Catherine Jones and Her Little Brother
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What's going on, everybody? I'm Marah. And I'm Tez. And welcome back to Sisters Who Kill. Most people think that the government is here to help you. Services are put in place so that they can keep us safe, keep our children safe, keep the education system running. But what happens when all the cries for help are ignored? ♪♪

Our players this week are Sonia Nicole Spites, the victim, Curtis Jones, the murderer, and Catherine Jones, our murderess. In 1984, Stacey Cole, who was 18, started dating Curtis Jones Sr., who was 23. Stacey was a white woman whose parents disapproved of her relation with Curtis due to him being Black.

Within six months of dating, Stacey became pregnant with Catherine. Catherine was born prematurely on June 6, 1985, and was just over three pounds. Stacey says that she thinks that Catherine was born prematurely due to a tear in her uterus from a domestic violence incident.

On May 31st, 1986, the couple had their second child, Curtis Jr. The couple got married in 1989, but months later, Stacey decided she couldn't take the abuse anymore. I heard that, like, they got married. They got married because their relationship was so bad. And so they were like, here's our last ditch effort to save our relationship. Let's go ahead and get married. I never understand it. Me neither. Like...

We can just break up. It's just not meant to be, you know? Shortly after she decided that she couldn't take the abuse anymore, she pawned a gold chain and bought a one-way bus ticket to her parents' house. She left her children behind, who were just three and four, because her parents was not having to mix kids live up in their house. It didn't matter anyways because Curtis Sr. refused to let her leave with his kids anyways. The same year, on October 2nd, 1989...

Curtis was then arrested for a charge of second degree murder after shooting two men in a pool hall and the children had to go to Alabama to stay with their grandmother. The murder charge was dropped to a misdemeanor for self-defense and

And once the case ended, Curtis moved his kids back with him to Port St. John, Florida. In 1995, the divorce between Curtis and Stacey was finalized. Stacey paid child support and the custody agreement between the two said that the kids would spend summers and holidays with mom in Kansas City. Although abusive, Stacey said that Curtis was a great father, like...

Catherine was a complete daddy's girl. The kids begin school and the teachers said that they were bright, that they were gifted. And they noticed that Catherine, she really took pride in doing well in school. And Curtis Jr., he was active. He was a little busybody. Both the kids, they got into trouble, some minor disciplinary actions, nothing major, nothing that's complete red flags, maybe early signs of ADHD, depression.

I've heard on a couple of podcasts that maybe they were acting out to get attention, but they were a little disruptive. And as somebody with ADHD for their entire lives, I understand how this can... It wasn't bad. Just a little disruptive. Just a little disruptive. Stacey got married again, got divorced.

got married a third time, and had two more kids throughout that entire process. Catherine and Curtis, they would talk to their mom all the time about everything, especially dad's new girlfriends. They would be like, oh yeah, this girlfriend's cool. This girlfriend spent the night. She be here.

There was one lady came through the middle of the night and I ain't even seen her no more. I'm just kidding. I don't know. But they were talking about the girlfriends and they were telling which ones they did and they didn't like. Once when Catherine was seven years old, she told her mom, mom, I really want to live with you. But in the same breath, she told her, but I just...

can't leave dad he needs me which is like a lot of pressure but also like she's the oldest of she's the oldest girl she's her dad is black so she's being raised in a black family usually the oldest girls take on those responsibilities of a mother and she really was doing that at the age of seven she was helping getting getting her brother together she was helping keep the house in order she was a daddy's girl she was still a kid but she definitely was having to

act older than her age. Well, after that happened, Stacey drove down to Florida and she picked up her kids and she was like, I'm going to take y'all back to Kansas City. She did that. And then she was arrested and charged for custodial interference. But the charges were dropped later because she ended up giving the kids back. Like he immediately was like, send her ass to fucking jail.

At some point, their dad reconnected with this unnamed family member. And this unnamed family member has stayed unnamed because this unnamed person, how do I say this, uh,

never got charged with their crime, and there are no official documents of this person. So in all of the stories, this person just remains unnamed. But anyways, this unnamed family member just got out of prison for six years for doing armed robbery. And in fact,

Back in September of 1993, he was convicted of having sex with his girlfriend's 14-year-old daughter. Already starting off bad. And Curtis Sr. got this person in the house. Now, in 94, Curtis was on a trip with mom in Kansas City, and he was about eight years old at the time. He told mom that the man, the unnamed family member, not only were they having to share a bed, but he also admitted to mom

that this unnamed family member was touching him inappropriately. Stacey was like, oh, fuck no, and had authorities sent right away to the house because ain't no way. Ain't no fucking way, right? So on August 22nd, 1994, authorities talked to Curtis Jr. When they talked to Curtis Jr., he was like, he kind of tensed up, and he was like, actually, I lied. I lied. I lied. Everything's fine.

I'm not being abused at home. Nobody's touching me inappropriately. Everything's fine. I just, I made it up because I wanted to either live with my mom or I wanted that man to move out of the house. That's it. That's it. That's all. And the police just said, okay, and closed the investigation. First of all, if you said I lied because I want to either live with my mom or this man to move out of the house. What is this man doing that bothers you so? And they just...

They just shut the case. Nothing else ever happened of it. In the late 90s, Curtis Sr. began dating Sonia. And the kids told their mom that they really liked her. She was nice. Sonia had two kids of her own, and the kids viewed each other as actual siblings. They even had nicknames for Curtis and Catherine. They would call them Munchie and Peewee. And they looked up to them. They had a really good relationship. Now, Sonia's baby daddy, who was also her estranged husband, was doing a 20-year bid. So she was kind of...

you know, biding time with Curtis in the meantime. In August 1996, Curtis Jr. went to school with a black eye and the school staff reported it. A second investigation was launched and again closed without any action being taken. Catherine told her dad that the man in the home was abusing her and she expected her dad to be upset and enraged and want to kill this man. But instead, she said he didn't believe her and she felt like he took sides.

I mean, like, listen, I don't have no daddy, but like I know people that are daddy's girls and the people that I know that are daddy's girls are very much like, oh, my daddy is a character. So I'm having to me is going to be straight. And so having that expectation that you're going to be protected and then realizing at the that at a very, very young age that, oh, wait.

dad's not going to protect me. That's got to be heartbreaking. Yeah, disappointment is a really, really intense feeling and not like small disappointment, like, oh, I thought I was going to get that. But like when somebody really, truly lets you down, like you really trusted that person. And then like all your hope and faith and everything you expected out of that person. Have you ever heard the poem? Have you ever heard the poem? When your hero falls from grace? It's by Tupac.

It is... Let's see if Mariah memorized it. I might. It just reminds me of the situation. It says, when your hero falls from grace...

All your fairy tales are uncovered. Myths exposed and pain magnified. The greatest pain discovered. That chunk. Your dad is your hero. When you see that, like, your world is just rocked. Yeah. In a serious way at such a young age for such a young child. For a little girl that is, by all accounts, everybody said that she was the true daddy's girl. Right. Right.

Like, mind blown. In the summer of 1998, Sonia moved in with Curtis and his kids. Her daughters lived with them for a short period of time, but Sonia soon sent them to live in Alabama with their grandmother. They never gave a reasoning behind that, but I'd like to know the reasoning behind that.

I definitely would, too, because if he has a history of being abusive to his sexual partners and also has a history of being complacent when children are being touched, Sonia was probably doing the best that she could. And Sonia has a history of being in not so great relationships with not so great men since her estranged husband is doing a 20 year bid. She was probably like, I just need to get them out and probably felt trapped like that.

women in abusive situations really feel like they're

stuck in that. And I mean, I guess she was trying to make the best that she at least try to keep her daughters away from that. That's the only thing way that I can wrap my mind around it. Yeah. On September 22nd, 1998, Catherine ran away from home to a crisis center. A few days later, a teacher reported suspicions of sexual abuse. Investigators said they found some evidence of beatings, sexual molestation, excessive corporal punishment, and

an inadequate supervision of a child. On September 25th, a meeting with DCFS, Curtis Jr. denies ever being touched inappropriately when he's being interviewed by these investigators. They're coming to him concerned because they're like, listen, Catherine's been at the crisis center for three days at this point. Why doesn't she want to come home? The following day, September 26th, they go and they have a meeting with Catherine and she's

She recants her story. She takes it all back, and they send her back to the house, and they decide to close the case. DCFS told Curtis Sr. that the man in the house should move out because of his sexual offender status. They also offered counseling and parental education, but Curtis denied all help. A few days later, Catherine, who was only 13, was in the shower when this family member came into the bathroom and started jacking off in front of her. And then when he was done, he left 50 cents on the toilet, like...

I don't have any words. I don't. I don't even have any words. Usually we have some witty remark, but like you reduce that child to 50 cents. Yeah.

And she said, like, she was just so stunned. Like, what? She was a child and this is happening in front of her. She was almost, like, shell-shocked. Right. Catherine said this was the straw that broke the camel's back. And this is what first made her start coming up with a plan to kill him. If you're listening to this, you probably already know what I'm about to say. That today is the day for you to start your podcast. You have everything that you need. Your computer, a little microphone, and Spotify for podcasters. It is the all-in-one platform where you can host, edit, edit.

and record your podcast and distribute it everywhere. Where you're listening right now, you can have your podcast there. I promise, for real. And it's free. And you can make some money off of your podcast. For free. Free money. Free money is out there. Just go get it by starting your podcast today. Streaming October 6th on Paramount+. First place I learned about death was a pet cemetery. Dead things buried in that land would come back.

There's something else. Something's wrong with Timmy. He needs time to adjust. That's not Timmy. Something's talking to him.

Sometimes dead is better. Pet Cemetery. Bloodlines. Rated R. Streaming only on Paramount+. She said she felt unprotected, especially since her dad did not believe her. One day on the way to school, Curtis Jr. was talking to Catherine. And he was like, hey, you know, I know that we've been having this back and forth with DCFS, but I wanted to let you know that I believe you, that, you know, this stuff has been happening because he's been touching me inappropriately too. He's been doing the same abusive shit to me too. And...

both of them realized that they had been left at the hands of the same abuser. And they both realized that they were really disappointed and mad at their dad about this. And so the two siblings together, Catherine, who's 13, and Curtis Jr., who's 12, they decided amongst themselves that they were being victimized so much that the only way out of this situation was to kill them. Now, initially, they wanted to kill the unnamed family member for the abuse,

They also were like, well, I also want to kill daddy because, you know, he didn't believe us and he's just left us high and dry. And then they landed on, you know what? Every single adult failed us.

all of them have to go Sonia she was still in the house and I'm not really sure why they said why she ended up having to be a part of this story but my only thing that I can come up with is that they felt that Sonia who was somebody that they seemed by all accounts seemed to really look up to and really enjoy they felt that she wasn't protecting them either like damn you sent your kids away and just left us here and of course she doesn't have the authority over them you know

And clearly he wants them to be there. I think maybe even if it's like, you don't have the authority to send them away, but you wouldn't let your kids live in this house and you wouldn't let your kids experience this, but you sit here and watch us experience this every day. Yeah. I mean, what's she going to do? Tell Curtis Sr. to not do something? Get slapped the fuck out around? You know, get the shit beat out of her? Like...

If she's in that situation, too, I can only assume that Curtis Sr. was also abusing Sonia. His history shows that it is very likely. So I can see Sonia having her hands tied, but there is also, I mean, a sense of responsibility being the woman in the house. And at least the kids felt that I think it really just ended up being like all the adults have failed us. On January 6th, 1999, just two weeks later, they were ready to make their move. Catherine was 13 and Curtis was 12.

Curtis Sr. went out on errands with the unnamed family member and Sonya was home alone with the kids. Sonya and the kids were at the table completing a puzzle when all of a sudden Curtis Jr. takes a 9mm semi-automatic out of his lap and shoots Sonya in the chest. Sonya tried...

Like...

Like, up until this point, it's just been an idea. And now here we are with a dead person in front of us. So Catherine's trying to calm him down. And at this point, the kids are like, all right, fuck this plan. We've had enough of the killing. They're like, let's just clean up the mess. So the kids take her to the bathtub and they try and clean up the blood with bleach. Catherine calls her best friend and they meet up at another friend's house. And she tells them that she accidentally shot Sonia. But before, like, any parents get involved or whatever...

Catherine and Curtis run away to the woods behind their house and they sleep under a pile of blankets. And Catherine tells Curtis, if anything happens to you, tell them I did it. Tell them you had nothing to do with it.

The next morning, around 6 or 7, the sheriff's find them. And initially, the cops had them riding in separate cars. And Catherine says, I threw a fit. I was like, no. And the cops ended up putting them in the same car and letting them ride to the station together. I mean, I probably throw a fit, too. This is my brother, and we just spent the night under a pile of blankets that we found in the back of the woods. Yeah, you better give me my brother. Teachers at school were shocked.

shocked about the news. I mean, Sonia's daughters were only eight and nine at the time and Sonia's baby daddy slash, you know, husband, you know, technically they were married. He was not allowed to leave the prison to go to the funeral because he was still locked up and did not get that permission. And,

And when Catherine and Curtis talk to the cops, Curtis like immediately fesses up to his part. They go back and forth and they say that they killed Sonia because they were jealous of her. They were jealous of the attention that their father was giving Sonia over them. And they were very matter of fact, straight to the point. They're like, this is why we did it.

We were jealous. This is why we wanted to get rid of her. And detectives stated that in the interview, Catherine took responsibility for the plan and she showed like no remorse. She was stone cold, straight faced. Throughout the investigation, neither of the kids mentioned the abuse at all.

At all. At all. The detectives knew that there were incidents with DCFS and, you know, the cases were closed. So technically there's nothing to look into, right? Their defense lawyer says later that he wished they would have brought up the abuse so that he had something to build the case on. But in the end,

But in my mind, I'm like, if you're the defense lawyer, isn't it your job to find the truth? But the kids were sticking to their story. And if the cases are saying it's closed and the kids are saying we were lying, what can you do? They both stuck to their story about jealousy. They never revealed to their defense attorney about the plan to kill the unnamed family member, to kill the father. They never admitted that plan at all. Catherine said the worst part of this entire ordeal was seeing her dad

crying as the cops told him, your kids aren't coming back. They're getting charged with first degree murder. He broke down. I mean, he was like, my babies, I don't understand. Why are they taking my babies? I mean, police tried to get Catherine to turn on her brother. They tried to say that, you know, if you say that it was all him, then maybe you can go home. If you tell us that it was all his plan, she was like,

Absolutely no way. The only reason he is in here is because of me. Relatives of Sonia and the kids spoke out saying that they wanted the kids tried as adults. Yeah, Sonia's family was not having that whatsoever. A few weeks later, the kids went before a grand jury and they were indicted for first degree murder and was charged as a pair of adults. If they would have had this case in juvenile court, the max that they would have gotten is 36 months.

So her family was pushing for the maximum sentence that they could get, which would be charging them as adults. And it's just like, uh. Since the kids were still saying that the only motive was jealousy, the defense didn't have much of a case to make. The kids' attorney worked together on an appeal that would avoid them receiving life as an adult in prison. At first, they offered Catherine 18 years and Curtis 22 years, and Catherine refused the deal, saying, we go home together or we don't go home at all. On August 6, 1999, they both took pleas for

I saw this clip of...

Curtis's lawyer. And he was just like, he was like, I was shocked when they said that they were going to convict him, especially just taking his maturity into account because it wasn't there. He was like, just looking at his face when they gave the sentence, he was shocked. He was shocked at the consequences.

He was like, he couldn't fathom what they were saying to do. And he's like, and I'm trying to talk to him and answer any questions. I'm like, do you have any questions for me before you go? You don't even know what to ask. He says, can I take my Nintendo with me? And he's like, that's when I was just like, oh, my God.

This kid just has no fucking idea. They really just put this kid in prison. He asking to take his Nintendo to adult prison. So right after the sentencing, the judge ordered a contact visit for them to see each other one last time before they went out to serve their sentence, which I think was a nice little jester. Right. Especially since part of their sentence was that they were not allowed to have any contact with each other whatsoever. Well...

They had, no, they were able to at first and then they couldn't. So in this case, there was no trial. There was no testimony. There was no evidence presented. The family never got to speak on Sonia's behalf and, you know, tell us what she was like.

We never got to know to what extent she played in the abuse or the ignoring of the abuse. Any at all. We weren't able to examine extenuating factors and circumstances. In a later interview, Catherine expresses remorse for killing Sonia.

She wishes that she would have just focused their plot on the family member and their dad. She stated that when she first went to jail, she felt relieved because she knew finally that she wouldn't go back home. She said, I know it sounds messed up, but I was relieved because I was alone and I was safe. Like, I just think about how many people and their children, they're 13 and 12, but how many kids,

Not only children, but adults as well are just like, damn, thank goodness I'm in prison. I am finally safe from my abuser. Right. Thank goodness I am locked away because I, I mean, even the fact that, because, you know, if you were a minor in an adult prison, if you're charged as an adult, you still have to stay in a separate wing of that adult prison and you can't interact with the adults until you become an adult. So if any other kids came through the prison,

She would have company. If not, she was completely alone, both of them. And in that seclusion, you know, we've made many of our opinions about solitary and being secluded in prison. But in that seclusion, she finally felt peace. In 2002, Catherine got her GED and she has been proven to be a model inmate throughout her entire sentence.

In 2003, FSU law professor Paolo Anino began working on a clemency packet that would pardon them or reduce their sentence, but it never went through. They're always, this is Florida, y'all, if y'all forgot. Yeah.

In 2004, an expert interviews Catherine and writes this report stating, Catherine is very remorseful for her crime and she does not present a danger to society or to herself. This is because somebody actually looked into their cases and was like, there is something more than just jealousy here. There has to be. It's

It's crazy that it took all that time for somebody to just be like, you know what? Jealousy can't just be it. Curtis also was known as a model citizen. He got into citizen. Curtis was also known as a model inmate. He got into trouble one time. So in 2004, and so in 2004, if y'all don't remember in 2004, that was the year that Florida got like four hurricanes in one week, back to back to back to back to back. And where Curtis Jr. was being held was,

The gate fell down because of the hurricanes. So Curtis Jr. and a couple of other people, they were like, let's go. They escaped for a full 24 hours before they were caught. It's like that scene on Orange is the New Black. Yes, when they found like the river or whatever. And they were like, oh my gosh.

So, yeah, because of that, they added an additional 318 days to his sentence. Now, usually co-conspirators are not allowed to talk to each other in prison, but the COs, they kind of knew their situation. They knew what was up and they allowed the two to correspond for a little while. And something happened. I think Curtis got transferred to a new prison. He's got new COs over him, new warders, new people in charge. And they were like, absolutely not. You cannot correspond with Catherine.

This was really hard for them because, I mean, look at everything that they've gone through. They were best friends. Catherine stated that when they stopped letting them correspond, that was the absolute worst thing that they could do to her. Curtis, he really was a model citizen other than that one incident. And he actually also became and he actually became an ordained minister. In 2009, a journalist wrote a story about them saying,

He went and interviewed Catherine, and Catherine revealed that each time she recanted her story as a child, it was under the duress of her father's threats. She was told that she was going to be separated from her brother and placed in foster care, and she was already forced away from her mom, and it just wasn't an experience that she wanted to go through. She was kind of scared out of talking, whether it was through beating or through telling a story. You know, like, she knew that's not what she wanted.

She also talks about how therapies helped her learn that when she was going through all that, she was in an emotional shutdown. Like after the incident, she was like, I wasn't there. She said, that's why the cops thought I didn't show any remorse and that I was stone cold. I didn't have any feelings.

She said, I didn't even cry until six months later. The people at the prison were scared I was going to have a breakdown. They put her on a whole bunch of meds. And she was like, she was slowly coming off the meds. And it wasn't until around her fifth year that it finally hit her of what she'd done and the consequences of it all. Like, she's like, like, I took a life. Like, you know what I mean? She even says, she even tells a story. She's like, it wasn't until about nine months after visitation with her dad.

that she finally called. And she was like, her dad was like, thank God. I just thought you turned into this stone cold person. And I was just so worried for you. And she was just like, I just, she's like, I just want to come home. He was like, I just been waiting to hear you say that. And it's just like, you, you were the catalyst to why she wanted away from home in the first place. And the fact that she had to just find out that there was someplace worse than home

And there's not too many things worse than home. But the fact that she had to go to prison, which was cool at first and straight and better than home at first. In July of 2009, Catherine became pen pals with this active cellular in the Navy. His name is Ramos. And so he reads the article that we were just talking about. He's like a true crime enthusiast. And he reads local articles in a newspaper in Florida. Right.

And so he reads this article and he becomes intrigued. And then he goes in and looks at the video and he was like, damn, ain't she cute? So he starts writing her and they start having conversations and then he starts visiting her in jail regularly. And the two fell in love.

In 2013, they got married in the jail or they got married in the prison. And he made plans like he was like, I'm going to retire when you get out. And, you know, we're just going to live the rest of our life together when you're free.

So on August 1st, 2015, at 30 years old, she was released and she had goals of either getting into law or opening a restaurant. She talked about also in that interview how like she was kind of excited. She was like, I want to do law and I want to do, you know, open a restaurant. But, you know, first I got to like do things. She was like, I came in here when I was 13. I never experienced high school. I never finished college. I've never got my nails done. How do you even like...

Socialize. Yeah, she's like, I never got my nails done. I never put highlights in my hair. I've never walked in heels. She's like, I just... Never driven a car. You know? She's like, I gotta... First, I gotta see what life is like, you know? Which is crazy. Like, she... And she's coming out of a different era. She went in in the 90s. Coming out of 2015. Right.

And 90s as a child, not 90s as a fully functioning adult. It's a long time. 99, that was kindergarten for me. That was kindergarten. So 99, that's a long time from 99 to 2015, which was the year before I graduated undergrad. The world changed. I mean, floppy disks were all the rage. And Google had been used. She skimped right past CDs and like...

You know, I mean, she missed Ask Jeeves. She missed MySpace. She missed it all. Yeah. And now you're supposed to be this functioning member of society. You don't even know what society is.

She moved to Kansas, and in 2015, she did an interview. In November of 2015, she did an interview speaking about her work with a social justice organization called ICANN, stands for Incarcerated Children Advocacy Network. And then there's another one, CFSY, Campaign for Fair Sentencing of Youth, which I love when people get

that relate back to what they've been through because that's who can put the most passion behind it. Exactly. On July 28, 2017, Curtis was relieved from South Bay Correctional Institution. You know, they were still life on parole. But he never did an interview. He never did any press. And Catherine did another interview where she had mentioned...

how her marriage didn't work out, but she was looking forward to having Thanksgiving with her father and brother for the first time since she was released. So that was a good, exciting moment for her. I know she's just so happy to be in her brother's presence again.

Sonia's kids, they were eight and nine at the time living with their grandmother in Alabama. They continued to be raised by their maternal grandmother and neither spoke to Curtis or Catherine anymore.

And the two, at least in 2015, they said that the two had never apologized to them directly. Growing up, they would tell their friends that their mom was fine and alive and well and living in Florida. And it wasn't until they were a little bit older. It wasn't until like the 10th grade that they finally were like, OK, this is what really happened to my mom. Like.

She's actually not alive and well. Something horrible happened to her. And this is something that my sister and I deal with and lie about all the time because it's just so hard for us to deal with. In the interview, one of them stated, quote, The other said, quote,

I'm not saying abuse doesn't matter because it does. No child should have to go through that. My mother was not the abuser, so she shouldn't have been targeted. Why her? Why my mother? Which, I mean, I feel like you're just going to have to have those. You're going to have those questions forever because sometimes people can't give you their why, especially when you're going through such a heightened moment like this.

I don't think Catherine and them... I don't know. I would kind of at least want a conversation. Being that they had a relationship as kids. You killed my mom. You had options to kill much worse people. And I could have even understood that, but I can't understand this. And

And even if it's a, I can't understand it either. And I hate that it was your mom. And I wish it would have never went down like that. And there's nothing I can do. And that still does something. You know what I'm saying? But yeah, it probably would have brought closure, but at least could have like put a bandaid on at least for a little while. I think it's almost like you're not even, and it takes a real big person after something this big, but like,

You're not even, you know, grown enough to give me an apology to my face. Like, don't tell me you sorry in the videos or whatever. You knew me. There's a lot of shame behind that, I'm sure. And again, like, the only conflict resolution she learned was conflict resolution in prison. And when you got to use that shit in real life, it is completely different. And so...

I definitely think they deserve an apology, but I also see how Catherine and them could be like, I just, I can't give her back. So what can I do? I can, I might as well just exit out of your life. And most people with, when they're in situations, they're either fight or flight. And if you're like me, I'm, I'm more flight. Like I'll just bow out and we can pretend that I don't exist. Which isn't always the best way to go about things because they're sitting there with wounds that can't be healed. Yeah.

Now, the oldest, who was nine when it happened, that's Jessica. She now is a graduate of the University of South Alabama with a degree in criminal justice. And she said that her mom was so pro-education. I don't know if we said this, that Sonia also worked with special needs kids in the school. She was a teacher's aide in the school and she was passionate about her work.

And Sonia was so pro-education that Jessica just knew that her mother would be so, so very proud of her. She now has two kids of her own. And every year on her mother's birthday, she and her children release the balloons to honor her mother and to give her children a sense of connection with their grandmother that they were never able to meet. She said that even though Curtis and Catherine never showed remorse,

She still forgives them. And the oldest and the oldest, Jessica, she just wishes that DCFS could have done more. They should have done more. The younger daughter, the younger daughter, she visits Sonia's grave often. And she just loves to listen to Sonia's favorite music and just have those small memories to really connect with her mother. All right, y'all. Wow, that was sad.

All right, y'all, it's time for... Well, I'm not Black. I'm OG. I didn't do it, but if I did, this is how I would have got away with it. I ain't do it, but if I did, I would have... I just wish that lawyer would have pried in a little bit more, but I also think they probably had a public defense attorney

They didn't have the money or the resources to go back and corroborate and research these kids' cases to make sure that they had therapists that could help talk them through this entire situation. I just feel like there was so much more that could have been done to unearth the real reason behind them shooting Sonia and that they would have been able to just...

At least give Sonia's family a sense of why. And sitting there with that why is going to eat you up forever. And the fact that all of this about the abuse came out after they were sentenced and after they were put in prison, I can understand why Sonia's family could be like, you know, too little, too late.

They're just kids, though. They're just kids. They're just kids. And I really think that their plan was to do like an Ed Kemper. When Ed Kemper killed his grandparents, his first of many killings, he killed his grandmother in prison.

the house and then waited outside with the shotgun to kill his grandfather because he said he didn't want his grandfather to see his grandmother dead. And I feel like they had a similar plan, like, okay, we're going to get her and we're going to wait. And as soon as they come in, we're going to get them because there's only two bullets left. However, I think when Curtis had that breakdown, Catherine had to be like, oh, okay, we got to figure out how to get out of this situation now because you can't handle this. Like I thought you could. Yeah. Yeah.

I ain't do it, but if I did for their mom, girl...

I mean, when were you going to go back into, when were you going to go back to custody court with all these defects, you know, cases that have been open and shut? When were you going to make sure that you could protect your children? And see, she had that nice, I can just forget about my kids and forget about my Black man, and I can go back to my white family and be taken care of. So you decided you wanted to forget all about your kids, and you left them in the hands of abusers. And then when you knew that they were being abused...

You just, you said something, but you ain't, I don't, you ain't fight for them. You ain't fight for them like you should have. And they were let down not only by their dad, but they were let down by you. And I feel like they expected to be let down by you more than they expected to be let down by their dad. But both of them failed them. But that mama, like, I really got problems with it. And I just feel like it's very...

white woman of her to be like, oh, I can just drop my problems off and whoo, I don't have those niggers anymore. Thank you so much, white family. You can accept me again. No, I didn't do it. But if I did, I would have just left Sonia out of it. Yeah, I do it. But if I did, maybe only one needed to do it. I mean, but I guess I get going through it together.

She was probably like, I'm the oldest. I should do it. And he was probably like, but I'm the boy. I should do it. I ain't do it. But if I did, I'd have told the truth. I would have told the truth. But again, they're being threatened at home. They don't, they don't. They didn't realize the gravity. They did not realize the gravity. They thought that if they went ahead and did to them. Listen, listen. I don't know if somebody did. Like, check this out. You aren't going home.

You want to be here until you're 30 years old. This is not time out. This is prison. They have been in situations before where somebody decided they wanted to listen and they were threatened to tell a lie. And if they told the lie, they were able to go back home and they were just, I feel like that fear was almost ingrained in them. That sometimes I know people that they're like, you know, yeah, I need to go to therapy, but I'm not even in the position that I can hear anything that therapists need to say.

And I feel like they were in that similar position, like, yeah, we know that this is bad, but we know that our daddy might kill us or our daddy might leave us in a room with that dude. And to them at the time, they thought that, okay, we just need to get out of this situation. We just need to get back home. And I don't think they really realized what that was. Curtis Jr. definitely didn't realize what that was. I ain't do it, but if I did, why y'all run straight to a friend's house? That's kid shit.

They ran to a friend's house, told them what happened. It was like, oh, that's a bad idea, and ran to the woods. Wouldn't have told nobody what happened. I definitely would have left Sonia out of it. They could have waited until Sonia was out of the house and figured something out. Yeah. There's no way that Sonia was in that house 24-7. Even though, you know, Sonia works during school hours and they have to go to school, there's no way that Sonia was in that house 24-7. They could have figured out a way to do it without Sonia. It's time...

for some reviews. You can leave us a review on a multitude of places. You can leave us a review, well, a multitude, only two places. You can leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or on Amazon.com.

which I'm going to read one from. I just didn't pull it up. Yeah, sure. This one says, ah, best true crime podcast. I love true crime and this scratched an itch I didn't know I had. I love hearing these two amazing women talk about sisters who kill. I love that I'm not black, I'm OJ. I tell everyone in my predominantly white city all about it. Love that. This one says, a crime TV lover OMG from Brace Face Maddie.

Brace Face Maddie says, I sit home and watch these stories all day when I'm off. Now I get to listen at my job. Love, love, love. Everybody says they be listening. Y'all don't be working. Y'all don't be working. Y'all just be listening to us at work. Y'all can do both. I definitely listen to podcasts while I'm working out. I listen to podcasts when I'm working out way more than I listen to music. I just split my time. All right. That's the end. That's

That's really the end of the show. And that's the end of the show. If you want to keep up with us, if you want to email us, if you want to say hi, give case suggestions, tell us all the ways you don't like us, you can email us at sisterswhokillpodcast at gmail.com. Of course, you can leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and on Amazon Podcasts. Please leave us a nice review. If you don't like us, either don't say anything or email us, or you can join the discussion group and say it there.

In the discussion group, you have to answer all the questions to get in or I literally won't let you in. You can also find us on Twitter at Sisters Who Kill, on Instagram at Sisters Who Kill Pod, on TikTok at Sisters Who Kill Podcast. And if you want to leave us a review, I mean, if you want to leave us your very own, I didn't do it, but if I did, this is how I would have got away with it. You can do that on anchor.fm and you might hear your voice on the show. Anything else, friend? Talk to us. We talk back.

All right, y'all, it is time for your I didn't do it, but if I did, this is how I would have got away with it.