Nick Viall on What Reality Taught Him about America & Learning the Difference between Love and Infatuation
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- As a key player on four seasons of the Bachelor franchise, Nick Viall has practically made a-- - Going on The Bachelor, I felt like I kind of emotionally relapsed back into 19-year-old me.

That environment basically says if it feels good, do it. When I got off that show, I was a mess. I was emotionally with for like six weeks and then like thrown to the wolves. - If you were, God forbid, having a crisis, I'm assuming they would get help. - There's a lot of producers playing therapists and the actual therapist was more of a legal requirement.

I don't think the people making that show have any idea what it's like to be a contestant on that show. I don't think they do a good job of preparing people for being thrown into public life. I felt like on an island and I was looking for my support system. I learned a lot about America filming reality TV.

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Hi, I'm Mayim Bialik. I'm Jonathan Cohen. Welcome to our breakdown. This is the place we break down reality TV today. This is the place where we break down how quickly can you know that you are connected with someone and possibly want to date them. Apparently instantaneously. This is also the place where we break down award-winning entertainment podcast host, best-selling author, and personality, Nick Vial.

You may know Nick Vile from his runner-up status on two seasons of The Bachelorette, and then he was The Bachelor. We got to watch him go through...

a dating process and choose someone. He's not with that person. But Nick is going to break down all of the nitty gritty details of how he was chosen and why, why he was nervous to be part of The Bachelor, why he still is nervous that he was part of The Bachelor, and how it really changed his view of himself, love, and how it impacts his current relationship. If you're thinking, Mayim and Jonathan are

How is it that you speak to neuroscientists one week, psychedelic experts, longevity experts, other celebrities? Now, Nick, there is an interesting microcosm that happens on this show. It's also fascinating to think about that.

There are so many people in our society that have now lived very public lives in different ways. And what does that say about us as a culture? And what do they learn from those experiences that they take back into the real world?

We're going to also talk to Nick about spirituality. We're going to talk about his and his wife's recent miscarriage and their decision to be public about it. Also, how he balances others' opinions of him and how he uses that to sort of mold who he is today. In addition, he's the second of 11 children. Unbelievable. He grew up in the Midwest, and we talked to him about how our early childhood experiences can impact who we choose and why.

He's currently the creator and host of The Vile Files, which you may have caught me on a couple months back. Such a pleasure to invite Nick Vile here in person. Nick Vile, welcome to The Breakdown. Break it down. Thanks for having me. You got the cardigan memo, I see.

I just thought about that. I do feel like it makes me feel or look smarter. And I think this is a surreal podcast. Oh, really? I addressed the part. Okay, so I was on your podcast. Yes. And it seems like every human on the planet heard it or saw it. Love to hear that. People love... Is that how you felt? I mean, the comment of mine that was picked up was when I asked if what happens if people get pregnant, like on The Bachelor. Right.

And to me, that's like the most logical thing to ask. And I don't know why people were so surprised that I was like, what if you get pregnant? People are weird. Has there ever been a confirmed potential bachelor baby while in season? Not to my knowledge. As I told Maya when I was a contestant.

I was, it was towards the end of the season. And so, you know, spoilers and things like that. So like, you know, the publications have kind of relationships with the network. So they kind of play ball to not spoil things and things like that. But yeah.

The headline was like, you know, I don't know which Bachelorette it was, but it was like, Bachelorette is pregnant with runner-up's baby. I was the runner-up in that respective season. I remember being like, wow, that would be wild. You know, like, you know, definitely I knew it wasn't true. I like that we're just supposed to put that out of our minds. We're just supposed to be like, they're all dating. But like, that's the first thing. Maybe just me. But you're right. I mean, listen, yeah.

I think it's changed recently because there's been so many eyes. I mean, like, The Bachelor's been around since early 2000s. That's over 20 years. It's crazy. Yeah. It's crazy when you think about just, and we were talking about this, we often, as one of our pet projects on The Vile Files, we recap old episodes of Vanderpump. And so Vanderpump started in 2012, 13 era, 2000.

And when you watch that back and you just think about just then what was allowed, what was talked about, what was politically okay or whatever, you know, and then you think about 2002. No. You know, that's a whole other decade before. I think you were all in Puritan habits. Like nobody was even allowed. Well, almost the opposite in a way. You know, I feel like, I mean, there was an episode of Vanderpump we were watching back and clearly –

everyone in the scene was blackout drunk. I mean, you know, sometimes if you've seen a friend, you're just like, that person is not here. And that was like a thing that happened on TV, you know, where producers and cameramen, you're surrounded by people while watching people who don't even know what they're doing. And somehow that was okay. And that's reality TV. Well, not anymore. Right. I don't think, but that's what it used to be. That's what it used to be.

And it's almost surprising to your point, the fact, I mean, I think, I think what I was about to say, it happens less and less. I think there's less sex in the fantasy suites these days. Cause I think there's more eyes on,

On it. And young people aren't having sex. I've read the statistics. There is that as well. They're just on their phones in there. You know, I think the first 15 years of the Bachelor franchise, you know, people would joke, but it was never like a talking point. Interesting. Like, did you guys have sex or anything like that? And I think people were having sex. Right. And most leads, to my knowledge, I'd say on average, if you were to break down all the previous seasons of how much sex happens during fantasy sweet-sweets, I would say 1.7. Yeah.

You know, like close to two. Got it. You know, and so almost shocking that nothing happened. That's true. I mean, the stats are pretty much in the favor of not having a baby. True. But you're a dad. You understand the only way to not get pregnant is to not have sex. Yeah. Yeah.

Great place to talk about the fact that you're one of 11, speaking of people making babies and having sex. My parents definitely were. Yeah, for sure. Do you come from a family that did not? We were very Catholic. Okay. My parents did not practice any type of contraception or anything like that. So over what span? I'm fascinated by large families. Over what span of years does someone have 11 children? I have an older sister. Okay. She was born...

78, I think. No, January of 79. Okay. She was born in January of 79. And then? And my youngest sibling is 18-ish, 19 maybe. Oh. I know I'm six months closer in age to my father than I am to my youngest sibling. Stop it.

That's a lot of kids. What's your mom like? She's lovely. She's nice. She's very busy. It's a complicated question. And you were number two, so I'm assuming you helped a lot. No. No. No. I mean...

You're supposed to. The older kids are supposed to help. I helped in my own way. No, I mean, I did. And we had chores and things like that. Babysitting-wise, I was not very helpful. Okay. Yeah. It's funny because I have an older sister and then the two children after me were women as well. Oh, I see. So I was very much like a very independent person.

surrounded by sisters. Right. And I was heavily involved in sports and activities and things like that. And I think I was able to finagle my way out of like diapers. Right. And babysitting and things like that. I had changed a diaper with one of my younger siblings. I don't remember who. I was definitely maybe 11 or 12, maybe single digits. And the first diaper I had ever changed since was my daughter's. Wow. You know, because I just kind of avoided it.

But I mowed lawns, you know, and I had chores and things like that. But I definitely was, I got out of the babysitting duties and things like that. But that's a lot of siblings after you. That's nine humans that came into your world. That's intense. It's like a constant baby factory. Yeah, but when you're in it, you don't know any better. Right. Well, that's why I asked what your mom is like, because I can barely handle two.

Yeah, I mean, I don't have two, and it's a lot of work. My mom's always tired, or at least that's, you know, she certainly gave the appearance. I mean, she may not have any nutrients left in her body. She's doing okay. She looks great, you know. Yeah, I mean, I think honestly it kept her young. I don't know. You'd have to ask her, but my parents very much, I will say this, like their whole life,

Was us. Yeah. Taking care of us kids. Yeah. Was your mom a homemaker? She very much was. Yeah. I mean, it came from a very blue collar family. I mean, you know, one of the greatest privileges of my life has been the ability to now take care of my parents. And a couple of years ago, I never knew like what my parents, you know, my mom, my mom stayed at home. My dad worked. I was like a junior in high school. I was a smart ass. And, you know, you join a,

I was starting baseball season and every, like, beginning of the season, you have to kind of write your mom's occupation, your dad's occupation. My mom makes babies or something like that. But, yeah, she wasn't... Her job was to take care of us. And she, you know, I mean, it was the hardest job in the world. She truly... She woke up and...

You know, fed us, did our laundry, you know, made us dinner. Like, she was always doing things for us. And my dad had a very modest job, you know. What was his profession? He worked for a printing company, you know, so in the printing business. And it was a family-owned business. And he was, like, you know, the highest up you can go in a family-owned business when you're not the family. Which is, you know, it's like it was a modest business. But a couple, a few years back, I...

My parents are getting older, and because you have a lot of kids, they still had to work to take care of their family. A lot of their peers or friends, people that were their peers when I was growing up. Empty nesters at that point. For years. They had met so many empty nesters, and they're still in it. I think my youngest sibling recently graduated, and

And there was, like, you know, they kind of did a whole thing where there was a vile baby at North High School for I don't know how many, 30-some years. Right. Maybe longer. But, yeah, I had no idea how much my dad made. You know, you never would ask my dad. But there was a few Christmases back. I was, you know, my parents...

You could just tell it was a hard job on my dad. He wasn't getting any younger, and to think there was just concerns around, like, this child's kind of killing her dad kind of thing. And I finally was just... I felt uncomfortable asking him, but I was like... We were alone, and I said, how much do you make? And then he told me, and I told him to quit. And I was just like, I can...

I can handle that, which was very cool to be able to do. But more than anything, it was more like, I don't know how they did that. You know, I don't know how they took care of us and raised us on that budget. And I had a wonderful childhood. I had a, you know, we didn't take family trips to Disneyland. Right. But we had a beautiful house. It was a middle class house. How many bedrooms are there for 11 kids?

Five. They remodeled. They turned our living room into their master bedroom downstairs when I was very young. But it was a good-sized house with a nice-sized lawn. I mean, I grew up with friends who had smaller houses, you know, but my parents...

You know, they did a lot of that work on their own. My dad's very handy. You know, like some things they couldn't do on their own. But, you know, my mom, they made it work. My mom's Christmas shopping in January, you know, to find a sale. You know, she was always looking at, you know, and I had great Christmases. And, you know, it's really like when I think about, you know, my childhood and what I was given and what they had to work with, I'm always very grateful.

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Breakdown to 64,000. That's breakdown to 64,000. Message and data rates may apply. See terms for details. I'm curious a little bit about how, if at all, you see the way you were raised as people

playing a part in sort of this public role that you ended up having, you know, as sort of everybody's possible boyfriend? Meaning, were there things you learned about relationships or partnership or love from growing up in that kind of home that, I don't know, made you feel like, I know more than other people? Well...

I think, yeah, it probably made me think I knew more. And then I got into the real world and I kind of think I had to get a little bit of a humble pie. What my parents taught me, my parents taught me a lot of great things about love and relationships.

Um, but it was, uh, you know, it was with rose colored glasses, so to speak, you know, um, my parents, you know, like a lot, you know, I'm like now more and more days, there's people who can say their parents are still married and things like that, you know? Uh, and thankfully I can, um, and my, you know, I was, I, I, I grew up in an environment where I never saw my parents argue and I don't know, I'm sure they did, but they, they had 11 kids. I'm sure there was something to argue about. Yeah. Um, but I never saw it, you know? Um, and,

And so my parents taught me that love is hard and you have to work really hard for it. And it's a magical thing if you can have it and that it's worth fighting for, which I think is all true. But I also think that love isn't enough. And I think sometimes you have to, I think when you are taught that you're not taught the value of compatibility, right?

And things like that or, you know, and with incompatibility comes, you know, how do you guys communicate and things like that because love is definitely not enough. And I think I was given this blueprint of what my parents were and I very much tried to replicate that in my 20s very unsuccessfully. And I think that a lot of it was deciding that I could –

you know, muscle my way through these, you know, these problems. But again, different times, right? Like my parents met at, you know, I met my first girlfriend at a time that if it were, you know, 1978, whenever my parents met, we probably would have got married. And I, we would, I guess maybe figure it out or we wouldn't have figured it out. But, um,

We didn't, thankfully, at the time. And I had to learn some tough lessons that I'm glad I've learned and now, you know, very much value the importance of compatibility and communication and things I took for granted in my younger relationships where I was what I like to refer to as kind of a love martyr, you know, where I would just, I would think love is enough and I would stubbornly

fight for things that i mean you know i didn't think looking back was was worth fighting for yeah i don't know if that answers your question i don't know you had me at love martyr yeah that's the title i have a multi-part question so stick with me for a second here have you seen the show unreal i'm familiar with the show you're familiar i have not sat down and watched it probably for the same reason that i don't enjoy the movie cheaper by the dozen um

Were you aware of that show before you thought about applying and getting involved with the franchise? Okay.

What's fascinating to me is like someone in your position who enters a franchise like this in the later years, because there's so much information that you have, right? Like, and I'm not saying that's a good or a bad thing, but to go into something like almost in the early years where you're like, it's so random and like, you don't know what's going to happen, but there's so much data for you to draw on. What is your thought process?

Like, well before you apply, when, like, this is an idea, like, do you have a memory of, like, it striking you? Like, how did the steps lead up to you actually being like, I'm going to take this and I'm going to pursue it? Sure. Well, I didn't apply, so there was that. And I think a lot of, depending on, you know, I think back then I was nominated by my buddy's wife, which I think was fairly typical for the men who got casted on that show. Yeah.

Did you know you were being nominated? She had joked with me. I actually teased her about watching the show. I was at his house, and it was on a Monday night, and that was earlier in the season in which college football was going on. So I went to my buddy's house to watch the game.

She was watching The Bachelor and I was like, "Why are you watching this stupid show?" And she was like, "Shut up. I'm gonna nominate you." 'Cause I had just broken up with my then girlfriend and I kind of laughed it off. And then she told me she did and I thought nothing of it. And then like eight months later, I got some random call. And they were like, "This is ABC, The Bachelor. Are you still interested in coming on the show?" And I remember, "I'm still." And I kind of vaguely remember that my friend's wife had told me that.

At the time, I was actually in San Francisco. I remember when I was working for Salesforce and I was at Dreamforce, their big kind of tech conference. I had never been to L.A. at that point. And they were like, well, we're going to be in Chicago. We'd love to meet you. And so I was more like, sure, I mean, I'll meet you. This sounds interesting. Like, I absolutely no plans of doing it.

Um, I very much enjoyed my job at Salesforce at the time. I very valued it. It was a relatively new job, you know, within a year. And it was a job that I was very grateful to have and felt like at that point I was like, man, I really found my thing. You know, I found a company that there's a lot of upward mobility. And, you know, I, at that point I really worked hard to get into a position to work for a company like Salesforce. So I was like, I'm not fucking with this at all. Um, and so I, I agreed to meet with him in Chicago, um,

They liked me immediately. I could tell that. Then they offered, they were like- What was that meeting like? It was in a hotel conference room. But this is like talk to Nick and see if he's charming? I met with, yeah, kind of. I met with, well, no, first they bring you into a room and you're meeting, and I don't know anything about TV at all at this point. I know nothing, right? And so they bring you into this room and there's this little camera quarter and they hire some like local-

You know, maybe like a college intern or something or works for a news and they do like a test little like confessional. Right. So they're sitting behind a camera. You're sitting there and they just try to talk to you. And I was very awkward and like memorably awkward. And I remember being like, what are we doing here? Like this is like, which is I don't even know how I got on the show. I almost didn't get on the show because like part of why they're doing that is this kind of see, can you do the thing that they do to make a TV show?

And then I got brought into the room where the two, like, head of casting were there. They seemed to—they took a liking to me, I could tell, early on. They invited me to come to L.A., which was the next step, and that's when they kind of bring, I think, like, anywhere from, like, 60 to 100 of their finalists. And then you do, like, psych tests, and you do blood tests, and you do—

STD tests to make sure you're not pregnant not pregnant not crazy not suicidal and you're not gonna give anyone an STD if you happen to know have sex on the fantasy suite and And so yeah at that point I was very much like I'll just go to I I said yes to a free trip to LA At that point I really was like there's gonna they're gonna ask me to do this like because at first they give you a call and you're just like I'm sure I'll do anything and

And I don't know what made me, you know, out of curiosity, I guess. They were very, they were like, we want you on the show. And I'm like, Jesus Christ, like this got real, real fast. Yeah.

Just so I can track the timeline here. The L.A. trip, that's when they do the battery of tests? Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I got a call like in November. I met him in December in Chicago. By in January, I'm flown out to L.A. How many days is that? Because that's a lot of tests. It's a weekend. I would imagine it feels a little bit invasive. You're locked into a hotel for two nights, basically. Oh.

I mean, like, you can leave. I mean, this just sounds like what I do with someone on a first date. Battery of psychological tests. Lock them in a hotel room. Yeah, no, it's a process for sure. And then, you know, you did the test. You got brought into another room with, like, all of the producers. And it's very darkly lit. And they can see you. And you can't really see them. And they ask you a lot of random questions. And you're being recorded. Like, what would they ask?

What's your favorite thing? One question was like, who's the hottest chick you had sex with? You know, I think that was one question. They just, they're just trying to see. Also first date question. They're just trying to see what's your comfort level of opening up and talking about some of this shit on camera. You know, and I was very,

Not playing ball. But and so at that point, I was like, I think they might ask me. And so I started asking people at work that I trusted that like I didn't report to that, but were.

that were higher up than me. Um, and to my surprise, they were like, you absolutely need to fucking do this. Like pushing me into doing this. They're like, we love you here. We'll make it work. You know, Salesforce was definitely back then. But we've always felt like you're way too handsome and charming to be like working behind a computer. You should be on television. I think part of it was, you know, I was in my early thirties at the time. Um,

Midwest, so a lot of people my age were married with kids, and I think it was like, this is so fucking cool. I want to watch you on this show. I were always, it was like, I've used the, I always refer to producers as, like, they're the friends who want you to buy the boat, but I came up with that analogy while being casted for The Bachelor, because even when I was asking my friends, it was a lot of like, you've got to do this, and I was like, I don't think you have my best interest in mind. I think you want to watch me on this show. But

It was a lot of those same conversations. And finally, I got to the point where I think, I don't know, this seems like a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. I think my company will let me do this. They've been incredibly supportive. I have this...

kind of like unbelievable, like golden parachute of I can do this thing and come back to like a job. And they were just incredibly supportive. And so they were all like, can you believe he works here? You know, that's how I said yes to it, because without their blessing, I would not have done it. And they they're like, yeah, you have a spot here no matter what. And they encouraged me to go do it.

So originally you were on, and I had to have Valerie walk me through this. Originally you were on The Bachelorette. That's where it's one lady. Correct. And a lot of men. Yes. I did that twice. You did that twice. You were the runner up to Josh Murray the first time. Correct. Where is Josh today? I don't know. I don't know either. And then you were runner up again and

And then what's that conversation that takes you from you were the runner-up twice to, like, now you're going to do The Bachelor? Well, there was an appearance in between called Bachelor in Paradise. That's true. But it was pivotal. Yeah. So after, I don't know, after I'm left on the altar for the second time, yeah, that was...

Yeah. I mean, you know, not to tell that whole story again, but, you know, it's a very incestual community. It's a very intense experience that we all go through that's unrelatable to anyone else who's done it. And I connected with who ended up being the next bachelorette. And, you know, we struck up a little bit of a...

you know, fling or whatever, or just a connection, if you will, and the show caught wind of that and then gave me an opportunity to come back and yada, yada, yada, and, you know, so... I like the connection and fling are the same thing to you. I have connections with people all the time. Sure. I mean, it was one of those things where, again, like, there was a show element, too, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I don't think I was at that point fully aware of just, like, you know, the effect that show had on my psyche, you know? I was still trying to... You know, when I got done with that first stint, I was so grateful for...

of Salesforce and their willingness to have me come back. As soon as I got back, I went right back to work, which was a terrible idea. Like, you know. Because, you know, everyone has very different experiences, but when you're the runner-up, that's the worst experience you can have, you know? Tell us about it. I mean, you're just like, you already think you're going to

You think you're going to do this crazy thing. I remember that morning and I remember waking up thinking, holy shit, I'm going to get engaged today. And that's crazy because this does not seem smart. And you're like, you're, at least for me, I can't speak for everyone else. Are you drunk? No, but you're like, you're aware of what you're, you know, like you're aware. Like I remember I was in the Dominican Republic. I'll never forget. I was taking a pee, looking out my window and like, you know, the bathroom where it was like a designated place for the toilet and you go in and there's this little, like, like I was in prison looking out. And I just remember thinking,

I think it honestly might just be easier if she just breaks up with me because the idea of going home and like telling...

my community that I, I, I did the thing that I was like, I was telling him no way would happen when people are like, are you going to go fall in love? I'm like, no, like that's dumb. You know, like I was just saying yes to like, I'd never been to Europe and I'm like, I hear they travel, you know? Um, and so I got, you know, you, you do like, but once I got there, I, I, I consciously decided to, well, I'm here, you know, I'm going to embrace whatever this is. Um, yeah. So I, I,

It's a social experiment. It's a beautifully designed social experiment that strips down, you know, your support system, really, and takes your phone away, your community, your access to... It creates an insular community where these things can happen. Yes. And so if you are going to feel something, it's going to be magnified tenfold, a hundredfold, whatever. Mm-hmm.

And so, yeah. And so she ended up ending the relationship. But immediately then I just felt those typical feelings of heartbreak and embarrassment and rejection and things like that. Can you talk a little bit about this? Because it also relates to, I think, why people do love to, like, listen to you and talk to you and Natalie and hear the things that you have to say about human interactions. Can you fall in love?

Like that. Sure. Yeah, absolutely. I have mixed feelings about the feelings I felt. I stated I was in love more than once to more than one person. And when I said it, it felt real. You know? So to me, it was real. That just sounds like every interaction I've ever had with a human. But that's what I'm saying. But I mean, like, is any time we say it, it's real in that moment? But...

Sure, because... What's the test of it, I guess? But, like, isn't love subjective, so to speak? You know, like, the way I love my wife Natalie today after having a child together, after getting married together, after experiencing ups and downs like every relationship has and going through the fire together, whatever you want to call it. Like, our love, or at least I'll speak for myself, my love for her is far deeper than

And what I refer, you know, we have built an emotional connection. And that emotional connection has layers of history and conversation. I think it's less of an emotional connection and more of an emotional infatuation. But those feelings are real. Right. There's less behind it, you know, type of thing. ♪

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MindBalance Breakdown is supported by BetterHelp. Societal views on therapy have evolved dramatically throughout the years, even in just the four and a half years Jonathan and I have been doing this podcast. We've seen a huge reduction in the stigma around talking about mental health struggles, which we are very grateful for. Mental health awareness is growing, but there's still progress to be made. 26% of Americans who participated in a recent survey say they've avoided seeking mental health support due to fear of judgment.

We

We talk a lot about therapy here. I cannot live without it. I choose not to live without it. And it's not just something that helps me. It definitely ripples out. I treat my kids better, hopefully treat the people that I work with and interact with better. And we all could use to behave better and feel better about understanding what's going on for us.

BetterHelp has over 10 years of experience with matching people with the right therapist from a diverse network of more than 30,000 licensed therapists with a wide range of specialties. BetterHelp's fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient, serving over 5 million people worldwide. Easily switch therapists anytime at no extra cost. We're all better with help. Visit betterhelp.com slash break to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash break. What I always say, it's like the people who get engaged on The Bachelor, right?

You know, when you're at the end, you know, whether you're the lead or you're the person who won, you truly felt like you fought for that relationship. Because if you're one of many, you literally competed with at least 24 other people. And it really feels like a fight, you know? Right. And when you're the lead, like in my case, and I imagine I know this from most conversations with the other leads that I've had, you know pretty early who you want to pick.

And when you know, you're honestly, like, I remember knowing who I was going to pick by week three. Wow. You know? And honestly, I knew night one, and then it was kind of like, you know, I don't really know her, but, like, there's one other girl maybe, and then, like, the other girl. What is it? Because I'm also thinking to extrapolate that, you know. It's mostly looks, you know, if you're being real. Like, you trust. Is that chemistry? Sure. You can trust your eyes, right? And you really can't trust anything else. Maybe you can't.

Sure. But you get what I'm saying? Like, obviously there was a physical attraction and you can also tell personality wise pretty quickly. So that's chemistry, I'd say, for being generous. There's definitely chemistry. Right. You know, but you just, and what I'm saying is, and so the, you know, once I- Then you got to go through all those weeks and make all that television. That's what I'm saying. And so once you know, even when you're the person and you're seemingly in control, as soon as I thought, oh, I'm going to pick this person, I felt like I was on the bachelorette again.

Because I was like, well, what if she doesn't like me? What if she leaves? What if the only person I'm interested in even like, you know, because I knew if I get engaged to anyone, it's a huge leap of faith. Didn't matter how I felt. It didn't matter what I knew or didn't know. I'm taking a huge leap of faith, right? And I'm taking a huge leap of faith knowing that's a pretty easy get out of jail card. You just have to break up. There's no lawyers. There's a stain on your resume, so to speak. But once you get past that emotion, you know, it's not that hard to get out of, but it's a leap of faith. And then you...

For other people who've gotten engaged, that's why those engagements are years long because the reality is they're getting to know each other for the first time. And there's this commitment. It's like an arranged marriage in a way. Yeah, you haven't gone through enough time in life. But sometimes you just know. My friend, her parents met and on the second date they're like, we're moving in together and they've been together for a million years. Yeah, but that's luck. Yeah, that's luck.

Like in that scenario that you're describing where all the feelings are heightened and there's cameras and like it's so hard to trust that stuff because it's a manufactured environment. So, yeah, you could feel the connection. But I think the big leap of faith is action.

what happens when all that goes away? And like, what is real life? And like going to the grocery store and they're upset and they don't have a producer to help them. Sure. Yeah. And how do they handle their emotions when they're upset? Yeah. You know, like are your, you don't talk about love language. Like falling in love in the bachelor is a relationship built with withholding love. It's, it's, it's, you spend, if you were to, you know, we, people joke about all the time. I've never done the math, but like you spend minutes, hours with someone. If you're, you know, you're,

The most time you'll ever get with someone is on a one-on-one, and that's maybe six hours you'll have with that person. Surrounded by other people, never any really alone time. If you ever get alone time, it's five hours during the fantasy suite because the date doesn't usually end until like 1 p.m., and they're waking you up at 7 p.m.

So you either can sleep or you can pull an all-nighter and talk, and usually people talk and get like two hours of bad sleep. But that's all your alone time you have. I don't look good after two hours. And so when you're competing with all these people, they're always pulling you away, right? They're pulling you away to...

to talk about it. And so you're fantasizing about this love and this person when you're not with them. And so your relationship when you get to the end is really just in your head. It's not even reality. You've just, it's whatever you decided what her life is with them because you're literally thinking about that person while they're on a date with someone else. And you're romanticizing yesterday because that's a time that you had. And then you spend the next four days thinking about them. Don't you think this is just what dating is like? I was supposed to say the same thing. That's a lot. This is the thing because I think,

- I think that there's something really

I really like the way you, I have never seen an episode of the show. I've never seen The Bachelorette. I've never seen The Bachelor. I haven't seen any of these. But when you talk about it, there's something that clearly is very artificial. It's very manufactured. And I don't mean that in a pejorative sense, but like it's entertainment and there's all these kinds of things. But what you're describing, like I remember what it's like to go to a bar full of people, right? And you're wondering like, is that the person? Am I going to meet the person? I'm competing with all these other people for that person. Right.

I pick them. What if they don't pick me? I mean, like all these things. But this is just really interesting to me because I think what you had is like you're showing like a microcosm, right, of what is actually going on in a really polished way. The old showrunner told me that The Bachelor was a show that's loosely structured around how dating was in like the 50s. Interesting. Where women would, like when they were ready for engagement or marriage, would go on a series of...

Yes. You were eligible. And then pick someone and then just get married, you know? But I guess when we kind of agreed that it was luck. It was like who gets the best dowry, isn't it? Yeah, but I'm saying for all the people out there who met someone and said, let's move in tomorrow and get engaged and it was love at first sight. Right.

There's nine other people who said that same thing and didn't, you know? I mean, at least. And the difference is they made it work, you know? And some of it was luck. They ended up being right. Codependency. Yeah, sure. You know, trauma, real, you know, love. Right. You know, it's a lot of different things. But it is a bit of luck. When you're a contestant and you're fighting for the relationship...

How many of the guys are like, I fought so hard, but I just wanted to win. I didn't actually want the prize. Few. Yeah. I think most seasons there's one or two people who develop genuine feelings. And then the vast majority of people who honestly get almost no time with that lead and know pretty quickly he or she's not into me.

And then there's like, you know, the final six, they, you know, depending on their ego or how honest they are with themselves, some of them might be like, yeah, there's nothing here, but I'm along for the ride. Some people might, you know, because they just decide like this person, oh, they're super into me because that's what, you know, you want to date the producer, like they love you, you know? Yeah.

You know, and you'll have to decide how honest you are. But one or two people every season do develop what feels real, like real feelings. And when you're at the end, that's what I mean, you really feel like you fought for it. You really feel like you...

you know, had to, had to fight for this relationship and it feels right and it feels honorable in a way. Is it true that there are kind of therapists or mental health support on these shows? Was that always the case? When I was on, they had a person. Who is that person? It's my understanding they were a doctor of therapy of some kind. I don't know.

Okay.

Nobody used them? Well, you know, I remember asking for them once. You know? And I was like, oh, yeah, we'll see. We'll try. We'll do what we can. They're kind of busy. We're busy. You're busy. So maybe it wasn't like a real thing. Yeah. I mean, like, you know... Like, if you were, God forbid, having a crisis, I'm assuming they would get help. But if you wanted sort of normal mental health support throughout this kind of process, that doesn't seem like it's what it was designed for. Yeah, no. That was more the role of producer playing therapist. Got it. There's a lot of producers playing therapists. Hmm.

And the actual therapist was more of a legal requirement. Got it. Is my understanding. Right. Also, my understanding is that, you know, I think also just a lot has happened over the years and not good things have happened. And there has been some checks and balances implemented. You know, there's drinking rules now and things like that. And I do think some of these shows do have far more robust, like,

Kind of off-boarding or whatever. Screening. Screening or just like checking in post-filming. There's a lot to be desired of what they could do. Because like, yeah, when I got off that show, I was a mess. Why? I mean, yeah, you're just... Because I was emotionally fucked with for like a month or six weeks, you know, and then like thrown to the wolves. And I don't think...

I don't think the people making that show have any idea what it's like to be a contestant on that show. And, and, um, and there is still to this day, I don't think any, I don't think they do a good job of preparing people for being thrown into public life. Um, and how to handle that with social media and, and things to do to,

you know, help your mental health and et cetera, et cetera. It's interesting. You really, it's a really, it's a, it's an on the job training, so to speak that I don't want, I wouldn't recommend anyone do by themselves if they can avoid it. Before getting thrown out there before the public media, what does it look like to sort of be messed with in that way? You know, when you reached out for help, for example, what state were you in? I mean, I, I, it wasn't like help. I was just more like, you know, I'm a long winded guy and I just needed to get things off my chest and,

You know, I honestly just was like, if that person's available to talk to, I'll talk to them. It was, yeah, it was just more, you really are alone, you know? And at that point,

I was developing feelings. I was kind of like, I mean, I was having these unexpected feelings and I was also living with guys that I could tell weren't. And so they were kind of growing up and I was like, I felt like on an island and I was looking for my support system, so to speak, you know, because you don't have one. Did

Was there a culture of guys trying to get in each other's heads at all or was it pretty brotherly? Well, here's what I'll say. I'll never – I've always thought of myself as smart enough. When I worked at Salesforce at the time when I worked, I remember feeling like, wow, I'm just really happy to be here and I'm doing my best to keep up. I've never been called I was smart so many times when I was filming Rally TV. Oh.

I'll just like every day people are just like, oh, you're so smart. What was it?

I was like, "I don't know. I don't think I'm a memoir. I don't think I'm anything." I don't know. I was known as the strategic guy. I don't know. Like, you know, they've casted plenty of smart people on that show, but there's also a variety of people. Well, I'm wondering if it was a euphemism for a deep thinker or, you know, as you said, you were long-winded and... Articulate. Or articulate. And I think there was a handful of guys who I was, you know, I would say things like, "I think this might happen next."

After being there for like two weeks and it was kind of like every week was the same and they were like, really? Why? And I'm like, well, I don't know. But you're so smart. I'm like, I guess. Just reading the tea leaves here. I learned a lot about America filming reality TV, if I'm being honest. I mean, you're from the Midwest. You're from the heartland. So what did you learn? Yeah, I guess. Yeah. But you're still, you don't realize just how, I mean, overall, I think you have to

You know, simplify things. The larger the group you want to connect with, the simpler you have to make your message. Hmm. You know. That's very true. And I never thought about that until I had to care. Hmm. You know, you know, so I do remember learning that.

I'm just, I can't help but think about what we do here and, you know, the amount of people we try and reach. I think about being on Big Bang Theory, right, which reached millions and millions of people. And like, how do you communicate to people? Obviously, it's different in a scripted environment, but I think that's really interesting. Did you see the contestant? That was the documentary that came out in 2023 about Nasubi, who is a

a Japanese actor who was cast in a reality show. You haven't seen this? No. I highly recommend it. It's a documentary about his experience because the director was an artiste of sorts who believed in putting him through tremendous suffering and torture for the amusement of an audience.

And he knew, but he didn't know the whole story. Anyway, I recommend it highly because it is. It's about that interface. What was the overall takeaway? He thought he was okay with something, and it turned out he wasn't. But when you're in it, and when there is so much momentum...

And the stakes are so high and you're getting so much attention, it can be hard to, you know, kind of tell the difference. This is a very, very extreme. He had to sort of perform crazy acts to eat. And so we were basically watching someone. Yeah. It's a fascinating documentary. Anyway, I recommend it highly. It's interesting. Yeah. I do remember also, like, you don't really know what's true. You know, I remember...

I remember, you know, early on, I had an early connection with the person. So it was kind of like I got sucked in pretty early. And as things got to the end, I was self-aware enough to know that I'm a competitive person and that I was in a competitive environment.

And I was self-aware to know that I liked this person. Like I definitely was attracted to her and it definitely, we had a good time, but I had no idea what was driving my feelings more. Was it the environment in my competitive nature or my feelings, you know? And I just, I didn't know. And I had to just decide to just say, fuck it.

and hope that it was more real than fake. And just having that awareness to know, but not still be able to get it to any conclusion because you really-- you can't honestly, while you're in that environment, know how you really feel because the environment itself is so potent and strong, is a fascinating feeling. But at the same time, I am grateful to the experience. And I do think it also was a simulation that

you know, put, gave me some trauma and all that stuff. But like it, there, if you're able to survive it and get through it, you really develop some emotional resiliency that I think has served me well in life. When you got off the show, um, did you have, you know, when, when kind of things settled down, did you have any feeling of like, Oh my gosh, what did I do? How am I actually going to date and find someone? Not really. I don't know. Maybe that's just, I had just enough hubris or whatever. Um,

Yeah, not really. Because you're also like, you know, my experience, I was the villain, you know? So online, I was like, I fucking hate you, you know? But I'd walk into a bar in Chicago and I was like, I'm Michael Jackson, you know? Like, I'm a rock star. Like, I could walk, you know, at the height of it being aired, I could walk into a bar in Chicago and feel the energy of the room shift to me. And just all night long, I'm taking pictures, you know,

People say terrible things about me online, and I'm a rock star at whatever bar I was walking into for an entire year. So yeah, I definitely wasn't worried about meeting people. Yeah, but are you meeting the right kind of people? Sure, I mean, there's that. I mean, I guess what I'm saying is right after, I guess I definitely wasn't, as things died down,

And I kept dating. And this was more like after I was done being the bachelor and I was kind of done with that whole experience. I definitely struggled with knowing the difference, you know, back to bringing it back to when I was younger. In my early 20s, I was this kind of like romantic young man who wanted to emulate my parents' relationship. And I...

and expected to find love and settle down by the time I was 25. So much so that when I turned 25, I had like this quarter life breakdown being like, where am I? You know, like I don't have my BMW that I thought I was going to have or something. And I hate my job and like, oh my God. And, um, and then, and then I got comfortable with being single. Uh, and then I did this stint on The Bachelor, which, um,

I felt like I went through a lot of emotional maturing in my late 20s. And I often find that a lot of adults will have some year in their late 20s, early 30s, and when they say, like, I really knew my, I finally knew who I was at this age. For me, it was like around 28, 29.

And then going on The Bachelor, I felt like I kind of emotionally relapsed back into 19-year-old me, you know, because of the environment. And, you know, that environment basically says if it feels good, do it. You know, follow your feelings. Just go with it. You know, and that's very much us, our younger selves. It's like we meet. You're like, I don't know. I'm feeling something. I think we should probably date. I don't know.

And then when you get older, after you've had some breakups or heartbreak or disappointment, it's almost, yeah, you become a little too cynical. You meet people. You start looking for everything that's wrong with them right away. I'm feeling something. This is going to end in travesty. Yeah, exactly. So that would be the other end of that spectrum. And so in my 30s, I was...

trying to understand my cynicism, like balance my cynicism versus realism. And yeah, I had to figure that out as well. And I think that, you know, negatively affected me because I think at times I, there was a legit time in my life where, like in my, before I met my wife, where I, I constantly was like, I think I need to just pick somebody because it was like,

The only time I remember falling in love is I was either in my early, like I was either young and immature and didn't know myself that well, or I was on The Bachelor in a manufacturing environment. So how else am I going to replicate this feeling of falling in love and really feeling this...

This intangible pole, this whatever it is that people are looking for when they're dating. I was having the darndest time finding that. And I was honestly worried if I was just like if I just need to just close my eyes and pick the nicest person that I kind of get along with. And thankfully that wasn't true. But that was a real concern. Tell us a little bit more about the resilience that you felt like you learned from being on the show and how that's carried over.

Well, I mean, for me in particular, I was someone who felt real hurt and embarrassment and shame. And, you know, I, you know, I didn't have a, you know, I didn't, I was vilified. I mean, it just like wasn't great. It wasn't a great experience. Thankfully, I've always had a bit of a personality of like, I'm kind of comfortable in my own skin. I'm maybe it's a product of having, I've always been independent.

Um, I've had a lot of siblings and I've never really been a tattletale or concerned myself with others. I kind of did my own thing. And so I think that helped innately, but I had to get through that, you know, of that kind of bad experience. And, and I had to find perspective. I had to, you know, I had to have the perspective of, I could go online and feel like everyone hates me, but I could go into a bar and realize that people like me. And I had to

wrestle with that a little bit. And I had to understand that and talk through that and, you know, type of thing. And, you know, I think life is hard, regardless of who you are, or your station life or your privilege or whatever. But I do think there are certain things that regardless of who you are, you can't escape. And disappointment and health concerns, heartbreak, you know, it affects us all. You know, you can't escape

disappointment in life. And sometimes the more privileged you are, the easier it is to be disappointed and the easier it is to be caught off guard. And I think that happens all the time in life. And I think that happened in spades on The Bachelor. And it felt like every day was a new fucking terrible thing that I couldn't expect or wish upon anyone else as happening to me. And

You get through it. You realize it's not as bad as it feels, that it's a temporary feeling. And all these things that I think anyone who's grieving...

any type of trauma or loss or pain has to go through, and that process of healing has to go through those thoughts and feelings, and they have to gain perspective, and you really have to do that to survive on The Bachelor. I think that was something that I was able to do successfully. Did you rely on faith, or did you seek out therapy? Like, was there something that sort of helped you bridge that as you reentered the world?

I kind of lost my religion after going off the patch, to be honest. What do you mean? I kind of just, I stopped going to church. I used to go every Sunday. I was a Eucharistic minister. I was Catholic. I was doing, you know, I grew up around priests and nuns as a young man. I had a good experience despite other people not, which was interesting, especially learning that some of the priests I grew up with

We're not great people, even though I had a very positive experience overall. Sorry, it's been a rough century for the Catholics. You know, it's harder on others. You know, it was just more like I think I just stopped getting what I there was a level of I think I conquered my Catholic guilt, maybe. I don't know the shame of going. Why? You know, I was just getting less out of it. I kind of stopped going. And did you still believe in God?

Sure. I don't know. Because I don't really care if you go to church or don't go to church. Like, I'm more interested in, like, where's your heart? Do you believe in something bigger than you? Do you believe there's a path for you? I believe in something bigger than me. You know? Yeah, but people have, I think, have soiled me on religion in general and just...

I think as a young Catholic person or just someone who's had a front row seat to religion, you see how people weaponize it and use it for their own personal benefit. Right. And I think I just saw a lot of that. And I think I felt like I can get out of what I get out of my religion without...

No, I'm not trying to put you on the defense. I'm just curious. Yeah, and I think, yeah, I don't know. I have kind of complicated feelings when it comes to that. I think there's a, especially if you're someone like me who grew up with a good relationship with religion in general, there's a desire to want to believe. Of course. For sure. You know, I think I have a, you know, the difference between my heart and my brain, you know, type of thing are in conflict. Yeah.

I will say to that end, I don't have a burning desire to figure it out. You know what I'm saying? Like, I haven't been like, well, now that I've questioned my religion or faith, I need to get to the bottom of this. It's kind of like, I hope there is. I believe in something greater than myself. I believe in energy. I really do. I've always, that's always been a constant. You know, when I was younger, I believed it in a more spiritual way.

kind of God-like thing, but you can feel, I think energy is a tangible thing that we treat like an intangible thing often. And when it comes to, you know, I think if I have one bit of advice for people, when it comes to relationships in general, it is centered around your energy. I think we constantly, you know, I'm someone who I used to tell me, you know, I was going through a bit of heartbreak and I remember my dad being like, you gotta stop.

I was just really, for like six months, just really feeling sorry for myself. I remember telling my dad that I have a better chance of levitating. That's a little dramatic. But I believed it when I said it. Yeah.

But you can control your thoughts, right? And not only can you control your thoughts, what you're thinking about is you could be thinking about anything else, you know, and your thoughts take energy and then time. And that is a tangible thing that we are often not mindful of. And I think sometimes we enjoy talking about the things we say we don't enjoy talking about or we wish we could get over. And yet we're talking about it all the time. And I think that's,

Anyways, yeah, I think people should be mindful of their energy. But I think to that end, I've always believed in that. I think there's something tangibly there. And I don't have a burning desire to get any more clarity on that. I very much try to be a good person. And I think our choices matter. And I think whatever happens when I die, I'm prepared to be accountable for my choices. That's a big statement. Yeah.

When your daughter was born, did you feel anything energetic or divine about that moment? Divine? Sure. No. But I felt...

I mean, it felt like a miracle and it certainly felt like surreal. It was more than surreal. Natalie and I, I don't know how it's been for you, but every once in a while we'll be like, can you believe she's our daughter? Yeah. You know, like, it's almost as if I, now as a parent, I understand where the whole like stork thing came. And I don't think it was for children. I think it was for parents. Yeah. Because I think there's this whole like,

Wait, that happened? Like we had sex and then it grew in your body and then that came out and I saw the whole thing. I honestly don't believe that happened. It seems almost just as believable as she like got dropped off. I don't know. Maybe we're the only ones who've had that feeling, but it kind of feels like, huh? Yeah.

It's a weird feeling. It still feels that way. Mine are 16 and 19. And I still get very freaked out by it. Like, wait, that was that person. That was that tiny, helpless, you know, being. It's very exact. Last week, I was just like, where did you come from? Yeah, no, it's weird. It's so weird. Like there was a time where you didn't exist, which is also very strange. But I, you know, divine. I don't know.

You recently had a loss that the two of you talked about on your show. And I wonder, I mean, first of all, you know, for you to share that level of grief, I think with people is in many ways very helpful. It's something a lot of people don't talk about. I wonder if...

Being public feels scary at times like that because everything is out there. Or how have you sort of, I don't know, how have you sort of processed sharing something so enormous on such a large level when it's also a very personal experience? Yeah, I wasn't really unsure. You know, on our show, Natalie and I, we like to sprinkle in stories about our relationship. Yeah.

I'm, I almost feel like hypocritical for saying, but I like to think of as a generally a private person. A lot of what I do is not very private. Um, but you know, I pick my spot so to speak and I definitely don't feel like I owe my entire life to my audience. Um, um, so when, when Natalie, you know, had a miscarriage, um,

Yeah, my main priority was I just need to be there for Natalie. That's all I knew. I knew enough to know that. And, you know, I had good, you know, my mom, I had experienced a couple miscarriages, and so I was old enough to remember those, and that helped. Natalie had mentioned that Natalie really struggled with it, obviously. One thing she really struggled with is the,

There's this weird, for me it was more, I had as many people, a handful of friends and family members who have sadly had an experience. And when I was a whole, that's always like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And then I would go about my day. It was treated differently than if, thankfully I've never had a friend or someone come to me saying I've lost my child. Cool.

Because I don't think you have to be a parent to just not... But I remember after Natalie experienced a miscarriage, immediately feeling bad and disconnected from anyone who's ever told me that's happened to them in the past. And that was my big takeaway. Natalie felt like this fear of losing that connection that I don't know because I don't know what it's going to be like, but...

Natalie felt a connection with River at the moment.

she found out she was pregnant. And I think for dads, it's a little differently different. I will say that like once River was born, I found out that River was born when Natalie like opened, I opened and she hid the pregnancy test in the drawer and I had a terrible, I was like, no one will ever see that video. Um, I was like, huh? You know, I thought we're making a cooking video. Um, and then I was like, oh wait, I'm supposed to have a different reaction. Um,

But I think about that all the time because River's been in my life since that moment. I didn't realize it at the time, but it's like you can kick, you get to play it back in your mind. So Natalie really wanted to,

find a way to memorialize our child and stay connected to that child. And so she, she was her, she came up with the idea of maybe talking about it. And we, at that point we're like, well, let's just do it. We can, we own our, you know, our company, we can do what we want. And it was like, maybe, maybe we'll write a letter that we don't send kind of mentality. You felt good about it. I definitely had some cold feet. The internet, our internet's a prick. Um,

So, yeah. But we put it out there and I think there was, you know, the hope was that was like, yeah, no one talks about this. You know, people just kind of brush over it. People pay their condolences. They move on. Or say, oh, it's common. It happens to so many women. It's like, yeah. It's like, do you want to go to beer later? You know, there's this huge disconnect. And I don't, and again, I've been that person before.

on the other side. And so the hope was to maybe anyone who felt like no one else really gave them the empathy they wished they received, but know that they didn't give the same empathy when they're on the other side to maybe feel a little bit less alone. I think we accomplished that. Although I did very much stay offline that day. But from the people I don't do know who have access to me, it seemed very well received. Yeah.

I wonder if you can talk a little bit about the Internet being such a dick. You know, you've you've been quoted as saying you as a policy don't read comments and you don't engage that way. Is that a soundbite or is that true? Like, is this mostly true? OK, I'm a human being. OK, yeah.

I'm mostly on Twitter, X, whatever you want to call it. Right. Because for whatever reason, I figured out that I can get my Packer sports content. But what I don't find on X is stuff about me that often. And I'm able to disconnect from that. Interesting. And that, I never go on TikTok. No.

in fact that when there was that temporary ban I didn't even have it on my phone because it was you know and then I wasn't even allowed to put it on my phone now I can bring it back on my phone right uh but thankfully I have a team team members who post for me and I'd I'd stay off it as a consumer um

So yeah, I just have certain things that I've figured out work for me and I'm really good at just not being curious and not looking and not doing the thing I used to do. I'd never Google myself. I don't, I used to listen to like, if I would do a podcast, I would listen to it and wonder if I sounded good and yada, yada, reading comments. I just don't do that anymore. It's not for me to decide. I,

You know, I'm really, you know, what other people think of me is really just none of my business. And it's, it, it, I think it handcuffs you creatively. Um, there's just way too many negatives, uh, and then it takes up your energy more than anything, you know? And so I've, I've gotten really good at self-pleasing and, and, and not giving in to the ego of, of having to make, to check my work. And I'm, I'm pretty good. You know, I have my moments, um, and, uh, but I'm pretty good.

I want to ask about, you did this special forces world's toughest test. Yeah.

You did that in 2023. I wonder what it was like to kind of reenter that world. Obviously very different from the second world's toughest test, which is trying to find love. But I wonder if you can talk a little bit about it because it was obviously super intense. Yeah. And you chose a specific time in your life that you did it and you met Jack Osborne, who we've had on here. And I saw that you made friends with Jojo Siwa, which I think is awesome. Yeah.

But talk a little bit about that experience, why you did it and sort of what you got out of it. Yeah. Well, in the three years of its existence, I think six people have completed the course and half of them are from the Bachelor franchise. And I don't think that's a coincidence. Speaking to the emotional resiliency that you develop on The Bachelor. And those three people who have finished were all either finalists or leads, you know, so, yeah.

Yeah, it came out season one. My wife, Natalie, was like, you should do that. And I was like, you would think I'm sexy? And she's like, yeah. And I'm like, all right, well, if I get asked, I'll definitely try to look sexy for you. It was seriously how I became aware of that show. And, you know, I'm 44 years old. We had just found out Natalie was pregnant with River. Mm-hmm.

And yeah, I definitely have always been someone who likes to test myself, see what I'm capable of. I'm at the point of my life. I used to be in athletics and I used to have the ability to test my, you know, test my endurance or strength and resiliency. And, and, and, you know, I'm doing, I'm, I'm not doing that anymore. And so it was a little bit of like, let's see what I got, you know, I'm about to be a dad. And there was kind of a metaphor of, and especially once I got there, um, of, of,

I don't know what life's going to throw at me as a dad. And that whole experience, it's very physically demanding, but it's not a physical test. It's an emotional test. And it's about not quitting. That's all it is. It's about not quitting. It's not about passing the tasks. It's not about anything but not quitting. And all they're trying to do for eight days is torture you, not metaphorically, and see if you quit.

And they feed you less as each day goes by. You get less sleep as each goes by. You're working harder and harder. And the mental tests get increased until there's only few standing. That's unbelievable. But it was definitely something that, while I look back on my bachelor experience as something that I did without any sort of pride, I'm grateful for the experience because everything I'm doing today is

stemming from that. But my Special Forces experience, I'm very proud of. And I think-- and I'm so glad I did it. And it was an experience that I will value for the rest of my life. I hope to God my children never watch me on The Bachelor. And I look forward to the day that they find my Special Forces footage and be like, "You know, Dad did that." You know? So, like, very, very different.

you know, thoughts on those two experiences. That's sweet. And also, can you talk a little bit just about Envy Media, which I think you launched, it was at the beginning of 2024, right? Can you talk about sort of why you do what you do the way you do it? Well, I love what I do and like I've able to, you know, it's a job and I work very hard at, but like, yeah, I mean, I've, I started the Vile Files in 2019. I've grown it every year. I love doing it. And yeah,

I felt like we developed, I guess, a playbook, if you will, using some business acumen about how we build our show and what we do to make it successful. And I had seen other people try to produce other shows and things like that. And as someone who moved to Hollywood or L.A., thinking it would be cool to be Witness 3 on the local news, knowing nothing about

television or TV. I really enjoyed the creative side of things and thought, I think I can do this, you know? And so we, we basically essentially, I wanted to apply my playbook to my show to other shows and see if I could build something. And, and then once we successfully launched Disrespectfully with Kenny Maloney and Data Kathan, I was like, oh, I think we can do this.

you know, and scale it. And then ultimately it became something, well, you know, I had seen other people build without a vision, you know, and it was just more like, let's just do a bunch of shows and we'll say we have 50 shows. And I had seen that fail. And so I wanted to do it with more, you know, I think intentionality is overused, but be more intentional and,

You know, we're, we, our audience is 95% women, 80% millennial women. Um, that's our audience. Um, I'm off. I'm, I'm shocked that that's my audience, but it is my audience and I'm grateful that is my audience. It's a very brother sister relationship, um, that I have with my audience. And yeah, we, you know, we, we,

New media, alternative media is the future. You know what we what you do, what I do. You know, we can sit here, debate all that in terms of its impact on the election and pros and cons to this kind of open market of of things. But I do see a lot of pros and things like that. And I want to create a place for my audience to get as much pop culture and relationship and.

you know, reality TV entertainment and be the place for that. It's awesome. We recommend checking out The Wild Files, but if you're listening to this, you probably already have. And also your book, Don't Text Your Ex Happy Birthday and Other Advice on Love, Sex, and Dating, which came out a couple years ago. Before we let you go, why shouldn't you text your ex happy birthday? It's a great way of making someone else's day about you. I mean, there's no... Think about it. Like, and...

There's always exceptions to every rule. I'm not talking, you know, if you by somehow, by some miracle truly became friends with your ex and years later, you guys. Like you and me. Like I have to text you on every. Absolutely. But in the days, weeks or months that follow a breakup, you know, whether it's their birthday or Christmas or the sweater you left over at your house, it's just an excuse to

to get in contact with someone and check in to see if they miss you or if you miss them or if you still have some sort of pull or connection in your life. And if it's their birthday and you're reaching out to them, you'll probably ruin their day.

And if it's your birthday and you think you want your ex to reach out to you, it'll probably ruin your day. It's just it's never about the thing that you claim it's about. And so, yeah, you should definitely not do it. Good advice. Nick, thank you so much. Really so much fun to get to talk to you. And you're very smart. I really related to a very strange thing that he said. Which was?

That at a certain point he thought maybe he should just close his eyes and just like pick the nicest person who he doesn't mind talking to. Because I think when you get scared, and I did relate because like I come from a traditional home and, you know, most of my cousins were married, you know, in their late teens, early 20s. Like that's just like, you know, like my religious family. It's like very normal to just like already have found someone by the time you're 20. And so...

I totally related to that. At a certain point, it's not about chemistry. It's not about optimizing. Are they nice? Can I sit across from this person and have a meal in peace? I just, I really appreciate his perspective. You know, I think he's very respectful in talking about

in a way that doesn't feel mean or like he's got sour grapes, but he really is like owning his part. He's very present in what he participated in and what he got out of it. And I just really think it's such an interesting, you know, microcosm of what we're all experiencing, which is like trying to find someone, trying to find connection, trying to find our way. It related to the microcosm because when he explained almost reality checking,

trying to gauge what is real, what is not real. Yes, he's in a manufactured environment, but most people are going through that. Oh, did that person say something that is actually going to impact me? And how accurate is the broken telephone that we get between three or four people as they describe something? What action should I take next? And then I have all these feelings. What do I do with them? Even...

You know, again, outside of reality TV. I mean, I just had this image and I remember this mostly from college. You know, I went to UCLA and there were lots of bars. And, you know, if anyone went to a college where there was a college town, there's a bunch of bars. And I just remember what it was like. I mean, Valerie or Olivia, you're welcome to nod your head. Maybe you, Jonathan. Just you know what it's like to be with a group of girls.

And you're all single and you go into the bar and it's like, who's there? Who can I look at? Who can I dance with? Who's going to buy me a drink or who am I going to go up to? And like you've you've been in a bar where you see there's a group of dudes that come in and they're just scanning. Like that's what we do. That when we have a gathering place to do that, that's what we do. And it's like it's that precarious dance of.

you know, am I right for them? Are they right for me? And when I think about, you know, a lot of people listening to this might be maybe married or maybe dating for the second time, right? Like maybe you're divorced and like,

Not much changes. We just want to be accepted. We want to be loved. We want someone attractive to us. We want to have good chemistry. Those things don't really change in all these kind of different environments. So I just kept flashing back to that notion of like, yeah, The Bachelor and The Bachelorette, it's this manufactured dating scenario, but...

When if you turn off all the cameras, that's kind of just like a bar on a Friday night. What about the fact that he knew so early in the process who he was vibing with and who he wasn't? And then you still have to go through the process. I mean, I'm more interested in the fact that like that's how quickly we often know. Yeah, exactly. Like it's about luck, but it is also about you start talking. Is there a vibe? Is there not? Yeah. Remains to be seen with us.

from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have we'll see you next time it's my b r x breakdown she's gonna break it down for you she's got a neuroscience phd or she was and now she's gonna break down it's a breakdown she's gonna break it down