The Coldest Case In Laramie - Episode 2
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These first two episodes of the coldest case in lyam y are free. But here the whole series, you'll need to subscribe to the new york times, where you'll get access to all the serial productions and new york times shows and is super easy you can sign up through apple podcast or spotify. And if you're already a time subscriber, just link your account and you're done. Previously, on the coldest case in army.

I just I feel like that there could be something there, especially given great was a cop.

There is something there.

i'm sure. I remember the shelf c and me and tel me, look at those weirdo. Serve my neighbors. He's a weirdo. Then I got really quiet, and I was like, he was whispering in the phone and he said, you need to pursue this. Don't stop.

There is home working, if you guys could get me like, if you could talk to me show, see if you talk to .

me and 安全 没 上 过 party。

All right, can you hear me now?

My g okay.

oh gosh. Oh my god. It's actually working. I just heard, all right, lory bRandy made good on their homework.

Within a day of our first conversation, lorri connected me with Shelley's old roommate, Michelle. Michelle is a striking woman. Big guys, bigger smile.

We met a resume SHE prepared for the interview in a way I didn't. I wear a baseball cap and soft pandemic clothes with shell dress for this meeting. Like an important job interview in full makeup and blown out hair, SHE was eager to talk.

How do you mean Shelly .

at the restaurant? We were waiters. Is there kind look a little bit of like and had a lot of the same thing. You know, we are both pretty good students and just we just think we hit IT off.

There's a sweet, sweet, sweet person and we were just IT was like we are a married couple of, know we are obviously to females. But I remember I bought a washing dryer, SHE bought a stereo, we had a, we had milk crates for furniture, you know, we had our stuff and the grades. We just thought we were so cool, we are so poor, but we we just felt.

Like we had at all and .

had you waited .

tables before, how did you end up at Fosters?

Um they just were higher and I went down there and that I Better find a job. It's funny because I didn't. I come from a big spanish family, five kids, nobody's ever left home.

And then I told my parents i'm going to go away to college. Me like, yeah, you are and I and you know there you know were poor family and they move. I'm going to get a job and never like, okay, good luck with that.

And then come june forth, I was, I was packed my bags. I didn't like bags and my bags. I pack my boxes full my clothes and I said, i'm leaving tomorrow and my brother was like, my god is really been so my dad had him drive with me and and move there.

We drove in the learning doing for and IT snow and he was like, I won't tell you if you come back home, I won't say a word and I like, no, i'm i'm staying so I play for job at Fosters and got hired work their full time the weird thing I never forget, big peat from big peat welding said, why did you move here and I said, I came to go to college. He said, you're going to get an education, but it's not even be a school. I thought, what does he mean by that? Well, he wasn't kidding that that town gave me an indication.

I remember IT so well. I remember IT like like IT was yesterday. I stayed with my at my boyfriend's house and we got in a huge fight.

And because I wanted to go home and and I said I want to go home, I don't feel right. Something felt weird. And I remember I was either two or three in the morning and he said, you can't go home now.

It's Better the night. Nothing's going to change between now and then. And I just said something to wrong.

I don't feel, I don't I I cannot describe IT and I can't tell you why. And then that morning early, I went home and I was like, five or six or something. And that's how I saw the flame.

I saw the apartment so burning. And when I pulled up, that's when the officer said, who are you when I said, I live here and and then they said, we're Shelly and I thought, what you mean, we're Shelly. She's in the house and I was yesterday just going crazy.

I just could never forget those words. They said, do you know where shelters? And I was just like compounded. So what you mean do I know SHE is she's in the house and I just went crazy, just went not can image no.

So shortly after Sally was killed, I met my husband, who am diverse with, and married him quickly. He was ten years older than I was. He was a high school teacher, and I was scared out of my mind. IT was a scary time, and I was just searching for um comfort and that was, you know, he was he was thirty. I was money and he was a high school teacher and I thought he was not gna hurt me you and do .

you think that Shelley does I mean, I would image had everything .

to do with that all guarantee because right after um so when Shelly was killed I was um I was still in shock. I was so Young and I was just I didn't even call my parents when that happened until probably you know the next day and I think one of the detective said we ve got to call your and then um my dad wanted me to move back home because I was scared and and I wouldn't and then somebody sent me. I started rented an apartment basement apartment. Fosters gave me like six hundred dollars, but I didn't have any clothes on.

My clothes were burned and um I didn't even have a coat, I don't really think and so they gave me six hundred dollars so I could rent an apartment and then somebody mailed me a card with a hundred dollar bill in IT and said, if you're smart, you leave count so the detectives, Scott, the car, I called them right a way because I was so scared I thought I was going to come from me next with nobody knew that I lived and and I hadn't been there for more than maybe a week. And so I did leave and I stayed home for a month. And then I was just, I felt like I was running away.

I said, I never build to face my fears and face what happened. I just wanted to go back to learn. Yeah, but that was all just so, so real. 然后 you know， somebody sending me now, they think he was probably fred. They did that, you know, the detectives, but back they I don't know, you know, all the things that he did to us while we are an apartment IT was constant, you know. And back then I was just so IT was so strange, because, or I laugh, laughed, what we were talking about, how I used to work, grave ards.

And so one time I woke up in the the day, and there was a mouse inside my shirt on my belly, and how does that get there, you know? And my screen would come out of my windows all the time, and and then he would say, and then I was screaming because that muscles on my belly, I was freaking out, and he all the sudden at the door and was like to, what's wrong? What's wrong? D, V, to help.

And how did he know, you know, that I think you put the mouse. I don't know. I guess I don't know that for sure, but I know for sure that you would take the screens off, ask me for help, and then say, can I come in and help .

you put your screen on? Or so of you obviously ouldn't him take. He was saying .

to help with, I notice your screen are off. Can I help you put your strings back on? And stuff.

So yeah in hindside now there is I would say I am ninety nine point nine percent redland merger. Shelly, I I think you know what my gut tells me is SHE smoked. He smoked.

I think he went out probably when smoke in the house, SHE was outside to smoke because I brought her, I went to Flora with my parents that june, and I brought her an astray from florida, and that was outside, all broken. And I think SHE was outside smoking. He pray him outside.

He probably hit on her. He told him this go pounds and and I bet he tried the raper and that's my thought. I don't know truth.

Ly, what have that all happened? But it's think he was outside smoking when he started talking to. I think he ably didn't give him a time a day. You just really was drunken lost IT. So the stuff about .

being a former cop and a former deputy, you know, IT creates some complications, I would think with the investigation like that, was there some where they like good because is one of yes.

yes, yes and and nobody question effect that at five bm he's fully dressed and that he's not even at his house but not his house. He said somebody else's house. He's a married man there and that this truck was parked in the parking lot away running. There's a matter of bias, bias truck, you know, nobody question then you are those things nobody did and then let them reave town.

what was the .

match but they didn't investigate him, take his printer, do anything at that time. They just had that match book. And there's let int on IT.

They tested Lorry, they tested me. They took hair samples from me, from my pubic hair, from mory, but they didn't test for. And then they let him leave the very next day with all of his clothes and all of its beats and everything that was there. I just knew that they weren't looking in the right direction and they didn't have a freak clue who did that because if there they're doing all of this as they didn't know what they were doing, they had no idea.

The crazy thing crazy thing of life. So i've worked at the Arthur c center, the rock ism fort calls for seventeen years. Now there's a um guy that works there that a minute guy, he worked there for thirty years.

We've known each other seventeen years and when the first thing came out about fred, um he had the article on his desk and I thought, let's weird, why would this guy have this article in on his desk? IT turns out that he was the guy that found the apartment on fire that found Shelly that actually knocked on fried lands store and cut fred fully closed at five A. M.

And fred wouldn't let him in his house. Fd wouldn't told him, you can't help her on a police officer. You need to just slave everything alone.

Wait for the fire department. Become brico is trying to stop him, but how crazy that. And i've always wondered who is that man that helped helped us start today and tried to help Shelly. And I worked for them for seventeen years. I never even knew that it's a strange thing.

Are you OK I record .

this phone call? Yeah, I guess so.

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Pec collin's, the maintenance guy was a little more reluctant to talk than machine was. He fell to me like I speak only when you ve got something to say, kind of guy. I haven't lived in the mountain in west for decades, but i'm familiar with the type yet. When I came down to the morning, Shelley was killed that was full of details.

Well so a man of body got up early um in the morning to go l county and he was run in late. So I was took off, run down to the flight store and drove right by the house and didn't see anything, went into the flight store for just couple minutes and picked up some stuff for lunch and turned around, was on my way back when I went, drove by the house and flames were shooting up the door and so I fung around and pulled up front, jumped out when IT running up to the house and right away um saugh Shelly in on the floor and um yelled out and SHE didn't move so I tried to get in and I just stuck my head in the door and my hair started singing 就是 barely even get my head in the door so I just knew there was no way I was onna get all away and so I ah went running to the neighbors and started pounding on the door and the guy comes to the door and I tell him that the apartments on fire and I needed for him to get me out and weight so I can try to get in and and if the girl out he kind of he not he would not move to what doing anything and I think I actually just pushed him out the way and what ran in his house， grab some thousand and came back. And by the time I got back over the apartment, my buddy had showed up.

And when he showed up, he tried to do the same thing and we IT was just White too hot first to get in but um so anyhow, the the neighbor, which i'm sure you've heard who that is, right? But i'm i'm helping out here. I'm trying for guys name fred red .

land yeah fred .

lam and he was just like he was just out of the and and obviously I was my journal was pumped in like crazy and he wasn't moving and helping me and I was going on crazy to try get in there and and um you could literally see the flames coming out of the door. The door was open, the window was busted out from the lingerings of fans were flight coming out. And I don't even remember him sick in his head of the doctor.

Look over, but you just drive me crazy. And H, I remember stand in IT is door and we could see where someone was hitting the door with a bloody hand, and then there was a big cool of blood. Then you could see where obviously he was, had hit the ground and in was drug back over to her apartment.

And we were so blogged away by the blood on the side, walked IT. You know, we thought I was just an innocent accident that that her place got on fire and that SHE got in smoke in the lation and passed out or so, you know, that's that's kind where we were at until we saw that blood. And real like curly check what the hell is going on here.

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So the fire department showed up and and they took a statement, got her names and everything, and and sunday be in touch. So we went hunting and and came back later, and they call this masses to come in. So we were in.

And one of the first things I told him was the the neighbor I go, you've got to check this guy out. He is he. He just seemed to guilty of health. Ts, he knew something and would not help him. And if a detective was like, you don't worry about him as a police offers, you don't need to worry about him. And when they told me that I did, came on, god, I was like, what the hell you talking about that? That makes IT even worse, that he never even stepped out of his apartment, that he couldn't come over and help me if you tell him him a cup so I was just lived and make they call me down and so we talked about you know everything and then that's when they told me that um SHE had already SHE was already dead when I start um which mean my body both didn't have a clue at that we thought he might be still alive and we couldn't get into gather so IT was just kill enough all day long but any alerts that mean I don't know if you get and that's pretty much all I know.

Um well let me let you just talk. Let me ask you a few follow up questions. Do you remember talking about the guy you remember taught having that conversation? Like what what a strange encounter.

Yeah I mean, that was the first place I was go on with those when the detectives were talk to me that night.

So and did you hear anything from them after that?

I don't think we did, but I don't remember. I am contacting us. Until all cobol was that um twenty some years later, when Terry opened the back of A.

What do you think about that?

Well, actually know if you ask if that seems off with strange. I.

Just I mean, I always thought that was always just so weird, although, you know, they they came out in the papers and they I remember him saying, and they they thought I was a truck driver and this and that we always would talk and wonder who the hacked IT could have been and just figured IT was like the police were saying that they thought that was a pass or by, you know, someone travelling through and they were gone. But I still, you know, I I never get get any answers. so.

Yeah.

and here we are. Yes, you know and that that was just absolutely so matter for you on shell. And I said detective story told us a lot of the stuff that he had in a kali cow. And this almost seems like an open and close case and and in the paper even put in his his statement that yeah, yeah I did do you member how that he worked? That was like, yeah yeah I did um saying .

that I did this wood like, yeah, what was that exactly?

Like, yeah yeah I yeah .

didn't like that. yeah. His lawyer argued that he was, uh, browbeating.

But he was what .

brow beaten because he like um that he was you know in old man who was diabetic, was hungry and didn't and you know with talk to for seven hours and so you know basically all the step was taken out of context.

So 也是。

I D.

利润 里 的。

Yeah okay, this is what IT says in the story from the the booming. According to the documents, during a police interview, laminitis denied the homicide allegation that later said friendly and did IT god, god, i'm not denying that I did IT and quote and quote and quote, bottom is I killed the girl and quote the document date and constantly denied remembering .

the crime itself. wow. Yes, that's why, that's why, you know, this came out just a while after we had met with Terry and we were all like, yes, this is gonna over in no time and in nothing.

yeah.

There wasn't a whole lot more reporting I could do for my apartment, brooklyn police reports, court filings. None of that was online, neither were the news reports from back in the day. But lucky for me, IT was march twenty twenty one in the vaccine.

Ines were rolling out in new york. The country was starting to open up again. So first stop is. Vaccine, and then left me right. I had a little vacation time, two parents who lived across the country, who I hadn't seen in more than a year. I figured I pack at my dog, Lucy rabb, my friend Jasmine, and go on a road trip, make a pit stop and Larry me poke around the level, see what I can see.

You think?

One very concern.

bulldog concern g. So I think just go .

like this the time.