BONUS: WarGaming with Matthew Broderick & John Badham
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For 25 years, Brightview Senior Living Associates have been committed to creating a vibrant culture and delivering exceptional services, making Brightview a great place to work and live. If you're looking for a rewarding opportunity to serve your local community and grow, we want you to join our team. Brightview Senior Living is growing and actively seeking vibrant associates to join our community teams, including directors, healthcare, activities, hospitality, and dining. Apply today at careers.brightviewseniorliving.com. Equal employment opportunities.

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The fall season. We don't have to let it happen yet because summer doesn't stop in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. You can still get out and enjoy 60 miles of beaches, eat in the South's newest foodie haven with over 2,000 restaurants, and have endless fun at hundreds of attractions. Hold on to that sweet summer feeling a little longer at the beach. Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. Plan your trip at visitmyrtlebeach.com. That's visitmyrtlebeach.com.

Hey, Snafu listeners. This is your host, Ed Helms. I'm back in your feed for a bonus episode of Snafu. Able Archer, at the very heart of it, is a story about the nuclear conundrum, how the arms race left us with no winning options and an unacceptable margin for error.

And no one summed this up better than the movie War Games. - The only winning move is not to play. - You may recall back in previous episodes, we had great conversations with the movie's star and national treasure, Matthew Broderick, as well as its director, John Battam. Those interviews were so fun and cool, but we just couldn't include all of it in those earlier episodes. So as a little treat, here's a bonus episode where we dive a little deeper

into all things War Games.

So what was just like a normal day in the life of Matthew Broderick around 1982, 83? Well, let's see. 82, I would be graduating high school. Which was in New York City? Yes. And I was very happy to be done with that. And I didn't want to go right to college. I remember going to a college counselor at school who was supposed to tell you what schools you should apply to, you know, when you're a junior or whatever. And...

I remember she kept mentioning colleges that I had never heard of. So that was a bad sign. Your guidance counselor didn't believe in you, is what you're saying. No, I left the meeting less than, I was not, I thought to myself, I'm going to have to find something else. Because nothing that she mentioned, not only were they in schools that I had heard of, but none of them specialized in anything that I was at all good at.

So I was taking a year to kind of see if I could, you know, get a job or something acting. And that's, I knew that's what I wanted to do, but I had no idea if I would, you know, be somebody who could do that. But so, so my memory of that time is, is, is trying to basically become an actor. What was the lead up to the sort of war games opportunity? Well, I started in high school doing a bunch of plays and I felt I was good at it.

Now, why I felt that, I don't know. But I mean, I was better at that than at many of my other endeavors in high school. I'll put it that way. Same here. Yeah. I get it. It wasn't that I was good at it. It was that I wasn't as bad at that as I was at Algebra 2. There was nothing else to go after. That's the truth. And...

I went to HB Studio, which was in the village. It still is, I think. And I took classes. Sure. And then my first girlfriend. And so I had a kind of a great summer, as I remember. I auditioned for everything. And, you know, there was this movie called The Genius that I auditioned for.

That it wouldn't let me read the script, but it was a, you know, a boy and a computer. And then I somehow got a callback and another callback. And then I read for the new casting director. And then maybe even a third casting director. The Genius became War Games, by the way. This was its original title. Oh, okay. Yeah. And then somehow...

I got a play in New York, which was a very successful play. And suddenly everything changed. Then it was like, oh, he's the guy from that play. And I got a Neil Simon movie out of that. So while I was shooting the Neil Simon movie, they wanted me to read again for War Games. Yeah.

And I had now read for it, I don't know, a million times. And had you already read for the director at the time was Martin Brest? Martin Brest, yes. And you'd already read for him? I had. So my dad, who was an actor, said, ask the director, Herbert Ross, of the Neil Simon movie, ask.

Ask if they can see some dailies. So I somehow had the nerve to ask my agent and Herbert Ross, who was directing the Neil Simon movie, was like, sure, absolutely. And he ran, he picked out some nice scenes of mine and showed it to Marty Brest. You know, they screened it in those days. It wasn't like, you know, click on it. It was, they came and watched it at, you know.

you know, the studio. Yeah. That's really cool. He really believed in you. And made the effort, you know, and so you need all that. Yeah. That's really cool. Yeah. And so, so finally you get the part. Had you read the full script at this point or were you just reading sides? Did you know a lot about what the movie was? Around that time, I think I finally was allowed to read the whole thing. It was really a very fun read, you know, it was a

You just really wanted to know how it was going to end up. It wasn't the most intense acting part or something, but I just thought, this is a thriller. I loved the story.

You know, my father was dying and actually died during it. Wow. Yeah. So I don't think of that movie without that. Sure. To tell you the truth. It's a little almost like a surreal memory to me because I was on the one hand so...

pleased with myself and, and, you know, excited about what had happened to me. And, and also at the same time, the absolute opposite. And you guys were close, very close. And, uh, you know, he'd been sick for, I knew that it was coming. It wasn't like that, but you know, there's no way to not, uh, you know, he died during it and I was shooting at one or two days later, I think. Wow. You know, I didn't really want anybody to say, how are you or anything. And they, and they didn't, you know, and, uh,

We went on with it. I'm very glad I had it. It probably saved my life. It's so fascinating. I was shooting The Office when my dad passed. Oh, really? And went back, and it was the same thing. I was so grateful to have that. Something to put your mind on for a while, right? Yeah. And so all the excitement of this first film

experience, he must have been so proud that you got this opportunity. He was, definitely. So then even the release of the movie is so bittersweet. Yeah. His not being there. Yeah, definitely. You know, but I like to think he was glad to see that he had, that he left while I had some hope of a career. Sure. Or, you know, making a living. Yeah. And truthfully, it was such a break from that

I didn't feel it at work. You know, I just felt the movie. So I, you know, I threw myself into it and I loved the story, you know? Yeah, it really is. It's like kind of a perfect screenplay as a thriller.

with comedic elements. And there's never a wasted scene or a dull moment. Did it change a lot from those early drafts to what it eventually was? It did. I mean, are you talking to John Badham too? In the summer of 1982, I get a call from my agent at the time

Lee Rosenberg, who said, "There's this project over at United Artists that they're in trouble with the director, and they wonder if you would take a look at it. And I'm recommending that you don't take a look at it, because if they're in trouble with the director, that means the whole project is troubled, so you better stay away from it. But I have to make the call and tell you about it."

And I replied to him, I said, "But Lee, what if the script is any good?" So we read it and I'm going, "Oh my God, I am so lucky to be reading this script. This script is wonderful." I told that to Leonard and I said, "Let me think about it and I'll get back to you." He said, "Well, we're shooting every day, so you better be fast."

about this. So I started driving home and I got about three blocks from MGM and I stomped on the brakes. Now this is before cell phones and I had to find a phone booth and I said, Leonard, I know what it is. These actors, these characters aren't having any fun. The scene that you showed me

was Matthew Broderick showing Ally Sheedy how he could change her grades at school on the school computer. These actors are playing it like they're going to blow up the White House. And instead, if I could change a girl's grades at school,

in my high school, I would be peeing in my pants with excitement. This would be the most fun thing. I would just be so thrilled and scared and excited about it. I said, "I think that's where the director's gone off track." I mean, he was on schedule, and from what I could understand, everything had been beautifully prepared. But suddenly they were getting a very dark film,

So I said, well, if I come on, that's what I would do. I would make those alterations, make it funny. So they said, well, when can you start? I couldn't believe I'd gotten the job. And then the director got fired. So I was pretty sure I was out, too, by the way. Right, sure. There's no way a director gets fired and the lead actor isn't like, oh.

I probably wasn't doing the right thing either. So wait a minute. They're throwing out two weeks of work I just did. That's interesting. And, you know, John Battam came and basically fired absolutely everybody, but kept me and Ali Pshidi and one or two others. But he was, our first meeting with John Battam, he was like, I'm going to keep both of you.

Well, that was a good choice, but I also wanted the ability to replace anybody that I thought maybe was not cast as best they could be. So we made a couple of changes in the secondary cast. Our general of Norad, we recast him and one or two other characters. But Ali Sheedy and Matthew Broderick were wonderful. I mean, they were...

terrific. For example, the scene where Matthew takes her into his bedroom and shows her how he can change the grade, we decided that we needed to reshoot that because, as we said earlier, they were not having any fun. And I knew that the scene needed to be much, much better than what had been originally shot, not just a little bit better. And so we did a

few takes and they were stiff as boards. These two poor actors were so scared that they too were gonna, you know, be axed out of the movie and get fired. Were stiff as they could be and so I'm starting to try to loosen them up to entertain them. I'm running in, I'm making bad dad jokes, which is the only kind of jokes I know how to make and being silly

And after about nine or ten takes, I called a halt to everything. And I said, okay, all right, we're going to take a little bit of a break here for a minute. And Matthew and Allie, you come with me. And I took them outside the stage at MGM, which is a wonderful big old movie lot.

And I said, "What we're going to do here is we're going to run around, have a race around the soundstage, the outside, and the last person back has to sing a song in front of the crew." And they went, "What?" I said, "Yeah, here we go. Okay, let's go." And we ran and ran and ran and ran. And of course, I was the last person back.

I was a good 20 years older than them. And so now I had to sing a song in front of the crew, which was the dumbest song I could think of, which was something called "The Happy Wanderer," about a guy who's wandering through the Alps and going, ♪ Val de li, val de ra, val de ra ♪ Okay, okay, we got through that. Okay, let's go for a take. - Are those your grades? - Yeah.

I don't think that I deserved it, do you? You can't do that. Already done. That was the one that we printed. Just, you know, you do what you can to loosen people up and get them there and to let them know that it's okay to have fun. And we're not curing cancer here. We're just making a movie. The first couple of days shooting with John Badham, I was like, he's so different than Martin Bress, too. Uh-huh. Martin Bress was very...

method-y and actor-y, you know, and you should feel a certain way and get into it. And so now I'm doing a scene and I finish the scene, you know, doing something on the computer and I hear a voice from behind the camera. John Badham says, and smile, smile, will you smile?

Like he was telling me what face to make. And you're like, that's not acting. I was like, wow. He just wanted to smile? Martin Bress never did that. But sure enough, I smiled. You know, I did everything. And thank God he kept me. He kept me around. That's so funny. That actually raises an interesting question.

separate from all this. Do you like a director who is very literal like that? Or do you prefer someone who's a little more kind of like in the emotion of it and in the sort of like... Yeah. Do you have a strong preference? Well, you know, my preference is somebody who's like

I can understand and who I think is good. I don't know how to, but like, I don't mind people who, I know you're not supposed to say smile, but if it's, if it's somebody good and as John Badham is and, and,

In a way, they might as well just say it, because I see directors sometimes bend over. I'm sure you feel this way, too. Of course. You can see their brain trying to say, I know I'm not supposed to tell them to be angry or happy. Or give them a line reading or any of that. Exactly. How many words can I use to make a line read? I'm like, just tell me the line read. Yeah, exactly. I'm very...

And I tell directors sometimes, like, I can feel you dancing around this. Just tell me what you want. Definitely. I love a mechanical direction. Me too. Like, hold your arm higher. Okay, sure. Yeah. Well, then I can understand what they mean. And then I can turn it into actory terms if I want or not. Right.

Yeah. And see, I even sometimes, and this doesn't come off so well, but I'll sometimes tell a director who's really hemming and hawing, why don't you show me, which I like to make them feel horrible and uncomfortable, and act this out for me. You play me. Yeah. I'll read the other part. You show me what you want. If they're being really irritating, I'll do that. That's great. At least I know exactly what they want.

For 25 years, Brightview Senior Living Associates have been committed to creating a vibrant culture and delivering exceptional services, making Brightview a great place to work and live. If you're looking for a rewarding opportunity to serve your local community and grow, we want you to join our team. Brightview Senior Living is growing and actively seeking vibrant associates to join our community teams, including directors, healthcare, activities, hospitality, and dining. Apply today at careers.brightviewseniorliving.com. Equal employment opportunities.

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All right. So the movie production is starting. Now it's you and Ally Sheedy and this incredible cast, Barry Corbin, Dabney Coleman, who I adore. I love Dabney Coleman. Yeah, me too. And Barry Corbin. Yeah. And they're both just, it's like the cowboy and the nerd. And they're just, they're such a perfect conflict. I wouldn't trust this overgrown pile of microchips any further than I can throw it.

And I don't know if you want to trust the safety of our country to some silicone dial. General, nobody is talking about entrusting the safety of the nation to a machine for God's sake. And what's compelling about those two characters is that they really represent two kind of

uh, competing points of view very literally in the story, but I think also kind of culturally, which is, do we trust technology or do we trust gut? Right. And Dabney's Dabney Coleman is saying, let's trust Whopper, the computer to, to, to launch missiles. And Barry Corbin is, you know, chewing his red man, chewing tobacco and saying, uh,

no way, man. Guy can't take the human out of it. You got to trust humans. But they mess up at the beginning, right? That's in the missile silo. Right. The humans mess up in the opening. Yeah. Which is a wild entry to the film. And it sets the stage for mistrusting humans. Put your hand on the key, sir. One. Sir, we are at launch. Turn your key. Sorry. I'm so sorry. Turn your key, sir.

We've had men in these silos since before any of you were watching Howdy Doody. For myself, I sleep pretty well at night knowing those boys are down there. General, we all know they're fine men, but in a nuclear war, we can't afford to have our missiles lying dormant in those silos because those men refuse to turn the keys when the computers tell them to.

Turn your key. Yeah, turn your key, that whole thing. I was watching the movie with my wife a couple of nights ago, and she just goes, man, there were a lot of buttons in the 80s.

It's true. The whole wall is buttons. Yeah. And like everything, it's like, okay, ignite or, you know, switch operation two. Yeah. It's like 30 buttons to do one thing. Yeah. There's some part of our inner child that just wants to click all those fucking buttons. Yeah. Now it's just these damn touchscreens. Yeah.

I have one quibble with the movie that I just have to mention, which is that you're very disappointingly bad at Galaga. I mean, you're okay, but there's not... I understand. I must, in my defense, tell you, they edited it. Yeah, sure. Whatever. There wasn't enough film in the camera if I had played it my best.

Yeah, I guess so. Okay, I'll take your word for it. But I will say, like, to be able to work on a movie where the whole thing is like, you're going to get to play Galaga for free for as long as we're shooting this scene. They gave me a Galaga machine. I'm not kidding. Marty Press was like, you should get good at Galaga. We'll send one over. Oh, wow. So my little apartment in Santa Monica had a Galaga in it. Oh, that's amazing. Which I could, I was so excited by that. Yeah, that's huge. So-

What are some of your memories about culture at that time? You know, in particular, some of the political landscape afoot. Yeah. Reagan as president. Were you feeling any of the Cold War? Well, I think everybody felt it a little. When I remember, you know, Reagan saying he was going to put weapons in space and, you

saying that was going to get everybody killed. That really pissed off the Russians. Yes. So it was scary to read about all these, you know, every time we would add a missile system, they would add one and vice versa. And it was...

You could read articles that would say there's absolutely no way this can end except for everybody being blown up pretty soon. Yeah, mutual destruction. Yeah, mad, right? I had a book with pictures of it called Mad, I think. Mutual assured destruction. And that book proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that we had about five years as a planet. Ever since the 1960s,

I would say even maybe the late 1950s, we were seeing this constant buildup of nuclear facilities and nuclear warheads. I remember I was in grammar school after World War II, and we had constant drills for what would happen with nuclear explosions. I'm sure you've heard the phrase "duck and cover."

You know, that we were going to duck under our little third-grader desks, and that was going to save us from the nuclear bomb. And you knew that it was going to fly off the handle in some crazy way, but nobody was doing anything about it. And of course, this is before Gorbachev took down the wall and so on. Basically, it was a scary kind of world where often your reaction was...

to, like the ostrich, bury your head in the sand and just hope to hell it went away without blowing up the planet. The military has thought up hundreds of different scenarios of possible ways that things could happen as they're trying to get around this problem of how do you make the right decision? It's just way too complicated a problem for us to be cleanly and easily dealing with.

You know, originally it had an ending where a bomb went off, I believe. Oh, wow. Like, I remember there was some scene where I'm looking in a mirror at the very end. I wake up, I'm home, it's all over, you know? And I get up, I'm brushing my teeth or something, and there's a flash of light and all the skin burns off of my face or something. What? Yep. And then I wake up.

Oh, okay. So it's just a little nightmare that David Lightman had after going through this whole thing. Right, right. Which, you know, wisely, when they edited, they were like, no, it's over in that war room. Yeah. Greetings, Professor Falcon. Hello, Joshua. Strange game. The only winning move is not to play. It was the closest thing to an anti-war message ever.

that we had, because we didn't want to make it a big preachy movie. It was meant to be something that was very entertaining, but that could at the very end zing you with something that you go, oh, yes, yes. We did want it to be a warning.

to some degree. - Yeah. - You know, everybody there was, like everybody else, scared of nuclear war, so. - Yeah, it's such a backdrop for the whole thing. The air you were breathing was fear. - Yes. - Fear of technology, fear of nuclear annihilation, and this movie kind of like really hits both, the technology and the weapons. - Definitely, and now that I think of it, some people were into disarmament and some were not.

So we were, everybody who made that movie, I think was very on the side of disarmament. You know, they wanted, they wanted, uh, Reagan and Gorbachev to make a deal. So if it has a political point of view, I'm sure it's that they, everybody there wanted it to make deals with Russia and not just keep building weapons. Well, it's a great magic trick that way because it's, it's unbelievably entertaining and fun to watch, but it also, uh,

you know, from a sort of like commentary standpoint, allows you to play out the fantasy of nuclear annihilation and hopefully scare you a little bit or scare the political establishment a little bit into doing something. ♪

For 25 years, Brightview Senior Living Associates have been committed to creating a vibrant culture and delivering exceptional services, making Brightview a great place to work and live. If you're looking for a rewarding opportunity to serve your local community and grow, we want you to join our team. Brightview Senior Living is growing and actively seeking vibrant associates to join our community teams, including directors, healthcare, activities, hospitality, and dining. Apply today at careers.brightviewseniorliving.com. Equal employment opportunities.

Text BVJOBS to 97211 to apply. Hey, this is Jodi Sweetin from the podcast How Rude, Tanneritos. As a nostalgic voice from your past, I'm here to remind you that amongst the stressful and chaotic existence we live in 2024, you deserve to get away. It's time for a vacation, no matter when you're hearing this. And let me tell you how you'll get there.

The 2024 Hyundai Santa Fe. Want to bring the family to the mountains with the Santa Fe's available H-Track all-wheel drive? Well, it's got standard third-row seating and available dual wireless charging pads for the kids who just want to stare at their phone and not talk to you. You know what I mean. Visit HyundaiUSA.com or call 562-314-4603 for more details. Hyundai. There's joy in every journey.

The fall is creeping up on us, but we don't have to give in just yet because summer doesn't stop in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. You can still get out and enjoy 60 miles of beaches, eat in the South's newest foodie haven with over 2,000 restaurants, and have endless fun at hundreds of attractions. Hold on to that sweet summer feeling a little longer at the beach. Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. Plan your trip at visitmyrtlebeach.com. That's visitmyrtlebeach.com.

When the film actually came out, it definitely had an influence. And thank goodness it was a big success at the box office. So we knew that our film was being seen by many, many people. And especially by an audience of young people who could identify with Matthew and Allie. Remember, the time that we're in,

Nobody understood computers very much, certainly adults did not. The kids were understanding it and were getting it right away, and the adults were thinking, "Well, that's stupid. No little kid could do this." There were many articles in different newspapers that said, "This is complete baloney. None of this could possibly happen. This is all ridiculous.

That was part of the drama and the humor of it, that it was not some evil Russian or evil Germanic force, God knows what it could be, but it was just a little kid being playful and playing without motored equipment. Well, the wonderful thing about movies is you can often look beyond what's possible.

And sometimes you can be spot on with it and seeing things that could happen in the future. Well, it wasn't more than a couple of weeks after the movie that was released, suddenly from, I believe, Minnesota, three guys broke into NORAD.

or they broke into the Defense Department's computer. Our whole defense system was much more fragile and much more vulnerable than anybody wanted to announce. And here are young kids, maybe inspired by our movie, or just maybe because they were out there all along, that they were actually, you know, breaking into places. When Reagan came into office,

We had made the film, and one of the first things that he happened to do when he was in office was to run war games for he and Nancy at the White House one night. And he started talking about how we could fight these nuclear problems with our Star Wars defense.

And he started talking about that and they said, "Well, this is ridiculous. We don't have technology that would be anything like that." He said, "Yes, we do. Nancy and I saw this film the other night, War Games, and they have that kind of technology." Well, Mommy and I were watching this movie, War Games, and we were thinking that we could do the same thing. Mommy was very happy about seeing it.

Are you aware that Ronald Reagan screened the movie right after it came out? No. This is an amazing story. The New York Times did a piece on this a bunch of years ago. Ronald Reagan watched it, just kicking back with Nancy at Camp David, just watching a pop culture movie. It rattled him so badly that he called in his defense establishment, all the bigwigs, and

into the White House. And he said, is this possible? Is it possible that some rogue kid could, or worse, like a Russian actor, penetrate our computer systems and our missile systems and so forth?

And the takeaway was, yeah, it's a little more possible than any of us would like to admit. And so that precipitated some of the very first cybersecurity policy. Wow. You know, from a national defense standpoint. Wow, that's very, yeah. You're welcome, everybody. You're right. Thank you. Thank you, Matthew. Thank you.

Special thanks to Matthew Broderick and John Badham for joining us to talk all things war games. Next week, we have another bonus episode where I interview a Cold War KGB agent. So check back for that. You're not going to want to miss it.

This

This bonus episode was edited by Carl Nellis and Dustin Brown. Our senior editor is Jeffrey Lewis. Olivia Canney is our production assistant. Our creative executive is Brett Harris. Engineering and technical direction by Nick Dooley. Special thanks to Allison Cohen and Matt Azenstadt.

For 25 years, Brightview Senior Living Associates have been committed to creating a vibrant culture and delivering exceptional services, making Brightview a great place to work and live. If you're looking for a rewarding opportunity to serve your local community and grow, we want you to join our team. Brightview Senior Living is growing and actively seeking vibrant associates to join our community teams, including directors, healthcare, activities, hospitality, and dining. Apply today at careers.brightviewseniorliving.com. Equal employment opportunities.

Text BVJOBS to 97211 to apply. This episode is brought to you by FX is the Old Man. The hit show returns starring Jeff Bridges and John Lithgow. The former CIA agent sets off on his most important mission to date, to recover his daughter after she's kidnapped. The stakes get higher and more secrets are uncovered. FX is the Old Man premieres September 12th on FX. Stream on Hulu.