"Insurgent Ecologies: Between Environmental Struggles and Postcapitalist Transformations" (Fernwood Publishing, 2024)
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Today I'll be talking to Gustavo Garcia-Lopez and Yorgos Veligrakis from the Undisciplined Environments Collective, editors of Insurgent Ecologies Between Environmental Struggles and Post-Capitalist Transformations, published in 2024 by Fernwood Publishing.

Dr. Garcia and Dr. Veligrakis, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you for having us, Tim. Hello. Hello, Graham. Thank you. To start off, why don't you tell our listeners a bit about your backgrounds and how you came to work on this book? Yeah. My background originally was in environmental sciences and geography and went into environmental planning and then political ecology as a

In my education, my activism, I was working mostly with communities that are doing self-management of territories and fighting for environmental justice.

mostly from Puerto Rico, from where I'm from. And through my life path, I met different people from this network in political ecology. Then Taito and I started working together in 2012, 2013 in this European Network of Political Ecology. And that's where I met Giorgos, Diego Andreucci, Guadagno da Cotila, Mariem Gonzalez Hidalgo,

Salvatore, Paolo Verrosa, Rita Calvario, many others who are part of this project on discipline environments. That is a political ecology blog and collective also, an editorial collective project.

serves as a space for discussions of political ecology, current issues and research and movements and reflections about organization, vision, strategy. And so that's how we started

A few years ago, we started thinking about this idea of a book that we could gather some of the work that the collective's members are doing, which is engaged work with movements and reflecting on what are the possibilities for transformative, radical change.

broad-based social mobilization and forms of insurgency understood in diverse ways.

And so, and that's how the book Inserting Ecologists came about. We drew mainly from the work of our collective, but also, I mean, our collective and the alliances that we had, that each of us has been developing over the years in this space between academia and activism.

And so we started inviting people and trying to think also thematically and regionally to gather a diversity of voices, particularly emphasizing voices from Global South and the peripheries and the different South within the North and also from people in the front lines engaged directly in movements

or in alliance with movements. Yeah, I'm introducing myself too. I'm Yorbas, Yorgos Vandegrakis. I come from Greece. I live in Greece. And the story is pretty much the same as the one of Gustavo. I was always in between academia, research, and environmental activism.

And I met Gustavo and the other people in this disciplined environments group during my PhD studies. Most of us did, during our PhD studies, we formed actually this network, this disciplined environment network that started actually as a very small, very...

Yeah, a very small blog on issues that have to do with our research. It was called at the very beginning, we thought to call it just Notes from the Field. So to exchange ideas about the different studies we were making together with people, mainly from the global south or also people that

that live in the global north but their peripheries or their livelihoods are more of those of the global south. We can discuss this further in the future. But yeah, we started as just exchanging ideas on how to build on this interplay between academia and research and activism.

It became quite successful in terms of audience, in terms of the discussions we managed to bring up and the scholars we managed to engage and also the communities we managed to engage with our blog within the website that was then transformed into an undisciplined environments collective.

And there came the idea of the book and the story that Gustavo just told you. It's the story of how we got started and then we moved working on this book. All right. So my first question is about the first word in the title, Insurgent. So what is insurgency and why is it important? Yeah, thank you. I think the...

Here we are bringing insurgency. First of all, the word and the title of the book is in conversation with another

classic of political ecology of movements, which is called Liberation Ecology. It's another book by Pete and...edited by Richard Pete and Michael Watts. And in that book, they bring together a collection of essays on movements from different parts, again, mainly from the global South. So we were inspired by that book a lot. And

And we wanted to continue thinking about what it means to

to practice and to achieve liberation and radical change. And so we thought of the word insurgency because it's a word that usually is associated, let's say, with our rebellion and revolutions in the classical sense, but that has also been appropriated by individual movements to talk about

making resistance and re-existence together, so making other ways of life possible in the midst of global capitalism and its devastations. And so it's a way to think about myriad forms of resisting that can also lead to transformations

from the local level, but also with possibilities to build in broad-based alliances and large-scale movements and changes. So this is how we brought the word insurgency. And the word is also inspired by particular experiences, so the Zapatista insurgent territories,

and other discussions. This is one of the sources of inspiration. Maybe Georgios can say more also other perspectives. Yeah, not to say something different, just to add that I think Gustavo gave the whole picture. I just want to focus a bit more on the plurality and the

Although insurgency have this, as also Gustavo mentioned, usually associated only with armed rebellion, we wanted to give it a different meaning or at least to empower its meaning by trying to see the...

the different communities, the different struggles, the different people, the different mobilizations that although are not directly connected to each other, they form something like a common background. They form this insurgency and that's why we thought it is important to use it as an inspiration, as a metaphor and as a

Actually, as a background of our approach to what is going on in the world. So it's on one hand is to see the plurality of different people and different ways of struggling against environmental injustice.

But also, on the other hand, it's a way of seeing the world. It's this multiplicity, these different views. It's also a way of enlarging our vision about what is going on in the world nowadays and if it is built in a fair or unfair way and how, if and how we can work to make transformations. Yeah.

May I add just a few more things? Just another source of inspiration that we have is this idea of insurgent universality, which is from the author Jaffe Wilson. And it's a way of reconciling all these ideas.

the colonial approach of grounded, territorially grounded, micro, everyday forms of resistance and re-existence. And this, let's say, universalist or radical

wide-ranging perspective on a structural approach to revolutionary change. And Wilson suggests that this insertion of universality is, and I quote, "in the spaces of struggle, the moments of revolt, and the experiences of comradeship, in which the universal dimension emerges like a flash of lightning simultaneously,

exposing false universals and transcending closed identities. So as Yorgos was saying, this diversity of voices and experiences really brings, and putting them together in a, let's say, in a cohesive way,

through a book and a conversation also like the ones we are having in different events. It really helps us to bring together that particularistic and the more universalistic perspective. In the introduction, we have several additional references, this idea of insurgent practices.

as a way of both doing and saying that, as Melissa Garcia de la Marca and other of our entitled colleagues puts it, that enacts equality and disrupts the dominant production of space, creating possibilities to generate new meanings and relations. So yeah, just wanted to add those ideas here.

Yeah, thank you. So then I wanted to pick up on Gustavo, you mentioned the Pete and Watts book, Liberation Ecologies, as one of the inspirations. And when I saw that, it took me back to grad school in the early 2000s. I was actually at Clark University where Dick Peete taught, and that book was kind of the political ecology book.

And so then that got me thinking about, you know, how has political ecology as a field changed over the almost three decades between liberation ecologies and now yearbook insurgent ecologies? What kind of things do you see as some of the big developments in the field over that period of time that are reflected in your book?

Then Georgios, do you want to start or? Yeah, I can say just a couple of things very briefly. Thank you for the question. I think it's a very crucial question. And I think I would say a couple of things, some food for thought maybe. The first one is that political ecology has been introduced

to different landscapes, contexts and countries, I may say, or peripheries. So the first thing that has changed over these 20 years is that political ecology as such, as a way of doing research on one hand and trying at least to engage with social mobilization and what is going on,

in the other part of this scheme to see what is going on in the everyday practice of ecology. And I think this is the first part. This is the first very important thing that I think it became more popular, if I may use this term. It became more popular and it has been more

important in different fields all over the world. This is the good part. The second, the bad part, not the bad part, but the, let's say the sad part

I think that is going on is the importance of the climate change and the climate crisis that we are facing right now. So another thing that changed a lot is that whatever we can call the environmental problem has become more urgent than it used to be 20 years ago. And that means it's not that the problem itself as a phenomenon, as a

as a process has changed, but the political discourse, the social discourse and the public discourse on the issues has changed and people, I think, understand. It's easier today to convince people that the solutions that we have followed as a humanity so far to deal with what we call the environmental problem, one of the climate crisis problems,

have been all proved to be 100% wrong. So political ecology is here

as one way of thinking to understand first of all why all this have been wrong and what is to be made different by understanding that the environment is not something that it is outside the society but it is produced and we see the social relations, the powerless relations unfortunately the sex relations and so on so it's not a

a technical issue. It is a social issue and I think this is also something that has changed over the last years. I don't know if you agree, Gustavo, or you have a different point of view.

Yeah, thanks. Yeah, definitely. I agree with what you were saying. This last point is probably reflected more popularly in this phrase, system change, not climate change or the everything or, you know,

So I agree that this is a very new, a newer condition for political ecology today. The widespread acceptance that we need really transformative radical changes and also the urgency of these changes. And as you mentioned, this globalization of political ecology, popularization, diversification also like...

like you were discussing, different regions. And I think I would add just one more thing that we also discussed in the introduction, is really that while liberation ecology was groundbreaking in terms of diverse movements in the global south, and there has been a wide tradition

coming from those roots of engaging with movements. I think we felt like still most of the work in political ecology was focused on criticism and resistance rather than on

movements, let's say, movements, visions and enactment of alternatives or radical changes emerging from the movements themselves and maybe still focus, maybe predominantly still heavily theoretical and more abstract and

lacking maybe some more organic involvement in social struggles. That's why we really wanted to center work based on a grounded engagement with movements in a more organic way.

So this is another difference. I think that political ecology is increasingly open and recognizing the need for this kind of approach that also opens different possibilities for us.

how change can come about. These questions which are not new, like these questions of what needs to be done, perhaps more of a question of how this can be done and by whom are newer questions that are also being raised. Yeah.

We also wanted to, I think, emphasize the importance of thinking about the interconnection between struggles. I think this is still, we felt this is still, there's still insufficient attention to how broad-based alliances and comradeships can come about.

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um, examples and we don't have time to go through each one of them. Uh, so instead I'm going to ask you about some themes that go through the book and then, you know, as you answer, feel free to draw an examples or illustrations from any of the chapters to talk about, uh,

Each of the themes that I want to ask you about. And the first one you had actually started to get into a little bit in the previous answer, which is the fact that all of these authors are writing about movements that they're involved in. They're not just, you know, studying it from the outside and kind of a traditional academic kind of way. So, um,

What's the importance of that involvement from a research methodology point of view? Well, I guess Gustavo can say much more on this, but I want to give just two examples. First of all, as you said, the first thing is that we tried and we are trying with the Disappearing Environments Collective. We hope that

we are succeeding in this is to have this balance between research and activism in terms of not just seeing these processes outside the research and the academia but together in the best possible way.

And I would say, for example, if you see the... We have a section that has to do with climate. The third part of the book has three chapters that have to do with more direct reference to what's going on in the climate crisis struggles and so on. If you read these three chapters, I think...

The important thing that they add is that they make us rethink of concepts and ideas that they seem in a way apolitical and somehow technocratic and they involve all. I would say, for example, the question about transition. We hear everywhere the question about transition, transformation, that we need to deal with environmental problems in an apolitical way. I think the...

These three chapters help us understand that these words, this transition, are also political processes, are also social processes, and therefore they have their own purpose.

within processes and they have their own history, their own ideologies, conflicts, players and so on and so on. For example, they say imagining just transition. We have to see what just transition means. For whom? By whom? Who are the players? Who are the winners in this? Who are the losers? What is going on with the communities? Is it possible that what we call a just transition in the global north to be

a total unjust transition in the global south. I guess you understand what I'm trying to say here. The other part that I would...

I would pay some attention to is the last part about the labor. I'm going to use it for my second example. Again, by seeing these three chapters that deal with the question of labor within the environment, again, it makes the audience rethink about ideas and about concepts that seem

For a long, long time, they seemed that they are antagonistic between each other, that they were in a tension, which is the labor and the environment. If you see by the real examples of strategies that somehow come together, what we call the labor struggles and environmental struggles, that they, of course, have their conflicts and they have some things of discontinuities and so on.

But at the same time, you can see that there are some connections there and there are some, in some cases, it is a common ground. It makes you as a reader rethink of these notions, of these concepts. And I think this is a good, hopefully a good added value of this book.

Can I put just two examples? Gustavo can continue with many more. Thank you, Giorgos. Yeah, I think that these are great examples to see how, I mean, the approach of the book is really to foster these kind of interconnections and to rethinking of concepts and practices.

And so I think the same could be said about... So the book is divided in five sections, in five parts, thematically organized around key concepts that we felt are key concepts for a project on insurgent ecologies, that are key elements of the main radical struggles today for...

for ecological liberation. And so these concepts are sovereignty, land, climate, feminisms, and labor. So Georgios was talking about the section of labor and the section on climate where we can see

experiences and different visions also, but that also have similarities amongst them and that overall, as Jorgos was saying, help us reaching each of these concepts and the practices associated to, let's say, just transitions like Jorgos was saying, or climate justice. What does that mean? What are the strategies also? What are the visions that we need? So, for instance, a chapter by...

climate justice and just transition activists in the US, Julie Zay and Gopal Dayaneni, they

they trace how this framework of just transition came about from the movements, from a radical perspective, and what are the roots of that vision, how is that vision nurtured by specific practices of a diversity of communities in dealing with Black, Latinos, feminist collectives, and others. And so this is a very...

Also inspiring to see how these visions can be built collectively and how is that important.

And the other things that I would highlight is how looking across the sections also helps you see that these sections, of course, and we know that these sections are artificial divisions in a way that we want to also foster the interconnection or articulations as we discuss in the book between movements from

And you see that in practice it is like that. So, for instance, the section on sovereignty has a chapter that is about Puerto Rico's struggles for environmental justice and dictatorship.

and decolonization. It's a chapter that I wrote, but it's also a chapter that is about... It's about sovereignty because it's a struggle against colonialism, but it's also about climate justice, about how to face the climate disasters, how to build solidarities. It's about also connection with the land.

and also the chapter on the Kurdish Freedom Movement, and it's very much about... And the chapter on Palestine struggles are also very much about the land, I would say.

I'm just saying with the one about Ecuador and Bolivia's sovereignty struggles. In that case, the Arabella and Mérida colleagues, they reflect on the tensions between the territorially grounded struggles and national popular ideas about sovereignty. So we see how also different scales matter for thinking about these radical changes.

And then you look across sections. And so we have a section about land and we have a chapter, for instance, that is about workers. So it's also about labor, which is the chapter by Antonella Angelini, Giulio Iocco, and Martina Locascio that is about migrant agricultural workers and food activism in Southern Europe, in Spain and Italy.

where they look at different experiences. In the case of Italy, it's an autonomous cooperative fighting, let's say, for full sovereignty and justice. And in other cases, the organization also, like agricultural workers in Spain and in southern Spain particularly, and how that works.

that can lead to changes for advancing food justice. So I think that in both cases we see these interconnections across topics, that is basically a seed for thinking about making broader alliances. And these alliances are often already being made between movements.

It's also an invitation to think more broadly. And then finally in the section on feminisms, we have a chapter by Delmetania Cruz-Hernandez on humanitarian and territorial feminisms of Babia Ayala, which is based on her work with feminist communities in Chiapas against extractivism.

And it's a chapter that is clearly not just about feminism because it's very much about the connection between bodies and territories and how the violence and the

in the territories and the bodies are intersected, particularly in female bodies, and how also the power of resistance and the re-existences are also based in this interconnection between people and the territory. So these are...

Just one final example maybe is also Tatiana Rovendaña's chapter on the workers' struggle in Colombia and how a struggle that was initially about national energy sovereignty and the petroleum workers fighting for the protection of their national petroleum company

how that gets linked to communitarian struggles for defending their territory against organized violence, but also against the pollution of the oil or the coal, and how then these movements get together and form an alliance for a just transition. And we see now how that is also linked, that the ANA-ROA is actually in the ministry of

of environment now in Colombia and how this has really led to broader political changes. So how from these territorial grounded struggles, making alliances with workers' struggles, unions and with other movements can really lead to broad based changes. Yeah. I think that interconnection is one of the big strengths of this book. I know I'm

particularly interested in the feminist and queer politics angle and you know i saw there was a section about that later in the book that i was looking forward to and i start reading the book and those ideas are right there in the all the other chapters too um so it's really great to see how all of these different movements and the different aspects to them are so interconnected even though each of these movements is also focusing on something

you know, locally specific to the place that they're rooted in. Yes, exactly. Yeah, it's his own.

Yeah, we encourage authors also to think pros thematically and not... We actually organize the sections a bit after the fact. I mean, in conversation, it was an evolving, emergent organization of those themes. So we wanted really for people to talk about their experience without limiting to a specific theme.

Which is often not how these edited volumes are organized. Often you get an invitation to write a chapter on a very specific theme already defined or a section already defined. So I think this actually helped that in practice these thematic divisions are artificial for movements oftentimes. Yeah, definitely.

So then another thing, oh, sorry, Yorgos, did you want to say something?

It is important to understand that it takes time to understand what is going on and not to just come up with a very simple idea or a very simple solution. And the Undisciplined Environment group, because of our website and because of our discussions that we have had,

gathered all these years, it's something that we had in mind, that it takes time to really get in touch with the struggling communities and to really see and understand their own worldview and to understand yourself also as both an activist and a researcher, at the same time to see the impact

the things that you think you are researching in a different way. So I would just put that it takes time and it is important to respect the time it takes to understand what is going on in a very transforming world. Yeah. At New Balance, we believe if you run, you're a runner, however you choose to do it. Because when you're not worried about doing things the right way, you're free to discover your way.

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So then another interesting thing about the book is that you've got a bunch of really interesting art in it. And unfortunately, since this is an audio podcast, I can't show any examples to our listeners. But I was hoping you could talk a bit about why it was important to include some of this art in.

in a book since you don't often see that in an academic political ecology book. Yeah, Gustavo, you go one because they're one that...

Was Hispanic gas to do it? Yeah, it was. I mean, art has always been central to eco-social justice and, let's say, insurgent movements. And there's a whole tradition of activism and how to make art by and for movements and, you know, and...

And so we have been inspired by that. And there's recent work in political ecology that is trying to delve into this more than others. In Latin America, Gabriel Linsky, an Argentinian political ecologist, has co-edited a volume on this, on art and environmental justice. And there's also a project...

that I had for Beatriz Rodríguez Lavajos based on Spain and international project also looking at experiences of art and environmental justice in different places of the world. And so we were inspired by these projects

by these and other experiences and by the art that is beautiful and powerful and art that can speak more than a thousand words oftentimes. And so we also are inspired by conversations from the colonial and other movements that are

inviting us to think and feel together, to see beyond written words and imagine other possible ways of communicating and listening to each other. So these are kind of the roots of this project.

And so we wanted to bring that into conversation here also with some arts. And so we invited three artists. One is the Beehive Design Collective, which was an Oakland-based collective that is no longer active, but that did a lot of beautiful work with communities in the Appalachias and the

and also in Mesoamerica, looking at coal extraction and extractivism in general and the violences and also the resistances. And they work with...

animals, knowing their images. So really honoring their name is really... But the way they build their art is collectively with movements and with communities in the struggles. So they do workshops, they listen, they gather stories, and then they transform that into art collectively. So it's really... And these arts are the ones with the animals revolting against the

against a coal mine and a factory. And we're just looking at what page that art is here. It's towards the end of the book. It's page 276 and 277 to 278 of the book. So the...

So then that's one collective. Then we had B.Y., which is an artist self-defined as a working class artist, independent artist that does a lot of work on eco-socialist imaginaries. He's a

They have a studio called the Earth's Liberation Studio and it's wonderful to check out their page. They have amazing, amazing work. And so the cover, the book cover with the mushroom and the hammer and then the different divisions, section divisions also with the hand that is like a...

based on birds turning into a hand with a, how do you call that in English? That instrument that is like a set hammer, no? So that is from B.E.Y.,

And then Lilian Sol Cuevas, a Mexican artist and researcher, she did these wonderful collages that say insurgent and ecologist in the beginning of the book, reflecting also this diversity of visions and voices also.

in the other worlds possible. Okay. So I appreciate the time we've both taken here. I don't want to keep you too much longer. So I think I'll

bring our conversation to a close with our traditional final question, which is what are you working on next? And I'm asking that both in terms of your own individual projects that you might be working on and then also what the Undisciplined Environments Collective as a whole is working on. Okay, thank you. Thank you for this interview and this opportunity to discuss about our book.

I personally am continuing my political ecology research and work and I'm more interested over the last years I have tried to see the connection between political ecology, environmental struggles and the discussion of technology. This is my new research focus. I'm trying to see if we can have a political ecology understanding of technology.

And that's my main focus in terms of research and some writing and some teaching. Always here in Greece and I'm traveling around sometimes. And in terms of more activism, what is going on in Greece at the moment is that we continue to... There is a necessity for building...

struggle against the new extractivism activities that are taking place in Greece because of new metal, soil and so on and so on. So we continue a kind of struggle against any kind of new extractivism in the area.

As a group, as a discipline environment group, Gustavo, of course, will add some things, but we are continuing. First of all, we want to enlarge our team in terms of people being involved. We have already...

made a kind of a new, let's call it a recruitment of new people, new researchers, especially younger researchers that are now in their PhD studies or even in their finishing, they just finished their master's studies, that they wanted to join the team and they bring new perspectives.

from different places, from new geographies, new territories that we haven't connections with in the past, and also bringing a new vision within the political ecology debate. So I would say enlargement and empowerment are the two crucial points for our collective

Thank you for this interview and the opportunity to have this conversation. I think that personally I'm based in Portugal for the last five and a half years and I'm trying to grow my roots here. I have a daughter here who is already a tri-identitarian person

her citizen and so she's um you know we're trying to to also make a collective here also grounded and

territorially based collective of political ecology. So we have the ecology and society workshop here at the Center for Social Studies in Coimbra where I'm based and trying to advance the reflections and trainings and gatherings with different scholars and activists and contributing to movements and

climate justice, or against extractivism. So really trying to engage more and more here. And also keeping the connection and building bridges with Puerto Rico, with Latin America. So making that more of my role of helping to bridge and to weave things. And

And then, yeah, so that's my participation in different spaces, press nationally is related to that. And then with some discipline environments, like Georgios was saying, I think that we, yeah, we want to continue being involved

active in this space of publishing blog because we feel it's a good way of communicating political ecology work and discussions that reaches other audiences beyond the academic spaces, but that also facilitates discussions amongst academic researchers and with movements.

We really hope to continue, like Jordi said, growing this space and strengthening it. And we look forward to

to this new membership and also making call outs. And we can take the opportunity now to call out to all your listeners. They are interested to check our website at undisciplinedenvironments.org. And we have a section there on how to contribute or just contacting us at undisciplinedenvironments.org.

and we can have a chat about how to contribute to the blog. We are always open to receiving new contributions. So that's it. Thank you.

All right. Yeah, definitely. Hopefully some of our listeners will check out the organization and maybe get involved as well as picking up a copy of the book and having a read because there's so much more in there that we can get to in this interview. So thank you both again so much for coming on the show today. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for the invitation.

This has been a conversation with Gustavo Garcia-Lopez and Yorgos Veligrakis from the Undisciplined Environments Collective, editors of Insurgent Ecologies Between Environmental Struggles and Post-Capitalist Transformations, published in 2024 by Fernwood Publishing.