Steven Soderbergh: Mike Lane's All that Jazz
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That's right. Discover automatically doubles the cash back earned on your credit card at the end of your first year with Cash Back Match. Now that's a real crowd pleaser. Everyone knows how it ends. Double the cash back. See terms at discover.com slash credit card. Stephen, it's so good to see you again. How are you? I'm so happy to see you. It's been way too long. Way, way too long. Way too long. ♪

Hey everybody, welcome to Literally with me, Robert Q. Lowe. I like to give myself a middle initial to make myself sound more important and smart. Steven Soderbergh today. I've been blessed to work with a lot of directors. He might be at the top. All of his movies from...

you know, the oceans movies to sexualize and videotape to, uh, traffic. She won the Academy award for best director and on and on and on. He's directed theater. He truly is an auteur. He operates the camera. He edits the movie. Um, we work together on behind the candelabra and he truly crackles with intelligence and,

And vision, an inspiring, inspiring good dude. So I'm psyched that he stopped by today.

The last time I saw you, you were crawling over another table to go get a wonderfully well-deserved award for Behind the Candelabra. I'm craving when it comes to that. I saw you throwing people out of the way just to get up there and get your award. It was unbelievable. Who knows when I'm going to get that chance again. Well, it's really funny. I was looking at some of my research.

And you have a great quote, which is if you're bored getting into the location scout van, maybe you should let somebody else get into the location scout van. That was my favorite thing. I so related to that. It's weird. Scouting is such a crucial part of the process, and it makes me crazy. Well...

It's the best job in the world. And for those of you who haven't had the pleasure to work on a Steven Soderbergh movie, my favorite thing about working with you is when you're operating the camera and someone makes you laugh, you can literally look up and see your head bobbing.

over the eyepiece, and that was super satisfying. Well, and there was a lot of that on Candelabra. The whole thing was fun. And how many days did you shoot it in? Something really extraordinary. It was 35, which is, I think, a good number. It was enough for us. Tons of locations, though, and big production numbers and extras. It's not a small movie. No. I mean, there are two crew members

If I don't have the absolute best people in these two positions, I can't make anything good. One of them is the location manager and the other is the dolly grip. If I don't have the world's best dolly grip, I can't get the shots. So those people are crucial. It's really, really true. And you know, one of the great things about the business today is

There's so much opportunity. There's so much work. There's so many platforms. There's so much content. Unfortunately, it's very hard to get the best people because there's so much work. You're going to love this. I literally was on a movie in Canada. And Canada really struggles with crews. And we kept having problems with the dolly grip. Turns out when he came in for the interview, he had worked with a dolly loading trucks.

That was the dolly. No, and this is a skill. If people could watch the dance that a dolly grip does with a dolly in a complex multiple destination master shot,

this 350 pound device that they're pushing, turning, driving, you know, making the camera rise and fall. You have to be listening for the cues and then looking at the marks on the floor. And if you miss it, not only is the camera in the wrong place, but it's also out of focus. Yeah. And...

I remember my first day on working with Coppola. We had a, we had seven people and a two page master walking through a backyard in the outsiders. Right. And, and track laid everywhere. The track was for whatever reason, I remember it was laid up at the height of my knee and the actors had to step over like goose step over it, but, but look like they weren't doing it. It was, it was, uh, it was mental. Um,

I just watched Kimmy last night. It's your new movie. It's super fabulous. And I mean this in the best way because I love creepy, like ominous movies, like super uncomfortable, what's going to happen. And that certainly checked in.

Every box and I was I have to say I was thinking this is great for Steven They shot in one apartment and one office building. He must have loved it. Yeah. Well, that's the That's the good part and the bad part Because you have to find ways to keep that visually Interested without going crazy if you go too crazy then people tap out but

It's a kind of movie that I like too as a viewer. I love thrillers. And this was a really nice blend of Rear Window, The Conversation, and Panic Room. And so David Kapp, who actually wrote Panic Room, wrote this script and

It happened very quickly. He wrote it quickly. We turned it around and started right away, which, you know, I like being efficient. David, I had the pleasure to work with him on Bad Influence. That's right. That's right. With Jimmy. Well, you know, we have a little tenuous connection because... So I did a movie, Bad Influence, in the early 90s. David Koepp had written...

Apartment Zero, which was little seen but much beloved. That was the same year at Sundance that we were there with Sex Lies. That's how I got to know David. Well, and how we cast Jimmy Spader was I saw a very early cut before you guys went to Cannes.

with Sex Lies. Right. And it was, you know, Sex Lies, I, it's funny, I recently saw it again. Oh, God. No, no, it's even, actually, it's even better, I think. It doesn't seem like, it doesn't seem like quaint, like a Jane Austen book or something. No.

No, I know what you mean. And it does not. It seems for me, and I loved it when it came out and we cast James Spader right out of it. Sex, Lies and Videotape now is it's because the writing of it. I mean, this the speeches, the conversations. I was quoting it the next day to people. Oh, how great for them. Yeah.

Please stop. But it was that was fantastic. And I and then I was in Cannes for the big screening. Yes, you were right behind us. It was the first time I'd ever been to Cannes and the first time I'd seen the big standing ovations that they give. It was great. That's that's a nice room to see a movie, isn't it? I also I was too young to appreciate Cannes.

But I also think it doesn't get enough credit for having the world's greatest red carpet. And I have a theory about why the red carpet in Cannes is so great. Oh, well. And I know you've been waiting for years to hear this treatise. A lot of people have. How long is it? It's the carpet or my treatise? Your treatise. It's not that long. First of all, they send one celebrity or person out at a time.

So you're not in a line with somebody from, you know, whatever. And so you own the red carpet. It's double width. So every picture that comes out of it has nothing but red in the background. There are stairs at the end of it. So you get to rise up the stairs. And then the women get the famous over-the-shoulder turn at the top of the stairs. There are no interviews. Right.

So people aren't stopping you and they play music. There you go. It's pretty cool. You know, listen, the French have style. What do you say? That's true. Well, I think you're right. And I'm glad you broke it down. The greatest red carpet entrance in the history of entrances. Because I'm a big, I love to watch anthropologically how people behave. Right. And pit on the red carpet in Cannes.

was a masterpiece. So it's Terrence Malick. It's Tree of Life, which is like, if you're ever going to go see a movie there, you want to see the premiere of Tree of Life, to me. Like, I can't think of a better movie to see, right? And, you know, a true auteur and big movie star. Anyway, Pitt comes down the red carpet, does his thing. He's great. Gets up to the top of the stairs,

Stops, waits 1,000 to 1,000, slowly turns, gazes off into the far distance. And who is at the beginning of the red carpet but Angelina Jolie. And slowly she walks to him.

And they, she rises to the stairs, takes his hand. They both turn over their shoulders and enter. And I thought, that's fucking movie star shit right there. I just witnessed. Where were you? I had, I was at the top of the stairs. I had already come down and, and I was in, and this sounds like the worst name droppy story ever, but it makes me laugh. But I like Mick Jagger was standing next to me. He goes, it's quite lovely, isn't she? Right. Right.

I was like, Mick, stay away. When you were making Sex Lies, how did you find that amazing cast? Well, I had a terrific casting director, Deborah Aquila. Oh, she's great. Yeah. We got the right people at the right time. If any one of them aren't as good as one of the others, it doesn't work. Like they all have to be different.

operating at the same level and in the same film. That's the part I enjoy is watching the cast kind of fill out roles like that. It's funny you say that they're in the same film because that is the thing with ensembles is everybody has to be playing, you know, same tempo, same song. And I vividly remember coming in on Candelabra and

had been a fan of the project knowing you guys were making it going, oh my God, I am so there for this. You fucking kidding me? Michael Douglas is Liberace. I'm like, I'm waiting in line now. And, but you don't know, like, really like, I remember calling you going, hey, I have an idea with the makeup and hair and wardrobe, but it's kind of a big swing. Are you, are you down? And you're like, yeah. But, and it's, it was a big swing, but you just don't know if that's going to be in the same movie. No. And what you realize is, is,

And this extends not only to the cast, but the crew, the producers, the studio. Like everybody's making their own movie in their head. And there are times when you feel like you're all in sync. And then there are times when you have an encounter that makes you realize, oh, they're making a different movie than I am.

And you have that conversation. It's the best job in the world because it involves everything. It involves people. It involves time. It involves money. Weather is a factor. I enjoy it because of the problem-solving aspect, but also...

I think proficiency is compelling and you're surrounded by people who are really, really good at what they do. And that's exciting. You have a great team always. Um, you know, every director has, has every director sets feel different and in, in theory are emblematic of who they are. And I, again, I was super impressed with, um,

everybody's happy on your set, but, and I don't mean but in a pejorative, it's not a chatty, talky, people are like focused. My friend Max Weinberg plays drums for Bruce Springsteen and he just watches Bruce like a hawk. All he does is watches every move of Bruce. That's his job. And I felt like everybody on your set was very much the same. They were like, let's go, let's be ready. What's happening? What's next?

in maybe the most focused I've ever been on. And I think it's obviously because, like you say, it's the proficiency, but also you guys move fast and that's great. You gotta be focused if we're gonna move fast. - Well, putting a band together is a lifelong process. When I work with people that I feel really are making the most of their time,

the same movie in the same way, then I'm very loyal to those people and want to keep them around. So as you said, focusing on what's really crucial here, which is the thing that we're making. And so it's not about me, it's about the thing. And so that's why when I hear stories of

It's not only disheartening just because you don't like to hear about things like that, but it's also, it's inefficient.

If people are thinking about some asshole instead of the thing that we're all working on, that's a problem. You're not going to get the best work out of that person. They're distracted. So it's actually creating a set with a sort of calm, friendly atmosphere is the most efficient way to run a set.

Um, for also the thing I always love about you. And I remember being a young actor and hearing about, like, I think I'd worked with Peter Bogdanovich at the time. And, and this is very early on. And they were like, well, he, you know, he cuts in his head and I'm a young actor and he cuts in his head. What does that even mean? And of course, now you get more experience. Of course, you're cutting your head. You better be cutting your head or how can you ever make a schedule? But you take that to a, to a new level. You truly do. I'll never forget.

doing a scene where i got to knock on the door and michael douglas answers his liberace uh the way the camera was set up you did me for me first my side and we had to hug and enter this this thing we do my side and you go we're moving on you never covered michael never covered him at all i could not but first of all i couldn't believe it for like a bunch of things i was like he's michael douglas is the star of the movie not getting coverage

You're moving on. But you knew what you wanted in your head was my stupid face in the door. Michael, go and come in and you're done. You're off. Oh, absolutely. Well, nothing takes up more time than unnecessary coverage. I grew up admiring filmmakers who made choices on the set when they saw how a scene was blocked.

It's this shot, this shot, this shot, this shot, you know where the cut points are and you go to work. But, you know, to me, especially for an actor to have some sense while you're rolling that this probably isn't going to get used. That can't be a good feeling.

I did the scene where I take Michael's plastic surgery thing off and there's that line that everybody likes about, will my eyes ever be able to close? And I go, well, not really, but at least you'll be able to see how happy people are when they see you or whatever. I had been and worked with you enough at that point to know you had your dolly, your dolly man doing his number. And I thought, I don't think there's going to be another shot in this scene. Yeah.

And I was like, you know, so you got it. You want to get your stuff out while you're on camera. It was I had so much fun on that. Yeah.

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I ran into Pitt at some charity thing right after Oceans came out. And I was like, you're so good at it. And he's like, oh, thank you. Thank you. And then this is right after it came out. Like, you're so good at it. I love the way you were like always eating on something and the color drained from his face. Oh, did you?

You notice that? Maybe I did it. Maybe I did it too much. And now and now it's become a known factoid. And by the way, he eats all he does in money policy. He eats everything. It's not nailed down. Yeah, look, he he he pitched that to me or it it became clear that's what he wanted to do.

And I was totally up for it. What I was really stunned by was the first time we were going to do it. He goes, you know, I've been thinking about this and I feel like I should be eating that Rusty eats all the time. I go, that's fun. What do you want today? And he goes, shrimp. And I said, are you sure? He's like, yeah. And he ate a lot of shrimp. By the way, but as an actor, I know why he wants shrimp. He wants shrimp because it's protein, no carbs. And he's Brad Pitt. That's true.

But that wouldn't have been the way I would have gone. What would you have eaten all day? Pizza.

Yes. God, pizza is just such a good idea. It's just such a good idea. Whoever invented pizza should have a plaque. Yeah. Tell me the difference between directing on stage and directing a movie or TV show. I feel like, and I have done some directing, but I couldn't direct on stage for the life of me. The single biggest challenge I thought about constantly, how do I create a close-up?

How do I, at key moments, get them to look in one place at one person or thing? The way you can cut to a close-up in a film. Was there a universal solve to it or was it situational? It was partially solved.

I decided very early on that the staging in the space would be very theatrical and not real, not representational, that I would change your sense of where you were with light, color, and very, very minimal props. And so that enabled me organically when I wanted to have one person on stage

that you could see at all with a certain kind of light, you know, that it felt...

integrated to the whole piece. Did that change the acting style? The fact that the production was theatrical, was the acting adjusted for that or no? Well, I think generally speaking, you've got to make some adjustments to your performance. If you're in a theater where people...

80 feet away are supposed to hear you. You know what I mean? And your face is small. What the actors had to do to work in that space was different than what I would have asked them to do if we were shooting on film, certainly. But they were very...

skilled at making that recalibration. What's the number one thing you look for in an actor or a performance, if there is such a thing? And what is the number one thing that as you watch maybe other people's work or movies or whatever, where you go, oh my God, no. Fearlessness is what you want. You want someone...

And I don't mean reckless. I mean, fearlessness in the sense that they're not protecting anything. They're not protecting any idea that people may have about them in the real world as actors. They don't care how they look in terms of if it's appropriate for the character that they, quote, not look good. It's never an issue or a discussion. They're just...

Their goal is to, when you're rolling, just be that person, be that character. That's what you wish for and you want to create an environment in which that seems to be the natural place to go. And what is the thing, if there is, that you're super on the lookout for?

Oh, when I feel there's a lack of rules, that the filmmaker never sort of sat down and thought in mostly in visual terms, what are the sort of visual, what's the visual grammar of this specific film? What are the rules? What are the rules of movement? What are the cutting patterns? What lenses are we using? You know, is it a sort of

object is the film supposed to have some sense of an objective visual style or is it something that's more subjective where you can put the camera anywhere you can think of um you know so when I see something where it's clear like nobody talked like that while they were preparing this or shooting it um that makes me a little nuts because I think that's a very basic part of the job

You're very technically oriented as well. In fact, basically, the RED camera is named after you, is it not? No, it's not. I feel like... Where are all these stories coming from? Because...

I felt like, wait, aren't you an early red person? Oh, yeah, very much. Very much. Okay, well, why wouldn't they name a camera? Well, they should name a camera. It was already named that before I even knew it was a thing. So, no, it was a very exciting time because I felt I was...

Nearby the birth of a piece of technology that was going to change the industry. And by the way, not everybody felt that way. I mean, I remember people being so...

Like, oh my God, well, you know, I remember the big thing was you can't do night exteriors with it. People are like, they haven't figured out the tech, like early, in the early, early, early days. But you were all in immediately. Yeah. For somebody who likes to work the way I like to work, it was, it was a godsend. So, um...

You don't miss film at all. No. I mean, it's it's I would certainly never deny that as a capture medium, there are aspects of it that are unique. But I would also argue in terms of presentation, there's nothing that looks better to my eye than a film.

4K laser HDR screen. Like, that shit's crazy. Mm-hmm. Right? You know, and film weave and...

dirt and splices are not, that's not a natural thing. Like when the negative is running through the camera, none of that exists. So to me, a physical film print has always been a problem because it's so easily damaged and it is unstable in a way that you can't avoid because the projector vibrates. So

High-end digital projection to me is miraculous. You gave a famous speech about the future of movies and all that, and we all have our opinions about it, but what's the latest, what is your latest, because even since that speech, there's been a lot, we've had the pandemic, we've had, you know, big movies come out and not do well, big movies come out and do well. And, you know, your great quote was about, I don't think that, um,

At home, movie watching is going to hurt the movie business any more than takeout hurt the restaurant business, which was, I think, a great quote. Well, I think the trends that I was trying to identify are still with us and are kind of increasing, partially because of what we've been through the last couple of years, but it was already increasing.

continuing in that direction of sort of fantasy spectacle on one side and, you know, art house Oscar bait on the other side. And very, very little in between the kind of mid-range movies for grownups that I built my career on. So, you know, those have moved over to the platforms. You know, Kimmy is a perfect example. This is a

mid-range budgeted movie for for adults it is in and what I realize is like I just watched um being the Ricardos Aaron Sorkin's movie and his you know there but in a reason what like what made me want to be in movies was watching human beings and actors like and deal with conflict that's really super small and seems huge and

Like that whole movie without a spoiler alert hinges on the fact that he's been out and about and womanizing and he finally comes home at the end and says, you know, in the famous Ricky Ricardo, honey, I'm home. And it's tiny. Right. And it's huge at the same time. But it's not somebody on a dragon thing.

It's not a volcano exploding. It's none of that stuff. And I feel like the movie business has kind of left us because I know you and I have the same taste and we're inspired by the same things. That's why we got into this. Well, yeah. Two people in a room is how I started. Literally. And it's still something that I return to over and over and over again. I think two people in a room is one of the most dynamic things

and tense situations that you can come up with. Everything that's ever happened in the world that's had an impact on us began at some point with two people in a room. So I love that stuff. Just a little list of stuff that I loved about Kimmy. I literally thought you actually put noise-canceling headphones on my head watching the movie.

when the sound drops out like that. And that's, is that literally just having a track with nothing on it with no room tone? All zeros. Yeah. Just that set? Yeah. It was, that was, that was a, for an early period, that was a controversial choice. Really? Amongst the creative brain trust. There were some people within the brain trust who did not like that.

But I held my ground, and one of those people later recanted. I like that I went right to the controversy and ended up on your side. I like that. Well, look, it's a choice. But that's what I'm saying. Like, why not? Why not do it? You want to see directors make choices. I watched David Fincher's Mindhunter, which I love that series. Yeah. And in the very...

Very first scene of the very first episode of the series where everybody's super cognizant about letting the audience in and all the bullshit, right? All that stuff that doesn't really have anything to do with anything. He has a guy holding a woman hostage and he eventually kills himself.

He never, ever got closer on, and the guy has a full conversation with the cops. That's staying true to Jonathan Groff's point of view. That's Jonathan Groff's experience of that encounter. And given this is the first time we're going to meet him, it's very important to emphasize issues like that of, here I am in a high-stick situation and I'm 150 feet away from this person.

you know, staying true to that makes a better scene. And you know, I don't need to tell you how many other directors would be in close. Oh, sure. Like immediately. They'd have five, five sizes of all of it. So it's so funny. You knew exactly what scene I was talking about. It's, um, but you go, oh, I'm with, I'm a director who makes a choice. The other thing I also love about directors sometimes is why does, and I don't mean to sound like I'm being like a snob here, but when, um,

A waiter or waitress or attendant or somebody behind a desk, do they always need their own coverage? Do they need a close-up? And it's like, oh, like if I just hear the voice going, your order's ready, why not know who that person, why also, where am I? Wait, who said that? Right.

And you've got this beauty close up of somebody has one line. That's my whole point is every cut should matter. Every frame matters. So if you're going to go to that person and give them that kind of emphasis, there should be a reason. Otherwise, otherwise you're right. Like if, if the main character and the story is,

are not focused on that person in that moment, then by emphasizing them, you're actually misdirecting people. Again, in Mindhunter, the director goes to see somebody in the FBI. The director will see you now, the woman says. No coverage. You don't even know where she is in the room. And why would you? It's about...

Yeah, unless there's a point to be made by emphasizing that person in that moment. And you can be doing a bad job by missing that as well. That's right. Zoe Kravitz is great. I didn't even know it was her for a while. And I don't know why. Well, she looks different. Yeah. Right?

um she's oh so the very very opening opening opening opening scene i was like oh yeah i'm fucking down for this um who who is that amazing actor who's being blackmailed what's his name again oh derek delgaudio yeah he's so good in it and his performance in in kimmy is so good and i like again how dry it is no music it's super dry no nothing it just it

It's a vibe. It's like a super hyper-realistic and yet stylistic, I felt. Oh, has to be. Has to be. If you're going to be in that woman's apartment for that long, you better keep things lively. Do you... How much...

This is my favorite stupid question that one gets asked, but I mean it in a different way. How much research did you do? Kimmy is a device for those of you haven't seen it. I'm not giving anything away. Kimmy is sort of like Siri or Alexa. Um,

Did you do any research into how those devices are programmed and monitored? David Koepp, I think, explored that more than I did. By the time he gave me the script, I think he had... The jumping off point was David reading about this Amazon case in which there appeared to be a recording of a murder. And when that became...

known and people tried to get Amazon's assistance in accessing it or using it or something. Amazon, I believe, took the position this is really not our problem.

And so David thought that was, you know, that that was an interesting setup. What if you were one of these voice interpretation analysts that listens for when the device doesn't understand something or get something wrong, you're constantly upgrading the AI so that it gets smarter. They have to, at certain points, they have to have people do this. And so he thought about a character who hears something that she has

That gives her real concern. And as you can imagine, people aren't interested in hearing about this and she just won't let it drop. There's something weirdly satisfying about that early sequence where she's correcting the AI. I don't know why I found that really satisfying. Why was that? You know what I mean?

Yeah, I don't know. I guess you find some sense of accomplishment. As she says, I clear my list. I always clear my list. I guess she's into it. Yeah, I think that's what it is. It comes back to competence, like you were saying. I think we...

we as human beings want to, at the end of the day, want to strive for something and want to feel like we're making a difference and mattering. So when you, when you see competent people on film, you know what else reminded me a little bit of just a smidge. It had a little bit of three days of the condor in it in that, you know, she's sort of just a drone for the, for the bigger company like Redford was. He's like, I read books, that famous thing. Yeah. Which is one of my favorite movies, Condor. No, I think, I think that's true. And I think one of the,

interesting aspects of David's design is how he brings these two people that work for this corporation that should have no reason to ever be connected and in fact are separated by several significant layers end up in some sort of dance. That's part of the fun of the math of the movie, I think.

He's very good at that, David. He's super good. Now, why? Because David directs his own stuff a lot now. How did it come to you? How come David didn't direct it? How did that relationship work out? It may have been because we have always wanted to work together. We've known each other a long time. We tried to work together once before, and we didn't finish it. We were working on a remake project

of a film called The Uninvited. And we had two really, really good, weird, scary acts. And we couldn't agree on the third act. Like what the...

I was resisting the explanation of why these things were happening in this house. And David was taking the absolutely rational position that there has to be some sort of explanation for what's going on. And I kept saying, why? And we let it go. So...

Go back to that. Go back. I want I want that movie. Well, I think it was what we missed was the opportunity to actually do something together. So I David and I were in the same city and we had a drink and he pitched this idea about this young woman. And I said, please, please.

Please write that. I got to ask you about Moneyball. Walk me through that thing because I again, I follow at a distance projects that even if I'm not going to be involved with them that I can't wait to see because frankly, there are fewer and fewer of them as the years go on. I love Moneyball. It's one of my favorite movies.

I would have loved to have known what your version of Moneyball would have been. And just walk me through that whole story because I find it really, really interesting. Well, it was, in retrospect, for me, an interesting moment to analyze why that happened the way it happened. In the 72 hours after my dismissal, essentially, I sat down and just

try to dispassionately walk myself through how we got to this result. And I think there are a combination of reasons that the

the most significant probably being my overestimating my power in that situation, I came onto a project that I did not originate and started driving it very, very fast in a very different direction than the screenplay I signed up for.

I don't think I spent as, I was so clear on what I wanted to do and so excited about what I wanted to do. I was just doing it. And so, um, I, I think my, my lack of, um,

attention to some of the other people involved ended up working against me. And I just wasn't able at the end of the day to convince

the people I needed to convince to trust me and let me do this this way. And frankly, if you're not going to do that, then you should fire me because there's no other move for me. Yeah, you want to make the movie you want to make. Yeah, so that's their money. And so the good news was that my immediate problem was...

this was a Thursday, Friday where it crashed. I had 150 people that thought they were going to work on Monday morning that are now not going to work. So my immediate concern was I got to find something to do so that we can all go back to work. And so Haywire sort of came out of that urge to find something to do.

through haywire i met channing my life turned out to be a lot more interesting having met channing who i never would have met probably or less likely if i'd not been fired off moneyball so you know what i mean i gave myself that period of time to think about it and then i put it in the rearview mirror well as you should and like you said is like i i would argue that

It was not argue. It's clearly you'd rather have magic Mike and everything that that has to offer. You're going to do another one. I know. Yep. I'd rather, I'd rather have that than money than money ball. I just would have loved to have seen your version of it. That that's I, I, because what I had intuited that you were doing a more documentary, like how would, how was your version different than the, the, the, I'm sorry to belabor this, but I just, it's, I'm kind of obsessed. Yeah. It was a very, it was a very, uh,

different approach. We had 27 of the real people playing themselves. Wow. We had a huge cross-section of the team. We had Art Howe. We were...

We were going to try something on a scale that hadn't been tried before. I felt comfortable with it because I'd been leading up to this. I'd been working with non-professional actors and mixing them with actors over the past couple of decades. So I felt this was the right project to really push that idea really hard. So it had a very, yeah, it was just a very different approach. But it led to Magic Mike.

It did. It absolutely did. And the new Magic Mike, Magic Mike's last dance? Yeah. We're prepping now. We start shooting in March. And this all grew out of...

me seeing the live show that Channing and Reed Carlin, the writer, Alison Falk and her choreographic team created, they told me, oh, we're going to do this cabaret show. And to be honest, I was probably a little like, oh, that sounds cool. Like, you know, whatever. And

I mean, they're smart people, but I had no sense of what you could do with it in that context. And then I saw it and I was completely blown away by it. Really? What they did with this show, the dancing is just amazing.

Just ask anybody who's gone to see it because you watch this thing happen every night where people come in and they think they know what they're going to see. And then they can't believe what they got. It's exhilarating. When I saw it, I came out of it immediately and said, we have to make another movie about how Mike Lane created that.

It's all that jazz, but with Mike, you know, building the show that turns out to be the live show that actually exists. It's funny when you... It's exactly... I see the title and I go, I think I know what that's going to be. But then when you describe what it is, I go, oh, fuck, I was not... I would not have been expecting that. And Mike Lane's all that jazz. I'm so there. Yeah, it's going to be fun. That's amazing. And then how...

Do you, when, when you have like, that's a huge franchise. So do you take advantage of the fact that you could ask for more time and money to make it, or do you still use the same sort of discipline you would use making the original?

Well, the first two, the first one was done. Channing and I paid for it, then sold it to Warner and all around the world. Like we were the financiers and then we sold it. The second one, Warner paid for, but nobody got paid up front. Everybody did it for scale, just as they did on the first one against an eventual return.

it eventually did turn a profit so uh yeah that was good yeah for sure this one this one's being made for the platform so it's a very it's a very different financial structure because there's no back end so you have a negotiation in which you're trying you're trying to assess what somebody would be paid normally in a success that's similar to the first two films

Oh, that's hard. It is hard because we're in a world now, in the streaming world, where the ledger of a dollar in and a dollar out doesn't exist anymore. It's not that clean. A subscription service is a lot fuzzier than you make one movie, it costs X, you put it out, it returns Y, and that's your number. Like this is...

This is new territory, which is why everybody's so anxious. Super anxious. It's a great time to be somebody who makes things.

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The other thing is, we haven't talked about the iPhone, the two movies you shot on an iPhone, right? At least. Yep. Yep. So if you're a kid out there and you want to be in movies like I wanted to be and I wanted to make movies in those days, you had to go to USC or UCLA to get your hand on any kind of equipment that would make anything remotely watchable.

There's no excuse for anybody to just be out there making their movie on their phone, right? Do it. No, it's really true. It's a variation of the new Apple ads in that if you have a smartphone, you're in the entertainment business. There's nobody stopping you. That's the good news and the bad news. Yes.

Well, it's like the thing is, just because you like food and like to eat food and know a lot about food doesn't mean you should be a chef. Yeah. Yeah. Look, it's a, it's make films or just be part of, of making films because it's a fascinating job. And, and there, there have been some talent. There's some talents that have emerged because of access to this new technology that have been

really exciting and significant. Generally speaking, if you make 60 movies in a year and let's say five of them are good or considered great, like really, really strong,

If you make 120 movies the next year, you're still going to end up, I believe, in around the five, six number of things that are great. It's not a linear relationship. If you make more stuff, that means you make more good stuff. I don't think that's true. I think it's much more complicated than that. So just because everybody can make a movie, as you're saying, doesn't mean that everybody can make a good movie.

Do you see yourself doing this like Clint till you're 90 plus? I don't know. It's, I don't know. It's not that I would ever tire of, of doing it or be bored by it, but, um,

I wonder if I'll be, yeah, John Huston with the oxygen tank in the wheelchair. I totally understand why you would want to go out that way. But it's...

I don't know three years from now what, where my head will be. I have no idea. I may decide, oh, there's, you know, there are a couple of long-term writing projects I've been working on that, that aren't scripts, uh, that it would be nice to finish. Um, How long will you sit with something like, like you say, okay, you've been writing some, you're working on it, you get busy on something else. You got to focus on that.

And then you come back and there it is. It's sitting on the computer. You're like, oh, fuck that thing again. Is that a battle to start back to it? It is for me. It's obviously not as much of a battle for you. And it is absolutely appropriate and not smoke-blowing to say your two books are terrific. Oh, thank you. The writing is so good. I wanted to ask...

I feel like the best writing, it feels as though someone is speaking to you. You know what I mean? It's sort of, when it has a certain flow, even the experience of them being words that you're reading begins to sort of

fade and you feel like you're listening to somebody tell you something. And I'm curious as to what your process is in terms of getting stuff down and then making sure that it has that sort of cadence that just keeps you pulling through it. Oh, thank you. Well, first of all, I write longhand on legal pads. There's something about...

When I try to do it on a, on a computer, it doesn't feel, it, you know, it doesn't feel the same to me. Um, and so what's really cool is I have both my books long hand, I have them bound and it's kind of my favorite thing. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of cool. It's so old school. Um, they, I got, it's weird for me. It's like you cutting in your head.

I, for whatever reason, the, what comes out is sort of what comes out. There's very little to almost no revisions. Wow. Well, then that's just, that's just...

That's just, you know, good storytelling. You're lucky. But anybody who listens to you who hasn't read these books, I have to tell you, because only the first one had been published when we made Candelabra, but it was such a huge gift for a director to have this.

that kind of understanding of somebody that you're going to work with. To me, it was a goldmine. Debbie Reynolds had written a book also. And so to get a sense of her, you know, before I worked with her and she was such a

Fantastic. She's so good in the movie. It's insane. Oh my God. She was a trip. And, and it was the same thing. It was just a, it was one way for me to connect with her and talk to her because I could ask her questions about things I'd read in the book. And it was just a great way to sort of start to start to communicate. So it was a huge resource for me in addition to just being a great read. Oh, thank you. I, I, um, I fashioned it into a one man show.

Do you combine them? Actually, what it really is, it's morphed into very little from either book is in it. It just gave me the courage and frankly, the sort of cover to do what would be effectively my storytelling talking evening with the book.

But that is completely moved away from that, but it's in the same, it's 100% in the same spirit. Right. And there might be one or two set pieces that I know people like from the book that are, that are there in there. And, and it, you know, it's like you said, getting out on stage for an actor, I think is critical. I think every actor has to be out there without a net at some point in their careers. They just have to. It's as a director, it's such a fascinating thing to watch it.

every night and watch how quickly it becomes what it's going to be that night.

Like almost instantaneously. You know what I mean? You, it just, it, it'll turn or, and you go, Oh, it's going to go this way tonight. When you're like, you're like, Oh, there was no laugh. Oh, no laugh here tonight. Okay. Hmm. That's interesting. And for me, what's not so much on the one man show, but when, when I do other things on stage is trying to get out of judgments about the audience. It makes me sound super petty, but all actors, if they're being honest, will tell you,

It's like that first laugh that's there every single night. And all of a sudden it's not there. You're like, what the fuck? And or maybe you look out in the house isn't as full as you'd like or whatever it is. And and and the discipline and of going, hey, there are people who are never going to be here again. This is their first time seeing it.

And, you know, you come back and meet somebody after their show and you go, God, what a great show. And they go, yeah, really? And like, yeah, they do all the time. Right. It's like you. Well, that's the that that that live that live element just.

can't be controlled. And I remember one night we had a show that didn't go well and we all knew it. And one of the cast members came back and said, well, we sucked, but they started it. Oh my God. Wait. And he wasn't the greatest. Like, like there was something in the room. There was somebody told me there's a, they had, there's a theory about you need five laughers. All you need are five. Interesting. Yeah.

And you're good to go. Not three, not 10, five. And then, and then there's, and, but they have to be out loud laughers. I'm a quiet laugher. I very rarely laugh out loud. I'm, I'm like, this is funny. And I think, and that's not what you want in an audience. You don't want to, you don't want five of me. Yeah. Um, and it's just interesting how, and then the, I did a, a long run in the West end and the Brits don't react at all.

You know, if you go to Broadway, pick any show in Broadway, go right now, there will be a standing ovation at the end of the show every single night of any show. We got 10 standing ovations over 160 shows. Wow. But you know, like, when you get it, it's real. That's true, but that's pretty infrequent. No, they don't do it. I remember going, saying to the guys, like,

Well, for right now, Hugh Jackman is in Music Man on Broadway and you're seeing the clips of him coming out and saying his first line and that fucking place goes batshit. Now, granted, I'm not Hugh Jackman, but I am over in London doing A Few Good Men with Aaron Sorkin and I'm playing Caffey. It's a big part. And, you know, you come on stage. I said, so.

you know, whether the recognition applause will hold for the, they looked at me like I was insane. The recognition applause, they're not fucking applauding for you walking out on stage. And that to me may be like, cause that's the difference is Hugh Jackman does that in music, man in London, they're not applauding for him just showing up. They're not here just showing up this Hugh Jackman. It's a standing ovation. It's so interesting. The culture of audiences. God, is he built for that? Um, I, I,

took my wife to see The Boy from Oz when he did it. Oh, well, that's beyond belief. No, it really is, though. I mean, it's just a...

a sort of freakish gift that he has for that kind of performance. Like he's just built to do it and the joy that he has doing it is just so infectious. Yeah. Like you just cannot, it is the walking definition of irresistible. Like you just, he's just great. I wish he'd do that one again because I never saw it, but I was a big Peter Allen fan.

It was great. I love that. Well, this was great. I don't want to take any more. I could talk to you for a thousand billion hours. Well, tell me quickly. Yes. Tell me about podcasting. What was the decisive moment for you when you were like, I want to get into this? It was that I realized I missed exactly what we're doing, like a long form, with the emphasis on unstructured podcasting.

And we can navigate the current, the conversational currents as they come up. And you certainly don't get that on television anymore. I mean, Dick Cavett and those guys used to do it, whatever in the days. And you could even frankly do it a little bit on, you know, his latest Carson, but now that's way over that, that just isn't around anywhere other than podcasting. Right. So to be able to do that and to do the inside. So that, that's really where, um,

where it started from and it's been way even way more fun and fulfilling than i've ever because i'm a fan i get you on and get to talk movie making you're fucking kidding me get lindsey buckingham on here and talk about you know fucking finger picking on fleetway or it's you know come on man i had ron howard on the other day and we were talking about you know making backdraft and how you working with fire and all i mean it's like

It's it's super fun. And the fact that people are into it, it makes it all the better.

Great. I've always wondered because you're the only person that I've had a chance to ask, like, how how does how does that all work? And does it work? And it sounds like it can. One hundred percent it can. And but that's only in the last two or three years that that happened. And by the way, it's it's only getting bigger and bigger and bigger because there's, you know, a gigantic number. I don't know what it is of people in this country who still don't.

know what a podcast is or where to get one. And as that becomes more mainstream, I think this is a good, hopefully, case of being at the right idea at the right, you know, weirdly like the book. Right. And it's great because I love that. I love podcasting and I love

memoirs. And I want you to write whatever the hell you're clearly writing. Well, it's this, as you can imagine, it's identified as BBOD, which is Big Book of Directing. Oh my God, please! But I've been grinding on this thing. I don't know if this may be like

There's this famous thing in the New Yorker piece called Joe Gould's Secret that Joseph Mitchell wrote about this guy in New York who was claiming he was writing the oral history of New York. And he knew him for 30 years. Turned out, of course, there was no book. So it feels a little bit like that. Oh, no, please. I keep chipping away at it. Please, please, please write that book. Because I have every book on directing anyone's ever written.

I have my favorites. I mean, there's great stuff in The Mammoth. All The Mammoth stuff is fantastic. And the world awaits that. You have to finish that. Yeah. I got to find the time. The only thing I'll say is I wrote everywhere and anywhere. I wrote on planes. I wrote on trains. I wrote on vacations. I wrote outside. I wrote inside. I wrote in cars. I did my best writing on planes.

Yeah, yeah. Things that I've worked on that I have completed. I find planes a really great place to just go into your head. The best. The best. Well, I want to know when this is done. Okay. And let's reunite ourselves on one of your sets someday soon, please. That would be awesome. I serve at your pleasure, sir. Can't wait. Wow.

That's what you look for in a director, folks, what you just listened to. Somebody with vision, somebody who's original, somebody who's fearless, somebody who's smart, understands comedy, and somebody who also lets you be, who lets you give what you have to give. And somebody who's accomplished so much like he has. I mean, the man's won the Academy Award and made hundreds of movies and is still curious and still interested.

And engaged. That was if you enjoy movies, if you enjoy creating, if you want to be in this business, you guys just hit the mother load with Steven Soderbergh. And I hope you loved it as much as I did. I see the light is flashing on the answering machine here in the studio. That is the lowdown line. Hello. You've reached literally in our lowdown line.

where you can get the lowdown on all things about me, Rob Lowe. 323-570-4551. So have at it. Here's the beep.

Hi, Rob Lowe. This is Susan from Libertyville, Illinois. Love, love, love your podcast. I've literally been listening since the very beginning, and it has been a big-time lifesaver during all of COVID. I've also enjoyed your books very much, and I was wondering if you've ever considered doing any fictional writing. Which is great.

with all of your Hollywood history and experiences, that could be quite interesting. And I would read it for sure. Thank you so much, Rob Lowe. Love you. And I'll keep listening. Oh, thank you for your support. I mean, really, without people like you, then this whole thing doesn't happen. And I'm super, super appreciative of your call and your support and the fact that you like my books. I love writing them.

They do take a lot of time. I have thought about writing fiction, and I have a couple ideas floating around, not the least of which is really talking about what Malibu, California was like in the mid-1970s. And that's sort of my great project that I'm just ruminating. And one thing I've learned is an idea will happen when it's time. And

You can force it. You can start it. You can stop it. But as long as you're committed to it and thinking about it, when the time is right, it's going to happen. And I just have sort of confidence in that. I don't know when it'll be. But that feels like the thing I would like to write and probably will at some point. But thank you. Thank you for the call. And thanks for listening. I will see you next week. Don't forget to download the rest of the season. We have great people coming up and we've had great people. So check them all out on Literally With Me, Rob Lowe.

You've been listening to Literally with Rob Lowe, produced and engineered by me, Rob Schulte. Our coordinating producer is Lisa Berm. The podcast is executive produced by Rob Lowe for Low Profile. Jeff Ross, Adam Sachs, and Joanna Solitaroff at Team Coco. And Colin Anderson at Stitcher. Our researcher is Alyssa Grahl. Our talent bookers are Paula Davis, Gina Batista, and Britt Kahn.

And music is by Devin Bryant. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week on Literally with Rob Lowe. This has been a Team Coco production in association with Stitcher.

All set for your flight? Yep. I've got everything I need. Eye mask, neck pillow, T-Mobile, headphones. Wait, T-Mobile? You bet. Free in-flight Wi-Fi. 15% off all Hilton brands. I'll never go anywhere without T-Mobile. Same goes for my water bottle, chewing gum, nail clippers. Okay, I'm going to leave you to it. Find out how you can experience travel better at T-Mobile.com slash travel. ♪

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