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This message comes from Blue Harbor Entertainment, with Audrey's children, the untold true story of Dr. Audrey Evans, whose fight for change redefined medicine and impacted the lives of millions. Starring Natalie Dormer, now playing only in theaters. In Daredevil Born Again, Charlie Cox returns as everyone's favorite blind but with heightened senses Marvel superhero.
This time out, he hangs up his horns and throws himself into his career as a lawyer. At the same time, the criminal mastermind Kingpin decides to go straight and run for mayor of New York City. He's once again played with what can only be called D'Onofrio and Gusto by Vincent D'Onofrio. The two men declare a truce, but will it last?
No. No is the answer. No, it really, really, really won't. I'm Glenn Weldon, and today we're talking about the new Disney Plus series Daredevil Born Again, a pop culture happy hour from NPR. This message comes from NPR sponsor FX. Presenting Dying for Sex. Starring Michelle Williams, Jenny Slate, Rob Delaney, Jay Duplass, and Sissy Spacek.
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Joining me today is NPR's TV critic, Eric Deggans. Hey, Eric, welcome back. Hey, I love how you invented an adjective. Wow. Denoffrian. Denoffrian. Denoffrian.
Because D'Onofri-esque wouldn't work. It is totally apropos, as we will get into. So anyway, glad to be here. Absolutely. Great to have you. In Daredevil Born Again, Charlie Cox is back as Matt Murdock, a.k.a. Daredevil. But when he suffers a terrible loss, Matt decides that his life as a vigilante in red pleather is over. Instead, he's now a partner in a high-powered law firm, but he's distracted by his grief and by the need to figure out just who to punish for it.
We're still in the street-level universe of the original Daredevil series, which ran on Netflix for three seasons. But over here on Disney+, the focus has shifted. Again and again, the series sets up parallels between Murdoch's frustration with the criminal justice system and Wilson Fisk, a.k.a. the Kingpin's frustration, with the day-to-day politicking that comes with running a city. You're a real man of the people now. A rich man, by his very nature, is self-serving. A mayor, a mayor, serves his city. Huh.
Soon, Murdoch and Fisk's personal lives start to tangle together in ways that can't possibly end well for either of them, or for everyone around them.
Daredevil Born Again is streaming now on Disney+. Eric, speaking of frustration, you wrote about this show for NPR. I sensed some frustration in that review. Talk to me more about that. Yeah, I have always loved the characters and the actors on the various Marvel series much more than the stories that they tell with them. Mm-hmm.
And the way this Born Again is kind of structured, there's an overarching story that kind of plays out that I think is really interesting, where both Wilson Fisk and Matt Murdock are trying to tame their alter egos and slowly sort of losing that battle. But there's also these sort of shorter stories, more...
that help complicate everything that I think are not quite up to the level of the core story. And so you're constantly distracted, at least I was, by these stories that I thought weren't quite as good. And I was constantly thinking to myself, man, you know,
I wish this was just a little better. And of course, the show started out being one thing and then it was changed when they realized the original concept wasn't working. And so there are times when it embraces its history and you see these wonderful characters pop up again that we had come to know through the Netflix series. And then there are times when we're in a completely different lane and we're with all these new people and we're kind of like, wait, you know what? That was my take on it.
Yeah, and to your point, after they had largely filmed six episodes already, they changed showrunners, which, you know, as you touched on, the original intention for this Disney Plus iteration was to have a clean break from the Netflix series and kind of strike out on its own. But when they hired the new showrunner, they retooled the show. I mean, the bulk of the season is still those six episodes, but they added a first, eighth, and ninth episode of this season. There's now a lot more connective tissue to the old Netflix series with Foggy and Karen and everything. They also made a bunch of interstitial changes as well to kind of smooth everything out.
I agree it's not as smooth as it could be. I really wasn't put out by the fact that we don't get to see him in the Santa suit, pretty much. I grew up with reading comics, right? You did, too. And so you know the trope. Like, every hero gets the, he gives up being a superhero arc. I was glad it was that one and not the one where they go to space for a year for no reason. Like, I was glad we got that and not the other one. And if we're not going to get a lot of Daredevil in costume, we still get a lot of Daredevil...
Right. He's given up the outfit, but he hasn't given up the powers. So we still get to see Matt Murdock going to town in his little lawyer suit on a bunch of goons. That's fun. There is a fantastic bank heist episode. Yes. That shows us Matt doing his thing while he's trying to stay under the radar. That's a pretty good episode.
pretty great hour of TV. And it's so self-contained. That's what I loved about it. Like in an era when even sitcoms feel like they're serialized now, it's like this is like a perfect little nugget you can pull out. I mean, there was also a lot of stuff I think we'd agree that didn't work for me this season. There's a storyline about a serial killer called Muse that's pretty by the numbers. But I think I'm a little more plus on this than you are. Well, and also in circumstances, I think
overtook this series in a lot of ways. So, for example, the character White Tiger. Yeah. You know, they introduced this character. We're told he's a vigilante who has powers. We don't see that, right? Yeah. We see him captured in civilian garb by cops and then put on trial. And then, you know, when he gets out, he gets killed. Yeah, and we should say that the actor that plays that character, White Tiger, is Camar de los Reyes, who passed away after filming his scenes for the series. Yeah.
You're introduced to this character that you're supposed to care about and that you're kind of invested in, but you never see them really as a vigilante. To me, it felt like there was too many instances like that where things would happen and you weren't quite sure if they're going to pay off and then they kind of end weird. And then you're kind of wondering, did that happen that way because they chose to end the story that way? Or did that happen that way because they were making the best...
of a tough situation where they already had all this stuff that they had filmed and they're trying to use it. There were a lot of times when the show felt a little at odds with itself. Yeah, I agree with that. And I really liked that actor and it is tragic that he passed away, but I don't know, tonally, I'm not sure that the white tiger character really belongs in this particularly grimy, gritty corner of the Marvel universe.
I mean, I think one reason they might have done that thing with not showing him with his powers is because at one point during the trial, Murdoch says something to the effect of, and he did this without the amulet that gives him extraordinary strength and power. And I was like, oh, you can't get away with that.
magical amulet. You can't get away with that in this particular show. It's not like, you know, you can't drop elves in the middle of the wire. It's not going to work. I know, man. I know. Also, his costume is white and New York City is a grimy place. And if you start out the evening in a white costume, you ended up with a beige costume. So I agree. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, Marvel's whole thing on paper is that all these different heroes and villains with their crazy powers live within like 10 blocks of each other. But that works on the comics. I'm not sure it works here. Let's talk about
a little bit about Vincent D'Onofrio here. His character has slimmed down considerably, but the role has gotten a lot beefed up. I mean, he's pretty much half this season and he gets to play comedy in the early going, which I really love because he gets mired in the kind of, you know, glad handing of mayoral politics. So he, there's this one bit where he's shown having to schlep to elementary school while the kids sing, we built this city. Just wonderful.
Children have such talent. I saw an interview with the producers of the show who said they had to actually tell the kids to sing badly because they were singing We Built This City Too Well when they first filmed it. Of course, it's important that it sounds terrible and it's so hard to sit through. I love that. I also loved him being hamstrung by having to kiss up to the powerful men and women of
who actually run the city. You can see him being pushed to the brink by these entitled schmucks, and you can see how frustrating he's getting, and that's a lot of fun. What'd you think of him? - D'Onofrio, I mean, he deserves his own adjective because he has owned this character in a way that, you know, it makes sense that we've seen this character surface in so many other Marvel productions because he's just too good to leave in the world of "Daredevil." And D'Onofrio just eats up every scene he's in. - I was broken.
shattered. For months, I had to put myself back together. We also see D'Onofrio's character slowly realizing that the completely straight and narrow life is not going to work for him. And D'Onofrio is great at giving you that sense that, you know, Kingpin is thinking about the next thing and wondering, how do I live in this job in a way that makes sense for me?
And, you know, we don't want to tip away too much for people because we've seen it all, but he lands on something. And when it clicks, D'Onofrio has given us that whole journey. I think people underestimate when you have somebody as good as him how hard that is. Yeah. And he really pulls it off. He really does. And he speaks in a constant whisper that makes him all the more menacing. And I really enjoyed the parallels that they drew between Murdoch and Fisk, some of which were subtextual, most of which were really, really, really textual. Yeah.
But they lent the season a structure. You have these two characters trying to turn away from violence, but their ties to each other, which is the interesting thing, is what inevitably drives them into conflict. Well, you know, it's two ideas that we constantly see comics interrogating. The idea that the hero and the villain are not that different from each other is something that not only the Daredevil comics have really explored, but, you know, we saw it in Batman and the Joker, right? I don't have to tell you that. You know, this idea of...
there's something inside of these people that compel them to be what they are. And as much as they try to turn away from it, they are not complete until they are that thing. I mean, I like this series more than it sounds like I did. But two other nitpicks. One thing that I love about the first 10 years of Marvel movies is that I thought they were very adept at
at the hierarchy of power. If you watch the first Avengers movie, that movie is very clear about who is stronger than who and who can beat who and who comes out on top when they fight. And it gives you a sense of the range of power every character has. This is me going to comic book geek land, so just deal with it. Seeing a daredevil who takes 10 minutes to take out some shrewd
Schmoe, who's decided to become a serial killer. Oh, yeah, right. Okay. Or to take five minutes to take out a bank robber when he finally gets into a physical fight with him. But he can also beat Bullseye.
that doesn't make any sense. And I understand that they want to make the fight scenes interesting and they want to have suspense and things like that. But for a Marvel viewer who was used to them being very clear about this is the level of power a character has, here's who they can beat easily, here's who they struggle with, here's who they can't beat, they're all over the map with Daredevil. And then, of course, the same problem that the comics have, which is when you have a story this big,
A crime boss named the Kingpin getting elected mayor of New York City and the Avengers are nowhere and Spider-Man is nowhere and people are getting killed and there's no heroes getting involved. They're taking the story beyond Hell's Kitchen.
And yet all these other superheroes who live in New York are magically somewhere else or magically not involved or magically don't care. You know, when it was just stuff that was happening in Hell's Kitchen, maybe you could buy it. But too many suspensions of disbelief.
to a feeling in the back of your head. This story is not quite engaging me. And so you get a buy here, you get a buy there. Man, stack up 12 of them and all of a sudden you got a story that's not quite working. Yeah, yeah. I mean...
I hear what you're saying. I go to very practical answers for both of those things. The answer for why the other heroes don't show up is because the budget is not such that we could have the other heroes show up. They just can't do it. You mean they can't have Chris Hemsworth just make a cameo? They really can't just have Chris Hemsworth just show up for a day and do like a 10-minute cameo. But also, you know, I mean, it is a very Marvel thing, specifically Marvel thing, to put heroes –
in conflict with each other because that's the schoolyard thing we did with comics. Like, oh, Spider-Man could totally beat up the Hulk. The Hulk could beat up anybody. Like, that's it. And that's what you're reacting to. That's what you want from this.
They're trying to level the playing field in a way that isn't true to the comics, but I think it's – they're trying to eke out some drama. They're trying to eke out some suspense. And if he could just beat up anybody in the world, then why are we watching? It seems like film and TV superheroes are always kind of fighting the last battle, always learning the wrong lessons. So Chris Nolan's Dark Knight goes dark and gritty and Hollywood decides that's how we do superheroes. And so –
They don't understand that different heroes have different tones and Batman is night and Superman is day. So they try to do a dark and gritty Superman film. You get Man of Steel, which is nothing. And then Iron Man said, let's try big CGI spectacle, to your point, but add some snarky quips. And that's how we got superhero stories for Avengers, Guardians of the Galaxy, everything. That approach reaches its pinnacle with Thor Ragnarok, which was almost not a superhero story, just a plain comedy, right? Yeah. And then it just takes a nosedive with Thor Love and Thunder, that same approach. Yeah.
doesn't keep working. So now we're kind of lost in the wilderness with superhero stuff. They're just checking boxes. Because they don't have a take. They don't have a point of view. And I'm going to be there for both Superman and Fantastic Four, not because I'm going to say this is how we should always be doing superheroes, but because that's
That's how we should be doing these superheroes. This bright, hopeful tone fits these characters. And it certainly seems like this kind of dark and gritty thing fits Daredevil. It finally seems like Hollywood is learning that one sign doesn't fit all and that a bold primary color every now and then isn't going to kill you. It's enough with the sepia tones. And again, you know, I'm going to bring it back to Daredevil. The core story is strong. These other stories are not.
And I really, really, really hope that for the second season, they learn from the first season and don't just drown in the appreciation. I mean, fans were just so glad to see these characters back.
They were really smart in how they revamped the first episode where we got to see the band brought back together again. We got a tragedy that really jarred us. We got to see this epic fight between Daredevil and Bullseye. Like that whole first episode was perfect. I think it's probably sustained us through episodes that were not so perfect. So I can't wait to see.
A full season with this creative team fully in charge. Totally agree. And as you can tell, Daredevil Born Again has given us a lot to think about. So we want to know what you think about Daredevil Born Again. Find us at Facebook.com slash PCHH. That brings us to the end of our show. Eric Deggans, thank you so much for being here, my friend. Oh, man. Thank you for letting me geek out and just run on and on and on.
I apologize, but man, I'm a comic book geek, and once you get me started, I just can't stop. If you can't geek out with me, then who can you geek out with? Seriously. The episode was produced by Hafsa Fatima and edited by Mike Katzeff. Our supervising producer is Jessica Reedy, and Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Glenn Weldon, and we'll see you all tomorrow.
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