Yeah, definitely. Philip sounds better with a British accent. I will admit that. But everything sounds better with the British accent. So on set, you know, I have everyone call me. I have everyone call me Bullis.

because that's every all my friends call me Bullis everywhere and they're just like Bullis I'm like yeah just call me Bullis don't call me Dave or David that's fine just call me Bullis

Because it's a strong name. You know what I'm saying? It's a great last name. What's the background? What's your family's heritage? So on my mom's side, it's Swedish and Irish. And on my dad's side, it's...

English, particularly from Wales, and that's actually where the last name comes from, by the way. It's English. It means someone who tends bulls. And if you can believe it or not, I don't know if you've ever seen me, but I actually have a... My dad's grandmother was 100% Cherokee Native American. And so if you look at me, I look like the whitest guy on the planet. But technically speaking, I'm like 10% to 15% Cherokee.

Oh, no way. Yeah, but I don't look like it at all. I think the I look much like an Irish English guy. That's cool, man. I love that. I always love I don't know why I'm always fascinated with with that type of stuff like where, you know, like heritage and things like that. I'm I'm 50 percent. I'm 50 percent. Well, we're all kind of a mix of things, but I only claim to. And so, yeah, I'm Polish and I'm Romanian and I'm

on my this this past year I took a trip and I did a little mini DJ tour through Europe but while I was doing that I also got a chance to do I went to meet some family in Poland for the first time in Warsaw Poland met some cousins and got to meet them for the first time in person and then I went to

Romania and I went to the little villages the two little villages in Transylvania Which I guess I didn't even realize that was a real place. I kind of thought it was just made up but so I went to Transylvania where my great-grandparents were born and raised before they moved to the US and Man, it was just cool. Like I you know, I had one of those moments where you know, I was getting all emotional, you know Just cuz I had been there, you know, I had been on the road for like, you know, three weeks four weeks and

And I'm on the road that connected the two little villages, you know, and I'm like, oh, my goodness, like I can, you know, for the first time in my life, like my great grandparents no longer seemed like these old dead people, but they were these like, oh, man, I can picture the like the 19 year old version of my or the 19 year old great grandpa grandfather walking this road to go see this woman he just met. And like, I don't know, it gave me such a like I love that history. And it's just really it's.

I don't know. I guess I'm getting...

I'm getting more emotional in my as I'm getting older. I don't know. But it was really cool. I love I love that idea of like understanding where where we come from and in the history of our families and whatnot. We've totally gotten off the topic of production. But, you know, that's what happens with me sometimes. No, no, it's all good. I have a tendency to do that to people. People come on this podcast all the time, Philip. And they're just like, Dave, I just have a tendency to ramble when I'm talking to you. I don't know what it is. I go, that's a good sign. I take that as a compliment, a very high compliment.

Totally. Yeah.

and Black Books was kind of like a, it wasn't really a hit, but it was a fantastic show, and this one character named Fran wants to get in touch with all her relatives, right? She's like, I've never seen these people before, I just want to connect with my family, and

all they did was they basically used her as like some kind of like pack mule. And they were like, Oh wow. They were like, Oh, you have a car. We need to ride somewhere. Oh, you have money. We need some money. Oh, you have a house. We need to move in. It's like, and she goes, I'm so sorry I ever did this. And I just kind of thought to myself, what if I reached out to some relatives and it's all they did was basically try to like use me for anything they could.

I think it's worth risking. You never know. But yeah, that's crazy. That would be... Man, what's the one show? The Sneaky Pete?

That's on, what is that, on Netflix or on, I don't know what channel it's on, but it's that idea of Ribisi is the lead. And it's, yeah, that idea that he, you know, came in and he convinces this family that he's someone else. And that was scripted, but that was actually, there was a show, I don't know if you ever saw it, my buddy Phil Lott, it's funny we bring him up. He actually did a, he did a documentary a few years ago called Impostor.

And if you guys haven't seen it, it is fascinating. And it's about this guy who convinces this family that he is this missing child from years and years and years ago. And he gets into this family...

And it's the whole story of him infiltrating their lives and why they think that they want it. Oh, man. It's just – it's really – like you're watching it. I love documentaries that I watch and I go this is – there's no way this is real.

You know, like how did this happen? Like I think, you know, the two strongest – I'm sure there's many more. I'm oversimplifying, but like when I watch documentaries, the two amazing things that I always notice is like A, if I'm sitting there and I'm going, whoa, there's no way this is real. I'm waiting for them to say this is bullshit. How is this even possible? We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. That always catches my attention.

And then I think it's so amazing in documentaries when it's totally just right time, right, you know, right time, right place. You know, those documentaries that start out about one thing and then something crazy happens in just by chance in the time that they were filming. And then it's, and then all of a sudden you're, you're capturing all these other things. Like, um, have you, have you seen, have you been watching, uh, Flint town on Netflix at all? Uh, no, I haven't.

So Flinttown, it's all about Flint and obviously the Flint water crisis and all of those things. But the fascinating thing was just they were there when – they went there to kind of do the Flint water crisis and what was happening in Flint with the water. And then – but they were embedded with like the police force, the Flint police force.

And then while they're there was when we started having all of these cases coming up about police brutality and some of the deaths and things like that. And so it was so – to be able to be there documenting police officers as they are experiencing and as they're learning about these things and seeing their reactions…

And then being able to compare that to how we were reacting as, you know, as people in society, it was just, it really was fascinating because it's one of those things where you're like, they weren't late to the story. You know, like they weren't trying to catch up. Like they were catching it as it was happening. And I think that's what makes, I don't know, for me, that's what makes a lot of that stuff really, really exciting.

Yeah. And it's, um, I love movies and TV shows where, you know, characters are like a pathological liar, um, like, like American psycho that that's an example. Um,

Even stuff like some of the other stuff that's come out where you just find the character is just a complete pathological or compulsive liar. And there was a TV show. What was it called? I keep wanting to say Firefly, but that wasn't right. But there was a TV show where the...

the character basically took the role of a, of a, uh, of a sheriff. He took over his identity. It's, um, Oh Christ, what the hell is it? I forget it. But, uh, basically he, and the Banshee, that's what it's called. Banshee. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So, so he took over the, his whole life, uh, and basically said, I'm the new sheriff and this and that. So that, that, that, uh, that was actually pretty cool. Uh, uh, you know, pretty good as well. But, um,

A lot of these shows now, there's so many different channels and stuff like that. There's YouTube, there's Netflix, there's Hulu, there's all these channels. This is the golden age of TV, but it's also incredibly segregated on all these different channels. Yeah, it's crazy. There's so much going on, and I think it's, you know, we joke, we've been joking for the last couple years, like anybody that tells you they know what's going on is full of shit. William Goldman said, right?

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's tough, man. I mean, it's, you know, I will say like, I've, I've been lucky to work on, on some, you know, some Netflix shows and some YouTube red shows. Um, we're actually, I'm really excited. I'm going to humble brag here for a second. One of the shows that I, that I helped produce, uh,

is up for a daytime Emmy right now. So we find out at the end of the month if we won this daytime Emmy, which would be just really cool to be, you know, and it's for outstanding educational programming. So it's like to be able to, we did a show called Mind Field, which was all about science and psychology with a great guy named Michael Stevens who runs a YouTube channel called Vsauce.

And it was like to be able to create a show that is educational and entertaining to where you know that you're reaching kids and people in general. But he has a younger audience. To know you're being able to reach and educate kids that are hungry to learn. I think there's this stereotype that kids these days don't want to learn and all they want to do is play on their social media. I mean our channel shows and there's a lot of – there's a lot of –

of educational programming out there on YouTube that kids can't get enough of. And I think it's really encouraging to see so many kids that are interested in science and interested in math and they want to learn and they want to figure things out in psychology. And I think it's really special. So I digress. But yeah, with all of the networks, it's hard, man. It's really hard to know...

What's going to survive? Because the internet has created a nice, beautiful, new place where it doesn't need to be 22 minutes exactly. It doesn't need to be 44. You don't have to have the act break down at the exact –

Yeah.

It's gonna take a little bit more time for us to figure out how everything is gonna shake out But I think there's it's like anything right like you can either look at the problem of it or you get out in front of it and see the possibilities and the opportunities and know that we're at a space now where You want if you want to create something if you really want to create something? There's no excuse

There's really no excuse for not creating in this day and age with the accessibility to cameras, the accessibility to editing, to music. If you want to be, there is no, now it's difficult to be seen. That's true. There's a lot of clutter. There's a lot of noise. It is not the easiest thing in the world to get attention. But if you have creativity inside of you that you want to get out, that you don't,

And you feel like you don't have the resources, you are not utilizing your resources because there is so much to get out there. And if you want to be creative, there's no excuse for not being creative in this day and age.

Yeah. It's like, hey, man, this podcast is something I started to just to be creative. You know, I started this a few years ago just to be creative. And the barrier to entry to starting a podcast is literally so low now. So low. You could start one on your phone with the Podbean app, which is my host. They actually, if you launch the app, you can start recording a podcast even through the app. So you don't even need another app for that. And you edit it right there and then upload it. And there you go.

And I think that's why, as we start to wrap up here and we bring it back home, I think that's why the power of the story is so important. Because now, where you do have a lot of competition, because the barriers of entry into a YouTube channel, into a podcast, into a short film, the barriers of entry are so low that

But people still have a high expectation of content. So if you are making, you know, you can buy a $200 gimbal for your iPhone that you already have in your pocket and you can buy a little recording device for the audio and you can make a pretty damn good video for 300 bucks if you've got the right people that are willing to help and work on it and then you edit. You can do some really great stuff, but...

If you do not have a story, if you don't have a compelling reason why anyone should even listen or watch or care about your project, it's going to be very difficult to get any type of visibility with it. So I think that's why a lot of the kids – and I see that now –

A lot of kids coming out of school or certain schools or whatever, they'll send me their stuff. And I'm like, cool. It looks great. You understand that if you shoot it in high speed and you're shooting 60, 120 frames per second and you slow it down behind some very epic feeling motivational music that it's going to look cool and look cinematic. Yes, you nailed that.

But what do you want me to do now? You know, what is your call to action? Do you want me to open my wallet and pay you money? Do you want me to call my mother and tell her I love her because I haven't talked to her? Do you want me to cry and miss an ex? What in the hell do you want me to feel now?

And I think that that is something that we as storytellers, as filmmakers, as television show creators, podcasters, we have to understand like what is it that we want to – how are we serving? That's what I'll say. How are we serving our viewer? And if we don't have an answer for that, if we don't know what our viewer is going to get out of what we're giving them, then we probably don't have strong product.

And then we've created content that's never going to really resonate with anybody because we didn't think about who was going to consume it. We didn't even care. So I think nowadays we have to be that much more –

disciplined and intentional about understanding what we want to create and who we want to create it for. And then how are we going to do it with a great, powerful story and then executing that? Um, cause it's not, it's just not enough anymore to just throw it up online and hope it gets found. You know, we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. You

Yeah, that's very true. I think those days of kind of like throwing that Hail Mary pass are pretty much, I don't want to say they're over. I don't want to be definitive, but it's a lot harder now because there's just so much content being made, you know, and there's just so much stuff being on there that the probability of anything like that happening is just so low now. Yeah.

probably less than 1%. But, you know, I know we're winding down, Phil. So just in closing, is there anything that you wanted to say to sort of put a period at the end of this whole conversation? You know, I guess the first thing, you know, the annoying social media plug, I'll say, you know, you guys can find me on Facebook, Instagram, all that stuff.

at Philip Andrew LA. I have an email account. I'd love for you guys to email me if you have any specific questions, whether that's wanting to work together on a project or if you're listening to this and you're young and you're still in school and you just want some advice, I'm always willing to help as much as possible. So reach out. It's philipandrewla at gmail.com. So please connect with me. I would love to talk with you guys any way that I can and help out anyway. I

I think my last, you know, what would be my, what would be my, my takeaway from all of this is, um, you know, it's, if you're listening to this in your, you know, I think we already talked about some stuff for, for people that are younger in their careers about getting started and how to do that. And we talked a lot about that. If you're listening to this and you're interested in production or TV or film or podcasting or any, any type of that creative stuff and you're,

You are struggling to either get things going or maybe your career isn't exactly where you want it to be Or you want to be doing more, you know, I always love this phrase, you know it's like it's never too late to be what you might have been and we get caught up in our heads about where we're supposed to be in life and What success we should have had at this point how much money we should be we have these expectations and

And the truth is, you know, we're just, all we have is today. And that's all that we have. And we don't know what's coming tomorrow. We don't know what's going to go, you know, what's going to happen, how life is going to shake out. So go for it. Just make a decision.

Make a decision of what you really want. You know, if you want to, if you haven't written that script, if you haven't worked on any film set, if you haven't worked on one in three years, if you know what, no matter how big or small your, your situation is, all I'll say is just get moving on it. It's, it's all a big thing is just making the decision of what you want to do.

And then also one thing I love to say is write it down and write it down. Write down that goal. If it's to make X amount more money next year, if it's to have X amount of episodes of your podcast done, if it's to create whatever your goal is –

Be definitive. You've got to have some clarity for the purpose, and then what's the action involved? And so I think that's really important is figure out what you want and write it down and then start taking the steps towards it so that you're able to achieve that thing. And it's never too late. It's never too late to be what you might have been.

And you're never too young for something. You're never too old for something. Those are just lies that you're allowing that are preventing you from really getting into stuff. So go after it. If you guys are creative – and number one, I appreciate you guys. If you're still listening this long to me go on and on, I greatly appreciate it, and I really hope that you'll send me an email and let me know. But yeah, just –

Keep going. Figure it out. Be very intentional about what you want. Write it down and then get out there and start making it happen.

And that is an excellent way, Phil, to end the interview on that note. Everybody, I will link to everything that Phil and I talked about in the show notes at DaveBullis.com. Twitter, it's at DB Podcast. And my personal Twitter is at Dave underscore Bullis. And Phil, I want to say thank you so much for coming on, man. Again, we were two strangers who met on the Internet. And to bring it all back, right?

I love it. No, I greatly appreciate it. I'm only going to call you Bullis from here on out. I love it. It's a great last name. I'm a big fan now, man. So you let me know any way that I can ever help out, any way I ever can be of service to you, my friend. Feel free. Always reach out. We are now friends bonded through the interwebs. And I greatly appreciate you letting me come on and hear my voice. So...

I want to thank Dave so much for doing such a great job on this episode. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at indiefilmhustle.com forward slash 780. And if you haven't already, please head over to filmmakingpodcast.com, subscribe and leave a good review for the show. It really helps us out a lot, guys. Thank you again so much for listening, guys. As always, keep that hustle going, keep that dream alive. Stay safe out there, and I'll talk to you soon.

Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle podcast at IndieFilmHustle.com. That's I-N-D-I-E-F-I-L-M-H-U-S-T-L-E.com.