Mark Duplass: It’s More Fun to Believe
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Writer, director, producer, actor, star. You see him in The League, Morning Show, Creep. I mean, director, producer. I mean, he's just kind of one of these guys that is always at the forefront of whatever is interesting. He's got this amazing new show on Netflix just came out called Penelope.

But here's my favorite, Crimes of the Paranormal on Hulu. We're going to get down. We're going to talk about the wood ape. We're going to talk about the goat man. Where else are you going to hear that stuff but here with Mark Duplass and me.

We have to have met, haven't we? I want to believe it, but I think I've just had you in my life for so long coming through a screen. I know, I know, I know we, I think we have been at Jen Aniston's house together for one of her parties. Yes, yes, yes. And I think there may have been some like light rubbing of elbows, but I can say with certainty that this is going to be our first in-depth conversation. Yes, for sure.

I don't know how in-depth we're going to go. I shouldn't say for certain. But get ready. I mean, long conversation. I mean, you know, I am. I'm the Phil Donahue of here we go. So, by the way, I did. I did Phil Donahue show when I was like a kid because he was from Dayton, Ohio, and he was the local talk show before Phil became Phil. Huge.

yeah and he i mean it's it's revolutionary what he what he became he started in dayton though oh it's incredible he has a series of interviews with ayn rand that oh oh no i know them believable like because i grew up and i was just like oh it's still donahue and just kind of doing lighter and flippier stuff and i was like no this guy was a hard thing in-depth television journalist i didn't know i missed it and her interviews are

Off the wall, bonkers insane. Bonkers. Amazing. She's got ideas. Phil Donahue had a move that is the greatest ever. He had a hand mic and he would tuck it under his armpit. Do you remember that? I remember it. I love that move. Do you remember the armpit tuck? Yeah. Why has nobody clipped that move? It's so... Well, you know, when something is done to perfection... There's no reason. Why would we touch it?

Well, first of all, usually whatever somebody is coming on to talk about, I'm like, okay, we'll get that to the end. Sounds great. But what you've got, Crimes of the Paranormal, is so in my dojo. Like, I'm looking over...

All the stuff you've done. I mean, we need, first of all, we need to talk about the Sasquatch stuff, the Mount St. The mounts that all of that. I mean, how did, how did you get interested in this paranormal world? And do people accuse you of being a tinfoil hat person? Like my sons accused me of being.

Well, that makes me very happy to hear that you have that sort of intimacy with your sons, that they can rip you in that way. It shows that they feel safe with you. So this is a good thing. So look, here's the truth. I am not really a paranormal conspiracy theorist person. I came up as an indie filmmaker, and then I became a documentary filmmaker, and

Um, and then some friends of mine brought me this story about Sasquatch. And I was like, yeah,

I don't really want to make like an exploitative Sasquatch documentary that like makes fun of people because they're so stupid because they believe in Sasquatch. And it's like kind of Christopher Guest light. And then you play kooky music. I was like, I don't need the exploitation. Like we're good. You know? And they were like, okay, but just hear me out for a second.

the way that these people believe is their truth. And there, there is a way to do this with respect that will be fascinating. And I was like, all right, you know, I'm kind of interested. So they pitched me this story about Sasquatch and, and I'll, I'll never forget it. We were sitting up in my office,

I'm in the third floor of this darkly lit attic in our house in Highland Park, which is our offices. So it almost felt like we're around a campfire. They're telling me this story. And they said, okay, we're up in a weed farm in Northern California. There are a few bodies that are ripped limb from limb. All the weed is left behind and all the money is left behind. Who would do that other than Sasquatch? It's amazing.

And I was like, well, okay. All right. You got me. You got me there a little bit. Like if that's a crime. Yeah. They're taking the weed. They're taking the money. Um,

And then as we started to dig further and further into it, the answer became, well, I suppose the only person who would do that, that isn't Sasquatch is a person who wants everybody around there to believe that Sasquatch did it so that they can control them with that information. And that opened up this whole thing about alternative facts and the culture that we are in right now. And I was like, okay, no,

Now, now I get it. Now, I guess it's time for the tinfoil hat. I guess we got to go. So this, this is a true crime. It is a crime that happened. And it happened in the, what is it? The golden triangle? Is that a thing? Something like that? Yeah. And that, and that's an area in, is it Northern California? Northern California. Yeah. Yeah.

Is it around the Trinity River and all that stuff? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so to me, you know, not to, cause I don't want to dwell too much on Sasquatch, which is out and you can see it. And I think it's a good comp for kind of how we sprung into out there and our new show. What was, what ended up happening is when we released that show, we had,

we were just barraged with stories of people being like, oh, you think that's crazy? Do you know about the lizard man? Do you know about the goat man? Do you know? I do. I do. About La Llorana, you know, all this stuff, you know? So, and I was in this really interesting position of like, I've got this great filmmaking team,

But like, for me, they were all new stories. I'm not like you. I didn't have the tinfoil hat on. So I wasn't like, oh, I know the story. Let's go and tell it. I was like a kid being able to like discover these stories for the first time. Yeah. And they were so fascinating to me. And I remember I constantly kept thinking, I was just like, how is it possible that these people...

these things, you know? But I would constantly remind myself of, like, I grew up in New Orleans, Catholic. Very quickly, by the time I was like 10 or so, it was like, oh, I don't believe any of this. I'm a pragmatic person. And

And then found myself at like a slumber party and all my friends brought out the Ouija board, you know? Oh boy. Oh boy. And, and I, and as soon as I came out, my body like tensed up and I was like, Oh no, I'm not doing that. I'm like, I thought you didn't believe. And I was like, well,

Just in case. Yes, of course. That little part of the brain that's open, I think is one thing I really want for people who show up to watch these shows. Because we all have that. Look, dude, I'm still scared of this in my...

pool at night because I saw Jaws when I was four years old. So like your body holds these irrational things inside of you that your mind can't really transcend. And that's a fun part of this show. So what do you do? Okay, so here's the thing I have. So I have a friend. He's in law enforcement. I mean, straight as an arrow.

like a lauded, decorated sheriff. And I did a show called The Low Files with my sons where it was Scooby-Doo meets Anthony Bourdain, Parts Unknown. And we got in a car and we investigated paranormal activities. This is you and your two sons? Yes. It's called The Low Files. You can get it on iTunes. Well, I know what I'm doing tonight.

How old were they when you did this? Old enough to mostly be hung over in the back seat and be so angry at me. It's really fun. It's so, I wish I could have done it forever. That sounds incredible. Oh, dude, we did. Yeah, I mean, it was, well, I'll tell you more about Low Files in a second. But as I did it,

Sure enough, like you, people come forward. And so this is like a most grounded human. I know. And he goes, well, do you know about the goat man? And I go, what? He goes, oh.

Yeah, I guess Operation Paperclip, when they brought the Nazi scientists over after World War II to work on the, we took every great thinker after World War II. They gave him the insane asylum in Camarillo and let him run, you know, genetic experience. And it got crazy and they shut it down. I'm like, uh-huh, sure. Yeah. Okay, that's great. He goes, but me and my buddies were driving through the orange fields.

of Camarillo on Chiquitos, I'll never forget it. It was New Year's Day, middle of the day, none of us are stoned, none of us are drunk, nothing. We're in the middle of nowhere surrounded by orange groves. And I look over and in the darkness of the orange groves is a man standing and the bottom half of him is a goat. And I go, whoa, hang on, hang on a second. Hang on, hang on a second. You're telling me, you, this person, living, breathing person I've known forever is sitting here in my kitchen table,

You're telling me you looked in an orange grove. You did. Not that you heard of. You saw a goat man. He goes, yep. No, I aren't. What are you? Oh, no. He goes, look, man, I don't know. And the attitude is, hey, what do you want from me? I'm just telling you what I saw. He's not like trying to sell you anything. He's not.

And, and there's, by the way, he's never tried to profit off of it. I've known him for years. It's never come up. It's not like something he leads with to, you know, get girls or to start a conversation. It just was it. And so what, what, as you're doing the show, you must've come across a bunch of folks like that. And you just go, whoa.

I mean, my first question to you, I will answer that in a second, but my first question to you is, is this a friend of yours? I mean, you've known him for a while, right? Yeah, 100%. Intimacy level, because normally when I'm hearing these stories, I don't have that sort of intimacy level. Correct. That's what blew my mind about it. So do you challenge back immediately? How straight are you with what your natural reaction is? You know what? I'm going to hold back a little bit and respect this. No, no, no, no, no, dude. I'm asking every question that comes to my mind. Yeah.

Like I said, were you drunk? Were you high? Did other people see it? So after that, what do you believe at this point occurred in that moment? Listen, I interviewed the Hoopa Indians in the Trinity area for the low files. And they tell, they have a dance every year on the reservation that no white people are allowed to go to. It's been going on for centuries.

And they tell the story of, they have a name for it, but it's a very handsome man who sometimes shows up who is the most amazing dancer, super handsome. And all the women want to dance with him and they do. But then you look down and he has goat feet. I thought it was Liberace when you said that. I wasn't sure where we were going. They looked down and he's Liberace. And these stories are told

Absolutely. No. And like I said, I know this. I, I, so what do I, I have no belief. I like, you know who Travis Walton is the famous UFO abductee. They made, they made fire in the sky. Yep. He was one of our first interviews on low. Oh, fascinating. Right. Yeah. You sit with them and you do the deep dive and you're just like, well,

Why would he make it? I mean, it's a mind blower. And I love because I'm the kind of person who like the ad campaign was, it's more fun to believe. That was our ad campaign. And that's sort of where I come from. Like, I want to live in a world where the Loch Ness Monster is real. I love it. I love it.

And it's not an equal sum game. It's not like there's going to be a test at the end. And if you get it wrong, you're penalized. Well, it's like, how far removed are we from the people who tell you, like, I was very close to my grandfather and I lost him at a young age. And like, once a year, he comes and visits me and we talk and sits in the room with me. And we hear that. And I think that most of us are like,

I'm not totally sure I believe in ghosts, but that feels credible that those things could be around. Why is that so much more strange than the goat man? Where's the line for that? Where's the line? For me, it's clear as a documentarian, which is that every one of these subjects demands your absolute respect and listening to them and being in their environment and feeling like this is their truth.

And I'm going to listen to this and take this as seriously as if this is a trauma survivor who was telling me about something that happened to them because that's just what they deserve. That's the journalist or the documentarian's approach. Now, I wasn't in the field for a lot of these stories. We had different directors come on for each episode. And part of what we wanted to do with this show is so that it doesn't become...

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Ohio is known for being the heart of it all, not just because of its location, but because of the focus on things here that matter the most. Family. Community.

More and more companies are building their businesses in Ohio or relocating because they see the opportunity to pioneer innovation in a place their people and their families will love to live. The cost of living in Ohio is 11% less than the national average, which means your paycheck goes further for all the things you love to do. Not only will you save money, but you'll save a much more precious resource.

time. The average commute in Ohio is just 24 minutes, meaning you get home quicker to be with people you love. I'm from Ohio. I don't need an advertisement to tell me how great Ohio is. My whole family is from Ohio. My grandpa ran the Spot Restaurant in Sydney, Ohio. Greatest hamburgers and pies in the world. Thank you very much. It's still there. Started in 1911. Lots of great stuff. It's

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I got another story that just came up. So, I go to a lot of Dodger games. And this is the thing, like, you tell me how you would react to this. I go to a lot of Dodger games. And in the, I think, the fourth or fifth inning, they traditionally honor an amazing service member. Yep. Right? So, they honor the service member. End of the game. I'm walking out late. I see him.

I go up to him and say, hey, thank you for your service. Did you have a good time? He goes, I love your show, The Low Files. Oh, you watch it? That's great. He goes, yeah, I actually saw Bigfoot tracks. You saw Bigfoot tracks? He goes, yeah, I have them on my phone. Hang on. Goes to his phone, pulls them up. I said, what's the backstory? He goes, I live in New Mexico. I was 200 miles from anywhere. I'm on my ATV.

I'm driving. There's nothing around anywhere. I go to take a piss and they're right there. And I'm like, you know what I mean? He didn't go out there to try and catch Bigfoot. No. He was hanging out and he happened to pee.

On Harry and the Hendersons tracks. Yes. And then you go, and then you, I'm like, I'm steeped enough in it to go, is, were you perhaps anywhere near an Indian reservation? He goes, yeah, I was actually, it was on it because they're totally interconnected. So it's, look, I don't know. Why does this stuff keep showing up in my life? And what am I supposed to do?

Go, hey, you war hero nutter. Exactly. You know what? We're going to take back that award we just gave you because you're crazy. Yeah. I mean, look, it's really interesting because you think about this whole world and it's like,

the internet has changed a lot for us and Reddit has changed a lot for us with these communities, right? You know, it's like, you used to be tucked away on Staten Island cable access at 3.30 in the morning, like talking from under the covers to nine people. But now these stories have big access. And a part of me feels like,

You know, someone who feels marginalized wants to feel like they belong. And if some people continually tell you, I don't believe you, I don't believe you, it makes you want to push that much harder. Right. And that is a portion of this community. But you're actually talking about something a little different, which is just like the agenda to receive attention by talking about this doesn't quite make sense for the people you're talking about. They got their thoughts. I'll do one better. They're doing their own thing. I got one for you.

I don't know where you are on UFOs. And she may be mad at me. I don't care. It's my podcast. I'm doing it. I'm going to spill some private beans. So, you know, Mike Myers, that's a great actor, comedian, his longtime wife that they've been separated now for forever. Robin Roseanne, very well known in our world. You probably have run into her. She's like, oh yeah, I, when I was a little girl, I walked out and a UFO came up my street and everybody saw it. I said, I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah, I know it came.

It came up the street, hovering, silent, didn't make a noise. I ran in and hid under my bed. It's a very famous Long Island. Yeah. Maybe that's the Long Island thing you have in your, I don't know, be like, what the, what? Yeah. But again, same, same, very matter of fact. Oh, there's nothing in it for them. Cameron Diaz told me she's seen a UFO twice.

So let me, let me twice. And by the way, her story of it is the most bonkers of anyone I've ever heard. Sober ever sober, sober, 100% sober with a bunch of her girlfriends in my, in Miami. So no, I don't want to pivot too much off of this, but I'm thinking about your, your boys. Obviously they went and did the show with you. So there's a certain acceptance of this. Hey,

Has there ever been a moment with you guys, though, where it feels like a little sticky, where they're just like, Dad, really? Come on. In that way that we can sometimes show up at Thanksgiving and there are political differences and there's things that maybe we shouldn't talk about these things and they put a wedge between you. Has it ever gotten to that point for you with them? I would say the episode where we went hunting the wood ape. Okay.

It's always the wood ape that gets you, you know? It isn't. It's always which they had me at wood ape. The minute they called it the wood ape, I was like, we're going. We're going. Yeah. Right. Because not, and, and the, the people who hunt the wood ape or feel that Sasquatch and Bigfoot is, is a terrible pejorative. You do not, is a wood ape. I would, I would think it would be vice versa. Wood ape feels more like generic terminology and Sasquatch Bigfoot feels a little bit more, um,

honoring the specificity of the of the cryptid if you will but what do i know that's the but listen and listen and i only know what i learned from doing it but we um well we pulled out our guides pulled us over at one point and we're like yeah that's a that's a nut crack what do they what's it called a nut cracking station yeah a nut cracking station and you look and it's a flattened rock with a little bowl kind of bowl and a kind of rock mallet

Like something that you could use as a mouth, a rock sitting next to it. And then are all these, um, acorns that have been smashed into what looks like peanut butter. I'm like, that's what they eat. I'm like,

And I'm like... And you're like the Sasquatch? I'm like, no, God damn it, the wood ape. The wood ape. And my sons are looking at me like, that was the bridge too far for them. If you're asking, what's the bridge too far? It was the wood ape. It was the nutcracking station of the wood ape. But the whole thing was... Because I had my youngest, John Owen...

who is the co-creator of Unstable, which is a comedy that he and I do together. He's the one who's against all of it, doesn't believe in any of it. And my son Matthew, he's a lawyer, so he's sort of like very analytical. And I'm the guy that just wants to believe because it's just anything in service of a great story. Yeah.

So I can ask you a quick question about working with your son. So I have two daughters, 16 and 12. My oldest has just turned 16. She graduated high school early. She's a lot like me and my wife. She's just like, I know I've been wanting to be a filmmaker and actor my whole life.

I just let me out of school. Let me go. Let me go. Okay, here we go. We made a short film together and it was went really well. She and I acted together. My wife directed it and we took it to film festivals and use that as a little testing ground, you know, and we're talking about doing a television show together where I would amazing real life father and daughter.

And I'm very excited about it for a number of reasons. I'm no stranger to working with people I love. My brother and I have run a company together for years. I work with my wife. Different than working with your child. What have you learned in this process that you might be able to Obi-Wan me a little bit as I head into a dangerous territory? That's also exciting.

It's super fun. My guess is you're way more prepared for it than I ever was because of your, like you say, you're with your brother and your wife. I mean, I had an advantage in that our idiosyncrasies, our friction points, such as they may or may not be, were part of the DNA of the show. Right. Right. So the show was conceived of,

this is unstable on Netflix now, was conceived by him trolling me so viciously and funnily on social media. And so, and then my sort of like, you know, activate your core. You're on camera. Yeah. Like that, that kind of dad stuff. Yes. Is it's exact. It's if you can, if you can be your authentic father, you're,

Yeah.

Does that make sense? Yes. Yes, of course. Whatever your fears are. Right. Like, I'm very involved. Like, very involved. Yeah, okay. Like, I'm very interested in who he's dating. Yeah. And he hates that. And so we have a lot of scenes where I'm talking to him about, and he's like, it's none of your business. Stay out of it. Mm-hmm.

And I'm like, well, yeah, but I just, I just, I guess I just, I'm wondering what, what she actually brings to the table. Yeah.

And like, he's like, what brings to the table? What's wrong with you? So it's all that kind of, what I'm hearing from you is like, there, there, there are this, these little sub stack subtext friction points that exist between a parent and their child. And those could come up and sneak up on you and, and bite you in the ass. If you try to keep them in the closet. So rather than do that, take them right in the closet, throw them right in the middle of the room, shine the light on them, lean right into them, make that, um,

you know, just an essential element of what you're doing. And then you don't have to be afraid of anything anymore because you've cast the light on the demon, so to speak. 100%. Yeah.

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What, what's happening with this, with the show? Can you tell me more intrigued? Uh, well, uh, the show we're, we're just starting to take this thing out that it would star me and my daughter, but it's, it's really, it's, it's based upon, I've been having this feeling lately, and this is, uh, gonna sound more reductive than it should, but I don't really know how to say it any other way that, that I, I,

I haven't done a lot in the YA space. And I've just felt that YA representation on TV, it just doesn't often give a ton of respect to the complex inner lives of the kids. And some of that is not anybody's fault. Some of that is...

The way that the development system in Hollywood works now, it's like there's only so much time for the lead characters who aren't often the kids. And if it's a kid's thing, they got to make it genre. So it's more about the action. But I just find when it comes time to representing their inner lives, it doesn't match up with how deeply complicated and rich the inner lives of my children are. So I've been thinking about, okay, well, how can I do this? How do I use whatever my platform is to do this?

to address this. This new show that I'm going to do with my daughter is part of that. And the first one I did is another Netflix show of ours. It's called Penelope and it comes out tomorrow actually. And it's about a 16 year old girl who doesn't really feel comfortable

right and doesn't really feel connected to her friends and to her school. And she's not an outlier. She's not a weirdo. She's fine. She can fake it like anybody. And one day she just decides to drop everything and walk off into the woods and starts living out there. And it's kind of a little bit, it's got a little bit of a fairytale element to it. Um, and I

It was something that was born out of... I don't know if you deal with this at home, but I'm constantly trying to find...

And he shows that my wife and my daughters and I can agree upon to watch. 100%. 100%. It's horrible. And it keeps the lowest, lowest common denominator programming. Right. And it's like, all we've got left is like, well, I guess we'll watch Gilmore girls again. Like maybe is that what it's going to be? Like, cause that's what we have, you know? And during the pandemic, I weirdly started watching this, like,

this kind of low rent reality survivor show. It was a Canadian show called Alone, where they'd send people out. Oh, I know it well. You know Alone. Okay, great. My son and I watch it all the time. So here's what we see. I was like, oh, this is a dorky dad show. I'm going to watch this by myself. But then like my daughters were like fascinated by it. Just slowly watching someone try to make fire and build a shelter for like 15 minutes and have no cell phone anywhere nearby and have to confront somebody

sitting with themselves in silence and start to emotionally break down. And my eight-year-old's like, dad, I don't know if Matt's going to make it. He's got unresolved issues with his mom. He's getting all into it. And my parents are coming over. And I was like, how did this show become the great connector for us? So I was like, fuck. I was thinking about that at the same time I was thinking, as I'm sure you're well aware,

In our Hollywood system right now, you cannot sell a television show unless there's a murder in the first 15 seconds and a plot twist another 15 seconds after that and another 15 seconds. And I was like, we need a reset. We need to blow this whole fucking thing up and slow it all down to something because it's just too much. So I was like, okay, so I'm going to make this really slow paced show.

meditative show about this girl going to live in the woods and we're going to watch her as she builds her shelter. We're going to watch her as she sets a fire and think, is this going to work? And this happened during the pandemic and I had all the time in the world in my hands. So I was like, I'm just going to write the whole fucking first season. So I wrote the whole first season on spec and I brought it to my creative partner, Mel Eslin, who runs my company. And she was like, I love this. This is great. And

Just all false humility aside, I've had enough success in this business that I feel like I can usually go out and be like, hey, guys, Netflix, HBO, this is going to be pretty cheap. And hopefully we'll go to Sundance, we'll get some awards. It may not be your huge show, but you don't have to promote it like Game of Thrones. And it'll be a good little added value thing. And I can get a yes. And I brought it out. And everybody said no.

And it was a full-on ego decimator. Like, I was just like... I thought I had made it to the point where they're like, oh, they... And you have scripts. It's not like an idea. It's like, here it is. And then I was like, these are really good. And like, are you crazy trying to make television paste like this in 2024? Are you insane? Like, this isn't Norway, bro. Like, we can't do that here, you know?

And I'm close with the executives. They were honest with me. They're like, it's beautiful writing. It's elegant. It's incredible. We can't make this. Then I was like, yeah, what am I going to do now? And I was kind of like...

Well, I came up making $3 movies in my kitchen with my brother. I had no connections in this industry. I came up with the independent film sphere. And what we used to do is we'd make movies cheaply. We'd take them to Sundance, sell them for a profit, share them with our crew. And it was great. It's a little creative communist model that worked for us. And I was like, why can't we do this for TV?

Everybody was like, well, the reason is because it's really expensive to make a season of television. I was like, yeah, but I'm on the morning show and I've sold some stuff. I'm making some money. So I asked for my wife's permission and I emptied a significant portion of my bank account into making eight episodes of this television show completely independently on my own. And it is the scariest thing.

Oh my God. I have ever done. Oh my God. I just felt compelled. I felt like it was a little Phil Donahue and me coming out a little like, like this is. You tucked that microphone right up. Tucked that microphone up my ass. Yeah. No kidding. And I was like, you know, so let's, let's do it. And, um,

And we took it to Sundance and eight, eight episodes, eight episodes. Yeah. I made them all eight. How long are, I'm just curious. How long are they? They're half hour episodes. Um, eight half hour episodes. You take all of it to Sundance. I take one episode to Sundance, but I've got them all finished, you know, and I've got a trailer and I got that poster. I got everything that I need to sell the thing, you know? Um,

And thankfully, we were able to convince Netflix to come on board. They bought the domestic rights to it, so that's going to release tomorrow. Wow. And something, I mean, I don't want to get too much about the business, but it is kind of fascinating how this... No, no, no, it's fascinating. The other thing is that

So what ended up happening is Netflix was like, look, we want to buy this thing from you, but we do see it as a risk. So we're not going to pay you a ton of money for this. So I was like, well, if you're not paying a ton of money, we're not going to do the whole world rights deal forever. You're going to get the US for a couple of years, and we're going to test it out, and we're going to launch it.

So I have this huge gamble going on how this thing performs. Because if it goes really, really well, Netflix will want to rebuy it. Then everybody around the world will see it. I can sell off all those other territories. And then...

What has what would be the ideal scenario and this is where I really I'm kind of trying to create a whole new model of independent television now what this accidentally does for me is it makes me the studio and it puts me in the driver's seat Netflix doesn't own my show they have the rights to show it for a couple of years so if it doesn't perform the first season and

They can't just cancel the whole thing. I have the right to take it somewhere else and make it with a different distributor. Let's say I sell it to 10 different countries, 10 separate deals, and seven of them want to make it next year. Great. I'll just find three other distributors for the next thing. So what started out as an immense ego-crushing roadblock has now kind of turned into this, holy shit, this was very difficult and difficult.

painful and scary along the way, but I think this might be a path to take forward to make more outlier television as TV should become further homogenized by the development system. Because

At the end of the day, I have one strong thing going for me, which is I was at the Emmys last weekend, and I saw Baby Reindeer win every goddamn award there was. That's a show with stars that was made cheaply that's just very different, and people connected to it. So why not Penelope? Why not my little show about a 16-year-old girl running off into the woods and trying to reclaim this connection to nature that we've all lost? So anyway, so you're catching me on a very...

I would say surprisingly for me, raw, open and vulnerable day where I felt pretty secure in the industry. Like, I don't know how you feel, but it's like, you've been around for a long time. You kind of got some level of tenure where you're going to be okay. I've kind of felt that way for a while. Like I'm probably gonna be okay financially. Maybe one show will get canceled. I'll get another gig. I can make it. This is the first time where I felt like, Oh fuck, unless this goes well, this could be bad.

Oh my, no, I mean, I can't, I'm so, it's really exciting. I had no flipping idea. This is amazing. I mean, God bless you for doing this. This is super exciting. And then we'll see. Well, let me ask you this. So again, I love how deep dive industry this has become, but this is, this is why I do the podcast. I,

If we were on another show, we'd have a producer going, wrap it up. But this is my show, so I get to do what I want. When Netflix does their seven-day numbers call with you on Penelope, and then they do their 28-day, you're going to be sedated. You're going to have to be... I'm going to lose my mind. You're going to be like, use your mind. Here's the thing, though.

Well, the completion numbers. Yes, exactly. I'll be of two minds, right? There will be the business-minded head of production company, husband to wife who I asked to let me spend this money. That person will be very, very concerned. And I want those numbers to be really, really big. But there's also this other person that exists in me who was...

From when I was 19 to 21, I was a singer-songwriter living out of my van selling CDs. And if I made $87 that night, it was a crush. And I was an independent filmmaker going to Sundance who made movies for a couple hundred dollars. And if I sold them for 10 grand, it was a crush. So there may be a moment where Netflix says, we're sorry to inform you that only 6 million people watched your show in the first 28 days. So...

So to me, that'll be, I wish more had seen it. So it could have been the financial windfall I needed, but there will also be, you know, Lloyd Christmas from dumb and dumber saying, so you're telling me there's a chance. Yeah. Super excited. What was all that one in a million talk, you know? Right. Right. So I, I am fortunate to have both of those people live inside of me, but yes, I am feeling a little, a little, a little scared. Yeah.

I cannot wait to follow this. Well, my hope, and just to close this out, my hope is that this can help to blaze a trail for a new ecosystem. This happened in independent film in the 80s and 90s. Films were getting homogenized, and then we had this wonderful group of filmmakers, Richard Linklater, Spike Lee, Robert Rodriguez, Steven Soderbergh, come out there and make these independent films. Holy shit, the studios want to buy them. Now the studios realize, we have to go to Sundance. We have to overpay to get these things. All of a sudden, this...

massive ecosystem springs around it. Jobs, incredible art, new distributors, the whole thing came out of independent film. And I believe in a couple of years, the studios who are making TV are going to turn around and go, shit, audiences are rebelling. We're feeding them the same thing and they don't want it. And we didn't even make enough of it. And now what are we going to do? And I want to be there. And I want a bunch of other companies to be there with

here, here's some episodes of TV that's already made for you. I think it'll be good for the culture. And honestly, selfishly, I think it's going to be good business for those who are willing to invest in themselves and take that risk. I might be wrong, but that's what I'm trying to sort of norm array and march towards. It's amazing. Did you, are you a Jeremiah Johnson fan by any chance? Yeah.

I just think going out in the wilderness. Love it, dude. I mean, to me, I don't know what your experience is with nature, but like,

I am, you know, I talk about this all the time on my social media. I'm someone who deals with a lot of mental health issues and have for a long time. And for me, like, I'm acutely aware of what technology and my phone has done to me in the last 10 to 15 years for sure. And I try to get out in a backpacking trip just three to four days at a time. And the first day is a little painful and I'm a little uncomfortable and I'm checking my phone, you know.

And the second day is like a little bit better. And then like something happens almost like a detox where like around day three, like this little euphoria starts to kick in for me, you know? And then I come back to society and it goes away for a little bit. And then I go back out there. But yeah,

But to me, I wanted to bring a show to people. I always describe Penelope as a reset for television. And there was this thing that happened in the jazz scene in the late 50s where John Coltrane was just like,

a maniac, just like as many notes as possible. And everyone was just like, how can jazz get any crazier and fast paced? Where do we go from here? And Miles Davis released Kind of Blue. And he honked his horn maybe seven times throughout the whole record and just slowed it down and reset everything. It was like this big cleanser, you know? And I would love it if Penelope could offer that, A, a place where families can watch something together, and B, a sense of like,

oh shit, I need to be, I need to kind of be cleaned out and reset a little bit here. We actually had a screening last night at Vidiot's in LA and it was fascinating watching even the kids in the theater. It was like, there was like visible, like worming in the seats for the first episode as it was just like, you are torturing me trying to show me something with this pacing. And then they kind of eventually got lulled into it, you know? And I was like, okay, shit, this is working. Oh my God, I can't.

My youngest son had to do a, and he's open. I'm not, he's open about this. He's, I'm 34 years sober. He's seven years sober. So as he got sober, part of what he had to do was he had to go on a, this is a vision quest. And he had to be alone in a tent by himself, no human contact for four days. Holy shit. And they would come and drop food off, but that person could only drop the food off and not speak to him.

And then there's a journal. And then he had to journal. His journals are like the ramblings of a madman by day three. And so, and he was, he would have been, let's see at the time he would have been 17. Wow. So literally. That's your journey.

It's that journey. We don't know how to be with ourselves anymore. I think back to the person I was living in my van, the amount of quiet time I would spend by myself. Now I would go a day, a whole day without talking to people. I could really sit with myself and deal with it. And I did deal with mental health stuff then, but if somehow the amount of meditative quiet time I had allowed me to, I'm so bad at this point. Like if I have to wait three minutes for somebody to show up to a breakfast meeting,

I'm immediately on my phone. I cannot sit with myself and I'm working on it. And, you know, I'm sure you've dealt with some of the seven years sobriety journey. That's a big part of that process, you know, but I've really slipped into kind of a bad place.

Do we, what's your regimen? Do you have a, do you have a thing where you lock your phone up for X amount of time a day, or you don't look at it till 10 o'clock in the, or like any of that stuff? Yeah. So, so I have, I've had so many regimens and I've broken all of them as we all, as we always do. You know, my, mine is like more of an overall mental health thing that I, I try to do where basically for me, there's like a, a couple of rules, but it's like,

I will not break. I will not do less than eight hours of sleep. I have to have that. That's critical for me. So like meetings get pushed, whatever it is, I got to get my eight hours of sleep. I have to get at least 20 minutes of fairly intense cardio in, in order to get my endorphins going. Cause if I don't do that, then it's crazy town, you know? So that's, those are like the immovables for me, you know? Same, same.

And then, you know, I try to delay waking up, you know, like we all do. And just like, grab your phone before the first yawn is over, you know? Right. Yes. But I'm not always good about it, you know, because I'm a little bit of a junkie and I, and I rationalize and convince myself that it's fine. You know, I want to see how my stocks are doing this morning. So, so I am, I am not nearly as good as I should be.

But I love that the two things you picked are my two third rails. You do not screw with them. My sleep is paramount, as is my physical fitness.

Real physical activity. What do you need? If you're a little crunched for time, physical activity-wise, what's the thing you got to have? You're right. It's definitely... Well, if I'm crunched for time, it would be high-level cardio. That's it. That's for me. Yeah. If I've only got 25 minutes, I know how to do that, but I'm not lifting weights for 25 minutes. I'm doing wind sprints. Yes.

I'm a maniac on my elliptical machine. They're just like flinging sweat everywhere. Mark, please, this is disgusting. But that's one of my favorite things to do. And then I'll organize my phone calls for after that. And then I'll do like fast walking, like 14, 15 minute miles, walking through the neighborhood, trying to continue a little bit of that workout while I'm, you know, muting in between, trying not to let them hear my panting, you know? Yeah.

But it's the only way to go. And I also, because I live in Santa Barbara and I commute, I have so much time in the car, which is deadly. Because deadly, being sedentary and just sitting, it's the absolute, absolute worst. And that's why you got to get out there and crunch it. Yeah. Do either of your boys still live with you? No. My wife and I are empty nesters. How's it feeling? I feel like I'm going to be facing that at some point soon. I'm like...

A little scary. A chapter in my second book was an essay about sending my first son away to college. Your kids are 16 and what? They're 16 and 12, yeah. Oh, you should read it. Yeah. And people share it now, parents now. It's become one of those things that every year gets shared by parents sending their kids off to college because it eviscerated me. I was a shell. It was not good. But,

Ironically, the empty nest part has been great. So it was the, like the, something about the, the, the first like letting go was really hard. And then you realize, oh, I lived, they lived. Yes. And there's a new chapter and it's in many ways better than,

and I see them and am as close as I ever was. That makes me feel really good. I mean, my wife and I, we stayed very close. We haven't lost each other through. That was a good piece of advice we got from some people who had been through the gauntlet before us. It was like, try to get away for two or three days every few months. It's a two-day view, you know? Look at each other in the eye. And we have...

To your point of the actual time of being just me and my wife in the house without the kids, I can see how that can work. And there's some stuff I actually, I think there'll be some, you know, sounds exactly, there'll be some gains in the happiness of my life due to the freedom we will have. I looked at my wife and went, oh my God, I remember you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're fucking super cool. Like the idea that we might on a Tuesday night

not have to do volleyball dad and get the snacks, you know, and then prepare my daughter for the audition that's coming up. And then just like, we might just order Thai food and laugh. Not in the Godfather one or two. We might watch the Godfather three because we have all the time in the world. You might get crazy. You might, you know, you might want some Sofia Coppola love scenes. You might be down. Fascinating.

Because I only do things now that are wildly efficient and deeply important. And the concept that I would have time to do whimsical, unimportant, stupid shit is so deeply exciting to me. You're going to get it. You're getting it. It's coming.

What if I start crying on your podcast right now? I'm telling you, I'm the canary in the coal mine. It's going to be great. It's so much fun. And you'll have time for a hobby if you want one.

I do want one. And that's been revolutionary. It's yours. I have, I have too many of them. Hmm. I have golf. Yeah. Which is so what it does to my mind. Yeah. Because I, all I can think about is golf. That's all you, when you're playing golf, that's all you think about. And it's a walk, it's cardio, it's nature. Yeah.

That's how I feel when I'm hiking. Unless I'm paying attention to where I am stepping, I might fall over. So that unilateral demanded focus of me is a form of meditation that's possible for a type A multitasker such as myself. I need to force myself into a position where danger and survival are at play unless I'm totally focused. I had a friend of mine who's like, I have to ride my motorcycle 90 miles an hour on a windy road in order to meditate because I need to be focused or else I'll die, you know?

So I get that. Yeah. It's surfing, skiing, you know, anything. These are not bad hobbies. These are wonderful hobbies. They're great hobbies. And I always need to be outside. I will be outside every minute of every day. If I have a day off on a weekend, I'm outside the entire time from morning to night.

I'm sitting outside. If I'm watching the football game, I'm watching it on outside TV. If I'm having a cigar late at night, it's at a fire pit. I'm walking the dogs on the beach. I don't want to be indoors ever unless I have to. You've always been like that or is it something you recognize? I've always been like that. I've always been like that. I have to have sunlight on my face. Have you gotten into, what do they call it now?

Sungazing? No. I was told not to look at the sun. As was I, but apparently the sun as it sets, like in that five minutes, 10 minutes even, as it sets and rises, we're meant to stare at it.

Well, that's interesting because I coincidentally do a lot of that. I do that when I am hiking and backpacking because inevitably you always wake up early. And I didn't know you live in Santa Barbara. We have a little house in Oxnard. So I spend a lot of time out there. And every time I'm out there,

or the sunset, no matter what. It's like, no matter what we're doing, boom, break for the sun and come out. So yeah. Steer it. Go out there 10 minutes early and just, just let it fry your eyeballs out.

The beach community, I haven't had a lot of mentors in my life. I don't know if you have. But the older Southern California male who lives in the beach community has had a lot to teach me. It's been really great. Isn't it a great archetype? I want to play that archetype. I've been looking for that part. Listen, you keep staying outside. You leather yourself up, baby. I'll come grab you in 10 years. We'll do that show together. It'll be great. Yeah, let's do Lifeguard.

Remember that movie? Do I remember Lifeguard? I want to see you in those shorts, Rob. Dude, let's go. How's your mustache growth potential? Let's talk. It's Sam Elliott worthy. Well, I think we... That alone is a billboard. My phone's blown up. I think we just sold the show. So, I think we're good. All right. I do want to figure out something to do with you. We would have fun. I would love that. I think that...

My independent TV model starts to work out. Then we can go out and do whatever the hell we want. Your son's a big family affair. The iconic Southern California...

Aging lifeguard. That's great. Let's go. The action sequence alone of you running to the beach, ideally at some point in your early to mid-70s, and it taking about three minutes for you to get into the water. Very exciting. That's really funny. Trying to get up into the lifeguard huts. Yep. 100%. Just aching.

We'll get you a little electric ladder and lift you right up. It'll be good. So good. Well, listen, so I'm psyched about Penelope. Crime's the Paranormal. That's on Hulu. Penelope's on Netflix. Crime's the Paranormal is on Hulu. Go get them, brother. I'm excited for you. Really great to talk. And I really appreciate...

I love talking to somebody who's about 10 years downstream for me and has life experience to offer and gives it. I appreciate it. No, thank you. This is a blast. All right. Cheers, my friend. Good luck, brother. Good luck with it. Thank you so much. I want your model to work out in the best way. Oh, God. All right. We'll come back soon, either in victory or doom. Man, I am doffing my hat. If I wore a hat, I'd be tipping it.

to what he is attempting to do with putting his own money behind Penelope. I think we all need to watch that show just to support him for being so ambitious and trying to give us some weird, interesting stuff on TV. That was really fun. Hey, next week, as usual, show up, download the rest of the shows, the episodes, like us,

you know, on Apple and do all the things that you can do to keep this little engine chugging along. And I will see you next week on Literally.

You've been listening to Literally with Rob Lowe, produced by me, Sean Doherty, with help from associate producer Sarah Begar and research by Alyssa Growl. Engineering and mixing by Joanna Samuel. Our executive producers are Rob Lowe for Low Profile, Nick Liao, Adam Sachs, and Jeff Ross for Team Coco, and Colin Anderson for Stitcher. Booking by Deirdre Dodd. Music by Devin Bryant. Sports and culture by Devin Bryant.

Special thanks to Hidden City Studios. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time on Literally.

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