Benji and Joel Madden (of Good Charlotte): Gentleman at All Costs
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Hey, everybody. Welcome to literally, it's always fun when we have people in the bunker. In the bunker. And two of my favorite people, Joel and Benji Madden, the doppelgangers, two for the price of one. I've gotten to know these two amazing dudes, and they're like real gifts in my life.

And, um, we're just going to have a, we're going to, we're bro-ing out. I'm just saying this literally today. It's a, it's a bro-fest. Um, and, uh, we're going to talk about our wives. We've got great wives. We're going to talk about them, try to get in the good graces of our great wives. So, uh, stay tuned. Here we go. We're rolling, right? Yeah. Okay. Um, we're a great start to a podcast. All right. Good. Um, because we are very close.

Right? Well, dude. I mean, would you say we're best friends? We're in best friends category. Yeah, but we sort of operate differently, though. Because we don't have to...

Like, text all day or... Even if you don't see me for six months. Dude, I'm like Pawtuxie Phil. Like, the fucking... Like, you reach in and you pull me out of my lair. If you see your shadow... Then we're friends. Yeah. And we see the shadows. And if you don't, you go back in. And you go back in. Because... And Joel doesn't get to hang with us as much. Yeah, but I'm your other half. So, if you...

We try to explain this and very few people get it. Venge is somewhere, I'm there. Yeah, if you're close to me, you're close to Joel. I love that. And if I'm somewhere, he's there. We are each other's proxy. I love that. Yeah. And avatars and... Yeah. Do you guys are the Matrix? Sort of. We do live in our own sort of little, sort of outside the Matrix. Yeah, we live in our own bubble. But I feel really close to you. I always, like, we have...

I do. I feel really close to you. I'm getting all warm and fuzzy. I do. But I really love you. But I love you because I don't have to be any different. Like, I can go...

I'm going to say go dark. I don't go dark. But like, you know, I retreat. Sometimes I retreat back to my little, you know, world. And, you know, you don't hear from me. I don't come out. You know, you don't hear. And I think that's me. I'm the one I feel like, oh, Jesus, I haven't reached out to anybody. I'm like, because I just like hermit out. Because you're a fake hermit.

Um, extrovert. That's right. You're an introvert that has, you know, your job, right? And you're whatever you're doing, you have to be an extrovert. That's right. And you're a gentleman at all costs. It's one thing I love about you at all costs. Gentlemen, that's a good title. Yeah. Gentlemen at all costs for sure. Gentlemen at all costs, despite.

Ooh, I'm going to use that. Despite the world, I am a gentleman. That's the title for this episode anyway. Yeah, Gentleman on All Costs. Absolutely. And I was telling Joel, Rob has taught me all about gentleman stuff.

About gentlemanly things. Tell me, like, okay. Give us the list. Give us the short list. So this is stuff that you feel I've taught you about gentleman stuff. Gentlemanly things. The ways of a gentleman? The ways of a gentleman. Okay. Yeah, because you're sort of a statesman.

Yeah. You're classy, but you're not, um, my time with you that I get to spend with you. And, and we'd spend, I think, um, we get a lot of very, um, we really connect. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So, um, one wasn't, I, I, all the dream, I had dreams of, of sort of these, um, aspects of life, but I didn't have sort of like a, a model, a Sherpa because it's intimidating. You

You can't just start playing. You can start playing golf for everyone out there. You can start playing golf, but it's intimidating if you don't know your way around golf.

Yeah, it is. It actually is. You go to a country club and you're like, God, I do not belong here. Yeah. And if someone tells me, if someone rubs me the wrong way, I'm out. I'm just going to be like, Oh, yeah. So yeah. Like I will tuck my shirt in, but don't say like, you know, it's kind of like, Oh, Hey man, just, just to let you know, it's kind of a thing. Like, you know, and I'll, Oh dude,

Of course. Yeah. You know, but I need to be kind of like, I also have a little bit, I think, um, chip on your shoulder. Yeah. Chip on my shoulder where, you know, I think music kids are like low self-esteem kids. So same with actors. Yeah. So you, you kind of need to be, we get, we get really quickly like, well, well, whatever. Fuck you. I'm out. I don't need to be here. I'm, you know, so, um, so when you have like a great, you know, like guide to be like, let me show you about cigars.

And you're kind of like, well, I've always loved the smell cigars. I love, yeah, I've had a few cigars, but they were probably not great. You know, they're good now though. When you learn fantastic, you are a quick learner. I mean, we get out, we go, we get out on the golf course. My, and my man, a, his golf game is bananas for as, as new as he is. It's crazy. Yeah. And I'm passionate. And the cigar game, you know, I'm a great one, right? Yeah. Top level, top level.

Yeah. I'm a, I definitely try hard like in life. Like if I get into something, I really go down the rabbit hole. You're a fast learner for things you, you, you're interested in. Yeah, definitely. The things I'm interested in and the other things I'm not interested in, I couldn't learn to save my life. Um, but, um, the things I'm interested in, I want to be, I like, I like to be a student. Right. Yeah. You've, you've sort of, I could go in on a whole list. I mean,

How do you pick your students? My students? Yeah. Well, Mr. Skywalker, my students. How do you pick your younger gentlemen? My younger gentlemen? Well, listen, you... How do you pick your younger gentlemen? Well, first of all, but I learned from you guys. Destiny? Dude, I've learned from you guys. And what do you think this is? Oh, yeah. That's a sick tattoo, dude.

That's a great tattoo. This is my 60th birthday. Birthday gift. Birthday gift. Yeah, it's great. I mean, and, and, and right. Like classy, like a little peaky peaky. Yeah. A little peak, a little peaky peaky out. And then, then womp. And then, but, but here's the other part is it's up high enough that on a golf shirt, you could cover it. Right. It's smart. Right. So, but that's, I've, I'm learning from me and, and I'm learning the watch game.

The bling game. You guys been game though. I was, I definitely been in the game, bro. I've been in the bling game. I've been in it, but, but I had to up my, I'd up it. Just a little update operating system. Yeah. I had to up it with, with some of the stuff that you guys got going on for sure. Yeah. He's the watch guy. I mean, I have great watches, but he helped me get all of them.

How did you get into watches? I bought my very first... So I didn't know anything about watches. But I always... I had things in my head as a kid that seemed out of reach at the time. So nice car or car collection. Things you dream about. Aspirational. Aspirational things. And I always felt from a young age, it's really important for...

as men to be aspirational and not really in a way that's not... Too flashy. And also too...

Yeah, not too braggadocious.

And a guy would come in wearing a really nice watch or, or in a beautiful car or something, you would look at it and you'd be like, wow, that's awesome. I, I, one day, you know, I'm going to keep working. I'm going to work hard. And, um, and it was like, and that's obviously not what life's all about, but like it's aspirational. So here's what's interesting. What you just said, cause I totally relate, which goes back to why we're friends is, um,

You look at that. You come from, you guys are from Maryland. Yeah. You guys grew up completely working class. Yep. And no connections to fucking fuck all. Anywhere. Anywhere. Yeah. But even then, when a dude rolled up with a great watch, you're like, yeah. Wow. Yeah. I'm going to bust my ass. As opposed to,

Oh, that rich... Whatever the... It is. We heard that. We heard that around us. Were you hearing that around you? You know, that's the thing. There's a... I think there's two...

Frame of mind. Two frame of minds. There's hopeful and hopeless. So in my opinion, it's just I either see something and if I'm coming from a place of hopelessness, I could never have it. If I'm coming from a place of optimism and hope, I go, wow, that's cool. How do I get that? Right. That's always how we've felt. But there were two things I would always recognize too. Yeah.

How did the person that I saw carry themselves? Yeah. Because you don't respect, you don't look up, I think as young men, you look for other men that you can aspire to, that you can respect. Right. So when you see someone that,

has, you know, beautiful things, but they treat their family like shit. Or they're an asshole to the waiter or something. You don't. Yeah. Then you go like, oh, like, no, that ain't going to be me. It's embarrassing. Then when you see a guy, when you see like a, when you see a guy that's a, that's a gentleman that's treating people well and they're, they're close to their family, you go, that's what I want to be like. I think when we were kids, right? So you find, you find your models. And so I think that it wasn't just about the stuff.

For me, it's not the watch or the car. It's how the guy acted when he got out of it. It's just cool. Yeah. No, for sure. Attitude is everything. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that like I, from early age, I was just like, okay, I watched my parents like

kill themselves and they, I watched them work really, really hard. And I really admired, um, I really admire a lot of things about them. Um, but I think we were always just like, we gotta be, we have to be, we gotta think bigger. Yeah. Did you guys ever feel like aliens? Like, like, like you were dropped into this world that you didn't really belong in and that you were destined for some other thing.

I always felt like I didn't belong where I was at, but I've always felt that way anywhere I'm at. Still? Still. Still. So, and that the same token, when I go home to Maryland, I feel very akin to the people there. So I have a really nice time when I go back home because-

I, it's very familial to me. It's in you. It's your DNA. Yeah. And everyone, when I go back to Ohio, I'm like, these are my people. Yeah. I can feel it. Like I have, like, I enjoy the small conversations and interactions with everyone there. Uh, because it reminds me of, of, like of happy times, you know, in a place that I love, but I didn't ever feel like I was going to stay there. Yes. I always feel like I'm going to, you know, and I never feel like I'm going to stay anywhere.

That's interesting. So you don't like if, and I know you're in the process of moving and doing stuff. So have you ever felt like, oh, this is my home? Your landing spot? Yeah. Only with my wife and kids. Wherever they want to be, I'm happy to be. That's great. That's the way to do it. Everybody knows that dad has like his room and there's like always a suitcase open with clothes in it. That's amazing. And there's like bags, like half-packed.

And so I'm always, I've always been in a little in transit. I've contained it in my life so that it is in one room. It's in one room and it's not getting all over my family. So they're not like afraid I'm going to leave. But I think moving a lot when we were young, I think it was like. We stayed on the move. We had to move a lot. We were always getting like evicted or we had to move or we had to like whatever. And I think it like maybe traumatized me. And I have like a thing with.

staying in one place, even though I can live in a house. Well, we're moving, but we've lived in only a few houses with our kids. So is it a thing where you feel like

the day is going to come where you're going to have to move somewhere else or that you eventually feel restless and want to move? I actually think I'm pretty settled. Yeah. Like it used to kind of be that, I think. Yeah. It was a little bit trauma stuff. Yeah. But actually now I feel settled, but it's still have some like

tendencies to to keep my space a little bit it's a bit chaotic if you go in my but i've we've contained it to like my little like office man cave and it's like it's it's i'm more organized than you are yeah you are you're super i'm neater than him he's very very ocd he always laughs at me because if you go into like one of my like my library or something yeah and you

you know, pick something up and look at it. Oh, this is cool. And put it back. I'll move it right back. I'll move it right back. Two inches. Two inches to where it was. You know, my wife is like that, you know, Cheryl's like that. It's like, she likes to stage things, stage things, but like, okay. Like, like I'm looking at this bottle of water sitting here right now. Like, because it's just not perfectly on the centered, the center would drive. She'd fix it. Berserk. Berserk.

I mean, we're, you know, the other thing is we're all three married to strong women. Very. I mean, that's the, I mean, when you think about the sum, there are a lot of similarities and all of our similarities are like core, core stuff about how we view life, how we view success, what we want to do with our time, how we want to invest in others and what's important to us. And like,

A lot of people have different values. They all align. Yeah, right? I think also, too, when you think about the powerful women that are just these forces of nature. Dude. Like, you're not... And they are... I think all of our wives are interesting in the fact that, too, I think they don't want to be with the pushover guy. Right? So they still need a strong counterpart. But you have to also not have the ego to...

Oh, we all respect our wives. We, they are absolutely our counterpart and we all have a healthy fear. Yeah. Of our wives. I think, I think like I was, I was sick. I, I never, I don't know if I ever thought, I don't know if I ever thought someone could like keep me. Right. Oh, honestly, you know, like I thought, I don't know how I felt about it. Uh, it's not that I was, I was a relationship guy, but then I met Nicole and, and,

She absolutely runs the show. Right. But we are partners. So there's things, there's aspects that I run, but there's a whole part of my life that would not work if she wasn't there running it. And she gave me a way deeper, more richer life because of the aspects of my, of my life that she is like,

She oversees. She runs. And vice versa, I think. We work together. But she's strong. She's got... Yeah. I respect her and fear her a little bit. Yeah, I think it's even... It's more than just a part of your life. Yeah. It's a whole foundation. And I feel the same way. Cameron, we just... When we met, it was like the world just went like this. Yeah. And it was like...

Over. Yeah, fear is strong because it sounds almost like abusive. No, no. She's just sharp. Yeah. Respect. No, they're formidable. Yes. They're like, you don't want to fuck with them. No, you do not fuck with her. Did I want no part of running afoul of either of our three wives? That's the queen.

Yeah. No. Yeah. They're queens. Like they are. They're they're very. Yeah. For you know what else? Go against my wife. Good luck. San Diego is a place that inspires positivity like no other place. So this is an ad for San Diego. I'm reading it. I just need to take a break from this and say San Diego is so cool. It is literally amazing.

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from Wells Fargo. Learn more at wellsfargo.com forward slash active cash. Terms apply. I don't, yeah, I don't want to tangle with Cameron. Do you remember, have you ever heard the story about when Cameron kind of rolled Benji out publicly? Do you remember that dinner we were at where we got introduced to you at

Remember it was somebody's birthday party, wasn't it? Yes. Hold on. It was. Was it Drew Barrymore's or something? It might have been Drew's birthday. I'm trying to think. It was Drew Barrymore's birthday party. And we were all hiding in a shower together. Do you remember this? Oh, yeah. No, it was. It seems like a dream. Like I've had a fever dream. I was hiding in a shower with Benji and Drew Barrymore. No, I totally remember. Was it a surprise party? It was a surprise for Cameron.

It was a surprise for Cameron. Yeah, it was a surprise party for Cameron. So Drew introduced you to everyone. That's right. So Drew introduced you. It was a surprise for Cameron, but it was also, the whole thing was sort of a ruse. With the friends. To like...

Like, have you meet the friends? All the friends. Right? All the friends, yeah. That's a fair assessment. Yeah. Right? That was our first time meeting. Yeah, it was our first time meeting. You and I were huddled in a shower. Yeah, we hit it right off. I mean, when you're in a shower with another dude. Yeah. We hit it right off. We hit it right off. And ever since then, have we, you know, it's been exactly the same. Yeah. First conversation to now.

That's true. Obviously, we've gone deeper, but... Yeah. No, and like, we've traveled together. Oh, we've... You know, we've had a good... A lot of great conversations. You know, with no one else. Just long... Yeah. Two hours. And that's the thing. I don't like... That's when guys get that, it's super good. Because I'm super down with...

surface guy talk, golf talk. I love it. I love it. But I bet I really love it when, you know, guys can kind of get, get, get real. And we do both. We do both because that one's some days it's just like, that's actually what we need. Yes. We don't need to go too deep. No, you know? No, for sure. Sometimes you just need to watch a game most of the time. You know what I mean? That's the other thing. We, we love our,

We love our, so you know, I went to the Super Bowl. Did you go to the Super Bowl? Were you guys there? I didn't go to the Super Bowl. No, almost, but decided not to. It was. I thought the commanders might have had a shot. I was going to go if the commanders had made it. I was thinking Ravens commander Super Bowl would have been my ultimate. That's my ultimate dream. I know. That's the other thing. We bond on baseball and football and all that. The game we went to last year with those seats that you have. Wasn't that sick?

Best baseball watching experience. It's like floor seats at the Lakers. The Rob Lowe seats? Yeah, and Mookie comes up and says, The Rob Lowe Dodger seats? How about when Mookie comes up and says, What's up? And remember when he hit the second home run? And he came and looked at us? And he came and he was like, I love Mookie. He's the best. We have a sick Mookie Betts rookie card collection. No way. Me and Sparrow, yeah. And Rob is texting Dave Roberts. Yeah.

Yeah. During the game. Only Rob, only Rob. See, gentlemen. I love my Dodgers. Wait, and Sparrow, your son is, I got to hear, because I've been hearing it secondhand. Tell me like what kind of prospect he is. He's got good natural talent. What's his position? Right now he's an infielder, but I think he's a pitcher. Wow. Really? He's a good pitcher, but he's,

He's got, he's just got to grow. He's just, he's, he's 15, but he's just got to put size on. He's, you know how it is. Like some kids grow faster than others, but he's, he's great. Uh, and good kid.

Amazing. He's got character. Yeah, he's a cool dude. I try to be careful talking about him because you know how your kids feel about you out there talking about him. They hate it. It's embarrassing. It's embarrassing. And he says I'm way over the top. Like, I make everything sound great. He's like, you glaze everything. You know what I mean? Yeah, amazing. Hopeful guy. Hopeful. Hopeful, not hopeless. I believe in mine. You know, I believe in mine. My people, you know.

We work our asses off and we go get what we want. So I'm always going to bet on my guys. Yeah, 100%. Well, as his uncle, I can say. But he's good. He's good. He's a good dude. I'm super proud of him. I had an experience one time where I was picking him up from something. And a lady came over and thought that I was— They always think you're his dad. Thought to everyone, if I do anything around the kids, people always think I'm Joel. Yeah.

Um, for sure. And said, Hey, I just want to real quick. I just want to let you know, um, my, um, my kid was getting picked on and, um, Sparrow, uh, stuck up for him and, and he it's gotten a way better for him and, and he really made a difference. And I was like, that's, I mean, for an uncle, that's like, he's a cool ass dude, but he doesn't like anyone talking about him or giving him props. So, uh, but, but you know, sick music producer. Really?

Very good music producer. Natural. You should see him hit pads too. Yeah, well, he'd hate to hear that. Because I tried to tell someone he boxed. He definitely has hands. But, you know, good baseball player and good music producer and all around good guy. Good dude. Love hanging out with him a lot. I feel like you hang with your sons a lot. A lot. The same way I hang with mine. And that's the other thing we all...

share in common. We like love hanging with our family, our kids. So fun. And you can best. I mean, we're a little farther on down than you're in such a good age. You're in the, I'm in the, he's in the thick of it, man. You're in the trenches trenches, five-year-old one-year-old dude. It's well, who does my son share a birthday with that guy? Which made me so happy. Uncle Rob lucky, lucky St. Patty's day. Lucky St. Patty's day. I feel like he made me so happy.

I love that we share that birthday. Your kids are cool. They're good, right? They're good boys. They're great guys. They're so fun. Super cool. Matthew likes to stay more in the cut, though. He is. Matthew is, you know, he's a lawyer in finance. He knows how to handle himself on camera, but that's not his jam. He likes to fish. Sparrow, he likes to stay in the cut. He's not big on getting out in front. He doesn't love, like,

Like his parents are in entertainment. His granddad is in entertainment. His aunt and uncle are in entertainment. He's around all these entertainers. And it feels like so far he's not into the front being out front. My daughter, on the other hand, I think she's naturally inclined. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, you can, you know what it is, is you can just feel the energy. Cause I always knew Johnny, my youngest. They're like drawn. There's just that they have, it's a Chris, it's a certain type of, it is not to say that our other kids don't have, they have a different type of energy. Right. But there's that, that room charisma thing. Yeah. And some people have that. Got it. She does. Raddy's for sure. Got it. She does. Um, and yeah,

It's like, it just like, you feel like, oh yeah, well there's, that's destiny. If, if they, if it's, if it's there for them. Yeah. It's like, they're naturally drawn to interact with people and entertain people in like their own ways. Like I think. Yes. Or engage with the world in a way that's like, look at me a little bit. And people want to look at them. Yeah. Like if they're in a lineup. They're intriguing. Yeah. There's something, there's something intriguing. Yeah. They're just compelling. Yeah. Compelling people. I want to,

actually touch on that too, because going back to like how we, you know, met and how we got, you know, uh, really close and became, you know, such great friends. Um, one of the things, again, when you think back to being a kid and you think about the guy that pulls up in the nice car and then he's not an asshole and he treats everyone well, right. You find people to aspire to. Um,

how close you are and the way your sons talk about you when you're not there. And then when you getting to be in the room with you guys and getting to see how you, you respect your sons. Like you, you, you guys have one of the most, like for me, when I think about what kind of relationship I want to have with my kids when they're, when they grow up, you guys are not sitting around shaming each other, judging each other, getting after each other. Like you guys talk like

Almost like peers, but they also respect and look up to you at the same time. It's cool as shit. It's really unique. It's really unique. And I think it's really evolved. I think it has to come from a place where you actually have respected your kids from the day they were born. You can tell they're both so confident in individuals. What do you think that is? Yeah, first of all, you guys are making my day to hear that. You know, I do think...

It's funny. I remember and it probably wasn't as profound and isn't as profound as I have made it. But I remember back in the day, in the 80s, in the height of all like teen idol fucking it boy shit.

I had a lawyer. And so he's a lawyer. My dad's a lawyer. So he's in show business because he's representing me, but he's also not. He's not an agent, not a producer, but he's a lawyer. Which in my mind means a serious person. Serious guy. Right? Yeah. And...

He was always with his kids, always going to games, always, always, always about his kids. You go into his office, there'd be things about his kids. He would talk about his kids. It was just so a part of his life. And I'll never forget. And I wasn't married. I wasn't anywhere near getting married. I wasn't thinking about kids, none of it. But I remember him saying, you know, when I invest like that in my kids and then they're always...

then you that investment pays off, but you've got to make the investment. And I just remember going, oh, I'm going to remember that. And it just made sense to me. So, you know, I always felt great about, you know, serving hot lunch.

you know, at the school and, and being raising my hand to be the, the driver. Me too. To the field trips. Me too. Do you know what I mean? Or dream about it. Going on the camping. Like I was, I was the dad that did all that stuff. But you dreamed about it. Yeah. Yeah. And, and listen, we're, I was lucky that I was able to have, uh,

I had, I have such empathy for parents who are working so hard that they can't do it. Yeah. So I, I, I so get that it was a luxury, but also I made a lot of it happen. Yeah. You make it happen. I mean, I, there, there are movies I didn't do TV shows I didn't do because, and I'm still going through it. Like I'm sorry, I'm not moving to Australia to do that. Sorry. Not doing it. Yeah. So you make those things and then, and then what you get,

is what you're talking about is you have that relationship with your kids and your adult kids. That investment pays you back just in ways you can't even qualify. Because think of it, if you're not there, they're building their own lives every minute of every day. And so they're either building it with you or without you. Yeah, so essentially you saw in your landscape

you saw a guy that was a model for you that you said, okay, one of my models, we pick a few different models for different things, right? Marriage, this, right? And you said, okay, that's one of my models for fatherhood. Okay, cool. Larry Stein, give him a little shout out. My longtime litigator. Good man. And I think as young men, I think we have to choose models. And I think that we've always chosen, I think we've always looked, because my dream, biggest dreams,

It didn't really have so much to do with what we would do as artists or what we would do. All that stuff was just kind of like... It's weird. I think just like... Not Chance. We worked super hard at it, but I don't think it was... We had this... Our biggest goal was to be Hall of Famers. I think definitely the dreams we always talked about was having families and having...

peaceful homes that are just you go home and you're with the same- They're happy. Yeah. When you're old and sitting on the porch, you're still with your wife and you have that thing that just- This is cool. I just love stability. Yeah. Then you find your partner, for me, I've met Cameron and I was like, "Wow, I've never met anyone like her. I can count on her. She's a ride or die." When you say ride or die,

that's it. Nicole's the same way. You just go, Oh, you just kind of know something clicks inside of you. You say you would go to hell and back with me. You you're a ride or die. Like, and I think like, that's the only kind of person you can build a lifetime with, by the way, cause it's going to, you know, and, and when you have something that, that is so true like that, you kind of feel like, like, like,

it you got to remind yourself i talk for myself i need to remind myself how special that is i have a friend who was in this is the opposite of ride or die so this is my favorite story ever of like

when you realize maybe your mate isn't ride or die, they're scuba diving, right? This is the best story. It's an absolutely true story. By the way, this is my buddy who, he and I would scuba dive all the time together. And so he goes down with his then fiance and he runs out of oxygen. I mean, he looks like, he looks at his gauge and he's like, I'm out. And he pulls her fin out

and goes, and she looks at him and swims off. And now that to me, I mean, you talk to him.

He finally had to, and she was like, and then, but the first reaction. It wasn't to help him. No. But like, you got to make sure that you have the real, the real deal. And no doubt. No doubt. Oh, yeah. Well, when I think about if I want to get, if I'm in a situation in life where I'm stuck, you know, in some bad situation. First call. First, the one person I want to be with, sir. No doubt. Actually, she's my first call too. Same with.

Same with when I, when I was still single and sit like fucking juggling like no other. Yeah. And Cheryl was kind of in the starting lineup, but like, you know, we were still trying to figure it out. Yeah. Somebody said to me, he said, do you realize she would literally stand in front of a train for you? And I went, yeah, fuck. Yeah. Yes, she would. And that was, and she's the boss and she's the boss. And I was like, oh yeah.

Because not everybody's standing in front of a train for everybody else. Oh, man, come on. I think it's a lot for all three of our wives to actually see us. They can see anyone they want, right? But they actually see us. They see through whatever anyone else thinks of us or whatever anyone else, the real us, you know, when, you know, the world ain't watching, they see us. That's so funny you say that. And they'll appreciate it. Again, this is why we're simpatico, because, like, I feel like you're telling my story.

Like Cheryl was a makeup artist. That's how we met. And I've been sitting in makeup artist chairs since I was 15 years old. I've sent hundreds of makeup artists, old ones, young ones, male, female, gay, straight, good looking or whatever. And she's beautiful, was beautiful, is beautiful. I sit in her chair and the way she saw me

Like she saw, and I always was able to articulate, she saw me in a way that nobody else had just professionally at first. And then more than that, but like, she didn't just like throw fucking stuff on me and whatever. Like she was like, like took me in, in a way that nobody had actually to the makeup chair for a guy. Yeah. It's like vulnerable place.

for sure i don't want to be in a makeup you know makeup chair is a weird experience for a guy who doesn't wear makeup you know what i mean like you got to do every now and then you got to do it you know what i mean like you got to do it you got to go you're on tv the lights you got to have some makeup yeah and you get in the makeup chair and it's fucking awkward unless the person is like it's a weird vulnerable position for me anyways when i sit in a makeup chair i'm like

It's like, I just want to put a hat on, put a hoodie on, go to work, not look at anyone, not think about how I look. You know, then you go on TV because I'm on TV too. And it's like an awkward thing for a guy who,

It's not a TV per se, but I've been doing it for 20 years now. So I know what the makeup chair is. And it's an interesting spot to be in with someone. And there are certainly people who are vulnerable. They're right in your face. They're right in your face. And you're just, it's like first thing in the morning in your face, last thing at night in your face. It's crazy. A lot of stuff goes on in that, in that little aura. But there's a difference when someone really sees you. Yeah. Has nothing to do with.

what you're doing, where you're at, what you're, you know, what you're, you're up, you're down, you're, you know, whatever, wherever in life you are, when someone sees you and actually appreciates you and actually like that, you, you reckon you see each other. Like people like, like the three of us who like I, when I met Cheryl, you know, it's like,

my reputation, whatever it is, like, precedes me. Like, there's an opinion. Yeah, there's an opinion. There's an opinion. The opinion walks in the door before I do. Yeah. And, right? And you guys, the same. Yeah, there's an opinion, you know? And it's all just fodder for people. Right? You know? It's entertainment, right? It's the entertainment for the world, the opinion. Yes. Whether it's, you know, local opinion, industry opinion, public opinion. I do think that

probably a through line with all three of us. Cause I feel it from you. You guys know each other better. Um, but we spend enough time to get together. Uh, actually at our core, we don't give a fuck. That's for sure. And I think that actually is the only kind of guy our wives could be with someone who does not give a fuck at the end, at the bottom line, when you get past, you could have success or fame or money or this or that anyone. Yeah.

At the core of me, if we don't connect and you're not a fucking cool, great, good person, I just see the person and it doesn't matter. And I think there's something about that. There's a wildness to that, that like there's no amount of money. I think that's...

our wives in particular need someone who doesn't give a fuck at their core. We can go along with something. Yeah, the not for sale sign. Right. It's like, yeah, as entertainers, right? Sometimes we have had to be a birthday clown and there's times when you go, okay,

But that's when you're new and you're like, oh shit. But there is at the core, all three of us could go right back to and we would survive. We'd be fine. And we'd go, okay.

Well, you know, so when you have like that not for sale sign, I think deep down around your soul, I do think that like it's, it is the thing that protects you in life because you don't sell yourself. Then you never have. But I think that strong women need that. They need men who don't give a fuck at their core, but they can go in the world, cooperate. They can,

Oh, you're going to be alive. They can be a gentleman, but yeah, yeah, exactly. But Nicole also knows that I would go do whatever I had to do. Uh, honestly, if I had to go work manual labor, I'll do it. Right. I don't have, I don't give a fuck when anyone thinks of me. I don't care about if people perceive me to be more successful than I am or whatever.

more of this than I am or whatever. I, at the, at, at the end of the day, I just try to be the best I can be. Uh, but if she is, if she fucks with me, then I'm good. Yeah. And that's how I feel. We all wish hiring was easier. I know I do. Robert half research indicates nine out of 10 hiring managers are having difficulty hiring. If you have open roles,

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Granger, for the ones who get it done. You know what we have to talk about in two seconds? Yeah. Lionel. Oh, yeah. Dude, you guys know each other. Dude, let me tell you something. I love...

Lionel. Yeah, he's easy to love. Who doesn't love? I've traveled with Lionel. I've seen, like, you guys have spent time together lots of places. Lots of places. He loves you too. And you know what? Talking about mentors and learning and who you aspire to be like, among the things I love about Lionel Richie

is he knows, accepts, loves, and is grateful for the fact that he is in the business of being Lionel Richie. Yeah. Do you know what I'm saying? He respects this, the legacy he has, which is one of one. One of one. That could never be created again by anyone. Never in history will there be another Lionel Richie. No. I think he...

Not only did he work hard for it, but he respects the position that life has found him in. And that's it. Mostly, it's someone who's worked very hard and is insanely talented, and he's a good person. And then there is that factor of, like, how did this happen to me? Like, there's a magic to it that feels... But I think he has a great respect for the craft.

And the opportunity. And the opportunity. There's a humility. There's a humility that he's always kind of had. And yet he's great. And he knows how to be great. And he's an amazing father-in-law. He loves you guys so much. Talks about you guys. And, you know, it's the body of work. It's what he occupies in life.

what he's accomplished, but also his, just his vibe. He could be so many other versions of himself. Yeah, it's a good vibe. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And it's like, it's, I find it so inspiring. Yeah, he's like wise, but humble. Yes. But great. Yes. Like you feel greatness when you sit with him, but he's also humble, so you can sit with him. Yes. You know what I mean? But he's also able to like really, I mean, um,

tap in in moments too where he's just like a lot of soul. So like, you know, if you're at a big dinner, you know, Lionel is the greatest like to be with because he's going to tell a story. He's going to make everyone in the room comfortable. He's going to make sure everybody feels seen. And then also you'll have like a really sweet moment just between, you know, you and me and him. Like, yeah, he's, you know, he's the OG. Yeah, he really is. Oh, gee. It's like, I, I, I love, I,

They're not making any more of them. No. Do you know what I mean? And just to be able to have him in my life in the little way that I do, it's been such a gift. Pretty special. Right? Because, listen, we all need to, as we get older, like as we get older, I want to go, how do you occupy that space?

space for, for people for like, you know, I'm not the, you know, he's, he's, he's the older guy in the room now. He's not the young guy in the room. And, and, you know, how do you dispense wisdom? Do you dispense wisdom? How do you own it? Like watching him literally, literally, actually walk down the street and

people is amazing. Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah. It's a clinic. It's a clinic. You know, here's how you do it. Here's how you do it. Right? Yeah. I mean, and you go to a restaurant. It's amazing. That's how you live your life in the public eye as a living legend. I have, I have a, um, just a deep reverence for his,

you know, his name and his legacy. And I feel like being in and around it now for 20 years, almost 20, probably 19. I feel like I'm, I'm extremely fortunate to have such a close relationship with him. And we talk usually late at night because he's a night owl. Yes. So we talk, we'll talk sometimes 11 PM, 10,

12 a.m. We always call each other out of the blue. Or he'll see I called him at like 1 p.m. And he'll call me at 11. Lionel time. Yeah, Lionel time. And we have very deep, meaningful, and light catch-up conversations. You know, what's up with the kids? What's up with Nicole? But he's been like, he's truly been like my guy.

For my entire relationship with Nicole. He loves her very dearly. He's always concerned. He told me that he's the Nicole whisperer. Yeah, he is. He was early on for sure. I love that. Just call me. What Lionel always does too though is he always will pull you aside and say like, I remember when I was getting married, when me and Cameron were getting married and since then, when the kids are born,

He always pulls you aside and says, I'm proud of you. If you ever need anything. He's a real dad like that. And you know another thing, this is Lionel, right? And he's a guy's guy. Yeah. We had a dinner. We had a family dinner and all of us were together. And it was...

Both of me and Cameron's fathers have passed away. So the kids don't have a grandfather here. And he pulled me aside and he was like, hey, I just want you to know, I know neither one of your dads is around. The kid's always got me. Amazing. I mean, that's Lionel, though. We call him Pop-Pop. Because he's living it.

You know, he's, he's pop up. Uh, but yeah, it's, it's incredibly special to know the man as you know, uh, but then to look at his legacy as for the accomplishment and, uh, it's beyond accomplishment. It's something that's like a part of Americana, you know, it's a part of our musical, uh, it's just so big and, and how deep it goes and how far back it goes foundational, you know? Um, and what he actually means to music. Right.

And then what he means as a man, it's incredible. And I would say it makes sense that you two are friends because your legacy is incredible as well. And you're extremely humble and easy to hang out with. But when you look at your career and look at how hard it is to navigate.

A career, let alone any career, any career, pick a, pick a tough career, pick doctor, pick astronaut, pick any pilot, whatever. Sustainability is hard. No matter where. Sustainability is hard. No matter what. Yeah. Um, reputation is hard. No matter what, especially in entertainment, you're going to hurt people's feelings by not doing their movie or their TV show. You're going to this, you're going to that to sustain a reputation, uh,

and away with people in an industry built to destroy people and chew them up and spit them out. Yeah. That's the model. Well, what's the most dangerous job you can have in the world? It ain't NASCAR or Formula One driving.

It's being an entertainer. And more specifically, how many people have you seen die in this field? In music, same thing. It's like, so to live, to build a life, it's yeah, it could be treacherous if you don't navigate it with real serious respect for what it is. So to, to, to have your career and your body of work, and then that alone is an accomplishment.

But then to do it and get to keep your family, have a good reputation and name in the world and standing in the world and interaction with the world and do it in a way that makes that's that looks good.

and like to do it like that. That's to me, that's the accomplishment because we see the train wrecks. People love watching the train wrecks. I don't love watching the train wrecks. And I know those real people going through real shit because it's fucking hard. Right. And so we all go, oh, because we all know it's like the human empathy thing is when we see someone fall, we all flinch because we know it hurts. And we actually, that's empathy. We don't want to fall. Right. And so,

watching people navigate entertainment specifically and the fame thing and the, this thing, and then do it with their family intact and,

Right. Is to me the biggest accomplishment. And that was my goal was I got like, I want to have a family more than I want to have anything else. So I'll trade if I have to. Right. For sure. Oh yeah. 100%. And then what I found, if you work together, me and my wife work together, we don't actually have to trade. We can, we have to scale some things back. We have to make decisions like can't do that. I can't be away from them for six months or she can't, but

We can work together to try to have the balance that we have and keep trying to get it better. But I think that's like the real success. Even though I look at you and I go, damn, this guy's fucking OG. Like he has been...

doing this for so long. What's great is that Rob, every now and then you'll tell me a story. Yeah, crazy stories. And I'll be like, oh, yeah. Because then in a moment, you're just friends and you forget. Oh, yeah, this dude's OG. Because you're humble, you forget. But you've been around, you've been, you bridged a time in like, in space, a time and space in like movies and entertainment and stuff to another place.

era of it, right? Like, and you bridged, like, there are people that aren't here anymore that you actually sat and had coffee with that were like,

you know, that, that, you know, there was a, that were paving roads. You know what I mean? And if, and not, and I'm a, I'm not, not, not to, I'm a private person, so I would never divulge, but to be at your birthday party, that was sick. The room is so crazy. It was fun, right? It was amazing. It was amazing, but it's a room full of other people who have accomplished things

incredible things coming to celebrate you because you guys all have been around and you've seen it all and you stood through all these different things and have success. And think about having success in every decade.

I'm lucky. Right. For sure. His Lionel's kind of the same, you know, it's like, you see these guys who have sustained, like doing great things. And then also too, it's like, you see each other through, I know we have this and we have this, uh, you know, uh, with our wives now too, but you have to see each other through decades.

Like we're evolving people. Like we're not going to make any mistakes. We're not going to go through something where we're growing and we're trying to, we're trying to, we, you know, figure something out, you know, or, or whatever. And like you, it, it really does take, um, can we talk about the grinder?

I would talk about the grinder every minute if I could. I think that's one of the things that's where we really hit it off because the grinder, that was one of my favorite. It's all time. You guys even know the grinder, remember the grinder and like it as much as you did is my, is that was, I was like, wow. Okay. Classic. Watch the cover to cover, uh, at least three times.

Amazing. At least three times. Dude, it's a go-to. Big miss. It's still a go-to. Big miss on like not… No, no. All it was was early. It was ahead of its time.

in the style. I just wanted another season. Me too. I just wanted one more season. Me too. Think about the platform, early days of platform-based content. We would have been, we were just early. So it was early, early, but it was one of my favorite. Oh my God. You turned me on to it. Yeah. How did you find it? You turned me on to it. I am a real consumer of

of TV and film. And I love comedy. So, and I've always loved your comedy. You play... Even the name. You and Nicole are similar.

You guys are very smart about... She's a great... Low-key genius. Yeah, like you... Straight woman, straight man, like low-key funny. It's very funny and you play a character almost like people think she is. So she plays this great character of what people think she's supposed to be. Like the character of you that's been written by a tabloid. Right. It's like the lowest...

denominator of, of like thought of like who she is. Right. Right. She plays it so well. Right. Right. And it's this incredibly like genius character. And it's similar to the, she was on a show called great news. Okay. It's on Netflix. You should watch it. It's hilarious. All right. It was just too early. It was, it was early days of platform Netflix, um, uh, this, that, so, um,

or Shares was on NBC or whatever. But either way, it was just too early. Yeah. And if it came out today, it would do really, really well. Yeah, The Grinder would have been... would be more accepted today. It's my favorite comedy I've ever been in. It's one of my favorites. It's my...

I look back, like, whenever I come across it, I can't believe we got away with what we got away with. Like, the storylines that we did. Like, I cannot... I mean, they talk about biting the hand that feeds you. We ripped the hand off that fed us. Yeah. It was hilarious. And annihilated network television and actors and Hollywood. And did you have fun with the crew on that show? Oh, my God. We laughed and laughed. I bet you guys laugh all the time. We just...

Would you have to reshoot stuff because everyone was laughing? Oh, all the time. Yeah. I could imagine. All the time. I laugh out loud when I watch that show. And we had such great people. We had Kumail Nanjiani on it. I mean, we had just the people who would come in and just play, that would play character parts in it were Maya Rudolph and just on and on and on. What year was that show? I want to say it was...

2015? It was like either 14 or 15. It was 10 years ago. Yeah, at least 10 years ago. Yeah, at least 10 years ago. Yeah. I think it was a little bit earlier.

It might have been. I think it was 2014 that it came out. And I'm trying to think if people are listening and haven't seen it. I think it's on iTunes. Like you can buy it. You can find it somewhere. You can find it somewhere. Yeah. Where was it originally? Fox. Fox, okay.

And... Oh, it was on network. It was a network show, dude. It wasn't even on a streaming platform. I'm telling you, if it wasn't... Oh my God. If it was on... I'm telling you, if it was on platform now, if it came out on Netflix or on Hulu or Paramount or on one of these... Peacock or whatever. Yeah, it would crush. It's just...

It was, it was just weird in between time is around the same time Nicole was doing that show. Great news. I thought the same thing was that in between, it was like before Spotify, like really took root, right? Like 2010 to 2015 was a really weird, it was like a wasteland of content music. Yeah. In, in like music, because it was like, you know, the streaming behavior was just starting and then it like really kind of took shape and like,

2015, 2016 when things started to kind of catch. And really, when we think five years ago was when things really crystallized for music, how people consume music. It's like five years ago, five, six years ago. So that was a tricky decade for when we think back, we came out in 99. Yeah, it was the changeover. And so from 99 to 2010,

things were a certain way that changeover was was it really like 2010 to 2000 you know right around like after you know 17 18 19 20.

It was such a tricky, weird time. It's, we're in it again. And, and well, we're the movie and TV businesses shifting 15 to 20 years behind what the music business went through. So we're going through it now and it's brutal. It's just brutal, but you know, well, this is the end of this. You guys have been, we could go on for hours. We could, I mean, we could just bro out.

But that's what I wanted this to be. I wanted, I knew that having you guys here would be like the coolest, like,

Sitting around like the campfire. To have a cigar. Have a cigar, you know, watch. We just need the kids running around. Yeah. And that would have been. Well, that's what it's like. And that's the thing for anyone listening. I think it is, you know, it's something I always dreamed about. I dreamed about having a loving family surrounded by, you know, having traditions that we keep. And then like, and so, yeah.

I love you. You're one of my models when I get to be in your house with your, how long have you been married? 34 years? Yeah, and you guys still love each other. You can see it. You can feel it.

You can, you know what I mean? Yeah. So, um, I love you, bro. Same. I'm glad. I'm glad we found each other. I love that. There's two of you. Yeah. Two for the price of one. Price of one, baby. It's a good deal. It's a really good deal. It's a steal. It's a really good deal. Um, I love you guys. This is awesome. Yeah. And we'll carry on this conversation, uh, like later tonight. Well, we go play golf or something. Let's do it. All right. Thanks dude. Those are the nicest men.

That just like when you look up decent, just decent and what they've accomplished. We didn't even get, how about that? We didn't even get into the music really, but I thought it was really rare to hear guys talk like that. Um, so I, I didn't even look at all this. I didn't even get into my, all my stuff, my good Charlotte. We're going to do, we're going to, I tell you what, I'm going to have them back and we're going to do just good Charlotte.

So I make you that promise. Thanks for watching, listening here on Literally. We will be back with more fun next time. Don't forget to download all the apps. Tell your pals, give us good reviews on Apple, all that stuff.

Be a loyal soldier and you will be rewarded. Thank you. You've been listening to Literally with Rob Lowe, produced by me, Sean Doherty, with help from associate producer Sarah Begar and research by Alyssa Grau. Engineering and mixing by Joanna Samuel. Our executive producers are Rob Lowe for Low Profile, Nick Liao, Adam Sachs, and Jeff Ross for Team Coco, and Colin Anderson for Stitcher. Booking by Deirdre Dodd. Music by Devin Bryant. Sports...

Special thanks to Hidden City Studios. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time on Literally.

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